The Briefing Room
Archives => Alternate Realities => Topic started by: Quix on January 02, 2017, 12:18:04 am
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Via Nexus Newsfeed version. referent link yields a 404 error.
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https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/home-family-pets/seven-things-all-women-need-in-a-relationship (https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/home-family-pets/seven-things-all-women-need-in-a-relationship)
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Men and women are at an emotional stalemate.
We feel something’s lacking in our relationships. The majority of men aren’t able to penetrate their women fully, nor are women fully opening to their men.
Women aren’t opening because men aren’t giving them what they need. Women feel disappointed and resentful; they are suffering. When women suffer, and they feel like they aren’t being seen, they close off to their men.
Fortunately, you can learn the right tools to be able to more fully penetrate your woman. You can give your partner what she needs, allowing her to feel seen so that she will open again.
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{List (annotated commentary on each is at the link):}
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1. To Feel Loved
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When women feel loved, they relax and open to us. The arguments dissipate, the sex is abundant, and their nurturing feminine energy flows throughout our lives.
Not feeling loved is the subtext of every argument that you and your partner have.
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{Qx: Note, when Attachment Disorder leaves either spouse a bottomless pit of constant, desperate neediness, problems will be chronic awaiting serious working things through--usually with a professional}
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2. To Feel Safe
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There is a war being waged on women’s self-esteem, sexuality, and safety from a very young age.
Because of the barrage of disempowering messages being sent to women regarding their sexuality, women need to have a safe space where they feel that they can trust their partners.
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3. To Feel Seen
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Women want to feel seen.
She wants to feel you hearing her, and being aware of her emotional state.
She doesn’t necessarily want you to be affected by her emotional state, but she does want you to be witness to it.
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4. To Be Allowed To Be Nurturing
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Women want to see the cracks in our armour. They want to see that we trust them enough to open up to them. They want to be able to help us through our sadness.
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5. To Feel Sexually Desired
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6. To Be Appreciated
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The feminine in all people responds primarily to praise and appreciation.
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{Qx: Who doesn't!!! Though I think it is a bit more of an intense need in most women}
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7. To Feel Like She Can Count On You
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I think it's a decent list.
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I think Chapman's 5 LOVE LANGUAGES should also be factored in for either spouse, however.
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https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483316245&sr=1-1&keywords=FIVE+LOVE+LANGUAGES (https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483316245&sr=1-1&keywords=FIVE+LOVE+LANGUAGES)
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I'm convinced love - romantic love was invented in Hollywood and by romance novelists.
I don't think it exists.
You love your children. You love your parents. But romance- people just use you for sex and it's not love.
You are better off getting a dog or a cat who will love you unconditionally
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I'm convinced love - romantic love was invented in Hollywood and by romance novelists.
I don't think it exists.
You love your children. You love your parents. But romance- people just use you for sex and it's not love.
You are better off getting a dog or a cat who will love you unconditionally
I've seen a few cases of the real authentic thing, in my life.
A shocking few, sadly.
Usually, horrific degrees of attachment disorder sabotage infatuation deepening to love or real love enduring and becoming richer. Selfishness, insecurity, low self-worth, arrogance, control freakism, etc. etc. shred the chances of authentic selfless love taking root and growing or surviving.
https://www.amazon.com/Attachments-Why-You-Love-Feel/dp/0785297375/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483323283&sr=1-1&keywords=attachment+why+you+love+feel+and+act+the+way+you+do
And, sometimes, folks are more in love with the idea of a Hollyweed Romance than they are with their partner. That's fantasy land from the beginning.
Sorry, Dear Freya, for your pains and sufferings. Yeah, dogs are much more faithful and loyal than millions of marriage partners.
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I tend to listen to advice from those with resumes proving success in a field.
My wife and I celebrate 49 years of marriage this month.
Since we were teenagers, and "experts" assured us it wouldn't work.
If you can top that, I will take your marriage advice.
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I tend to listen to advice from those with resumes proving success in a field.
My wife and I celebrate 49 years of marriage this month.
Since we were teenagers, and "experts" assured us it wouldn't work.
If you can top that, I will take your marriage advice.
Congrats. Impressive.
Some women are firmly in favor of their male gynecologists and some accept only females.
I had an elderly missionary friend in Taiwan. She'd had 10 children. I asked her how she felt about single folks who never had children giving her input given her vast experience compared to theirs. She said she welcomed it as they had a perspective, a vantage point she didn't have and she often learned useful things from their perspective.
Then there's the issue of learning from one's mistakes. Often, folks who have finally learned to do it right from making lots of wrong mistakes and overcoming them--have more to offer a couple starting out, than a couple who didn't have that many problems for 50 years. I worked hard to be a good husband and still somehow failed. My wife after 9 years married her co-worker.
Nevertheless, many marriages have benefited in lasting ways from my psychologist inputs over 40 years.
So, while I agree, to a point, that there's some sense to your assertion . . . it may not be as cut and dried absolute as you seem to make it sound.
I think the major issues in marriage are
--1. Avoiding selfishness like the plague
--2. Putting your spouse generally first with compassion and genuine love--a choice vs a feeling
--3. Submitting one to another in humility
--4. Seeking your spouse's best interest first
--5. Sacrificially servant-heartedly loving your spouse in all the ways you can prayerfully imagine to do.
--6. Taking care of yourself in ways that leave you being someone to look up to, admire, appreciate, learn from, enjoy, have fun with.
--7. Putting God first in your relationship and following His leading in how to love your spouse.
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Much of our success comes from each having independent lives, and letting each other have their time and space.
Then enjoying time spent together as well. For example we we alternate picking movies, and I usually let her decide where to eat.
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Much of our success comes from each having independent lives, and letting each other have their time and space.
Then enjoying time spent together as well. For example we we alternate picking movies, and I usually let her decide where to eat.
I think the balance you describe is a wonderful, essential aspect of successful relationships.
CONGRATS, FOR SURE.
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I think the major issues in marriage are
--1. Avoiding selfishness like the plague
--2. Putting your spouse generally first with compassion and genuine love--a choice vs a feeling
--3. Submitting one to another in humility
--4. Seeking your spouse's best interest first
--5. Sacrificially servant-heartedly loving your spouse in all the ways you can prayerfully imagine to do.
--6. Taking care of yourself in ways that leave you being someone to look up to, admire, appreciate, learn from, enjoy, have fun with.
--7. Putting God first in your relationship and following His leading in how to love your spouse.
Last, but not least, though, BOTH have to practice those, it isn't 50/50, it's 100/100. Sure, folks hit low points where they aren't up to snuff, and at times go above and beyond, but such is the nature of marriage.
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Last, but not least, though, BOTH have to practice those, it isn't 50/50, it's 100/100. Sure, folks hit low points where they aren't up to snuff, and at times go above and beyond, but such is the nature of marriage.
AGREED INDEED.
THX
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Men are different from women, and they don't always pick up on emotional cues the way we do. They're not always going to zero in on the woman who's sitting across the room, getting ready to cry. Instead of trying to make the man more feminine and inculcate him with an emotional radar that he wasn't designed for, the woman can speak up and give him a nudge, let him know what she's feeling.
If my husband told me he was going to do something around the house in the evening, but postponed it until the morning, it wouldn't "break my trust." That's overdramatizing something that isn't even an issue...or shouldn't be.
"Put in the work and end the stalemate"....the article is heavy on the implication that the man is responsible for the problems in a relationship and the burden is on him to keep it going. I don't agree with the premise that men should be walking around constantly trying to figure out what their woman is feeling, trying to gauge her state of mind, etc. That's just not who men are.
"She doesn’t necessarily want someone who cries every day, but she does want someone who has the courage to cry in front of her when he needs to."
Lord have mercy. "Necessarily?" I've never known a female who wanted a weeper. My sister-in-law's ex-husband cried at the drop of a hat. When they were going through their divorce, he cried all the time, and then he would come over to our house and cry some more. It's not nice, maybe, but that kind of behavior from a man is distasteful. It engenders nothing but contempt from women.
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I'm convinced love - romantic love was invented in Hollywood and by romance novelists.
I don't think it exists.
You love your children. You love your parents. But romance- people just use you for sex and it's not love.
You are better off getting a dog or a cat who will love you unconditionally
@Freya
It's real, I can attest to that.
My parents had it for over 50 years. When my father died, my mother never got over it.
My husband's grandparents had it for about that same period of time. They loved each other dearly.
My husband's sister has finally found the man for her. They're a perfect fit.
And after 20 years of marriage, I adore my husband with all of my heart. I know he feels the same about me. I put his wants above my own, and he puts mine above his.
Oh, sure, I dated some jerks before I met him, and if I'm being honest, I wasn't always as nice as I should have been either. So I'm sure there are a couple of men out there recalling me and saying, yeah, she was a witch. I had my heartbreaks, I was dumped, I did the dumping, and I was used, but that's part of life, and it taught me what to avoid in my future (now) husband. It's all in the past, and none of it can control me now.
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@Freya
It's real, I can attest to that.
My parents had it for over 50 years. When my father died, my mother never got over it.
My husband's grandparents had it for about that same period of time. They loved each other dearly.
My husband's sister has finally found the man for her. They're a perfect fit.
And after 20 years of marriage, I adore my husband with all of my heart. I know he feels the same about me. I put his wants above my own, and he puts mine above his.
