The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: INVAR on September 20, 2018, 05:53:04 am
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As everyone knows I am no Trump fan. However, what is now happening on an almost daily basis with increasing outrageousness is our witness to the very real attempts being made to completely circumvent and counter the Executive.
No, this doesn't toss me onto Trump's support train because I am not yet convinced he is not a player in this himself, either he is or he is so helplessly over his head and outmatched that he continues to hire "Only the Best People" to undermine and sabotage himself from within, or he is complicit in some fashion.
The tracks for where we are have been laid for decades with the full and express oversight of the Republican party itself, and so now the Left thinks it must now play for all the marbles, incite a hot war on the streets and get all the Alphabets to do what they can to undermine a sitting president while their lackeys make overtures about killing, assassination and revolution.
If nothing is done about this - I agree with the comments - we are OFFICIALLY a Banana Republic and the rule of law is truly dead.
Every man for themselves.
This Is An Actual COUP
(https://imgur.com/SqyI9dX.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/hnDW6Lm.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/lEwSkDs.jpg)
The above letter, from The Conservative Treehouse/The Last Refuge (https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/09/18/corruption-junction-desperation-amid-democrat-members-of-the-intelligence-gang-of-eight/) , is not a joke, or parody. It's real. It's also jaw-dropping.
...The mere act of writing that letter makes the four signatories culpable, prima facie, of conspiring with agents of the executive branch to withhold information from the White House contrary to US law, and for the co-conspirators to deliberately fail to follow the express written instructions of the Chief Executive, individually and collectively.
...The president, right this minute, could direct the AG to arrest all seven for seditious conspiracy, and have them thrown in jail, and be well within the boundaries of settled black-letter federal law. Right. This. Minute.
...The two most senior Democrats in each house, together with the opposition ranking members on the congressional select intelligence committees, have admitted in writing to have previously conspired with the current head of FBI, the deputy AG, and the DNI, to disobey the orders of the Chief Executive, withhold information he directed them to provide, and thus violate actual federal law.
That's a coup, boys and girls.
Not "feels like one".
Not a "soft" coup.
This is an actual conspiracy to usurp the President of the United States.
And these four assholes signed their names to it.
So, what is to be done about that?
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This is a Declaration of Independence of a kind. This is the Deep State declaring themselves to be a sovereign entity not subject to the President of the United States, the Constitution, or U.S. Law.
They are declaring themselves to be their own sovereign Rule, their own Law, which is outside the jurisdiction of the United States.
As far as directing the AG (Jeff Sessions) to do anything about it, this is an absurd idea. I doubt Jeff is part of the coup. He is more like Sergeant Schultz. He is not a part of anything at all. He doesn't even show up to work for days/weeks at a time. And he is certainly NEVER EVER going to do anything about anything. He only wants to duck and hide and run away.
President Trump once described Sessions as, 'he is scared of his own shadow'. This is the best description of this infantile coward that I have heard so far. All Sessions needs is a diaper change and his 'binky', and he is squared away for the whole day.
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They must be pretty afraid of what these classified documents contain.
Conspiracy to get Hillary elected at the highest levels of government?
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What a joke. That is not an actual coup.
An actual coup would be the military overthrowing Trump.
Lately, conservatives are just as dumb as liberals, if not even dumber.
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"The above letter, from The Conservative Treehouse/The Last Refuge , is not a joke, or parody. It's real. "
That would be a first for the cth. Might wanna check with gwp for confirmation.
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What a joke. That is not an actual coup.
An actual coup would be the military overthrowing Trump.
Lately, conservatives are just as dumb as liberals, if not even dumber.
Maybe we can call it a 'velvet coup' then.
As it seems Americans are not interested in actually fighting for anything, unless of course it's for free shit and forcing Christians to bake wedding caked for homos.
"The above letter, from The Conservative Treehouse/The Last Refuge , is not a joke, or parody. It's real. "
That would be a first for the cth. Might wanna check with gwp for confirmation.
That's interesting. At one time not long ago, TCH and Breitbart were considered the ultimate sources of truth and righteous opinion by the Trump Faithful.
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I've seen the letter in other places. I noticed it only has Rat signatures. Where are the other four?
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I've seen the letter in other places. I noticed it only has Rat signatures. Where are the other four?
Does it say there are eight?
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Does it say there are eight?
The letter refers to a "Gang of Eight." Bottom of page 2.
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The letter refers to a "Gang of Eight." Bottom of page 2.
Thanks and good catch.
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The letter refers to a "Gang of Eight." Bottom of page 2.
So who are the other four members of this new 'Gang of Eight' cabal?
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The letter refers to a "Gang of Eight." Bottom of page 2.
That's a reference to the senior leadership and intelligence committee heads in both houses. Obviously, the Republicans who make up that "Gang of Eight" don't agree with the letter.
The funniest part about this whole thing is that a media that has actively sought and promoted leaks of classified information from the government in the interest of "getting the truth out" is now terrified that is exactly what is going to happen. When is the last time the media went nuts about having more information made public?
"Democracy Dies in Darkness" -- unless that darkness is concealing wrongdoing by progressives. Then it is essential to democracy.
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That's a reference to the senior leadership and intelligence committee heads in both houses. Obviously, the Republicans who make up that "Gang of Eight" don't agree with the letter.
The funniest part about this whole thing is that a media that has actively sought and promoted leaks of classified information from the government in the interest of "getting the truth out" is now terrified that is exactly what is going to happen. When is the last time the media went nuts about having more information made public?
"Democracy Dies in Darkness" -- unless that darkness is concealing wrongdoing by progressives. Then it is essential to democracy.
@Cyber Liberty
See the above quoted. That's right and only the democrat members signed the letter.
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@Cyber Liberty
See the above quoted. That's right and only the democrat members signed the letter.
So what validity does it have if only half the 'gang' are making those demands?
Or, is it as some are saying, that the 'other' government is asserting it's own authority over that which was duly elected?
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So what validity does it have if only half the 'gang' are making those demands?
Or, is it as some are saying, that the 'other' government is asserting it's own authority over that which was duly elected?
It would have zero validity if all 8 signed IMHO! The Constitution is very clear on who wields executive power.
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So who are the other four members of this new 'Gang of Eight' cabal?
Devin Nunes, Richard Burr, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, according to Wiki.
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So what validity does it have if only half the 'gang' are making those demands?
Or, is it as some are saying, that the 'other' government is asserting it's own authority over that which was duly elected?
No validity at all. It's not a simple majority of the eight, only the Rats. Yet another blindly useless, partisan piece of toilet paper.
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It would have zero validity if all 8 signed IMHO! The Constitution is very clear on who wields executive power.
Yup! What you said there. It's merely an "advisory group."
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So what validity does it have if only half the 'gang' are making those demands?
Zero. Which is legally the same validity it would have even if all 8 had signed it.
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Zero. Which is legally the same validity it would have even if all 8 had signed it.
So who besides us 'little people' here at TBR are pointing that fact out?
Any word from McConnell, Ryan and Burr ... Bueller? Anyone?
Just noting that silence in the face of such obvious efforts of subterfuge and lawlessness is complicity in my estimation.
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They must be pretty afraid of what these classified documents contain.
Conspiracy to get Hillary elected at the highest levels of government?
So, at long last, @INVAR has discovered the real enemy. Although he somehow found it in his heart to throw some unearned blame Trump's way.
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The sleeper awakes...20 months into this incremental coup and even the NT crowd is, at last, showing some signs of being "woke". I say this not to insult, nor as an I told you so, but as one of many who've been serving in the trenches of what we believe is the 1776 of our current time. We need your help in this fight, regardless of whatever stupid thing the President may have said in the past about not wanting such help, or we will surely lose it.
Liberals are rarely drawn to military service, nor to law enforcement or first responder work...for cultural and philosophical reasons...they presume instead to occupy our schools, our courts (as lawyers AND as judges) bureaucratic offices and media positions. In these fields, they are predominant and broadly pervasive at all levels. From these perches, they propagandize and indoctrinate our children on our dime...through dominance in the media, they do the same to adults across the nation. Their optimal tool is emphasis...they emphasize information that forwards their agenda and minimize that which does not...an often subtle but intensely effective methodology.
By controlling information, the courts, and the bureaucracy...they are positioned to engage in what Invar calls a "soft coup", the overthrow of any elected government or official who counters the Left's narrative or threatens its hegemony over the three pillars on which they rest their power...Education, the Courts, and the Bureaucracy. This triumvirate is crafty, it will tolerate ineffective "go along" opposition...or rather...they elevate it as a means of diluting true opposition to their rule. This is why the Left glorifies the McCain's, Flake's, Bush's and Romney's of the Right...it gives a facade of opposition without threatening the liberal triad.
And then along comes Trump. Bullish, boorish...egocentric and narcissistic...likely oblivious to the very real construct of the Liberal Triad. But like a pampered Bull Elephant in a house of delicate Origami...this boor is, perhaps unwittingly in many cases, overturning the foundations of the Triad. And this, they will not tolerate.
In threatening to steal the upper echelons of the court, Trump has now struck at the true heart of this beast...and by his uncouth candor and yes, his loud mouthed blundering and tweeting...he threatens the medias dominance and control of speech and narrative. And that will not be allowed.
Worse, if Trump can expose the plot to frame him and spy on him prior to the election, the Triad's most sacred cow...the bureaucracy leg of their power Triad...comes under threat. Correspondingly, the last shred of legitimacy of the Left's media will also be devastated. And, again, this they will not allow.
And so the coup. Not the traditional 3rd world coup nor the righteous indignation of the original American Revolution...no the Left's abhorrence of soldiers, police, honor and base concepts of free speech and markets...precludes a hard coup. But in a modern age, the Triad of power built by the Left is well suited to achieve the this kind of "soft coup"...the removal of a leader they fear and oppose by means other than direct force.
For the Left, at the deep philosophical level, this is not about Trump hate...that is simply a shallow tool they use to manipulate their blithely ignorant street minions like Antifa. In fact, Trump himself is irrelevant to the leaders of the Left. What they are seeking to overthrow is the ability of ANYONE on the right to threaten the 3 pillars of their power...that control over education, media and jurisprudence.
So anyone on the right who is NeverTrump...be that a principled disagreement on policy or a simple loathing of the man's personality...it is time to understand that this coup is not aimed at President Trump. It is aimed at you and I...at all of us that are fighting for a Republic NOT ruled by bureaucrats, educational 1984-ism, and yellow journalism.
Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight...there are others who oppose the Triad of course...but ONLY Trump is positioned to genuinely fight and win this struggle. For god's sake and our own, stop fighting him and start fighting the metastatic monstrosity that is controlling this nation's core...a Triad of power that is a cancer destroying our vitality, unity and function.
Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me say right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight.
We are all the new Sons of Liberty, and we must emulate their resolve and cooperation to resist.
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That's a reference to the senior leadership and intelligence committee heads in both houses. Obviously, the Republicans who make up that "Gang of Eight" don't agree with the letter.
The funniest part about this whole thing is that a media that has actively sought and promoted leaks of classified information from the government in the interest of "getting the truth out" is now terrified that is exactly what is going to happen. When is the last time the media went nuts about having more information made public?
"Democracy Dies in Darkness" -- unless that darkness is concealing wrongdoing by progressives. Then it is essential to democracy.
I find it highly ironic... that the idiot leftists are all constantly referring to "our democracy" and the dangers that Trump represents to it....
considering that the last thing these commies-in-arms want for America is a democracy. They are hard-core leftist liars.... that are pushing us towards communism via socialism.
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I find it highly ironic... that the idiot leftists are all constantly referring to "our democracy" and the dangers that Trump represents to it....
considering that the last thing these commies-in-arms want for America is a democracy. They are hard-core leftist liars.... that are pushing us towards communism via socialism.
@XenaLee
"Communism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."
Leon Trotsky
We are a Republic!
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The sleeper awakes...20 months into this incremental coup and even the NT crowd is, at last, showing some signs of being "woke". I say this not to insult, nor as an I told you so, but as one of many who've been serving in the trenches of what we believe is the 1776 of our current time. We need your help in this fight, regardless of whatever stupid thing the President may have said in the past about not wanting such help, or we will surely lose it.
Liberals are rarely drawn to military service, nor to law enforcement or first responder work...for cultural and philosophical reasons...they presume instead to occupy our schools, our courts (as lawyers AND as judges) bureaucratic offices and media positions. In these fields, they are predominant and broadly pervasive at all levels. From these perches, they propagandize and indoctrinate our children on our dime...through dominance in the media, they do the same to adults across the nation. Their optimal tool is emphasis...they emphasize information that forwards their agenda and minimize that which does not...an often subtle but intensely effective methodology.
By controlling information, the courts, and the bureaucracy...they are positioned to engage in what Invar calls a "soft coup", the overthrow of any elected government or official who counters the Left's narrative or threatens its hegemony over the three pillars on which they rest their power...Education, the Courts, and the Bureaucracy. This triumvirate is crafty, it will tolerate ineffective "go along" opposition...or rather...they elevate it as a means of diluting true opposition to their rule. This is why the Left glorifies the McCain's, Flake's, Bush's and Romney's of the Right...it gives a facade of opposition without threatening the liberal triad.
And then along comes Trump. Bullish, boorish...egocentric and narcissistic...likely oblivious to the very real construct of the Liberal Triad. But like a pampered Bull Elephant in a house of delicate Origami...this boor is, perhaps unwittingly in many cases, overturning the foundations of the Triad. And this, they will not tolerate.
In stealing the upper echelons of the court, he has now struck at the true heart of this beast...and by his uncouth candor and yes, his loud mouthed blundering and tweeting...he threatens the medias dominance and control of speech and narrative. And that will not be allowed by the Triad.
Worse, if Trump can expose the plot to frame him and spy on him prior to the election, the Triad's most sacred cow...the bureaucracy leg of their power Triad...comes under threat. And, again, this they will not allow.
And so the coup. Not the traditional 3rd world coup nor the righteous indignation of the original American Revolution...no the Left's abhorrence of soldiers, police, honor and base concepts of free speech and markets...precludes a hard coup. But in a modern age, the Triad of power built by the Left is well suited to achieve the this kind of "soft coup"...the removal of a leader they fear and oppose by means other than direct force.
