Updated. Trump offers amnesty.
I didn't hear it that way, maybe I missed something...
I heard two sets of temporary protection measures from deportation:
1. for 700-800,000 DACA recipients, 3 years of legislative protection from deportation, same renewal program, work permits, etc.
2. extend temporary deportation protection for 200-300,000 TPS individuals, 12-18 month renewals
Like I said, I may have missed something, but that is all that I hoid on that front.
DACA, TPS = AMNESTY.
Lisa Mei Crowley @LisaMei62Does it matter? Pelosi rejected it before he even said it.
To those crying about amnesty being a part of the deal, that's not what he said. He offered a 3-yr extension on DACA/TPS while they work on immigration reform. He knows what he's doing. He had to make this public offer knowing they'd say NO before declaring a national emergency.
4:33 PM - 19 Jan 2019
Only using the most hysterical definition of the word. There is no path to citizenship involved, just some temporary deportation stays (for those that comply with the regulations).
Does it matter? Pelosi rejected it before he even said it.
Ironically, saved by Pelosi.
Not really saved. He already proposed it.
I get that, but Pelosi and Durbin already turned up their noses ... I look for them to propose additional benefits for illegals....we can only hope that Trump will reject it.
This deal would codify obummers EO on DACA, next up PACA if that's not already included, it's stupid just as his next option is: declaring a National Emergency. Looks more and more like that Master Negotiator label was false, too.
@corbe why do you feel that declaring a National Emergency would be a stupid option? I see it as his only option.
It practically is his only option left, IMHO @libertybele
That border has been there for 166 years and has never been an emergency, perhaps if he could just remove the incentive for them to come here by removing employment opportunities (Everify) and benefits (removing sanctuary city status) and address the Visa overstays by beefing up the Technology and more Border Personnel, that is my favorite option but neither the dems nor the GOP want that so it won't happen, declare the 'National Emergency', feed the peasants more Bread and Circuses, the more things change the more they stay the same.....etc......
It practically is his only option left, IMHO @libertybele
That border has been there for 166 years and has never been an emergency, perhaps if he could just remove the incentive for them to come here by removing employment opportunities (Everify) and benefits (removing sanctuary city status) and address the Visa overstays by beefing up the Technology and more Border Personnel, that is my favorite option but neither the dems nor the GOP want that so it won't happen, declare the 'National Emergency', feed the peasants more Bread and Circuses, the more things change the more they stay the same.....etc......
Only using the most hysterical definition of the word. There is no path to citizenship involved, just some temporary deportation stays (for those that comply with the regulations).
It practically is his only option left, IMHO @libertybele
That border has been there for 166 years and has never been an emergency, perhaps if he could just remove the incentive for them to come here by removing employment opportunities (Everify) and benefits (removing sanctuary city status) and address the Visa overstays by beefing up the Technology and more Border Personnel, that is my favorite option but neither the dems nor the GOP want that so it won't happen, declare the 'National Emergency', feed the peasants more Bread and Circuses, the more things change the more they stay the same.....etc......
Thanks for a reasonable take @EdJames You are exactly right.
This plan was basically announced yesterday and our two little fierce border warriors @Chosen Daughter and @libertybele have chosen to go off the rails in mischaracterizing the plan.
By withdrawing their support for Trump and for this proffered plan, they are making a compromise impossible. Fortunately, they do not speak for everyone.
Thanks for a reasonable take @EdJames You are exactly right.
This plan was basically announced yesterday and our two little fierce border warriors @Chosen Daughter and @libertybele have chosen to go off the rails in mischaracterizing the plan.
By withdrawing their support for Trump and for this proffered plan, they are making a compromise impossible. Fortunately, they do not speak for everyone.
You oh wise one @Emjay, who is all knowing and re-interprets what the President is doing *****rollingeyes*****; DO NOT put words in my mouth nor make assumptions. I have in no way withdrawn my support for President Trump and his stance on the border wall. I stand very adamant on NO amnesty and not compromising our sovereignty. IF you see that as withdrawing support for Trump's wall so be it. I'll be damn if I give anyone a pass who would compromise on the sovereignty of this country.
You don't seem to comprehend the ramifications of amnesty, DACA, Dreamers, etc., on our country. I've explained it before, I've laid out the stats numerous times. If you don't agree or understand, that's fine. However, don't sit and tell people what I do or do not stand for.
Thanks for a reasonable take @EdJames You are exactly right.
This plan was basically announced yesterday and our two little fierce border warriors @Chosen Daughter and @libertybele have chosen to go off the rails in mischaracterizing the plan.
By withdrawing their support for Trump and for this proffered plan, they are making a compromise impossible. Fortunately, they do not speak for everyone.
@corbe . . . you are my favorite NTer.
Didn't mean to offend you @libertybele but it was somewhat disquieting to come on here and see you and others start wailing and gnashing of teeth because of a compromise that you knew was coming from yesterday.
I know you are passionate about the wall but no more passionate than Trump is. I don't like DACA or Dreamers but we have those now and this is a short extension for them which will be worth it if we can get a compromise on the wall.
I would not presume to tell you what you stand for but I would presume to tell you that you are wrong to dismiss this compromise without giving it a chance.
Because we do live in the real world and there's no use in expecting we can magically get something from the dems that they are dead set against giving.
If the Senate passes this bill and it goes to the House and passes, it will at least be some movement and may end up being a good thing in the long run.
If I could give Trump super powers I would, but we can't do that. What we can do is support him now.
Compromising and agreeing to amnesty in any form is WRONG! Losing our sovereignty will be the eventual result -- there is NO second chance on that. None. Take a look at Germany and France.
I do support President Trump's stance on the wall. I do not support his offer of amnesty. IF the DEMS agree to extending 'protections' to DACA for 3 years ... then what?? What do you think is going to happen if the DEMS get control of both Houses or the oval office.
Secondly, the courts have already ruled for the extension of DACA protections ... so he's extending what the courts have already ruled on?? Pelosi has already pointed that out.
Thirdly, the Gang of 20 is supposed to be presenting their 'compromise' Monday -- Trump has already offered amnesty ... you can bet they will want even more.
BTW, silly to even suggest Trump has super powers. Really @Emjay? He's not a god.
Only using the most hysterical definition of the word. There is no path to citizenship involved, just some temporary deportation stays (for those that comply with the regulations).
It practically is his only option left, IMHO @libertybele
That border has been there for 166 years and has never been an emergency, perhaps if he could just remove the incentive for them to come here by removing employment opportunities (Everify) and benefits (removing sanctuary city status) and address the Visa overstays by beefing up the Technology and more Border Personnel, that is my favorite option but neither the dems nor the GOP want that so it won't happen, declare the 'National Emergency', feed the peasants more Bread and Circuses, the more things change the more they stay the same.....etc......
@corbe
Great post. As long as Trump demands a wall, and the rats demand no wall, they can wash their hands of the matter and point the finger of blame at the other side. Then they don't have to hire immigration judges, build detention space, or any of the things you mention...all necessary parts of a solution. Mean while our border patrol and coast guard work without pay and all of the Justice Department's immigration judges have been furloughed.
#MAGA
I didn't hear it that way, maybe I missed something...@EdJames
I heard two sets of temporary protection measures from deportation:
1. for 700-800,000 DACA recipients, 3 years of legislative protection from deportation, same renewal program, work permits, etc.
2. extend temporary deportation protection for 200-300,000 TPS individuals, 12-18 month renewals. Like I said, I may have missed something, but that is all that I hoid on that front.
I didn't hear it that way, maybe I missed something...
I heard two sets of temporary protection measures from deportation:
1. for 700-800,000 DACA recipients, 3 years of legislative protection from deportation, same renewal program, work permits, etc.