Oh, sure, I dated some jerks before I met him, and if I'm being honest, I wasn't always as nice as I should have been either. So I'm sure there are a couple of men out there recalling me and saying, yeah, she was a witch. I had my heartbreaks, I was dumped, I did the dumping, and I was used, but that's part of life, and it taught me what to avoid in my future (now) husband. It's all in the past, and none of it can control me now.
FANTASTIC! CONGRATULATIONS!
I assume you know you have a rare relationship.
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Men are different from women, and they don't always pick up on emotional cues the way we do. They're not always going to zero in on the woman who's sitting across the room, getting ready to cry. Instead of trying to make the man more feminine and inculcate him with an emotional radar that he wasn't designed for, the woman can speak up and give him a nudge, let him know what she's feeling.
If my husband told me he was going to do something around the house in the evening, but postponed it until the morning, it wouldn't "break my trust." That's overdramatizing something that isn't even an issue...or shouldn't be.
"Put in the work and end the stalemate"....the article is heavy on the implication that the man is responsible for the problems in a relationship and the burden is on him to keep it going. I don't agree with the premise that men should be walking around constantly trying to figure out what their woman is feeling, trying to gauge her state of mind, etc. That's just not who men are.
"She doesn’t necessarily want someone who cries every day, but she does want someone who has the courage to cry in front of her when he needs to."
Lord have mercy. "Necessarily?" I've never known a female who wanted a weeper. My sister-in-law's ex-husband cried at the drop of a hat. When they were going through their divorce, he cried all the time, and then he would come over to our house and cry some more. It's not nice, maybe, but that kind of behavior from a man is distasteful. It engenders nothing but contempt from women.
Worthy points.
Certainly men's brains were not designed with as much geography devoted to managing emotional expression as the average woman's brain.
Sniveling wimpy men are hardly men.
However, there is a time for men to cry and I don't think all that much is squared away or balanced with a man who can't or won't.
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Worthy points.
Certainly men's brains were not designed with as much geography devoted to managing emotional expression as the average woman's brain.
Sniveling wimpy men are hardly men.
However, there is a time for men to cry and I don't think all that much is squared away or balanced with a man who can't or won't.
I thought my dad was a real man in every sense of the word. I saw him shed a tear at his father's funeral but he did not cry. He shed a tear or two when his sister died.
The only time I saw him actually cry was the night both of my kidneys failed and the doc told both my parents I may not make it. He held my hand and I felt a few tears fall on it.
Oh he sniffled when he chopped onions. You have to give him a pass for that though.
I will tell you this though. He didn't think it was beneath him to have tea parties with his daughters and their dollies. And he was a big old vet. Yet he would stay up all night to make a Barbie Dream house for one of his girls birthdays or put together a bike.
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FANTASTIC! CONGRATULATIONS!
I assume you know you have a rare relationship.
@Quix
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Is it all that rare though? I don't know. Certainly every couple has struggles, arguments, etc....I think the thing is to figure out whether you're in it for good and are determined to work through them, no matter what.
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Worthy points.
Certainly men's brains were not designed with as much geography devoted to managing emotional expression as the average woman's brain.
Sniveling wimpy men are hardly men.
However, there is a time for men to cry and I don't think all that much is squared away or balanced with a man who can't or won't.
@Quix
Agreed.
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I'm convinced love - romantic love was invented in Hollywood and by romance novelists.
I don't think it exists.
You love your children. You love your parents. But romance- people just use you for sex and it's not love.
You are better off getting a dog or a cat who will love you unconditionally
I knew 3/4 of the way through our first date I would marry the woman across the table from me and she later said she felt the same about me.. 20 years later still doing great.
It's hard work though-it take effort on both of our parts to keep the passion alive. Sometimes there is more romance and sometimes less. Some times we fight and argue. But romance, love and passion is always there.
We have plenty of friends who have the same kids of romantic relationships.
@Freya
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Much of our success comes from each having independent lives, and letting each other have their time and space.
Then enjoying time spent together as well. For example we we alternate picking movies, and I usually let her decide where to eat.
Yes to this^^^^^^^^^
We have separate checking and savings accounts and credit cards, never have to get each other permission to buy something we want, go away with friends for a weekend etc. Of course we married in our mid 30's and we were both independent from living single.
@truth_seeker
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Thanks for all the great posts.
Have . . . uhhh . . . Diarrhea . . . bad enough not really up to writing much.
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Men are different from women, and they don't always pick up on emotional cues the way we do. They're not always going to zero in on the woman who's sitting across the room, getting ready to cry. Instead of trying to make the man more feminine and inculcate him with an emotional radar that he wasn't designed for, the woman can speak up and give him a nudge, let him know what she's feeling.
Mrs. Joe knows I don't do hints. It's like emotional charades to me, but I'm better at charades. All she has to do is tell me what's going on, and she'll talk about it when she's ready. Sometimes I have (what for me, anyway) is a flash of insight and pick up on things, but it isn't something to count on.
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Yes to this^^^^^^^^^
We have separate checking and savings accounts and credit cards, never have to get each other permission to buy something we want, go away with friends for a weekend etc. Of course we married in our mid 30's and we were both independent from living single.
@truth_seeker
The different checking accounts saves an incredible amount of conflict and stress. We have joint accounts (in case of a serious misfortune, either can draw on either account), but she uses one and I another.
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Thanks for all the great posts.
Have . . . uhhh . . . Diarrhea . . . bad enough not really up to writing much.
Hope you feel better soon. (I was going to say I hope everything comes out okay, but that somehow didn't seem right.)
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Hope you feel better soon. (I was going to say I hope everything comes out okay, but that somehow didn't seem right.)
Thanks big.
Things much calmer now.
. . . including the other end . . . had a gallon bucket near my head in bed . . . woke up choking on spit . . . coughed and upchucked before could get the bucket in place. Oh, well. Past time to wash the sheets anyway. LOL.
Last 24-48 hours haven't taken the supplements--even the cranberry capsules--for my UTI--but it's been quite clear. Not sure what's up with that. Curious.
I now return you to the regularly scheduled lack of TMI from this "old codger."
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Mrs. Joe knows I don't do hints. It's like emotional charades to me, but I'm better at charades. All she has to do is tell me what's going on, and she'll talk about it when she's ready. Sometimes I have (what for me, anyway) is a flash of insight and pick up on things, but it isn't something to count on.
This one issue is amazingly huge in tons of marriages/partnerships.
It has long somewhat mystified me how so many women absolutely DEMAND that the man MIND READ--when men are BRAIN-WISE--very handicapped for such a task. Their brains are NOT constructed in a way that supports that task. More the opposite.
Then the woman has the audacity to conclude that the man does not love her because he doesn't mind read at all or well. Sheesh. What a set-up.
However . . . on the other side of the coin . . . to the degree that the woman is assessing that the man doesn't pay enough attention to notice subtle changes in mood etc. . . . and therefore that THAT constitutes a lack of caring . . . maybe . . . sometimes . . . in some relationships.
However, again, men's brains are not constructed for paying a lot of attention to emotional details, subtle cues. Give a man a board to saw, construct with--fine. In terms of becoming wise and understanding about something as amorphous, fuzzy, imprecise as feelings about who knows what . . . most men opt out of that "mission impossible." They feel like a fish out of water being expected to ride a Pogo-stick.
However . . . again on the other side of the coin . . . WHEN a man is courting . . . say as a teen or early 20's something bloke . . . he seems to be amazingly perceptive about such nuances. So the woman is not ENTIRELY amiss in wondering where all that perceptivity went.
However, most men are just NOT up to maintaining that level of focused attention on such emotional details of life that their physiology (brains) are not constructed well to attend to very skillfully and certainly not all that quickly in real time.
In short, in relationships . . . men are good at some things and not others . . . kind of like women . . . only opposite. What a surprise.
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This one issue is amazingly huge in tons of marriages/partnerships.
It has long somewhat mystified me how so many women absolutely DEMAND that the man MIND READ--when men are BRAIN-WISE--very handicapped for such a task. Their brains are NOT constructed in a way that supports that task. More the opposite.
Then the woman has the audacity to conclude that the man does not love her because he doesn't mind read at all or well. Sheesh. What a set-up.
However . . . on the other side of the coin . . . to the degree that the woman is assessing that the man doesn't pay enough attention to notice subtle changes in mood etc. . . . and therefore that THAT constitutes a lack of caring . . . maybe . . . sometimes . . . in some relationships.
However, again, men's brains are not constructed for paying a lot of attention to emotional details, subtle cues. Give a man a board to saw, construct with--fine. In terms of becoming wise and understanding about something as amorphous, fuzzy, imprecise as feelings about who knows what . . . most men opt out of that "mission impossible." They feel like a fish out of water being expected to ride a Pogo-stick.
However . . . again on the other side of the coin . . . WHEN a man is courting . . . say as a teen or early 20's something bloke . . . he seems to be amazingly perceptive about such nuances. So the woman is not ENTIRELY amiss in wondering where all that perceptivity went.
However, most men are just NOT up to maintaining that level of focused attention on such emotional details of life that their physiology (brains) are not constructed well to attend to very skillfully and certainly not all that quickly in real time.
In short, in relationships . . . men are good at some things and not others . . . kind of like women . . . only opposite. What a surprise.
Well, it is sort of the old 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' thing. Where I am deductive, she is intuitive. That doesn't bother either of us, and it provides a check system. When we don't come to the same conclusion by different routes, then the subject is down for further study and discussion by both of us. It is phenomenal how often we come to the same conclusion.
