The Briefing Room
State Chapters => Texas => Topic started by: endicom on December 05, 2017, 01:29:57 pm
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The Hill
Travis Korson
Dec. 4, 2017
As we mark three-years since the unveiling of one of the most ambitious high-speed rail projects currently proposed in America, Texas Central Partner’s bullet train, its becoming clear that many of the assertions made about the project are way off track.
The 240-mile line promises to whisk riders from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes with convenient departures every 30 minutes to an hour for a price comparable to that of a plane ticket. Backers of the project assert that all funding will come from the private sector and that rider demand will be sufficient to sustain operations without any taxpayer support. They point to a list of “infrastructure priorities†as proof that there is broad support for high-speed rail in Texas and that the Lone Star State is a prime location to introduce the first line in the country.
In reality, these claims do not hold up under scrutiny, and the project appears to quickly be going off the rails.
More... http://thehill.com/opinion/technology/363141-americas-first-bullet-train-is-already-a-failure-and-it-hasnt-even-been (http://thehill.com/opinion/technology/363141-americas-first-bullet-train-is-already-a-failure-and-it-hasnt-even-been)
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I like reading:
...Despite Texas Central Partner’s promise that they have no plans to take state money the Texas Legislature took the extraordinary step this last session of codifying that promise and passing Senate Bill 977. The law, signed by Gov. Abbott this past May, stipulates that “the legislature may not appropriate money to pay for a cost of planning, facility construction or maintenance, or security for, promotion of, or operation of†the railway....
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I like reading:
...Despite Texas Central Partner’s promise that they have no plans to take state money the Texas Legislature took the extraordinary step this last session of codifying that promise and passing Senate Bill 977. The law, signed by Gov. Abbott this past May, stipulates that “the legislature may not appropriate money to pay for a cost of planning, facility construction or maintenance, or security for, promotion of, or operation of†the railway....
There's much to like in that reading.
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It would go right by my little place.
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Maybe 15 years ago now, the engineering company i was working for was chin deep in working on the first bullet train in the US that would have gone from the Port Canaveral area to the Disney area. It was going to be a huge tourist attraction and pay for itself. The VPs were all excited about it, their wives were all excited about it, because they all decided they needed to go on a trip to Germany to see a real one. Obviously that project went no where. No telling how much company money they wasted on all their nonsense. It was a great lesson for a young engineer.
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I like reading:
...Despite Texas Central Partner’s promise that they have no plans to take state money the Texas Legislature took the extraordinary step this last session of codifying that promise and passing Senate Bill 977. The law, signed by Gov. Abbott this past May, stipulates that “the legislature may not appropriate money to pay for a cost of planning, facility construction or maintenance, or security for, promotion of, or operation of†the railway....
But does it also bar the taking of a great deal of currently taxable land off the tax roles?
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Maybe 15 years ago now, the engineering company i was working for was chin deep in working on the first bullet train in the US that would have gone from the Port Canaveral area to the Disney area. It was going to be a huge tourist attraction and pay for itself. The VPs were all excited about it, their wives were all excited about it, because they all decided they needed to go on a trip to Germany to see a real one. Obviously that project went no where. No telling how much company money they wasted on all their nonsense. It was a great lesson for a young engineer.
Sounds like it was a great junket!
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They did not even cite the threat of thousands of wild hogs hit along the tracks. If they prevented them with fences, then the enviro nuts out of Austin would have blasted them for not allowing wildlife the freedom of movement, ala Alaska pipeline.
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They did not even cite the threat of thousands of wild hogs hit along the tracks. If they prevented them with fences, then the enviro nuts out of Austin would have blasted them for not allowing wildlife the freedom of movement, ala Alaska pipeline.
Alaskan trains throw moose and caribou into trees. I would hope a Texas train could properly launch without damage a good size hog.
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Alaskan trains throw moose and caribou into trees. I would hope a Texas train could properly launch without damage a good size hog.
Good chance it would cause a high speed train problems. The hog would certainly die but so would the train passengers.
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There's much to like in that reading.