2. extend temporary deportation protection for 200-300,000 TPS individuals, 12-18 month renewals
Like I said, I may have missed something, but that is all that I hoid on that front.
Corbe an NTer? That's an odd thing to say considering all the times he commended Trump when Trump did something Conservative.
For the umpteenth time, (Not AT) is not the same thing as (NT). Apparently, some people here are simply unteachable.
@EdJames
You have it right, he is giving only "temporary" extensions and that is why Dems will not agree. He is giving them a small bit of the carrot that will go away in the near future.
I have a problem, and I don't see this as Dem or Republican, with sending children, no matter their age now, back to a country they do not know as they were brought here as children.
A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem. Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.
Trump has already offered amnesty ...
I absolutely agree. We are inviting them. But realistically none of these things are on the table. And we have a liberal Congress.
Didn't mean to offend you @libertybele but it was somewhat disquieting to come on here and see you and others start wailing and gnashing of teeth because of a compromise that you knew was coming from yesterday.
No, the President has not proposed or offered amnesty.
Corbe an NTer? That's an odd thing to say considering all the times he commended Trump when Trump did something Conservative.
For the umpteenth time, (Not AT) is not the same thing as (NT). Apparently, some people here are simply unteachable.
@Chosen Daughter
I find it hugely ironic that all of you screaming amnesty refused to vote Trump and refused to help the
GOP keep the house. In essence YOU PUT THE DEMS IN CONTROL and now you want to blame Trump?
Yall are insane.
Even during the campaign Trump said DACA people would be dealt with in a humane way. No way in hell are we going to deport folks that grew up here and were bought here as little children. That is not going to happen.
Except at one time, he said they would be deported.
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=L01yYp3vTbA&t=8s0#)
A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem. Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.
Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.
@Chosen Daughter
I find it hugely ironic that all of you screaming amnesty refused to vote Trump and refused to help the
GOP keep the house. In essence YOU PUT THE DEMS IN CONTROL and now you want to blame Trump?
Yall are insane.
I would agree, except we live in an increasingly identity based, hyphenated American, Balkanized society. Regardless of circumstance, they are not American citizens. If anything, as a bloc, they’re the best hope for their native countries to change and be stable democracies.
I find it hugely ironic that all of you screaming amnesty refused to vote Trump
. . . and refused to help the GOP keep the house.
In essence YOU PUT THE DEMS IN CONTROL and now you want to blame Trump?
@EdJames
You have it right, he is giving only "temporary" extensions and that is why Dems will not agree. He is giving them a small bit of the carrot that will go away in the near future.
I have a problem, and I don't see this as Dem or Republican, with sending children, no matter their age now, back to a country they do not know as they were brought here as children.
A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem. Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.
It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.
If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.
Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.
Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.
The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.
The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.
It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.
If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.
Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.
Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.
The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.
The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
@EdJames
You have it right, he is giving only "temporary" extensions and that is why Dems will not agree. He is giving them a small bit of the carrot that will go away in the near future.
I have a problem, and I don't see this as Dem or Republican, with sending children, no matter their age now, back to a country they do not know as they were brought here as children.
Do you have a problem with illegal immigrants bringing children from the only country they know here?
A number of you will jump on me about the children brought here against their will, but I don't see this as a "political" problem. Consider yourself if you were taken, when a child, to another country and you grew up in this new country, your "world", your ties to your life are in this present world; it is all you know - I see it as inhumane to send you or one of these people to a new world where they have nothing.
These "parents" who bring their children thousands of miles outside their country expose them to the very worst criminals there are. They are giving their young daughters birth control because one out of three are raped on the way. Then there is extortion and human trafficking. And the dangers of trucking these children through the desert. Most of them will admit that it is for better paying jobs.
Are you outraged at these illegal immigrants dragging their children along because they know they can get better pay and benefits with the children?
And if you are then you should support sending these illegal immigrant parents home. None of these parents should be allowed to stay.
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.
It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.
Exactly. And 'free stuff' is a heck of an incentive which we offer. These migrants being interviewed during their trek across Mexico openly admit that.
Yes they do. It saddens me that Republicans take up these liberal talking points. We should be condemning these people for forcing their children to leave the only homeland they know. To make thousands of miles trek exposing them to dangers most parents would never expose their children to. It is because of birthright citizenship. Social benefits. Better paying jobs.
Honduras jobs:
https://www.indeed.com/q-Honduras-jobs.html (https://www.indeed.com/q-Honduras-jobs.html)
World Bank data on jobs in Honduras.
http://datatopics.worldbank.org/jobs/country/honduras (http://datatopics.worldbank.org/jobs/country/honduras)
Honduras minimum wage rate 2019
https://www.minimum-wage.org/international/honduras (https://www.minimum-wage.org/international/honduras)
Exactly. And 'free stuff' is a heck of an incentive which we offer. These migrants being interviewed during their trek across Mexico openly admit that.
The DACA 'kids' are a problem that was created a while back by a disinterested government. They are here and not that huge of a problem.
A far bigger problem is this continued influx of illegals. Once we get that stopped, we can deal with DACA in a sensible and compassionate way.
There are people now headed to the border clutching children as photo ops and endangering them. It saddens me that we are allowing this to happen by refusing to protect our borders once and for all.
Try to get your priorities straight.
Oh, for crying out loud @Emjay, no one is promoting not protecting our borders nor is anyone prioritizing DACA. DACA is Trump's supposed bargaining chip right now, of which I don't agree with.
@DB hit the nail on the head "The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite."
Look. Trump cannot get the support for border control right now without offering something.
He offered a 3 year extension of DACA.
We already have DACA so what do we have to lose if this gets this bill passed, and gets a start to border security.
If people remain intractable about giving anything, even something as harmless as a relatively short extension to an existing program, how can we expect anything but a stalemate?
I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one. You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.
@libertybele @Chosen Daughter
I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one. You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.
@libertybele @Chosen Daughter
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.
It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.
If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.
Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.
Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.
The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.
The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
QFT.
That sir, was brilliant.
:beer:
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings. Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders. And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!
Trump is in a position to do all three.
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings. Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders. And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!
Trump is in a position to do all three.
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings. Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders. And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!
Trump is in a position to do all three.
The only thing the President needs is Congress.....other than this, it's a cakewalk.
... The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
It's amazing how many people who don't even want Trump to be President, now want him to be a dictator.
The only thing the President needs is Congress.....other than this, it's a cakewalk.
It's amazing how many people who don't even want Trump to be President, now want him to be a dictator.
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. He does not need Congress on this. HE is the Chief Executive. HE is in control of the Executive branch of government. HE is the one ultimately responsible for releasing amnesty applicants. HE is the one ultimately responsible for prosecuting repeat invaders. And HE ultimately is reponsible for handing out free shit. Congress only passes the laws. They don't get to decide whether they are enforced.
It's amazing how people on this forum openly lie about what other posters want.
It's amazing how people on this forum openly lie about what other posters want.
Yeah, like this hasn't been tried and blocked by the judiciary.
Get real. One court is all it takes to stop any attempt the President will make to change immigration law by executive order.
Hell, one court won't even allow him to change an executive order by executive order.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, the needle on immigration reform is stuck on Capitol Hill @Hoodat
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings. Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders. And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!
Trump is in a position to do all three.
I don't really appreciate your insinuating that I'm a liar.
You cannot deny that a lot of people, many of them semi-Trump supporters, seem to be demanding that Trump magically make the things happen that they want to happen.
Unless America turns into an entirely different system of government, Trump has to get things done through Congress.
I'd amend that to stop giving out free stuff. Americans are a charitable lot, we don't need government to handle that for us.
