The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: mystery-ak on February 15, 2018, 02:32:09 pm
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Fla. shooting survivor pleads for gun control: ‘We are children, you guys are the adults’
By Rebecca Savransky - 02/15/18 09:08 AM EST
A student who survived the Florida high school shooting is pleading with Congress to take action to prevent another mass shooting.
"Please, this is the 18th one this year. That's unacceptable. We are children. You guys are the adults," David Hogg said during an interview on CNN.
"You need to take some action and play a role. Work together, come over your politics and get something done."
Hogg said that the fact that there have been so many school shootings "is a testament to where this country has come."
more
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/373981-fla-student-who-survived-shooting-pleads-for-action-on-guns-we-are (http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/373981-fla-student-who-survived-shooting-pleads-for-action-on-guns-we-are)
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Long on emotion, short on realistic proposals.
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And guess what snowflake, there will be a 20th and a 21st because of what liberal leftists have done to the education system over the past 50 years.
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Teacher who survived school shooting breaks down in tears calling for gun control
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/373986-teacher-who-survived-school-shooting-breaks-down-in-tears (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/373986-teacher-who-survived-school-shooting-breaks-down-in-tears)
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Stefan Molyneux Verified account @StefanMolyneux
6h6 hours ago
There is no such thing as gun control. There is only the centralization of gun ownership in the hands of a small political elite and their minions.
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"Melissa Falkowski said she doesn't think the school could have been more prepared"
You were wrong.
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"Melissa Falkowski said she doesn't think the school could have been more prepared"
You were wrong.
The FBI was warned about this jerk - who expressly threatened to shoot up a school - and did nothing. The school knew about him and only told him please don't come here if you're wearing a backpack, or some such thing.
Story about the FBI is at Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/).
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First of all, just because you were at the school, that doesn’t make you a survivor. It also doesn’t give you license to become a future pain in the ass social justice warrior denying constitutional rights to millions who are not dangers to society.
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Stick your collective head in the sand all you want to; that won’t stop it from coming, itll just mean you have no input on the final result.
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The FBI was warned about this jerk - who expressly threatened to shoot up a school - and did nothing. The school knew about him and only told him please don't come here if you're wearing a backpack, or some such thing.
Background checks, ten day waiting periods, gun free school zones.
A guy threatens to shoot up a school and the FBI is warned.
Still he manages to kill 17 kids.
The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over expecting different results each time.
Laws won't fix this problem.
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Background checks, ten day waiting periods, gun free school zones.
A guy threatens to shoot up a school and the FBI is warned.
Still he manages to kill 17 kids.
The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over expecting different results each time.
Laws won't fix this problem.
How did he get the gun?
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How did he get the gun?
The family he was living with had it in a locked gun cabinet..he got the key....per Fox this morning
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Stick your collective head in the sand all you want to; that won’t stop it from coming, itll just mean you have no input on the final result.
Only you seem to see people here with their heads in the sand. Nevertheless, my response will be (as it always is) to make sure to vote for intelligent people who understand and respect the Constitution. For example, I'll be trying Patrick Morrisey defeat Joe Manchin.
When Democrats propose gun laws that resemble those in totalitarian regimes, as they will, perhaps the commonsense Constitution-respecting ones we elect will put the kibosh on their plans. We already have enough gun laws, O, we just have criminals who decline to obey them.
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Only you seem to see people here with their heads in the sand. Nevertheless, my response will be (as it always is) to make sure to vote for intelligent people who understand and respect the Constitution. For example, I'll be trying Patrick Morrisey defeat Joe Manchin.
When Democrats propose gun laws that resemble those in totalitarian regimes, as they will, perhaps the commonsense Constitution-respecting ones we elect will put the kibosh on their plans. We already have enough gun laws, O, we just have criminals who decline to obey them.
You are an example of someone sticking their head in the sand.
Oh well, you’ve been warned. Do nothing, and soon you’ll have no Second Amendment at all.
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You keep saying that, but I have yet to see you propose what we're all supposed to do. "You've been warned, do nothing." Okay, do WHAT? Be specific.
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You are an example of someone sticking their head in the sand.
Oh well, you’ve been warned. Do nothing, and soon you’ll have no Second Amendment at all.
LOL. You think the group of people who can't get rid of Obamacare and pass a reasonable budget are all of a sudden eliminate one of the first ten amendments in the blink of an eye? Absurd.
BTW if anyone was serious about this problem they would start by banning the publication of the shooters name and face. 90% of these events occur because the person is looking for fame and glory in the press.
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How did he get the gun?
Why didn't the FBI act when warned?
Why did the DOD not flag Kelly, the Texas Church shooter as being not eligible to own a firearm?
Why were neighbors of Farook and Malik in San Bernadino afraid to report suspicious behavior they witnessed prior to that shooting?
Why didn't anyone take the parents of Eliot Rogers seriously when they reported to authorities their kid was gonna go off?
More laws will not stop this if we've already seen those in place will not be properly acted upon.
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*sigh* If only murder were illegal, then none of this would happen.
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"You need to take some action and play a role. Work together, come over your politics and get something done."
Did you know Cruz was considered a threat? Did you tell you parents? Did you rally a group of concerned students and parents to meet with the administration to find out what, exactly, is being done to prevent a tragedy?
Did anyone??
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How did he get the gun?
It was his gun that he had legally bought as confirmed by the ATF. BTW -- Lewis is the attorney representing the family he was living with:
Cruz already owned the AR-15 rifle when he moved in with his friend’s family, Lewis said, noting that he was told that Cruz had bought it legally. “It was his gun. He had brought it to the house when he moved in. It was secured in a gun cabinet in the house, but he had the key to it. I believe it was secured in his room,†Lewis said. The family had not seen Cruz shooting the AR-15 since he moved in.
Authorities confirmed that Cruz bought the AR-15 himself, and so far it is the only gun that has been recovered as part of the investigation, said Peter J. Forcelli, special agent in charge of the Miami field division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
“He purchased the firearm legally,†Forcelli said in an interview Thursday morning. “No laws were broken in his acquisition of the firearm.â€
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229)
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@Concerned
Thanks for the additional info...the report I heard on FOX was a little lacking I see....did not state it was his weapon but implied it was owned by the family he was staying with.
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@Concerned
Thanks for the additional info...the report I heard on FOX was a little lacking I see....did not state it was his weapon but implied it was owned by the family he was staying with.
:beer:
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What do you want, pass more meaningless laws that won't make a damn bit of difference, other than to make it more difficult for law-abiding Americans to defend themselves?
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It was his gun that he had legally bought as confirmed by the ATF. BTW -- Lewis is the attorney representing the family he was living with:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-guns-depression-and-a-life-in-free-fall/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_cruz-profile-533am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c8f20da02229)
How is a teenager allowed to purchase a gun??
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How is a teenager allowed to purchase a gun??
An 18 year old can buy a rifle or shotgun. you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in Florida.
His age isn't the danger flag, its his documented mental issues and threats of violence that should have prevented his ability to buy a gun.
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How is a teenager allowed to purchase a gun??
You can legally purchase long guns at age 18.
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You can legally purchase long guns at age 18.
Why?
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Why?
Because an 18 year old is a legal adult.
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Why?
Why not? You can join the military at age 18 and be issued a rifle.
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Because the military can hand you a machine gun at 18. 18 year olds are adults. But you have to be 21 to buy a pistol.
If this guy was being treated for a severe mental illness, it should have been illegal for him to have a gun.
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Because an 18 year old is a legal adult.
My Dad bought me a Monkey Wards 12 Gauge for christmas when I was 15 or 16. When I was 18 I bought the one I wanted!.. ;)
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Why not? You can join the military at age 18 and be issued a rifle.
Then we need separate and more intrusive background checks for these teens.
And no, I don't care if the military gives a thumbs up.
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My Dad bought me a Monkey Wards 12 Gauge for christmas when I was 15 or 16. When I was 18 I bought the one I wanted!.. ;)
Funny how there seems to be a inverse relationship between availability of guns and lunatic mass shootings.
But yeah, more laws are what're needed.
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Funny how there seems to be a inverse relationship between availability of guns and lunatic mass shootings.
But yeah, more laws are what're needed.
True. Which reminds me. I need to keep a close eye on what these elected clowns in Tallahassee try to do in the coming months. The knees are jerking pretty badly.
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Then we need separate and more intrusive background checks for these teens.
And no, I don't care if the military gives a thumbs up.
You can be a mentally ill mass murderer at any age. Stephen Paddock was in his 60s.
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Then we need separate and more intrusive background checks for these teens.
And no, I don't care if the military gives a thumbs up.
What we need is incarceration for people that make threats to shoot up schools.
What we need is that mentally troubled people with a history of violence to be in a hospital until they are deemed safe to be around.
What we don't need is more stupid laws that only effect law abiding people.
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You can be a mentally ill mass murderer at any age. Stephen Paddock was in his 60s.
I'm tired of teenagers leading a charge to mass murder other teenagers. So right now, I don't care about "any age".
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What we need is incarceration for people that make threats to shoot up schools.
What we need is that mentally troubled people with a history of violence to be in a hospital until they are deemed safe to be around.
What we don't need is more stupid laws that only effect law abiding people.
In case you haven't noticed, law abiding people are the ones being killed. So, please, spare me the platitudes.
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The FBI was warned about this jerk - who expressly threatened to shoot up a school - and did nothing. The school knew about him and only told him please don't come here if you're wearing a backpack, or some such thing.
Story about the FBI is at Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/nikolas-cruz-reported-fbi-potential-school-shooter-september-screenshot-threat/).
The FBI couldn't be bothered, since they were busy exonerating Hillary and framing Trump. No time for crime prevention.
Boston Marathon, San Bernardino, Orlando Florida, Garland TX, and others that were "on their radar," too.
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I'm tired of teenagers leading a charge to mass murder other teenagers. So right now, I don't care about "any age".
This is precisely why laws shouldn't be based on emotional response in the wake of a crime.
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In case you haven't noticed, law abiding people are the ones being killed. So, please, spare me the platitudes.
@Right_in_Virginia
Ok RIV, take a deep breath and use that lump of fatty flesh sitting on your shoulders.
This occurred in a gun free zone. So no matter what having a gun there was illegal.
Most of what this guy did was illegal from the time he left his house until he got arrested. So how would making another law which would impact only law abiding people have helped prevent this?
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I'm tired of teenagers leading a charge to mass murder other teenagers. So right now, I don't care about "any age".
Why oh why can't they just run them over with their cars standing outside the school house.
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Secured buildings, metal detectors if needed. They are at sports events and airports and usually take only a minimum to get through.
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@Right_in_Virginia
Ok RIV, take a deep breath and use that lump of fatty flesh sitting on your shoulders.
This occurred in a gun free zone. So no matter what having a gun there was illegal.
Most of what this guy did was illegal from the time he left his house until he got arrested. So how would making another law which would impact only law abiding people have helped prevent this?
What does this babble have to do with limiting gun purchases for teenagers?
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The worst school massacre in America wasn't the result of a psycho with a gun, it happened in 1927 by a bomb.
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You can be questioned by SS agents and hauled off to jail and possibly imprisoned for threatening the life of the president. If they can prove that a very high number of these nuts on social media actually go off, then I favor taking action against anybody directly threatening to kill other people on social media as this creep did.
As in " I'm going down to the school/office/factory etc. and start shooting people." I'm not talking about someone saying "if so and so harms my child or loved one, I'm going to kill them." That is an indirect threat or warning
At the very least have their weapons confiscated.
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You can be questioned by SS agents and hauled off to jail and possibly imprisoned for threatening the life of the president. If they can prove that a very high number of these nuts on social media actually go off, then I favor taking action against anybody directly threatening to kill other people on social media as this creep did.
As in " I'm going down to the school/office/factory etc. and start shooting people." I'm not talking about someone saying "if so and so harms my child or loved one, I'm going to kill them." That is an indirect threat or warning
At the very least have their weapons confiscated.
@goatprairie
Its already a crime to make a threat to a school. This guy did that multiple times but was not prosecuted.
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@goatprairie
Its already a crime to make a threat to a school. This guy did that multiple times but was not prosecuted.
Maybe they should start prosecuting these types.
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Then we need separate and more intrusive background checks for these teens.
And no, I don't care if the military gives a thumbs up.
The FBI was specifically told this individual was a threat and still did nothing.
What type of background check do you envision would have stopped his purchase? He wasn't a criminal.
And do you honestly believe an individual willing to shoot a crowd of people would not find another means, such as simply running the crowd over with a truck?
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What does this babble have to do with limiting gun purchases for teenagers?
Being 19 wasn't the cause of this guy's problems and his willingness to kill innocent people. He wasn't going to become magically safe when he turned 21.
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Stick your collective head in the sand all you want to; that won’t stop it from coming, itll just mean you have no input on the final result.
We will have absolutely no input on the final result of where we will be taken regardless of whether or not we surrender our rights in advance - simply because the mob demands we surrender to totalitarianism.
You can advocate incremental surrender to despotism because it is going to be inevitable all you like.
Most of us are going to refuse to take part in our own enslavement to tyranny by disarming ourselves and handing government even more power to intrude upon and police our lives.
But like I suggested on the other thread - you push for this - precedent being set - the First Amendment will be the next target to be advocated be surrendered to get rid of the scourge of hate speech and hate-beliefs which is where gun violence originates.
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Many western European countries have strict laws about citizens owning firearms. The citizenry is for the most part effectively defenseless against a tyrannical government.
Of course, the liberal citizens of the countries say it can't happen in their countries...they're democracies. They say that as they allow numerous people from countries with no history of democracy and no interest in assimilating into their new countries.
In fifty years a number of western European countries will be majority Muslim. What will the non-Muslim citizens do when the Muslim majority demands sharia for the country? They'll meekly submit that's what. They'll be dhimmis for the rest of their miserable lives.
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Being 19 wasn't the cause of this guy's problems and his willingness to kill innocent people. He wasn't going to become magically safe when he turned 21.
If anything, he'd have 3 more years to be a loser, get fired multiple times, stew about it, and do something then.
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Stick your collective head in the sand all you want to; that won’t stop it from coming, itll just mean you have no input on the final result.
Kinda like all the input we had on Obamacare?
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Kinda like all the input we had on Obamacare?
Yeah... that.
Or border security.
Or spending.
Or taxation.
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Kinda like all the input we had on Obamacare?
No kidding. I lived in Ohio at the time. Obama won the state twice. However, when the insurance mandate was put to a state ballot, it was voted down by 66% of the electorate. It still got enforced, anyway.
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....Why did the DOD not flag Kelly, the Texas Church shooter as being not eligible to own a firearm?...
Just on this point, the DOD has since increased the number of flags from 7000 to 11000 (per my husband -- I'll ask him where the numbers come from). It looks like the military doesn't (didn't?) take these warnings seriously enough.
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Background checks, ten day waiting periods, gun free school zones.
A guy threatens to shoot up a school and the FBI is warned.
Still he manages to kill 17 kids.
The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over expecting different results each time.
Laws won't fix this problem.
In FL there is no waiting period to buy a rifle/AR15. Only a handgun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- this seems really stupid.
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In FL there is no waiting period to buy a rifle/AR15. Only a handgun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- this seems really stupid.
I did
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How is a teenager allowed to purchase a gun??
A teenager in FL can't buy a handgun. Only a rifle/AR15. Which is ridiculous to me.
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Because the military can hand you a machine gun at 18. 18 year olds are adults. But you have to be 21 to buy a pistol.
If this guy was being treated for a severe mental illness, it should have been illegal for him to have a gun.
President Trump signed a repeal of an Obama era check on mentally ill individuals owning guns. It had just gone into effect in December 2017 (sorry, 2016).
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I did
That's what I've been asking all day. Where were the security measures to keep nuts like him from entering?
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Being 19 wasn't the cause of this guy's problems and his willingness to kill innocent people. He wasn't going to become magically safe when he turned 21.
True.
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What does this babble have to do with limiting gun purchases for teenagers?
I largely agree with you. But I can understand buying a shotgun or rifle for hunting at 18. An AR15 seems like overkill, no pun intended.
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I did
Where?
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President Trump signed a repeal of an Obama era check on mentally ill individuals owning guns. It had just gone into effect in December 2017.
That's bullshit. This is a question and has been a question on the background check form for as long as I've been old enough to buy a handgun.
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
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A teenager in FL can't buy a handgun. Only a rifle/AR15. Which is ridiculous to me.
I agree. An 18 year old should be able to buy a handgun also if they want to and are otherwise legally able to.
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President Trump signed a repeal of an Obama era check on mentally ill individuals owning guns. It had just gone into effect in December 2017.
The rule never actually went into effect.. and it wouldn't have affected Cruz's ability to buy an AR. And I hope Trump eliminates or rescinds ALL of the Obama regulations and rules.
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@Wingnut You are way out of line if you are inferring that @LauraTXNM is anything other than a New Member worthy of all of ours respect. Your attitude is incomprehensible, to me anyway.
Laura you have officially meet one of the curmudgeons here (there's not many), The rest of US Love you and give you the benefit of the doubt as a Newbie.
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That's what I've been asking all day. Where were the security measures to keep nuts like him from entering?
This, too!
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I agree. An 18 year old should be able to buy a handgun also if they want to and are otherwise legally able to.
Do you have any idea why they created the different rules?
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That's bullshit. This is a question and has been a question on the background check form for as long as I've been old enough to buy a handgun.
Does a background check access that info, in case the purchaser lies? If a crazy person is buying a gun, I'm not sure why s/he'd tell the truth on the form.
