The Briefing Room
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: roamer_1 on July 11, 2018, 05:49:06 am
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New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger
By Glenn T. Stanton, The Federalist, January 22, 2018
“Meanwhile, a widespread decline in churchgoing and religious affiliation had contributed to a growing anxiety among conservative believers.†Statements like this are uttered with such confidence and frequency that most Americans accept them as uncontested truisms. This one emerged just this month in an exceedingly silly article in The Atlantic on Vice President Mike Pence.
Religious faith in America is going the way of the Yellow Pages and travel maps, we keep hearing. It’s just a matter of time until Christianity’s total and happy extinction, chortle our cultural elites. Is this true? Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in “widespread decline†so much so that conservative believers should suffer “growing anxiety�
Two words: Absolutely not.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/ (http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/)
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BTTT :seeya:
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Sadly, not in my experience.
And I am not part of a mainline denomination.
Biblical acumen among Christians is horrifyingly pathetic and the churches that are growing are your Joel Osteenish Health/Wealth/Prosperity-pushers.
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Summary:
Christianity in America is on the decline, except for those of strong beliefs.
Exactly what many have said. There are "bitter clingers" while the rest of the country goes secular.
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Sadly, not in my experience.
And I am not part of a mainline denomination.
Biblical acumen among Christians is horrifyingly pathetic and the churches that are growing are your Joel Osteenish Health/Wealth/Prosperity-pushers.
The False Prophets, IOW.
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@INVAR
@XenaLee
Sadly, not in my experience.
And I am not part of a mainline denomination.
Biblical acumen among Christians is horrifyingly pathetic and the churches that are growing are your Joel Osteenish Health/Wealth/Prosperity-pushers.
Easy-believism is replacing real conversions to Christ.
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Christ that's damn good news.
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The False Prophets, IOW.
And also the people have itching ears.
"For these are rebellious people, deceitful children,
children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.
They say to the seers, “See no more visions!â€
and to the prophets, “Give us no more truth of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!†- Isaiah 30:9-11
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And also the people have itching ears.
"For these are rebellious people, deceitful children,
children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.
They say to the seers, “See no more visions!â€
and to the prophets, “Give us no more truth of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!†- Isaiah 30:9-11
Tell us pleasant things... like how God wants us all to be rich (as filthy rich as the Copelands)..... so as to justify our materialism and greed (in other words).
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Tell us pleasant things... like how God wants us all to be rich (as filthy rich as the Copelands)..... so as to justify our materialism and greed (in other words).
That would be it.
Itching ears want to hear smooth and easy things.
They do not want to hear 'This is the way...walk in it'.
They want to say they 'believe' and go on and do those things that will prohibit them from entering the Kingdom of God.
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The fastest growing churches in out area are conservative evangelicals. The PCA church knocked out a wall and they are still too crowded. The church we attend has simulcast into the chapel.
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Sadly, not in my experience.
And I am not part of a mainline denomination.
Biblical acumen among Christians is horrifyingly pathetic and the churches that are growing are your Joel Osteenish Health/Wealth/Prosperity-pushers.
While I don't exactly disagree, the article speaks against that - And some of that must be true. I know the Presby USA church here is 1/4 full of old liberals, but the Presby OPC church here is packed to the rafters and completely out of room, full to overflowing with young families and children.
Same with hardline Baptist... Heavy presence, big, young churches.
I will agree that Non-denom Evangelicals seem less trained up in the word - been critical of that for a while... It is fair to say that praise churches, which nondenom evangelicals around here seem to be, tend to be Biblically ignorant. But that is subjective in itself - Like trying to track Baptists, because they are congregational, and don't have much hierarchical order, my statement is hard to prove true in individual churches.
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While I don't exactly disagree, the article speaks against that - And some of that must be true. I know the Presby USA church here is 1/4 full of old liberals, but the Presby OPC church here is packed to the rafters and completely out of room, full to overflowing with young families and children.
Same with hardline Baptist... Heavy presence, big, young churches.
I will agree that Non-denom Evangelicals seem less trained up in the word - been critical of that for a while... It is fair to say that praise churches, which nondenom evangelicals around here seem to be, tend to be Biblically ignorant. But that is subjective in itself - Like trying to track Baptists, because they are congregational, and don't have much hierarchical order, my statement is hard to prove true in individual churches.