I'd also add start fining and potentially jailing employers. Around here, everyone in landscaping and construction looks rather similar. If I had to guess, a lot of them are illegal or otherwise not eligible to work, to the point where I doubt any employer could compete without hiring illegals. Slap heavy enough fines, along with a reasonable chance of getting caught, and hiring citizens becomes the cheaper route.
It was an interesting essay on morality and contained a lot of truth but no practical solutions and it was something we all already knew.
Only using the most hysterical definition of the word. There is no path to citizenship involved, just some temporary deportation stays (for those that comply with the regulations).
Many of these did so specifically because Trump supported amnesty during the campaign. But then you knew that already.
Not sure who here voted Dem in the last Congressional election. Personally, I watched my district switch from R to D because the incumbent Republican was too arrogant to campaign. It isn't our fault that the GOP lost the House. It is THEIR fault for not delivering on what they campaigned to do.
Just curious, did you happen to smoke some very potent cannabis about 20 min before posting this? Because you are straight up delusional if you think us Conservatives put the Dems in control. On the contrary, it's because House Republicans chose to surrender their Conservative ideals in their quest to become Democrat-lite that the House was lost.
I don't appreciate you insinuating that I want Trump to be a dictator.
The only ones I see doing that are his most vocal sycophants.
You clearly are ignorant of how our government is set up. Congress is the Legislative branch. The President heads the Executive Branch. The Legislative Branch is in charge of creating the laws. The Executive Branch is in charge of enforcing the laws.
Congress passes a law setting rules in place for entering this country. Congress passes another law saying that if you get caught breaking the first law, then you forfeit the chance of becoming a legal resident. Congress also passes a law allowing for the detention of anyone claiming asylum until their case is resolved. And finally, Congress passes a law handing out free shit to legal residents.
The Executive branch enforces those laws. It detains (by law) anyone seeking asylum. It prosecutes (by law) anyone caught inside the country who had previously been deported. And it orders that no free shit be given to anyone who is not a legal resident (by law).
See how that works? Trump doesn't have to be the bleep you make him out to be. Trump can enforce the laws as written and put a huge dent in removing the incentive for illegals to come here and place a drain on the taxpayer.
You don't have to be a dictator. Any lawyer can tell you politicians take an oath to uphold the laws. It is the law to protect our borders.
@Chosen Daughter I'm sure the President would love for you to explain to him exactly how he can do that without Congress.
The Executive Branch is charged with enforcing the immigration laws passed by Congress. The doctrine is based on the concept that immigration is a question of national sovereignty, relating to a nation's right to define its own borders. Courts generally refrain from interfering in immigration matters.
You're not really that naive are you?
It's quite simple really. Much simpler than blaming Congress like happens here all the time.
Congress has already passed the laws. Trump simply has to enforce them. It's called Plenary power.
But it's too easy to pass the buck back to Congress and act like the President is helpless to do anything without them.
I think you may be a tiny bit naive to believe Trump can do these things without Congress. He certainly can't pass laws or bills without congressional support.
Do you actually think that Trump does not know about Plenary Power?
Federal policy on immigration has been founded on the “plenary power doctrine,†which holds that the political branches — the legislative and the executive — have sole power to regulate all aspects of immigration as a basic attribute of sovereignty
Just like he can't command the military to protect our borders. Got it.
Just like he can't command the military to protect our borders. Got it.
I think you may be a tiny bit naive to believe Trump can do these things without Congress. He certainly can't pass laws or bills without congressional support.
Do you actually think that Trump does not know about Plenary Power?
It's quite simple really. Much simpler than blaming Congress like happens here all the time.
Congress has already passed the laws. Trump simply has to enforce them. It's called Plenary power.
But it's too easy to pass the buck back to Congress and act like the President is helpless to do anything without them.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia about Plenary Power. It's not quite as simple as @txradioguy @libertybele want it to be and it depends a lot on the judiciary.
"In regard to immigration law, Congress, under the Plenary Power Doctrine, has the power to make immigration policy subject to judicial oversight.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia about Plenary Power. It's not quite as simple as @txradioguy @libertybele want it to be and it depends a lot on the judiciary.
"In regard to immigration law, Congress, under the Plenary Power Doctrine, has the power to make immigration policy subject to judicial oversight. The Executive Branch is charged with enforcing the immigration laws passed by Congress. The doctrine is based on the concept that immigration is a question of national sovereignty, relating to a nation's right to define its own borders. Courts generally refrain from interfering in immigration matters.[4] Historically, the U.S. Supreme Court has taken a hands-off approach when asked to review the political branches' immigration decisions and policy-making. The Center for Immigration Studies, an organization with a slant toward isolationism, suggests there is a movement to "erode" political-branch control over immigration in favor of a judge-administered system and that the results have created national security concerns.[4] The U.S. Supreme Court case Zadvydas v. Davis is cited as an example of the U.S. Supreme Court not following plenary power precedent.[4][5]"
Could have come to a full stop at "judicial oversight". Plenary power rests with the courts and not with either the Congress or the Executive.
How's that working for us? :smokin:
Considering that federal bench and SCOTUS appointments have been cited as a key accomplishment, under this administration, why should that be a concern?
Look. Trump cannot get the support for border control right now without offering something.
He offered a 3 year extension of DACA.
We already have DACA so what do we have to lose if this gets this bill passed, and gets a start to border security.
If people remain intractable about giving anything, even something as harmless as a relatively short extension to an existing program, how can we expect anything but a stalemate?
I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one. You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.
@libertybele @Chosen Daughter
Here's something constructive. Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings. Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders. And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!
Trump is in a position to do all three.
No his is not. The courts have ruled it illegal on two of your three. Care to try again @Hoodat?
I think you may be a tiny bit naive to believe Trump can do these things without Congress. He certainly can't pass laws or bills without congressional support.
Do you actually think that Trump does not know about Plenary Power?
I took the part about Plenary power and how it applies to the immigration issue straight from what you just posted. I even just bolded...the relevant part to this discussion for you.
Congress has already passed the law. There are national security implications to enforcing what the Congress...including the Dems against it now...passed 12 years ago.
The Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) is already singed public law. Divert money from Liberal pork projects to pay for the wall and get it done.
I guess understanding the simplicity of what Trump is authorized to do really is too hard for you to grasp.
Considering that federal bench and SCOTUS appointments have been cited as a key accomplishment, under this administration, why should that be a concern?
In addition, Trump waited till the last minute to create a media circus on this issue just days before the new Congress was to be sworn in. Why?
In addition, Trump waited till the last minute to create a media circus on this issue just days before the new Congress was to be sworn in. Why?
No his is not. The courts have ruled it illegal on two of your three. Care to try again @Hoodat?
Really? Which two?
My morning dose of NPR cleared it up for me.
Because all it takes is one court to put a stop to what the President does. And if memory serves, plenty of Obama judges are still breathing.
Good question.
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.
It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.
If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.
Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.
Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.
The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.
The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.
Because the globalist traitor Paul Ryan was speaker and Paul Ryan waited until the last days to pass
funding for the wall. That's why.
It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?
I took the part about Plenary power and how it applies to the immigration issue straight from what you just posted. I even just bolded...the relevant part to this discussion for you.
Congress has already passed the law. There are national security implications to enforcing what the Congress...including the Dems against it now...passed 12 years ago.
The Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) is already singed public law. Divert money from Liberal pork projects to pay for the wall and get it done.
I guess understanding the simplicity of what Trump is authorized to do really is too hard for you to grasp.
Ah, so you've now heard the DNC talking points.
:thumbsup:
That’s a ridiculous reason not to use executive power,
Sorry @edpc but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously. Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.