Had I been better at picking up on those cues as a young single man, it is likely I would have taken advantage of that for nefarious ends. It is just as well I was not ordinarily attuned. Often a couple of days later I would realize "Oh, that's what she meant." and note a missed opportunity. While they were not all missed, perhaps it is just as well most were, it made my life much less complicated.
Consider, though, in traditional male=provider, protector, hunter cultures, women being able to read subtle cues (and manipulate men) led to success and progeny. Not being able to do so often led to failure. There have been untold generations reinforcing those traits in women, just as the traits in men (hunter, fighter, provider) have been reinforced the same way.
Rewriting human cultural history goes contrary to human nature, as it has been for millennia.
That isn't going to work well, and causes a serious disruption in the way humans interact because it goes against basic behavioural instinct.
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Mrs. Joe knows I don't do hints. It's like emotional charades to me, but I'm better at charades. All she has to do is tell me what's going on, and she'll talk about it when she's ready. Sometimes I have (what for me, anyway) is a flash of insight and pick up on things, but it isn't something to count on.
@Smokin Joe
It's pretty much the same with us. I'll admit that sometimes the temptation is strong to exercise emotional blackmail and make him drag it out of me, lol. In fact, there was just such an opportunity this past weekend. But it's stupid and pointless, a silly game that he has done nothing to deserve.
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@Smokin Joe
It's pretty much the same with us. I'll admit that sometimes the temptation is strong to exercise emotional blackmail and make him drag it out of me, lol. In fact, there was just such an opportunity this past weekend. But it's stupid and pointless, a silly game that he has done nothing to deserve.
It is counterproductive, and can be damaging to a marriage/relationship if a lot of it (emotional blackmail) goes on. (Besides, he might just say, "Well, call me when you are ready to talk, I'm going fishing...")
In fact, I have counseled a grandson to walk away from a girlfriend who is notorious for playing emotional blackmail games. Every family event she isn't in the middle of (including a funeral) she dropped a bomb on him on the phone. She's had him tied up in knots for the better part of a year.
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Consider, though, in traditional male=provider, protector, hunter cultures, women being able to read subtle cues (and manipulate men) led to success and progeny. Not being able to do so often led to failure. There have been untold generations reinforcing those traits in women, just as the traits in men (hunter, fighter, provider) have been reinforced the same way.
Rewriting human cultural history goes contrary to human nature, as it has been for millennia.
That isn't going to work well, and causes a serious disruption in the way humans interact because it goes against basic behavioural instinct.
@Smokin Joe
It's funny, because the husband and I were talking just last night about the ability of women to manipulate men---if the women are skillful. That sounds so devious, but I willingly admit that we can be just that.
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@Smokin Joe
It's funny, because the husband and I were talking just last night about the ability of women to manipulate men---if the women are skillful. That sounds so devious, but I willingly admit that we can be just that.
Manipulation doesn't necessarily involve skill, only a relative shortage of women.
Where there are significantly more women than men, then the skill sets (and claws) come out.
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It is counterproductive, and can be damaging to a marriage/relationship if a lot of it (emotional blackmail) goes on. (Besides, he might just say, "Well, call me when you are ready to talk, I'm going fishing...")
In fact, I have counseled a grandson to walk away from a girlfriend who is notorious for playing emotional blackmail games. Every family event she isn't in the middle of (including a funeral) she dropped a bomb on him on the phone. She's had him tied up in knots for the better part of a year.
@Smokin Joe
That's right. Women should never assume that their man will hang around like a puppy, begging for a clue indefinitely.
I think your advice to your grandson is right on target. That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO. It will likely get worse.
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@Smokin Joe
I think your advice to your grandson is right on target. That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO. It will likely get worse.
It has continued to worsen and she jacks him around emotionally like a yo-yo. I told him he will never feel so much like a man as when he tells her "No, thanks" and just walks away from the whole situation.
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@Quix
Please explain your definition of "Attachment Disorder" for those on this thread. Thanks,
Victoria33
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It has continued to worsen and she jacks him around emotionally like a yo-yo. I told him he will never feel so much like a man as when he tells her "No, thanks" and just walks away from the whole situation.
@Smokin Joe
Exactly. He doesn't need it. Bottom line---if she really cared for him, she wouldn't treat him like that.
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@Smokin Joe
That's right. Women should never assume that their man will hang around like a puppy, begging for a clue indefinitely.
I think your advice to your grandson is right on target. That situation isn't likely to improve, IMO. It will likely get worse.
I wish my apartment allowed puppies. Unconditional love, and daily exercise.
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@Quix
Please explain your definition of "Attachment Disorder" for those on this thread. Thanks,
Victoria33
Any one or more of the following the first 6-8 years of life will result in significant to very seriously devastating Attachment Disorder (often called Reactive Attachment Disorder or RAD):
BTW, serious RAD results in physiological brain DAMAGE to 2 areas of the brain: Those having to do with managing EMOTIONAL EXPRESSION and with managing RELATIONSHIPS.
On the part of either one or both parents, though, in my experience, it is the fathers that seem to insure the worst and most devastating RAD by:
1. being cold, distant, harsh, &/or absent
2. workaholic, alcoholic, drug abuser, &/or unhealthy-sex addict
3. physically, verbally, &/or emotionally abusive
4. uninvolved, not tuned-in to each child where the child is vs where the father wants them to be in order to bolster the father's ego and preferences
5. mean
6. Chronically angry
7. Perfectionistic
8. Arrogant, stubborn, rigid, brittle, &/or thin-skinned
Such parenting--particularly by fathers, imho--will result in a child who will have CHRONIC, PERSISTENT, USUALLY DEVASTATING problems with one or more of the following:
A. Self-respect, self-worth, self-esteem--feeling usually worthless
B. perfectionism--striving always to please someone--(usually a daddy stand-in)--failing constantly and feeling worse
C. Chronic anger, frustration, exasperation--with others, with self and/or with life
D. Contrarian, virtually always cross-ways with society, authority figures, anyone who becomes significant in their life--still fighting battles with daddy that daddy constantly set-up and never respected the child in. So, the child developed a pattern of DEMANDING compliance and/or respect--to WIN--in virtually all their relationships--else they'd see themselves and the world as hopeless yet again.
E. Wimping out--an opposite sort of 'adjustment' . . . just chronically giving up--seeing any progress as hopeless and unattainable--not worth much or any effort any more.
F. Sabotaging their own health and progress because the pit they've always lived in is the only thing they know; the only thing that feels normal; the only thing they remotely know how to navigate at all.
G. A perfectionist go-getter--great at business and surface relationships but not at home in their own skin and not able to connect or bond with much of anyone long term at an emotional, deeply committed permanent relationship.
H. Can be psychopathic, sociopathic
I. A constant gnawing issue, feeling and constellation of behaviors around the issue of feeling worthless to utterly worthless. Can be quite suicidal.
J. Gritchy, prickly, whiney, constantly finding fault with others--while actually feeling worse about themselves.
K. CONSEQUENTLY, OF COURSE, they will be UNABLE to maintain close, durable, mutually satisfying, mutually respectful RELATIONSHIPS with much of anyone--particularly those closest to them. Expectations will be overly perfectionistic and small issues will be blown way out of proportion. Their 'relationships' will be more like the battleground in their early home life--though often worse.
etc.
The following 2 article are some of the best I know on the topic for short articles:
BONDING AND ATTACHMENT IN MALTREATED CHILDREN: How You Can Help
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/bonding_help.htm (http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/bonding_help.htm)
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What Can I Do To Help Maltreated Children?
Responsive adults, such as parents, teachers, and other caregivers make all the difference in the lives of maltreated children. This section suggests a few different ways to help.
Nurture these children. They need to be held, rocked, and cuddled. Be physical, caring, and loving to children with attachment problems. Be aware that for many of these children, touch in the past has been associated with pain, torture, or sexual abuse. In these cases, make sure you carefully monitor how they respond — be "attuned" to their responses to your nurturing and act accordingly. In many ways, you are providing replacement experiences that should have taken place during their infancy — but you are doing this when their brains are harder to modify and change. Therefore, they will need even more bonding experiences to help them to develop attachments.
Try to understand the behaviors before punishment or consequences. The more you can learn about attachment problems, bonding, normal development, and abnormal development, the more you will be able to develop useful behavioral and social interventions. Information about these problems can prevent you from misunderstanding the child's behaviors. When these children hoard food, for example, it should not be viewed as "stealing" but as a common and predictable result of being deprived of food during early childhood. A punitive approach to this problem (and many others) will not help the child mature. Instead, punishment may actually increase the child's sense of insecurity, distress, and need to hoard food. So many of these children's behaviors are confusing and disturbing to adults. You can get help from professionals if you find yourself struggling to create or implement a practical and useful approach to these problems.
Interact with these children based on emotional age. Abused and neglected children will often be emotionally and socially delayed. And whenever they are frustrated or fearful, they will regress. This means that, at any given moment, a ten-year old child may emotionally be a two-year old. Despite our wishes that they would "act their age" and our insistence to do so, they are not capable of that. These are the times that we must interact with them at their emotional level. If they are tearful, frustrated, or overwhelmed (emotionally age two), treat them as if they were that age. Use soothing non-verbal interactions. Hold them. Rock them. Sing quietly. This is not the time to use complex verbal arguments about the consequences of inappropriate behavior.