So they passed a law saying to couldnt fund it. Couldnt they pass another law to allow it?
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Good chance it would cause a high speed train problems. The hog would certainly die but so would the train passengers.
The bottom 4 feet of the front of the train need not be built of lightweight carbon fiber. The nose can easily be built with some strength. It is not a design problem, only a cost.
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So they passed a law saying to couldnt fund it. Couldnt they pass another law to allow it?
Sure, I guess. They'd need to get it through the legislature and get a Governor who will sign it, just like any other appropriation. Could be a few political suicides to get it done.
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It seems that everyone is, at least thus far, ignoring the elephant in the room. How much currently taxable land would have to be condemned and removed from the tax rolls for this project to proceed?
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It seems that everyone is, at least thus far, ignoring the elephant in the room. How much currently taxable land would have to be condemned and removed from the tax rolls for this project to proceed?
@Bigun, I don't want a damned train ripping through my quiet and bucolic little piece of the world either.
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@Bigun, I don't want a damned train ripping through my quiet and bucolic little piece of the world either.
Look at the bright side....it'll keep the hogs swept off the track...
(There is no bright side, really. I'd hate like heck to have one of those things blasting through.)
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@Bigun, I don't want a damned train ripping through my quiet and bucolic little piece of the world either.
@Sanguine
You ain't the only one! And why should we allow eminent domain to be used for private projects?
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@Sanguine
You ain't the only one! And why should we allow eminent domain to be used for private projects?
Because it is public Access. Same as power lines and pipelines.
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Because it is public Access. Same as power lines and pipelines.
Even if the public overwhelmingly doesn't want the damned thing and especially don't want THEIR taxes to go up in order to build something they do not want!
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Look at the bright side....it'll keep the hogs swept off the track...
Who gets sued when what's left of your dog goes through someone's window?
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Who gets sued when what's left of your dog goes through someone's window?
I think they were talking about wild Hogs.
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Alaskan trains throw moose and caribou into trees. I would hope a Texas train could properly launch without damage a good size hog.
Isn't there some difference in hitting an animal at 50 mph vs 200 mph? No Alaska bullet trains, so I wonder what a 200 mph hit on a moose might do to the train?
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Isn't there some difference in hitting an animal at 50 mph vs 200 mph? No Alaska bullet trains, so I wonder what a 200 mph hit on a moose might do to the train?
Also a big difference in hitting a moose versus a hog.
It seems silly to believe that it cannot be designed to withstand the impact.
Might have to go old school:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/26/2b/f8262b0d13042d5a35611df753384147.jpg)
Will it be designed that way another question.
However, for a high speed comparison:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9255394/Passengers-in-tears-after-train-hits-herd-of-cows.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9255394/Passengers-in-tears-after-train-hits-herd-of-cows.html)
Passengers were left “in tears†after a high-speed train hit a herd of a dozen cattle, leaving “a lot of blood†spilled....
“Everyone including driver is ok. People saw a vehicle and a lot of blood... We're being assured it was a herd of cattle. Felt like we'd derailed.â€
He added it felt as if the train had “dragged a vehicle under us for a good mile or so†after the incident, which he said involved "10-12" cows.
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The wandering topic has made this old joke germane to the conversation:
In an issue of Meat & Poultry magazine, editors quoted from “Feathers,†the publication of the California Poultry Industry Federation, telling the following story:
The US Federal Aviation Administration has a unique device for testing the strength of windshields on airplanes. The device is a gun that launches a dead chicken at a plane’s windshield at approximately the speed the plane flies.
The theory is that if the windshield doesn’t crack from the carcass impact, it’ll survive a real collision with a bird during flight.
It seems the British were very interested in this and wanted to test a windshield on a brand new, speedy locomotive they’re developing.
They borrowed FAA’s chicken launcher, loaded the chicken and fired.
The ballistic chicken shattered the windshield, broke the engineer’s chair and embedded itself in the back wall of the engine’s cab. The British were stunned and asked the FAA to recheck the test to see if everything was done correctly.