Sorry @edpc but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously. Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.
Sorry @edpc but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously. Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.
Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Trump won't prosecute serial deportees (a felony subject to two years in prison) is because @edpc would call him a 'dictator'?
Some say it's a piece of cake to use the military, totally forgetting about the Posse Comitatus Act , which has been abused in the past with disastrous consequences.
(See: Logical fallacies - Strawman)
No one suggested anything about using the military. It is simply a matter of enforcing current border laws and removing the 'free stuff' incentive - all of which are within a President's Constitutional powers.
(See: Logical fallacies - Strawman)
No one suggested anything about using the military. It is simply a matter of enforcing current border laws and removing the 'free stuff' incentive - all of which are within a President's Constitutional powers.
So true @Right_in_Virginia but more voices here that are ordinarily saner are basically calling for measures that they deem simple, but which are anything but.
Some say it's a piece of cake to use the military, totally forgetting about the Posse Comitatus Act , which has been abused in the past with disastrous consequences.
And some are thinking that using the Plenary Act is without risks when it is full of judicial pitfalls and risks.
Trump has tried that and been slapped down by liberal, corrupt judges.
Some say it's a piece of cake to use the military, totally forgetting about the Posse Comitatus Act , which has been abused in the past with disastrous consequences.
I just don't understand the drive to deride the one working for our side @Emjay
It's not a matter of deriding Trump. It is a matter of a President using his powers to enforce the laws already on the books. It is a matter of opposing amnesty which for some reason you now choose to support.
On the enforcement front, I am giving you clear ideas on things completely within the power of the Executive branch - powers granted by law through the legislature and upheld by the judiciary - things that would strongly deter illegal immigration. Yet when it comes to getting on board and cheering Trump forward, you choose instead to make excuses for Trump doing nothing.
Pathetic.
So when it comes down to it, it is once again the Conservatives on this forum who are unwavering in their opposition to amnesty while you Trump sycophants are willing to surrender to whatever Trump chooses. At least I called it correctly back in 2015 when I pointed out Trump's statements of support for amnesty. And now I hear you and your sycophants chiming in. At least the candidate I supported never backed down. Never. So from this point on, we Conservatives will continue to push for the enforcement of laws and an end to the 'free stuff' giveaway that current illegals enjoy while we listen to your defense of amnesty filled with excuses from you of why Trump can't do it.
Everything you say is true,
But
Punishment must fit the crime. Deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could
seem to many as cruel and unusual. DACA people need to be dealt with in a humane way on a case by
case bases. How old were they when they entered USA? How old are they now? Are they gang members?
Criminals? In military? College educated? Etc.
Deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could
seem to many as cruel and unusual.
It's not a matter of deriding Trump. It is a matter of a President using his powers to enforce the laws already on the books. It is a matter of opposing amnesty which for some reason you now choose to support.
On the enforcement front, I am giving you clear ideas on things completely within the power of the Executive branch - powers granted by law through the legislature and upheld by the judiciary - things that would strongly deter illegal immigration. Yet when it comes to getting on board and cheering Trump forward, you choose instead to make excuses for Trump doing nothing.
Pathetic.
So when it comes down to it, it is once again the Conservatives on this forum who are unwavering in their opposition to amnesty while you Trump sycophants are willing to surrender to whatever Trump chooses. At least I called it correctly back in 2015 when I pointed out Trump's statements of support for amnesty. And now I hear you and your sycophants chiming in. At least the candidate I supported never backed down. Never. So from this point on, we Conservatives will continue to push for the enforcement of laws and an end to the 'free stuff' giveaway that current illegals enjoy while we listen to your defense of amnesty filled with excuses from you of why Trump can't do it.
Deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could seem to many as cruel and unusual.
So when it comes down to it, it is once again the Conservatives on this forum who are unwavering in their opposition to amnesty while you Trump sycophants are willing to surrender to whatever Trump chooses. At least I called it correctly back in 2015 when I pointed out Trump's statements of support for amnesty. And now I hear you and your sycophants chiming in. At least the candidate I supported never backed down. Never. So from this point on, we Conservatives will continue to push for the enforcement of laws and an end to the 'free stuff' giveaway that current illegals enjoy while we listen to your defense of amnesty filled with excuses from you of why Trump can't do it.
That's right.
This is similar to the tax cut, which came without the obligatory spending cuts.
It's the same dang thing, and it is NOT Conservative.
TO resurrect the mantra from Duncan Hunter's day:
BUILD THE FENCE.
ENFORCE THE LAW.
Those who knowing buy stolen property are not made whole again when they have to return it to its rightful owner.
Your bleeding heart rewards those who cheat with no consequences when later caught. That creates the conditions that gets people into this predicament in the first place. Until you have the courage to uphold the law and force people pay the consequences of their choices including their children's suffering then you won't end it. Ending it is what will stop the suffering in the future.
Again. Crime has victims and it isn't fair. Put the blame where it belongs. Until parents realize that if they bring their child here illegally the child will be returned to wherever they came from when caught they won't stop doing this.
888high58888 I too was a Duncan Hunter supporter.
Knowingly or unknowingly, the law is the same - there can be no profit in buying stolen goods.
That is dang well right.
It's not a matter of deriding Trump. It is a matter of a President using his powers to enforce the laws already on the books. It is a matter of opposing amnesty which for some reason you now choose to support.
On the enforcement front, I am giving you clear ideas on things completely within the power of the Executive branch - powers granted by law through the legislature and upheld by the judiciary - things that would strongly deter illegal immigration. Yet when it comes to getting on board and cheering Trump forward, you choose instead to make excuses for Trump doing nothing.
Pathetic.
So when it comes down to it, it is once again the Conservatives on this forum who are unwavering in their opposition to amnesty while you Trump sycophants are willing to surrender to whatever Trump chooses. At least I called it correctly back in 2015 when I pointed out Trump's statements of support for amnesty. And now I hear you and your sycophants chiming in. At least the candidate I supported never backed down. Never. So from this point on, we Conservatives will continue to push for the enforcement of laws and an end to the 'free stuff' giveaway that current illegals enjoy while we listen to your defense of amnesty filled with excuses from you of why Trump can't do it.
once again the Conservatives on this forum who are unwavering in their opposition to amnesty
Only to humans with human empathy or reverence for Christ
Only to humans with human empathy or reverence for Christ
Really? Christ spoke on this issue? Where was that, @Once-Ler?
And yet there we were on the border for 45 days in Texas. Sustainment...Engineers and Military Police.
By the way...who do you think is involved in designing, building, and operating locks and dams. Other civil engineering projects include flood control, beach nourishment, and dredging for waterway navigation?
Who is in charge of 24% of of U.S. hydropower capacity?
USACoE.
You might want to study what exactly that act covers before you just mindlessly spit it out.
Just sayin...
Oh, but, my friend, you are wrong there. @libertybele suggested it back on this very thread.
You oh wise one @Emjay, who is all knowing and re-interprets what the President is doing *****rollingeyes*****; DO NOT put words in my mouth nor make assumptions. I have in no way withdrawn my support for President Trump and his stance on the border wall. I stand very adamant on NO amnesty and not compromising our sovereignty. IF you see that as withdrawing support for Trump's wall so be it. I'll be damn if I give anyone a pass who would compromise on the sovereignty of this country.
You don't seem to comprehend the ramifications of amnesty, DACA, Dreamers, etc., on our country. I've explained it before, I've laid out the stats numerous times. If you don't agree or understand, that's fine. However, don't sit and tell people what I do or do not stand for.
As has been mentioned before, the military is limited to action at the border, due to the Posse Comitatus Act. That’s because, currently, defense of the border is a matter of US law. Forces cannot be used to enforce law, unless certain conditions are met.
