The Briefing Room
General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: mystery-ak on August 03, 2020, 02:33:40 pm
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August 3, 2020
The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
By Dale A. Fitzgibbons
It is August, 2020, now seventy-five years since the end of America's World War II hostilities with the nation then known as the Empire of Japan. August 6 and 9 are the historic anniversary dates of the first and only use of nuclear weapons in warfare. In the ensuing three quarters of a century, the attacks of 1945 on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki — their usefulness and their rectitude — have been the subject of vigorous debate over their military, scientific, political, historic, and moral significance.
Schools of thought regarding yes-or-no justification generally break down as follows:
Yes. The European and Pacific wars were already too costly in lives and property. A quick end was mandatory.
No. The European war was already over, and the Pacific conflict was winding down. The Soviet Union, free from battling Germany, was soon to engage in hostile action against Japan.
Yes. There were no good options. This was the least bad alternative.
more
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/08/the_atomic_attacks_on_japan_justified_or_not.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/08/the_atomic_attacks_on_japan_justified_or_not.html)
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I know it is a widely speculative number, but I have heard numbers like 50K-250K allied deaths had there been an invasion, and at least 2 to 3X that of Japanese.
So, I go on the side of justified.
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I'm biased. I'd never have been born in the first place, Dad was in the Pacific Theater and would have been one of the first casualties, no matter how many the bean-counters say would have been.
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I'm biased. I'd never have been born in the first place, Dad was in the Pacific Theater and would have been one of the first casualties, no matter how many the bean-counters say would have been.
Same here. Hell yes it was justified and necessary!
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Same here. Hell yes it was justified and necessary!
Truman knew that if the public ever found out he had a weapon that could end it all, but didn't use it because he wanted to spare Japanese lives, he'd have been Impeached the day word got out. This was before "Impeachment Mania."
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I know it is a widely speculative number, but I have heard numbers like 50K-250K allied deaths had there been an invasion, and at least 2 to 3X that of Japanese.
So, I go on the side of justified.
An invasion of Japan would've been the Okinawa campaign x 100, and US moral was being stretched taut on Okinawa. We could've done it, but it would've been horrific even by Pacific war standards.
Its interesting to note the war was dragging on so long and the casualties were so high that there was even beginning to be political pressure at home to find some way, any way to end hostilities.
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The USSR was about to invade. Japan should be grateful the war ended soon and left them with a unified country.
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The USSR was about to invade. Japan should be grateful the war ended soon and left them with a unified country.
And after Hiroshima they did, rolling over the already defeated Kwangtung Army in Manchuria.
For that Uncle Joe wanted Hokkaido. Thank goodness FDR was already dead, they would've gotten it.
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And after Hiroshima they did, rolling over the already defeated Kwangtung Army in Manchuria.
For that Uncle Joe wanted Hokkaido. Thank goodness FDR was already dead, they would've gotten it.
:amen:
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"The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?"
Yes.
Of course they were.
Do you have any another questions...?
Aside:
We should have KEPT ON USING atomic bombs on North Korea and China to stop Mao's Korean war. It was never really under control of Kim il Sung. Mao was the driving force from its beginning until he ordered it to be brought to an end after Stalin died.
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For that Uncle Joe wanted Hokkaido. Thank goodness FDR was already dead, they would've gotten it.
You got that right. They would have also gotten Austria, Greece, and Finland.
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And why does this question keep coming up? Retribution $$.....
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It is a whole lot easier to question whether some previous generation's lives were worth losing to defeat the Japanese without the bomb. It is something else all together when it is your life or your families lives on the line....
As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved. They were the aggressor.
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UFO activity involving our military increased dramatically after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Foo fighters in Vietnam. Actually engaging in 'battle'. They don't want humans to have ultimate control over them. Thus, they're display of shutting down and/or powering up the silos...to show us they can squash us like bugs.
So, in the eyes of Subterranean Intelligence, (they're been here on earth longer than we have) no they were not justified.
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Japan initiated the war at Pearl Harbor.
As war progressed, Japan became increasingly forced backward after
losing island after island, in addition to several Naval encounters.
After 4 years, Japan's military sensed defeat but refused to accept it;
believing surrender dishonorable.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were appropriate, inevitable and of their decision.
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"The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?"
Yes.
Of course they were.
Do you have any another questions...?
Aside:
We should have KEPT ON USING atomic bombs on North Korea and China to stop Mao's Korean war. It was never really under control of Kim il Sung. Mao was the driving force from its beginning until he ordered it to be brought to an end after Stalin died.
IIRC, LeMay brought that up when the ChiComs were massing across the Yalu. Likely it would have saved my dad at least one of his Purple Hearts.
And on topic, yes, whatever means were necessary to end the war quickly. Likely millions of lives were saved by using them, and it was a level of force that could not be denied, god emperor or no.
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"The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?"
Yes.
Of course they were.
Do you have any another questions...?