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That's what I've been asking all day. Where were the security measures to keep nuts like him from entering?
I want to know what the hell this school's Principal, teachers were doing?. Did any one of them notify any authority about the email blast warning teachers about this ex-student? Was it even discussed?
They clearly didn't increase security.
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The rest of US Love you...
Are you one of those 'first sight' saps...? :tongue2:
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Do you have any idea why they created the different rules?
Concealability
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@Wingnut You are way out of line if you are inferring that @LauraTXNM is anything other than a New Member worthy of all of ours respect. Your attitude is incomprehensible, to me anyway.
Laura you have officially meet one of the curmudgeons here (there's not many), The rest of US Love you and give you the benefit of the doubt as a Newbie.
Thank you, Corbe, and Mystery, and everyone! I am sure there are things I agree and disagree with some posters about. But I appreciate the fact that Mystery's site is not an echo chamber, and you all have substantive discussions and disagreements. I don't know answers to many if any questions, and I'd like to learn from you all.
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Does a background check access that info, in case the purchaser lies? If a crazy person is buying a gun, I'm not sure why s/he'd tell the truth on the form.
It does, if the info has been reported.
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Concealability
Really?! That seems even crazier. They trust 18-year-olds enough to vote and enlist, but not to carry a handgun? Doesn't FL have concealed carry?
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It does, if the info has been reported.
So the problem is reporting requirements for mental illness?
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Are you one of those 'first sight' saps...? :tongue2:
No @edpc Couldn't find my glasses this morning took the Blue Pill instead of the red one, I even proposed to the girl at the grocery store this afternoon.
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So the problem is reporting requirements for mental illness?
I think the problem is enforcement of the requirement to report mental illness.
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Really?! That seems even crazier. They trust 18-year-olds enough to vote and enlist, but not to carry a handgun? Doesn't FL have concealed carry?
Yes, we have concealed carry.
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No @edpc Couldn't find my glasses this morning took the Blue Pill instead of the red one, I even proposed to the girl at the grocery store this afternoon.
I bat my lashes at you, sir ;).
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Yes, we have concealed carry.
I thought so. Why the ban on 18-21 year olds and handguns? It's a crime prevention measure?
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Really?! That seems even crazier. They trust 18-year-olds enough to vote and enlist, but not to carry a handgun? Doesn't FL have concealed carry?
Yes, but the school is 'gun-free zone' anyway.
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I thought so. Why the ban on 18-21 year olds and handguns? It's a crime prevention measure?
I'm not really sure, but I suspect it's for the same reason that 18 year olds can't drink.
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I'm not really sure, but I suspect it's for the same reason that 18 year olds can't drink.
So ridiculous ;(.
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No @edpc Couldn't find my glasses this morning took the Blue Pill instead of the red one, I even proposed to the girl at the grocery store this afternoon.
That's OK. Every six weeks, I am on after hours on-call duty for technical support. A couple years ago, I was full of Percocet after minor surgery. I got a call from a hospital in Boston at 2AM.
Somehow, I managed to help them through their problem successfully. The nurse said, "Thank you, goodnight."
I replied, "Good night, love you."
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Yes, but the school is 'gun-free zone' anyway.
I know the school had one(!) armed security guard. Doesnt FL now allow teachers to carry on campus?
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Do you have any idea why they created the different rules?
@LauraTXNM
Yes the higher age for handguns was enacted as part of a gun control law. They thought it would keep handguns away from gangbangers.
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In FL there is no waiting period to buy a rifle/AR15. Only a handgun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- this seems really stupid.
He had talked about this for months and owned the rifle for at least months. 3 day waiting period would have had no impact. Don't ask for new laws that just pretend to but make no real difference.
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Really?! That seems even crazier. They trust 18-year-olds enough to vote and enlist, but not to carry a handgun? Doesn't FL have concealed carry?
They also don't trust 18 year olds enough to purchase alcohol. Does this upset you?
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They also don't trust 18 year olds enough to purchase alcohol. Does this upset you?
If you can legally enter a contract, be tried as an adult, or serve your country, you should be able to have a drink. Make it one consistent standard, not arbitrary numbers for different things.
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They also don't trust 18 year olds enough to purchase alcohol. Does this upset you?
Yep.
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They also don't trust 18 year olds enough to purchase alcohol. Does this upset you?
I think it's kind of stupid; my husband is Canadian, and I have friends in Western Europe. I generally think the inconsistencies here are just silly.
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He had talked about this for months and owned the rifle for at least months. 3 day waiting period would have had no impact. Don't ask for new laws that just pretend to but make no real difference.
Sorry, I was unclear. The discrepancy just seems pointless to me. You have to wait to buy a handgun, but not an AR15? (I mean, an adult over 21.). That just seems pointless. Waiting period for all or none.
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Sorry, I was unclear. The discrepancy just seems pointless to me. You have to wait to buy a handgun, but not an AR15? (I mean, an adult over 21.). That just seems pointless. Waiting period for all or none.
@LauraTXNM
The round an ar15 fires is actually less powerful then almost every other round. Ar15s function the same as many other guns. They just look different.
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@LauraTXNM
The round an ar15 fires is actually less powerful then almost every other round. Ar15s function the same as many other guns. They just look different.
Right! So why the change in waiting time? It seems like a distinction without a difference.
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Sorry, I was unclear. The discrepancy just seems pointless to me. You have to wait to buy a handgun, but not an AR15? (I mean, an adult over 21.). That just seems pointless. Waiting period for all or none.
@LauraTXNM
In Florida you have to wait 3 days for all gun purchases unless you have a concealed permit.
Waiting periods don't do anything.
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Right! So why the change in waiting time? It seems like a distinction without a difference.
@LauraTXNM
Because gun laws are a hodge podge mess. Gun controllers have tried to pass any law to make firearm ownership more difficult for law abiding people. So we end up with a very complicated and useless laws.
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@LauraTXNM
In Florida you have to wait 3 days for all gun purchases unless you have a concealed permit.
Waiting periods don't do anything.
Agreed, but I thought there WAS NO waiting period to buy a rifle. That's what I thought was strange. I'm obviously wrong, and there's a 3-day wait for both rifles and handguns. Correct?
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Agreed, but I thought there WAS NO waiting period to buy a rifle. That's what I thought was strange. I'm obviously wrong, and there's a 3-day wait for both rifles and handguns. Correct?
Waiting period for all firearm purchases from a licensed dealer.
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Victim's aunt calls for action, not prayers, after shooting
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — In an open letter addressed "Dear America," the aunt of a 14-year-old killed in a Florida school shooting calls for action — not prayers — to put an end to gun violence.
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"My family does not want your hopes and prayers. We want your action. Join us in fighting the NRA. Join us in deposing any politician who cares more about campaign contributions than my beautiful Jaime. Join us in supporting leaders who will bravely fight for our children's lives," Youkilis writes.
Gun rights advocates have distorted the Second Amendment right to bear arms beyond rational interpretation, she says.
"Why is your hunting hobby more important than my niece's life?" Youkilis writes. "Why should my niece have been sacrificed at the altar of your 'freedoms?'"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html)
:facepalm2:
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Waiting period for all firearm purchases from a licensed dealer.
http://blog.blacksidetactical.com/ar-15-florida (http://blog.blacksidetactical.com/ar-15-florida)
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Waiting period for all firearm purchases from a licensed dealer.
Off-topic but It's interesting -- in FL if you have a CCL there's no waiting period. Does anyone know where else that's true?
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I reside in Kansas. I can purchase a long gun or handgun the same day, if I pass the instant background check on the Form 4473. As a KS resident with a driver's license, I can conceal carry within the state as a legal gun owner. I can open carry as well. Many people still do get the CC license for reciprocity purposes in other states.
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In FL there is no waiting period to buy a rifle/AR15. Only a handgun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- this seems really stupid.
North Dakota has no waiting period to buy either one. Either you pass NICS or you don't. We call this "normal", despite the phone call part.
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Victim's aunt calls for action, not prayers, after shooting
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — In an open letter addressed "Dear America," the aunt of a 14-year-old killed in a Florida school shooting calls for action — not prayers — to put an end to gun violence.
*****************************************
"My family does not want your hopes and prayers. We want your action. Join us in fighting the NRA. Join us in deposing any politician who cares more about campaign contributions than my beautiful Jaime. Join us in supporting leaders who will bravely fight for our children's lives," Youkilis writes.
Gun rights advocates have distorted the Second Amendment right to bear arms beyond rational interpretation, she says.
"Why is your hunting hobby more important than my niece's life?" Youkilis writes. "Why should my niece have been sacrificed at the altar of your 'freedoms?'"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html)
:facepalm2:
I see that as an even greater need for our prayers. Poor woman must be really hurting to be that irrational. :0001:
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Victim's aunt calls for action, not prayers, after shooting
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — In an open letter addressed "Dear America," the aunt of a 14-year-old killed in a Florida school shooting calls for action — not prayers — to put an end to gun violence.
*****************************************
"My family does not want your hopes and prayers. We want your action. Join us in fighting the NRA. Join us in deposing any politician who cares more about campaign contributions than my beautiful Jaime. Join us in supporting leaders who will bravely fight for our children's lives," Youkilis writes.
Gun rights advocates have distorted the Second Amendment right to bear arms beyond rational interpretation, she says.
"Why is your hunting hobby more important than my niece's life?" Youkilis writes. "Why should my niece have been sacrificed at the altar of your 'freedoms?'"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html)
:facepalm2:
I must wonder if this individual would be upset with Hollywood, too? Hollywood’s exploitation of gun violence does nothing to promote training or gun safety. The NRA does that and more to help members and non-members alike learn how to protect life and property safely.
Not to make light in the seriousness of this tragic event, but the knees be a’jerking faster than frog legs in a pan of salt water.
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It’s really odd how none of these mass shooters are ever found to have tons of Charlton Heston memorabilia, journals containing lamentations over the unrequited love of Wayne LaPierre, and stacks of American Rifleman magazine.
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I must wonder if this individual would be upset with Hollywood, too? Hollywood’s exploitation of gun violence does nothing to promote training or gun safety. The NRA does that and more to help members and non-members alike learn how to protect life and property safely.
Not to make light in the seriousness of this tragic event, but the knees be a’jerking faster than frog legs in a pan of salt water.
Not to mention the violent video games so many young people play.
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Sorry, I was unclear. The discrepancy just seems pointless to me. You have to wait to buy a handgun, but not an AR15? (I mean, an adult over 21.). That just seems pointless. Waiting period for all or none.
Handguns are treated differently on several levels. Federal law requires you have to be 21 to buy and handgun or ammo suitable for handguns (ammo rarely enforced due to so many crossovers these days). License to Carry permits require you to be 21.
The Three day waiting period is from state law. There is no waiting period for long guns or handguns in Texas.
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Victim's aunt calls for action, not prayers, after shooting
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — In an open letter addressed "Dear America," the aunt of a 14-year-old killed in a Florida school shooting calls for action — not prayers — to put an end to gun violence.
*****************************************
"My family does not want your hopes and prayers. We want your action. Join us in fighting the NRA. Join us in deposing any politician who cares more about campaign contributions than my beautiful Jaime. Join us in supporting leaders who will bravely fight for our children's lives," Youkilis writes.
Gun rights advocates have distorted the Second Amendment right to bear arms beyond rational interpretation, she says.
"Why is your hunting hobby more important than my niece's life?" Youkilis writes. "Why should my niece have been sacrificed at the altar of your 'freedoms?'"
https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html)
:facepalm2:
The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting. Why should millions of Americans have to live in fear and be unable to defend their loved ones?
Sorry about your niece but she might have survived if the school wasn't a gun free zone and there were capable people armed.
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Ms. Youkilis should talk with members of the Texas church in Sutherland Springs who are still alive, because an armed citizen stopped the carnage and pursued the shooter.
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@Concerned
Thanks for the additional info...the report I heard on FOX was a little lacking I see....did not state it was his weapon but implied it was owned by the family he was staying with.
Is it time to start holding families accountable then for this kind of stuff?
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As the great aunt of 6 beautiful, extremely loving and exceptionally bright great nieces currently in elementary school and another great niece in college, I can’t say for absolute certainty that if any of them were shot and killed in a senseless school shooting by some nut case, that my initial emotional response and stemming from my inconsolable grief, that it wouldn’t cause me to abandon my pro 2nd A stance and call for something, anything to be done to prevent it from happening again. That I think is human nature. It’s all too easy to demonize these people until someone you know and love is a victim.
I couldn’t imagine if my family was impacted or if any of my loved ones died, that I would react with a sort of cold and detached indifference and defend a position that the 2nd A doesn’t come with any sort of rational restrictions.
On one hand I don’t want an erosion of 2nd A rights that keeps fire arms even AR 15’s out of the hands of responsible gun owners, and from what I can tell, they are more numerous than the irresponsible folks or the nut cases. And I have many responsible gun owners in my family and FWIW, none of them are hunters, all have guns for self and home and family defense and my nephew is a CC holder and often goes armed including to restaurants and movie theaters although you would never know it.
But obviously this kid was mentally unstable and IMO, something has to be done to, even if we can’t prevent such a person from going on a rampage using other means or from getting a gun illegally, he shouldn’t even have been allowed to legally purchase at 18 years old and with his history an AR15 and ammo when the very same law in Florida would have not have allowed him to legally purchase a pistol.
And as for arming teachers or aids or volunteers in schools, while I think that may be a great idea, it will come to an abrupt end the very first time some teacher or aid or volunteer who was perhaps not properly vetted or suddenly goes berserk, goes on a rampage and kills the very kids they were supposed to be protecting.
Flame away if you like but that’s just my opinion.
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...And as for arming teachers or aids or volunteers in schools, while I think that may be a great idea, it will come to an abrupt end the very first time some teacher or aid or volunteer who was perhaps not properly vetted or suddenly goes berserk, goes on a rampage and kills the very kids they were supposed to be protecting.
Flame away if you like but that’s just my opinion.
Someone unstable enough to shoot innocent kids, would be bringing in the gun regardless of rules permitting the carry after training and certification.
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I got an idea, hold the adults accountable. They had a little bastard kid who had access to guns.
Throw those idiots in jail.
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If they only had a law against bringing guns into schools, none of this would have happened.
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Is it time to start holding families accountable then for this kind of stuff?
Right. Your relative borrows your hammer (with or without your consent and knowledge) and uses it to beat someone. Should you go to jail for having a hammer?
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I got an idea, hold the adults accountable. They had a little bastard kid who had access to guns.
Throw those idiots in jail.
I believe his parents are dead.
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I believe his parents are dead.
You are right, says he was living with a "family friend". Hold this person accountable then, especially if it can be proven they knew this guy was making these sorts of threats.
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You are right, says he was living with a "family friend". Hold this person accountable then, especially if it can be proven they knew this guy was making these sorts of threats.
Prior to that, local authorities were very familiar with this family.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,304389.0.html (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,304389.0.html)
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Gun Control laws are simply laws that say "We can't stop someone from shooting up a school but we can stop you from legally defending yourself".
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In case you haven't noticed, law abiding people are the ones being killed. So, please, spare me the platitudes.
This is true. And at some point, the number of law abiding people who feel (justifiably) threatened by a nation awash in some half a billion guns will outnumber the law abiding people who are too selfish to accept any restriction whatsoever on their hobby.
This is Oceander's point - be part of the solution now or be marginalized - and cede to the "other side" the content of our gun laws. More to the point, the absolutist position will soon no longer be political tenable for either responsible conservatives or Republicans. Indeed, the real danger is that the Dems will effectively use the absolutist position to smear the entire party, and gain political hegemony in the process. And then the RKBA will truly be at risk.
What are the solutions? Obviously, there is no silver bullet (pun intended), and, like most complex problems, a multifaceted approach is required. Some of the solutions proposed by the absolutists make sense, such as placing armed security guards in schools. But the hobbyists need to understand that a system of licensure, registration and insurance is needed for guns for the same reasons it is needed for motor vehicles. Guns and cars are both useful and necessary implements, as well as potentially deadly. (Indeed the purpose of a firearm is to be deadly - it is, for example, the equalizer for a small woman being threatened by a large man.) But a regime of insurance, as it does with cars, encourages both responsibility and safe practices and creates a system of compensation for the victims of gun violence. If a legal gun owner must insure his arsenal, and be financially responsible for harm caused while in his custody, he will be incentivized to inventory his guns, keep them away from others, and notify the police promptly when lost or stolen.
There may be a host of other reasonable, efficacious solutions as well, that won't impact the natural and Constitutionally protected right of a father to protect his home and family against intruders, or a woman to feel safe when out alone, or a sportsman to hunt and shoot, or a hobbyist to collect his treasures.
But like Oceander says, if you're not willing to be part of the solution, the solution won't include you.
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This is true. And at some point, the number of law abiding people who feel (justifiably) threatened by a nation awash in some half a billion guns will outnumber the law abiding people who are too selfish to accept any restriction whatsoever on their hobby.
What other rights do you consider to be ‘hobbies’....?
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This is true. And at some point, the number of law abiding people who feel (justifiably) threatened by a nation awash in some half a billion guns will outnumber the law abiding people who are too selfish to accept any restriction whatsoever on their hobby.
This is Oceander's point - be part of the solution now or be marginalized - and cede to the "other side" the content of our gun laws. More to the point, the absolutist position will soon no longer be political tenable for either responsible conservatives or Republicans. Indeed, the real danger is that the Dems will effectively use the absolutist position to smear the entire party, and gain political hegemony in the process. And the RKBA will truly be at risk.