The only ways to use the military to defend the border as some would like is to:
A) Declare a state of war.
B) Seize border land and make it military base property.
Neither is likely to occur.
Which is why @libertybele didn't propose doing it.
I went back and reviewed @libertybele 's posts. Nowhere did she advocate a military option. Her only comment was to point out one of many options already available to the President - options which you reject outright. It was disingenuous, if not outright dishonest of you to smear libertybele this way, especially after being cited for this already on this thread:
Your bleeding heart rewards those who cheat with no consequences when later caught.
Look @Hoodat I don't want to fight with you but I'm trying to figure out your agenda. As for @libertybele I don't want to fight with her either but y'all are being disingenuous in sniping at Trump because he is trying to settle this thing in a way he deems practical.
And I do not adore Trump as you insinuated, but I do admire him and I think you guys could never find a leader as passionate as Trump is on this issue.
I don't reject any options outright but I also know that Trump is aware of all the options available to him and is trying to get a bill passed. I know he will use those options in the future and he has already tried to do so.
I just see no point in the constant second guessing and sniping at the one person who wants what we want.
Like the title of the article says "President Trump's Rumored Potential Border Wall Deal Sounds Like Disastrous 1986 Immigration Compromise", I worry about it, too.
I think that lead us, along with lack of action since, to where we find ourselves today.
We tend to think that DACA only applies to those who have come across the southern border illegally.
Could this lead to others who were brought over illegally as children from the northern border with Canada wanting the same treatment?
Children and families are also smuggled in via ship, from Asia?
What about dreamers that find themselves here due to visa overstays by their parents?
Does this ever really end, or encourage more of the same?
What safe guards will be in place to insure that we won't be talking about this in 30 more years, with even greater numbers?
It's a legitimate concern.
Always with the personal insults?
I am being a realist. Should the GOP adopt the policies you advocate they'd be a minority party for generations.
So you want to deport someone brought here as a two year old, that served in the Army, a combat vet
that is now a college educated STEM worker? Good luck with that.
I didn’t catch that, either, but it has been advocated by some here in other threads. That should dispel the notion about it happening.
Always?
Not even remotely true.
Your "realism" is the cause of the problem. That thinking creates a moral hazard that causes the situation to occur in the first place. The sooner you recognize that the sooner people will stop trying to take advantage of that hazard and future suffering in great numbers will come to an end.
I suggested we should stage a southern invasion "drill", build a wall, and then leave the Dems to fund its removal.
We have to choose our side.
We have to choose our side.
I have no idea what you just said, but the democrats in the House are doubling down and demanding permanent acceptance of DACA.
We have to choose our side.
Always with the personal insults?
I am being a realist. Should the GOP adopt the policies you advocate they'd be a minority party for generations.
So you want to deport someone brought here as a two year old, that served in the Army, a combat vet
that is now a college educated STEM worker? Good luck with that.
So you want to deport someone [...] that served in the Army, a combat vet
This is the only thing I agree with you about in this.
I have long opined that one who serves honorably as a combat soldier has already proved himself a citizen and patriot, having been proven by trial in the worst sort of crucible. Far worse than any test a mere bureaucracy might devise.
Certainly all the more so for a decorated combat soldier...
@jpsb
Second, ok I’ll play. We’ll let the illegal who served as a combat medicated but is now a college educated STEM worker stay as soon as their bona fides check out. But maybe you can then agree to not sanctify the other 75 gazillion of them that don’t fit your narrow definition?
Combat vets aren't deported; they earn their citizenship that way. Now, there is a story floating around about a vet, whether combat or not, who had also committed a crime, and I think it was before his attained his citizenship. He was deported. Facts can be pesky things.
I would certainly hope that is true (I do not know, one way or the other), but then why is it a part of the conversation?
I already chose the Conservative approach.
- Prosecute deportees who re-cross our border.
- Stop catch-and-release of asylum seekers.
- Stop giving out free stuff to illegals.
And clearly, you are not on board with any of that.
I'm totally on board with the conservative side. I'm not on board with pie in the sky expectations which are self-defeating and get in the way of realistic progress.
And none of the things you want can be accomplished if we fail to support Trump and weaken him to the point that the democrats get elected in 2020.
Where would all your ideas be then?
I'm totally on board with the conservative side. I'm not on board with pie in the sky expectations which are self-defeating and get in the way of realistic progress.
And none of the things you want can be accomplished if we fail to support Trump and weaken him to the point that the democrats get elected in 2020.
Where would all your ideas be then?
I can't answer that. Maybe a red herring?
For an illegal, serving in our armed forces does not automatically make you a citizen.
For an illegal, serving in our armed forces does not automatically make you a citizen.
Who said anything about serving in our armed forces?
We were talking about combat vets explicitly.
Not general issue, and not in-theater... Combat vets.
@Emjay
As I said to you (yesterday?)
There is much to be gained by pushing for more, and not just bowing in fealty to whatever trump throws out today.
No, the illegal still has to go through some steps to do so, but it's definitely a path to citizenship. What's your problem with that?
900 DACA people currently serving.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/09/07/trump-administration-struggles-fate-900-dreamers-serving-military/640637001/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/09/07/trump-administration-struggles-fate-900-dreamers-serving-military/640637001/)
Not sure what you mean by that. Trump offered a reasonable compromise which Pelosi has rejected out of hand. They want permanent status for DACA.
I've read that a small group of democrats in the house are urging Pelosi to reconsider but those democrats need to watch their backs.
What is the point in pushing for a better compromise when they are already rejecting the one offered.
Look, I would like a better compromise but with Pelosi ruling the House, I don't know what we can reasonably expect.
And your 'bowing in fealty' comment is way out of line.
I do respect Trump and I think he is doing the very best he can to achieve some compromise on this ugly situation.
But to characterize it as you did is way out of line.
So, what is your point? Why did you bring combat vets into the discussion?
I was responding to someone that wants to deport all of the DACA people@jpsb
I am being a realist. Should the GOP adopt the policies you advocate they'd be a minority party for generations.
So you want to deport someone brought here as a two year old, that served in the Army, a combat vet
that is now a college educated STEM worker? Good luck with that.
@jpsb
Here’s the rub: if they don’t adopt those policies or something nearly as robust, THEY WILL BE A MINORITY PARTY FOR GENEATIONS ANYHOW!
That’s WHY this fight is so important!
I was responding to someone that wants to deport all of the DACA people
I am being a realist. Should the GOP adopt the policies you advocate they'd be a minority party for generations.
So you want to deport someone brought here as a two year old, that served in the Army, a combat vet
that is now a college educated STEM worker? Good luck with that.
If they are in the U.S. military their DACA status is irrelevant.
@Emjay
When they reject it out of hand, you move the goal posts back further and then you scream from the bully pulpit and get people to see it your way. You don’t say, “oh shucks, guess you beat me this time...here let me fold like a cheap suitâ€. (Not saying he’s there yet, but he’s charting that course). I’d think a master deal maker could figure that out. You play hardball.
And if you are not willing to hold HIS feet to the fire like that and push for the best deal WE can get right up until the moment the deal is signed, then yes, you are bowing in fealty and taking whatever scraps he is willing to throw your way.
No they can still be deported and there are plenty of people here that want them to be deported.
This is the only thing I agree with you about in this.
I have long opined that one who serves honorably as a combat soldier has already proved himself a citizen and patriot, having been proven by trial in the worst sort of crucible. Far worse than any test a mere bureaucracy might devise.
Certainly all the more so for a decorated combat soldier...