Aside:
We should have KEPT ON USING atomic bombs on North Korea and China to stop Mao's Korean war. It was never really under control of Kim il Sung. Mao was the driving force from its beginning until he ordered it to be brought to an end after Stalin died.
Agree. Once a US military person is killed in an act of war. Its game on, get it over with by the quickest method available, including nukes.
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Agree. Once a US military person is killed in an act of war. Its game on, get it over with by the quickest method available, including nukes.
"Shock and Awe" works.
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And why does this question keep coming up? Retribution $$.....
I can see the next dem president apologizing for it. This generation doesn't know anything about the 1940s, other than it was raaaaaaycist.
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Dropping the Ball on the Bomb by Alan J Levine
I subscribe to Chronicles a Magazine for American Culture. They have a similar article I read yesterday at lunch. I feel the article flawed and I found myself writing all over the magazine margins with corrections their editor should have made.
My scratching
George Marshall most respected? Really? Not by me.
Admiral Ernest King? Another loser who left our east coast venerable to German U Boats. Roosevelt selected King because he looked tough.
Unconditional surrender? A concept gift from Joe Stalin so he could be there for the spoils.
Consideration of enemy deaths? I am sure that high enemy combatants deaths were never a deterrent to our actions. American and Allies deaths were.
Dropping the bomb saved Truman. If the public would have discovered we had such weapons with development costs of over a billion, we would have been free of democrats for quite some time.
Mistake to drop the second bomb? We had only fissionable material for two bombs. Best to use them both at the start.
Claims that Eisenhower, LeMay, Arnold, Leahy and King opposed the bomb is conjecture. There are always claims of the dead supporting a writers view. It is a weak crutch.
George Marshall? Disregard anything Marshall and refer to the 50,000 word speech that Senator Joe McCarthy gave in the Senate. I have a copy of it.
We also dropped the bomb to deter Russia. What we didn't know was Stalin already had the secrets before Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes war is terrible. Using a new weapon and methods is always part of the equation and I am hopeful we have those new weapons at our fingertips and haven't fumbled them to foreign governments for kickbacks.
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Dropping the Ball on the Bomb by Alan J Levine
I subscribe to Chronicles a Magazine for American Culture. They have a similar article I read yesterday at lunch. I feel the article flawed and I found myself writing all over the magazine margins with corrections their editor should have made.
My scratching
George Marshall most respected? Really? Not by me.
Admiral Ernest King? Another loser who left our east coast venerable to German U Boats. Roosevelt selected King because he looked tough.
Unconditional surrender? A concept gift from Joe Stalin so he could be there for the spoils.
Consideration of enemy deaths? I am sure that high enemy combatants deaths were never a deterrent to our actions. American and Allies deaths were.
Dropping the bomb saved Truman. If the public would have discovered we had such weapons with development costs of over a billion, we would have been free of democrats for quite some time.
Mistake to drop the second bomb? We had only fissionable material for two bombs. Best to use them both at the start.
Claims that Eisenhower, LeMay, Arnold, Leahy and King opposed the bomb is conjecture. There are always claims of the dead supporting a writers view. It is a weak crutch.
George Marshall? Disregard anything Marshall and refer to the 50,000 word speech that Senator Joe McCarthy gave in the Senate. I have a copy of it.
We also dropped the bomb to deter Russia. What we didn't know was Stalin already had the secrets before Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes war is terrible. Using a new weapon and methods is always part of the equation and I am hopeful we have those new weapons at our fingertips and haven't fumbled them to foreign governments for kickbacks.
Looks like you and I are pretty much one the same page @Slide Rule and, as I'm quite sure you already know, Joesph McCarthy has been conclusively proven right about almost everything he said regarding Communist in our midst. Especially so in the Feral government bureaucracy.
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Looks like you and I are pretty much one the same page @Slide Rule and, as I'm quite sure you already know, Joseph McCarthy has been conclusively proven right about almost everything he said regarding Communist in our midst. Especially so in the Feral government bureaucracy.
Yep Gunner Joe was on target. Too bad an illness did him. I am sure he would have slayed all those around him. His 50,000 word Senate speech is all over Marshall. It made for a division with Eisenhower and as many know Eisenhower was the first Rino, otherwise Roosevelt would not have placed him in control of Europe.
I spoke with M Stanton Evans after he wrote Blacklisted By History at Hillsdale College years ago. He gave me nearly a day of his time answering every question I could think of. A great man and author.
I owe an apology to Chronicles after reading the remainder of the article. That I will do shortly.
Seems Chronicles largely agree with many of my points. There is a series of articles this month in Chronicles about the Bomb. After a multiple year lapse after cancelling National Review, Chronicles has replaced it. I have few disagreements with it, and recommend a subscription either paper or electronic. Being old, and liking to write in the margins correcting faulty thinking, I choose paper. I am still in the process of understanding their differences with the philosophy of Milton Friedman.