I think it depends on where you are at in the country, as I think results will vary from place to place.
That said - for me, the barometer of whether the church is growing or shrinking (in terms of the doctrines and principles that establish the morality we were once known by), is evident in the culture at large.
And, judging by the culture, no - the church is shrinking and growing ever-more irrelevant in terms of societal influence. It is not growing in terms of actually converting people to live by the faith they have been delivered.
Of course listening to myriad Christian 'Conservatives' lecture me about the 'evil' of not supporting homosexual marriage, abortions and judging sinful behavior as wrong - I'm largely none too impressed by 'the church' in this country. A few stellar examples I know of lost in the greater waves of the cultural tides.
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@INVAR
@XenaLee
Easy-believism is replacing real conversions to Christ.
@the_doc
The article speaks directly against that. I don't know which would be true. We do have a mega church here, of sorts, but I wouldn't even define that as 'prosperity' oriented... Or even easy-believism... I think it has problems, as it is far less personal a community than I would be used to... Their 'leadership team' is rather more preaching oriented than deacon-like. Hard for folks with problems or questions to get personal care.
What seems to be growing here are old-skool orthodox presby and lutheran, Baptist, 7th day, and tons of house churches, which tend to be Messianic... All fo those being Word-based... Non-denom evangelicals tend to be praise-based. Pentecostals have gone 'big-show', but that really ain;t fair, as there are only two of them anyway, but both are big, and both have huge stage productions - smoke and light shows, and bands, rather than what I am used to from them.
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Sadly, not in my experience.
And I am not part of a mainline denomination.
Biblical acumen among Christians is horrifyingly pathetic and the churches that are growing are your Joel Osteenish Health/Wealth/Prosperity-pushers.
Not exclusively. Others are growing as well.
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I think it depends on where you are at in the country, as I think results will vary from place to place.
That said - for me, the barometer of whether the church is growing or shrinking (in terms of the doctrines and principles that establish the morality we were once known by), is evident in the culture at large.
And, judging by the culture, no - the church is shrinking and growing ever-more irrelevant in terms of societal influence. It is not growing in terms of actually converting people to live by the faith they have been delivered.
Of course listening to myriad Christian 'Conservatives' lecture me about the 'evil' of not supporting homosexual marriage, abortions and judging sinful behavior as wrong - I'm largely none too impressed by 'the church' in this country. A few stellar examples I know of lost in the greater waves of the cultural tides.
@INVAR
I don't know - There may be a Limbaugh-esque 'See, I told you so' going on here. I see what you do - But I wonder how much of that is due to high profile, rather than endemic or systemic truth. More orthodox churches just may not have the media presence.
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@INVAR
I don't know - There may be a Limbaugh-esque 'See, I told you so' going on here. I see what you do - But I wonder how much of that is due to high profile, rather than endemic or systemic truth. More orthodox churches just may not have the media presence.
I guess in my experience of pressing the flesh of your average Joe Sixpack out here in the bible belt, the amount of biblical ignorance is astounding talking to people under 30. I was stunned how many have never been to church at all, and have absolutely no bible education whatsoever - even to the point of having no idea who David and Goliath were, or Noah or Solomon or Matthew, Mark, Luke or John of that matter.
But ask them anything having to do with pop culture - and they have the celebs and sports figures lifestyles and stories memorized.
I think the culture indicts the church in terms of it's impact on our society today.
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I guess in my experience of pressing the flesh of your average Joe Sixpack out here in the bible belt, the amount of biblical ignorance is astounding talking to people under 30. I was stunned how many have never been to church at all, and have absolutely no bible education whatsoever - even to the point of having no idea who David and Goliath were, or Noah or Solomon or Matthew, Mark, Luke or John of that matter.
But ask them anything having to do with pop culture - and they have the celebs and sports figures lifestyles and stories memorized.
I think the culture indicts the church in terms of it's impact on our society today.
That's part of where I see hope. As a rule, I would say that this culture is putting far more pressure on kids to conform to it than ever before...
But in the midst of that, I see A LOT of millenials checking out of the culture. I can't hardly sit down without I got some nearly thirty-something starry-eyed kid tapping me for what I know... TONs are trying to go homesteading. Tons are going back to the woods and the farm... And maybe it is because of my knowledge there that I see so many. But I DO see many, seeking truth in old ways.