@Emjay
When they reject it out of hand, you move the goal posts back further and then you scream from the bully pulpit and get people to see it your way. You don’t say, “oh shucks, guess you beat me this time...here let me fold like a cheap suitâ€. (Not saying he’s there yet, but he’s charting that course). I’d think a master deal maker could figure that out. You play hardball.
And if you are not willing to hold HIS feet to the fire like that and push for the best deal WE can get right up until the moment the deal is signed, then yes, you are bowing in fealty and taking whatever scraps he is willing to throw your way.
Well, I could urge Trump to offer something that would please you, but that would certainly be rejected since even his reasonable compromise is being rejected.
And I could grab Trump's feet and push them toward a flame but I couldn't give him a magic wand, which is what you seem to want.
We're living in the real world here, @Axeslinger You might think about joining us here.
NO compromise on the sovereignty of this country - take a good hard look at Germany and France. NO amnesty. NO DACA. The Secure Fence Act of 2006 was signed by BOTH parties .... we need the rest of it funded, period!!!!
Well, I could urge Trump to offer something that would please you, but that would certainly be rejected since even his reasonable compromise is being rejected.
And I could grab Trump's feet and push them toward a flame but I couldn't give him a magic wand, which is what you seem to want.
We're living in the real world here, @Axeslinger You might think about joining us here.
Yes, that would be great but there is no realistic way to make that happen right now. I wish there were.
I don't know how y'all expect this to come about ... all you do is say what you want, which is what most of us want, but nobody can explain how to make this happen.
Trump is trying.
@Emjay you’re right, it’s always better to give the other side all your leverage and everything they want...and it’s always better to just accept what your “betters†tell you to take and not try to hold their feet to the fire. That’s a brilliant strategy you’ve got there.
What exactly do you propose that Trump do??
Well, I could urge Trump to offer something that would please you, but that would certainly be rejected since even his reasonable compromise is being rejected.
Really? Christ spoke on this issue? Where was that, @Once-Ler?
What exactly do you propose that Trump do??
Enforcing the actual laws currently on the books would be a good start.
Enforcing the actual laws currently on the books would be a good start.
That's the savior that speaks to me @Sanguine .
Good to see you concede the point that deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could seem cruel and unusual to humans with human empathy.
Exactly what laws might that be? I want to let Trump know.@Emjay
@Emjay
Ask and you shall receive:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,348365.msg1896797.html#msg1896797 (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,348365.msg1896797.html#msg1896797)
Or just scroll up 5 posts
That is a nothing burger. What actual laws are on the books that Trump is choosing to ignore?
Your empathy is what puts people in this position to begin with. Moral hazards encourage people to do the wrong thing. What you propose will only result in more people being caught up in the same trap. Counting to 3 over and over instead of following through with certain consequences does no one any favors.
LOL!
That is a nothing burger. What actual laws are on the books that Trump is choosing to ignore?
That's it? LOL. You all have stated some generalities that you wish would happen. I'm asking about specific laws that could be enforced.@Emjay
(https://patpgmr.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/deafandblind.jpg)
Exactly what laws might that be? I want to let Trump know.
No, not if they are following the rules and not breaking any laws they can't.
Well, you could urge Trump to
1. Stop releasing asylum seekers into American society
2. Start prosecuting deportees who recross the border
3. Stop giving free stuff to illegals
That is a nothing burger. What actual laws are on the books that Trump is choosing to ignore?
All of which require Congress to change laws and allocate resources.
What "laws" prevent the President from executing the law?
Your empathy is what puts people in this position to begin with. Moral hazards encourage people to do the wrong thing. What you propose will only result in more people being caught up in the same trap. Counting to 3 over and over instead of following through with certain consequences does no one any favors.I got Empathy=bad. The rest is just babbling.
I got Empathy=bad. The rest is just babbling.
There is no law that prevents the President from enforcing existing laws, as you know. However you
need resources (money) and the money comes from Congress. I am thru explaining this, enjoy
handing the country over to the Dems in 2020. You earned it and you deserve it. And instead of
getting 500,000 "new Americans" you'll get 30,000,000 new Americans. I hope they all move into your
neighborhood.
@Emjay
No you’re being deliberately obtuse because you’ve now received answers to your ridiculous questions three Times. You know as well as we do that those laws exist and are on the books and are not being enforced. And the point is that trump COULD use ALL of those items as part of his negotiations but instead SEEMS intent on giving away the farm And you’re ok with that because...TRUMP!!!!!!
1. Any illegal alien caught anywhere inside the US other than a point of entry who subsequently seeks asylum can be detained indefinitely until their asylum case is resolved.
2. Any alien who is deported forfeits the right to return to the US. Violation constitutes a felony punishable by two years in prison.
3. It is a violation of federal law for anyone without legal residency to receive federal aid.
So, stop releasing asylum seekers into American society while their cases are pending. Start prosecuting and incarcerating repeat border violators. And above all else, stop giving free stuff to illegals. All three of these are within the President's power. All three are backed by law.
There is no law that prevents the President from enforcing existing laws, as you know. However you
need resources (money) and the money comes from Congress.
All of which require Congress to change laws
Good to see you concede the point that deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could seem cruel and unusual to humans with human empathy.
Number 3 by itself leaves more than enough left over to pay for 1 and 2. Seriously, what in the hell is wrong with you people that you can't even get on board with cutting off food stamps and public housing to illegals? No wonder you hate us Conservatives so much.
Educate yourself, it is already illegal for illegal aliens to receive means tested federal benefits. So no
#3 will not pay for 1 & 2. There are only so many beds and so many immigration judges. How are
you going to deport them all with limited resources? Are you suggesting that we lock up 20+ million
people for years while they wait for their immigration status hearing? Think the American people
would be ok with that?
FYI the SC has already ruled that we have to provide them with emergency medical care and that we
have to educate their kids. The system is being overwhelmed and without resources and immigration
reform (Congress) there is little Trump can do.
Yes, I agree. But similarly cruel and unusual is the Dem's fake empathy for these children, and their willingness to use them as pawns to advance their jihad against Trump.
Trump's the only one now speaking of normalizing the Dreamers by legislation to replace unlawful executive orders. It's a shame that the SCOTUS won't opine on such orders; it removes the Dems' incentive to strike a deal. But you'd think they'd seek a deal just because they're "humans with human empathy". Instead, they're just the usual political animals.
I see you did not brother to read the article I posted.
Take a look at the 'flip side' for a minute. What is similarly cruel is allowing hundreds of thousands of people to enter this country ILLEGALLY that have wreaked havoc on our country. What about the families who have loved ones that have been affected by murder, rape, burglary, and other violent attacks? What about all those who fail to assimilate to our values and who are trying to implement Sharia? We ALL have suffered in some way from illegal immigration as it has put a tremendous drain on this country economically and we can no longer support this invasion.
Human empathy HAS to be considered for the citizens of this country FIRST. Otherwise, we will quickly turn into another Germany or France, which is exactly where we are headed if we don't get a wall, enforce our existing laws and stop granting amnesty or asylum to everyone that comes here.
Most do not commit murder and mayhem; most work hard to support their families. If they don't assimilate, that may be largely because their illegal status keeps them from doing do. But history has shown that while first generation immigrants retain their language and culture, the second generation largely assimilates.
It is important not to condemn the majority with lurid tales of a small minority. As for "sharia", Muslims under our Constitution have the same right to practice and proselytize their religion as you do as a Christian. You want the laws to conform to your moral beliefs concerning abortion, don't you? How is that any different than a Muslim wanting to practice sharia?
Most do not commit murder and mayhem; most work hard to support their families. If they don't assimilate, that may be largely because their illegal status keeps them from doing do. But history has shown that while first generation immigrants retain their language and culture, the second generation largely assimilates.