What are the solutions? Obviously, there is no silver bullet (pun intended), and, like most complex problems, required a multifaceted approach. Some of the solutions proposed by the absolutists make sense, such as placing armed security guards in schools. But the hobbyists need to understand that a system of licensure, registration and insurance is needed for guns for the same reasons it is needed for motor vehicles. Guns and cars are both useful and necessary implements, as well as potentially deadly. (Indeed the purpose of a firearm is to be deadly - it is, for example, the equalizer for a small woman being threatened by a large man.) But a regime of insurance, as it does with cars, encourages both responsibility and safe practices and creates a system of compensation for the victims of gun violence. If a legal gun owner must insure his arsenal, and be responsible for the harm caused while in his custody, he will be incentivized to inventory his guns, keep them away from others, and notify the police promptly when lost or stolen.
There may be a host of other reasonable, efficacious solutions as well, that won't impact the natural and Constitutionally protected right of a father to protect his home and family against intruders, or a woman to feel safe when out alone, or a sportsman to hunt and shoot, or a hobbyist to collect his treasures.
But like Oceander says, if you're not willing to be part of the solution, the solution won't include you.
@Jazzhead @Oceander
Interesting that anyone who doesn't agree with your specific "solution" more gun control on law abiding citizens is just refusing to be part of making America Great Again.
Right?
You won't explain what your solution is, just that its reasonable. Which we all know it means registration and eventual confiscation.
You refuse to address why gun crime is so isolated to certain parts of the country.
Its almost like you have a hidden agenda.
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What other rights do you consider ‘hobbies’....?
It's not an absolute right. Heller confirms that the RKBA is subject to regulation so long as the right is not denied. And even you will, I assume, concede that with rights come responsibilities.
Second amendment absolutists tend to be hobbyists. Would you prefer I use a less neutral term?
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Which we all know it means registration and eventual confiscation.
Bullshit. The appeal to the slippery slope is the weakest form of argument. Has car insurance lead to confiscation?
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It's not an absolute right. Heller confirms that the RKBA is subject to regulation so long as the right is not denied. And even you will, I assume, concede that with rights come responsibilities.
Second amendment absolutists tend to be hobbyists. Would you prefer I use a less neutral term?
Are 1st amendment absolutists also hobbyists? How about the 7th? the 13th? 19th?
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Bullshit. The appeal to the slippery slope is the weakest form of argument. Has car insurance lead to confiscation?
History refutes you.
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....And at some point, the number of law abiding people who feel (justifiably) threatened by a nation awash in some half a billion guns will outnumber the law abiding people who are too selfish to accept any restriction whatsoever on their hobby....
Apparently roughly 30% of US households have guns. I don't know if that sizeable minority will be changing any time soon. But it is a minority.
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History refutes you.
Bullshit. Again - has car insurance led to confiscation?
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Apparently roughly 30% of US households have guns. I don't know if that sizeable minority will be changing any time soon. But it is a minority.
And another 36% are open to owning a firearm.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/ (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/)
(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/06/20104800/PSDT_2017.06.22.guns-01-11.png)
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Apparently roughly 30% of US households have guns. I don't know if that sizeable minority will be changing any time soon. But it is a minority.
Laura - please accept my warm welcome to this little group of ours.
30% of US households own guns, and I'll bet the vast majority of them understand the need for reasonable regulation of the devices.
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Bullshit. Again - has car insurance led to confiscation?
You don't need insurance to have a car. You need insurance to use a car. So it is a useless analogy.
I'm all in favor of people needing insurance to shoot up a school.
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Bullshit. Again - has car insurance led to confiscation?
@Jazzhead
Try driving without insurance and see if your car gets confiscated. man you are dumb
But its not about cars despite your efforts to deflect. Its about firearms.
History is quite clear, when weapons are registered they end up being confiscated, when they are confiscated the people end up losing their rights and the govt becomes oppressive.
A woman from Tampa was attacked in London. The man tried to rape her. She stabbed him with a pen and was arrested. Example after example. Crime goes up,( murders, rapes, robbery, theft) and personal liberty goes down.
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Laura - please accept my warm welcome to this little group of ours.
30% of US households own guns, and I'll bet the vast majority of them understand the need for reasonable regulation of the devices.
Thank you, Jazzhead!
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It's not an absolute right. Heller confirms that the RKBA is subject to regulation so long as the right is not denied. And even you will, I assume, concede that with rights come responsibilities.
Second amendment absolutists tend to be hobbyists. Would you prefer I use a less neutral term?
I absolutely have the right to bear arms and protect myself. My job requires travel, sometimes in off hours, into unsafe areas. I carry because of the others in society who have the hobby of assaulting people and taking things that aren’t theirs.
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You don't need insurance to have a car. You need insurance to use a car. So it is a useless analogy.
Why? Cars are useful but can cause harm to others when misused. Guns are useful but can cause harm to others when misused. The analogy regarding the need for insurance is perfectly appropriate, giving due allowance to the difference in the nature of the devices.
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I absolutely have the right to bear arms and protect myself. My job requires travel, sometimes in off hours, into unsafe areas.
Straw man. No one disagrees with that. Your job no doubt also requires that you drive a car. But why shouldn't you be required to register and insure your gun just as you do your car?
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Straw man. No one disagrees with that. Your job no doubt also requires that you drive a car. But why shouldn't you be required to register and insure your gun just as you do your car?
Why shouldn't you be required to register your keyboard?
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Straw man. No one disagrees with that. Your job no doubt also requires that you drive a car. But why shouldn't you be required to register and insure your gun just as you do your car?
Probably because I don’t have a right to own a car, the vehicle is provided by the company, and insured through them.
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As the great aunt of 6 beautiful, extremely loving and exceptionally bright great nieces currently in elementary school and another great niece in college, I can’t say for absolute certainty that if any of them were shot and killed in a senseless school shooting by some nut case, that my initial emotional response and stemming from my inconsolable grief, that it wouldn’t cause me to abandon my pro 2nd A stance and call for something, anything to be done to prevent it from happening again. That I think is human nature. It’s all too easy to demonize these people until someone you know and love is a victim.
I couldn’t imagine if my family was impacted or if any of my loved ones died, that I would react with a sort of cold and detached indifference and defend a position that the 2nd A doesn’t come with any sort of rational restrictions.
On one hand I don’t want an erosion of 2nd A rights that keeps fire arms even AR 15’s out of the hands of responsible gun owners, and from what I can tell, they are more numerous than the irresponsible folks or the nut cases. And I have many responsible gun owners in my family and FWIW, none of them are hunters, all have guns for self and home and family defense and my nephew is a CC holder and often goes armed including to restaurants and movie theaters although you would never know it.
But obviously this kid was mentally unstable and IMO, something has to be done to, even if we can’t prevent such a person from going on a rampage using other means or from getting a gun illegally, he shouldn’t even have been allowed to legally purchase at 18 years old and with his history an AR15 and ammo when the very same law in Florida would have not have allowed him to legally purchase a pistol.
And as for arming teachers or aids or volunteers in schools, while I think that may be a great idea, it will come to an abrupt end the very first time some teacher or aid or volunteer who was perhaps not properly vetted or suddenly goes berserk, goes on a rampage and kills the very kids they were supposed to be protecting.
Flame away if you like but that’s just my opinion.
Not flaming. Emotion runs high in the days after an event like this, which is why I made the comment on this thread that this woman and others in similar straits are more in need of our prayers than ever.
As for legislation, as cooler heads prevail, it will be obvious that either there is no legislation which could have prevented this event, the security measures were inadequate, or that somewhere in the system that is supposed to prevent people with serious and violent issues from getting a firearm, the system failed to do so.
In the incident where Gabby Giffords was shot, along with a judge who was among the dead, the system failed, apparently subverted by a relative who didn't want Mr. Loughner to suffer the stigma of being branded a nutcase. In this instance, the firearm was obtained (I don't know how) in spite o the safeguards which are supposed to keep them out of the hands of those who are bent on murder.
When systems fail, more system is seldom a viable solution.
I do have a couple of questions, though. Apparently the shooter was no longer a student there. Why go back to school to wreak havoc? Were the issues related to happenings at that (or another ) school? Was the shooter an alumnus? If so, what happened there? If not, why that school when a shopping mall or grocery store would likely have been as much a target rich environment? Why shoot kids instead of the adults?
Not that I really have a desire to peek under that hood, but I think we need to know what is causing this sort of incident (aside from simply evil) and if there are contributing factors, like pharmacology.
If someone is determined to get their hands on weapons to kill people, they will, unless their hands are tied. Even failing to obtain the very best will not stop them from improvising, to the point of making their own firearms, even (Earle Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason stories had a collection of some 50+ homemade weapons, some quite sophisticated, and most prototype weapons were made in someone's shop first). But even then other possibilities aside from firearms exist and could be equally devastating. Firearms are only one class of arms, and some relatively simple weapons could be used against relatively helpless people with devastating effect.
Frankly, the problem isn't the tool used, it is the mind, for whatever reason so demented as to wish to exact, (even temporarily) some such sort of vengeance against a bunch of kids. Those minds may develop in some form of isolation, but not in a vacuum. Something pushed them over that edge, that line between someone filled with resentments and anger to mass murderer, and it wasn't an inanimate object.
Having hashtag fests and cookies and pop soires about bullying is all nice, but it won't stop the innate cruelty kids practice against each other, and in some cases, that done by adults as well. In a culture where all too often there is no genuine regard for the feelings or pain of others, nor the ordinary desire to not inflict such pain, it is little wonder that some of the people produced turn out to be monsters.
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"18 school shootings since Jan. 1st...by the same generation that eats laundry detergent...and you wanna say we have a gun problem." (Randy Shook)
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It's not an absolute right.
Well you are going to have to arm and empower your government to go out and KILL a whole lot of American gun owners who are not going to comply with whatever licensing, registration or ban schemes you dream up. We are going to refuse to comply with your arbitrary dismissal and abolishment of Rights you have determined are 'not absolute'.
Like I told you on the other thread - if you want to pursue this crap - you will have bought yourself a war.
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Well you are going to have to arm and empower your government to go out and KILL a whole lot of American gun owners who are not going to comply with whatever licensing, registration or ban schemes you dream up. We are going to refuse to comply with your arbitrary dismissal and abolishment of Rights you have determined are 'not absolute'.
Like I told you on the other thread - if you want to pursue this crap - you will have bought yourself a war.
Have it your way. *****rollingeyes*****
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Well you are going to have to arm and empower your government to go out and KILL a whole lot of American gun owners who are not going to comply with whatever licensing, registration or ban schemes you dream up. We are going to refuse to comply with your arbitrary dismissal and abolishment of Rights you have determined are 'not absolute'.
There is another issue brewing, which is going to bring gun licensing into greater focus: nationwide licensing reciprocity. I think people in less-gun-friendly states will fight to have a say in the requirements for licensure of visitors to their states. I can easily imagine calls for national licensure standards.
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What laws could we pass that would have stopped this gunman? Even the insurance idea would not have stopped him. What's the point of bringing it up?
How about this : If you have a mental illness designation and you are known to Law Enforcement as a potential threat, you cannot purchase a firearm. If you try, you will be arrested.
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Someone who lies and someone who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands them, although the response of the one is guided by the authority of the truth, while the response of the other defies that authority and refuses to meet its demands.
The bullshitter ignores these demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.
Harry G. Frankfurt, Professor Emeritus, Yale University
(From his book, On Bullshit)
https://brenebrown.com/blog/2017/11/08/gun-reform-speaking-truth-bullshit-practicing-civility-affecting-change/
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There is another issue brewing, which is going to bring gun licensing into greater focus: nationwide licensing reciprocity. I think people in less-gun-friendly states will fight to have a say in the requirements for licensure of visitors to their states. I can easily imagine calls for national licensure standards.
@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm. however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.
We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.
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Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit
https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726
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@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm. however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.
We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.
What's your objection to licensure? If you're law-abiding, mentally competent and (perhaps, by parallel to motor vehicle licensure) pass a test to show knowledge of gun safety, then you can own a gun. It is no great burden for me to renew my driver's license each year.
Don't give me this slippery slope crap that licensure is a prelude to confiscation. That's nonsense, and has nothing to do with the purpose of the natural right undergirding the 2A. The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government. The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself and the social compact it represents.
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There is another issue brewing, which is going to bring gun licensing into greater focus: nationwide licensing reciprocity. I think people in less-gun-friendly states will fight to have a say in the requirements for licensure of visitors to their states. I can easily imagine calls for national licensure standards.
When Rights become licensed, they are no longer rights, but privileges granted by government - which are then rescinded, taxed or abolished at their whim for whatever reason they deem necessary. It may become very costly and time consuming to go through government red tape for you to exercise a 'right'.
Once citizens are required to be licensed by government in order to exercise an inalienable right, they no longer have rights, but permissions granted by the state. If the right to keep and bear arms requires a license, then in a steady incremental march, speech, press and religion will also end up requiring licensing before one is permitted to engage in those things. This is where history and human nature always go.
I guess if this is where those who want to feel safe and secure need to go - we might as well declare the Constitution null, void and abolished and just stop pretending we have liberty in this land.
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What's your objection to licensure? If you're law-abiding, mentally competent and (perhaps, by parallel to motor vehicle licensure) pass a test to show knowledge of gun safety, then you can own a gun. It is no great burden for me to renew my driver's license each year.
Don't give me this slippery slope crap that licensure is a prelude to confiscation. That's nonsense, and has nothing to do with the purpose of the natural right undergirding the 2A. The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government. The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself and the social compact it represents.
@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.
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The natural right is that of self-defense of person and property, not this ridiculous notion that you need to possess an arsenal to overthrow a tyrannical government. The protection against tyranny is the Constitution itself.
You truly are a freaking moron.
As if the Rights of Englishmen prevented the tyranny of King George III and Parliament.
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Once citizens are required to be licensed by government in order to exercise an inalienable right, they no longer have rights, but permissions granted by the state.
The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right. Not the right to own a gun. The manner in which the wording of the first and second amendments are written illustrates the difference. Reasonable, non-discriminatory licensure is Constitutionally permissible.
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@LauraTXNM
I assume you're talking about Concealed Carry permit and not an actual license to have a firearm. however in some places like Mass. you do need to have a permit to possess a firearm never mind carry one concealed.
We need to be careful the gun banners don't morph the concealed carry permit into a license.
Thank you! You explained what I said so poorly! Sorry for my denseness ;).
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@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.
He will tell you all rights, are subject to *reasonable* regulation, licensing and government oversight.
In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.
He believes government should grant privileges, and take those privileges away when he feels they are necessary to be rescinded.
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Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit
https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726
Jewish day schools here have many of the same kind of security measures. Yes, these are private schools, and they spend a LOT of money on these protections. We don't mess around!
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You truly are a freaking moron.
As if the Rights of Englishmen prevented the tyranny of King George III and Parliament.
We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny. We have a Constitution, idiot.
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He will tell you all rights, are subject to *reasonable* regulation, licensing and government oversight.
In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.
He believes government should grant privileges, and take those privileges away when he feels they are necessary to be rescinded.
:shrug:
Here's the thing, does it really matter what you or I or Jazz think? The USSC has pretty much determined that gun control is constitutional.
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The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right. Not the right to own a gun.
Well you empower your tyrannical state to come take them then.
I will be waiting.
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:shrug:
Here's the thing, does it really matter what you or I or Jazz think? The USSC has pretty much determined that gun control is constitutional.
Yeah, while at the same time they also determined abortion and homosexual marriage are inalienable rights that cannot be infringed upon.
If we are subject to the whim of 9 justices in black robes as holy writ - then liberty is truly finished.
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In short, Jazzhead does not believe in rights.
Of course I believe in rights. Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact. The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right. There is no specific "right" to own a gun. That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.
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@Jazzhead
Name another constitutionally protected right that requires a license to exercise.
The First Amendment guarantees our right to speech and assembly. But municipalities can require notifications/licenses to hold a protest on public property, etc.
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Jewish day schools here have many of the same kind of security measures. Yes, these are private schools, and they spend a LOT of money on these protections. We don't mess around!
@LauraTXNM
Our children are the most valuable things we have and we should treat them that way. Raise them to be responsible, feet on the ground people in the world as it is not as we wish it to be!
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Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit[/font
https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726 (https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726)
@Bigun We might want to be a little careful about referencing Israel as an example. Their gun laws are pretty restrictive. Permits are granted to those in existing security positions and the rest are trained to assistant in a terrorist attack.
In Israel, unlike the US, a privilege — but no right — to bear arms
Times of Israel, Dec 17, 2012
Israel, a country that often appears to be inundated with weapons, actually extends very few gun permits to civilians — only 2.5 percent of the population can legally carry a firearm. But those who are licensed to carry a weapon have proved capable of acting swiftly and effectively time and again to neutralize attackers during acts of terrorism.
***
The police conduct a background check and pass the information on to the ministry’s Firearm Licensing Department, which also requires that applicants present a medical form signed by a physician. The form consists of 24 questions, ranging from a patient’s physical health to his or her history of substance abuse and psychiatric care.
“In Israel it is not a right to bear arms, but a privilege,†said Rabani, standing in front of a case of 9mm. handguns.
And in recent years the privilege has been extended to fewer citizens.
Today, Amit said, there are 170,000 Israeli citizens licensed to carry a weapon, a mere 2.5 percent of the population. Of these, 40,000 are security guards who work in supermarkets, malls and schools.
All licensed gun owners undergo mandatory training, which Shpiro said makes citizens more likely to respond in the event of an attack.