Be consistent, predictable and repetitive. Maltreated children with attachment problems are very sensitive to changes in schedule, transitions, surprises, chaotic social situations, and, in general, any new situation. Busy and unique social situations will overwhelm them, even if they are pleasant! Birthday parties, sleepovers, holidays, family trips, the start of the school year, and the end of the school year — all can be disorganizing for these children. Because of this, any efforts that can be made to be consistent, predictable, and repetitive will be very important in making maltreated children feel safe and secure. When they feel safe, they can benefit from the nurturing and enriching emotional and social experiences you provide them. If they are anxious and fearful, they cannot benefit from your nurturing in the same ways.
Model and teach appropriate social behaviors. Many abused and neglected children do not know how to interact with other people. One of the best ways to teach them is to model this in your own behaviors, and then narrate for the child what you are doing and why. Become a play-by-play announcer: "I am going to the sink to wash my hands before dinner because…" or "I take the soap and put it on my hands like this…." Children see, hear, and imitate.
In addition to modeling, you can "coach" maltreated children as they play with other children. Use a similar play-by-play approach: "Well, when you take that from someone, they probably feel pretty upset; so if you want them to have fun when you play this game, then you should try…" By more effectively playing with other children, they will develop some improved self-esteem and confidence. Over time, success with other children will make the child less socially awkward and aggressive. Maltreated children are often "a mess" because of their delayed socialization. If the child is teased because of their clothes or grooming, it would be helpful to have "cool" clothes and improved hygiene.
Maltreated children have problems with modulating appropriate physical contact. They don't know when to hug, how close to stand, when to establish or break eye contact, what are appropriate contexts to wipe their nose, touch their genitals, or do other grooming behaviors.
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. . .
= = = =
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/attachment.htm (http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/attachment.htm)
ATTACHMENT: The First Core Strength
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The first and most important of all relationships are attachment bonds. Initially, these are created through interactions with our primary caregivers, usually parents. First relationships help define our capacity for attachment and set the tone for all of our future relationships.
What Is Attachment?
Attachment is the capacity to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. An attachment bond has unique properties. The capacity to create these special relationships begins in early childhood.
Unique Features of an Attachment Bond
Enduring form of a bond with a "special" person
Involves soothing, comfort, and pleasure
Loss or threat of loss of the special person evokes intense distress
There is security and safety in context of this relationship
At birth, a baby is essentially emotionally "unattached." Despite the obvious physical connection of the umbilical cord, the newborn does not yet have strong connections to another human. During infancy and early childhood, one form of attachment-socio-emotional-begins to replace the original physical attachment of the cord. As dependent as ever, a baby requires constant attention and care from another human being in order to survive. Calories and a "bath" of physical sensations-sight, sounds, smells, touch, and taste-help the infant survive and grow to meet her potential. This "somatosensory" bath from a loving caregiver-the rocking, hugs, coos, and smiles-is transformed by the infant's sensory systems into patterned neuronal activity that influences the development of the brain in positive ways. It is in this dependent relationship between the primary caregivers and the infant that the new form of attachment grows. This attachment-the emotional relationship-is not as easy to see or document, yet it is nonetheless as important for human development as the umbilical cord is in utero.
It is these experiences of infancy and early childhood that create the roots of attachment-the capacity to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. Except in the most extreme cases we are all born with the genetic capability to form and maintain healthy emotional relationships. When the infant has attentive, responsive, and loving caregiving, this genetic potential is expressed. And as this infant becomes a toddler and more people-family, friends, peers-enter his life, he will continue to develop this capacity to have healthy and strong emotional relationships.
Attachment and Pleasure
Our brain is designed to promote relationships. Specific parts of the human brain respond to emotional cues (such as facial expressions, touch, scent) and, more important, allow us to get pleasure from positive human interactions. The systems in the brain that mediate pleasure appear to be closely connected to the systems that mediate emotional relationships. Indeed this inter-relationship-the capacity to get pleasure from other people-creates a major positive learning tool of infancy and childhood. Young children want to please their teachers. They model adults and children they admire.
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. . .
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@Smokin Joe,
Well, it is sort of the old 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' thing. Where I am deductive, she is intuitive. That doesn't bother either of us, and it provides a check system. When we don't come to the same conclusion by different routes, then the subject is down for further study and discussion by both of us. It is phenomenal how often we come to the same conclusion.
Had I been better at picking up on those cues as a young single man, it is likely I would have taken advantage of that for nefarious ends. It is just as well I was not ordinarily attuned. Often a couple of days later I would realize "Oh, that's what she meant." and note a missed opportunity. While they were not all missed, perhaps it is just as well most were, it made my life much less complicated.
Consider, though, in traditional male=provider, protector, hunter cultures, women being able to read subtle cues (and manipulate men) led to success and progeny. Not being able to do so often led to failure. There have been untold generations reinforcing those traits in women, just as the traits in men (hunter, fighter, provider) have been reinforced the same way.
Rewriting human cultural history goes contrary to human nature, as it has been for millennia.
That isn't going to work well, and causes a serious disruption in the way humans interact because it goes against basic behavioural instinct.
When is influence merely influence and not manipulation?
I have gotten weary over the years of the whine about manipulation--though it IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM--chronic in sick relationships.
I don't think healthy motivated influence needs to be labeled manipulation. I can suggest, offer, explain, try and sell an idea, choice, action to the best of my ability and it still be healthy as long as I respect the other person's freedom and right to refuse to buy-into my construction on reality.
When influence becomes underhanded, relentless, ruthless, demanding etc. then I'd certainly call it manipulation and in need of being shut down fast . . . or ignored and walked away from.
I think it's wonderful the way healthy couples can typically come to the same choices and conclusions by different male/female routes.
Intuition is evidently particular sorts of brains (more feminine, it turns out) key-in on tiny subtle details in a given situation . . . and arrive at a holistic conclusion, description, analysis etc. almost seemingly by magic. Such brains simply take in tons of tiny bits of information and combine that evidence in a way that makes sense--the better ones seem to do it very quickly and very accurately.
Now, some of the conclusions some female brains jump to therefrom are NOT accurate and come more from their Attachment Disorder than wisdom--but that's another issue.
And, it sounds like neither of you have an overbearing compulsion to WIN in such discussions vs simply arrive at the best choice or conclusion. CONGRATS.
That is too rare in our era.
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Manipulation doesn't necessarily involve skill, only a relative shortage of women.
Where there are significantly more women than men, then the skill sets (and claws) come out.
@Smokin Joe
Oh, it involves skill, trust me---in varying degrees from the women who possess it. The manipulation can be very subtle.
Dr. Laura used to say that men are easy, and she was right. That's not a condescension, but an observation that men, God bless em, really don't want a lot of complicated things. Women who are clued in to their desires and wants can really work it, if they want to.
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Just heard on the radio...women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.
:laugh:
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all I want in a woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EHA_pPgjws
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@Smokin Joe
Oh, it involves skill, trust me---in varying degrees from the women who possess it. The manipulation can be very subtle.
Dr. Laura used to say that men are easy, and she was right. That's not a condescension, but an observation that men, God bless em, really don't want a lot of complicated things. Women who are clued in to their desires and wants can really work it, if they want to.
Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.
(http://etherealmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/man-woman-knon.jpeg)
Don't misunderstand, please. I'm not saying there aren't some incredibly skilled manipulators out there. There definitely are, and quite a few, who learned at their mother's knee who learned at her mother's knee, etc. and for the unsuspecting fellow, they're the ant lion trap of relationships. Pure emotional quicksand that looked like a cool drink of water, so the thirsty sucker dives in headfirst.
But when there are very few available women in ratio to the available men (think boom town, and I have been through a couple of oil booms where the ratio goes to three or more available guys to gals, not counting the married and on the road types who mess around) the only women who really need those skills are going after 'high value targets'--guys with looks, substantial money, or power (or all three).
That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.
It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.
Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.
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Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.
[snip]
That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.
It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.
Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.
Well put.
Insecurities drive a lot of control freak stuff . . . arising, of course, out of RAD.
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I wish my apartment allowed puppies. Unconditional love, and daily exercise.
I wonder if you could volunteer to take trained dogs to old folks' homes and hospitals?
Hugs,
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Yes, guys like it simple and straightforward.
(http://etherealmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/man-woman-knon.jpeg)
Don't misunderstand, please. I'm not saying there aren't some incredibly skilled manipulators out there. There definitely are, and quite a few, who learned at their mother's knee who learned at her mother's knee, etc. and for the unsuspecting fellow, they're the ant lion trap of relationships. Pure emotional quicksand that looked like a cool drink of water, so the thirsty sucker dives in headfirst.
But when there are very few available women in ratio to the available men (think boom town, and I have been through a couple of oil booms where the ratio goes to three or more available guys to gals, not counting the married and on the road types who mess around) the only women who really need those skills are going after 'high value targets'--guys with looks, substantial money, or power (or all three).
That isn't saying games don't get played both ways, but for the most part, in that situation there is a lot of low hanging fruit for the ladies to pick from, little manipulation necessary unless they're after the same guy. In that environment, money is relatively plentiful, and budgets are not tight, so a wiggle and a smile might get an attractive gal a long ways.
It is when the boom busts and things go the other way economically that manipulation fails at the previous skill level, often resulting in frustration and sometimes the collapse of the relationship.
Manipulation, though, is commonly just a control device, and often a sign of insecurity. Most guys will be manipulated to a point, some more than others, some only as much as they want to be (quid pro quo, after all). The savvy ones just shake their head and walk away if they aren't in for the game.
@Smokin Joe
I do see your points, and they're good ones. Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature. A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.
My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering. We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?" The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.
Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.
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Well put.
Insecurities drive a lot of control freak stuff . . . arising, of course, out of RAD.