The FAA reviewed the test thoroughly and had one recommendation:
“Use a thawed chicken.â€
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Also a big difference in hitting a moose versus a hog.
It seems silly to believe that it cannot be designed to withstand the impact.
Might have to go old school:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/26/2b/f8262b0d13042d5a35611df753384147.jpg)
Will it be designed that way another question.
However, for a high speed comparison:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9255394/Passengers-in-tears-after-train-hits-herd-of-cows.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9255394/Passengers-in-tears-after-train-hits-herd-of-cows.html)
Passengers were left “in tears†after a high-speed train hit a herd of a dozen cattle, leaving “a lot of blood†spilled....
“Everyone including driver is ok. People saw a vehicle and a lot of blood... We're being assured it was a herd of cattle. Felt like we'd derailed.â€
He added it felt as if the train had “dragged a vehicle under us for a good mile or so†after the incident, which he said involved "10-12" cows.
Can't go too much in the way of old school if one wishes a streamlined speedy train. Aerodynamics still have to be considered to get that 200mph
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Can't go too much in the way of old school if one wishes a streamlined speedy train. Aerodynamics still have to be considered to get that 200mph
I was thinking more about the requirements of the cow catcher at the front of the train.
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The wandering topic has made this old joke germane to the conversation:
In an issue of Meat & Poultry magazine, editors quoted from “Feathers,†the publication of the California Poultry Industry Federation, telling the following story:
The US Federal Aviation Administration has a unique device for testing the strength of windshields on airplanes. The device is a gun that launches a dead chicken at a plane’s windshield at approximately the speed the plane flies.
The theory is that if the windshield doesn’t crack from the carcass impact, it’ll survive a real collision with a bird during flight.
It seems the British were very interested in this and wanted to test a windshield on a brand new, speedy locomotive they’re developing.
They borrowed FAA’s chicken launcher, loaded the chicken and fired.
The ballistic chicken shattered the windshield, broke the engineer’s chair and embedded itself in the back wall of the engine’s cab. The British were stunned and asked the FAA to recheck the test to see if everything was done correctly.
The FAA reviewed the test thoroughly and had one recommendation:
“Use a thawed chicken.â€
Hah, my Materials professor would tell that joke over and over again, but he used jet turbines and not windshields.
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It seems that everyone is, at least thus far, ignoring the elephant in the room. How much currently taxable land would have to be condemned and removed from the tax rolls for this project to proceed?
Bart: Mongo, why would Hedley Lamarr care about where the choo-choo goes?
Mongo: Don't know. Mongo only pawn in game of life.
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Hah, my Materials professor would tell that joke over and over again, but he used jet turbines and not windshields.
There was a segment on Mythbusters, but I forgot how it went. Their experiments are often very poorly designed, and I think this was one of the worst (I'm sure as an Engineer you appreciate this). I don't think they even used a windshield from a jet aircraft for the experiment.
I seem to recall the chicken penetrated the screen, whether thawed or frozen, and it was because they were using the windshield off a Cessna. Idiots. It's not supposed to protect from something moving several hundred MPH.
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There was a segment on Mythbusters, but I forgot how it went. Their experiments are often very poorly designed, and I think this was one of the worst (I'm sure as an Engineer you appreciate this). I don't think they even used a windshield from a jet aircraft for the experiment.
I seem to recall the chicken penetrated the screen, whether thawed or frozen, and it was because they were using the windshield off a Cessna. Idiots. It's not supposed to protect from something moving several hundred MPH.
Yeah, those two guys were FOS, but they had a fun job. :)
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This should place a damper on this bullet train. Derailment at less than 8o mph
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amtrak-washington-state-derail-interstate/2017/12/18/id/832359/ (https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amtrak-washington-state-derail-interstate/2017/12/18/id/832359/)
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This should place a damper on this bullet train. Derailment at less than 8o mph
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amtrak-washington-state-derail-interstate/2017/12/18/id/832359/ (https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amtrak-washington-state-derail-interstate/2017/12/18/id/832359/)
@IsailedawayfromFR
Should but very likely won't.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
Should but very likely won't.