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I spoke with M Stanton Evans after he wrote Blacklisted By History at Hillsdale College years ago. He gave me nearly a day of his time answering every question I could think of. A great man and author.
That is fantastic @Slide Rule I would love to have been a party to that conversation.
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That is fantastic @Slide Rule I would love to have been a party to that conversation.
I would have loved to have had you there. It was exceptional. My friend Stan Marvin invited and paid for me to attend a Cold War Seminar which was a week long event. I can say it was the most interesting personal talk that I have ever had with a man of such historical intelligence. It is for me a very fond memory.
It started me focusing on not only history but politics. I was Conservative at the time, but now I like the term Extreme Right Wing Conservative. I embrace it.
Slide Rule
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My apology to Chronicles author Alan J Levine. That is what can happen when you respond after reading part of an article. Yes it is a rookie mistake.
Levine goes to our fascination of race and racism relating to the bomb. All these type arguements of applying what we know today should have affected those in the past to choose better options or at least options that an author predominately interested in race would have had them make. Those in the past made decisions based on events of their time. They didn't know that one of our political parties would do an about face with minorities and present themselves as supporting blacks while keeping them on the plantation. Many remain on the plantation and that accounts for their 90% voting support. This is common of the left in many of their positions. Apply today to the past and fault them for it.
It is one more thing that strives to place fear in the public's mind. Something we should atone for and pay reparations for. In short a political sound bite.
The article says "is it possible for our country to express profound sorrow over the atomic bombing in 1945. Without that way there is no possibility of finding a way to repudiate future use of nuclear weapons.." It turns out here is a direct way. Fear of our military power.
"The way in which many focus on the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as thought they were the sole Japanese civilians killed in the war, indicates their real motives. Their pity is not directed at the Japanese, but at themselves, for the danger which they imagine the atomic bombings of 1945 expose them to."
"There is little to be said for the latter misuse of the issue for political ends."
Quite a close and I agree with the author.
Slide Rule
:thumbsup:
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It is a whole lot easier to question whether some previous generation's lives were worth losing to defeat the Japanese without the bomb. It is something else all together when it is your life or your families lives on the line....
As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved. They were the aggressor.
"As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved."
Absolutely true. The numbers of people murdered by the Japanese army in China and other Asian countries rivals what the Nazis did. And the Germans treated Allied pows (apart from Russians) far better than the Japanese who deliberately tried to kill pows by starving them and many times simply killing them.
The warrior code of Bushido didn't allow for mercy towards captives.
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"As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved."
Absolutely true. The numbers of people murdered by the Japanese army in China and other Asian countries rivals what the Nazis did. And the Germans treated Allied pows (apart from Russians) far better than the Japanese who deliberately tried to kill pows by starving them and many times simply killing them.
The warrior code of Bushido didn't allow for mercy towards captives.
The War in the Pacific was truly a racist war in every respect. When people complain about racism here, they should move to Asia and find out what real racism is all about.
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The War in the Pacific was truly a racist war in every respect. When people complain about racism here, they should move to Asia and find out what real racism is all about.
As an example, if you were a redhead taken prisoner by the Japanese your chances of survival were next to nothing.
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Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.
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Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.
That is correct. They were both legitimate targets.
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Battleships Kirishima (eventually), Hyuga, and battleship Musashi were built in Nagasaki. Heavy cruisers Mikuma, Chokai, Haguro, Aoba, Furutaka, Tone, and Chikuma were built in Nagasaki. Three light cruisers and some destroyers were built in Nagasaki.
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Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.
Hiroshima was an army hub.
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Hiroshima was an army hub.
They were legitimate military targets, but even more were relatively untouched by the incendiary bombing campaigns that has seriously damaged other Japanese cities, killing an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 in Tokyo alone.
Since they were undamaged, relatively speaking, they were ideal tests for bomb damage assessment for the bomb as well as military targets.
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I know it is a widely speculative number, but I have heard numbers like 50K-250K allied deaths had there been an invasion, and at least 2 to 3X that of Japanese.
So, I go on the side of justified.
I've seen much higher casualty estimates for the never-launched Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands -- on the order of 2 million combat deaths on each side, plus about ten million Japanese civilians. I, too am on the justified side.
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Hiroshima was an army hub.
It was also home to POWs from the US, Britain, Australia, the Netherlands, Korea, etc.
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I've seen much higher casualty estimates for the never-launched Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands -- on the order of 2 million combat deaths on each side, plus about ten million Japanese civilians. I, too am on the justified side.
12M dead Japanese out of a population of about 72M? I know this is the home of the kamikazeI culture, but I think that percentage of death ( 1 in 6, 16%) seems a bit overstated. Even as scorched earth as our Civil War was, only 2 1/2% died.
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Battleships Kirishima (eventually), Hyuga, and battleship Musashi were built in Nagasaki. Heavy cruisers Mikuma, Chokai, Haguro, Aoba, Furutaka, Tone, and Chikuma were built in Nagasaki. Three light cruisers and some destroyers were built in Nagasaki.