It is important not to condemn the majority with lurid tales of a small minority. As for "sharia", Muslims under our Constitution have the same right to practice and proselytize their religion as you do as a Christian. You want the laws to conform to your moral beliefs concerning abortion, don't you? How is that any different than a Muslim wanting to practice sharia?
Most do not commit murder and mayhem; most work hard to support their families. If they don't assimilate, that may be largely because their illegal status keeps them from doing do. But history has shown that while first generation immigrants retain their language and culture, the second generation largely assimilates.
It is important not to condemn the majority with lurid tales of a small minority. As for "sharia", Muslims under our Constitution have the same right to practice and proselytize their religion as you do as a Christian. You want the laws to conform to your moral beliefs concerning abortion, don't you? How is that any different than a Muslim wanting to practice sharia?
A lot of them do commit murder and mayhem. According to a new study illegals are much more likely to commit a violent crime than a natural born citizen. The only point I was trying to make is
that Trump can not solve our illegal problem without Congress. I am willing on a case by case
bases to cut the DACA people some lack. I am not willing to do a damn thing for those that
knowingly entered our country illegally. They need to go home. Period. Build the holding centers
and hire the judges. Deal with repeat offenders first then move on the others but deport them all.
If by "most" you mean the vast majority, then your statement is wrong.
https://100percentfedup.com/new-study-shows-75-of-illegal-aliens-commit-felonies/
. I am not willing to do a damn thing for those that
knowingly entered our country illegally. They need to go home. Period. Build the holding centers
and hire the judges. Deal with repeat offenders first then move on the others but deport them all.
Sharia law should NOT be allowed to challenge or override U.S. laws and our Constitution. Slowly, there is a push. If this wasn't a concern, you wouldn't have states banning Sharia law, or passing some kind of ballot measure that prohibits the states courts from considering foreign, international or religious law. As of 2014 Alabama, Arizona, Kansas, Louisiana, North Carolina, South Dakota and Tennessee have such laws.
I expect people to uphold the Constitution, not 'bend' the law to fit their agenda.
Oh, c'mon, @Sanguine, you're better than that. The article creates its alarmist premise by counting as a "felony" the act of obtaining a false Social Security number. I'm not condoning that practice, but it's done precisely because an illegal seeks to work, not commit murder and mayhem.
Most illegals come here not to exploit and victimize, but rather to work. I have long been in favor of trading border security and long-needed changes to our legal immigration laws for normalizing the status of those here illegally who've nevertheless kept their noses clean and contributed to our economy. Is that an ideal situation? Of course not - in a perfect world, they would have entered the U.S. to work legally. But three decades of lax enforcement have brought us to where we are. It is well past time for a grand bargain - too bad it couldn't get done when Republicans held both houses of Congress. Now we have to deal with the Dems who have no appetite for a bargain that will take the political issue off the table.
As for $$ --- there are all kinds of 'slush' projects that monies could be redirected. We give billions to others in foreign aid --- certainly enough to build a wall. As Cruz suggested -- El Chapo money could be used.
Educate yourself, it is already illegal for illegal aliens to receive means tested federal benefits. So no
#3 will not pay for 1 & 2. There are only so many beds and so many immigration judges. How are
you going to deport them all with limited resources? Are you suggesting that we lock up 20+ million
people for years while they wait for their immigration status hearing? Think the American people
would be ok with that?
FYI the SC has already ruled that we have to provide them with emergency medical care and that we
have to educate their kids. The system is being overwhelmed and without resources and immigration
reform (Congress) there is little Trump can do.
Oh, come on, @Jazzhead. I knew you would take that stance and that's why I linked to that article. First of all, it is a felony. You or I would serve jail time for it. Secondly, that is not the only felony that constitutes the statistics; illegal aliens simply do commit more crimes that do citizens.
Secondly, you point about "coming here to work" is also incorrect. The majority of illegal alien homes do use some form(s) of welfare. You're wrong on both counts.
We agree that illegal immigration is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. In that, we differ from many politicians who see the issue as one to exploit to animate their base.
I'm sure we disagree on how to address the problem, but we agree that the time for kicking the can is over. My point is simply that it the path to a solution is not helped by not demonizing these folks; most have come here to work and support their families.
Oh, c'mon, @Sanguine, you're better than that. The article creates its alarmist premise by counting as a "felony" the act of obtaining a false Social Security number. I'm not condoning that practice, but it's done precisely because an illegal seeks to work, not commit murder and mayhem.
Most illegals come here not to exploit and victimize, but rather to work.
So, you're saying I'm demonizing them by pointing out the facts? @Jazzhead
You're willingly under the illusion that the media has fed you about who exactly is coming to the states.
Educate yourself, it is already illegal for illegal aliens to receive means tested federal benefits.
So no, #3 will not pay for 1 & 2.
There are only so many beds and so many immigration judges.
How are you going to deport them all with limited resources?
Are you suggesting that we lock up 20+ million people for years while they wait for their immigration status hearing?
Think the American people would be ok with that?
FYI the SC has already ruled that we have to provide them with emergency medical care and that we
have to educate their kids.
The system is being overwhelmed and without resources and immigration reform (Congress) there is little Trump can do.
No, @Sanguine, and my apologies for that. The post I was thinking of that "demonized" illegal immigrants was libertybelle's, not yours. You posted following my response to LB with your link to an article noting, in its breathless headline, that SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT of illegals had committed felonies. The study notwithstanding, the article you linked to struck me as having the characteristics of most agenda-driven media coverage these days - a headline designed to incite, that upon further inspection isn't that big a deal. So illegals come here to work, and get false SSNs to do so. Not ideal, of course, but hardly a refutation of my point that most come here to work and support their families, not commit murder and mayhem.
You can argue all day long that most ILLEGALS are here to work; try telling that to the victim of illegal's families. ILLEGALS do NOT belong here. They came her ILLEGALLY period. They broke the law entering this country to begin with. There is also no debate that would ever convince me that we should give blanket amnesty to ILLEGALS, nor is there any argument that you could give me as to why we should not protect the sovereignty of this country, our borders and the citizens of this country.
I have the utmost compassion for the citizens of this country. They come FIRST. I have little compassion for those who break our laws, use their children as pawns, and feel that they are entitled. I could go on about how LaRaza enters into all this, but that is a whole other subject.
Back during the 'W' administration I was more active in fighting illegal immigration -- the stats back then (and I wished I had kept the files) showed that there were 20,000,000 illegals .... and that figure was considered conservative because of chain migration and birthright citizenship. The current stats still estimate that there are appx. 20,000,000 illegals. I'm not buying it. I'd say conservatively that the figure has doubled.
Again, your choice. Either we secure this country or we become another Europe where countries have been significantly transformed, and definitely not for the better.
I support securing our borders and reforming our immigration laws. I understand your position. I strongly disagree with it because I believe it is cruel and unjust, and because demonization is no path to a solution.
The choice is to make the hard choices needed to solve the problem, or else maintain the status quo. Whether you know it or not, your uncompromising approach marks you as an effective advocate for the latter.
You are for the side of the poor illegals and I am on the side of the poor U.S. citizens. Americans FIRST!! Wanting mass deportation, a wall, enforcement of existing immigration laws and a moratorium on ALL migration is hardly remaining status quo.
1. Moratorium on ALL migration until we have sufficient laws in place and those that will enforce them.
2. ALL illegals have one chance to come forward and become registered. They will be returned to their country of origin and will have a chance at a later period of time enter this country through legal means at their own expense. Those that have not registered and are caught, will be returned to their country of origin with NO chance of legal entry.