For the Left, at the deep philosophical level, this is not about Trump hate...that is simply a shallow tool they use to manipulate their blithely ignorant street minions like Antifa. In fact, Trump himself is irrelevant to the leaders of the Left. What they are seeking to overthrow is the ability of ANYONE on the right to threaten the 3 pillars of their power...that control over education, media and jurisprudence.
So anyone on the right who is NeverTrump...be that a principled disagreement on policy or a simple loathing of the man's personality...it is time to understand that this coup is not aimed at President Trump. It is aimed at you and I...at all of us that are fighting for a Republic NOT ruled by bureaucrats, educational 1984-ism, and yellow journalism.
Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight...there are others who oppose the Triad of course...but ONLY Trump is positioned to genuinely fight and win this struggle. For god's sake and our own, stop fighting him and start fighting the metastatic monstrosity that is controlling this nation's core...a Triad of power that is a cancer destroying our vitality, unity and function.
Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me so right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight.
Excellent analysis of the current situation.
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@XenaLee
"Communism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."
Leon Trotsky
We are a Republic!
Dammit, Bigun.... I know exactly what we are.... which is actually a Representative Republic.
I'm talking about what the commie left wants, ultimately. And that is NOT a democracy of any kind. It's full-blown communism.
(sheesh)
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Excellent analysis of the current situation.
Yes, it is, particularly this: "Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me so right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight."
What say you, @INVAR?
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So who besides us 'little people' here at TBR are pointing that fact out?
Any word from McConnell, Ryan and Burr ... Bueller? Anyone?
It's been pointed out in a bunch of columns, etc.. I think that the GOP leadership and the Administration are simply ignoring it, just like those agencies will.
Just noting that silence in the face of such obvious efforts of subterfuge and lawlessness is complicity in my estimation.
I think the logic is "this is a dumb, impotent gesture by a group of morons who know full well that they don't have the authority to do this. We're not going to give them attention they don't deserve by responding. We're just proceeding as planned."
You may not think that is the best strategy, but it isn't being complicit giving that they're disregarding the order/request.
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So, at long last, @INVAR has discovered the real enemy. Although he somehow found it in his heart to throw some unearned blame Trump's way.
That is because often I cannot tell the difference between the Trump fanatics and the rabid Lefties all pining for payback and retribution to be visited upon their "enemies" of which I have been declared to be by both camps.
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Dammit, Bigun.... I know exactly what we are.... which is actually a Representative Republic.
I'm talking about what the commie left wants, ultimately. And that is NOT a democracy of any kind. It's full-blown communism.
(sheesh)
@XenaLee
When is the last time you heard a news reader anywhere in this land refer to this country as a Republic? They have been doing their best to turn it into a democracy for an entire century!
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The head of the group that is conducting the coup:
(https://itsjustaboutnick.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/stonecutters.png)
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@Mesaclone Well said, and Amen.
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First, congratulations on a very well written and focused essay @Mesaclone It is truly impressive.
I cringed a little at one quote --- because not only is it incorrect, it's part of the defining blurb on who this President is. I want you, and all others are welcome too, to recognize that Donald J. Trump understood exactly what was going on in Washington -- and there is nothing accidental about Trump fighting these bastards head on. It is not happenstance. It is his plan.
So, I take a little exception to this:
And then along comes Trump. Bullish, boorish...egocentric and narcissistic...likely oblivious to the very real construct of the Liberal Triad. But like a pampered Bull Elephant in a house of delicate Origami...this boor is, perhaps unwittingly in many cases, overturning the foundations of the Triad. And this, they will not tolerate.
This one speech explains why this "pampered Bull Elephant" ran for the office and should convince you that he did so with both eyes open. And this is why we elected him.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ)
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@XenaLee
When is the last time you heard a news reader anywhere in this land refer to this country as a Republic? They have been doing their best to turn it into a democracy for an entire century!
I know. Their ignorance is stunning. But then, they could also be doing it deliberately as part of their 'dumbing down of America'. Can't let the SOS masses catch on to the fact that we're not a mob-rule democracy. That might be dangerous to their agenda.
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Yes, it is, particularly this: "Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me so right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight."
What say you, @INVAR?
Sadly, the Trump fans over the last couple of years have pretty much eradicated any trust that I would have to share a trench of foxhole with them in combat with the Left. The amount of disdain, contempt and ridicule levied at us and our beliefs/principles/ morality by the rabid Trump fanbase has made us clear adversaries. Hell, they call us 'the enemy' and Hillary supporters still to this day. I no longer believe we share the same fundamentals any more as demonstrated on a thread still ongoing here on this board. Therefore I have no real clue what it is that they would be actually fighting for beyond bloodletting vengeance and their own style of collectivist Statism so long as it's THEIR guy doing it. My motivating principles are held in contempt by both the Left and the Trump supporters and I would constantly have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure the long knives are not inserted into my back when sleeping in their camp. So no - I will not jump on the Trump train with them in regards to any action against the Left beyond what we do here on the board. I simply do not trust them enough to do so.
That said, just because there is no trust between us does not mean I do not recognize what the overt Communists and Statists are doing. I do see what they are doing. I just do not trust those that I assumed we were allies with to combat them since the advent of Trump.
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That is because often I cannot tell the difference between the Trump fanatics and the rabid Lefties all pining for payback and retribution to be visited upon their "enemies" of which I have been declared to be by both camps.
A brief glimpse of The Light @INVAR and you willfully turn away.
You simply will not recognize that for every person who would fall into the 'Trump fanatic' category, there are dozens who simply recognize that we are lucky to have Trump right now.
I've tried to talk to you before but you've always deliberately twisted my words.
I was as much of a Trump hater as you during the primaries. But I also saw the real danger we were in. One reason I was a Trump hater was that I didn't believe he could possibly win.
When I woke up with the glorious realization that the evil one (Hillary) had been defeated, it was like I was struck blind on the Road to Damascus.
I was so happy that we'd been saved.
Then and there, I decided to support Trump if he did good things.
And, he has done so many good things.
I won't try to talk you into giving Trump any love but now that you know the face of our real enemy, how about a little support?
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Sadly, the Trump fans over the last couple of years have pretty much eradicated any trust that I would have to share a trench of foxhole with them in combat with the Left. The amount of disdain, contempt and ridicule levied at us and our beliefs/principles/ morality by the rabid Trump fanbase has made us clear adversaries. Hell, they call us 'the enemy' and Hillary supporters still to this day. I no longer believe we share the same fundamentals any more as demonstrated on a thread still ongoing here on this board. Therefore I have no real clue what it is that they would be actually fighting for beyond bloodletting vengeance and their own style of collectivist Statism so long as it's THEIR guy doing it. My motivating principles are held in contempt by both the Left and the Trump supporters and I would constantly have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure the long knives are not inserted into my back when sleeping in their camp. So no - I will not jump on the Trump train with them in regards to any action against the Left beyond what we do here on the board. I simply do not trust them enough to do so.
That said, just because there is no trust between us does not mean I do not recognize what the overt Communists and Statists are doing. I do see what they are doing. I just do not trust those that I assumed we were allies with to combat them since the advent of Trump.
So, for you, INVAR, ego trumps patriotism?
I agree with Mesaclone - the left now represents an existential threat. Disunity among the various factions of conservatives harms us all, but more to the point, it harms the nation.
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Sadly, the Trump fans over the last couple of years have pretty much eradicated any trust that I would have to share a trench of foxhole with them in combat with the Left. The amount of disdain, contempt and ridicule levied at us and our beliefs/principles/ morality by the rabid Trump fanbase has made us clear adversaries. Hell, they call us 'the enemy' and Hillary supporters still to this day. I no longer believe we share the same fundamentals any more as demonstrated on a thread still ongoing here on this board. Therefore I have no real clue what it is that they would be actually fighting for beyond bloodletting vengeance and their own style of collectivist Statism so long as it's THEIR guy doing it. My motivating principles are held in contempt by both the Left and the Trump supporters and I would constantly have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure the long knives are not inserted into my back when sleeping in their camp. So no - I will not jump on the Trump train with them in regards to any action against the Left beyond what we do here on the board. I simply do not trust them enough to do so.
That said, just because there is no trust between us does not mean I do not recognize what the overt Communists and Statists are doing. I do see what they are doing. I just do not trust those that I assumed we were allies with to combat them since the advent of Trump.
Yeah.... well...... I don't give a tinker's damn about any of that. What "they" said and/or think means nothing to me. What matters NOW is what is necessary to at least try to save the nation from the likes of the usual suspect Democrats, and their leftist mentors and funders like Soros. I will do what I can and know that I at least tried via my vote against the radical left. Anything less and I couldn't face the reality... or myself in the mirror... later on if/when things fall apart. JS.......
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I know. Their ignorance is stunning. But then, they could also be doing it deliberately as part of their 'dumbing down of America'. Can't let the SOS masses catch on to the fact that we're not a mob-rule democracy. That might be dangerous to their agenda.
It's NOT ignorance my dear! It's agitprop! Repeat a lie often enough...
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@XenaLee
When is the last time you heard a news reader anywhere in this land refer to this country as a Republic? They have been doing their best to turn it into a democracy for an entire century!
In the real world, this is simply semantics. Most people think we are a democracy without understanding the difference between a democracy and a Republic. I don't think it's worth worrying about.
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Sadly, the Trump fans over the last couple of years have pretty much eradicated any trust that I would have to share a trench of foxhole with them in combat with the Left. The amount of disdain, contempt and ridicule levied at us and our beliefs/principles/ morality by the rabid Trump fanbase has made us clear adversaries. Hell, they call us 'the enemy' and Hillary supporters still to this day. I no longer believe we share the same fundamentals any more as demonstrated on a thread still ongoing here on this board. Therefore I have no real clue what it is that they would be actually fighting for beyond bloodletting vengeance and their own style of collectivist Statism so long as it's THEIR guy doing it. My motivating principles are held in contempt by both the Left and the Trump supporters and I would constantly have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure the long knives are not inserted into my back when sleeping in their camp. So no - I will not jump on the Trump train with them in regards to any action against the Left beyond what we do here on the board. I simply do not trust them enough to do so.
That said, just because there is no trust between us does not mean I do not recognize what the overt Communists and Statists are doing. I do see what they are doing. I just do not trust those that I assumed we were allies with to combat them since the advent of Trump.
That's about what I expected, but find it disappointing all the same.
Seven times seventy.
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In the real world, this is simply semantics. Most people think we are a democracy without understanding the difference between a democracy and a Republic. I don't think it's worth worrying about.
And I think you are VERY wrong @Emjay
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In the real world, this is simply semantics. Most people think we are a democracy without understanding the difference between a democracy and a Republic. I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Emjay, it absolutely IS worth worrying about and it's not just semantics. This is a big part of the reason a majority of millennials think that socialism is a preferable form of government.
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Sadly, the Trump fans over the last couple of years have pretty much eradicated any trust that I would have to share a trench of foxhole with them in combat with the Left. The amount of disdain, contempt and ridicule levied at us and our beliefs/principles/ morality by the rabid Trump fanbase has made us clear adversaries. Hell, they call us 'the enemy' and Hillary supporters still to this day. I no longer believe we share the same fundamentals any more as demonstrated on a thread still ongoing here on this board. Therefore I have no real clue what it is that they would be actually fighting for beyond bloodletting vengeance and their own style of collectivist Statism so long as it's THEIR guy doing it. My motivating principles are held in contempt by both the Left and the Trump supporters and I would constantly have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure the long knives are not inserted into my back when sleeping in their camp. So no - I will not jump on the Trump train with them in regards to any action against the Left beyond what we do here on the board. I simply do not trust them enough to do so.
That said, just because there is no trust between us does not mean I do not recognize what the overt Communists and Statists are doing. I do see what they are doing. I just do not trust those that I assumed we were allies with to combat them since the advent of Trump.
You seem to have created a caricature of "Trump" supporters based on some dubious extrapolation from hyperbolic comments made during a bitter election cycle (By the President and by some of his supporters). That is a poor way to analyze ANY group of people...or any individual President...and its led you to some silly condemnations of Trump and Trump supporters.
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In the real world, this is simply semantics. Most people think we are a democracy without understanding the difference between a democracy and a Republic. I don't think it's worth worrying about.
Agreed. We are a representative democracy, not a direct democracy.
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That's about what I expected, but find it disappointing all the same.
Seven times seventy.
Me, too. Very disappointing. I won't bother with @INVAR again. I gave it my best shot and he remains willfully clutching his own virtue and ignoring reality.
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Agreed. We are a representative democracy, not a direct democracy.
Now I understand why we have some, ummm, differences of opinion. We are not a democracy, direct or otherwise. We are a constitutional republic where most representatives are elected democratically. The Constitution is the law of the land, and the document that makes us a country, NOT what the majority vote to happen.
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The sleeper awakes...20 months into this incremental coup and even the NT crowd is, at last, showing some signs of being "woke". I say this not to insult, nor as an I told you so, but as one of many who've been serving in the trenches of what we believe is the 1776 of our current time. We need your help in this fight, regardless of whatever stupid thing the President may have said in the past about not wanting such help, or we will surely lose it.
Liberals are rarely drawn to military service, nor to law enforcement or first responder work...for cultural and philosophical reasons...they presume instead to occupy our schools, our courts (as lawyers AND as judges) bureaucratic offices and media positions. In these fields, they are predominant and broadly pervasive at all levels. From these perches, they propagandize and indoctrinate our children on our dime...through dominance in the media, they do the same to adults across the nation. Their optimal tool is emphasis...they emphasize information that forwards their agenda and minimize that which does not...an often subtle but intensely effective methodology.
By controlling information, the courts, and the bureaucracy...they are positioned to engage in what Invar calls a "soft coup", the overthrow of any elected government or official who counters the Left's narrative or threatens its hegemony over the three pillars on which they rest their power...Education, the Courts, and the Bureaucracy. This triumvirate is crafty, it will tolerate ineffective "go along" opposition...or rather...they elevate it as a means of diluting true opposition to their rule. This is why the Left glorifies the McCain's, Flake's, Bush's and Romney's of the Right...it gives a facade of opposition without threatening the liberal triad.