Seven of those ten ships were at the Battle of Midway. The Mikuma was sunk.
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After 75 years, it’s time to for everyone to admit the Hiroshima atomic bombing saved millions of lives
By Thomas Lifson
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/after_75_years_its_time_to_for_everyone_to_admit_the_hiroshima_atomic_bombing_saved_millions_of_lives.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/after_75_years_its_time_to_for_everyone_to_admit_the_hiroshima_atomic_bombing_saved_millions_of_lives.html)
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75 Years Later, It’s Clear Truman Was Right To Drop The Atomic Bomb
https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/06/75-years-later-its-clear-truman-was-right-to-drop-the-atomic-bomb/
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Why the question? Do we get a do over?
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Our Annual August Debate Over the Bombs
Victor Davis Hanson
https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2020/08/06/our-annual-august-debate-over-the-bombs-n2573760
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The left will abandon their wailing that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "unjustified"... just after they admit that the Rosenbergs were guilty...
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The left will abandon their wailing that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "unjustified"... just after they admit that the Rosenbergs were guilty...
LOL. They're still carrying a torch for Sacco and Vanzetti.
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The doubt of those that question the dropping of the bombs on Japan is more idiocy.
I believe the numbers I read through the years reflected 1 million+ projected Allied casualties. From my perspective, given the choice between one USA soldier/sailor dying versus 1 million Japanese enemies, I vote for the 1 million Japanese enemies. Anything other than that is a reflection of our failure as a nation to understand the meaning of war.
Now for some facts not mentioned. Russia would not have participated in an all out attack on Japan, or at least no greater than the French participation in the landings of Normandy, which were token participation. Russia declared war on Japan for one primary reason. They knew that Japan had successfully tested a nuclear weapon in Korea, and they wanted to move in to the Korean peninsula and capture the documentation for that technology, which is exactly what they did. Anyone here doubt for one minute given the opportunity the Japanese would most certainly have used a nuclear device on the USA? If so, give your brain an enema, for it is not functioning!
Japan used bio weapons on the Chinese to test them for their ultimate use on the USA. The Japanese had designed an eight engine bomber that they planned to fly halfway across the USA and dump/blanket bio weapons on the western half of the USA. Again, anyone doubt for a minute the Japanese would have used these bio weapons on the USA if they just had more time. Had we not used nuclear weapons, they would have stalled long enough to make that a reality, which could have well changed the outcome of the war.
The USA made numerous overtures to the Japanese requesting their surrender. They ignored those requests. Ignored them. Therefore, Harry Truman had no choice in the matter. He made a wise decision, and it should never be questioned. And those that do question it should be told to shut the f*&^ up, for they are idiots.
My father was in the Navy, in the Pacific theater, driving a landing craft fighting the Japanese. He was at the battles of Saipan, Leyte, Luzon, Okinawa and a couple smaller actions on other islands. The death he witnessed if you know anything about these battles was significant. He refused my whole life to ever discuss it with me. He took all that knowledge to the grave in terms of the actual battles.
But I will tell you a funny story. He refused all MY life to ever say a word about the war to me, but one day, my son, his only grandson comes home from school and...
Son says, "Wasn't Grandpa in a war or something?"
Me... "Yes he was. He fought in WWII against the Japanese in the Pacific. He was in the Navy".
Son..."I have to do an audio interview of a war veteran as a school project. Do you think Grandpa would let me interview him about his experiences?"
Me..."You can call and ask him, but I have to tell you, all my life I asked him about his experiences during the war, and he adamantly refused to ever discuss it. So, if he tells you something like that, do not be disappointed, for he saw some gruesome things during the war, many men being killed before his eyes, etc, and I would be surprised if he would want to discuss it with you."
So, my son calls my father, and of course, you can imagine what he said without me telling you. My son told him about the assignment, and my father says, "Sure Neil, come on over and ask me anything." Ugggh!! I was happy for my son, but it bothered me that he never wanted to talk to me, his own son. I worshiped him, read every book on the shelf about WWII, and always wanted to know more.
As I mentioned, my son only needed audio, but I decided to film it on VHS, and strip out the audio later for his assignment. At the time, my father was diagnosed with metastasized lung cancer. He had a tumor in his esophogus, told he only had two months to live(he was 1.5 years into that 2 months, using shark cartilage to stay alive...another story), and he met my son about six months before his death with the promise to answer any of his questions.
So I sat down with my son, and told him, he is going to answer all your questions, and all of mine that I never got to ask when I was a kid. We listed out all the questions my son was to ask, and we went over one evening and sat down with my father, who lived only 4 miles away. I helped him structure the interview without questions regarding the blood and guts of it all, because I did not want to upset my father in his condition. My son was happy to avoid all that too at 11 or 12 years of age.
First question my son asks that has HUGE significance to me to this day. This interview happened the first half of 1995.