3. A wall must be built and enforced by adequate personnel and adequate defense mechanisms.
4. Birthright citizenship and chain migration must end.
5. Those caught hiring ILLEGALS will face a mandatory jail sentence of 5 years; with no chance of a reduced sentence.
6. Medicaid, Medicare, and food stamps must be stopped to ALL those who are identified as ILLEGAL.
This IS fair and just to the citizens of the U.S. Just think of all the $$ that will be saved and could be re-invested back into the welfare of this country.
LOL!
When you elected Trump you handed the country to the Dems. Trump is a wrecking ball that has gutted what was left of the GOP.
No, @Sanguine, and my apologies for that. The post I was thinking of that "demonized" illegal immigrants was libertybelle's, not yours. You posted following my response to LB with your link to an article noting, in its breathless headline, that SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT of illegals had committed felonies. The study notwithstanding, the article you linked to struck me as having the characteristics of most agenda-driven media coverage these days - a headline designed to incite, that upon further inspection isn't that big a deal. So illegals come here to work, and get false SSNs to do so. Not ideal, of course, but hardly a refutation of my point that most come here to work and support their families, not commit murder and mayhem.
LOL!
When you elected Trump you handed the country to the Dems. Trump is a wrecking ball that has gutted what was left of the GOP.
I would argue that the GOP needs some gutting. I don't think Trump has been that effective as you seem to.
He's not done.
You are for the side of the poor illegals and I am on the side of the poor U.S. citizens. Americans FIRST!! Wanting mass deportation, a wall, enforcement of existing immigration laws and a moratorium on ALL migration is hardly remaining status quo.
1. Moratorium on ALL migration until we have sufficient laws in place and those that will enforce them.
2. ALL illegals have one chance to come forward and become registered. They will be returned to their country of origin and will have a chance at a later period of time enter this country through legal means at their own expense. Those that have not registered and are caught, will be returned to their country of origin with NO chance of legal entry.
3. A wall must be built and enforced by adequate personnel and adequate defense mechanisms.
4. Birthright citizenship and chain migration must end.
5. Those caught hiring ILLEGALS will face a mandatory jail sentence of 5 years; with no chance of a reduced sentence.
6. Medicaid, Medicare, and food stamps must be stopped to ALL those who are identified as ILLEGAL.
This IS fair and just to the citizens of the U.S. Just think of all the $$ that will be saved and could be re-invested back into the welfare of this country.
Nice list. We don't get that stuff. We get shutdown, partisanship, and President Demento. Enjoy.
I'm on the side of the U.S.A.
You claim to speak for the USA.
You can argue all day long that most ILLEGALS are here to work; try telling that to the victim of illegal's families. ILLEGALS do NOT belong here. They came her ILLEGALLY period. They broke the law entering this country to begin with. There is also no debate that would ever convince me that we should give blanket amnesty to ILLEGALS, nor is there any argument that you could give me as to why we should not protect the sovereignty of this country, our borders and the citizens of this country.6-12% of the population of the US? If true I wonder what the percentage of folks on welfare and food stamps. If we just made you prove your legality to get welfare and food stamps a lot of this problem would take care of itself.
I have the utmost compassion for the citizens of this country. They come FIRST. I have little compassion for those who break our laws, use their children as pawns, and feel that they are entitled. I could go on about how LaRaza enters into all this, but that is a whole other subject.
Back during the 'W' administration I was more active in fighting illegal immigration -- the stats back then (and I wished I had kept the files) showed that there were 20,000,000 illegals .... and that figure was considered conservative because of chain migration and birthright citizenship. The current stats still estimate that there are appx. 20,000,000 illegals. I'm not buying it. I'd say conservatively that the figure has doubled.
Again, your choice. Either we secure this country or we become another Europe where countries have been significantly transformed, and definitely not for the better.
Oh that's right, I forgot you want open borders and this President to fail. 888mouthI'm used to failing memories from the Trump side. It's not what I want. It is what I expect to happen.
Yes, it is a nice list. I'm on the side of the U.S.A. We'll find out very shortly where Trump and the new Senate majority stand.
You accuse Once-ler for wanting the President to fail, but it's the uncompromising position of nativists like yourself that are causing him to reject potential deals that get more funding for border security and effect other needed changes in the immigration laws. It is folly to ignore the reality that decades of lax enforcement have led to tens of millions of illegals working and raising their families here. Any changes that conservatives want in the immigration laws are going to happen only in the spirit of compromise regarding what to do with the millions who've been here for years. Some kind of normalization or amnesty is going to happen, or nothing will get done and the "evils" you decry will persist, unresolved.
Extremists are big on talk, but are afraid of real action. They thump their chests proclaiming they're "for the USA", yet threaten to withdraw their support for the President if he dares to compromise as all leaders must to achieve their priorities. Rhetoric like yours simply sets up the President to fail.
You accuse Once-ler for wanting the President to fail, but it's the uncompromising position of nativists like yourself that are causing him to reject potential deals that get more funding for border security and effect other needed changes in the immigration laws.
6-12% of the population of the US? If true I wonder what the percentage of folks on welfare and food stamps. If we just made you prove your legality to get welfare and food stamps a lot of this problem would take care of itself.
@libertybele Ping me if you'd like some help answering this liberal. happy77
The silliest part about all of this is that it will likely result in funding for a barrier, a pathway to citizenship for DACA kids, and restrictions to chain migration. These are all things he could’ve had this time last year, but opted to wait for a SCOTUS ruling. They just recently declined to hear the case in their upcoming session. By accepting the deal, last January, some on the right would have been disappointed, but nothing would have changed. The Senate would still remain in Republican control and the House would have been lost. The aggravation and optics of this current shut down could have been avoided.
You accuse Once-ler for wanting the President to fail, but it's the uncompromising position of nativists like yourself that are causing him to reject potential deals that get more funding for border security and effect other needed changes in the immigration laws. It is folly to ignore the reality that decades of lax enforcement have led to tens of millions of illegals working and raising their families here. Any changes that conservatives want in the immigration laws are going to happen only in the spirit of compromise regarding what to do with the millions who've been here for years. Some kind of normalization or amnesty is going to happen, or nothing will get done and the "evils" you decry will persist, unresolved.
Extremists are big on talk, but are afraid of real action. They thump their chests proclaiming they're "for the USA", yet threaten to withdraw their support for the President if he dares to compromise as all leaders must to achieve their priorities. Rhetoric like yours simply sets up the President to fail.
I'm used to failing memories from the Trump side. It's not what I want. It is what I expect to happen.
The silliest part about all of this is that it will likely result in funding for a barrier, a pathway to citizenship for DACA kids, and restrictions to chain migration. These are all things he could’ve had this time last year, but opted to wait for a SCOTUS ruling. They just recently declined to hear the case in their upcoming session. By accepting the deal, last January, some on the right would have been disappointed, but nothing would have changed. The Senate would still remain in Republican control and the House would have been lost. The aggravation and optics of this current shut down could have been avoided.
So you're another looking for the President to fail? Fact is, there was a deal last year that would have gotten President Trump his wall funding and normalized the Dreamers, but he reneged because of pressure from his nativist "base". Now the government's shut down and I bet he wishes he'd taken that deal last year.
The GOP is united on wanting more effective border security, but it's only a minority who supports LB's brand of arbitrary cruelty. But that minority is loud and insistent, and has effectively intimidated the President. And so here we are.
Absolutely.
Enough @Jazzhead ...quit stating that people in here want the President to fail. That's complete b.s. and you know it.
Arbitrary cruelty is having American citizens, murdered, gang raped, sodomized, beaten, burned, tortured, etc., by people who shouldn't be here in the first place and our gov't allowing them to continue to pour over our borders!!
I'm done with you... back on ignore!