More: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-unlike-the-us-a-privilege-but-no-right-to-bear-arms/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-unlike-the-us-a-privilege-but-no-right-to-bear-arms/)
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We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny. We have a Constitution, idiot.
As you have been illustrating, the Constitution is irrelevant to you - because you think inalienable rights are privileges granted by the government that can and should be regulated or abolished when you want to feel safe.
The only tyranny you recognize is bible-believing Christianity.
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Yeah, while at the same time they also determined abortion and homosexual marriage are inalienable rights that cannot be infringed upon.
Abortion is not a "right" in the sense that you use the term, individual self-determination is. Abortion is subject to various sorts of regulations and restrictions. As for homosexual marriage, you simply reveal your ignorance. Same sex marriage implicates the Constitutional requirement of the law's equal protection. Your neighbors' decision to marry under the civil law doesn't affect you or your life in any way whatsoever.
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Of course I believe in rights.... There is no specific "right" to own a gun.
Given some of the other 'rights' you've argued in favor of on this board, coming from you I find this comment amazing.
How your mind must work.
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The First Amendment guarantees our right to speech and assembly. But municipalities can require notifications/licenses to hold a protest on public property, etc.
That is because a large crowd poses a public safety issue.
When the government is empowered to license and regulate your ability to speak your mind, write a blog, put up a Youtube video or speak in public - you have a privilege - not a right.
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@Bigun We might want to be a little careful about referencing Israel as an example. Their gun laws are pretty restrictive. Permits are granted to those in existing security positions and the rest are trained to assistant in a terrorist attack.
Interesting -- I thought the ownership was higher than 2.5%.
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The right to defend one's person and property is the inalienable, natural right. Not the right to own a gun. The manner in which the wording of the first and second amendments are written illustrates the difference. Reasonable, non-discriminatory licensure is Constitutionally permissible.
@Jazzhead
Yet that right of self-defense is also under attack. CA, Chicago, NY, and Mass all restrict self defense to some degree.
Australia and England just outright made self defense illegal.
A piece of paper can only restrain tyranny when there is the rule of law. As we've seen from the FBI, NSA, DOJ, ATF, CIA and Congress the rule of law is no longer respected.
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That is because a large crowd poses a public safety issue.
When the government is empowered to license and regulate your ability to speak your mind, write a blog, put up a Youtube video or speak in public - you have a privilege - not a right.
I guess I see it a bit differently. Yelling, "Fire!" In a crowded theater should not be protected speech.
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If we are subject to the whim of 9 justices in black robes as holy writ - then liberty is truly finished.
But we are, aren't we?
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Given some of the other 'rights' you've argued in favor of on this board, coming from you I find this comment amazing.
How your mind must work.
@skeeter
In his world you have a right to: (despite not being in the Constitution)
1. kill unborn babies
2. marry the same sex
3. enter the country illegally
4. confiscate peoples property
BUT you don't have a right to bear arms, despite it being in the Constitution.
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Abortion is not a right, individual self-determination is. Abortion is subject to various sorts of regulations and restrictions. As for homosexual marriage, you simply reveal your ignorance. Same sex marriage implicates the Constitutional requirement of the law's equal protection. Your neighbors' decision to marry under the civil law doesn't affect you or your life in any way whatsoever.
Jazzhead, I agree with you here on the substance.
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@Bigun We might want to be a little careful about referencing Israel as an example. Their gun laws are pretty restrictive. Permits are granted to those in existing security positions and the rest are trained to assistant in a terrorist attack.
P.S. Yes, our Bill of Rights makes us unique. It also requires us to find especially AMERICAN solutions to our problems. I don't think any other country has the answer -- but they might have some helpful ideas.
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I guess I see it a bit differently. Yelling, "Fire!" In a crowded theater should not be protected speech.
Well then let us license and regulate all speech of every kind - especially political speech, because the precedent is we cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
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We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny. We have a Constitution, idiot.
But we DO have some special rights guaranteed by our BoR that would help us in that instance.
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@skeeter
In his world you have a right to: (despite not being in the Constitution)
1. kill unborn babies
2. marry the same sex
3. enter the country illegally
4. confiscate peoples property
BUT you don't have a right to bear arms, despite it being in the Constitution.
5. force people to violate the tenants of their faith, provided they're Christians.
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Abortion is not a right, individual self-determination is. Abortion is subject to various sorts of regulations and restrictions. As for homosexual marriage, you simply reveal your ignorance. Same sex marriage implicates the Constitutional requirement of the law's equal protection. Your neighbors' decision to marry under the civil law doesn't affect you or your life in any way whatsoever.
@Jazzhead
Can you say disingenuous?
Where is self-determination listed in the Constitution? What about the babies rights?
As for the marriage issue. Any man could marry any woman. Any woman could marry any man. Thats equality baby.
What my neighbor does impacts me, the community, the county, the state and the country.
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5. force people to violate the tenants of their faith, provided they're Christians.
Howd I miss that one? thanks!
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Well then let us license and regulate all speech of every kind - especially political speech, because the precedent is we cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
Do you think the Skokie Nazis had the right to march?
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@Jazzhead
What my neighbor does impacts me, the community, the county, the state and the country.
Definitely. But where do we draw the line against someone impinging (sp?) on our interests?
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@Jazzhead
Yet that right of self-defense is also under attack. CA, Chicago, NY, and Mass all restrict self defense to some degree.
I'm not sure specifically what laws you're referring to, but if they effectively prevent a law-abiding citizen from defending his home and property, then I join you in seeking to declare such laws unconstitutional. The Heller decision involved just such a law, that effectively prohibited an individual from lawfully having a handgun in the home.
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@skeeter
In his world you have a right to: (despite not being in the Constitution)
1. kill unborn babies
2. marry the same sex
3. enter the country illegally
4. confiscate peoples property
BUT you don't have a right to bear arms, despite it being in the Constitution.
That's, of course, not what I'm saying at all. But I hesitate to lead this discussion off-topic by debating same sex marriage and abortion.
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P.S. Yes, our Bill of Rights makes us unique. It also requires us to find especially AMERICAN solutions to our problems. I don't think any other country has the answer -- but they might have some helpful ideas.
You miss my point @LauraTXNM .... Highlighting the gun policy in Israel can easily be turned against gun ownership in the US.
Private gun ownership in Israel, if allowed, is used as an arm of the police and the IDF with mandatory training for rapid response in a terror attack. It is a privilege with responsibility to the state, not a right.
Opening this can of worms may not be helpful.
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Definitely. But where do we draw the line against someone impinging (sp?) on our interests?
@LauraTXNM
Well one place might be to look at the last 200 years of what was considered socially acceptable throughout this country.
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Interesting -- I thought the ownership was higher than 2.5%.
@LauraTXNM @Right_in_Virginia
IMHO all that means is that we have a huge advantage over them that we are refusing to put to use!
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What my neighbor does impacts me, the community, the county, the state and the country.
So what? What you do impacts your neighbor, in the same sense. But your neighbor isn't causing you any HARM simply because you disapprove of his or her lifestyle.
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@LauraTXNM @Right_in_Virginia
IMHO all that means is that we have a huge advantage over them that we are refusing to put to use!
I think the argument for arming security in schools can be made--and better made-- without the Israel reference @Bigun
Why invite putting Israel's private gun laws under a microscope? :shrug:
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Private gun ownership in Israel, if allowed, is used as an arm of the police and the IDF with mandatory training for rapid response in a terror attack. It is a privilege with responsibility to the state, not a right.
Opening this can of worms may not be helpful.
You could say the same thing about the Second Amendment, you know. Remember the predicate clause about the "well-regulated militia".
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That's, of course, not what I'm saying at all. But I hesitate to lead this discussion off-topic by debating same sex marriage and abortion.
@Jazzhead
Its absolutely what you are saying. Of course you're using more gentle language but we've all seen what happens. We all know what the goal of the gun control advocates really is, because they've told us. The only acceptable solution for them is a total ban on civilian ownership. Every other 'reasonable' law is just one more stop down that slippery slope.
For folks like you increased laws on law abiding citizens is your only solution. You refuse to look at the real causes of violence.
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@LauraTXNM @Right_in_Virginia
IMHO all that means is that we have a huge advantage over them that we are refusing to put to use!
Agreed ;). I tangentially mentioned Israel a while ago, because I admire their system of universal service and therefore gun destigmatization and familiarity.
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You could say the same thing about the Second Amendment, you know. Remember the predicate clause about the "well-regulated militia".
@Jazzhead
Now you know better then that.
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I think the argument for arming security in schools can be made--and better made-- without the Israel reference @Bigun
Why invite putting Israel's private gun laws under a microscope? :shrug:
@Right_in_Virginia
I'm not inviting any such thing! I'm just pointing out that their approach to the problem is the correct way to deal with this kind of thing.
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@Jazzhead
Its absolutely what you are saying. Of course you're using more gentle language but we've all seen what happens. We all know what the goal of the gun control advocates really is, because they've told us. The only acceptable solution for them is a total ban on civilian ownership. Every other 'reasonable' law is just one more stop down that slippery slope.
For folks like you increased laws on law abiding citizens is your only solution. You refuse to look at the real causes of violence.
I won't engage you on slippery slope arguments. They are bogus and intellectually weak.
Of course we need to focus on the real causes of gun violence, same as we need to focus on the real causes of motor vehicle accidents. But that has nothing to do with the social benefits of licensure, registration and insurance.
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@Jazzhead
Now you know better then that.
I do - I accept Heller's conclusion that the right to self defense is an individual, natural right. But the predicate clause of the 2A is not inconsistent with a regime such as what we find today in Israel.
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Laura - please accept my warm welcome to this little group of ours.
30% of US households own guns, and I'll bet the vast majority of them understand the need for reasonable regulation of the devices.
We already have reasonable regulation of guns.
What we lack is law enforcement focused on problem people. By that I mean adequate laws, which demand officers protect custody for certain types of people.
This guy should have been found last September, not just brushed off by the FBI. They gave up their search too easily, and 17 people are now dead.
What good are slogans "if you see something, say something"
....If authorities drop the ball?
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Do you think the Skokie Nazis had the right to march?
Yup. Political speech. They had that right, and they went through the hassle of getting permits.
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@Right_in_Virginia
I'm not inviting any such thing! I'm just pointing out that their approach to the problem is the correct way to deal with this kind of thing.
888high58888 @Bigun
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We already have reasonable regulation of guns.
What we lack is law enforcement focused on problem people. By that I mean adequate laws, which demand officers protect custody for certain types of people.
This guy should have been found last September, not just brushed off by the FBI. They gave up their search too easily, and 17 people are now dead.
What good are slogans "if you see something, say something"
....If authorities drop the ball?
Agree. Not only the FBI, but local police and school officials dropped the ball. This kid should have been sent for an involuntary 48 hour stay for observation at a local psych hospital.
And this should have happened concurrent with the damn blast email warning teachers about this kid and his backpack. 9999hair out0000
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We already have reasonable regulation of guns.
What we lack is law enforcement focused on problem people. By that I mean adequate laws, which demand officers protect custody for certain types of people.
This guy should have been found last September, not just brushed off by the FBI. They gave up their search too easily, and 17 people are now dead.
What good are slogans "if you see something, say something"
....If authorities drop the ball?
Apparently, neighbors repeatedly called the local cops but not the FBI ;(. The FBI received one call, about the "school shooter" blog comment.
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Yup. Political speech. They had that right, and they went through the hassle of getting permits.
Ok, so we agree on that. I also think political speech that calls for violence, like advocating the President's assassination, is political speech that can and should be regulated. Does that seem reasonable?
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Agree. Not only the FBI, but local police and school officials dropped the ball. This kid should have been sent for an involuntary 48 hour stay for observation at a local psych hospital.
And this should have happened concurrent with the damn blast email warning teachers about this kid and his backpack. 9999hair out0000
@Right_in_Virginia
As it turns out the guy threatened to do this in a youtube video and the FBI was alerted to that video and did nothing at all it seems.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316)
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888high58888 @Bigun
Agreed -- the Israelis do school security well, with locked down armed access points. Jewish day schools spend a lot of money to accomplish a similar thing. I've been to education conferences where they checked everyone's names against an attendee list and checked under my car with mirrors.
P.S. Of course, we may be at a point where we need to make all this routine for all public buildings. Maybe it should be part of the infrastructure plan. /sarc
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We already have reasonable regulation of guns.
What we lack is law enforcement focused on problem people. By that I mean adequate laws, which demand officers protect custody for certain types of people.
This guy should have been found last September, not just brushed off by the FBI. They gave up their search too easily, and 17 people are now dead.
What good are slogans "if you see something, say something"
....If authorities drop the ball?
Good post. LEO missed another opportunity to prevent a tragic mass casualty event just like in the Boston marathon bombing case.
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@Right_in_Virginia
As it turns out the guy threatened to do this in a youtube video and the FBI was alerted to that video and did nothing at all it seems.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWJ49vYVQAEYXXD.jpg)
@Bigun
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Ok, so we agree on that. I also think political speech that calls for violence, like advocating the President's assassination, is political speech that can and should be regulated. Does that seem reasonable?
How do you "regulate" and determine that? Do people that want to call for violence need to send their speech in advance to government regulators to get approval first before they threaten someone's life?
Threats are threats and deserve investigation to determine if they are indeed legitimate concerns and actionable.
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@Right_in_Virginia
As it turns out the guy threatened to do this in a youtube video and the FBI was alerted to that video and did nothing at all it seems.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316)
Well the FBI was too busy working 24/7 to exonerate Clinton and frame Trump for what the Democrats were doing.
They didn't have time to investigate a nut job making threats in person and on Youtube to do what he actually ended up doing.
Besides, what is MORE IMPORTANT - is the agenda to ban guns and turn the Second Amendment into a licensed privilege and not a Right.
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How do you "regulate" and determine that? Do people that want to call for violence need to send their speech in advance to government regulators to get approval first before they threaten someone's life?
Threats are threats and deserve investigation to determine if they are indeed legitimate concerns and actionable.
^^^That's what I mean -- investigating threats. Should happen when people call for assassinating the President. It should have happened with this shooter, too ;(.
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@Right_in_Virginia
As it turns out the guy threatened to do this in a youtube video and the FBI was alerted to that video and did nothing at all it seems.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-shooting-fbi-was-alerted-about-threat-posted-youtube-n848316)
Actually, according to the article and the other media I've seen, the shooter posted a COMMENT on the video. I'm not sure if they can track down a poster's ISP from a YouTube comment; I'm guessing that would have been necessary.
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Threats are threats and deserve investigation to determine if they are indeed legitimate concerns and actionable.
Such as the threats of violence and war you routinely dispense on this Board?
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Such as the threats of violence and war you routinely dispense on this Board?
Go call your friends at the FBI and report me as you promised you were going to do once before on this board.
Go ahead. Do it.
Tyrants should always be afraid of attempting to impose their tyranny on a free people.
I'm glad you are afraid.
But go ahead and call your friends at the FBI if you think that makes you feel safe.
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For what it's worth, the New York Post, one of the most prominent conservative editorial pages in America, called today on the President and Congress to do the following:
- Reinstate portions of the federal assault weapons ban
- Raise the age to buy firearms to 21
- Ban gun sales to "fugitives from justice"
- Target bump stocks, and
- Kill the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act
This is further evidence that Oceander's right - the point may well have come where the absolutist position on the Second Amendment is no longer politically tenable for conservatives and the Republican party. We may be better off being part of the solution rather than ceding the field (and the GOP's future viability) to the worst impulses of the Democratic party.
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For what it's worth, the New York Post, one of the most prominent conservative editorial pages in America, called today on the President and Congress to do the following:
- Reinstate portions of the federal assault weapons ban
- Raise the age to buy firearms to 21
- Ban gun sales to "fugitives from justice"
- Target bump stocks, and
- Kill the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act
This is further evidence that Oceander's right - the point may well have come where the absolutist position on the Second Amendment is no longer politically tenable for conservatives and the Republican party. We may be better off being part of the solution rather than ceding the field (and the GOP's future viability) to the worst impulses of the Democratic party.
The NY Post, conservative. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
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Go call your friends at the FBI and report me as you promised you were going to do once before on this board.
Go ahead. Do it.
Tyrants should always be afraid of attempting to impose their tyranny on a free people.
I'm glad you are afraid.
But go ahead and call your friends at the FBI if you think that makes you feel safe.
Stop yanking your damn crank. Again, do you consider your own threats of violence and war that you routinely dispense on this board to be encompassed within the following?:
Threats are threats and deserve investigation to determine if they are indeed legitimate concerns and actionable.
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Such as the threats of violence and war you routinely dispense on this Board?
@Jazzhead
There are criteria for threats. They need to be specific and of such that it would put a reasonable person in fear.
For example "Jazz I know where you live and I'm going to burn your house down" or " I'm going to shoot up xxx school" would be actionable.
Whereas a general "I'm gonna kill all those bastards" or "they should all hang" or even "you should die" are not actionable. @INVAR tends to the general kinda threat most of the time that Ive seen. He's an equal opportunity threatener.
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This is further evidence that Oceander's right - the point may well have come where the absolutist position on the Second Amendment is no longer politically tenable for conservatives and the Republican party. We may be better off being part of the solution rather than ceding the field (and the GOP's future viability) to the worst impulses of the Democratic party.
You are the living embodiment of the worst impulses of pretend Conservative thought.
You go ahead and surrender your rights in advance if it makes you feel safer about yourself.
We have no intention of complying with any infringements congress, the courts or people like you want to impose on our inalienable right to keep and bear arms.
