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General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 02:34:51 pm

Title: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 02:34:51 pm: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/09/27/obamacare-and-the-let-it-burn-theory-of-socialist-collapse/

Writing at the Wall Street Journal, Daniel Henninger has some advice for ObamaCare opponents: just let it burn until it collapses, taking the entire rotted edifice of socialism with it.

As its Oct. 1 implementation date arrives, ObamaCare is the biggest bet that American liberalism has made in 80 years on its foundational beliefs. This thing called “ObamaCare” carries on its back all the justifications, hopes and dreams of the entitlement state. The chance is at hand to let its political underpinnings collapse, perhaps permanently.

If ObamaCare fails, or seriously falters, the entitlement state will suffer a historic loss of credibility with the American people. It will finally be vulnerable to challenge and fundamental change. But no mere congressional vote can achieve that. Only the American people can kill ObamaCare.

Well, sure, but is it really conservative or Republican “leadership” to let the American people suffer for years, until they finally rise up and demand reform? ”Let it burn” is not easy advice to give to people trapped at the heart of a raging fire.

Also, one of the points I think opponents of Ted Cruz and his filibuster are missing is that quiet, or even somewhat grumpy, acquiescence today fuels charges of hypocrisy during tomorrow’s political battles. It matters that Republicans can stand up in 2014 or 2016 and invite the public to remember how hard they fought to stop ObamaCare when they had a chance. It’s not their fault that they didn’t have the Senate votes to succeed. I wonder if politicians and pundits sometimes forget how strongly such reasonable arguments resonate with average people, who understandably tend to remember only the largest and most dramatic gestures after a few years have passed.

Henninger goes on to offer some examples of the teetering entrenched social programs he thinks are ripe for a fall. But, by his own admission, we’ve known these programs were insolvent for decades. The “let it burn” strategy hasn’t gotten us anywhere yet. How long are we supposed to let the ObamaCare fire burn before we reap some political dividends… especially when we know the inevitable collapse will be worse with every passing year?

Would anyone like to join me in the political graveyard and see if we can locate the remains of a dead-and-gone program that was allowed to collapse? I’m having a hard time thinking of a significant example, at least at the federal level. Part of the problem with leaving a government power grab to rot for a few years is that the moral argument against it decomposes as well. People wonder: “If it’s such a repellent horror, why did you Constitution-loving defenders of liberty agree to go along with it?”

Going back at least to the Breaux-Thomas Medicare Commission in 1999, endless learned bodies have warned that the U.S. entitlement scheme of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is financially unsupportable. Of Medicare, Rep. Bill Thomas said at the time, “One of the biggest problems is that the government tries to administer 10,000 prices in 3,000 counties, and it gets it wrong most of the time.” But change never comes.

Medicaid is the worst medicine in the United States. It grinds on. Doctors in droves are withdrawing from Medicare. No matter. It all lives on.

An established political idea is like a vampire. Facts, opinions, votes, garlic: Nothing can make it die.

But there is one thing that can kill an established political idea. It will die if the public that embraced it abandons it.

Six months ago, that didn’t seem likely. Now it does.

Does it? The public hated ObamaCare all through the 2012 election, but Obama still got re-elected. One reason for this was Mitt Romney’s poor job of rallying dislike for ObamaCare into effective action, a task clearly made more difficult by his resume. Henninger is asking us to wait for the public to abandon a ship they never really boarded. They’ve been clubbed into submission with despair and shanghaied aboard. Their despotic President thunders that it’s the irrevocable “law of the land” – if taken seriously, he’s saying it’s the first law in American history that can never be changed or repealed, a formal writ of execution for the old notion of representative self-government. We could get rid of the laws that enabled slavery, but we can never be free of ObamaCare. The President’s minions are telling the public that anyone who resists this law is no better than a terrorist with a bomb strapped to his chest. (That’s from White House Senior Adviser Dan Pfeiffer, if you’re having trouble keeping your loathsome Obama Administration toads straight.)

The “let it burn” attitude only deepens public despair. By Henninger’s own analysis, the public has come to accept Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security as inevitable facts of life, no matter how poorly they perform. Even people who know they’re headed for insolvency accept them. This is due, in part, to years of social engineering perpetrated by such programs, along with other fiscally irresponsible socialist crusades, such as the “War On Poverty.” People don’t even seriously think about alternatives to New Deal and Great Society programs. The ObamaCare commissars will work very hard to ensure that alternatives to it will become unthinkable as well. They’ve already done a pretty good job of that, haven’t they?