Son..."Grandpa, can you tell me if you recall, how you first heard about the attack of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese?"
Grandpa...[he was 16 years of age, living in Mt. Washington in Pittsburgh, for those of you that know Pittsburgh, and for those that don't, it is a high hill overlooking the downtown area of the City of Pittsburgh] [he chuckles] 'well, me and my buddies, we headed down the hill into the city that evening, and when we got in town, there were people running about and we were told that the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor. Now there were 6 or 7 of us, and we all looked at each other and said, where is Pearl Harbor?'
Not one of these boys had any idea where Pearl Harbor was. Flash forward to 9/11 and compare what was done on that day to the USA. For me, pick a number, 9/11 was 10x. 100x worse than December 7th, the Pearl Harbor attack. The Japanese attacked military targets in the hopes of knocking us out of the war with one blow, targets that had the ability to defend themselves, and on 9/11, it was civilian facilities that were attacked in our country. For me, many times worse than what the Japanese did. That is why I have such a strong dislike for George Bush and his tea and crumpets response to 9/11. Had I been POTUS, there would not have been need to spend one dime on Afghanistan, for I would have leveled it, and not lost a moment's sleep over it.
So, back to the bombs in Japan. These bombs being dropped brought a fast end to the war. It saved my father's life possibly from further risk in battle with the Japanese, and the lives of many others. Anyone that knows the mindset of the Japanese, they largely fought to the death with every island we took in the Pacific. A lot of Americans died in those battles. Even after we thought we had secured islands, the remaining Japanese would slip out of their caves and slit the throats of sleeping GIs, etc. The Japanese on their own mainland would have fought with great ferocity to defend their islands, killing many. There just wasn't another choice for Truman. NONE!!!
BTW, anyone that has doubts of just how murderous the Japanese were during the war, please read the book The Rape of Nanking. The Japanese were murderous, evil people. They lined up Chinese civilians and competed with one another to see how many they could kill with one bullet. They tore unborn babies from pregnant women and tossed the babies in the air to see who could impale them with their bayonets, they buried people partially in the ground and had dogs devour them alive while they watched and cheered. Believe me, the Germans during WWII with their atrocities were to use an Obama phrase, the JV team versus the Japanese and their penchant for murder and evil.
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The doubt of those that question the dropping of the bombs on Japan is more idiocy.
I believe the numbers I read through the years reflected 1 million+ projected Allied casualties. From my perspective, given the choice between one USA soldier/sailor dying versus 1 million Japanese enemies, I vote for the 1 million Japanese enemies. Anything other than that is a reflection of our failure as a nation to understand the meaning of war.
Now for some facts not mentioned. Russia would not have participated in an all out attack on Japan, or at least no greater than the French participation in the landings of Normandy, which were token participation. Russia declared war on Japan for one primary reason. They knew that Japan had successfully tested a nuclear weapon in Korea, and they wanted to move in to the Korean peninsula and capture the documentation for that technology, which is exactly what they did. Anyone here doubt for one minute given the opportunity the Japanese would most certainly have used a nuclear device on the USA? If so, give your brain an enema, for it is not functioning!
Japan used bio weapons on the Chinese to test them for their ultimate use on the USA. The Japanese had designed an eight engine bomber that they planned to fly halfway across the USA and dump/blanket bio weapons on the western half of the USA. Again, anyone doubt for a minute the Japanese would have used these bio weapons on the USA if they just had more time. Had we not used nuclear weapons, they would have stalled long enough to make that a reality, which could have well changed the outcome of the war.
The USA made numerous overtures to the Japanese requesting their surrender. They ignored those requests. Ignored them. Therefore, Harry Truman had no choice in the matter. He made a wise decision, and it should never be questioned. And those that do question it should be told to shut the f*&^ up, for they are idiots.
My father was in the Navy, in the Pacific theater, driving a landing craft fighting the Japanese. He was at the battles of Saipan, Leyte, Luzon, Okinawa and a couple smaller actions on other islands. The death he witnessed if you know anything about these battles was significant. He refused my whole life to ever discuss it with me. He took all that knowledge to the grave in terms of the actual battles.
But I will tell you a funny story. He refused all MY life to ever say a word about the war to me, but one day, my son, his only grandson comes home from school and...
Son says, "Wasn't Grandpa in a war or something?"
Me... "Yes he was. He fought in WWII against the Japanese in the Pacific. He was in the Navy".
Son..."I have to do an audio interview of a war veteran as a school project. Do you think Grandpa would let me interview him about his experiences?"
Me..."You can call and ask him, but I have to tell you, all my life I asked him about his experiences during the war, and he adamantly refused to ever discuss it. So, if he tells you something like that, do not be disappointed, for he saw some gruesome things during the war, many men being killed before his eyes, etc, and I would be surprised if he would want to discuss it with you."