We have them precisely for the purpose of keeping people like you from doing what you intend to do.
Stop yanking your damn crank. Again, do you consider your own threats of violence and war that you routinely dispense on this board to be encompassed within the following?:
Tyrants should always fear the PROMISE of violence and war should they do what you advocate.
Always.
But you go ahead and squeal to your pals at the FBI if you want to feel safe from the words I post to this board that you find so threatening to your safe space.
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@INVAR tends to the general kinda threat most of the time that Ive seen. He's an equal opportunity threatener.
Just to wannabe tyrants and their advocates.
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@Jazzhead
There are criteria for threats. They need to be specific and of such that it would put a reasonable person in fear.
For example "Jazz I know where you live and I'm going to burn your house down" or " I'm going to shoot up xxx school" would be actionable.
Whereas a general "I'm gonna kill all those bastards" or "they should all hang" or even "you should die" are not actionable. @INVAR tends to the general kinda threat most of the time that Ive seen. He's an equal opportunity threatener.
You’re right, but people should be aware of what they say about whom and where. Nutbag Hal Turner was tried and convicted for saying the following about 3 federal judges....
Let me be the first to say this plainly: These judges deserve to be killed. Their blood will replenish the tree of liberty. A small price to pay to assure freedom for millions.
He was sentenced to 33 months and served 22 in jail.
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@Jazzhead
There are criteria for threats. They need to be specific and of such that it would put a reasonable person in fear.
For example "Jazz I know where you live and I'm going to burn your house down" or " I'm going to shoot up xxx school" would be actionable.
Whereas a general "I'm gonna kill all those bastards" or "they should all hang" or even "you should die" are not actionable. @INVAR tends to the general kinda threat most of the time that Ive seen. He's an equal opportunity threatener.
The shooter's statement on social media was "I'm going to be a professional school shooter". With regard to "specificity', that strikes me as on a par with INVAR's "promises" of violence and war that he vomits concerning his disagreements with posters here.
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The shooter's statement on social media was "I'm going to be a professional school shooter". With regard to "specificity', that strikes me as on a par with INVAR's "promises" of violence and war that he vomits concerning his disagreements with posters here.
Did you report me to the FBI yet as you promised?
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Quite a bit more than just a social media statement the nut job wanted to be a 'professional school shooter'.
FBI failed to act on tip last month that Cruz might carry out school shooting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-failed-to-act-on-tip-last-month-that-cruz-might-carry-out-school-shooting/2018/02/16/a95e08be-133e-11e8-9065-e55346f6de81_story.html?utm_term=.7595e97b05e2)
The FBI in January received a tip to a public reporting line that Nikolas Cruz might carry out a school shooting, but failed to pass the information to its Miami field office or investigate any further, authorities said Friday.
The bureau acknowledged the startling lapse in a statement, saying a person close to Cruz had contacted the bureau’s public access tip line on January 5 and “provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.†On Wednesday, Cruz killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.
The bureau said the information “should have been assessed as a potential threat to life†and passed to the Miami field office, but was not, and “no further investigation was conducted at that time.â€
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Perhaps if the FBI had acted on the various tips, they could have brought in local LE and even a mental health professional and had a long sitdown with this kid. He would have realized he's on their radar and couldn't get away with anything, and perhaps they could have directed him to someone who could work with him on whatever made him so angry.
Hindsight, 20/20, and all that. **nononono*
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How is a teenager allowed to purchase a gun??
LOLWhut?
I have owned firearms since I was maybe eight.
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LOLWhut?
I have owned firearms since I was maybe eight.
So as an eight year old child, did you ever walk into a gun store accompanied by a parent and allowed to break open your piggy bank and allowed to purchase an AR15 and ammo? 22222frying pan
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In FL there is no waiting period to buy a rifle/AR15. Only a handgun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- this seems really stupid.
@LauraTXNM
So what?
You can buy anything you want off the back of a truck, anywhere in the country.
I think maybe two of my guns (ever) has been bought over a counter.
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A teenager in FL can't buy a handgun. Only a rifle/AR15. Which is ridiculous to me.
So you haven't heard of hunting?
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Have it your way. *****rollingeyes*****
Actually, "Our way" is that people, no matter how "good" their intentions may be otherwise, just leave our Rights alone. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
It's that simple, really. Keep your grubby totalitarian meathooks off our Rights.
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@LauraTXNM
So what?
You can buy anything you want off the back of a truck, anywhere in the country.
Seems to me that's a loophole that ought to be closed, pronto.
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I largely agree with you. But I can understand buying a shotgun or rifle for hunting at 18. An AR15 seems like overkill, no pun intended.
An AR15 is no different from any semi-automatic hunting rifle.
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There is usually a waiting period because of the background check. Sometimes it takes days.
Hell, by that time, I was over being mad at the person.
Besides, a waiting period would not have helped in this case.
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So you haven't heard of hunting?
I guess they don't get it. I had brought down innumerable ducks and bagged a lot of small game by the time I harvested my first Whitetail Deer--at the ripe old age of 11. I was hunting at half the age people are saying is too young to own a gun--yep, out in the woods, alone, armed and dangerous (to the squirrel population) at the ripe old age of 9.
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An AR15 is no different from any semi-automatic hunting rifle.
Except that it’s cosmetically scary looking. Which is enough to send liberals running to their shrink for some psychotropic drugs.
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Straw man. No one disagrees with that. Your job no doubt also requires that you drive a car. But why shouldn't you be required to register and insure your gun just as you do your car?
Idiocy. I will never register my gear, and for the most part, no one knows what I have. How EXACTLY do you intend to force me to disclose?
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An AR15 is no different from any semi-automatic hunting rifle.
Exactly. Some politician was railing earlier today that he's a hunter, but no hunter ever would use an AR-15 and there's no legitimate need for them. I know very little about hunting guns, but asked myself, "Why not? Isn't it just another semi-auto rifle?"
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Ok, so we agree on that. I also think political speech that calls for violence, like advocating the President's assassination, is political speech that can and should be regulated. Does that seem reasonable?
That is a "Terrorist Threat," and is a felony.
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So as an eight year old child, did you ever walk into a gun store accompanied by a parent and allowed to break open your piggy bank and allowed to purchase an AR15 and ammo? 22222frying pan
No. at eight or so, I had a .22 rifle. by 12 I had a .22 pistol, because I know I was trapping by then, and the pistol is necessary for dispatch. I knocked down my first deer sometime around 12, and it may well have been my own carbine by then. My first elk was somewhere around 15 and that was a scoped 7mm mag, and the shot was half a mile.
Y'all live in lala land. My story ain't very much different from folks all over the midwest, south, southwest, and rockies.
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Seems to me that's a loophole that ought to be closed, pronto.
Riiiight. How in hell do you do that?
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I guess they don't get it. I had brought down innumerable ducks and bagged a lot of small game by the time I harvested my first Whitetail Deer--at the ripe old age of 11. I was hunting at half the age people are saying is too young to own a gun--yep, out in the woods, alone, armed and dangerous (to the squirrel population) at the ripe old age of 9.
Damn straight. I just got done saying something similar.
And I was driving by 8 or 10 too... and licensed at 14.
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Except that it’s cosmetically scary looking. Which is enough to send liberals running to their shrink for some psychotropic drugs.
BOO!
:beer:
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No. at eight or so, I had a .22 rifle. by 12 I had a .22 pistol, because I know I was trapping by then, and the pistol is necessary for dispatch. I knocked down my first deer sometime around 12, and it may well have been my own carbine by then. My first elk was somewhere around 15 and that was a scoped 7mm mag, and the shot was half a mile.
Y'all live in lala land. My story ain't very much different from folks all over the midwest, south, southwest, and rockies.
But it was a parent who presumably purchased those for you? You obviously didn't walk into a gun store at 8 years old alone and purchase firearms and ammo. Or did you?
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Exactly. Some politician was railing earlier today that he's a hunter, but no hunter ever would use an AR-15 and there's no legitimate need for them. I know very little about hunting guns, but asked myself, "Why not? Isn't it just another semi-auto rifle?"
AR-15 and it's knockoffs and look-alikes are used for hunting all the time.
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Riiiight. How in hell do you do that?
Gestapo on every corner surveilling every thing you say, do or think.
Believe the wrong thing, say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, why - it's the gulag and punishment for you.
That is the kind of world Jazzy works to impose upon us all.
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But it was a parent who presumably purchased those for you? You obviously didn't walk into a gun store at 8 years old alone and purchase firearms and ammo. Or did you?
Ammo yeah. But I very rarely buy guns through a store at all. Even today.
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But it was a parent who presumably purchased those for you? You obviously didn't walk into a gun store at 8 years old alone and purchase firearms and ammo. Or did you?
I should add, YES my dad bought me my first rifle, a .22LR . The rest I bought on my own, though I think he probably financed a couple of them. And yeah, he knew what I had... mostly. I can't say that is perfectly true, because by the time I was capable (say 15 or so) I probably bought and sold on my own.
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Gestapo on every corner surveilling every thing you say, do or think.
Believe the wrong thing, say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, why - it's the gulag and punishment for you.
That is the kind of world Jazzy works to impose upon us all.
Should oughta take a lesson by now.
Rednecks and Revenuers don't mix.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk#)
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Exactly. Some politician was railing earlier today that he's a hunter, but no hunter ever would use an AR-15 and there's no legitimate need for them. I know very little about hunting guns, but asked myself, "Why not? Isn't it just another semi-auto rifle?"
They make a good varmint rifle, but the ordinary .223/5.56 AR fires too small a bullet for deer in many jurisdictions. They are also good for small game and furbearers, but us old school guys will just use a .22.
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My daughter at 16 bagged a 175 lb doe at 160 yards on one knee with her mini-14.
No exit wound - bullet in the heart. That was an amazing afternoon providing a freezer full that lasted for dang near a year.
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My daughter at 16 bagged a 175 lb doe at 160 yards on one knee with her mini-14.
No exit wound - bullet in the heart. That was an amazing afternoon providing a freezer full that lasted for dang near a year.
I didn't get to teach my kids. Too bunged up at the time. Never been hunting with either of my boys. It grieves me. But I intend to fix it with em pretty soon... and with the grandkids.
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My daughter at 16 bagged a 175 lb doe at 160 yards on one knee with her mini-14.
No exit wound - bullet in the heart. That was an amazing afternoon providing a freezer full that lasted for dang near a year.
Good for her!
I'm not saying the round isn't capable of bringing down a deer--obviously, it is, but some jurisdictions still have a proscription on hunting deer with a bullet smaller than .25 caliber. :shrug:
Heck, a .22LR will bring down a whitetail if you place the shot. (Don't ask how I know). :whistle:
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Idiocy. I will never register my gear, and for the most part, no one knows what I have. How EXACTLY do you intend to force me to disclose?
@roamer_1
By violating the Second Amendment with the help of activist judges.
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I didn't get to teach my kids. Too bunged up at the time. Never been hunting with either of my boys. It grieves me. But I intend to fix it with em pretty soon... and with the grandkids.
My grandfather got me a really nice Savage break open 20ga for my 8th birthday...thought grandma was gonna 22222frying pan him for getting it for me LOL!
My dad was always too busy never taught me to shoot it.
I've made sure I didn't make that mistake with my son. Ive been having a blast (no pun intended) teaching him how to shoot his 10/22 and the M&P Shield .40 I got him for Christmas.
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Idiocy. I will never register my gear, and for the most part, no one knows what I have. How EXACTLY do you intend to force me to disclose?
It is your choice whether to knowingly violate the law, and to subject yourself to the potential consequences thereof. To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk. I play by the rules.
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The NY Post, conservative. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
That was my first thought too! **nononono*
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@roamer_1
By violating the Second Amendment with the help of activist judges.
@txradioguy
But how is it that I would be forced to disclose? I guess they can target ammo, but hell, I have enough right now for my lifetime, and probably my sons. And push comes to shove, so long as I can get the fixins, I'll just roll my own.
Same with the guns... Magical thinking requires a sale point.
But give me a garage with a fly cutter and a tooling lathe, and guess what?
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It is your choice whether to knowingly violate the law, and to subject yourself to the potential consequences thereof. To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk. I play by the rules.
Tyranny and tyrants always enjoy having willing sheep like you to help them implement their particular flavor of despotism.
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@txradioguy
But how is it that I would be forced to disclose? I guess they can target ammo, but hell, I have enough right now for my lifetime, and probably my sons. And push comes to shove, so long as I can get the fixins, I'll just roll my own.
Same with the guns... Magical thinking requires a sale point.
But give me a garage with a fly cutter and a tooling lathe, and guess what?
I would guess with this registration and insurance crap that our resident Liberal gun grabber keeps advocating as "common sense".
And unless you're off the grid in the middle of nowhere...you can always count on one jazzy type next door neighbor to rat you out to the local officials if you try to hide anything.
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I've made sure I didn't make that mistake with my son. Ive been having a blast (no pun intended) teaching him how to shoot his 10/22 and the M&P Shield .40 I got him for Christmas.
More power to you!
It sucks that was taken from me. Not that I didn't teach em plenty, but it was all how-to from a wheelchair.
Not the same.
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Perhaps if the FBI had acted on the various tips, they could have brought in local LE and even a mental health professional and had a long sitdown with this kid. He would have realized he's on their radar and couldn't get away with anything, and perhaps they could have directed him to someone who could work with him on whatever made him so angry.
Hindsight, 20/20, and all that. **nononono*
Ya think? Why do so many get graduate degrees in psychiatry, psychology, education, law enforcement etc. IF THEY AREN'T GOING TO ACTUALLY CLOSE THE DAMN CIRCLES AND DO SOMETHING ??
I am not even a lawyer, yet I know the name for his threats online, is "terrorist threat," and is a felony.
It turns out the only good guy, is the fellow with the YouTube video channel, that DID SOMETHING.
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More power to you!
It sucks that was taken from me. Not that I didn't teach em plenty, but it was all how-to from a wheelchair.
Not the same.
But it sounds like you'll get a chance to make up for it with your grandkids.
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It is your choice whether to knowingly violate the law, and to subject yourself to the potential consequences thereof. To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk. I play by the rules.
Laws that violate my rights and prevent my livelihood. are no law at all
You just go ahead and send your revenuer up in the holler. See how that works out.
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Tyranny and tyrants always enjoy having willing sheep like you to help them implement their particular flavor of despotism.
We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
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Laws that violate my rights and prevent my livelihood. are no law at all
You just go ahead and send your revenuer up in the holler. See how that works out.
Yeah, shoot 'em dead, you damn fool.
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I would guess with this registration and insurance crap that our resident Liberal gun grabber keeps advocating as "common sense".
And unless you're off the grid in the middle of nowhere...you can always count on one jazzy type next door neighbor to rat you out to the local officials if you try to hide anything.
Right. because all that works so dang well keeping the guns away from the bangers.
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And unless you're off the grid in the middle of nowhere...you can always count on one jazzy type next door neighbor to rat you out to the local officials if you try to hide anything.
Yeah, to hell with the rule of law. Happiness is a warm gun, so go live in your bunker. You'll be happier there, and so will the rest of us.
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We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
THE HELL we ain't.
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
Check your panties.
There ain't a gun crisis. If that were true, why ain't it HERE, where there are more guns per square inch than anywhere on the planet? EVERYBODY here is armed, and most, at least 10 times over.
Your problems are with hearts and minds, and the liberal bullshit that is spewed daily in the cities.
Y9ur problem is the crybaby crap you are teaching your kids.
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We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
Willful blindness on your part about what you are cheering for doesn't make it less so.
You're the only one here that seems in denial about what registering guns leads to. And you're severely deficient in your history of the world as well on this point.
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
So you want to do the equivalent of stopping DUI by taking away the keys from sober drivers.
You want to punish lawful gun owners and concealed carriers for the misdeeds of less than 1% of the legal gun owners in the country.
The "crisis of gun violence" you have your panties in a twist about isn't from legal gun owners...it's criminals...drug dealers...gang bangers using illegal guns...guns stolen during a burglary...smuggled in from other countries that is the problem.
The people causing the real problem with the "crisis of gun violence" won't adhere to any gun laws you can dream up for your Liberal gun grabbing buddies to pass. They never have and they never will. They won't care about age restrictions...they won't care about waiting periods...and they won't give a rats ass about some "assault weapons" ban.
What you want to do to legal gun owners is make us sitting ducks for people who don't care about laws...and you'll sit there and scratch your head and navel gaze as to why with all the new restrictions deaths by guns is still increasing.
We have 20,000 gun laws on the books in this country...tell me what one more is going to do that the others haven't?
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Yeah, to hell with the rule of law.
Well you've already proven rule of law via the Constitution doesn't matter to you.
Happiness is a warm gun, so go live in your bunker. You'll be happier there, and so will the rest of us.
Happiness is being in public next to a snowflake gun grabber like you...with my Sig Sauer P320 tucked into a holster on my hip and you never know I'm carrying.
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Yeah, shoot 'em dead, you damn fool.
Ain't like that's unusual. You mess with folks livelihood, they ain't gonna let you.
The feds can't even touch the moonshine trade, nor the marijuana. Heck, not even truckloads of wetbacks. How the hell do you think guns are any different?
All you propose to do is make criminals out of good people.
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Yeah, to hell with the rule of law. Happiness is a warm gun, so go live in your bunker. You'll be happier there, and so will the rest of us.
@Jazzhead
Funny how your opinion of respect for the law changes depending on what the law being discussed is.