And then along comes Trump. Bullish, boorish...egocentric and narcissistic...likely oblivious to the very real construct of the Liberal Triad. But like a pampered Bull Elephant in a house of delicate Origami...this boor is, perhaps unwittingly in many cases, overturning the foundations of the Triad. And this, they will not tolerate.
In threatening to steal the upper echelons of the court, Trump has now struck at the true heart of this beast...and by his uncouth candor and yes, his loud mouthed blundering and tweeting...he threatens the medias dominance and control of speech and narrative. And that will not be allowed.
Worse, if Trump can expose the plot to frame him and spy on him prior to the election, the Triad's most sacred cow...the bureaucracy leg of their power Triad...comes under threat. Correspondingly, the last shred of legitimacy of the Left's media will also be devastated. And, again, this they will not allow.
And so the coup. Not the traditional 3rd world coup nor the righteous indignation of the original American Revolution...no the Left's abhorrence of soldiers, police, honor and base concepts of free speech and markets...precludes a hard coup. But in a modern age, the Triad of power built by the Left is well suited to achieve the this kind of "soft coup"...the removal of a leader they fear and oppose by means other than direct force.
For the Left, at the deep philosophical level, this is not about Trump hate...that is simply a shallow tool they use to manipulate their blithely ignorant street minions like Antifa. In fact, Trump himself is irrelevant to the leaders of the Left. What they are seeking to overthrow is the ability of ANYONE on the right to threaten the 3 pillars of their power...that control over education, media and jurisprudence.
So anyone on the right who is NeverTrump...be that a principled disagreement on policy or a simple loathing of the man's personality...it is time to understand that this coup is not aimed at President Trump. It is aimed at you and I...at all of us that are fighting for a Republic NOT ruled by bureaucrats, educational 1984-ism, and yellow journalism.
Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight...there are others who oppose the Triad of course...but ONLY Trump is positioned to genuinely fight and win this struggle. For god's sake and our own, stop fighting him and start fighting the metastatic monstrosity that is controlling this nation's core...a Triad of power that is a cancer destroying our vitality, unity and function.
Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me say right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight.
We are all the new Sons of Liberty, and we must emulate their resolve and cooperation to resist.
Superb.
IF we don't hang together on the core fight that really matters -- the ability to continue to choose our own government rather than have it chosen for us -- we're all going to hang separately.
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I won't try to talk you into giving Trump any love but now that you know the face of our real enemy, how about a little support?
As I said above, given the amount of vitriol directed at the core principles and beliefs that I hold as foundational and necessary for liberty to exist at all, I do not trust you or Trump's fanbase with support, given the amount of crap flung upon it by you and Trump's allies, on this board, elsewhere and in the meat world.
I hear the same contempt and disdain for what my core principles are as I hear from the rabid secular Leftists.
Trust has been killed, so the consequences are that you are going to have to figure out how to 'win' without people like me.
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Now I understand why we have some, ummm, differences of opinion. We are not a democracy, direct or otherwise. We are a constitutional republic where most representatives are elected democratically. The Constitution is the law of the land, and the document that makes us a country, NOT what the majority vote to happen.
:amen: :amen: and :amen: again!
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@Right_in_Virginia
RIV, not sure how strongly we disagree on this...but you are right that my statement is a bit hyperbolic and does play into some exaggerated stereotypes about the president. In that light, I have likely overstated my description of the President's perspective. I do think the President understands much of what he is facing...and I do think he has a plan and intention for fighting this battle. BUT...I also fear that he underestimates or does not clearly see the scope and intensity of the deep state/media/intelligentsia Triad that he is facing. He IS the right man at the right time to fight this fight, in part because he doesn't fully know or care how powerful the enemy is.
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Superb.
IF we don't hang together on the core fight that really matters -- the ability to continue to choose our own government rather than have it chosen for us -- we're all going to hang separately.
That is a statement I can definitely agree with! :amen:
I have yet to ever vote for President Trump but that matters not at all now! This Republic is in GRAVE danger and I'm going to do EVERYTHING in my power to save it!
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That's about what I expected, but find it disappointing all the same.
Seven times seventy.
That comes AFTER repentance dear. Not before.
And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.
I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.
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As I said above, given the amount of vitriol directed at the core principles and beliefs that I hold as foundational and necessary for liberty to exist at all, I do not trust you or Trump's fanbase with support, given the amount of crap flung upon it by you and Trump's allies, on this board, elsewhere and in the meat world.
I hear the same contempt and disdain for what my core principles are as I hear from the rabid secular Leftists.
Trust has been killed, so the consequences are that you are going to have to figure out how to 'win' without people like me.
If trust is killed, you killed it, @INVAR You are a <NOPE> and, by the way, we WILL figure out how to win without people like you.
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That comes AFTER repentance dear. Not before.
And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.
I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.
And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate". I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote). Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.
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Don't be modest @Emjay tell him what you really think!!! /s
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You seem to have created a caricature of "Trump" supporters based on some dubious extrapolation from hyperbolic comments made during a bitter election cycle (By the President and by some of his supporters). That is a poor way to analyze ANY group of people...or any individual President...and its led you to some silly condemnations of Trump and Trump supporters.
Not JUST during the election cycle. It continues to this very moment and it has finally gotten down to the core of argument - to the motivating foundational principles necessary for liberty that are held in the same exact contempt and hatred that the Left holds those things.
There is no trust. Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?
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And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate". I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote). Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.
I know @XenaLee and I agree. Sometimes it's not just about us but about the good of America.
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If trust is killed, you killed it, @INVAR You are a <NOPE> and, by the way, we WILL figure out how to win without people like you.
Thank you for making my entire point @Emjay
Why should I support your cause with that kind of contempt?
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There is no trust. Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?
Very good question. I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons). However, to answer your question.
Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them. So at a minimum, you at least still have a chance to have your views prevail through the democratic process. The leftists are no longer willing to do this. They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.
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@Right_in_Virginia
RIV, not sure how strongly we disagree on this...but you are right that my statement is a bit hyperbolic and does play into some exaggerated stereotypes about the president. In that light, I have likely overstated my description of the President's perspective. I do think the President understands much of what he is facing...and I do think he has a plan and intention for fighting this battle. BUT...I also fear that he underestimates or does not clearly see the scope and intensity of the deep state/media/intelligentsia Triad that he is facing. He IS the right man at the right time to fight this fight, in part because he doesn't fully know or care how powerful the enemy is.
Methinks any underestimates of what he's facing and what is trying to destroy his Presidency and his life are long gone @Mesaclone And in a strange turn of events, we have Mr. Mueller to thank. :smokin:
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And the difference between your stance and mine is.... again... I don't give a damn what "they hate". I have to do what I need to do in order to feel that I did my best and at least tried to thwart the Marxist Left by voting against them this November, in 2020, and from now on (as long as I am able to vote). Anything less would be unacceptable for my peace of mind, no matter what happens in the future.
I'm in a much different place at this point in time Xena. You are where I was a few years ago politically.
The real solution is not going to come via politics - we are way past rectifying that as each day's progression into madness demonstrates.
But that said, you must do what you feel is necessary to look yourself in the mirror and believe you did what you could to forestall where we are arriving.
I've just moved on from believing that the way to go about it was what I had been doing for 3 decades.
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As I said above, given the amount of vitriol directed at the core principles and beliefs that I hold as foundational and necessary for liberty to exist at all, I do not trust you or Trump's fanbase with support, given the amount of crap flung upon it by you and Trump's allies, on this board, elsewhere and in the meat world.
I hear the same contempt and disdain for what my core principles are as I hear from the rabid secular Leftists.
Trust has been killed, so the consequences are that you are going to have to figure out how to 'win' without people like me.
Some axioms are timeless and always apropos. Consider this one:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Arthashastra
There is wise strategy, and then there is what you're doing. Perhaps you should take some time and read a bit of Sun Tzu.
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Also, I just want to say that on those occasions when the various sides in here may actually seem to agree on something, that is perhaps not the best time to try to score rhetorical points on how the other side has finally seen things "the right way".
Concessions, even small ones, should be accepted graciously and with respect.
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I'm in a much different place at this point in time Xena. You are where I was a few years ago politically.
The real solution is not going to come via politics - we are way past rectifying that as each day's progression into madness demonstrates.
But that said, you must do what you feel is necessary to look yourself in the mirror and believe you did what you could to forestall where we are arriving.
I've just moved on from believing that the way to go about it was what I had been doing for 3 decades.
And that is your option, your belief, your choice and your opinion, which we are all entitled to. It's just a shame that 'some' here can't accept that reality for others they disagree with.
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We are a constitutional republic where most representatives are elected democratically.
And that's exactly what I meant, Sanguine, when I said we are a "representative democracy". No difference of opinion, just a desire to use fewer words rather than a mouthful.
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That comes AFTER repentance dear. Not before.
And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.
I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.
@INVAR, Really dear? Where does it say repentance first?
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?â€
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
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Not JUST during the election cycle. It continues to this very moment and it has finally gotten down to the core of argument - to the motivating foundational principles necessary for liberty that are held in the same exact contempt and hatred that the Left holds those things.
There is no trust. Without that, why should I stand alongside those who hold my views of liberty in the same hatred and contempt that the Left does?
Absurd is the word I'd use. There are NT's and Pro Trump folks who "continue to this very moment" to say harsh things about each other...you included. Some of that is reasonable debate and much of it is just childish bickering. But nobody I've seen here is anything but a strong advocate for our "motivating foundational principles"...and certainly do not hold such things in contempt. The people I've met here are virtually ALL people of strong faith, and those judging them otherwise should look inward.
It is true that not everyone here holds your precise religious beliefs, nor fully concurs with your view of the role of religion in government, but EVERYONE here that I've seen holds their faith dear and believes that faith in god is an important quality in our leadership.
You seem to paint disagreement as contempt and believe that anyone who varies...to ANY degree...from your view of religion and its interaction in government...to be the enemy, or to be unworthy of alliance. If so, you can never have any role in Republican governance...because 97% of the rest of the country, from that lofty and narcissistic perch, are either apostates, Satanists, heretics or faithless curs. That's a ridiculous position...only a true fool would lump folks like RIV, Emjay, BillMartin, myself and a many other here with "Leftists". You've become akin to the Spanish Inquisition in your politics.
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And that's exactly what I meant, Sanguine, when I said we are a "representative democracy". No difference of opinion, just a desire to use fewer words rather than a mouthful.
Jazzhead, since the term democracy has been co-opted to further the leftist, anti-American and anti-west agenda, it's really not an appropriate term. Nor is it an appropriate term, by definition.
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Take it outside. We just mopped the floors and don't need another pissing contest.
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Also, I just want to say that on those occasions when the various sides in here may actually seem to agree on something, that is perhaps not the best time to try to score rhetorical points on how the other side has finally seen things "the right way".
Concessions, even small ones, should be accepted graciously and with respect.
Major Bill, that's a good reminder and I will take it to heart.
@Maj. Bill Martin
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Very good question. I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons). However, to answer your question.
Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy Constitutional Republic, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them. So at a minimum, you at least still have a chance to have your views prevail through the democratic process. The leftists are no longer willing to do this. They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.
@Maj. Bill Martin
Fixed that for you! I don't want anything to do with any form of Democracy!
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Very good question. I think your characterization is a bit hyperbolic in terms of the scope of the disagreement on substance, (not everyone is equally supportive of Trump or for the same reasons).
I do not remember if you were on the same threads that were arguing about foundational precepts of morality necessary for liberty as intended for us. The disagreement was on the substance of whether or not those moral precepts were an evil and needing to be discarded and silenced for political unity or upheld without compromise.
The argument boiled down to a fight between freedom and liberty, and it appears in all the argumentation that freedom is preferred over liberty. I do not consider the revelation coming out of those arguments to be hyperbolic. The comments were direct. The difference is the fact that a few of us believe they are vital and necessary for liberty to exist - and others see them as every bit an intrinsic evil as what the Left believes them to be.
Those who support Trump, unlike the leftists, still generally support the idea of a representative democracy, and wish to respect the results of elections even when we disagree with them.
Well, I am not interested in helping to fight for a 'representative democracy'. That is where we have already been taken over the last 100 years.
They want to turn this into a far left country, and are willing to run roughshod over the free choices of citizens if necessary to implement and enforce that.
And I have heard the "Trump right" advocating the same exact thing in their own way and manner. Both do so in the name of 'preservation' and 'freedom'.
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Methinks any underestimates of what he's facing and what is trying to destroy his Presidency and his life are long gone @Mesaclone And in a strange turn of events, we have Mr. Mueller to thank. :smokin:
That is an excellent point...I had not thought of the Mueller investigation in that light. I think you are right that it has served as something of an awakening for the President...I hope you are right that he now has a full picture of what is seeking to overthrow him.
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Some axioms are timeless and always apropos. Consider this one:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Arthashastra
There is wise strategy, and then there is what you're doing. Perhaps you should take some time and read a bit of Sun Tzu.
I follow this axiom:
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" - Amos 3:3
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Don't be modest @Emjay tell him what you really think!!! /s
Hah @corbe Well, I was ticked off at him <NOPE> so I guess I've succeeded in making another enemy. Oh, well. I guess I'll live.
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I follow this axiom:
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" - Amos 3:3
@INVAR, how about this axiom:
Quote from: INVAR on Today at 12:55:45 PM
That comes AFTER repentance dear. Not before.
And even still, the CONSEQUENCES for breaking trust is not automatically regained without works befitting earning that trust.
I got nothing but a lecture and not a thing said or suggested that would give me any cause to believe they do not hate my beliefs, principles, foundations and guts any less than the Marxist Left does.
@INVAR, Really dear? Where does it say repentance first?
Quote
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?â€
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
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I follow this axiom:
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" - Amos 3:3
When it comes to war - and there can be no doubt that we are in one - I follow this one: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend!"
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@INVAR, Really dear? Where does it say repentance first?
Well then fine. Don't require it. Forgive Sin without repentance so that grace may abound.
You know, politically if that is truly your understanding, you should be forgiving the Marxist Left right now in advance of whatever it is they do that upsets you, and go along with them in unity with what they intend to do so you can be seen among men as being 'forgiving'.