Citing social programs that have endured despite decades of mounting criticism – not to mention doomsday fiscal projections from the agencies that actually run them - is not a convincing argument for applying “let it burn” tactics to ObamaCare. Maybe it will prove to be a bridge too far for the entitlement state… or maybe it will be folded into the same protective shroud of despairing rhetoric and brute socialist politics as the rest of the system, held together in unison until the whole thing blows up in ten or fifteen years, at which point I still would not be sanguine about the odds of a previously accommodating conservative movement leading America out of the ruins. Look at the end-stage socialist basket cases of the world. Do you see a lot of Thomas Jefferson types rising to lead them?

The Left is very good at turning its failures into arguments for even more power; that’s the M.O. of “progressive” philosophy in a nutshell. Liberty taken is never returned; the State never grows less powerful. Instead, it uses its power to stigmatize scapegoats for its disasters. And it’s always got foot soldiers, because even the worst government policies have their captive dependents and ardent supporters.

Henninger dismisses the odds of ObamaCare failure leading to single-payer socialized medicine as “not bloody likely if the aghast U.S. public has any say.” I wouldn’t count on their having anything to say about it. A population reshaped by a decade of dependency on ObamaCare – with people well into the previously independent middle class hooked on welfare subsidies, delivered via tax credits – is going to produce a sizable, energetic bloc of voters who will be very receptive to the “evil Republicans want to take your health care away and kill you” argument. A small, focused, bought-and-paid-for strike force of voters can defeat a larger, unhappy population, especially if the media is lecturing the unhappy that their discontent is immoral.

Henninger’s concluding suggestions are excellent ideas, right up until the last sentence:

Republicans and conservatives, instead of tilting at the defunding windmill, should be working now to present the American people with the policy ideas that will emerge inevitably when ObamaCare’s declines. The system of private insurance exchanges being adopted by the likes of Walgreens suggests a parallel alternative to ObamaCare may be happening already.

If Republicans feel they must “do something” now, they could get behind Sen. David Vitter’s measure to force Congress to enter the burning ObamaCare castle along with the rest of the American people. Come 2017, they can repeal the ruins.

The discrediting of the entitlement state begins next Tuesday. Let it happen.

Hasn’t the long, dreary history of the entitlement state demonstrated that its discrediting is not something that will just “happen?” I’m all in favor of a full-spectrum assault that highlights ObamaCare as an example of the corrupt dead-end socialist philosophy Henninger criticizes. But I think we have to launch that assault now, not only because I would spare my countrymen the agony I see coming in the next decade, but because I’m not convinced the terrain is going to become much more favorable for conservative and libertarian reform, during the collapsing window of time in which America still has the strength to change course. There were doubtless early opponents of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid who wanted to let them burn for a few years, too.

Update: One other point Mr. Henninger raised that I’d like to address: “ObamaCare’s Achilles’ heel is technology. The software glitches are going to drive people insane.”

Yes, they are, and all of these software problems are inexcusable. I’ve got a computer background myself, and the notion that these infrastructure issues were not discussed in depth before the Affordable Care Act got rammed through Congress is absurd and pathetic. Nobody involved in crafting the Peoples’ Glorious Health Care Exchanges realized, until just a few months ago, that the computer systems containing the necessary data were incompatible? This is the kind of foolishness that puts private-sector operations out of business. But of course, the government never goes out of business – it just hypnotizes the public with some more dishonest speeches, raises taxes, prints money, and keeps rolling.

But the ObamaCare computer problems will eventually be hammered out. Every data processing problem can be solved eventually, given enough time and money. The “let it burn” approach gives them time; tax serfs and deficit unicorns will be squeezed until enough money falls out. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the urgent need to fix the train-wreck ObamaCare exchanges was soon cited as an argument against tax and spending cuts, or in favor of tax increases. ”How can you evil Republicans even think about taking away the money our Sainted Middle Class needs to complete work on infrastructure for the Affordable Care Act?”