So, my son calls my father, and of course, you can imagine what he said without me telling you. My son told him about the assignment, and my father says, "Sure Neil, come on over and ask me anything." Ugggh!! I was happy for my son, but it bothered me that he never wanted to talk to me, his own son. I worshiped him, read every book on the shelf about WWII, and always wanted to know more.
As I mentioned, my son only needed audio, but I decided to film it on VHS, and strip out the audio later for his assignment. At the time, my father was diagnosed with metastasized lung cancer. He had a tumor in his esophogus, told he only had two months to live(he was 1.5 years into that 2 months, using shark cartilage to stay alive...another story), and he met my son about six months before his death with the promise to answer any of his questions.
So I sat down with my son, and told him, he is going to answer all your questions, and all of mine that I never got to ask when I was a kid. We listed out all the questions my son was to ask, and we went over one evening and sat down with my father, who lived only 4 miles away. I helped him structure the interview without questions regarding the blood and guts of it all, because I did not want to upset my father in his condition. My son was happy to avoid all that too at 11 or 12 years of age.
First question my son asks that has HUGE significance to me to this day. This interview happened the first half of 1995.
Son..."Grandpa, can you tell me if you recall, how you first heard about the attack of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese?"
Grandpa...[he was 16 years of age, living in Mt. Washington in Pittsburgh, for those of you that know Pittsburgh, and for those that don't, it is a high hill overlooking the downtown area of the City of Pittsburgh] [he chuckles] 'well, me and my buddies, we headed down the hill into the city that evening, and when we got in town, there were people running about and we were told that the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor. Now there were 6 or 7 of us, and we all looked at each other and said, where is Pearl Harbor?'
Not one of these boys had any idea where Pearl Harbor was. Flash forward to 9/11 and compare what was done on that day to the USA. For me, pick a number, 9/11 was 10x. 100x worse than December 7th, the Pearl Harbor attack. The Japanese attacked military targets in the hopes of knocking us out of the war with one blow, targets that had the ability to defend themselves, and on 9/11, it was civilian facilities that were attacked in our country. For me, many times worse than what the Japanese did. That is why I have such a strong dislike for George Bush and his tea and crumpets response to 9/11. Had I been POTUS, there would not have been need to spend one dime on Afghanistan, for I would have leveled it, and not lost a moment's sleep over it.
So, back to the bombs in Japan. These bombs being dropped brought a fast end to the war. It saved my father's life possibly from further risk in battle with the Japanese, and the lives of many others. Anyone that knows the mindset of the Japanese, they largely fought to the death with every island we took in the Pacific. A lot of Americans died in those battles. Even after we thought we had secured islands, the remaining Japanese would slip out of their caves and slit the throats of sleeping GIs, etc. The Japanese on their own mainland would have fought with great ferocity to defend their islands, killing many. There just wasn't another choice for Truman. NONE!!!
BTW, anyone that has doubts of just how murderous the Japanese were during the war, please read the book The Rape of Nanking. The Japanese were murderous, evil people. They lined up Chinese civilians and competed with one another to see how many they could kill with one bullet. They tore unborn babies from pregnant women and tossed the babies in the air to see who could impale them with their bayonets, they buried people partially in the ground and had dogs devour them alive while they watched and cheered. Believe me, the Germans during WWII with their atrocities were to use an Obama phrase, the JV team versus the Japanese and their penchant for murder and evil.
@jafo2010 my father was a U.S. Marine in the South Pacific during WWII and I have three uncles who crossed the beach at Normandy (Only one of them on D-Day and he's the one who made it all the way to Berlin. The others were wounded and Medevaced out but all survived) From my earliest days, I recall those guys all winding up together at family gatherings or other social events talking among themselves. Of course, if any of us younguns got near them they would clam up until we moved on. That remained so until I got back from Vietnam and they began to allow me in at times.
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Our Annual August Debate Over the Bombs
Victor Davis Hanson
https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2020/08/06/our-annual-august-debate-over-the-bombs-n2573760
As we put time and distance between ourselves and the unimaginable suffering of WWII, not mentioning our ever-thinning skin, the annual self flagellation over the use of the atom bombs will only get worse.
I fully expect America will have surrendered to the Japanese before I go toes-up.
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As we put time and distance between ourselves and the unimaginable suffering of WWII, not mentioning our ever-thinning skin, the annual self flagellation over the use of the atom bombs will only get worse.
I fully expect America will have surrendered to the Japanese before I go toes-up.
If the Chinese don't steal it first.
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It was justified, for a whole slew of reasons. There are plenty of reasons to not like Harry Truman, this is NOT one of them.
We get this bullshit handwringing every August 6. I just tell folks, "I would not be here to be a pain in your ass but for this great call." I think others have mentioned upthread that our fathers were literally scheduled for first landings on the Main Island, after watching gruesome death in the island-hopping campaign across the South Pacific. It was horrible.