@Quix
I was't describing "control freak stuff" based in mental illness. See my last post.
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@Smokin Joe
I do see your points, and they're good ones. Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature. A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.
My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering. We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?" The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.
Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.
I don't know that one needs to split hairs about what is and is not a mental illness in terms of control freak manipulations.
Mental health is a continuum like many things.
It's only a matter of degree.
I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism. It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.
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Just heard on the radio...women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it.
:laugh:
Real men understand how to express it as a loving compliment. :smokin:
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I don't know that one needs to split hairs about what is and is not a mental illness in terms of control freak manipulations.
Mental health is a continuum like many things.
It's only a matter of degree.
I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism. It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.
@Quix
Really?
A woman using her feminine wiles, so to speak, to attract a man is all of that?
Okay then.
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@Quix
Really?
A woman using her feminine wiles, so to speak, to attract a man is all of that?
Okay then.
Let me try again . . .
Mental health is a continuum like many things.
It's only a matter of degree.
I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism.
Insecurities range in a continuum from barely any to a near totally consuming insecurity.
It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.
= = =
I think the same sort of behaviors COULD originate out of merely a healthy desire to connect OR an insecurity based control-freak manipulation.
It would depend on the attitude of the heart . . . the motives driving the behavior . . . and how much of it was a compulsion and how much of it was merely a desire to connect vs an insecurity based DRIVENNESS and DESPERATE NEED to connect.
I don't see where your labeling my assertions as all one end of the spectrum fits what I'm trying to say, much at all.
Perhaps the key issue in such situations would be whether the woman (or man, for that matter) was prone to or COULD or TENDED TO
make efforts to connect that were open-handed. i.e. Did they make their initiated behaviors attractive but not compulsory?
Did she bat her eyelashes alluringly but not DEMANDINGLY?
Did she let it be however it was whether he jumped with tongue hanging out to her attraction efforts or not . . . with her remaining pleasant and confident regardless of his responses?
Or, did she get huffy and punish him for not being a proper love-struck puppy dog groveling at her feet?
One would be a compulsive manipulation based on insecurities and one would not--though the behaviors were mostly the same--except for very subtle undercurrents accordingly.
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@Smokin Joe
I do see your points, and they're good ones. Manipulation can be a sign of insecurity, and it's certainly a control device, but I'm talking about the kind of game that takes place when a woman has zeroed in on a man and decides she wants him to notice her...not anything that's malicious or negative in nature. A lot of the time, the man won't even know it's happening.
My husband, his sister and her husband, and I have watched that very thing happening in a social gathering. We females looked at each other and nodded..."Did you see that?" The two men didn't see anything going on...it went right over their heads.
Maybe it goes all the way back to the Garden.
It's funny, but as you get older, more is revealed to you. I have seen that 'flash', even in a baby who looked at a waiter, got red in the face and completely changed her demeanor, cooing and wanting to go to him (reaching out to be held). She couldn't talk yet, but she knew what she liked.
In older girls/women, I have seen ladies go 'on the hunt'. Some guys are oblivious to the idea, but if a woman decides she wants a particular man, she will zero in on him and from a (safe) distance, it is obvious to someone watching. The target is often oblivious.
And no, it isn't always malicious, sometimes it is just Le Sacre du printemps.
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Mental health is a continuum like many things.
It's only a matter of degree.
Mental health is a little like global warming. First you have to figure out what the temperature should be. If you can't define "normal", you can't define abnormal, except for the really pointy ends of the bell curve.
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It's funny, but as you get older, more is revealed to you. I have seen that 'flash', even in a baby who looked at a waiter, got red in the face and completely changed her demeanor, cooing and wanting to go to him (reaching out to be held). She couldn't talk yet, but she knew what she liked.
In older girls/women, I have seen ladies go 'on the hunt'. Some guys are oblivious to the idea, but if a woman decides she wants a particular man, she will zero in on him and from a (safe) distance, it is obvious to someone watching. The target is often oblivious.
And no, it isn't always malicious, sometimes it is just Le Sacre du printemps.
Quite so.
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Mental health is a little like global warming. First you have to figure out what the temperature should be. If you can't define "normal", you can't define abnormal, except for the really pointy ends of the bell curve.
The study summarizing many dozens of studies more than 40 years ago . . . of what was the main thing that resulted in effective functioning adults had this definition of successful adulthood:
1. Stable job
2. Stable marriage
3. No trouble with the law
4. Not on welfare.
Certainly many people could fulfill those criteria and still be quite crazy.
BTW, The ONE THING that turned out to account for 80% of the factors resulting in success as adults was . . . drum roll . . . NOT whether the individual was loved by their parents . . . but whether the child FELT loved by the parents. Socioeconomic status, education, types of discipline etc. were all rather minor in discriminating between success and failure as an adult.
One definition of mental health is to be grounded in reality--whatever that is. LOL.
i.e. their perceptions, responses, conclusions are not outrageously askew from those of the average person.
But we could get into a book length discussion on what "normal" vs "abnormal" constituted.
Most folks have a round notion that serves fairly well in life most of the time.
Pastors turned out to be good at screening for schizophrenia about as well as most psychiatrists . . . in more than one study.
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Let me try again . . .
Mental health is a continuum like many things.
It's only a matter of degree.
I personally believe that any compulsion toward control freakism arises out of an insecurity . . . and the more serious the insecurity--the more serious the control freakism.
Insecurities range in a continuum from barely any to a near totally consuming insecurity.
It doesn't matter to me a lot where one puts the criteria for mental illness/not mental illness on such scores. At some level, it's all a "sick" way of relating, regardless.
= = =
I think the same sort of behaviors COULD originate out of merely a healthy desire to connect OR an insecurity based control-freak manipulation.
It would depend on the attitude of the heart . . . the motives driving the behavior . . . and how much of it was a compulsion and how much of it was merely a desire to connect vs an insecurity based DRIVENNESS and DESPERATE NEED to connect.
I don't see where your labeling my assertions as all one end of the spectrum fits what I'm trying to say, much at all.
Perhaps the key issue in such situations would be whether the woman (or man, for that matter) was prone to or COULD or TENDED TO
make efforts to connect that were open-handed. i.e. Did they make their initiated behaviors attractive but not compulsory?
Did she bat her eyelashes alluringly but not DEMANDINGLY?
Did she let it be however it was whether he jumped with tongue hanging out to her attraction efforts or not . . . with her remaining pleasant and confident regardless of his responses?
Or, did she get huffy and punish him for not being a proper love-struck puppy dog groveling at her feet?
One would be a compulsive manipulation based on insecurities and one would not--though the behaviors were mostly the same--except for very subtle undercurrents accordingly.
@Quix, you're trying to take common interaction between men and women and turn it into some kind of tortured, sinister scheme motivated by mental illness and emotional damage. Some things are just very simple.
I'd like to add that I've been trying to picture someone "batting her eyes demandingly" and I still haven't a clue what that would look like.
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It's funny, but as you get older, more is revealed to you. I have seen that 'flash', even in a baby who looked at a waiter, got red in the face and completely changed her demeanor, cooing and wanting to go to him (reaching out to be held). She couldn't talk yet, but she knew what she liked.
In older girls/women, I have seen ladies go 'on the hunt'. Some guys are oblivious to the idea, but if a woman decides she wants a particular man, she will zero in on him and from a (safe) distance, it is obvious to someone watching. The target is often oblivious.
And no, it isn't always malicious, sometimes it is just Le Sacre du printemps.
@Smokin Joe
Exactly. That was precisely what I was trying to express. :laugh:
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@Quix, you're trying to take common interaction between men and women and turn it into some kind of tortured, sinister scheme motivated by mental illness and emotional damage. Some things are just very simple.
I'd like to add that I've been trying to picture someone "batting her eyes demandingly" and I still haven't a clue what that would look like.
Sorry but I don't think I'm doing that at all.
I'm describing a range of motivations and a range of behaviors.
And sometimes the SEEMINGLY SAME BEHAVIORs CAN have very different motivations.
As to batting her eyes demandingly . . . LOL. That's an example.
How could one tell from the eyes batting alone that the woman was demanding out of desperate insecurity or merely intensely interested in getting a romance going. I don't think one could tell the difference from merely the eyes batting.
If you are trying to tell me that all women all the time are only interested in wonderful romance and never operating out of desperate insecurities as they seek to 'catch' their man . . . then I'll have to disagree and wonder what context your observations come from.
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Sorry but I don't think I'm doing that at all.
I'm describing a range of motivations and a range of behaviors.
And sometimes the SEEMINGLY SAME BEHAVIORs CAN have very different motivations.
As to batting her eyes demandingly . . . LOL. That's an example.
How could one tell from the eyes batting alone that the woman was demanding out of desperate insecurity or merely intensely interested in getting a romance going. I don't think one could tell the difference from merely the eyes batting.
If you are trying to tell me that all women all the time are only interested in wonderful romance and never operating out of desperate insecurities as they seek to 'catch' their man . . . then I'll have to disagree and wonder what context your observations come from.
@Quix if you think you can understand women you are crazy. :whistle:
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In older girls/women, I have seen ladies go 'on the hunt'. Some guys are oblivious to the idea, but if a woman decides she wants a particular man, she will zero in on him and from a (safe) distance, it is obvious to someone watching. The target is often oblivious.