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Yeah, to hell with the rule of law. Happiness is a warm gun, so go live in your bunker. You'll be happier there, and so will the rest of us.
You propose tyranny under the color of law. That is a different thing.
And I don't need no bunker, ya twit, Montana won't enforce this bullcrap, and even if they do, the Sheriff won't. Like I said. Send your revenuers. See what happens.
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You propose tyranny under the color of law. That is a different thing.
And I don't need no bunker, ya twit, Montana won't enforce this bullcrap, and even if they do, the Sheriff won't. Like I said. Send your revenuers. See what happens.
There are several states where I can forsee law enforcement and even the Governor refusing to enforce such silly laws.
Kentucky where I'm at now and Texas being two of them.
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The "crisis of gun violence" you have your panties in a twist about isn't from legal gun owners...it's criminals...drug dealers...gang bangers using illegal guns...guns stolen during a burglary...smuggled in from other countries that is the problem.
Give me 500 bucks and put me anywhere you like in these fair states, Canada, or Mexico, and I will have a gun in my hand in two days.
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Give me 500 bucks and put me anywhere you like in these fair states, Canada, or Mexico, and I will have a gun in my hand in two days.
@roamer_1
What are you gonna sleep for the first day and a half?
2-3 hours tops to have a gun and whatever drug you want.
Hell my son is an EMT and they are telling them that sex trafficking is so bad that kids disappear within 8 hours. So you can also have whatever kinda company you want for that first day and a half. All it takes is money.
They can't stop that so how are they gonna stop anything else?
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There are several states where I can forsee law enforcement and even the Governor refusing to enforce such silly laws.
Kentucky where I'm at now and Texas being two of them.
Yep. Probably much of the south and the west, and the desert southwest.
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Yep. Probably much of the south and the west, and the desert southwest.
If you want a good idea who would comply with the liberal stupidity of gun registration and who wouldn't...just pull up a reciprocity map.
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Yeah, shoot 'em dead, you damn fool.
That is exactly what will happen to agents working to impose your brand of tyranny.
It is the very reason we have the Second Amendment as an inalienable Right to begin with.
Go ahead and test that promise. Your organs of wannabe tyranny will very quickly suffer a shortage of agents willing to carry it out, notwithstanding all your despotic thirst for a giant safe space, your cursed government tyranny machine will grind to a halt.
Yeah, to hell with the rule of law.
Tyranny under the color of law is no law we will obey.
You will have bought yourself a war - as I told you before.
Happiness is a warm gun, so go live in your bunker. You'll be happier there, and so will the rest of us.
You are a liar.
There is one thing absolutely certain about liberals and Leftists like yourself; you are never content to leave anyone alone - even if they are in a bunker in the mountains. People like you will empower agents of the state to eliminate such people or bring them to heel, because the very idea and notion of people being left alone is abhorrent to you and yours.
All you propose to do is make criminals out of good people.
That is the idea.
When everyone is a criminal in the eyes of the Statists like Jazzy - then rounding people up and getting rid of undesirables will be as easy as pie... or so they think.
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@roamer_1
What are you gonna sleep for the first day and a half?
@driftdiver
LOL! That's right... I figured to need a little time to get the lay of things is all.
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If you want a good idea who would comply with the liberal stupidity of gun registration and who wouldn't...just pull up a reciprocity map.
That's right. Most are at least 'shall issue'... Other than the liberal bastions of course.
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We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
WHen the citizens quit demanding that their living rooms, games, and music quit being saturated with violence, maybe we can talk. The problem is the culture, not of guns, but of violence. If that scares people, well, they can quit patronizing it and arm up to defend themselves against. Until we return to a society where killing people for no reason is simply unthinkable, the problem will continue, regardless of the tools used to perpetrate it. Or are you going to ban tire irons and rebar, kitchen knives, fists and feet, too?
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Go ahead and test that promise. Your organs of wannabe tyranny will very quickly suffer a shortage of agents willing to carry it out, notwithstanding all your despotic thirst for a giant safe space, your cursed government tyranny machine will grind to a halt.
@INVAR
A nice turn of phrase, that one...
:beer: :patriot:
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If you want a good idea who would comply with the liberal stupidity of gun registration and who wouldn't...just pull up a reciprocity map.
Yep. There are a few 'drive around' and no-go states on there. Sadly, the one I was heading to was one of them last time I drove cross-country.
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Or are you going to ban tire irons and rebar, kitchen knives, fists and feet, too?
At the end of the day those things you mentioned classify as "assault weapons" in the wrong hands.
It's only the misguided types that think the only "assault weapon" every produced was the Armalite Rifle Model 15.
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@INVAR
A nice turn of phrase, that one...
Thanks. It was written for the benefit of those who know and understand the reference.
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But it sounds like you'll get a chance to make up for it with your grandkids.
That's right - Good Lord willin', I'll get it done. I'm a redneck boy - I've been getting back up all my life. This is no different.
:beer:
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At the end of the day those things you mentioned classify as "assault weapons" in the wrong hands.
It's only the misguided types that think the only "assault weapon" every produced was the Armalite Rifle Model 15.
The Stg-44 is generally credited as being the first true assault rifle. I suppose, if you wanted to go on volume of fire, perhaps the Girandoni or an earlier model would be the pioneer.
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WHen the citizens quit demanding that their living rooms, games, and music quit being saturated with violence, maybe we can talk. The problem is the culture, not of guns, but of violence. If that scares people, well, they can quit patronizing it and arm up to defend themselves against. Until we return to a society where killing people for no reason is simply unthinkable, the problem will continue, regardless of the tools used to perpetrate it. Or are you going to ban tire irons and rebar, kitchen knives, fists and feet, too?
Triggered spoiled little brat spawn of liberals is the source of the problem. Where reality is whatever they say it is and can't be challenged. They don't even know if they're male or female. If they can't figure that out, how can they figure much of anything out with any accuracy? When reality strikes, which it always does, they can't deal with it and come unhinged lashing out destroying whatever is around them.
I think we've become too "civilized". The perpetrators of these sort of crimes need to have an horrific end that no one would accept willingly. Rotting on a pike naked in the center of town isn't too extreme. Until people actually fear the results of these sort of actions they'll continue to do it.
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Happiness is being in public next to a snowflake gun grabber like you...with my Sig Sauer P320 tucked into a holster on my hip and you never know I'm carrying.
LOL! So my truck broke down uptown a while back, see... My buddy was busy, and it would have to be trailered home... Well, it don't lock, other than the sawbox, so I grabbed my belt and slung it on (Bowie, axe, .45 Colt at the time) shrugged into my go-bag, laid my carbine over a shoulder, put on my Bailey, and started hoofing for home.
About a quarter of the way through the west side, a cop rolls up. Seems some dingbat called up and said there was an armed criminal making trouble... He sized me up, and I told him what.. So he offered a ride, but I was alright, so he gave me a grin and shook my hand (had to shift the carbine for that)...
He must have got on the horn and told everyone I was just out for a walk, because no more troubles...
But the funny part was the chick who called it in... i know who it was, because she come out and was peerin down the block... When he shook my hand and I went off, here she come to give that poor Deputy a piece of her mind. :silly:
I almost turned back around to watch the show, but I thought better of it rather than stir up troubles.
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These kids who want the adults to do something need to encourage their parents to call their congressman and tell them to encourage them to support the ‘Safe Students Act,’ legislation introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), to repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act.
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These kids who want the adults to do something need to encourage their parents to call their congressman and tell them to encourage them to support the ‘Safe Students Act,’ legislation introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), to repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act.
Right... and put hunter's safety and firearm management back into the curriculum.
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Triggered spoiled little brat spawn of liberals is the source of the problem. Where reality is whatever they say it is and can't be challenged. They don't even know if they're male or female. If they can't figure that out, how can they figure much of anything out with any accuracy? When reality strikes, which it always does, they can't deal with it and come unhinged lashing out destroying whatever is around them.
I think we've become too "civilized". The perpetrators of these sort of crimes need to have an horrific end that no one would accept willingly. Rotting on a pike naked in the center of town isn't too extreme. Until people actually fear the results of these sort of actions they'll continue to do it.
I am for getting back to letting kids sort it out, with one caveat: the society we live in today is ripe with images not of the sort of conflict we dealt with as kids (fist fights on the playground), but with group assaults and stomping people to death. The idea of 'he's had enough' and 'one on one' is lost in the cultural miasma in all forms of media, available on a daily basis from a multitude of sources. It's funny the same people who found some cartoons "too violent" watch stuff commonly on TV today that would have been X rated in the 60s for ruthless violent content.
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Remember that while the FBI dug around for a full year to indict Paul Manafort on financial crimes from 5 years ago, they completely ignored a tip which would have prevented the tragic deaths of 17 innocent people this week.
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I am for getting back to letting kids sort it out, with one caveat: the society we live in today is ripe with images not of the sort of conflict we dealt with as kids (fist fights on the playground), but with group assaults and stomping people to death. The idea of 'he's had enough' and 'one on one' is lost in the cultural miasma in all forms of media, available on a daily basis from a multitude of sources. It's funny the same people who found some cartoons "too violent" watch stuff commonly on TV today that would have been X rated in the 60s for ruthless violent content.
That's right, and returns right back to men teaching boys about honor.
A strong sense of honor promotes fair play.
It isn't any wonder that societies that omit it have young men who blow a gasket.
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We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
When citizens learn, as they have today, that the "government" was on a witch hunt and frame-up against Trump, and missed numerous warnings over this Florida deadly threat, they have every right to be fully prepared to deal with serious matters on their own. (FBI in both instances)
As in "can't trust the government."
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These kids who want the adults to do something need to encourage their parents to call their congressman and tell them to encourage them to support the ‘Safe Students Act,’ legislation introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), to repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act.
But asking for support for the Safe Students Act would require those who believe that absence of guns equals safety from violence to admit their ideas are DEAD wrong. Limousine Liberals will never admit their mistake in requiring all schools be gun free zones (making students easy targets) nor will they ever learn from their failed experiments in social engineering. They refuse to live in the real world, except of course when it comes to their own body guards and own security needs.
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As a rule, all cops are for is bringing the body bags.
If you can't defend yourself, chances are, you'll be in one.
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When citizens learn, as they have today, that the "government" was on a witch hunt and frame-up against Trump, and missed numerous warnings over this Florida deadly threat, they have every right to be fully prepared to deal with serious matters on their own. (FBI in both instances)
As in "can't trust the government."
Except our resident Leftist thinks that empowering a self-evident corrupt government with more power to regulate with the goal to eliminate your ability to defend yourself is necessary. Refusal to go along with said proposals are 'selfish'.
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They make a good varmint rifle, but the ordinary .223/5.56 AR fires too small a bullet for deer in many jurisdictions. They are also good for small game and furbearers, but us old school guys will just use a .22.
I bet they'd do just fine on Key Deer. :laugh:
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I bet they'd do just fine on Key Deer. :laugh:
A .22LR can take down a griz... proven fact, though no one wants to repeat that particular experiment...
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A .22LR can take down a griz... proven fact, though no one wants to repeat that particular experiment...
Bah, yer a yankee. You don't get my joke.
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Bah, yer a yankee. You don't get my joke.
OHREALLY?
If there is a joke, that's true - I don't get it.
But you might care to check your geography before layin down such a sulfurous slur.
****slapping
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Bah, yer a yankee. You don't get my joke.
.
Maybe then, you are a slave-owner to always rely on that.
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Maybe then, you are a slave-owner to always rely on that.
@RoosGirl
See that ^^^???
THAT's a Yankee.
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Maybe then, you are a slave-owner to always rely on that.
Of course she is:
(https://thementalmilitia.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/dog_man-on-leash_howtomanup_dot_wordpress_com.jpeg)
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OHREALLY?
If there is a joke, that's true - I don't get it.
But you might care to check your geography before layin down such a sulfurous slur.
****slapping
LOL Anyone north of Tallahassee is a yankee to me. ;P
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OHREALLY?
If there is a joke, that's true - I don't get it.
But you might care to check your geography before layin down such a sulfurous slur.
****slapping
Oh yeah, the joke is that Key Deer are endangered.
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Maybe then, you are a slave-owner to always rely on that.
I have no clue what that's even supposed to mean, but thanks for proving once again you have absolutely no sense of humor. Good job.
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Of course she is:
(https://thementalmilitia.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/dog_man-on-leash_howtomanup_dot_wordpress_com.jpeg)
LOL @Frank Cannon 's avatar is my hero.
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LOL Anyone north of Tallahassee is a yankee to me. ;P
@RoosGirl
Careful there Yankee. I'm further south than you
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@RoosGirl
Careful there Yankee. I'm further south than you
Yeah, now, but I grew up in So Fla.
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Straw man. No one disagrees with that. Your job no doubt also requires that you drive a car. But why shouldn't you be required to register and insure your gun just as you do your car?
Because I don't use my gun on a publicly funded roadway.
I am not required to register and insure my vehicle on my property. Even if my property is a 1,000 acre shipping terminal or an incorporated ranch.
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"18 school shootings since Jan. 1st...by the same generation that eats laundry detergent...and you wanna say we have a gun problem." (Randy Shook)
Fake news
Florida massacre: No, there have not been 18 school shootings in 2018. Here's why that's all wrong
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/16/florida-massacre-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-in-2018-heres-why-thats-all-wrong.html (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/16/florida-massacre-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-in-2018-heres-why-thats-all-wrong.html)
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We are not in a state of rebellion against tyranny. We have a Constitution, idiot.
And to prevent tyranny, the founders recognize the right to keep and bare arms should not be infringed and made it part of the Constitution, name calling withheld.
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The First Amendment guarantees our right to speech and assembly. But municipalities can require notifications/licenses to hold a protest on public property, etc.
Yes, but they cannot require notifications, permits or insurance to gather on private property.
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You could say the same thing about the Second Amendment, you know. Remember the predicate clause about the "well-regulated militia".
And at the time it was written, the Militia was every able-bodies man. Not limited to those already in active service, but all who could step up in a time of need.
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So as an eight year old child, did you ever walk into a gun store accompanied by a parent and allowed to break open your piggy bank and allowed to purchase an AR15 and ammo? 22222frying pan
I bought guns and ammo far more powerful than those of an AR15 as a child. Some states won't allow hunting with a typical AR15 due to the ammo being to weak to make a reliable kill and lending to wounded animals being left after they run off.
The demonization of an AR15 due to the cosmetics is just silly. Most deer rifles are far more powerful.
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Maybe it is time to bring back insane asylums and lock crazy people up again.
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Maybe it is time to bring back insane asylums and lock crazy people up again.
Maybe it's time for people to do their damned jobs and stop making schools free fire zones for anyone!
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@RoosGirl
Careful there Yankee. I'm further south than you
Me too.
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We're not talking "despotism" here, for Chrissake. *****rollingeyes*****
There is a crisis of gun violence in this nation, and the citizens quite legitimately want to see something done about. What's par for the course in a Constitutional republic isn't "despotism". Stop being so damn self-centered and selfish.
It might be viewed differently if what you proposed would likely fix the problem, but it won't. People already willing to break the law (murder, gun on school grounds, etc) are not going to be stopped by laws that only impact the law abiding.
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There are several states where I can forsee law enforcement and even the Governor refusing to enforce such silly laws.
Kentucky where I'm at now and Texas being two of them.
@txradioguy
Without trying to further hijack the thread, this is an example of why I am against nation reciprocity on conceal carry laws.
A federal government that is forcing New York to accept Texas permits is the same feds that will require Texas to license and insure all guns because California decided to do so.
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It might be viewed differently if what you proposed would likely fix the problem, but it won't. People already willing to break the law (murder, gun on school grounds, etc) are not going to be stopped by laws that only impact the law abiding.
Hillary and her gang of criminals are walking around free. We are no longer a nation of laws. Laws are
just for us little people.
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Of course I believe in rights. Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact. The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right. There is no specific "right" to own a gun. That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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Of course I believe in rights. Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact. The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right. There is no specific "right" to own a gun. That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.
There is a specific, enumerated right to own a gun. The right to keep arms.
Children before the age of majority have more limited rights and greater protections. Is that really the legal route you want to use to claim the right doesn't exist? And extending that to all other rights of the Constitution?
As for felons, their rights are removed under individual cases of due process. Otherwise, we could never put one in prison.
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@RoosGirl
Careful there Yankee. I'm further south than you
Cuba?
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There is a specific, enumerated right to own a gun. The right to keep arms.
Children before the age of majority have more limited rights and greater protections. Is that really the legal route you want to use to claim the right doesn't exist? And extending that to all other rights of the Constitution?
As for felons, their rights are removed under individual cases of due process. Otherwise, we could never put one in prison.
Here's what I think is the correct answer, @thackney. I understand, respectfully, that you will disagree.
The natural right is the right to self-defense, including that of home and property. Justuce Scalia, I think, understood that, and that is why his landmark Heller decision held, for the first time in the history of our Republic, that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Now I understand that the Heller decision was, of course, made in the context of the Second Amendment. If you read the opinion, you'll be astonished at the trouble Scalia had to go to, to reach that interpretation. The Second Amendment is worded in a very peculiar way. It is not worded like that other Amendments describing the rights of Americans. It has a predicate clause about a well-regulated militia, and it - uniquely for the Constitution, I believe - uses the word "infringed".
I don't think the Second Amendment addresses the natural right at all. It talks of ensuring the resources (the men and arms) necessary for the defense of the Republic (the "free state"). I'll go out on a limb here - I think the Constitutional is as textually silent about the natural right of individual self defense as it is about the natural right of individual privacy, which is what undergirds the hated right of abortion.