Hey, it's Seattle/Tacoma. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs...
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@IsailedawayfromFR
Should but very likely won't.
I would think that Texans are a bit more skeptical in the first place to this non-essential endeavor. Coupled with the thousands of acres that would have to be seized from private landowners in Texas (as opposed to mostly public lands crossed in Washington state), yes it is another nail in the box.
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I would think that Texans are a bit more skeptical in the first place to this non-essential endeavor. Coupled with the thousands of acres that would have to be seized from private landowners in Texas (as opposed to mostly public lands crossed in Washington state), yes it is another nail in the box.
I sincerely hope you are correct.
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I sincerely hope you are correct.
Me too!
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This should place a damper on this bullet train. Derailment at less than 8o mph
No one is designing 30 mph max curves on a new 200 mph train route.
There will be places near the beginning and end where the trains will have to travel slower.
Any train going over 250% the rated speed for the curve is going to have problems.
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I'll make a deal with the Texas bullet train folks! Get rid of property taxes entirely and then we'll talk about letting you take more property off of the tax rolls!
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I'll make a deal with the Texas bullet train folks! Get rid of property taxes entirely and then we'll talk about letting you take more property off of the tax rolls!
If this is to be a privately owned rail, why would the property be taken off the tax roles? Pipeline, Electric Utility easements pay taxes.
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If this is to be a privately owned rail, why would the property be taken off the tax roles? Pipeline, Electric Utility easements pay taxes.
That's true but it's my understanding that this isn't planned to work that way. I may be wrong about that but I don't think so.
If it is, in fact, a completely private project how will they compel anyone who refuses to sell them the property they need to do so?
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That's true but it's my understanding that this isn't planned to work that way. I may be wrong about that but I don't think so.
If it is, in fact, a completely private project how will they compel anyone who refuses to sell them the property they need to do so?
Like a privately owned pipeline or power line, they are able to invoke eminent domain laws if they are a "common carrier", open to all to use.
If ExxonMobil builds a pipeline to only move ExxonMobil product, they cannot use eminent domain. If Kinder Morgan builds a common carrier pipeline, FERC regulated, open to anyone to bid on moving product, they can use eminent domain.
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No one is designing 30 mph max curves on a new 200 mph train route.
There will be places near the beginning and end where the trains will have to travel slower.
Any train going over 250% the rated speed for the curve is going to have problems.
who said they were?
A Brand New Rail Line With Its First Run deRailing RESULTING In Deaths And Many INJURIES WILL NOT PLAY Well With Texas constituents. A bullet train will go much faster, with commensurate risks of even more tragedy if derailed. Design may be better for higher speeds, but human error is still there.
Lots of folks would rather trust themselves behind the wheel of their own car.
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Design may be better for higher speeds, but human error is still there.
I have confidence this event will greatly push congress to legislate "Positive Control", an automated system that slows the train down when required to passenger trains. It has been discussed before.
https://www.fra.dot.gov/ptc (https://www.fra.dot.gov/ptc)
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I have confidence this event will greatly push congress to legislate "Positive Control", an automated system that slows the train down when required to passenger trains. It has been discussed before.
https://www.fra.dot.gov/ptc (https://www.fra.dot.gov/ptc)
Sounds like it is similar to a self-driving car. They never wreck do they?
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Sounds like it is similar to a self-driving car. They never wreck do they?
I have mixed emotions about their use. There have been some very clear cases of operator error that this type system would have saved lives. But the dependence upon such a system will likely cost lives as well. Which way is best?
Perhaps their could be an automated system that inflicts pain upon the engineer which fails to slow down at the predesignated point...
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I have mixed emotions about their use. There have been some very clear cases of operator error that this type system would have saved lives. But the dependence upon such a system will likely cost lives as well. Which way is best?
Perhaps their could be an automated system that inflicts pain upon the engineer which fails to slow down at the predesignated point...
Being an engineer myself, I sure would tread carefully taking a job that has that happen....
