The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Space => Topic started by: Cripplecreek on March 14, 2017, 10:31:51 am
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The Martian atmosphere is a decimated shred of what it once was, thanks to the fact that a disappearing magnetic field allowed solar winds to pummel the red planet’s skies over millions of years. So naturally, one solution to making Mars more habitable may be to resurrect its magnetosphere — and it’s a crazy idea NASA scientists are actually looking into.
At Wednesday’s Planetary Science Vision 2050 Workshop at the NASA headquarters in Washington, D.C., NASA’s Planetary Science Division Director Jim Green spoke about how this magnetic shield would work.
“It may be feasible that we can get up to these higher field strengths that are necessary to provide that shielding,” Green said. “We need to be able then to also modify that direction of the magnetic field so that it always pushes the solar wind away.”
https://www.inverse.com/article/28574-nasa-mars-magnetic-shield-solar-winds
Some of us talked about this in one of the mars threads just the other day. Creating an artificial magnetic field in orbit is far better and more feasible than fanciful ideas of re starting it at mars core.
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I'm no scientist and I don't even play one on teebee,but wouldn't it be helpful if they figured out why the original magnetic field disappeared before they try to create another one?
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Some of us talked about this in one of the mars threads just the other day. Creating an artificial magnetic field in orbit is far better and more feasible than fanciful ideas of re starting it at mars core.
Has anyone estimated how much energy the magnetic field generator would require?
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I'm no scientist and I don't even play one on teebee,but wouldn't it be helpful if they figured out why the original magnetic field disappeared before they try to create another one?
They believe they know why. The core of the planet cooled off and solidified so there is no longer an active generator to create the field. The circulating electrically conductive molten core is what originally generated the magnetic field. That is the theory anyway...
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Has anyone estimated how much energy the magnetic field generator would require?
I'm not so sure it would require much energy if done right.
I wonder if you could set a cloud of iron fragments rotating opposite another cloud of iron fragments and generate a magnetic field that casts a magnetic shadow over mars. Our own moon is periodically protected when it passes through earth's magnetic shadow.
It doesn't need to be a strong magnetic field, just large. Your average refrigerator magnet is 10s of thousands of times stronger than the earth's magnetic field. Earth's magnetic field strength is about 1/30,000 of a Tesla. Speaker magnets typically generate field strengths of 1 to 2.5 Teslas.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-magnetic-field-strength.htm
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I found this site where they calculated the energy to be in Earth's magnetic field to be 1026 ergs. A sizeable amount.
http://ajp.dickinson.edu/Readers/Purcell/June1983-Problem1.pdf (http://ajp.dickinson.edu/Readers/Purcell/June1983-Problem1.pdf)
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I found this site where they calculated the energy to be in Earth's magnetic field to be 1026 ergs. A sizeable amount.
http://ajp.dickinson.edu/Readers/Purcell/June1983-Problem1.pdf (http://ajp.dickinson.edu/Readers/Purcell/June1983-Problem1.pdf)
Thank you for finding that. To build up the initial field on a planetary scale takes a lot of energy period.
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Thank you for finding that. To build up the initial field on a planetary scale takes a lot of energy period.
That's about 3.17 Giga Watts of power continuously for a year (total energy).
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That's about 3.17 Giga Watts of power continuously for a year (total energy).
And to put that in better perspective, Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant in California is capable is generating about 2.2 gigawatts of power. It would have to run continuously for 1.44 years to generate that amount of energy.
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And to put that in better perspective, Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant in California is capable is generating about 2.2 gigawatts of power. It would have to run continuously for 1.44 years to generate that amount of energy.
We will build hydro-power plants all up and down all those Martian canals!
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They believe they know why. The core of the planet cooled off and solidified so there is no longer an active generator to create the field. The circulating electrically conductive molten core is what originally generated the magnetic field. That is the theory anyway...
@DB
Thanks,I didn't know that.
My question now is "What can they do to reverse this so they aren't wasting their time trying to "push a boulder up a hill"?
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@DB
Thanks,I didn't know that.
My question now is "What can they do to reverse this so they aren't wasting their time trying to "push a boulder up a hill"?
I doubt it can be reversed short of changing the orbit of Mars by a few million miles
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That's about 3.17 Giga Watts of power continuously for a year (total energy).
That's not so bad. For comparison google tells me NY City used 60 thousand gigawatt-hours last year.
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I doubt it can be reversed short of changing the orbit of Mars by a few million miles
@geronl
Well,if they can't reverse whatever it was that caused Mars to lose it's magnetic field,they are wasting their time trying to create a new magnetic field.
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That's not so bad. For comparison google tells me NY City used 60 thousand gigawatt-hours last year.
@Idaho_Cowboy
Hard to believe that about a place with the majority of the residents living the dark,ain't it?
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@geronl
Well,if they can't reverse whatever it was that caused Mars to lose it's magnetic field,they are wasting their time trying to create a new magnetic field.
Just build bigger domes. or any domes.
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Just build bigger domes. or any domes.
@geronl
How would that reverse the effects of what is happening within the planet?