Not just older women. Most relationships/first dates I have seen the woman took the initiative in various ways to kickstart things so to speak and kept the relationship moving forward if she wanted. 1/2 the married guys I know the woman really were the ones to make things happen...under the unsuspecting radar of the guy. The old saying "women pick men not the other way around" is so true. When a guy ask out a woman she has already decided yes or no and is 3 steps ahead of him planning what's next.
@Smokin Joe
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@Quix if you think you can understand women you are crazy. :whistle:
@Idaho_Cowboy
(http://media2.popsugar-assets.com/files/2015/01/24/272/n/1922398/342dfc0e71ac8726_tumblr_nipc2bOy971sj484uo6_250Ec8zUx.xxxlarge/i/When-she-lets-her-side-eye-slip.gif)
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Sorry but I don't think I'm doing that at all.
I'm describing a range of motivations and a range of behaviors.
And sometimes the SEEMINGLY SAME BEHAVIORs CAN have very different motivations.
As to batting her eyes demandingly . . . LOL. That's an example.
How could one tell from the eyes batting alone that the woman was demanding out of desperate insecurity or merely intensely interested in getting a romance going. I don't think one could tell the difference from merely the eyes batting.
If you are trying to tell me that all women all the time are only interested in wonderful romance and never operating out of desperate insecurities as they seek to 'catch' their man . . . then I'll have to disagree and wonder what context your observations come from.
Outside of a cheesy movie, I've never seen a woman bat her eyes at anyone. I've certainly never done it. People don't go around flapping their eyelashes.
Okay, so not everyone is perfectly adjusted, and women who are not flirt, too, is that what you're saying? But so what? The man she's flirting with might be just as batcrap crazy as she is. Maybe they'll be a perfect match.
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Not just older women. Most relationships/first dates I have seen the woman took the initiative in various ways to kickstart things so to speak and kept the relationship moving forward if she wanted. 1/2 the married guys I know the woman really were the ones to make things happen...under the unsuspecting radar of the guy. The old saying "women pick men not the other way around" is so true. When a guy ask out a woman she has already decided yes or no and is 3 steps ahead of him planning what's next.
@Smokin Joe
@mirraflake
Lol :laugh:
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Outside of a cheesy movie, I've never seen a woman bat her eyes at anyone. I've certainly never done it. People don't go around flapping their eyelashes.
Okay, so not everyone is perfectly adjusted, and women who are not flirt, too, is that what you're saying? But so what? The man she's flirting with might be just as batcrap crazy as she is. Maybe they'll be a perfect match.
What I noticed when dating back in the old days: if a woman was interested in me
Subtle touching my arm, when talking in a group of people staying with me after all others have left, long eye contact but never batting lashes, laughing at what you say even if corny or it came out wrong. Some if they really really like you for a while and you talk with them some get so nervous it appears they are about to cry, going out of their way to do things for you (I'll type your paper for you) , in HS or college if they work at a fast food place etc asking for a medium coke and they hand you a large and just smile.
@CatherineofAragon
@Quix
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What I noticed when dating back in the old days: if a woman was interested in me
Subtle touching my arm, when talking in a group of people staying with me after all others have left, long eye contact but never batting lashes, laughing at what you say even if corny or it came out wrong. Some if they really really like you for a while and you talk with them some get so nervous it appears they are about to cry, going out of their way to do things for you, in HS or college if they work at a fast food place etc asking for a medium coke and they hand you a large and just smile.
@CatherineofAragon
@Quix
@mirraflake
Very good...you were observant.
I say this with great affection for men: if the guy is interested, he'll fall like a domino. But if he isn't, no amount of chasing after him is going to force his interest. Women would save themselves a lot of anguish, IMO, if they could learn that lesson.
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@Quix if you think you can understand women you are crazy. :whistle:
I like to think I'm not that grandiose or presumptuous.
Though . . . on the other side of the coin, I've lost track of how many women have said I understood them better than any other man they'd ever met.
LOLOL.
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Not just older women. Most relationships/first dates I have seen the woman took the initiative in various ways to kickstart things so to speak and kept the relationship moving forward if she wanted. 1/2 the married guys I know the woman really were the ones to make things happen...under the unsuspecting radar of the guy. The old saying "women pick men not the other way around" is so true. When a guy ask out a woman she has already decided yes or no and is 3 steps ahead of him planning what's next.
@Smokin Joe
imho, There's plenty of truth in those points.
Thanks.
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@Idaho_Cowboy
(http://media2.popsugar-assets.com/files/2015/01/24/272/n/1922398/342dfc0e71ac8726_tumblr_nipc2bOy971sj484uo6_250Ec8zUx.xxxlarge/i/When-she-lets-her-side-eye-slip.gif)
I see you found a 'batting eyes' gif! LOLOL.
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Outside of a cheesy movie, I've never seen a woman bat her eyes at anyone. I've certainly never done it. People don't go around flapping their eyelashes.
I have. I don't know what percentage, but I've seen it . . . both more or less constructively inviting a healthy relationship and seductively as the spider to the fly.
Okay, so not everyone is perfectly adjusted, and women who are not flirt, too, is that what you're saying?
Yes. I was ONLY talking about those women who operated out of a huge deficit of insecurity, RAD fostered control-freakism and manipulation to try and force things to happen with a targeted individual.
But so what? The man she's flirting with might be just as batcrap crazy as she is. Maybe they'll be a perfect match.
There's plenty of that, alright . . . with tons of rather sick co-dependent relationships to show for it.
However, it would be better for both of them to work most of their carp through before getting bonded and then have a much healthier relationship with a better prognosis for it enduring long term.
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What I noticed when dating back in the old days: if a woman was interested in me
Subtle touching my arm, when talking in a group of people staying with me after all others have left, long eye contact but never batting lashes, laughing at what you say even if corny or it came out wrong. Some if they really really like you for a while and you talk with them some get so nervous it appears they are about to cry, going out of their way to do things for you (I'll type your paper for you) , in HS or college if they work at a fast food place etc asking for a medium coke and they hand you a large and just smile.
@CatherineofAragon
@Quix
Have seen a fair amount of that . . . though I think it's rarer than some seem to think.
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@mirraflake
Very good...you were observant.
I say this with great affection for men: if the guy is interested, he'll fall like a domino. But if he isn't, no amount of chasing after him is going to force his interest. Women would save themselves a lot of anguish, IMO, if they could learn that lesson.
I think healthy women either know that instinctively; learned it from Mom and/or Dad and operate accordingly.
Unhealthy women, not so much.
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Outside of a cheesy movie, I've never seen a woman bat her eyes at anyone. I've certainly never done it. People don't go around flapping their eyelashes.
Okay, so not everyone is perfectly adjusted, and women who are not flirt, too, is that what you're saying? But so what? The man she's flirting with might be just as batcrap crazy as she is. Maybe they'll be a perfect match.
I have, but it was sarcastic or as an obvious tease.
Flirting is harmless fun, egos get boosted, people get a laugh or feel a little better about themselves, so long as that is where it stops--and where it was intended to stop (by both parties). Usually that involves some degree of either friendship, or the expectation that the contact is superficial, momentary, and just in fun.
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I have, but it was sarcastic or as an obvious tease.
Flirting is harmless fun, egos get boosted, people get a laugh or feel a little better about themselves, so long as that is where it stops--and where it was intended to stop (by both parties). Usually that involves some degree of either friendship, or the expectation that the contact is superficial, momentary, and just in fun.
Agreed.
Though without maturity and discipline it can be a tricky slippery slope.
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I see you found a 'batting eyes' gif! LOLOL.
@Quix
Huh? She's rolling her eyes.
Go ahead, now tell me you've seen a woman do this. Maybe if she has something stuck behind her contacts, but otherwise...
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3fbefVOnZ1r09qudo1_500.gif)
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I have. I don't know what percentage, but I've seen it . . . both more or less constructively inviting a healthy relationship and seductively as the spider to the fly.
Yes. I was ONLY talking about those women who operated out of a huge deficit of insecurity, RAD fostered control-freakism and manipulation to try and force things to happen with a targeted individual.
There's plenty of that, alright . . . with tons of rather sick co-dependent relationships to show for it.
However, it would be better for both of them to work most of their carp through before getting bonded and then have a much healthier relationship with a better prognosis for it enduring long term.
@Quix
Well, sure. However, that certain benign manipulation women are able to exert over men has nothing to do with mental or emotional issues.
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I have, but it was sarcastic or as an obvious tease.
Flirting is harmless fun, egos get boosted, people get a laugh or feel a little better about themselves, so long as that is where it stops--and where it was intended to stop (by both parties). Usually that involves some degree of either friendship, or the expectation that the contact is superficial, momentary, and just in fun.
@Smokin Joe
Well, flirting isn't necessarily meant to be an end-all and be-all in itself, though. Many times, it's intended to lead to something more.
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Agreed.
Though without maturity and discipline it can be a tricky slippery slope.
@Quix
I'm beginning to think we should administer psychological testing before anyone comes into contact with a desirable member of the opposite sex. It's dangerous out there.
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@Quix
Huh? She's rolling her eyes.
Go ahead, now tell me you've seen a woman do this. Maybe if she has something stuck behind her contacts, but otherwise...
I think I already told you that I HAD seen such--more than once.
I didn't say it was terribly overwhelmingly common. But it's far from unheard of, in my experience, too.
I've been watching people closely since toddler-hood.
You are welcome to deny my experiences and observations, if you wish.
However, of the two of us, I suspect I'm more of an expert on my experiences, than you are.
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@Quix
Well, sure. However, that certain benign manipulation women are able to exert over men has nothing to do with mental or emotional issues.