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Well then fine. Don't require it. Forgive Sin without repentance so that grace may abound.
You know, politically if that is truly your understanding, you should be forgiving the Marxist Left right now in advance of whatever it is they do that upsets you, and go along with them in unity with what they intend to do so you can be seen among men as being 'forgiving'.
You know that won't fly. I was merely quoting Jesus. You may disagree with Him as you like.
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Well then fine. Don't require it. Forgive Sin without repentance so that grace may abound.
You know, politically if that is truly your understanding, you should be forgiving the Marxist Left right now in advance of whatever it is they do that upsets you, and go along with them in unity with what they intend to do so you can be seen among men as being 'forgiving'.
Hell no. No forgiveness for leftists in MY logic book.
I discern that the leftists are enemies of God and therefore, are my enemies. What good is the gift of discernment if you don't use it...
to discern....lol.
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You know that won't fly. I was merely quoting Jesus. You may disagree with Him as you like.
Really? So - when Peter answered the men of Jerusalem on Pentecost about what they should do - the first requirement should be ignored then, yes?
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What good is the gift of discernment if you don't use it...
to discern....lol.
Apropos. And very good advise.
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Hell no. No forgiveness for leftists in MY logic book.
I discern that the leftists are enemies of God and therefore, are my enemies. What good is the gift of discernment if you don't use it...
to discern....lol.
When one constantly 'forgives' bad behavior without requiring repentance and efforts to STOP the behavior - all one is doing with constant forgiveness is CONDONING bad behavior and teaching them that there are no consequences for it.
Which may go a ways towards explaining why the Left continues to get worse.
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Really? So - when Peter answered the men of Jerusalem on Pentecost about what they should do - the first requirement should be ignored then, yes?
Pretty weak deflection, but however you want to spin it, Invar. :shrug:
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So anyone on the right who is NeverTrump...be that a principled disagreement on policy or a simple loathing of the man's personality...it is time to understand that this coup is not aimed at President Trump. It is aimed at you and I...at all of us that are fighting for a Republic NOT ruled by bureaucrats, educational 1984-ism, and yellow journalism.
Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight...there are others who oppose the Triad of course...but ONLY Trump is positioned to genuinely fight and win this struggle. For god's sake and our own, stop fighting him and start fighting the metastatic monstrosity that is controlling this nation's core...a Triad of power that is a cancer destroying our vitality, unity and function.
Everyone here knows that INVAR and I do not like each other. We disagree at a visceral level and at times it can be bitter and harsh. But let me say right now, if people like myself and INVAR cannot find a way to fight together against this Triad that is assaulting the Presidency and all things conservative...the Left will win this fight.
We are all the new Sons of Liberty, and we must emulate their resolve and cooperation to resist.
Hallelujah. At least one more, cranial extraction.
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I follow this axiom:
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" - Amos 3:3
If the answer to the query in Amos 3:3 is "no"...than this planet has 6 billion+ people who must always walk alone, apart from each other. No two people will ever agree in all things...which is the ad absurdam extremum of such an axiom.
Again, you use god and the bible as tools for exclusion, condemnation and narcissism...I think the message of the bible, and of Jesus...is otherwise. Under your interpretation, which you certainly have a right to no matter how misguided, how would conservatives EVER be able to work together politically to oppose Leftist Totalitarianism? You seem to be advocating that we just sit back and hope God ties our shoelaces and fixes our boo-boos...I guess I believe god helps those who help themselves.
Everyone here, I believe, wants to stop this tide of Leftist Totalitarianism...you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?
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When one constantly 'forgives' bad behavior without requiring repentance and efforts to STOP the behavior - all one is doing with constant forgiveness is CONDONING bad behavior and teaching them that there are no consequences for it.
Which may go a ways towards explaining why the Left continues to get worse.
You're gonna force me to post it again, aren't you.
Jesus forgives sin, but that is based on the 'not sinning' again. The left is constantly rewarded for their bad behavior by other leftists, by the leftist media and by ignorant people that misunderstand the Bible and Jesus's teachings. Some love to cherry pick certain things Jesus said to make their case for that blanket forgiveness.... but the bottom line is.... Jesus said "Go and sin no more". I don't see how that can be misconstrued or misunderstood, even if taken out of context.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
John 8:11
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/JHN.8.11.kjv (https://www.bible.com/bible/1/JHN.8.11.kjv)
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First, congratulations on a very well written and focused essay @Mesaclone It is truly impressive.
I cringed a little at one quote --- because not only is it incorrect, it's part of the defining blurb on who this President is. I want you, and all others are welcome too, to recognize that Donald J. Trump understood exactly what was going on in Washington -- and there is nothing accidental about Trump fighting these bastards head on. It is not happenstance. It is his plan.
So, I take a little exception to this:
This one speech explains why this "pampered Bull Elephant" ran for the office and should convince you that he did so with both eyes open. And this is why we elected him.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ)
People I trust who have first hand knowledge of Donald Trump, describe a very different man than the media caricature; they describe a man who is intelligent, hard-working, reads everything he gets his hands on, who in person has a gracious and kind personality and is the furthest thing from racist (fought his Florida town to integrate his golf club) or xenophobic (two marriages were with foreign women) or anti Semitic (his daughter converted to Judaism), and on and on. Fact is, the Left and NeverTrumpers have had Donald Trump wrong all along.
For his presidential accomplishments and for his impact on modern politics, Donald Trump will go down in history as a significant presidential figure.
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If the answer to the query in Amos 3:3 is "no"...than this planet has 6 billion+ people who must always walk alone, apart from each other. No two people will ever agree in all things...which is the ad absurdam extremum of such an axiom.
Again, you use god and the bible as tools for exclusion, condemnation and narcissism...I think the message of the bible, and of Jesus...is otherwise. Under your interpretation, which you certainly have a right to no matter how misguided, how would conservatives EVER be able to work together politically to oppose Leftist Totalitarianism? You seem to be advocating that we just sit back and hope God ties our shoelaces and fixes our boo-boos...I guess I believe god helps those who help themselves.
Everyone here, I believe, wants to stop this tide of Leftist Totalitarianism...you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?
Thanks @Mesaclone Apparently I was a little brusque in my criticism of @INVAR attitude and thank you for putting what I was trying to say more elegantly.
I do not believe we can afford to be selfish in this fight because we have a grudge against our current leader.
But that is exactly what some people here are doing. They've had a glimpse of the real enemy and the lengths to which that enemy will go, but they still won't get on the right side.
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And I have heard the "Trump right" advocating the same exact thing in their own way and manner. Both do so in the name of 'preservation' and 'freedom'.
I'm going to echo a point made by @Mesaclone , and say that I believe you have a tendency to take the worst things that are said by the most fervent of the Trump supporters, and generalize those things to anyone who voted for him. If you always assume the worst about people, that is inevitably what you are going to see and find.
There are differences, but looking at the extremes isn't really a fair way to gauge them.
I have a strong feeling that if things ever went all the way downhill, and we ended up in violence, we'd be fighting on the same side. I'd just hope that at some point before that's the last bit of common ground left, there could be at least some issue where we fight a common enemy.
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I'm going to echo a point made by @Mesaclone , and say that I believe you have a tendency to take the worst things that are said by the most fervent of the Trump supporters, and generalize those things to anyone who voted for him. If you always assume the worst about people, that is inevitably what you are going to see and find.
There are differences, but looking at the extremes isn't really a fair way to gauge them.
I have a strong feeling that if things ever went all the way downhill, and we ended up in violence, we'd be fighting on the same side. I'd just hope that at some point before that's the last bit of common ground left, there could be at least some issue where we fight a common enemy.
I explained to @INVAR earlier that for all the fervent 'Trump can do no wrong' people here and there are only a very few, there are a whole bunch of people who support Trump because we think he's doing a very good job under really trying circumstances. Not sure he listened.
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Everyone here, I believe, wants to stop this tide of Leftist Totalitarianism...you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?
Why would I allow myself to be in alliance with a bunch who have declared me to be an 'enemy' and who hate and hold my beliefs in the same contempt the the radical secular Left does?
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Jesus forgives sin, but that is based on the 'not sinning' again. The left is constantly rewarded for their bad behavior by other leftists, by the leftist media and by ignorant people that misunderstand the Bible and Jesus's teachings. Some love to cherry pick certain things Jesus said to make their case for that blanket forgiveness.... but the bottom line is.... Jesus said "Go and sin no more". I don't see how that can be misconstrued or misunderstood, even if taken out of context.
AMEN!!!!
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Why would I allow myself to be in alliance with a bunch who have declared me to be an 'enemy' and who hate and hold my beliefs in the same contempt the the radical secular Left does?
@INVAR
I have no idea who has done that here but I can guarantee you I haven't! Not once! Our Republic is under assault from within and Donald J. Trump IS the president trying to stop the assault. I'm going to do what I can to help him!
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Why would I allow myself to be in alliance with a bunch who have declared me to be an 'enemy' and who hate and hold my beliefs in the same contempt the the radical secular Left does?
My goodness, what a delicate teacup you are!
Folks don't hate you, INVAR, but neither do they give a shit about you and your peculiar demons. I'll say this - your self-absorption is astonishing. May patriots act while you sulk.
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You're gonna force me to post it again, aren't you.
Jesus forgives sin, but that is based on the 'not sinning' again. The left is constantly rewarded for their bad behavior by other leftists, by the leftist media and by ignorant people that misunderstand the Bible and Jesus's teachings. Some love to cherry pick certain things Jesus said to make their case for that blanket forgiveness.... but the bottom line is.... Jesus said "Go and sin no more". I don't see how that can be misconstrued or misunderstood, even if taken out of context.
Yes, and I agree with that...mostly. What Jesus was talking about in the verse that @INVAR was using, is that you forgive your family and neighbors, even when they don't seem to deserve it. That you have more forgiveness towards them than you really want to.
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@INVAR
I have no idea who has done that here but I can guarantee you I haven't! Not once! Our Republic is under assault from within and Donald J. Trump IS the president trying to stop the assault. I'm going to do what I can to help him!
Ditto! 888high58888
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Yes, and I agree with that...mostly. What Jesus was talking about in the verse that @INVAR was using, is that you forgive your family and neighbors, even when they don't seem to deserve it. That you have more forgiveness towards them than you really want to.
And I do and I have.... much to my chagrin later on.....lolol. It's all good tho. Every time you forgive someone that has wronged you in some way, you are blessed for it. happy77
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As everyone knows I am no Trump fan. However, what is now happening on an almost daily basis with increasing outrageousness is our witness to the very real attempts being made to completely circumvent and counter the Executive.
If nothing is done about this - I agree with the comments - we are OFFICIALLY a Banana Republic and the rule of law is truly dead.
Every man for themselves.
@INVAR
FWIW, I don't think the document is real. The conclusion of the letter wants information delivered to 'the Gang of Eight'... That is not how that would happen. The information would be requested by a committee or sub-committee, and delivered likewise, as 'the Gang of Eight' is nothing but a construct. Thus I believe the use of 'the Gang of Eight' in the letter to be nothing but a dog-whistle, poorly applied...
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My goodness, what a delicate teacup you are!
Folks don't hate you, INVAR, but neither do they give a shit about you and your peculiar demons. I'll say this - your self-absorption is astonishing. May patriots act while you sulk.
Agree @Jazzhead @INVAR has really tried to make people hate him with his utter dismissal and contempt for anyone who is a Trump supporter.
I don't hate him, but I wish he would wallow in his own misery without posting it every two minutes.
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Why would I allow myself to be in alliance with a bunch who have declared me to be an 'enemy' and who hate and hold my beliefs in the same contempt the the radical secular Left does?
@INVAR
I'll be glad to answer your question quite candidly if you will answer mine.
Re-posting it below:
"....you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?"
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And I do and I have.... much to my chagrin later on.....lolol. It's all good tho. Every time you forgive someone that has wronged you in some way, you are blessed for it. happy77
:beer:
(Is beer ok in this context?)
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I have a strong feeling that if things ever went all the way downhill, and we ended up in violence, we'd be fighting on the same side.
I appreciate your optimism and goodwill, but after the last couple of years - I have to ask - what "side" would that be exactly?
The "Side" that says you are either with Trump or with the "enemy"??
The Side that says my biblical faith and moral principles are a 'danger' to the country and that we are establishing a 'theocracy' if we are not willing to surrender them and shut up about morality??
Or the Side that says voting your conscience and/or third party is not only selfish and stupid but hands the enemies of the country the reigns of power?
Why is it that the Principled are always expected to 'join' the side that demands compromise? When will they join 'our side' for a change?
The answer is obviously never.
I'm not sure what common ground is left anymore. Decency has taken a leave of absence and virtue is seen as an evil by a whole lot of folks on "our side" who are pissed off that we will not excuse it when their guy does things that they got pissed about when Democrats did them.
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See, that post right there by @INVAR is all you need to know about the utter futility of trying to reason with the guy.
I've tried several times. Believe me, it is a total waste of time.
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FWIW, I don't think the document is real.
It very may well not be. I just found it interesting that it does come from a site that has been cited for 'truth' by the Trump movement because of it's support for him.
I will say that if it does turn out to be true - I will not be surprised one iota.
I mean, John Effing Kerry just went to Iran to provide a completely different diplomatic agenda and policy directive than the current Administration provides for did he not?
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@INVAR
I'll be glad to answer your question quite candidly if you will answer mine.
Re-posting it below:
"....you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?"
No, that is not correct.
There is nothing there to fight *FOR*
Just like there was nothing there to vote *FOR*
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Folks don't hate you, INVAR,
Shall I provide quotes for you that contradict your assertion?
Here's one from a member right here at TBR:
The difference sir, is that I embrace the hatred I have for the likes of you and your ilk here on the forum.
I don't deny it.
I'll say this - your self-absorption is astonishing. May patriots act while you sulk.
I'll wave at you patriots as you go march off to mix it up with the Left in Trump's army. Have fun.
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:beer:
(Is beer ok in this context?)
As long as it's Corona! :laugh:
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First, congratulations on a very well written and focused essay @Mesaclone It is truly impressive.