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Being an engineer myself, I sure would tread carefully taking a job that has that happen....
'twas meant as a joke, but as an engineer myself, I'm naturally humor impaired.
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'twas meant as a joke, but as an engineer myself, I'm naturally humor impaired.
Here's a tragic example of a new guy on the job where things go horribly wrong in an automated situation.
A real life human error in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcsTRQNZLE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcsTRQNZLE)
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Here's a tragic example of a new guy on the job where things go horribly wrong in an automated situation.
A real life human error in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcsTRQNZLE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcsTRQNZLE)
A video and a very, very long article, and I still don't know what happened there.
Added: I continued reading, and way down at the end of the story they say the temp worker was killed by a falling pallet of Bacardi.
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A video and a very, very long article, and I still don't know what happened there.
Added: I continued reading, and way down at the end of the story they say the temp worker was killed by a falling pallet of Bacardi.
video is less than 3 minutes
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video is less than 3 minutes
That's nice. I think I mentioned the video. I get nothing from videos because I can't hear them. My bad. I'll have a chat with my ears about it, if I can ever hear over the ringing.
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Like a privately owned pipeline or power line, they are able to invoke eminent domain laws if they are a "common carrier", open to all to use.
If ExxonMobil builds a pipeline to only move ExxonMobil product, they cannot use eminent domain. If Kinder Morgan builds a common carrier pipeline, FERC regulated, open to anyone to bid on moving product, they can use eminent domain.
So we are right back to taking property off the tax roll.
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So we are right back to taking property off the tax roll.
Will the train be privately owned or government owned? If private, the land will be taxed.
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Will the train be privately owned or government owned? If private, the land will be taxed.
That's the way I understand it. Since Kelo, if a State Constitution permits it, Eminent Domain can be used to seize private property from one party and given to another. I know about the State Constitution limitation because AZ forbids the practice, and it was exercised in court when a hardware store tried to take a brake shop in Mesa, and lost in the AZ Supreme Court. Friend of mine.
TX may be a State that forbids it, @Bigun would know.
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That's the way I understand it. Since Kelo, if a State Constitution permits it, Eminent Domain can be used to seize private property from one party and given to another. I know about the State Constitution limitation because AZ forbids the practice, and it was exercised in court when a hardware store tried to take a brake shop in Mesa, and lost in the AZ Supreme Court. Friend of mine.
TX may be a State that forbids it, @Bigun would know.
@Cyber Liberty
Actually, I'm not certain and would have to research the matter. I know there was an effort to pass a Constitutional amendment to that effect but do not recall whether or not it passed. I would suspect that it did as it is rare for one to be voted down.
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@Cyber Liberty
Actually, I'm not certain and would have to research the matter. I know there was an effort to pass a Constitutional amendment to that effect but do not recall whether or not it passed. I would suspect that it did as it is rare for one to be voted down.
Good luck finding it. A Google search says you have 491 to sift through.
Added: This one looks promising, but an act of your legislature could overrule it:
http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=641&legSession=81-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=14 (http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=641&legSession=81-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=14)
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Good luck finding it. A Google search says you have 491 to sift through.
Added: This one looks promising, but an act of your legislature could overrule it:
http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=641&legSession=81-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=14 (http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=641&legSession=81-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=14)
As written:
The constitutional amendment to prohibit the taking, damaging, or destroying of private property for public use unless the action is for the ownership, use, and enjoyment of the property by the State, a political subdivision of the State, the public at large, or entities granted the power of eminent domain under law or for the elimination of urban blight on a particular parcel of property, but not for certain economic development or enhancement of tax revenue purposes, and to limit the legislature's authority to grant the power of eminent domain to an entity.
That is the key for the items I am talking about with common carrier. If anybody can buy a ticket, not limited to club membership, etc, then it is eligible to use eminent domain. Normally it is in the company best interest to work it out before going to court for eminent domain. When I did pipeline work, typically eminent domain was a last resort.