Wellllllllllll, I've readily acknowledge that many women influence their men out of a benign motivation toward reasonable, admirable romantic goals routinely. I did that early in this exchange.
You seem to have an extremely hard time acknowledging that there are a LOT of women (and men, for that matter) out there who wholesale destructively, coercively, control-freakishly manipulate the person they are with out of horrendous attachment disorder in an effort to more or less force the other person to vainly try and fill the gaping holes, insecurities, hurts and wounds from the first 6-8 years of their lives.
I don't understand your insistence in seeing only one half of the picture and trying to insist that's the total picture.
And, I don't know that any of us are 100% free of any maladaptive carp from our younger years. I've observed relatively few high quality parents in my 70 years. Again, it's all relative and on a continuum.
I don't understand your seeming compulsion to cast it as all black or white and then say that only the white side is reality.
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@Quix
I'm beginning to think we should administer psychological testing before anyone comes into contact with a desirable member of the opposite sex. It's dangerous out there.
I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.
I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.
I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.
I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.
And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.
Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.
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I think I already told you that I HAD seen such--more than once.
I didn't say it was terribly overwhelmingly common. But it's far from unheard of, in my experience, too.
I've been watching people closely since toddler-hood.
You are welcome to deny my experiences and observations, if you wish.
However, of the two of us, I suspect I'm more of an expert on my experiences, than you are.
@Quix
Okay, well, no need to get defensive. I haven't seen it but I take you at your word that you have.
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@Quix
Wellllllllllll, I've readily acknowledge that many women influence their men out of a benign motivation toward reasonable, admirable romantic goals routinely. I did that early in this exchange.
You seem to have an extremely hard time acknowledging that there are a LOT of women (and men, for that matter) out there who wholesale destructively, coercively, control-freakishly manipulate the person they are with out of horrendous attachment disorder in an effort to more or less force the other person to vainly try and fill the gaping holes, insecurities, hurts and wounds from the first 6-8 years of their lives.
No, I don't. In fact, if you look at my previous posts, you'll see that I've pretty much acknowledged the existence of those types. But you and I are talking about different situations, different circumstances.
I don't understand your insistence in seeing only one half of the picture and trying to insist that's the total picture.
I'm not.
And, I don't know that any of us are 100% free of any maladaptive carp from our younger years. I've observed relatively few high quality parents in my 70 years. Again, it's all relative and on a continuum.
I'd agree with that...I think dysfunction exists in just about all families, to some degree or another.
I don't understand your seeming compulsion to cast it as all black or white and then say that only the white side is reality.
Lol, but I'm not.
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I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.
I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.
I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.
I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.
And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.
Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.
@Quix, well, I would disagree with the first sentence of your post. Neither my husband nor I went into our relationship trying to ferret out psychological clues about our relationships with our parents, and I know, at least in my husband's case, that he isn't ignorant or cluelessly stupid or whatever. Does anyone do that?
What we did do was get to know each other inside and out before we were married; we were together for two and a half years before we took our vows. We recently celebrated our twentieth anniversary, and we're going strong, thank God. So I would strongly advocate not jumping into marriage.
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@mirraflake
Very good...you were observant.
I say this with great affection for men: if the guy is interested, he'll fall like a domino. But if he isn't, no amount of chasing after him is going to force his interest. Women would save themselves a lot of anguish, IMO, if they could learn that lesson.
Never understood when men AND women keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went but learned quick zero interest in her. Not ugly but no attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call or ask me out.
I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on. I am a stubborn cuss.
I dated another women in college for 3 months and she dumped me for a better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.
@CatherineofAragon
@Quix
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I have. I don't know what percentage, but I've seen it . . . both more or less constructively inviting a healthy relationship and seductively as the spider to the fly.
Never seen a woman bat her eyelashes at me.
@Quix
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I've long been convinced that anyone seeking a marriage relationship who does NOT fairly thoroughly check out their prospective partner's relationship with their father--is ignorant, uninformed or cluelessly stupid.
I had a discussion with a great clinician colleague at the college. I asked him what percentage of the general population he thought had serious degrees of attachment disorder. He replied with the professional standard 20%.
I said I thought it was much higher--80% or more. Then we discussed our definitions of RAD. I said, I believed that anyone who had chronic, conflicted, troubled, aborted relationships in the home and at work must have significant, serious degrees of RAD. He agreed. Then he agreed with my 80% or more amount of RAD in the general population.
I just know that on 2 continents it's been at least that high as evidenced by my students. My class sizes have ranged from 25 to 75. I have observed more than 3,000 students. I can't think of a SINGLE CLASS where there was MORE than 1-3 students who demonstrated MINIMAL RAD.
And those classes would have likely been only 15-25% or so of all the classes. In ALL the other classes, every student showed evidence of serious RAD.
Soooooo, the short of that is . . . there's a LOT of women (and men) out there with built-in compulsions to manipulate their partners out of deep insecurities and less than constructive goals.
My wife is the 4th woman I seriously dated. Never seen bad relationships with any of their parents or tried to be manipulated other than wanting to be married and wanting kids. Never dated a dysfunctional women. Guess I was lucky. I never moved past the dating stage with the first three because I was adamant no kids and we moved on. My wife also never wanted kids so we were a good fit.
@Quix
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Okay, well, no need to get defensive. I haven't seen it but I take you at your word that you have.
Didn't mean to get defensive . . . just trying to state my case for my perspective in strong terms. Sorry.
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My wife is the 4th woman I seriously dated. Never seen bad relationships with any of their parents or tried to be manipulated other than wanting to be married and wanting kids. Never dated a dysfunctional women. Guess I was lucky. I never moved past the dating stage with the first three because I was adamant no kids and we moved on. My wife also never wanted kids so we were a good fit.
@Quix
CONGRATS.
Works for me.
I was firm on that issue, too. Didn't want to visit my family craziness to another generation.
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@Quix, well, I would disagree with the first sentence of your post. Neither my husband nor I went into our relationship trying to ferret out psychological clues about our relationships with our parents, and I know, at least in my husband's case, that he isn't ignorant or cluelessly stupid or whatever. Does anyone do that?
What we did do was get to know each other inside and out before we were married; we were together for two and a half years before we took our vows. We recently celebrated our twentieth anniversary, and we're going strong, thank God. So I would strongly advocate not jumping into marriage.
That paragraph was a bit hyperbolic. I just feel rather strongly about such issues. Maybe it shows. I was speaking rather generally vs all inclusively though I made it sound all inclusive. My error.
CERTAINLY there are OTHER ways to check out a potential mate . . . and there are some with horrible parenting who are gems of persons worthy and up to a lifelong commitment.
CERTAINLY I'd suggest doing as you did--getting to know one another inside and out, so to speak, rather thoroughly before a lifelong commitment.
I just know that as a GENERAL RULE, the issue of what quality of fathering an individual had bears a ton of predictive relevance to MOST future marriages.
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Never seen a woman bat her eyelashes at me.
@Quix
I don't recall if I saw them bat their eyes AT ME, or not. I just know I've seen it. LOL. I don't recall if it was more in China or here.
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Never understood when men AND women keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went but learned quick zero interest in her. Not ugly but no attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call or ask me out.
I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on. I am a stubborn cuss.
I dated another women in college for 3 months and she dumped me for a better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.
@CatherineofAragon
@Quix
Attraction is a complex issue.
Usually it has some component that's related to an opposite sex parent in terms of looks and/or personality--not across the board but one or more components--amazingly--even when the parents were not very good parents or persons.
In any case, who knows all the factors that go into a person's fantasies and expectations regarding a partner. When folks with a less than ideal background seize upon someone they think is attractive, they tend to load all their hopes and aspirations onto that person. That person is more or less seen as a knight in shining armor or some other variation of a savior carrying them off into a rainbow/Hallelujah Chorus future/sunset. And any hindrances to fulfilling that fantasy are ignored or considered the enemy.
It's not realistic or logical. But who said such things had much to do with reality or logic.
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@Quix
No, I don't. In fact, if you look at my previous posts, you'll see that I've pretty much acknowledged the existence of those types. But you and I are talking about different situations, different circumstances.
I'm not.
I'd agree with that...I think dysfunction exists in just about all families, to some degree or another.
Lol, but I'm not.
OK. Thanks. Good to know, then.
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@Smokin Joe
Well, flirting isn't necessarily meant to be an end-all and be-all in itself, though. Many times, it's intended to lead to something more.
That depends on the intent of those involved. At its core, flirting is an invitation to 'notice me'. A guy can initiate it by doing so, or a woman by a look or action that gets attention.
In some situations, that's like fishing for compliments on her (or his) part, and in all honesty, it feels good to be noticed (playfully) by the opposite sex, even if you are attached. (The old 'still got it', without the complications of a deeper relationship).
One of the 'rotten' things we did in college was sit on the hill behind the student union in the spring with number cards. We called it the 'Out to Lunch Bunch Beauty Contest' and rated the young ladies in their spring finery. The lowest grades given were in the sevens, the highest depended on how many zeroes a guy could hold up after the one.
An observation: while a few were offended (or feigned offense), most perked up, stood a little taller, seemed a little brighter in their demeanor.
Everyone gets a boost from feeling attractive, and no more need come from the interaction than that. It usually leads to something more when someone is seriously (consciously or unconsciously) looking for more. Even that doesn't mean someone has to act on that, and it might just expose their dissatisfaction with the situation they are in. What they do about that is up to them, and if that situation does not involve a committed relationship, they can do something about it without hurting anyone. If it does involve a committed relationship, it might just expose what needs work, rather than be taken as an opportunity to cheat. It all depends on the people involved.