I cringed a little at one quote --- because not only is it incorrect, it's part of the defining blurb on who this President is. I want you, and all others are welcome too, to recognize that Donald J. Trump understood exactly what was going on in Washington -- and there is nothing accidental about Trump fighting these bastards head on. It is not happenstance. It is his plan.
So, I take a little exception to this:
This one speech explains why this "pampered Bull Elephant" ran for the office and should convince you that he did so with both eyes open. And this is why we elected him.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ)
So do I. What is wrong with people, thinking bad mouthing the president & saying things NOT TRUE about him, then asking for people to UNITE, under this person, that was just badmouthed?
I keep saying conservatives keep shooting themselves in the foot!
They just can't stop saying negatives words, about my president! It is some sort of SPORT, for people. I just have to shake my head. Nothing wrong with president TRUMP, however the people in America, those people, I have my doubts.
Where is common sense?
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It very may well not be. I just found it interesting that it does come from a site that has been cited for 'truth' by the Trump movement because of it's support for him.
And likewise why I find it suspicious.
I will say that if it does turn out to be true - I will not be surprised one iota.
Well, it likely is true, in spirit... Ol Chucky Schumer has said as much, publicly. That any means would justify the end is not a surprise coming from the liberals. But neither is it a surprise coming from Tump Agitprop General ...
go team. rah.
I mean, John Effing Kerry just went to Iran to provide a completely different diplomatic agenda and policy directive than the current Administration provides for did he not?
meh. So what? John Effing (I've got three Purple Hearts) Kerry has been doing this very same thing ever since Nam. What gives this particular time the special sauce?
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! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYvQPKskqSU&feature=youtu.be#)
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Where is common sense?
Out the window, with every single Conservative principle.
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@INVAR
I'll be glad to answer your question quite candidly if you will answer mine.
Re-posting it below:
"....you seem to be saying that we cannot work together to fight such a thing, because those of us who support Trump are unworthy of your alliance. Is this correct?"
Again, your compatriots have made it abundantly clear that they are not interested in an 'alliance' unless I pledge 100% fealty to Trump, because they themselves have said that unless that happens, I am untrustworthy to have in their ranks. I am never going to pledge fealty or loyalty to Trump. So again, why should I consider being in alliance with a bunch that holds me in the same contempt that they do the Left?
Also, as Roamer_1 rightly noted - what is it exactly that we would be fighting FOR?
Preservation of virtue and foundational principles that make liberty and a civil society possible in the first place?
Nope. Certainly not as recent threads clearly illustrate.
It seems to be all about preserving Trump or the GOP - and those are not worth my time or effort to fight for.
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I've been saying this for months and people gave me the 'tin foil' hat line. IMHO there has been more than one attempt and at times I believe there has been a coup within a coup. President Trump is like a lone man on an island surrounded by alligators and piranha. He has no protection as his AG was bought and paid for a long, long time ago.
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I appreciate your optimism and goodwill, but after the last couple of years - I have to ask - what "side" would that be exactly?
The "Side" that says you are either with Trump or with the "enemy"?? No such side exists, though it is concurrently true that not voting and/or wasting your vote on no chance 3rd parties does facilitate the election of Dem-Leftists.
The Side that says my biblical faith and moral principles are a 'danger' to the country and that we are establishing a 'theocracy' if we are not willing to surrender them and shut up about morality?? There is no "side" on this board that believes this. Not one person on this board believes anyone should surrender their moral principles or biblical faith...that is a silly canard.[/i]
Or the Side that says voting your conscience and/or third party is not only selfish and stupid but hands the enemies of the country the reigns of power? Again, I know of no side that believes you should vote against your conscience, though it IS true that wasting a vote on someone with no chance of being elected IS tactically and strategically stupid...and its effect IS potentially to hand the reigns of power to the Dem-Left.
Why is it that the Principled are always expected to 'join' the side that demands compromise? ALL of us here are principled people, quit pretending only you fit that description. But without compromise, no conservative can ever be elected...there's good reason that Reagan himself has been called the Great Compromiser. When will they join 'our side' for a change? When a man like Pence or Cruz win the nomination, which is very likely to happen post-Trump (2024). If nominated, both would have my vote in an instant.
The answer is obviously never.
I'm not sure what common ground is left anymore. Decency has taken a leave of absence and virtue is seen as an evil by a whole lot of folks on "our side" who are pissed off that we will not excuse it when their guy does things that they got pissed about when Democrats did them.Another straw man. You are no more decent than the rest of us here...and none us believe bad behavior or policy should be excused. What we don't do is expect perfection...or that our leaders all be choir boys and saints. We expect them to push conservative ideas and policies, something Trump has been doing more than any President since at least Reagan himself.
Come down from your pedestal, you are no more principled and imbued with "faith" than the rest of us. We hold to our principles and expect others to do the same...but that does not mean we believe that none of us can achieve compromise and cooperation with fellow conservatives and Republicans. Intellect demands that we do so.
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Again, your compatriots have made it abundantly clear that they are not interested in an 'alliance' unless I pledge 100% fealty to Trump, because they themselves have said that unless that happens, I am untrustworthy to have in their ranks. I am never going to pledge fealty or loyalty to Trump. So again, why should I consider being in alliance with a bunch that holds me in the same contempt that they do the Left?
Also, as Roamer_1 rightly noted - what is it exactly that we would be fighting FOR?
Preservation of virtue and foundational principles that make liberty and a civil society possible in the first place?
Nope. Certainly not as recent threads clearly illustrate.
It seems to be all about preserving Trump or the GOP - and those are not worth my time or effort to fight for.
For purposes of clarity....is that a yes or a no.
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People I trust who have first hand knowledge of Donald Trump, describe a very different man than the media caricature; they describe a man who is intelligent, hard-working, reads everything he gets his hands on, who in person has a gracious and kind personality and is the furthest thing from racist (fought his Florida town to integrate his golf club) or xenophobic (two marriages were with foreign women) or anti Semitic (his daughter converted to Judaism), and on and on. Fact is, the Left and NeverTrumpers have had Donald Trump wrong all along.
For his presidential accomplishments and for his impact on modern politics, Donald Trump will go down in history as a significant presidential figure.
Correct! :hands:
So many people are supporting deep state and they don't know it. They would rather believe all the DIRT/LIES on TRUMP, rather then see how he is helping our country. It makes them "superior". When do people grow up? It is not about their "feelings", their "principles", it is about our country!
Just like, you have the RIGHT of way at a stop sign. But another car drives through & kills you. You were 'RIGHT', but you are still DEAD! You are dead right. This is what N.T.'s do. They want to be RIGHT. Yes, dead right. And that helps, who?
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Apparently rumors of a successful cranial extraction, were premature.
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I've been saying this for months and people gave me the 'tin foil' hat line. IMHO there has been more than one attempt and at times I believe there has been a coup within a coup. President Trump is like a lone man on an island surrounded by alligators and piranha. He has no protection as his AG was bought and paid for a long, long time ago.
@libertybele I cannot pretend to know about the odd dynamics between Sessions and Trump. I do know that Sessions has failed to either do his duty or resign. I used to think he was a good, if ineffectual, man but something is very wrong.
I worry about the situation with Trump also, but, fortunately for us, I don't think Trump himself is worried. He is steadfastly pursuing his goals and he is making headway.
Astonishing headway in the face of the obstacles thrown in front of him from all sides.
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Without the principles of Conservatism, what you will have on the right is one of three:
Anarchy
Theocracy
or
National Socialism.
Since this iteration is a big spending big gov sort, dispossessed of those very principles, it is not Anarchy, though it could yet devolve there.
Since it eschews the values of Social Conservatism, and spits upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic, it certainly is no Theocracy, though with the messianic strains in hailing Tump, it certainly could yet devolve there.
Which leaves but one other option, which this current iteration fits. Not cleanly as yet, but it fits. Welcome to the Workers Party.
National Socialist v. Communist (deja vu all over again)... I have no dog in that hunt. No matter who wins, my liberty is gone. And I will not assist either in becoming my master. A pox on both houses.
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Apparently rumors of a successful cranial extraction, were premature.
I think it is funny, how the anti-Trump crowd wants president TRUMP to have a different personality...yet,,,THEY WILL NOT CHANGE THEMSELVES. Thy demand something of HIM, which they would not do, themselves. I think, that is real narcissism and being self centered! All about themselves, their 'feelings', their principles, them, them them.
Nothing about saving our country. Self absorbed, using 'religion' as the reason, when even that, is false , and they don't understand the real message of scripture. From 2,000 years ago, telling stories of the times.
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We hold to our principles and expect others to do the same...
What 'principles'?
We have been told time and again that we must surrender those principles for the sake of the public good, political expedience and unity.
The only principles I hear being pushed by the Trump bunch, are supporting Trump.
Fiscal restraint?
Nope.
Virtue, morality and self-control?
Nope. Advocating for those things makes me an instant enemy that is said to be attempting to impose a theocracy.
that does not mean we believe that none of us can achieve compromise and cooperation with fellow conservatives and Republicans. Intellect demands that we do so.
Well, I'm done compromising. You can join us in the fight for the restoration of our religious heritage, foundational principles and moral virtue in the culture - or you can continue to mix it up with the left on your own via political warfare. Have fun.
For purposes of clarity....is that a yes or a no.
Your fellow Trump compatriots have made that answer abundantly clear - and I answered it for you already.
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@libertybele I cannot pretend to know about the odd dynamics between Sessions and Trump. I do know that Sessions has failed to either do his duty or resign. I used to think he was a good, if ineffectual, man but something is very wrong.
I worry about the situation with Trump also, but, fortunately for us, I don't think Trump himself is worried. He is steadfastly pursuing his goals and he is making headway.
Astonishing headway in the face of the obstacles thrown in front of him from all sides.
:thumbsup:
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I think it is funny, how the anti-Trump crowd wants president TRUMP to have a different personality...yet,,,THEY WILL NOT CHANGE THEMSELVES. Thy demand something of HIM, which they would not do, themselves. I think, that is real narcissism and being self centered! All about themselves, their 'feelings', their principles, them, them them.
Nothing about saving our country. Self absorbed, using 'religion' as the reason, when even that, is false , and they don't understand the real message of scripture. From 2,000 years ago, telling stories of the times.
@LegalAmerican You hit the nail exactly on the head.
The most virulent Trump critics will not change, will not budge, will not see reason. They are totally wrapped up in their own virtue and their own views of morality.
And yet, and yet, they have the Colossal Nerve to expect Trump to change.
It boggles the mind.
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It is not about their "feelings", their "principles", it is about our country!
Just like, you have the RIGHT of way at a stop sign. But another car drives through & kills you. You were 'RIGHT', but you are still DEAD! You are dead right. This is what N.T.'s do. They want to be RIGHT. Yes, dead right. And that helps, who?
Damn Straight.
Give me Liberty, or give me death.
And this country means nothing at all. It is the liberty it used to afford us all that means something.
And without those principles you sneer at, there is no liberty.
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Without the principles of Conservatism, what you will have on the right is one of three:
Anarchy
Theocracy
or
National Socialism.
Since this iteration is a big spending big gov sort, dispossessed of those very principles, it is not Anarchy, though it could yet devolve there.
Since it eschews the values of Social Conservatism, and spits upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic, it certainly is no Theocracy, though with the messianic strains in hailing Tump, it certainly could yet devolve there.
Which leaves but one other option, which this current iteration fits. Not cleanly as yet, but it fits. Welcome to the Workers Party.
National Socialist v. Communist (deja vu all over again)... I have no dog in that hunt. No matter who wins, my liberty is gone. And I will not assist either in becoming my master. A pox on both houses.
Um... I'm seeing hints of all three already.
Anarchy via the radical left activists, Antifa.
Theocracy via the god leftists worship which is big "G" Government (they love that totalitarian stuff as long as they're the ones in control).
National Socialism via the brain-washed, indoctrinated and dumbed-down voters who are too stupid (or haven't been taught) to know the evils of socialism (ie communism w/a smiley face), so they vote for whatever Democrat promises them them most "free stuff".
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I appreciate your optimism and goodwill, but after the last couple of years - I have to ask - what "side" would that be exactly?
The "Side" that says you are either with Trump or with the "enemy"??
I've never said that, and a lot of people have never said that. You are again taking the most extreme statements of some Trump supporters -- sometimes that are just intended as hyperbole -- and using that to claim that there is no possibility of cooperation on anything with anyone except those who think exactly as you do.
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Um... I'm seeing hints of all three already.
Anarchy via the radical left activists, Antifa.
Theocracy via the god leftists worship which is big "G" Government (they love that totalitarian stuff as long as they're the ones in control).
National Socialism via the brain-washed, indoctrinated and dumbed-down voters who are too stupid (or haven't been taught) to know the evils of socialism (ie communism w/a smiley face), so they vote for whatever Democrat promises them them most "free stuff".
Not my point. Look to the right, and what the right is espousing.
Liberalism does not win by merit. It has none.
It wins because it has no opposition.
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I've never said that, and a lot of people have never said that. You are again taking the most extreme statements of some Trump supporters -- sometimes that are just intended as hyperbole -- and using that to claim that there is no possibility of cooperation on anything with anyone except those who think exactly as you do.
If that's what you think, then you haven't been paying attention.
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Not my point. Look to the right, and what the right is espousing.
Liberalism does not win by merit. It has none.
It wins because it has no opposition.
You mean... like how the GOP has been offering (only) "DemocRat Lite" policies re: fiscal issues? If so...
I concur.
But one thing (or two things) that the right is espousing that the left is vehemently against is strong borders and illegal immigration control plus a strong national defense and military. Without which we will have no nation to squabble over, ultimately. Considering the hamstrung conditions that Trump and the GOP has had for the past two years, they aren't doing that bad on those main issues. Now... on the spending and national debt/deficit issue? Don't get me started...lol.
Edit: Additionally... that corporate tax cut was something the left abhors. Which I, coincidentally, loved. So the GOP has done a few things right (pardon pun). Let's give credit where due.
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You mean... like how the GOP has been offering (only) "DemocRat Lite" policies re: fiscal issues? If so...
I concur.