Asking because I really don't know,not because I'm trying to be a smart-ass.
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That's about 3.17 Giga Watts of power continuously for a year (total energy).
1 erg = 1.0E-7 WattSeconds. So wouldn't 10E26 ergs be 10E19 WattSeconds ?
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@geronl
How would that reverse the effects of what is happening within the planet?
Asking because I really don't know,not because I'm trying to be a smart-ass.
Nothing will. That doesn't mean we can't still live there. The habitats will simply need to be much tougher to withstand solar radiation.
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That's not so bad. For comparison google tells me NY City used 60 thousand gigawatt-hours last year.
I'm not so sure its a matter of how much energy is available anyway. Basically they're talking about placing something big and magnetic at the lagrange point between mars and the sun and passively casting a magnetic shadow.
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Whatever happens, never ever allow an HOA on Mars!
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1 erg = 1.0E-7 WattSeconds. So wouldn't 10E26 ergs be 10E19 WattSeconds ?
I think we both slipped some decimal points... The original post was 1026 ergs which is 1E26 not 10E26... So 1E26 * 1E-7 / 31.54E6 = 317 Giga Watts for a year... Oh well...
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Whatever happens, never ever allow an HOA on Mars!
@geronl
I disagree. While the surface of the sun would be a better place for them,I could live with them all being sent to Mars.
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I think we both slipped some decimal points... The original post was 1026 ergs which is 1E26 not 10E26... So 1E26 * 1E-7 / 31.54E6 = 317 Giga Watts for a year... Oh well...
That's right! I'm just not used to seeing power as watt-years.
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That calculation only works if you assume the power in the field lasts for only one second.
I think the point was that earth's magnetic field is similar to a battery as in a charge. Once the field is up it doesn't take nearly as much energy to maintain it. So the 1E26 ergs was the total energy to collapse it whether done in a second or a year.
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That's right! I'm just not used to seeing power as watt-years.
Sorry I didn't see your response before replying...
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Mars is smaller and much farther from the solar radiation source. It's magnetic field would not need to be as powerful as Earths
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Mars is smaller and much farther from the solar radiation source. It's magnetic field would not need to be as powerful as Earths
Earth's magnetic field is very weak. People have a misconception that its a strong magnetic field but the average refrigerator magnet is some 30,000 times stronger.
The real issue is how to make a large enough magnetic field and correctly orient it so mars rests in its magnetic shadow.
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Earth's magnetic field is very weak. People have a misconception that its a strong magnetic field but the average refrigerator magnet is some 30,000 times stronger.
The real issue is how to make a large enough magnetic field and correctly orient it so mars rests in its magnetic shadow.
Gotta disagree with you here. Magnetic strength is defined by intensity (lines of force) over a given area. The refrigerator magnetic field covers a tiny focused area verses the earth's huge area. A comparison would be to shine a laser light on the ground in day light and then say the laser was stronger because it is brighter - not even close.
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Mars is smaller and much farther from the solar radiation source. It's magnetic field would not need to be as powerful as Earths
I'm just guessing here, but it would seem that the size difference may not matter that much. It takes a large enough magnetic field to divert the solar winds/cosmic rays around the object meaning it takes a lot of depth to get the winds to bend around what their going toward. For example if you put a baseball out in space and put a little magnet in it, I doubt it would do any meaningful diverting of cosmic rays, etc at all. It takes a lot of distance for those magnetic fields to be bend the trajectory of what you trying to be shielded from.
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If true this sounds like a game changer regarding Mars:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4343142/Human-trials-age-reversing-pill-start-six-months.html
Is okay to ping the list above or is that a no-no?
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I'm just guessing here, but it would seem that the size difference may not matter that much. It takes a large enough magnetic field to divert the solar winds/cosmic rays around the object meaning it takes a lot of depth to get the winds to bend around what their going toward. For example if you put a baseball out in space and put a little magnet in it, I doubt it would do any meaningful diverting of cosmic rays, etc at all. It takes a lot of distance for those magnetic fields to be bend the trajectory of what you trying to be shielded from.
@DB,when you say it takes a lot of "distance to bend the trajectory.....",is that another way of saying "it takes a lot of mass....."?
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@DB,when you say it takes a lot of "distance to bend the trajectory.....",is that another way of saying "it takes a lot of mass....."?
No. It is that the solar winds have to pass through the magnetic field for long enough to accumulate enough deflection to clear the planet/object. The solar winds have mass and are traveling very fast and want to keep going the same direction. The further out you start deflecting it, the less force it takes.
But... I'm no physicist. Just seems logical.
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@DB,when you say it takes a lot of "distance to bend the trajectory.....",is that another way of saying "it takes a lot of mass....."?
By the way, if magnetic fields were practical at deflecting at short distances they would just need to have magnetic fields around their living quarters/suits.
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By the way, if magnetic fields were practical at deflecting at short distances they would just need to have magnetic fields around their living quarters/suits.
@DB
Why couldn't they? After all,it has to be a lot easier to create a magnetic field around a small object than a large object.