My father was Navy, on a landing craft, heading for Japan Main Island when the news came over SSB that the war was OVER. Done. this was a couple months after being horrified FDR died in Warm Springs. (I have been in the room where he had the cerebral hemorrhage while sitting for the "Unfinished Portrait.")
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Why the question? Do we get a do over?
And could the do over be in Portland?
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Our Annual August Debate Over the Bombs
And for what exactly?
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More people died in the taking of Saipan, a 45 sq. mi. island, than died in the Nagasaki blast.
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Well, it was justified on 12/7/1941
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More people died in the taking of Saipan, a 45 sq. mi. island, than died in the Nagasaki blast.
More than one hundred thousand Japanese died in a single air raid on Tokyo.
I don't think many people grasped the enormous extent of the total carnage from that war, and that the people who died in the atomic blasts represented only a small percentage of that total.
If we had invaded Japan with the consequent loss of at least one hundred thousand allied dead and many more wounded when we had the a-bomb, the citizens would have been justified in hanging Truman and the advisors who counseled against using the a-bomb.
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More than one hundred thousand Japanese died in a single air raid on Tokyo.
I don't think many people grasped the enormous extent of the total carnage from that war, and that the people who died in the atomic blasts represented only a small percentage of that total.
If we had invaded Japan with the consequent loss of at least one hundred thousand allied dead and many more wounded when we had the a-bomb, the citizens would have been justified in hanging Truman and the advisors who counseled against using the a-bomb.
Didn't it take 2 days and a second detonation to get Japan to surrender? How many lives would have been saved if Japan had not held out those 2 days?
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As an example, if you were a redhead taken prisoner by the Japanese your chances of survival were next to nothing.
I once knew a Japanese expate living here, and he share that people all axross Asia are racists.
Koreans were enslaved by "superior" Japs, in their view.
Generally Japs feel themselves to be above all others.
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And for what exactly?
It's massive. Mass debate has its own level of self-gratification, or so I hear.... :whistle:
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I don’t know, but my dad almost got sent to Japan during WW II. Instead he ended up in Germany because Germany surrendered. If they hadn’t, he would have gone to Japan, and might not have met my mom...etc.
I think we learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki that a bomb should never be dropped on people or other living things again.
It’s like Einstein’s quote about WW IV being fought with sticks and stones.
And I believe but correct me please if I’m incorrect, but didn’t Oppenheimer regret helping creating this ?
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I don’t know, but my dad almost got sent to Japan during WW II. Instead he ended up in Germany because Germany surrendered. If they hadn’t, he would have gone to Japan, and might not have met my mom...etc.
I think we learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki that a bomb should never be dropped on people or other living things again.
It’s like Einstein’s quote about WW IV being fought with sticks and stones.
And I believe but correct me please if I’m incorrect, but didn’t Oppenheimer regret helping creating this ?
Never say never.
It is, however a level of force escalation with profound implications, and nothing to be taken lightly.
There are those who would not hesitate to use it, however, if they thought we would fail to retaliate, and in order to prevent that, the deterrent must be maintained and credible.
Yes, some of those who helped create the bomb regretted it later. There would be a lot of soul searching associated with such a creation, especially after seeing the results. Likely not a few bad dreams at night, at least for a while. But then just meeting a few of the guys who were slated to go ashore in the invasion might change your mind about that. Like you said, your Dad might not have met your Mom...
I believe things work out, that there is someone at the helm, and all has purpose.
Imagine, instead, a Stalin (who invaded Manchuria to get the Japanese data on the atom) with a bomb and us without. If there was, at the time, one country which could temper its desire to use such power for conquest, this was the one.
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@Smokin Joe
I do agree with you. My parents and grandparents felt the bombings were justified.
As for me, well, I was a month old during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I read John Hershey’s “Hiroshima†for AP World History class. So I’m coming in as a Monday morning quarterback.
I guess I had nightmares after September 11 that we would be nuked and I still do. I think this is why I’m the way I am on this issue. With the bombs of today, the carnage would be so much greater. But I do understand why we have them.
I guess, in a war situation we have evolved past cannons, guns and bayonets.
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@Smokin Joe
I do agree with you. My parents and grandparents felt the bombings were justified.
As for me, well, I was a month old during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I read John Hershey’s “Hiroshima†for AP World History class. So I’m coming in as a Monday morning quarterback.
I guess I had nightmares after September 11 that we would be nuked and I still do. I think this is why I’m the way I am on this issue. With the bombs of today, the carnage would be so much greater. But I do understand why we have them.
I guess, in a war situation we have evolved past cannons, guns and bayonets.
I remember living 50 miles south of D.C., and my Dad drawing circles with a compass on the map of MD, VA, and DC. We were far enough out to survive a hit on the Mall, but would have had to take the boat to Virginia across nine miles of Potomac River to get away. Those were tense days. No one in our family much discussed Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but the rare mention would produce comments to the effect of "we did what we had to to win, and the Bomb saved a lot of our guys".