I hail Scalia for discerning the missing piece of the Constitution - that we have the natural right to defend ourselves as individuals, and the government cannot us deny us that right. I don't think the Second Amendment ever got us there. I think the Second Amendment, on its face, is concerned with the collective defense, not individual self defense. And because of that, I do not for a minute believe it bars the registration, licensure and insurance of firearms. To the contrary, I believe it anticipates it.
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Maybe it is time to bring back insane asylums and lock crazy people up again.
I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.
Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.
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The natural right is the right to self-defense, including that of home and property.
That is an inalienable, insoluble and inherent right granted by God, not men. The Second Amendment makes it clear that for a free state to be secure - a well regulated body of armed citizens, properly trained in the use of their own arms (which is what a militia is) the right of the PEOPLE, to keep and bear arms therefore MAY NOT be infringed.
Sadly - you continue to state that our Rights can be *reasonably* regulated, which turns inalienable Rights into privileges granted by government. Which is what you are all about.
for the first time in the history of our Republic, that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms.
That is bullshit. That ruling is not the 'first time in the history of the Republic' that it was understood that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms and to defend themselves, their homes and their nation when called upon to do so. That truth was roundly understood in total by a people who never imagined their posterity would become so stupid and foolish into making the state their monarch or that they would become wholly devoid of common sense.
The Second Amendment is worded in a very peculiar way.
No, wrong. It is very plain. Only people like you who seek to infringe, regulate and abolish that Amendment make statements that the wording is peculiar. For 145 years, for the majority of our history - no one ever considered that the Second Amendment was worded 'peculiar'. It was not until the government decided to limit and infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms that clever arguments from lawyers began to supplant and convolute plain wording to fit into their redefinition for the purpose of regulating a right into a mere privilege.
I think the Second Amendment, on its face, is concerned with the collective defense, not individual self defense. And because of that, I do not for a minute believe it bars the registration, licensure and insurance of firearms. To the contrary, I believe it anticipates it.
The Constitution only anticipates the inevitable effort the State will make to abolish Rights and enslave a people to despotism and tyranny. It is why the Constitution is a document that sets the parameters of what Government is permitted to do - and expressly defines what it may not touch and what limits are placed upon it. It does not address what the people, the citizenry are limited or permitted to do. It only addresses the constructs and operation of Government and explicitly details what it may and may not do.
It is only people like you who assert that the Constitution created and administers Rights and therefore the courts may interpret the plain language of the Constitution to mean whatever they say it means at any given moment at the behest of any particular lobbying group and ideology they are beholden to.
The Constitution sets the limits and reach of government, period. That is why the words 'shall not be infringed' were placed there. Government has no Constitutional authority to infringe upon, limit or regulate arms, or the possession and use of arms by the people. In addressing what government may and may not do in order to head a free state, a citizenry disciplined in the use and maintenance of their own arms is necessary and therefore their right to keep and bear arms MAY NOT BE INFRINGED UPON BY THE GOVERNMENT.
It is tyrant wannabes like you who tell us that our rights are not absolute and subject to whatever limits and restrictions the government deems necessary to put upon them.
Then you dress it up as Constitutional, declare the wording 'peculiar' and tell us that the courts can nullify and redefine what the Constitution itself plainly states outside of an Amendment, passed and ratified.
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I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.
Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.
Do we want to spend the money? Do we want to change the laws? Do we have the collective will to fight that fight?
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Do we want to spend the money? Do we want to change the laws? Do we have the collective will to fight that fight?
Have you an objection? A preference?
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I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.
Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.
Hi there! I don't know about where you live. But here in Los Angeles a lot of homeless people ARE mentally ill. Some of them talk to themselves, hear voices, etc. Some of them drink or do drugs, sometimes to cope with the mental illness. A lot are vets. Our weather makes this city very attractive to people who live outside. Many of the people I've met are kind of like hobos.
When I first moved here from NM, I lived in nutty Venice Beach. There were homeless people there who were members of the community; they were largely alcoholics, mentally ill, and/or handicapped, and they interacted with other Venice residents. I got to know an older man named Sppon, who rode around in a wheelchair and always reeked of booze. We sometimes talked about his kids in Oklahoma, whom he missed but didn't want to see. One night I was walking my dog and was accosted by a tripping druggie; Spoon appeared from nowhere and distracted him while I left. He probably saved my life. When I moved from Venice to Hollywood, Spoon warned me that the homeless community there was different, more drug-addicted, violent, unpredictable.
Sorry so long-winded. A lot of these guys have real problems; some of them are still real hobos who would probably ride the rails if they could.
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Who knows whether we'll ever be told this young man's story. Was it mental illness, anger, resentment or just a desire for infamy?
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Have you an objection? A preference?
I merely mean, that it's easy for us to call for action. But we will need to seriously COMMIT to a solution.
I just read an article in the Miami Palm Beach Post about calls for more school security, adding better fencing, more police. One of the interviewees said that each shooting incident brings this response; then people move on to other topics, and nothing really changes. We will have to work hard to fix this.
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I merely mean, that it's easy for us to call for action. But we will need to seriously COMMIT to a solution.
I just read an article in the Miami Palm Beach Post about calls for more school security, adding better fencing, more police. One of the interviewees said that each shooting incident brings this response; then people move on to other topics, and nothing really changes. We will have to work hard to fix this.
You are absolutely right @LauraTXNM and, if I haven't said so already, Welcome to TBR!
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Have you an objection? A preference?
Sorry, preferences --
1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer. That's the easy one. Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.
2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately. And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers? More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill? More hospitals and psychiatrists? More interventions? More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?
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Certainly when a school child presents behaviors like cutting, harming animals and/or expressing a desire to hurt others, there needs to be some sort of intervention. I fear, however, that the minute a school official tries to do something, the offended helicoptering parents will swoop into his office with lawyer in tow. After the threats to sue for defamation and myriad other torts, the chastened principal will be limited to telling the kid's teachers to be careful around Junior - and good luck.
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You are absolutely right @LauraTXNM and, if I haven't said so already, Welcome to TBR!
Thank you! I'm really hopeful that maybe this tragedy will help us start to seriously look at these issues. But it needs to come from us citizens, not Congress.
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Thank you! I'm really hopeful that maybe this tragedy will help us start to seriously look at these issues. But it needs to come from us citizens, not Congress.
We already know what the answer is we just need to find the will to do it.
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Sorry, preferences --
1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer. That's the easy one. Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.
2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately. And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers? More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill? More hospitals and psychiatrists? More interventions? More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?
:thumbsup:
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Who knows whether we'll ever be told this young man's story. Was it mental illness, anger, resentment or just a desire for infamy?
What does it really matter? The deed is done. The perp chose a soft target in a gun-free zone where few to none had any ability to defend themselves.
We live in a society that has tossed out God and foundational biblical faith and adherence for a newfound secular morality that satisfies the flesh and fosters irresponsibility. We no longer teach our kids a biblical morality that maintained a common foundation to undergird a civil society. Today, we no longer recognize real sin or evil - while declaring what once sustained us as a society to be sin and evil. So now, when something like this happens - everyone screams 'why???!!!' Was it mental illness? Did the guns possess him to do it? Is the availability of guns making it easy to kill innocents? Should the Second Amendment and selfishness be blamed for the fact this nut job goes and kills a bunch of unarmed kids in a school he once went to?
I see the reasons 'why' clearly. God's hedge of protection is no longer there, because we as a people have spit in His face in order to follow our own golden calves that we say are God. He is forbidden to be mentioned or prayed to in school. Society has rejected Him for a god that soothes modern morality. So why would the True God be around to protect a people who have discarded Him? We are suffering the natural consequences of a society going it's own way.
So now we all struggle to discover the cause and the reasons this evil was done in some kind of silly therapeutic effort of feelgoodism to prevent future evil from happening in a society that embraces other evils as righteousness. Reminds me of what Isaiah warned of a similar people who liked to parade their wickedness as righteousness:
And I will make petulant children their princes,
and infants shall rule over them.
And the people will oppress one another,
every one his fellow
and every one his neighbor;
the youth will be insolent to the elder,
and despise the honorable. - Isaiah 3:4-5
I just have to laugh at all the striving for wind here.
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Certainly when a school child presents behaviors like cutting, harming animals and/or expressing a desire to hurt others, there needs to be some sort of intervention. I fear, however, that the minute a school official tries to do something, the offended helicoptering parents will swoop into his office with lawyer in tow. After the threats to sue for defamation and myriad other torts, the chastened principal will be limited to telling the kid's teachers to be careful around Junior - and good luck.
Here’s a hypothetical. I have a 13-year-old son who’s been acting out, becoming increasingly aggressive. I find out he’s injuring or killing animals. What do I do? Do I call the police?
If I’m lucky, we have money to get him help. And if he has to be committed, we can do it in a “nice†place until he’s 18. Hopefully by then he’ll be “betterâ€.
If I don’t have money to get him help, I still love him and want to get him help. But do I want him thrown into a hellhole until he’s 18? Do we have a system with places to actually help these kids?
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Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.
One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."
So, if they're conceding that their 150 years of trying to do something constitute "doing nothing," I agree with them, as far as outcome.
Which means they're admitting their ignorance-inspired efforts have been worthless.
In which case, isn't it time they stepped aside, and let the doctor work? Rather than insisting on power crystals and holy water, and burning garlic in sacrifice to the gods, or whatever they're absolutely positive will fix the problem this time?
And since they come from a background of ignorance and superstition, they're almost certainly going to be outraged when the professional tells them, "Your myths are irrelevant, accomplish nothing, and often make things worse." But whether or not they're outraged, that's the fact. And their own admission that their 150 years of effort constitute "Doing nothing" is proof. They have no idea what they're talking about, but want their claims validated.
Well, that's not going to happen.
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We already know what the answer is we just need to find the will to do it.
I think you’re right. But as AMERICANS, we have to be willing to affect the rights of individuals, even if they happen to be in groups we like and respect. (Focusing on the mental illness angle.). And do we want to spend more money on a whole category of Social Services? Because that’s where a lot of this falls.
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@txradioguy
Without trying to further hijack the thread, this is an example of why I am against nation reciprocity on conceal carry laws.
A federal government that is forcing New York to accept Texas permits is the same feds that will require Texas to license and insure all guns because California decided to do so.
@thackney that's an excellent point that those of us who believe in and exercise the RTKBA on a daily basis need to seriously consider.
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Hi there! I don't know about where you live. But here in Los Angeles a lot of homeless people ARE mentally ill. Some of them talk to themselves, hear voices, etc. Some of them drink or do drugs, sometimes to cope with the mental illness. A lot are vets. Our weather makes this city very attractive to people who live outside. Many of the people I've met are kind of like hobos.
When I first moved here from NM, I lived in nutty Venice Beach. There were homeless people there who were members of the community; they were largely alcoholics, mentally ill, and/or handicapped, and they interacted with other Venice residents. I got to know an older man named Sppon, who rode around in a wheelchair and always reeked of booze. We sometimes talked about his kids in Oklahoma, whom he missed but didn't want to see. One night I was walking my dog and was accosted by a tripping druggie; Spoon appeared from nowhere and distracted him while I left. He probably saved my life. When I moved from Venice to Hollywood, Spoon warned me that the homeless community there was different, more drug-addicted, violent, unpredictable.
Sorry so long-winded. A lot of these guys have real problems; some of them are still real hobos who would probably ride the rails if they could.
1. I am a vet.
2. I have over 24 years sobriety, and attend AA regularly.
3. The homeless/mentally ill are mainly mentally ill from alcohol/drug use.
4. The homeless in my town, don't go to AA.
5. A survey of over 1,000 homeless was conducted recently at the Santa Ana "encampment." Asked the question about if help were offered to them, OVER 90 PERCENT stated they didn't want help, liked their independent lifestyle as is. (extensive coverage in OC Register)
6. Since authorities now mainstream them, neighborhoods experience more crime. People like me observe for the first time in decades, house and car break-ins. This is NOT Venice. This is Orange County.
7. I have lost sympathy. Reality is different than bleeding heart liberal coddling.
8. A few months ago, one stalked me 3 times, to falsely accuse me of taking pictures of his camper site. I reported him to police, and to park ranger--WHO were not as interested, as I felt they should be.
9. Most of my neighbors are outraged.
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1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer. That's the easy one. Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.
Wrong direction. MORE useless security...
When I was in high school, maybe just 35 years ago, There was no security at the school, no fences, open campus, pickups with guns in the racks in the parking lot. Somehow we managed to mae it through without anyone shooting anyone.
You can impose more and more restrictions. You can make our schools into prisons. You can loose a federal superstate to burrow into every aspect of our lives, and rule with a tyrannical hand...
It ain't gonna change a damned thing.
At some point, you will have to admit that our way has been lost, and we need to go back to what actually works.
2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately. And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers? More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill? More hospitals and psychiatrists? More interventions? More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?
Very same problem. Very same solution.
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Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.
One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."
So, if they're conceding that their 150 years of trying to do something constitute "doing nothing," I agree with them, as far as outcome.
Which means they're admitting their ignorance-inspired efforts have been worthless.
In which case, isn't it time they stepped aside, and let the doctor work? Rather than insisting on power crystals and holy water, and burning garlic in sacrifice to the gods, or whatever they're absolutely positive will fix the problem this time?
And since they come from a background of ignorance and superstition, they're almost certainly going to be outraged when the professional tells them, "Your myths are irrelevant, accomplish nothing, and often make things worse." But whether or not they're outraged, that's the fact. And their own admission that their 150 years of effort constitute "Doing nothing" is proof. They have no idea what they're talking about, but want their claims validated.
Well, that's not going to happen.
Hmmm. I don’t think of myself as a gun grabber. And I think we’re going to have to find a uniquely AMERICAN solution to this problem that doesn’t rely on taking away all guns. So we have to convince liberals like me to give that up.
But instead we’re going to have to find a solution that involves more resources for mental illness research and treatment, tracking of medications/treatment, and increase policing, social services, and laws around it. Background checks will have to be even more detailed. Some people will be denied buying guns. Some people may have to be involuntarily committed. A few people who demonstrate serious mental illness may lose their guns. Conservatives are going to have to accept that side of it.
No system is perfect. A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people. As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR.
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What does it really matter? The deed is done. The perp chose a soft target in a gun-free zone where few to none had any ability to defend themselves.
So here’s a question. Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?
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So here’s a question. Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?
DUH.
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Hmmm. I don’t think of myself as a gun grabber. And I think we’re going to have to find a uniquely AMERICAN solution to this problem that doesn’t rely on taking away all guns. So we have to convince liberals like me to give that up.
But instead we’re going to have to find a solution that involves more resources for mental illness research and treatment, tracking of medications/treatment, and increase policing, social services, and laws around it. Background checks will have to be even more detailed. Some people will be denied buying guns. Some people may have to be involuntarily committed. A few people who demonstrate serious mental illness may lose their guns. Conservatives are going to have to accept that side of it.
No system is perfect. A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people. As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR.
The solutions isn't more legislation.
The problem isn't the guns.
These isn't any "sensible legislation" that will prevent another mass shooting.
It has to do with culture...being handcuffed by PC and a mindset that blames everything and everyone but the perp in situations like this.
It has to do with law enforcement not being able to effectively do their job and a fatal belief that punishing law abiding citizens with more and more restrictions on an enumerated Constitutional right will somehow make criminals stop committing violent acts.
But one thing is certain...more regulation and yet another law won't fix the problem.
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1. I am a vet.
2. I have over 24 years sobriety, and attend AA regularly.
3. The homeless/mentally ill are mainly mentally ill from alcohol/drug use.
4. The homeless in my town, don't go to AA.
5. A survey of over 1,000 homeless was conducted recently at the Santa Ana "encampment." Asked the question about if help were offered to them, OVER 90 PERCENT stated they didn't want help, liked their independent lifestyle as is. (extensive coverage in OC Register)
6. Since authorities now mainstream them, neighborhoods experience more crime. People like me observe for the first time in decades, house and car break-ins. This is NOT Venice. This is Orange County.
7. I have lost sympathy. Reality is different than bleeding heart liberal coddling.
8. A few months ago, one stalked me 3 times, to falsely accuse me of taking pictures of his camper site. I reported him to police, and to park ranger--WHO were not as interested, as I felt they should be.
9. Most of my neighbors are outraged.
Everything you said totally makes sense. What’s happening in Santa Ana is a huge example of a large problem. I know it’s worse in places with better weather, and I’m not sure what will make it better. The only place I know to start is with the homeless families and the few people who actively want help. The rest brings up the whole issue of drugs, drug abuse, legalization, etc. The one thing I do know, is that some mentally ill people use drugs to “self-medicateâ€, so the categories overlap.
Didn’t the judge in Santa Ana tell the police they had to find housing for all those people? Where on earth are they sending them? What do the people in Santa Ana want to do about the situation?
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Here’s a hypothetical. I have a 13-year-old son who’s been acting out, becoming increasingly aggressive. I find out he’s injuring or killing animals. What do I do? Do I call the police?....Do we have a system with places to actually help these kids?
We did at one time. It was called The Family.
A lot of issues we are now confronted with are consequences of a culture that has discarded biblical and foundational morality for a secular/humanist morality. As a result we have a majority of kids growing up with no father in the home, and we have been indoctrinated to accept and celebrate that.
Children learn their roles and their responsibilities in life from the father - NOT the mother. NOT from school.