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No. It is that the solar winds have to pass through the magnetic field for long enough to accumulate enough deflection to clear the planet/object. The solar winds have mass and are traveling very fast and want to keep going the same direction. The further out you start deflecting it, the less force it takes.
But... I'm no physicist. Just seems logical.
Actually the mass of the solar wind is pretty minimal. The sun loses about 1 earth mass every 150 million years and its losing that mass in all directions.
Part of the problem is the fact that we're talking about a mixture of electromagnetic radiation and charged particles which are 2 different animals. The charged particles are tiny but do carry considerable momentum. They're what knocks pieces out of DNA strands and cause astronauts to see flashes in their eyes. That's why your magnetic field needs time to deflect and it is dangerous and deadly.
At the end of the day we're still talking about potential technologies in the future. If our species survives long enough we'll undoubtedly achieve technological proficiency to build a Faraday cage around mars with enough solar collecting capacity to generate enough electricity to produce a huge magnetic field.
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@DB
Why couldn't they? After all,it has to be a lot easier to create a magnetic field around a small object than a large object.
"The biological consequences of long term exposure to strong magnetic fields are not well studied, so far as I am aware. I have one qualitative data point, based on the fact that, putting one’s head into the gap between the pole pieces of a large cyclotron magnet, where the field is of the order of 5x103 Gauss, introduces noticeable electrolytic effects. Rotating the head provides scintillations in the retina, and an acid taste soon develops in the saliva. Both of these effects suggest significant interference with the normal body chemistry. We need hard laboratory data on the biological damage to mammals residing in strong magnetic fields. The necessary experiments should not be difficult."
As one's body is conductive, whenever there is motion of a body within the magnetic field, a voltage is created within the body.
http://www.minimagnetosphere.rl.ac.uk/downloads/pdfs/15Parker.pdf (http://www.minimagnetosphere.rl.ac.uk/downloads/pdfs/15Parker.pdf)
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@DB
Why couldn't they? After all,it has to be a lot easier to create a magnetic field around a small object than a large object.
But it is a lot harder to sufficiently deflect the radiation over a small amount of distance. Much more "force" is needed to change the direction of the radiation if the interaction distance is small.
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The biological consequences of long term exposure to strong magnetic fields are not well studied, so far as I am aware. I have one qualitative data point, based on the fact that, putting one’s head into the gap between the pole pieces of a large cyclotron magnet, where the field is of the order of 5x103 Gauss, introduces noticeable electrolytic effects. Rotating the head provides scintillations in the retina, and an acid taste soon develops in the saliva. Both of these effects suggest significant interference with the normal body chemistry. We need hard laboratory data on the biological damage to mammals residing in strong magnetic fields. The necessary experiments should not be difficult.
As one's body is conductive, whenever there is motion of a body within the magnetic field, a voltage is created within the body.
No problem getting test critters. Sanctuary and inner cities in Dim states are full of potential candidates. Since we pay them to breed,we might as well get some use out of them.
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But it is a lot harder to sufficiently deflect the radiation over a small amount of distance. Much more "force" is needed to change the direction of the radiation if the interaction distance is small.
@thackney
Ok,that makes sense to me,if that means anything.
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@thackney
Ok,that makes sense to me,if that means anything.
I'm not claiming it will take the same energy to protect a planet as it does to protect a small area, but the scaling of the reduction of energy is not going to be linear with the scaling of the reduction of area.
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I'm not finding any specifics on this proposal. What is the shape of the object and what are the materials used in its construction? Whether it is a disk a toroid or a sphere or totally tubular.
Is it inflated or expanded? By its very nature does it become self aware upon inflation? Is it solar powered? Is it rotating?
Do you build a double layered device like a solenoid?
Using superconducting materials seems like a must. Whether rings like in the below illustration or generally dispersed. I think rings or coils. But I don't know cause I don't have the training to know. Just speculating.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3UhmV29aqgw/WLxsQmvYmvI/AAAAAAABTfA/NRjNk0T1o0s8njDgqF0Rw_eoXpBt4u6xQCLcB/s640/magshieldplanet.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2sbrjg2.png)
Before I forget, does this only take care of solar radiation? What about GCR-galactic cosmic radiation?
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Actually the mass of the solar wind is pretty minimal. The sun loses about 1 earth mass every 150 million years and its losing that mass in all directions.
Part of the problem is the fact that we're talking about a mixture of electromagnetic radiation and charged particles which are 2 different animals. The charged particles are tiny but do carry considerable momentum. They're what knocks pieces out of DNA strands and cause astronauts to see flashes in their eyes. That's why your magnetic field needs time to deflect and it is dangerous and deadly.
At the end of the day we're still talking about potential technologies in the future. If our species survives long enough we'll undoubtedly achieve technological proficiency to build a Faraday cage around mars with enough solar collecting capacity to generate enough electricity to produce a huge magnetic field.
I realize the mass is low of the particles, but they're moving pretty darn fast.
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We'll probably be able to do something like this as soon as we finally get fusion power plants, which are just around the corner......