As it turns out, it saved a lot of Japanese, too, even though the 'peaceniks' pushing for unilateral disarmament focused on the casualties of the Bomb. It wasn't so clear then that many of them were, in fact, communist agitators or sympathizers who wanted nothing more than to strip the US of nuclear parity, so we'd either be cowed into submission or be able to be defeated.
That didn't happen.
Einstein may or may not have been right about WWIV, but no war is won until the ground is occupied. Small arms, whether they be pointy sticks and rocks or knives, or AR-15s or M4s will always play a part in that.
September 11 was not so much about total destruction as humiliation, even though it was definitely destructive. The idea that a couple dozen fanatics could strike a blow deep in our country, at the Pentagon, at the trade center in the heart of New York City, and another plane likely destined for the Capitol (something from a Tom Clancy Plot), using commercial planes as guided missiles, brought the war home to the US. The casualties here shocked the nation.
The effect was much as you described. For the first time since U-boats roamed the Atlantic off shore and air wardens kept watch on the rivers and bays of both coasts, since Americans watched for invaders all around this nation, we felt vulnerable in a way that was foreign to an entire generation. And yes, the prospect of being on the receiving end of nuclear weapons is troubling indeed. Which is why both a deterrent force and the will to use it, if need be are essential to keeping the peace. It is an issue I dealt with growing up in that shadow of Mutually Assured Destruction, and now I have a ringside seat, with silos within 75 miles of where I sit. We'd see the flash and the clouds from a pre-emptive strike. That's one ticket I hope I never use, because the implications would be dire.
But WWII also proved that while you can bomb an enemy's towns to rubble, but short of the Bomb--the only time a nation has met with final defeat from the air, you still have to have the infantry move in. Canons, guns, and bayonets will likely never go out of fashion, unless something more lethal and portable comes along. So, we remain, a nation with a rifle behind every blade of grass. May it ever be so.
While that may seem Spartan in outlook, I do not intend it to. It is only that we have those willing to do the unpleasant work of what it takes to protect this nation that gives so many its citizens the ability to enjoy so much, and why I place such high value upon all who have served it.
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Didn't it take 2 days and a second detonation to get Japan to surrender? How many lives would have been saved if Japan had not held out those 2 days?
This is one of the reasons it was necessary unlike other nations that had a king or high elected leader Japan had a GOD as leader and they were taught from birth the belief that he was all powerful and that dying for him was accepted the same as breathing. Also the Japanese were told that the Americans were rapists and murderers(that projection thing) and would kill everyone so the Japanese were prepared to die, man, woman and child for their Emperor/God. Without the dropping of the bombs the casualties on both sides would have been insane.
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This is one of the reasons it was necessary unlike other nations that had a king or high elected leader Japan had a GOD as leader and they were taught from birth the belief that he was all powerful and that dying for him was accepted the same as breathing. Also the Japanese were told that the Americans were rapists and murderers(that projection thing) and would kill everyone so the Japanese were prepared to die, man, woman and child for their Emperor/God. Without the dropping of the bombs the casualties on both sides would have been insane.
Although he was considered a God by the people the emperor risked his own life recording that surrender message to the nation. The recording had to be smuggled out of the imperial palace to a radio station for broadcasting as the same fanatical mid level officer caste who were responsible for the assassinations of many moderates in the thirties that led to war were STILL determined to carry on the war, even after Nagasaki, and were desperately searching the palace for the data.
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Although he was considered a God by the people the emperor risked his own life recording that surrender message to the nation. The recording had to be smuggled out of the imperial palace to a radio station for broadcasting as the same fanatical mid level officer caste who were responsible for the assassinations of many moderates in the thirties that led to war were STILL determined to carry on the war, even after Nagasaki, and were desperately searching the palace for the data.
Right. The invasion and subjugation of Manchuria was conducted at the onset by a rogue commander.
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It is a whole lot easier to question whether some previous generation's lives were worth losing to defeat the Japanese without the bomb. It is something else all together when it is your life or your families lives on the line....
As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved. They were the aggressor.
@DB
Many years ago, I had a patient that was a WW2 vet and his unit was training as part of the Japanese invasion force.
If he's still alive today, this would be a question to ask him. I'm sure his wife, children, grandchildren are all thankful for Truman and the bomb
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Right. The invasion and subjugation of Manchuria was conducted at the onset by a rogue commander.
It was a weird phenomena - these youg officers ended up being more powerful than the seasoned politicians and military brass and dragged that entire half of the world to war.
An example of how enthusiasm for a cause matters most of all.
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@DB
Many years ago, I had a patient that was a WW2 vet and his unit was training as part of the Japanese invasion force.
If he's still alive today, this would be a question to ask him. I'm sure his wife, children, grandchildren are all thankful for Truman and the bomb
I've had that conversation, years ago, with my Pop who was in the Navy, Pacific. His landing boat was training for the invasion. The news that it was called off because {Boom!} was the best news he'd ever heard.