In your hypothetical of a wayward 13 year-old, in days of old, if there was no Dad at home, the extended family - such as an uncle or cousin would 'learn him some manners'. If that failed, military academies or other structured learning facilities were optioned. If the child was truly mentally imbalanced and proved to be a danger to himself and others - that was what institutions were for.
But we do not do any of that anymore. Discipline and Punishment is something even parents are unwilling or have been shamed into refraining from. Many parents are totally disconnected from their children, having left the upbringing of them to public schools. No God, no morality, no father in the home - consequences result.
We are just beginning to really reap the fruits we have sown for ourselves as a society.
So here’s a question. Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?
How about a school that opens with prayer, teaches rules of morality from the bible and has a staff of armed teachers with proficiency skills and a big fat sign out front to announce the fact that their staff is armed and is trained to shoot to kill anyone who poses a threat to their charges?
That way you address where our actual safety and security comes from, you train up a child in the way they should go - and you have the ability to deal with the consequences of a society that has produced mass murdering cretins without a shred of understanding of right or wrong.
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Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.
One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."
PS Whoever does come up with a solution is going to be a hero and probably a martyr.
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I think you’re right. But as AMERICANS, we have to be willing to affect the rights of individuals, even if they happen to be in groups we like and respect. (Focusing on the mental illness angle.). And do we want to spend more money on a whole category of Social Services? Because that’s where a lot of this falls.
Now you are talking about something entirely different than what I thought you were. I'm talking about how to prevent tragedies at schools regardless of what the motivations of those who might want to perpetrate them might be. Focused on that alone.
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In your hypothetical of a wayward 13 year-old, in days of old, if there was no Dad at home, the extended family - such as an uncle or cousin would 'learn him some manners'. If that failed, military academies or other structured learning facilities were optioned. If the child was truly mentally imbalanced and proved to be a danger to himself and others - that was what institutions were for.
Ok, we’re in a morally bankrupt society. So for dealing with the dangerous mentally ill, we need to create more institutions and also empower police and social services to step in when parents won’t or can’t?
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Ok, we’re in a morally bankrupt society. So for dealing with the dangerous mentally ill, we need to create more institutions and also empower police and social services to step in when parents won’t or can’t?
"As society becomes more corrupt and vicious - they will have more need of masters" - Benjamin Franklin
Liberty and freedom cannot exist in a morally bankrupt society. That is the entire point.
You can establish an entirely Orwellian Police State, and it will not keep you or anyone else safe, except for those who rule you.
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DUH.
So then the shooter could still come in and get some shots off before an armed adult found and killed him? I’m honestly not sure which side is better. What if you have a school with only five teachers who want to carry? How many people does a shooter kill before an armed adult gets there?
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Now you are talking about something entirely different than what I thought you were. I'm talking about how to prevent tragedies at schools regardless of what the motivations of those who might want to perpetrate them might be. Focused on that alone.
I think we agree on the school security angle. But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats. Does that make sense?
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"As society becomes more corrupt and vicious - they will have more need of masters" - Benjamin Franklin
Liberty and freedom cannot exist in a morally bankrupt society. That is the entire point.
You can establish an entirely Orwellian Police State, and it will not keep you or anyone else safe, except for those who rule you.
But then we can’t have liberty. Since we can’t force everyone to be moral.
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So then the shooter could still come in and get some shots off before an armed adult found and killed him? I’m honestly not sure which side is better. What if you have a school with only five teachers who want to carry? How many people does a shooter kill before an armed adult gets there?
This could not occur at our local high school. Sure somebody might go off... but there's a gun in every pickup truck out in the parking lot, and I would dare say that there's quite a few good ol boys packing a boot gun, and every redneck boy there is is packing at least a big folding knife as a matter of course.
Who is talking about only armed adults?
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I think we agree on the school security angle. But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats. Does that make sense?
No. Denying the right of my kid to protect himself is your primary failure.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to the bully is what allows bullies to exist.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to a shooter is what allows the shooter to exist.
All it takes for evil to prevail is for tyranny to legislate till good men can do nothing.
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This could not occur at our local high school. Sure somebody might go off... but there's a gun in every pickup truck out in the parking lot, and I would dare say that there's quite a few good ol boys packing a boot gun, and every redneck boy there is is packing at least a big folding knife as a matter of course.
Who is talking about only armed adults?
Ok, I understand kids having guns in lockers for drill practice after school or in their cars for hunting, etc., but I can’t agree with students carrying around guns at school. I’m assuming you only mean in high school, not middle school, right?
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No. Denying the right of my kid to protect himself is your primary failure.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to the bully is what allows bullies to exist.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to a shooter is what allows the shooter to exist.
All it takes for evil to prevail is for tyranny to legislate till good men can do nothing.
When a kid is dangerously mentally ill, that goes beyond being a bully. I don’t think middle schoolers can deal with a mentally ill shooter.
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Ok, I understand kids having guns in lockers for drill practice after school or in their cars for hunting, etc., but I can’t agree with students carrying around guns at school. I’m assuming you only mean in high school, not middle school, right?
Depends on the kid, I guess.
I was packin the whole dang time. Who did that hurt?
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When a kid is dangerously mentally ill, that goes beyond being a bully. I don’t think middle schoolers can deal with a mentally ill shooter.
An absurd position, as the other kids are the target, and there are no where near enough teachers or adults to effect the matter.
It is the same ol thing - this shit is over in seconds... minutes. Authority NEVER arrives in time to do anything but bring the body bags.
What you are doing, in effect, is denying my kid his right to self defense. And if there is no one else to defend him, I would assert that his own defense is the only defense he has.
For that reason I told my sons to ignore weapons laws.
For that reason I bought both my daughters a switchblade knife to carry at all times.
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Depends on the kid, I guess.
I was packin the whole dang time. Who did that hurt?
Nobody, because you weren’t nuts ;). I assume ;).
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An absurd position, as the other kids are the target, and there are no where near enough teachers or adults to effect the matter.
It is the same ol thing - this shit is over in seconds... minutes. Authority NEVER arrives in time to do anything but bring the body bags.
What you are doing, in effect, is denying my kid his right to self defense. And if there is no one else to defend him, I would assert that his own defense is the only defense he has.
For that reason I told my sons to ignore weapons laws.
For that reason I bought both my daughters a switchblade knife to carry at all times.
Roamer, would you want a twelve-year-old packing at school? What is your lower age limit on carrying at school?
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Nobody, because you weren’t nuts ;). I assume ;).
And if someone DID go nuts?
I could bark a squirrel long before middle school. I could dot a gopher right in his eye.
Knowing me then, my britches would be full of mud, but I would stand a fair chance of walking away.
And a helluva lot better chance than without.
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But then we can’t have liberty. Since we can’t force everyone to be moral.
No. We cannot have liberty.
Liberty requires that the people who live by it, are self-governed according to biblical morality - and therefore have little to no need for the power of the state to impose law and order.
A lawless people must be ruled by the power of the state to keep a semblance of law and order - and when a lawless people choose lawless leaders, liberty is expunged and dies - and tyranny replaces it.
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I think we agree on the school security angle. But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats. Does that make sense?
Of course it does.
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...No system is perfect. A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people. As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR.
I think it is a huge mistake to focus on the guns and think that can keep people safe from those who have chosen to kill and injure large numbers of innocent.
Restricting the guns will make more people unable to defend themselves.
And we have several demonstrations of recent mass murder without using a gun. We need to learn how to stop those that will kill others. We need to learn to not tolerate insane behavior because it might hurt their feelings.
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Roamer, would you want a twelve-year-old packing at school? What is your lower age limit on carrying at school?
I ran a trap line after school. I would get off the bus at a farm up the way, and chase the creek home, cleaning and setting my traps. That necessarily means I carried a .22 pistol (for dispatch on the line) in my pack dang near every day to school. And yeah... I was about 12. Maybe even 10...
You obviously don't come from the country. Guns are just a part of living. As are knives. I have never spent a day one since I was a lad without at least one knife in my pocket... School rules be damned.
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I think it is a huge mistake to focus on the guns and think that can keep people safe from those who have chosen to kill and injure large numbers of innocent.
Restricting the guns will make more people unable to defend themselves.
And we have several demonstrations of recent mass murder without using a gun. We need to learn how to stop those that will kill others. We need to learn to not tolerate insane behavior because it might hurt their feelings.
I agree with you. Instead of pampering certain individuals, they ALL need to be taught that they alone are responsible for their actions and will suffer consequences if they make bad choices.
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I think it is a huge mistake to focus on the guns and think that can keep people safe from those who have chosen to kill and injure large numbers of innocent.
Restricting the guns will make more people unable to defend themselves.
And we have several demonstrations of recent mass murder without using a gun. We need to learn how to stop those that will kill others. We need to learn to not tolerate insane behavior because it might hurt their feelings.
I totally agree. I see this as more about mental illness. But I’m sure there will a few ways it will touch different parts of our society including education, housing, gun ownership, etc.
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I ran a trap line after school. I would get off the bus at a farm up the way, and chase the creek home, cleaning and setting my traps. That necessarily means I carried a .22 pistol (for dispatch on the line) in my pack dang near every day to school. And yeah... I was about 12. Maybe even 10...
You obviously don't come from the country. Guns are just a part of living. As are knives. I have never spent a day one since I was a lad without at least one knife in my pocket... School rules be damned.
I’m what you can get about one generation removed from the country. My family is from Waco, TX, and Salida, CO. My grandfather rode his horse to school from his dad’s farm — which is still in the family. We went back annually for “Homecoming†at the family cemetery. I grew up on the TX NM MX border, about five minutes into the country. You bet my dad had protection. My sister owned a pecan farm and kept a sawed-off under her bed and a couple of big dogs for protection — she never ended up using the shotgun, but one of her dogs wounded an intruder who later returned just to killthe dog. We never traveled without a gun in the car. When my mom moved to Los Angeles I had to warn her about driving around with it. Same with knives. I had to explain to my sister why my son couldn’t carry a pocket knife to school.
I grew up around guns, but I was always too busy reading to be really interested. I am trying to educate myself, and since my family has all died off, you are the intelligent people who have the same background as my family and discuss these issues. There are a lot of Americans out there who no longer have that connection. I, for one, am trying to bridge the gap. I am here to learn.
Sorry I wasted your time.
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Ok, we’re in a morally bankrupt society. So for dealing with the dangerous mentally ill, we need to create more institutions and also empower police and social services to step in when parents won’t or can’t?
Use of socratic debate is a nice touch. I hope that’s because it’s just how you roll and not because you’re doing a paper for poly sci. By some of those questions one might be drawn to suspect the latter if one were suspicious by nature. As it happens, I’m not. ^-^
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Use of socratic debate is a nice touch. I hope that’s because it’s just how you roll and not because you’re doing a paper for poly sci. By some of those questions one might be drawn to suspect the latter if one were suspicious by nature. As it happens, I’m not. ^-^
Since I just turned 48, it would be unlikely for me to be doing a paper. And I was a history major. PoliSci? Meh.
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I grew up around guns, but I was always too busy reading to be really interested. I am trying to educate myself, and since my family has all died off, you are the intelligent people who have the same background as my family and discuss these issues. There are a lot of Americans out there who no longer have that connection. I, for one, am trying to bridge the gap. I am here to learn.
Sorry I wasted your time.
You are not wasting my time.
'Bridging the gap' is impossible, because the more urbane believe in a false sense of security, and a dependence upon services that skew their thinking.
The principles remain the very same. Your folks no doubt taught you to do for yourself, And that necessarily remains, no matter where you are.
NO ONE will protect you in the city, any more than in the country (in fact, I would assert even less in the city). As always, you must protect yourself. What you propose limits your own ability to do so in context.
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You are not wasting my time.
'Bridging the gap' is impossible, because the more urbane believe in a false sense of security, and a dependence upon services that skew their thinking.
The principles remain the very same. Your folks no doubt taught you to do for yourself, And that necessarily remains, no matter where you are.
NO ONE will protect you in the city, any more than in the country (in fact, I would assert even less in the city). As always, you must protect yourself. What you propose limits your own ability to do so in context.
Never mind.
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Never mind.
Let me ask you a question:
Say your own child was inside the school in Florida as the shooter was on his rampage.
Say you are out front with the other parents, not knowing what was going on...
Would you be more or less comforted knowing that your own baby in there was packing a pistol?
The answer is self evident.
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Let me ask you a question:
Say your own child was inside the school in Florida as the shooter was on his rampage.
Say you are out front with the other parents, not knowing what was going on...
Would you be more or less comforted knowing that your own baby in there was packing a pistol?
The answer is self evident.
My son goes to a Jewish day school. We’ve been dealing with this kind of threat for years. Our kids drill for this WEEKLY.
This was on my school’s radar before Columbine happened.
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My son goes to a Jewish day school. We’ve been dealing with this kind of threat for years. Our kids drill for this WEEKLY.
This was on my school’s radar before Columbine happened.
Nice. but that did not answer my question.
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I’m what you can get about one generation removed from the country. My family is from Waco, TX, and Salida, CO. My grandfather rode his horse to school from his dad’s farm — which is still in the family. We went back annually for “Homecoming†at the family cemetery. I grew up on the TX NM MX border, about five minutes into the country. You bet my dad had protection. My sister owned a pecan farm and kept a sawed-off under her bed and a couple of big dogs for protection — she never ended up using the shotgun, but one of her dogs wounded an intruder who later returned just to killthe dog. We never traveled without a gun in the car. When my mom moved to Los Angeles I had to warn her about driving around with it. Same with knives. I had to explain to my sister why my son couldn’t carry a pocket knife to school.
I grew up around guns, but I was always too busy reading to be really interested. I am trying to educate myself, and since my family has all died off, you are the intelligent people who have the same background as my family and discuss these issues. There are a lot of Americans out there who no longer have that connection. I, for one, am trying to bridge the gap. I am here to learn.
Sorry I wasted your time.
You have been a good part of the discussion. Even when we don't agree, if we can keep the discussion civil, we can all benefit from the discussion.
Cheers!
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Nice. but that did not answer my question.
My point is, that my son would never be IN that situation. It is impossible for me to stand in those shoes. Sorry if that’s not the answer you’re looking for.
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My point is, that my son would never be IN that situation. It is impossible for me to stand in those shoes. Sorry if that’s not the answer you’re looking for.
Forgive me, but a fallacy. :shrug:
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My point is, that my son would never be IN that situation. It is impossible for me to stand in those shoes. Sorry if that’s not the answer you’re looking for.
@LauraTXNM
Why do you say that
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Forgive me, but a fallacy. :shrug:
I utterly cannot imagine the situation you describe. So I can’t answer your question. Sorry.
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@LauraTXNM
Why do you say that
Why do I say what?
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Why do I say what?
22222frying pan
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It is passed time, for more of this. I believe firmer hands of adult parenting, and less coddling, will go a great distance to managing "mental illness," in youths.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28056467_2048022932149630_7984836095479453509_n.jpg?oh=7c84e28d1161fcdfd58a9f5715e0fefd&oe=5B20189C)
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I utterly cannot imagine the situation you describe. So I can’t answer your question. Sorry.
Neither could all those other parents in Florida.
Normalcy bias - It's a bitch.
No one is ever ready for disaster. But disaster inevitably comes.
No offense meant, but up in here, with thinking like that, you die.
No one ever thinks they are the ones who will be caught out with a busted car in a blizzard.
Reality ensues, and determines whether you are to be a victim, or not. :shrug:
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Neither could all those other parents in Florida.
Normalcy bias - It's a bitch.
No one is ever ready for disaster. But disaster inevitably comes.
No offense meant, but up in here, with thinking like that, you die.
No one ever thinks they are the ones who will be caught out with a busted car in a blizzard.
Reality ensues, and determines whether you are to be a victim, or not. :shrug:
I understand "never saying never;" we live in the anticipation and with the expectation of disaster. It's not a question of "if" but rather "when". In our situation, there is much more danger from bombs than guns. So your question is still outside my ability to answer. I don't know whether it would be better for my son to have a gun _at school for protection_, with all of the intent and knowledge that entails, or not. Sometimes there are worse things than death.
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I understand "never saying never;" we live in the anticipation and with the expectation of disaster. It's not a question of "if" but rather "when". In our situation, there is much more danger from bombs than guns. So your question is still outside my ability to answer. I don't know whether it would be better for my son to have a gun _at school for protection_, with all of the intent and knowledge that entails, or not. Sometimes there are worse things than death.
WOW.
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"Please, this is the 18th one this year. That's unacceptable. We are children. You guys are the adults," David Hogg said during an interview on CNN.
First, there have not been 18 this year. That is a talking point he's getting from an irresponsible adult, somewhere.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/16/parkland-school-shooting-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-already-year-column/343100002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/16/parkland-school-shooting-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-already-year-column/343100002/)
Also, he says it's the adults that must do something, but he and the Rose McGowan wannabe have been all over television trying to tell us about life.
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"Please, this is the 18th one this year. That's unacceptable. We are children. You guys are the adults," David Hogg said during an interview on CNN.
First, there have not been 18 this year. That is a talking point he's getting from and irresponsible adult, somewhere.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/16/parkland-school-shooting-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-already-year-column/343100002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/16/parkland-school-shooting-no-there-have-not-been-18-school-shootings-already-year-column/343100002/)
Also, he says it's the adults that must do something, but he and the Rose McGowan wannabe have been all over television trying to tell us about life.
It's a talking point that got started by those two Bloomberg sponsored anti gun organizations and has since been furthered with no research into whether they are factually correct or not by the media.
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I bet they'd do just fine on Key Deer. :laugh:
Any month with an 'R'....