Once the fires have been extinguished with a blanket of money, all that remains is persuading people to forget about how horrible ObamaCare Launch Day was. This has been done successfully with numerous glitchy computer hardware and software launches in the past. I can see Obama or his successor chuckling about it in a few years – “we all remember how many challenges there were at the beginning, but now that the Affordable Care Act system is fully up and running, how can Republicans ask us to discard all the hard work we’ve done? How can they expect us to throw away these accomplishments?”
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 02:39:15 pm: Quote
Also, one of the points I think opponents of Ted Cruz and his filibuster are missing is that quiet, or even somewhat grumpy, acquiescence today fuels charges of hypocrisy during tomorrow’s political battles. It matters that Republicans can stand up in 2014 or 2016 and invite the public to remember how hard they fought to stop ObamaCare when they had a chance. It’s not their fault that they didn’t have the Senate votes to succeed. I wonder if politicians and pundits sometimes forget how strongly such reasonable arguments resonate with average people, who understandably tend to remember only the largest and most dramatic gestures after a few years have passed.

Quote
The “let it burn” attitude only deepens public despair. By Henninger’s own analysis, the public has come to accept Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security as inevitable facts of life, no matter how poorly they perform. Even people who know they’re headed for insolvency accept them. This is due, in part, to years of social engineering perpetrated by such programs, along with other fiscally irresponsible socialist crusades, such as the “War On Poverty.” People don’t even seriously think about alternatives to New Deal and Great Society programs. The ObamaCare commissars will work very hard to ensure that alternatives to it will become unthinkable as well. They’ve already done a pretty good job of that, haven’t they?

I could pull many more quotes from this EXCELLENT article but I will refrain for now and just say that I could not be more in agreement with the author!!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 02:41:31 pm: How many will die from inept bureaucracy and second-hand medicine while we await this abomination to fail? Would Mr. Henniger place his loved ones the line? His children? His grandchildren?
Men act. Cowards dawdle. It is our time to choose.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Scottftlc on September 27, 2013, 02:44:48 pm: I am not sure the collapse of Obamacare will result in the checked-out, fundamentally lazy, politically-correct society rising up and demanding a free society solution. That takes energy, intelligence and an internal desire to throw off the chains of sloth and correctness on a mass scale. I don't believe that exists in the whole of America any longer...maybe in some places but not in the nation as a whole.

The collapse is more likely to result in an even greater level of nanny state than we have today.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 02:45:24 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 02:41:31 pm
How many will die from inept bureaucracy and second-hand medicine while we await this abomination to fail? Would Mr. Henniger place his loved ones the line? His children? His grandchildren?
Men act. Cowards dawdle. It is our time to choose.

:amen: :amen: and :amen:!!!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 02:51:10 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 02:41:31 pm
How many will die from inept bureaucracy and second-hand medicine while we await this abomination to fail? Would Mr. Henniger place his loved ones the line? His children? His grandchildren?
Men act. Cowards dawdle. It is our time to choose.

Would Mr. Henninger place his loved ones ON the line. My apologies.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 02:54:25 pm: In the private sector, a particular program lives or dies based on a cost/benefit analysis of the program itself. In the public sector, it never dies because the cost/benefit is not applied to the program, but to the politicians and establishment. Therefore, Medicare -- a program that will bankrupt the country -- is deemed "a good program" because "people like it."
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 02:58:19 pm: Quote from: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 02:54:25 pm
In the private sector, a particular program lives or dies based on a cost/benefit analysis of the program itself. In the public sector, it never dies because the cost/benefit is not applied to the program, but to the politicians and establishment. Therefore, Medicare -- a program that will bankrupt the country -- is deemed "a good program" because "people like it."

You are right of course but that does not alter the laws of economics! Sooner or later they WILL come into play.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on September 27, 2013, 02:59:51 pm: Quote from: Scottftlc on September 27, 2013, 02:44:48 pm
I am not sure the collapse of Obamacare will result in the checked-out, fundamentally lazy, politically-correct society rising up and demanding a free society solution. That takes energy, intelligence and an internal desire to throw off the chains of sloth and correctness on a mass scale. I don't believe that exists in the whole of America any longer...maybe in some places but not in the nation as a whole.

I think you absolutely nailed it.

And might I add that the Cruz filibuster was about so much more than just the looming Obamcare vote. It was about changing the way people think. A huge, daunting task, but we have to start somewhere.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:20:50 pm: Since Obamacare is not going to be defunded, it should be delayed. The only feasible way to delay it is to tie that delay to raising the debt ceiling.

However, we find out this morning that some House GOPers won't go along with that, so it appears we are going to be treated to a few days of government shutdown, with all the attendant criticism of the GOP as we witness government workers staying home, pay checks to the military being delayed, and who knows what else.