The same exactly in religion. I have quit wearing tzitzit and any sort of Yeshua or YHWH t-shirt when I am out because I literally can't get anything done. Every day is somebody stopping me with questions, and those conversations can last hours. And they are seldom confrontational. These kids are hungry. And looking. A whole bunch of them know they've been fed a line of bullshit, and they are looking for the truth.
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@the_doc
The article speaks directly against that. I don't know which would be true. We do have a mega church here, of sorts, but I wouldn't even define that as 'prosperity' oriented... Or even easy-believism... I think it has problems, as it is far less personal a community than I would be used to... Their 'leadership team' is rather more preaching oriented than deacon-like. Hard for folks with problems or questions to get personal care.
What seems to be growing here are old-skool orthodox presby and lutheran, Baptist, 7th day, and tons of house churches, which tend to be Messianic... All fo those being Word-based... Non-denom evangelicals tend to be praise-based. Pentecostals have gone 'big-show', but that really ain;t fair, as there are only two of them anyway, but both are big, and both have huge stage productions - smoke and light shows, and bands, rather than what I am used to from them.
I once attended a non-denominational church that had a reputation for being the only really good, conservative, "Bible church" in a medium-sized city. It turned out that the church was having multiple problems of ongoing promiscuity that the elders refused to address forthrightly. (They were happy with the status quo.) The main problem with the church was that its elders never preached anything but "smooth things." The holiness of God was essentially an off-limits topic.
Some of the most prominent members in the congregation knew almost nothing about the Bible beyond a few upbeat verses ripped from the larger Biblical context.
The final straw was when I heard a guest preacher present the single most revoltingly stupid, blasphemous sermon I have ever heard in my 40 years as a Christian--and my wife and I appeared to be the only persons in the congregation who found anything wrong with the sermon.
So, yeah, I am not impressed with numbers. And I would point out that most "surveys" cannot even begin to pick up on the spiritual frauds that are going on in mainstream churches in our day.
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That's part of where I see hope. As a rule, I would say that this culture is putting far more pressure on kids to conform to it than ever before...
But in the midst of that, I see A LOT of millenials checking out of the culture. I can't hardly sit down without I got some nearly thirty-something starry-eyed kid tapping me for what I know... TONs are trying to go homesteading. Tons are going back to the woods and the farm... And maybe it is because of my knowledge there that I see so many. But I DO see many, seeking truth in old ways.
The same exactly in religion. I have quit wearing tzitzit and any sort of Yeshua or YHWH t-shirt when I am out because I literally can't get anything done. Every day is somebody stopping me with questions, and those conversations can last hours. And they are seldom confrontational. These kids are hungry. And looking. A whole bunch of them know they've been fed a line of bullshit, and they are looking for the truth.
You speak tot he hunger that exists out in your area - and that also is an indictment of the larger 'church' organizations in the country - because they are not feeding the flock, and have not fed them in a long time.
Instead the church has feasted on the culture, which in-turn has feasted on the truths once held by the church.
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Never trust anything from Harvard.
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Never trust anything from Harvard.
Even Rashida Jones?!?!?!
(http://www1.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Rashida+Jones+Heels+Pumps+1V7khmVSNI7x.jpg)
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The final straw was when I heard a guest preacher present the single most revoltingly stupid, blasphemous sermon I have ever heard in my 40 years as a Christian--and my wife and I appeared to be the only persons in the congregation who found anything wrong with the sermon.
@the_doc Now I'm curious what the sermon's point was.
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@the_doc Now I'm curious what the sermon's point was.
It was on the Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. The preacher had nothing negative to say about the Pharisee--and even managed to compliment the Pharisee for presuming to thank God in his prayer. The preacher went on to mock the Publican. He intimated that the publican's experience was merely disgusting stuff and completely inappropriate in the overall salvation experience.
The preacher neglected to mention that the Publican went home justified. (That fact in the text didn't suit his overall narrative.)
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That sermon exemplifies the weird, Scripture-twisting mess of Easy-Believism--i.e., encouraging a kind of faith without any meaningful repentance. It tends to produce spurious conversions, with people climbing over the fence of the sheepcote rather than going through the narrow and rather awful Doorway. It goes almost without saying that Easy-Believism can conceivably produce large congregations with relatively few members who are actually saved.