But one thing (or two things) that the right is espousing that the left is vehemently against is strong borders and illegal immigration control plus a strong national defense and military. Without which we will have no nation to squabble over, ultimately. Considering the hamstrung conditions that Trump and the GOP has had for the past two years, they aren't doing that bad on those main issues. Now... on the spending and national debt/deficit issue? Don't get me started...lol.
Edit: Additionally... that corporate tax cut was something the left abhors. Which I, coincidentally, loved. So the GOP has done a few things right (pardon pun). Let's give credit where due.
I DO (and HAVE) given credit where it is due - But the end is still the same.
I will assert the hamstrung condition is by design.
You will get no wall. You will get no real immigration controls. Mark my words.
Tax cuts are largely imagined at this point, simply shifting the entry point, with no curb (in fact increase) on spending... and increased costs due to tariffs.
Let me redirect. What came, REALLY, out of the tumultuous Bush administration?
when all his EOs were overturned, and directors were shown the door, What really was left us, long term?
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I've never said that, and a lot of people have never said that. You are again taking the most extreme statements of some Trump supporters -- sometimes that are just intended as hyperbole -- and using that to claim that there is no possibility of cooperation on anything with anyone except those who think exactly as you do.
I keep thinking of the Pharisees that Jesus warned us about. The one who stood praying, "I thank God that I am not as other men."
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Coup, schmoo and boo-hoo.........relentless hot air.
People get the governance they desire and deserve.
Expecting Trump, w/all his warts, to extricate us from
our malaise is embarrassingly dumb; as it's citizens who
have tolerated our malaise for many, many generations.
This world while real, is temporal, despite the pious
hopes and sanctimony of many.
While we are some 225 years on, several nation/states
have long exceeded this duration while making lasting
contributions to the legacy of Mankind, far surpassing ours.
If we do not survive, it will be of our own making and
unconscious impulse to fail.
We will simply be replaced by some one else, the record
of history.
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I DO (and HAVE) given credit where it is due - But the end is still the same.
I will assert the hamstrung condition is by design.
You will get no wall. You will get no real immigration controls. Mark my words.
Tax cuts are largely imagined at this point, simply shifting the entry point, with no curb (in fact increase) on spending... and increased costs due to tariffs.
Let me redirect. What came, REALLY, out of the tumultuous Bush administration?
when all his EOs were overturned, and directors were shown the door, What really was left us, long term?
The dire and debilitating effects of the Obamanation. A nation at each others' throats, more divided than at any time in history.... and a country full of dumbed down socialist-wannabes clamoring for the rats to transform us into a banana republic cesspool. That's what GWB, the globalist, got us. All quite by design, mind you.
I agree that we were screwed and screwed good & plenty. But I have to still have hope that we can pull out of it. There are still plenty of good, decent, God-fearing people in this nation. I have to have faith that they/we can save ourselves from the leftist demons.
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Coup, schmoo and boo-hoo.........relentless hot air.
People get the governance they desire and deserve.
Expecting Trump, w/all his warts, to extricate us from
our malaise is embarrassingly dumb; as it's citizens who
have tolerated our malaise for many, many generations.
This world while real, is temporal, despite the pious
hopes and sanctimony of many.
While we are some 225 years on, several nation/states
have long exceeded this duration while making lasting
contributions to the legacy of Mankind, far surpassing ours.
If we do not survive, it will be of our own making and
unconscious impulse to fail.
We will simply be replaced by some one else, the record
of history.
I hope you feel better after posting that screed @Absalom Pontius Pilate would be proud.
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The dire and debilitating effects of the Obamanation. A nation at each others' throats, more divided than at any time in history.... and a country full of dumbed down socialist-wannabes clamoring for the rats to transform us into a banana republic cesspool. That's what GWB, the globalist, got us. All quite by design, mind you.
I agree that we were screwed and screwed good & plenty. But I have to still have hope that we can pull out of it. There are still plenty of good, decent, God-fearing people in this nation. I have to have faith that they/we can save ourselves from the leftist demons.
Not if all y'all do is react to stimuli. I swear, critical thinking is gone.
Like in (the Judeo-Christian) religion, where the principles are found Laws...
Those laws are true, and cannot be changed. Not one 'jot or tittle'. But one of the advantages in that is that those laws become a touchstone... A bellwether... A tattletale (in the true, sailing sense).
Those that try to add or take away from them are immediately WRONG. To follow them is disaster, guaranteed, and predicted by YHWH himself.
Likewise in Liberty.
The principles of Conservatism are the safeguard of liberty as we have known it. And like Torah is the bellwether in religion, so too the principles of Conservatism in politics, and indeed in way-of-life.
Those who suggest another way are also immediately wrong, and to follow them is certain doom.
You cannot add to truth.
And you cannot take away from it either.
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I hope you feel better after posting that screed @Absalom Pontius Pilate would be proud.
------------------------------------
Since it's an opinion forum; yours is as good as anyone's.
So.................... who is to blame for our malaise??????
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------------------------------------
Since it's an opinion forum; yours is as good as anyone's.
So.................... who is to blame for our malaise??????
Good question. And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.
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------------------------------------
Since it's an opinion forum; yours is as good as anyone's.
So.................... who is to blame for our malaise??????
Well, I personally do not feel a lot of malaise. I feel optimism and hope. I think we are on the right track and I think, with all her flaws, America is the greatest country ever.
I get disgusted at the left and at Hollywood and the media but it comforts me to know that they are in a more inchoate state of rage at Trump than anyone here could possibly be.
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Good question. And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.
Agreed. I've always found it astonishing that 535 members of Congress watched Bammy attempt (and at times succeed) to dismantle this country, yet the majority of them sat with their thumbs up their behinds and did absolutely nothing. Do they not realize that they are just as vulnerable as the rest of us? They are pure fools to thinks that they would be exempt from the ramifications of overthrowing this government and global governance.
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Agreed. I've always found it astonishing that 535 members of Congress watched Bammy attempt (and at times succeed) to dismantle this country, yet the majority of them sat with their thumbs up their behinds and did absolutely nothing. Do they not realize that they are just as vulnerable as the rest of us? They are pure fools to thinks that they would be exempt from the ramifications of overthrowing this government and global governance.
If they think about it at all, they do think they are exempt. They are the elite, and they've worked hard to get there.
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I've never said that, and a lot of people have never said that. You are again taking the most extreme statements of some Trump supporters -- sometimes that are just intended as hyperbole -- and using that to claim that there is no possibility of cooperation on anything with anyone except those who think exactly as you do.
I'm done quantifying my position.
It's not going to change.
I have zero trust in the GOP or the Trump movement and they have made it very clear (well beyond a few simple cases of hyperbole) that they see me as every bit the enemy if not moreso than the Left.
So cooperation with that? Fight alongside that?
No.
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(https://i.imgur.com/QE9QEUM.png)
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That's exactly what the Kingfisher said in Louisiana circa 1932.
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------------------------------------
So.................... who is to blame for our malaise??????
What "malaise"????
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I'm done quantifying my position. It's not going to change.
I have zero trust in the GOP or the Trump movement and they have made it very clear (well beyond a few simple cases of hyperbole) that they see me as every bit the enemy if not moreso than the Left. So cooperation with that? Fight alongside that?
No.
That's all good .... but why do try so hard hour after hour, day after day, year after year to convince others not to fight?
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That's all good .... but why do try so hard hour after hour, day after day, year after year to convince others not to fight?
@INVAR debates his position passionately, as most of us do here, including you, @Right_in_Virginia
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon or even a Trumper to see that he doesn't care if anyone fights are not, the game is already over.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/flipped-chess-15076641.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/QE9QEUM.png)
:amen: :amen: 888high58888
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@INVAR debates his position passionately, as most of us do here, including you, @Right_in_Virginia
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon or even a Trumper to see that he doesn't care if anyone fights are not, the game is already over.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/flipped-chess-15076641.jpg)
As a wise man once said:
He seems to really care...about what, I don’t know.
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@LegalAmerican You hit the nail exactly on the head.
The most virulent Trump critics will not change, will not budge, will not see reason. They are totally wrapped up in their own virtue and their own views of morality.
And yet, and yet, they have the Colossal Nerve to expect Trump to change.
It boggles the mind.
@Emjay
And once again we have an AT who is either clueless or willfully obtuse. We do NOT expect trump to change. Our beef is with the authoritarian wannabes like yourself who simply CANNOT accept that we have a different opinion of trump than you do. M
Are we actively working to undermine him? NO
Do we think that all of the Mueller stuff is crap and a danger to the Republic? YES
Are we going to vote for our local R Congress critter this November to at least try to maintain the majority? YES
Do we think trump has done some things worth a damn? YES
Have we admitted as much? YES
And still that’s not good enough for all of you. I’m sorry, but y’all are doing more to damage trump than any of us because you refuse to accept our God given right to think what we want as Free men. Both you and the Dems want us to crouch down and kiss the hand that feeds us. That will be a cold day in hell. Look in the mirror, you are the problem.
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At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares.
There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have.
It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.
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(https://i.imgur.com/QE9QEUM.png)
Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight.
Then you have already lost the war if you think that Trump is your only weapon. I'm not surprised you would make such a statement because it is not any different than when it was insisted that only Trump can save us and only Trump can do the miracles needed to defeat the Left.
I'm not into political messiahs and monarchy, even if many of you by default in your insistences, are.
That's all good .... but why do try so hard hour after hour, day after day, year after year to convince others not to fight?
Fight?
You you are not 'fighting' at all. You're playing politics. You're busy fighting the symptoms of a war you have already dismissed or surrendered to. You yourself said that Conservatism could never win another election. You're playing a silly sports game and think yourselves minutemen based on how loud you cheer Trump and vote for those with Rs after their name. You castigate the advocacy of the very principles and morality that make liberty and a civil society as intended for us, even possible. You want to fight what in essence is a spiritual war for the soul of a wayward culture with top-down politics and you get upset when character deficiencies, stupidity and apostasy of those same principles are pointed out when your vaunted political messiahs and saviors abridge them.
You're not fighting. You're simply playing a game with your choice of politician to go up against their politician and go about knocking this one to obtain advantage - when the rules of the game itself are so perverted and corrupted that liberty loses no matter what pieces you move that you may think are going to keep you in the game. Meanwhile you're busy ridiculing and bashing those of us fighting a different war against the root causes of why we have arrived at this point in our culture and politics. Your whole focus in on fighting the symptoms due the war you seem to have already surrendered to, or counted as lost. So in that regard, we have the same exact view of each other's chosen battlefield: as a lost cause.
We were a nation forged from the bottom, on up. Not the top on down. You cannot stop where we are going simply by electing people to high office.
Fix the culture, return us to the foundations you and others say can never win another election, and such a people will be able to maintain liberty and select representatives that are faithful to those foundations. Keep voting for neo-monarchs to 'save you' from the clutches of a wicked and despicable ideology - you still lose what you think you are fighting for.
"But should the People of America, once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another and towards foreign nations, which assumes the Language of Justice and moderation while it is practicing Iniquity and Extravagance; and displays in the most captivating manner the charming Pictures of Candour frankness & sincerity while it is rioting in rapine and Insolence: this Country will be the most miserable Habitation in the World. We have no Government armed with Power capable of contending with human Passions unbridled by morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge or Galantry, would break the strongest Cords of our Constitution as a Whale goes through a Net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. " - John Adams October 11, 1798
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[que author=Sanguine link=topic=332738.msg1798656#msg1798656 date=1537479237]
Good question. And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.
[/quote]
-----------------------------
Sound response, yet who decides which vision is correct;
those promoting change or those the status quo???
This is why I assert, those who waive the Constitution as
the answer, are preaching to themselves and justly ignored.
Any disagreement over ideas can only be won by those
w/the superior vision that has been validated by time.
Sadly many would rather just pound the table!!!
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[que author=Sanguine link=topic=332738.msg1798656#msg1798656 date=1537479237]
Good question. And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.
-----------------------------
Sound response, yet who decides which vision is correct; those promoting change or those the status quo???
This is why I assert, those who waive the Constitution as the answer, are preaching to themselves and justly ignored.
Any disagreement over ideas can only be won by those w/the superior vision that has been validated by time.
Sadly many would rather just pound the table!!!
Well, let's reason through this.
Why are we a country? Because many years ago, the founders of this country got together and set it up as a country, and based that establishment upon a written constitution that defines the way the country is set up and the legal basis for being a nation.
As to your comment, I'm against waiving the Constitution. If we do, there is no legal basis for the existence of our country.
You also mention those with "superior vision validated by time". Sounds like the Founders.
Was that what you were proposing?
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@Emjay
And once again we have an AT who is either clueless or willfully obtuse. We do NOT expect trump to change. Our beef is with the authoritarian wannabes like yourself who simply CANNOT accept that we have a different opinion of trump than you do. M
Are we actively working to undermine him? NO
Do we think that all of the Mueller stuff is crap and a danger to the Republic? YES
Are we going to vote for our local R Congress critter this November to at least try to maintain the majority? YES
Do we think trump has done some things worth a damn? YES
Have we admitted as much? YES
And still that’s not good enough for all of you. I’m sorry, but y’all are doing more to damage trump than any of us because you refuse to accept our God given right to think what we want as Free men. Both you and the Dems want us to crouch down and kiss the hand that feeds us. That will be a cold day in hell. Look in the mirror, you are the problem.
Well, golly @Axeslinger I hope you enjoyed beating the hell out of me but I didn't really enjoy being the receiving end.
I am not an Always Trumper. My dislike of Trump got me kicked off of TOS and when I first came on this site prior to the election I was just as full of hate for him.
I've explained numerous times that I was sick with fear that Hillary would be elected and one reason I didn't like Trump was I didn't think he could possibly be elected.
When he was actually elected I was so relieved that I decided to give Trump a chance in my own mind.
I think he's acquitted himself far better than I could have dreamed and, while he's not my cup of cocoa in his personality, I think he's been a dang good President and done far more good things in his term so far than I would have believed possible.
I don't care if you like Trump or not. I don't care if you like me or not.
I was talking about the people who whine for Trump to change while refusing to change themselves.
Trump has been Trump for 72 years. He's not gonna change. If you can't accept him the way he is, that is entirely up to you.
But don't blame me if the forces of evil take over.