Most of it, from what I have seen, is lighthearted interaction without the intent of getting deeper, but then, I have never been one to 'get' hints, so maybe I missed something...
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That depends on the intent of those involved. At its core, flirting is an invitation to 'notice me'. A guy can initiate it by doing so, or a woman by a look or action that gets attention.
In some situations, that's like fishing for compliments on her (or his) part, and in all honesty, it feels good to be noticed (playfully) by the opposite sex, even if you are attached. (The old 'still got it', without the complications of a deeper relationship).
One of the 'rotten' things we did in college was sit on the hill behind the student union in the spring with number cards. We called it the 'Out to Lunch Bunch Beauty Contest' and rated the young ladies in their spring finery. The lowest grades given were in the sevens, the highest depended on how many zeroes a guy could hold up after the one.
An observation: while a few were offended (or feigned offense), most perked up, stood a little taller, seemed a little brighter in their demeanor.
Everyone gets a boost from feeling attractive, and no more need come from the interaction than that. It usually leads to something more when someone is seriously (consciously or unconsciously) looking for more. Even that doesn't mean someone has to act on that, and it might just expose their dissatisfaction with the situation they are in. What they do about that is up to them, and if that situation does not involve a committed relationship, they can do something about it without hurting anyone. If it does involve a committed relationship, it might just expose what needs work, rather than be taken as an opportunity to cheat. It all depends on the people involved.
Most of it, from what I have seen, is lighthearted interaction without the intent of getting deeper, but then, I have never been one to 'get' hints, so maybe I missed something...
Great points.
Thanks.
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Attraction is a complex issue.
Usually it has some component that's related to an opposite sex parent in terms of looks and/or personality--not across the board but one or more components--amazingly--even when the parents were not very good parents or persons.
In any case, who knows all the factors that go into a person's fantasies and expectations regarding a partner. When folks with a less than ideal background seize upon someone they think is attractive, they tend to load all their hopes and aspirations onto that person. That person is more or less seen as a knight in shining armor or some other variation of a savior carrying them off into a rainbow/Hallelujah Chorus future/sunset. And any hindrances to fulfilling that fantasy are ignored or considered the enemy.
It's not realistic or logical. But who said such things had much to do with reality or logic.
I think we're dealing with something that goes right back to day one. For an infant, the love of the mother is essential to being nurtured. Getting the father to commit to that level of love for his children is something that for that little bundle of joy is not as guaranteed--there is no 'womb time' with daddy, and there isn't the intimacy of having been inside through development, so the infant has to gain that commitment of support, emotionally, from dad, by other means. Girl babies have a lot of the same actions seen in an adult flirting, only they are hardwired in. For all I know, male offspring do the same with their mothers (and other women), cementing that support vector in place, but 'earn' dad's support. Little girls manipulate it with a look, a cry, reaching out (literally, to be held), a smile (yes, even without teeth), but they succeed (or not) in winning dad's commitment to support them (love) by what my wife calls 'breaking dad's heart', gaining his sympathy and desire to nurture them if it is not already present.
Mothers are complicit in this, they will manipulate dads into situations where that bond will be cemented--after all, it increases their security with the 'provider' in what has been classical Western society if the father thinks of the kids, too.
Perhaps the failure of that father/child relationship to be cemented, whether for personal or cultural reasons contributes to problems later on. It certainly seems to be the case where that relationship isn't strong or well developed that individual and social problems arise, exacerbated by absent (could be gone from day one or just preoccupied) parent(s) or divorce.
One of the most damaging things of the economic and social shifts of the Carter years was the inflation that created a near need for two income families. When kids who once came home to mom after school start wearing the latchkey and get left on their own, trouble brews. Add to that the relative ease with which a marriage could be dissolved, and the kids certainly had all sorts of opportunities to suffer emotional damage.
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@mirraflake
Never understood when men AND women keep going after someone when clearly that person has zero interest. Have some self respect. Had a woman in college who was infatuated with me. She asked me out to her sorority dance, I went but learned quick zero interest in her. Not ugly but no attraction towards her. She chased me for at least a year, would stop by and see me all the time, call or ask me out.
Yes, and that can be a huge turn-off, so the pursuer is having the opposite effect of the one she/he is after.
I've asked women out and if they said no never asked them again and moved on. I am a stubborn cuss.
My husband was the same way.
I dated another women in college for 3 months and she dumped me for a better catch. She was in the same sorority as my brothers wife. My SIL sees her every so often at Alumni functions and she always ask about me, what I am doing. A few years back she told my SIL she regrets dumping me to this day. I felt good about that.
Lol
I have a similar story...sort of. A guy I dated dumped me and married someone else. A few years later, I ran into him and we chatted a little. He started complaining about his wife, telling me he didn't think he made the right decision marrying her, etc. Then he told me I looked really, really good. Uh-huh.
I was acquainted with his wife to some degree, and I felt bad for her. Going behind her back and giving me that line was a lousy thing to do.
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That paragraph was a bit hyperbolic. I just feel rather strongly about such issues. Maybe it shows. I was speaking rather generally vs all inclusively though I made it sound all inclusive. My error.
CERTAINLY there are OTHER ways to check out a potential mate . . . and there are some with horrible parenting who are gems of persons worthy and up to a lifelong commitment.
CERTAINLY I'd suggest doing as you did--getting to know one another inside and out, so to speak, rather thoroughly before a lifelong commitment.
I just know that as a GENERAL RULE, the issue of what quality of fathering an individual had bears a ton of predictive relevance to MOST future marriages.
@Quix
Well, my husband had a father who started out just fine. Then the marriage broke up and he found another wife, complete with her own sons. He adopted those boys as his own and cut off all contact with my husband and his siblings, as though they were somehow at fault. Then my mother--in-law remarried a man with a hot temper who used to throw tools at my ten year old future husband. Verbal abuse was routine.
That man is the only father-in-law I've ever known. He's a different person now, and he and his stepchildren have made peace and even have great affection for one another. I love him very much myself, but he's still a strong-willed alpha type, and I don't take stuff off him when he tries to dish it out. He likes to see if he can push buttons and irritate people. If he can, you won't see peace. If you stand up to him, he respects it, he laughs, and he's a lot of fun from there on out.
My husband says he had a pattern laid out for him of what not to do and what not to be. He was determined not to let his childhood affect him that way.
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@Quix
Well, my husband had a father who started out just fine. Then the marriage broke up and he found another wife, complete with her own sons. He adopted those boys as his own and cut off all contact with my husband and his siblings, as though they were somehow at fault. Then my mother--in-law remarried a man with a hot temper who used to throw tools at my ten year old future husband. Verbal abuse was routine.
That man is the only father-in-law I've ever known. He's a different person now, and he and his stepchildren have made peace and even have great affection for one another. I love him very much myself, but he's still a strong-willed alpha type, and I don't take stuff off him when he tries to dish it out. He likes to see if he can push buttons and irritate people. If he can, you won't see peace. If you stand up to him, he respects it, he laughs, and he's a lot of fun from there on out.
My husband says he had a pattern laid out for him of what not to do and what not to be. He was determined not to let his childhood affect him that way.
WOW.
CONGRATS on hubby's resilience, and effective resolve . . . and turning out so well. Yea!
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I think we're dealing with something that goes right back to day one. For an infant, the love of the mother is essential to being nurtured. Getting the father to commit to that level of love for his children is something that for that little bundle of joy is not as guaranteed--there is no 'womb time' with daddy, and there isn't the intimacy of having been inside through development, so the infant has to gain that commitment of support, emotionally, from dad, by other means. Girl babies have a lot of the same actions seen in an adult flirting, only they are hardwired in. For all I know, male offspring do the same with their mothers (and other women), cementing that support vector in place, but 'earn' dad's support. Little girls manipulate it with a look, a cry, reaching out (literally, to be held), a smile (yes, even without teeth), but they succeed (or not) in winning dad's commitment to support them (love) by what my wife calls 'breaking dad's heart', gaining his sympathy and desire to nurture them if it is not already present.
Mothers are complicit in this, they will manipulate dads into situations where that bond will be cemented--after all, it increases their security with the 'provider' in what has been classical Western society if the father thinks of the kids, too.
Perhaps the failure of that father/child relationship to be cemented, whether for personal or cultural reasons contributes to problems later on. It certainly seems to be the case where that relationship isn't strong or well developed that individual and social problems arise, exacerbated by absent (could be gone from day one or just preoccupied) parent(s) or divorce.
One of the most damaging things of the economic and social shifts of the Carter years was the inflation that created a near need for two income families. When kids who once came home to mom after school start wearing the latchkey and get left on their own, trouble brews. Add to that the relative ease with which a marriage could be dissolved, and the kids certainly had all sorts of opportunities to suffer emotional damage.
Great points.
I agree.
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WOW.
CONGRATS on hubby's resilience, and effective resolve . . . and turning out so well. Yea!
@Quix
Thank you, Quix. He's just very grounded in reason...he watched and made observations.
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Women also need to know that it's our job to hold men to certain standards. That's missing in our culture today. I could never be on the current dating scene. It's all about hookups. There is truth in the saying about a man not buying a cow if she gives away free milk.
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@Quix
Thank you, Quix. He's just very grounded in reason...he watched and made observations.
Wonderful.
I assume he realizes he's one in 10,000 or so to be that sharp, wise and doggedly resilient in the face of such carp.