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As written:
The constitutional amendment to prohibit the taking, damaging, or destroying of private property for public use unless the action is for the ownership, use, and enjoyment of the property by the State, a political subdivision of the State, the public at large, or entities granted the power of eminent domain under law or for the elimination of urban blight on a particular parcel of property, but not for certain economic development or enhancement of tax revenue purposes, and to limit the legislature's authority to grant the power of eminent domain to an entity.
That is the key for the items I am talking about with common carrier. If anybody can buy a ticket, not limited to club membership, etc, then it is eligible to use eminent domain. Normally it is in the company best interest to work it out before going to court for eminent domain. When I did pipeline work, typically eminent domain was a last resort.
The end ownership if the key. If, in the end the taken property is owned by a private entity, it stays on the tax rolls, but if it becomes owned by the "public at large," then it's off the tax rolls, as @Bigun says.
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As written:
The constitutional amendment to prohibit the taking, damaging, or destroying of private property for public use unless the action is for the ownership, use, and enjoyment of the property by the State, a political subdivision of the State, the public at large, or entities granted the power of eminent domain under law or for the elimination of urban blight on a particular parcel of property, but not for certain economic development or enhancement of tax revenue purposes, and to limit the legislature's authority to grant the power of eminent domain to an entity.
That is the key for the items I am talking about with common carrier. If anybody can buy a ticket, not limited to club membership, etc, then it is eligible to use eminent domain. Normally it is in the company best interest to work it out before going to court for eminent domain. When I did pipeline work, typically eminent domain was a last resort.
I THINK that means that a private entity (The people wanting to build the train) would have to get specific authority from the State of Texas in order to use eminent domain to acquire right of ways necessary for their privately owned choo choo!
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I THINK that means that a private entity (The people wanting to build the train) would have to get specific authority from the State of Texas in order to use eminent domain to acquire right of ways necessary for their privately owned choo choo!
There remains a lot of abuse of this process which this group is attempting to influence legislation to correct so it is not so slanted towards business rather than the landowners.
I attended a public forum that examined the pending legislation. Among other items where eminent domain is abused is that companies who obtain this state right have to be vetted, but after receiving right they frequently turn the right over to non-vetted companies.
http://www.texansforpropertyrights.com/news-and-events/coalition-of-property-rights-advocates-applaud-latest-eminent-domain-legislation/ (http://www.texansforpropertyrights.com/news-and-events/coalition-of-property-rights-advocates-applaud-latest-eminent-domain-legislation/)
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There remains a lot of abuse of this process which this group is attempting to influence legislation to correct so it is not so slanted towards business rather than the landowners.
I attended a public forum that examined the pending legislation. Among other items where eminent domain is abused is that companies who obtain this state right have to be vetted, but after receiving right they frequently turn the right over to non-vetted companies.
http://www.texansforpropertyrights.com/news-and-events/coalition-of-property-rights-advocates-applaud-latest-eminent-domain-legislation/ (http://www.texansforpropertyrights.com/news-and-events/coalition-of-property-rights-advocates-applaud-latest-eminent-domain-legislation/)
@IsailedawayfromFR
Looks like the bill mentioned in the article you linked to died in committee.
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=85R&Bill=HB2684 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=85R&Bill=HB2684)
Not surprised give who was making the committee appointment then.
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I THINK that means that a private entity (The people wanting to build the train) would have to get specific authority from the State of Texas in order to use eminent domain to acquire right of ways necessary for their privately owned choo choo!
They have to go through a court proceeding. Same as a pipeline, electric power line, etc...
http://www.roysecityheraldbanner.com/texas/news/update-texas-central-responds-to-public-opinion/article_efb03157-c375-5a08-886e-02b2f48e180a.html (http://www.roysecityheraldbanner.com/texas/news/update-texas-central-responds-to-public-opinion/article_efb03157-c375-5a08-886e-02b2f48e180a.html)
...Texas law has long has given use of eminent domain to railroads, pipelines, electrical lines and other industries that provide for a public good and a strong economy. A state judge earlier this year affirmed that Texas Central’s has that authority. ...