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At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares.
There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have.
It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.
@corbe You believe as INVAR does, corbe? That is so interesting. By the way, I haven't seen anyone attack you or get on your azz except maybe me. You are too bland and not irritating like other NTers.
As far as people railing against the Dems, corbe, they are not here. Railing against them would be useless but railing against self-important NTers is just loads of fun.
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Absolutely no one is going to blame you @Emjay for the inevitable demise of our Country, especially if @Right_in_Virginia is still around.
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@INVAR debates his position passionately, as most of us do here, including you, @Right_in_Virginia
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon or even a Trumper to see that he doesn't care if anyone fights are not, the game is already over.
Then he's a damn fool. And no, his God isn't going to save him. God is no excuse for passivity, or hectoring the rest of us to give up.
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@corbe You believe as INVAR does, corbe? That is so interesting. By the way, I haven't seen anyone attack you or get on your azz except maybe me. You are too bland and not irritating like other NTers.
As far as people railing against the Dems, corbe, they are not here. Railing against them would be useless but railing against self-important NTers is just loads of fun.
Corbe bland? Come on, @Emjay, he may be a lot of things, but bland he ain't. :silly:
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I am a card carrying Invarmunist @Emjay.
It comes with a free Costco membership, you should check it out.
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Absolutely no one is going to blame you @Emjay for the inevitable demise of our Country, especially if @Right_in_Virginia is still around.
Seriously, corbe, I know you don't like her but I've never seen RIV be as utterly horrible to anyone as some people have been to me lately.
And I'm not expecting an immediate demise of the country. We are finally on the right track and if we can get you and Invar off your prayer mats to come and help us, we will prevail.
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(http://orig13.deviantart.net/1fdf/f/2015/042/6/f/where_is_your_god_now__by_onyxcarmine-d8hlnki.jpg)
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To address you first point, seriously, @Emjay
More often than not, I value and respect the contribution that @Right_in_Virginia and like minded people, including you, bring here~ just as I do Invar and many, many others, just more aligned on the Invar side.
When you ask me to get off my prayer rug, well, that's a bit disconcerting and makes me even more want to ask you what I wanted to yesterday, 'Who pizzed in your Wheaties?'
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To address you first point, seriously, @Emjay
More often than not, I value and respect the contribution that @Right_in_Virginia and like minded people, including you, bring here~ just as I do Invar and many, many others, just more aligned on the Invar side.
When you ask me to get off my prayer rug, well, that's a bit disconcerting and makes me even more want to ask you what I wanted to yesterday, 'Who pizzed in your Wheaties?'
Apparently someone did because I have ticked off more than the usual number of people today.
You said you agree with @INVAR about things and I've never seen a post of his that wasn't touting his own morality and comparing it favorably to the morality of others, especially Trump supporters. And he is constantly playing the religion card so I thought maybe you were with him on that also.
Really, I was just kidding you. If it hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I need all the friends I can get as I lost 3 more yesterday and today.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here @Emjay and proclaim that I'm not a very Religious person and though I see that angle in Invar's posts, and many other's here, It doesn't bother me. I'm truly grateful for all of their contributions and insight. Some of my best Friends here are Christians.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here @Emjay and proclaim that I'm not a very Religious person and though I see that angle in Invar's posts, and many other's here, It doesn't bother me. I'm truly grateful for all of their contributions and insight. Some of my best Friends here are Christians.
Hey, babe, I've been a Christian all my life and I've studied the teachings of Jesus many, many years in many Bible classes.
True Christianity does not involve being like the Pharisee who said, I thank God that I am not as other men, but in loving others and accepting them.
So I'll admit to not being the kind of Christian I ought to be but I don't think he is that good an example either.
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For purposes of clarity....is that a yes or a no.
Noting the cranial extraction was suspended unfinished, the attention was none the less provided.
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Hey, babe, I've been a Christian all my life and I've studied the teachings of Jesus many, many years in many Bible classes.
True Christianity does not involve being like the Pharisee who said, I thank God that I am not as other men, but in loving others and accepting them.
So I'll admit to not being the kind of Christian I ought to be but I don't think he is that good an example either.
Yesterday my mom's (non gay Lutheran demonination) Minister came to see her in the hospital, took out his Ipad and prayed, as he waked out I mumbled something about Jimmy Swaggart louder than I thought I had, my two devout sisters let me have it with both barrels as my maw lay there on a Morphine drip, in G_d's hands of course. Still a little apprehensive about the subject.
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Yesterday my mom's (non gay Lutheran demonination) Minister came to see her in the hospital, took out his Ipad and prayed, as he waked out I mumbled something about Jimmy Swaggart louder than I thought I had, my two devout sisters let me have it with both barrels as my maw lay there on a Morphine drip, in G_d's hands of course. Still a little apprehensive about the subject.
That was so not the right time for that, corbe and I think you know it. If this was Jimmy Swaggart himself and he was giving comfort to your mom, that would have been a good time to shut up.
And, by the way, Jimmy was a really good gospel singer.
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Yea, I get that @Emjay, she got home today and neither sister called me to ask when I was coming over. Did I mention they are all a bunch of trollable Trumpers?
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Well, I personally do not feel a lot of malaise. I feel optimism and hope. I think we are on the right track and I think, with all her flaws, America is the greatest country ever.
I get disgusted at the left and at Hollywood and the media but it comforts me to know that they are in a more inchoate state of rage at Trump than anyone here could possibly be.
--------------------------------
So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
#Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
#Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
#Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
#Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
#Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
#Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
#Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!
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Well, let's reason through this.
Why are we a country? Because many years ago, the founders of this country got together and set it up as a country, and based that establishment upon a written constitution that defines the way the country is set up and the legal basis for being a nation.
As to your comment, I'm against waiving the Constitution. If we do, there is no legal basis for the existence of our country.
You also mention those with "superior vision validated by time". Sounds like the Founders.
Was that what you were proposing?
---------------------------------------
Not proposing anything specific, simply exchanging ideas w/you.
Yet referencing the Founders is both laudable and powerful;
rather than pounding the table.
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Not proposing anything specific, simply exchanging ideas w/you.
Yet referencing the Founders is both laudable and powerful;
rather than pounding the table.
:beer:
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At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares.
There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have.
It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.
That's unfair, we "Trumpers" are great at multi-tasking.
You are angry that Trump supporters have pressured and criticized you for your position...I get it. Heck, I deal with NT folks (not the majority of them, but a significant minority) nearly every day who are spiteful, angry and who thrive only on ad hominem and false-cliche'd arguments. I would likely feel as you do were I in your shoes, initially, but holding to a position that's unsupportable simply to spite people who's behavior you resent is...perhaps...not the path of wisdom.
Perhaps you should look at the words of the great Mahatma Gandhi and apply it to this situation..."I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."
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--------------------------------
So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
#Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
#Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
#Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
#Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
#Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
#Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
#Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!
Thank you sooooo much. I had no idea @Absalom that the Greeks created anything at all. So interesting to learn all that.
I was talking about America in terms of how great a country it is to the common people who live here. I don't think any other country in history has been so kind to all its citizens with some notable but rare exceptions.
Your post was chock full of hubris and condescension.
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--------------------------------
So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
#Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
#Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
#Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
#Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
#Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
#Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
#Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!
Along side early Rome, America is the greatest model of an internally peaceful and internationally powerful Republic the world has ever seen. My MA is in Ancient History and I'm a "fanatical" student of Greece and Rome...and your "list" is a great recitation of the tremendous accomplishments of the very Pagans who were the first great proponents of the concepts of Democracy, Morality and Reason.
No one can expound more profoundly on morality than Plato, Cicero, Aurelius and Julian (the Apostate)...men who make Augustine read like a pedantic 3rd grader.
America, via the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and the British Common Law, is the natural offspring of Greek moral and political thought. Morality and ethics are not tied to any particular religious belief, but thrive when reason and philosophy are freely ascendant in a MODERATELY religious society...which is why we have had deeply moralistic pagan societies and corrupt Christian and Islamic states. And vice versa, of course. That said, the kind of moderate Christian ethos that tied together the Founding Fathers, was an essential moral underpinning to our Constitution and our ensuing governance...and it still is. Should that underpinning dissipate, or alternately grow to encompass our governance, the Republic is sure to fail...a balance must always be maintained in which religious belief influences citizens to make moral choices without directly inculcating government with its particular tenets.
In summary, yes...America IS the greatest ever.
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Along side early Rome, America is the greatest model of an internally peaceful and internationally powerful Republic the world has ever seen. My MA is in Ancient History and I'm a "fanatical" student of Greece and Rome...and your "list" is a great recitation of the tremendous accomplishments of the very Pagans who were the first great proponents of the concepts of Democracy, Morality and Reason.
No one can expound more profoundly on morality than Plato, Cicero, Aurelius and Julian (the Apostate)...men who make Augustine read like a pedantic 3rd grader.
America, via the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and the British Common Law, is the natural offspring of Greek moral and political thought. Morality and ethics are not tied to any particular religious belief, but thrive when reason and philosophy are freely ascendant in a MODERATELY religious society...which is why we have had deeply moralistic pagan societies and corrupt Christian and Islamic states. And vice versa, of course. That said, the kind of moderate Christian ethos that tied together the Founding Fathers, was an essential moral underpinning to our Constitution and our ensuing governance...and it still is. Should that underpinning dissipate, or alternately grow to encompass our governance, the Republic is sure to fail...a balance must always be maintained in which religious belief influences citizens to make moral choices without directly inculcating government with its particular tenets.
In summary, yes...America IS the greatest ever.
Woo hoo @Mesaclone I tried to hit him with some much-needed sarcasm but you did it with facts.
Thank you so much.
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Thank you sooooo much. I had no idea @Absalom that the Greeks created anything at all. So interesting to learn all that.
I was talking about America in terms of how great a country it is to the common people who live here. I don't think any other country in history has been so kind to all its citizens with some notable but rare exceptions.
Your post was chock full of hubris and condescension.
-------------------------------
Obviously anything involving knowledge sends you over the cliff.
Sadly predictable. Bye-bye.
P.S. Don't forget to replace your table.
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Obviously anything involving knowledge sends you over the cliff.
Sadly predictable. Bye-bye.
P.S. Don't forget to replace your table.
You just got your azz handed to you by Mesaclone so it might be a good idea to shut up.
By the way, I am a relatively educated person and quite familiar with the Greeks, but, hey, they didn't invent the iPhone, did they.
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-------------------------------
Obviously anything involving knowledge sends you over the cliff.
Sadly predictable. Bye-bye.
P.S. Don't forget to replace your table.
I'm amazed that you show your face around here after you have been sent to the woodshed. I notice you did not reply to @Mesaclone since he is obviously more knowledgeable than you, along with being more just plain sensible.
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-------------------------------
Obviously anything involving knowledge sends you over the cliff.
Sadly predictable. Bye-bye.
P.S. Don't forget to replace your table.
Plus @Absalom you cannot even grasp sarcasm.
To think you went on this rant because I said I wasn't in the grips of malaise and that I think America is a great country.
Maybe you should try living in Greece.
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@Emjay Do you abuse your Maid? asking for a friend.
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@Emjay Do you abuse your Maid? asking for a friend.
Yeah, right, corbe. If I had a maid, I would kiss her ring.
How about you? Also asking for a friend.
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Emjay, what the heck is all that? Wow.
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Yes, I abuse my Maid, she actually enjoys the lavishly laid flattery so much she gives me a discount (or so she claims).
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Yeah, right, corbe. If I had a maid, I would kiss her ring.
How about you? Also asking for a friend.
Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.
When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion.
You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.
@Emjay
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Hallelujah. At least one more, cranial extraction.
Hallelujah. " @INVAR is a trumper." Add it to that ridiculous list of Trump accomplishment three or four times. Put it right under "Stopped North Korean Nukes." If I admit the press is biased, and maybe it is his real hair can I join too?
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Apparently rumors of a successful cranial extraction, were premature.
That's no excuse not to add it to the list of Trump accomplishments.
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Not my point. Look to the right, and what the right is espousing.
Liberalism does not win by merit. It has none.
It wins because it has no opposition.
@roamer_1
Succinct, logical, inarguable, and devastating. I wish I wrote it.
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Along side early Rome, America is the greatest model of an internally peaceful and internationally powerful Republic the world has ever seen. My MA is in Ancient History and I'm a "fanatical" student of Greece and Rome...and your "list" is a great recitation of the tremendous accomplishments of the very Pagans who were the first great proponents of the concepts of Democracy, Morality and Reason.
No one can expound more profoundly on morality than Plato, Cicero, Aurelius and Julian (the Apostate)...men who make Augustine read like a pedantic 3rd grader.
@Mesaclone
That's because Augustine was a pedantic 3rd grader.
I understand where your thinking comes from, as Greco-Roman thought undoubtedly forms the basis of what the western philosophers call 'reason'... But in that I would point out a certain romanticized view... While both were successful enough to produce an elite class that had time enough to sit on their fat rumps and ponder their navels, both were also extremely brutal caste driven societies, whose underclasses and slaves suffered bitterly in order to sustain those heightened seats for those glorified asses. It is little wonder that both of these are identified as 'beast' systems in the Word.
As the West would have it, there was nothing but grunting and farting before Pythagoras penned his worthy tomes, but that is largely described by the hubris of our historians, leaning upon earlier works in the West, which were by every account, ignorant of history beyond that described by Rome, as the West crawled from the muddy and bloody depths of the dark ages, to stand once again... No doubt the educated classes sitting in the rubble pined for the Pax Romana, and forgot entirely that it had been imposed upon them at the tip of very brutal sword.
And yet all the truly great works in history - Those hallmarks of culture that many would point to, suggest that the Greeks were hardly the start of things... The pyramids put Pythagoras, Euclid, and even Isaac Newton to shame, in their construction, and confound the best minds all the way to today in their construction. And I do not mean merely the pyramids of Egypt, but the pyramids everywhere - And they are everywhere.
We could no more build them today than we could lift and transport the 3 sisters of Baalbek. It is beyond us even now.
Likewise in philosophy. Torah extends far before the Greeks, as evidenced in the ground, and contains all the prerequisites of a Republican form, albeit designed around familial patriarchs. Zoroaster likewise, came far before the Greeks, to name just two.
America, via the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and the British Common Law, is the natural offspring of Greek moral and political thought. Morality and ethics are not tied to any particular religious belief, but thrive when reason and philosophy are freely ascendant in a MODERATELY religious society...which is why we have had deeply moralistic pagan societies and corrupt Christian and Islamic states.
In part, that is true.
I have often said that an American Conservative's conscience should rightly be formed by civil-libertariansim in friendly opposition to the Judeo-Christian Ethic... And it is through that prism that reason can be applied.
But let's not forget which one of those two inherently marks the culture - It is ethos that forms a society, and makes it governable. not reason. Law is a function of ethic, more so that reason.
And vice versa, of course. That said, the kind of moderate Christian ethos that tied together the Founding Fathers, was an essential moral underpinning to our Constitution and our ensuing governance...and it still is. Should that underpinning dissipate, or alternately grow to encompass our governance, the Republic is sure to fail...a balance must always be maintained in which religious belief influences citizens to make moral choices without directly inculcating government with its particular tenets.
In that we agree, most profoundly, to the extent it can be done.
:beer:
In summary, yes...America IS the greatest ever.
And that.
:beer:
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Absolutely no one is going to blame you @Emjay for the inevitable demise of our Country, especially if @Right_in_Virginia is still around.
@corbe Uncalled for. I'm actually ashamed at how hard I'm laughing.
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Noting the cranial extraction was suspended unfinished, the attention was none the less provided.
3 posts - 3 "cranial extraction" insults. It was even funnier the 3rd time @truth_seeker
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@corbe Uncalled for. I'm actually ashamed at how hard I'm laughing.
You should stop by our home when we're drinking our morning coffee and reviewing your late night spewing. We feel zero shame over our snot laughing. In fact, we share it and the reasons with rational people across the District.
And we ALL thank you. 88devil 888high58888
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Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.
When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion.
You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.
@Emjay
Hear! Hear! :beer:
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I am aware of my trolling habits and have been admonished by the Mods on multiple occasions.
My Family conducted an Intervention weeks ago and I am currently on the waiting list for Hill Country Rehab for trollers.
Wish me luck.
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I am aware of my trolling habits and have been admonished by the Mods on multiple occasions.
My Family conducted an Intervention weeks ago and I am currently on the waiting list for Hill Country Rehab for trollers.
Wish me luck.
Rehab - Yeah... they're pretty good.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g9yLvd7G5M#)
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@roamer_1
Succinct, logical, inarguable, and devastating. I wish I wrote it.
:beer:
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You should stop by our home when we're drinking our morning coffee and reviewing your late night spewing. We feel zero shame over our snot laughing. In fact, we share it and the reasons with rational people across the District.
And we ALL thank you. 88devil 888high58888
Wait, you share your snot?
:3:
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I am aware of my trolling habits and have been admonished by the Mods on multiple occasions.
My Family conducted an Intervention weeks ago and I am currently on the waiting list for Hill Country Rehab for trollers.
Wish me luck.
(http://m.memegen.com/nx9i0h.jpg)
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@Mesaclone
That's because Augustine was a pedantic 3rd grader.
I understand where your thinking comes from, as Greco-Roman thought undoubtedly forms the basis of what the western philosophers call 'reason'... But in that I would point out a certain romanticized view... While both were successful enough to produce an elite class that had time enough to sit on their fat rumps and ponder their navels, both were also extremely brutal caste driven societies, whose underclasses and slaves suffered bitterly in order to sustain those heightened seats for those glorified asses. As was American society, particularly in the South, at the time of the Constitution's signing. While the excesses of 18th century America do not reach the levels of Greek and Roman society, it should not be disregarded that, though ours was a "class" rather than a "caste" driven system, it involved an underclass of slaves and wage serfs. It is little wonder that both of these are identified as 'beast' systems in the Word.
As the West would have it, there was nothing but grunting and farting before Pythagoras penned his worthy tomes, but that is largely described by the hubris of our historians, leaning upon earlier works in the West, which were by every account, ignorant of history beyond that described by Rome, as the West crawled from the muddy and bloody depths of the dark ages, to stand once again... No doubt the educated classes sitting in the rubble pined for the Pax Romana, and forgot entirely that it had been imposed upon them at the tip of very brutal sword.
And yet all the truly great works in history - Those hallmarks of culture that many would point to, suggest that the Greeks were hardly the start of things... The pyramids put Pythagoras, Euclid, and even Isaac Newton to shame, in their construction, and confound the best minds all the way to today in their construction. And I do not mean merely the pyramids of Egypt, but the pyramids everywhere - And they are everywhere. You are correct, of course, that the Greeks did not spring from the ether...and that great works were achieved prior to their rise...sadly, much of what came before was simply lost to the perils of war, disease and societal collapse. Greek thought certainly was drawn from that which preceded it....Egyptian, Sumerian, Minoan, etcetera...its preservation made it a foundation upon which both Rome and Enlightenment thought could build.
We could no more build them today than we could lift and transport the 3 sisters of Baalbek. It is beyond us even now.Its not beyond us in a physical sense, though the desire and drive to build such monuments may be lacking. Walking on the moon, for example, is every bit the engineering miracle that the pyramids were.
Likewise in philosophy. Torah extends far before the Greeks, as evidenced in the ground, and contains all the prerequisites of a Republican form, albeit designed around familial patriarchs. Zoroaster likewise, came far before the Greeks, to name just two.
While Torah and Zoroastrianism are not irrelevant to Western thought, its a real stretch to argue that they contain "all" the prerequisites of Republican form...as both are deeply patriarchal AND Monarchical in nature. So on this point, I would have to mostly disagree with your assertion.
In part, that is true.
I have often said that an American Conservative's conscience should rightly be formed by civil-libertariansim in friendly opposition to the Judeo-Christian Ethic... And it is through that prism that reason can be applied.
But let's not forget which one of those two inherently marks the culture - It is ethos that forms a society, and makes it governable. not reason. Law is a function of ethic, more so that reason. We could debate this point ad infinitum, but I would argue that I fall more on the spectrum of believing law arises out of utilitarianism...though it clearly advances and is enhanced by ethics and reason and cannot exist independent of these traits.
In that we agree, most profoundly, to the extent it can be done.
:beer:
And that.
:beer:
Well stated...very well stated. Kudos and :beer:to you in return!
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So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
#Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
#Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
#Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
#Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
#Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
#Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
#Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!
It should be pointed out that the Greeks "borrowed" quite a lot from the Egyptians.
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You should stop by our home when we're drinking our morning coffee and reviewing your late night spewing. We feel zero shame over our snot laughing. In fact, we share it and the reasons with rational people across the District.
And we ALL thank you. 88devil 888high58888
That is damning criticism from your personalities. 88sorry88
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Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.
When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion.
You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.
@Emjay
@Mesaclone Thank you so much. I appreciate everything you write and it restores at least part of my faith on the odd assorted group of humanity gathered here.
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Emjay, what the heck is all that? Wow.
Nothing but @corbe being corbe and me trying really hard not to kick his butt.
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It seems like only yesterday @Emjay that I was your favorite, now, of all times, with my ol lady in rehab you're going to throw me under the bus. You Trumpers never cease to amaze me at how low your loyalty quotient really is.
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Nothing but @corbe being corbe and me trying really hard not to kick his butt.
OK, we all need out butts kicked every now and then.
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Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.
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Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.
No, I can't have it said I drove anyone to HuffPo.
0052
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Et Tu @Sanguine I'll go back over to huffpo where I share a commonality.
Even though @Emjay tried very hard, and IMHO actually succeeded in every way measurable, to not kick your ass? You also lack gratitude @corbe
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@Once-Ler
Deep down @Emjay is still a Texas Woman and they scare the $hit out of me, sometimes.
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As was American society, particularly in the South, at the time of the Constitution's signing. While the excesses of 18th century America do not reach the levels of Greek and Roman society, it should not be disregarded that, though ours was a "class" rather than a "caste" driven system, it involved an underclass of slaves and wage serfs.
@Mesaclone
I will return the volley on this a bit, though I accept your point. But in that acceptance, two things should be remembered:
Firstly, a class system is inherently more fluid than a caste system, though ours was a hybrid of both to start with... Free men being class-born, and undesirables being caste-born. Putting the racism of that aside for a moment (not to ignore it), class was an extraordinary new thing, creditable largely to the rise of the English middle class - A thing the elitists have tried to stifle ever since, it having trounced feudalism, which is the last caste system that gave the elites their due.
Which brings me to my foremost point, in that:
Because of this weird eclectic mix... The Anglo-Celtic Common Law, The Judeo-Christian Ethic, the rise of class over caste... Because of the confluence of these things, it became incumbent upon the governments of both the British and (especially) the Yanks, to finally put their money where their mouths were, and to defend at last the premise that all men are created equal in the sight of God, and that He alone has endowed them with inalienable rights...
The rough start be damned... If there is one thing that has sprung uniquely from the more Protestant strains of the West, it is that one insurmountable statement, pealing forth like thunder, echoing down the halls of history - And that, despite all the claims otherwise, is very profound - As profound as any other thing - and creditable to Britain and even more, to America. There simply is not an argument otherwise.
[Pyramids, 3 sisters of Baalbek...]
Its not beyond us in a physical sense [...]
Yes in fact, it is. We have no means by which to construct cyclopean architecture, nor the means to quarry, move, or erect such massive stones. Not to mention the remarkable precision of fit. We cannot do it.
[...]
though the desire and drive to build such monuments may be lacking. Walking on the moon, for example, is every bit the engineering miracle that the pyramids were.
Accepted... to the point that it can be, not knowing how they did what they did... Even so, walking on the moon is a tremendous feat.
While Torah and Zoroastrianism are not irrelevant to Western thought, its a real stretch to argue that they contain "all" the prerequisites of Republican form...as both are deeply patriarchal AND Monarchical in nature. So on this point, I would have to mostly disagree with your assertion.
To be specific, I gave that value to Torah, and not to Zoroaster. And I will challenge you on that.
Firstly, Torah was given without a king, and YHWH expressly told them they would regret it when they asked for one.
And a patriarchate need not be a bad thing - Families within Houses, Houses within Clans, Clans within Tribes... Governance at the gate by judicial elders (county seat, appeal outside of the patriarchal structure), a supreme appellate court in the Sanhedrin (and lastly the King)... That is Representative Republic in form, if not like to our own, still very familiar, to include election, to a degree, as needed. My own family runs quite the same way, and historically, at least in the Northern Tribes, this is the most natural form of governance.
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The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate. Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated. That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.
Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!
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The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate. Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated. That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.
Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!
You have that exactly right. By the way, welcome to TBR.
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It seems like only yesterday @Emjay that I was your favorite, now, of all times, with my ol lady in rehab you're going to throw me under the bus. You Trumpers never cease to amaze me at how low your loyalty quotient really is.
Believe me, @corbe if I didn't have a soft spot for you, you would have seen my dark side way before this.
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Emjay,
Corbe has gone into full petulant troll mode so its futile trying to have a discussion with him. Some get angry when they've lost an argument...some disappear from the board and presumably sulk...some engage in ranting and diatribes...Corbe trolls.
When he emerges from his butt healing phase, rational discussion will once again be possible. As for Absalom, seems more like a kid who just studied a small section on ancient history...ran to Wiki to get a list of ancient achievements...and then slapped them into a post in which only a few of the items he used were salient to the discussion.
You are a clear and reasonable thinker and I enjoy nearly everything you write. Keep doing what you do and know that most here greatly enjoy you.
@Emjay
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After my bye-bye, <Nope>, predictably wouldn't let go.
Thought better of you given your reasonable initial comments but obviously
you couldn't restrain yourself. Apparently, you two have a twin persona.
For the record, I'm approaching 80 and lectured in Classics for an extended
period at Trinity College, Dublin. It's in Europe.
There my appreciation for the achievements of the founders of western civilization
was developed, after lengthy reflection.
But stay pure and enlightened; as lead drummers in the "We are the Greatest"
marching band!!!
@Absalom, we have some very opinionated and passionate members here. Sometimes that passion gets in our way and we don't always express ourselves in the best way possible, but we do ask that members not make personal insults. Personal insults shut down communication and redirects the conversation into unproductive sniping. The Mods don't always catch them, so please be encouraged to report comments that cross that line.
I appreciate your well-though out comments and point of view.
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It should be pointed out that the Greeks "borrowed" quite a lot from the Egyptians.
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Borrowed specifically what (description, date and location)???
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The president of the USA has every right to declassify anything he deems appropriate. Anyone standing in the way of his order should be immediately terminated. That includes Wray, who I think is a POS, Rosenstein, who I consider a traitor, and Sessions, who I consider the swamp's inside man.
Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff and the other dummy that signed this document combined are not worth a good BM!
We all agree, and VOTE OUT as many RINOS as we can. Grassley, McConnell=Kentucky, Collins=Maine, Murkowski=Alaska. I have no idea what is wrong with SESSIONS,,L Graham, gave TRUMP a warning that if he removed Sessions, he would have hell to pay, as NONE OF CONGRESS WOULD VOTE FOR ANY OF HIS POLICY'S. VOTE OUT AS MANY RINO"s as we can. NO, rino incumbents.
So president TRUMP, is doing what he can with this handicap hanging over his head. Keeping us safe & prosperous, till we get in MORE REAL REPUBLICANS who have his steel b@lls! Did you hear the U.N. speech ? Magnificent, brave!
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Borrowed specifically what (description, date and location)???
How about you stay in 2018? magapill.com
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How about you stay in 2018? magapill.com
Those who fail to remember history are doomed to forever repeat it. It's like the Bill Murry movie, Groundhog's Day, only worse.
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Those who fail to remember history are doomed to forever repeat it. It's like the Bill Murry movie, Groundhog's Day, only worse.
lol We are already IN IT. REPEATING COMMUNISM, in our country by democrats, & those who want to control us.
Socialism. I would rather that poster post what happens to people who support socialism & communism from the past.
Not back to ancient times. I could support that post, not a history lesson from B.C.
Did you even read that list? PLATO. Nothing to do about repeating events.
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I forgot the other part: Those who DO remember history are forced to repeat it by the fools who forget.