I have been beaten to a pulp on this forum because I prefer that we avoid a government shutdown because there is no way to win it. We will have to fold; Obama holds all the cards.

He doesn't hold the cards in the debt ceiling debate. But, having caved on the shutdown, Boehner and Co. will be weakened coming out of it. Obama is then likely to keep the attention on the "recalcitrant" Republicans and we may get nothing out of the debt ceiling debate either.

So, go ahead. Follow this idiot Cruz off the cliff. Rest assured, however, that, at the end of October, when the GOP has gotten neither defunding nor a delay of Obamacare and whose already low approval ratings are even lower, I will be the first to say "I told you so."
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:29:20 pm: I will be the first to say "I told you so."

LOL! I have absolutely no doubt about that but if you just happen to be proven wrong what will you say then?
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 03:33:06 pm: History belongs to the bold.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:34:31 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:29:20 pm
I will be the first to say "I told you so."

LOL! I have absolutely no doubt about that but if you just happen to be proven wrong what will you say then?

Based on history, I won't be. But, if I am, I will admit it and give kudos to Cruz and Lee.

If I'm not, the GOP will likely have ruined its chances to take the Senate in 2014. The Tea Party, if it doesn't get its way, is notorious for taking its marbles and going home and will be anxious to teach "the GOPe" a lesson. So, things will get even worse for conservatives.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:35:34 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 03:33:06 pm
History belongs to the bold.

"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

Frederick Douglass August 4, 1857
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:36:52 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 03:33:06 pm
History belongs to the bold.

History belongs to those with a workable strategy.

The landscape is littered with the carcasses of those who thought mere boldness and personal courage were sufficient to defeat an enemy.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 03:42:00 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:36:52 pm
History belongs to those with a workable strategy.

The landscape is littered with the carcasses of those who thought mere boldness and personal courage were sufficient to defeat an enemy.

I'm sorry but do you fear your own shadow?
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:46:47 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:36:52 pm
History belongs to those with a workable strategy.

The landscape is littered with the carcasses of those who thought mere boldness and personal courage were sufficient to defeat an enemy.

Why do you insist that there is no strategy to what Cruz. Lee, and others are doing when you know damned well it isn't so?

http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/09/so-what-is-cruzs-strategy/#maTyoiiIih2F1dS0.01
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:50:39 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 03:42:00 pm
I'm sorry but do you fear your own shadow?

No. But I didn't succeed in business by undertaking major projects KNOWING I was going to fail.

The Democrats ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:55:25 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:50:39 pm
No. But I didn't succeed in business by undertaking major projects KNOWING I was going to fail.

The Democrats ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better.

The democrats are not going to back down therefore we should! Wow! That will win every time won't it!

Whatever business you are in I'm very glad I'm not your business partner!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: DCPatriot on September 27, 2013, 03:55:44 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:50:39 pm
No. But I didn't succeed in business by undertaking major projects KNOWING I was going to fail.

The Democrats ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better.

I agree with that....we're essentially negotiating with suicide bombers in a sense that the more 'damage' suffered by Americans....the more sympathy they garner for their cause.

They don't give a rat's behind if people don't get their checks....in fact they'd have used this strategy earlier but the GOP never gave them the chance.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:55:56 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:46:47 pm
Why do you insist that there is no strategy to what Cruz. Lee, and others are doing when you know damned well it isn't so?

http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/09/so-what-is-cruzs-strategy/#maTyoiiIih2F1dS0.01

Well, here's Cruz's flaw, right here:

Quote
"If we see 41 Republicans standing together on cloture, the Senate continues to debate the bill,” he explained. “Now, at that point, once Republicans are united, the pressure, I believe, will begin to focus on Democrats, and, in particular, red state Democrats.”

No, the Senate doesn't continue to debate the bill. Reid has already said he would simply pull the bill and demand that Boehner come up with another CR.

Cruz has no strategy. As far as "mobilizing the American People," 1.8 million signatures on a petition is nothing. Hell, the NAACP got that many signatures on a petition for the DOJ to prosecute George Zimmerman, and we laughed at that.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:58:33 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:55:25 pm
The democrats are not going to back down therefore we should! Wow! That will win every time won't it!

Whatever business you are in I'm very glad I'm not your business partner!

I'm glad you're glad. Emotion has no place in business negotiations. I could never work with anyone who doesn't map out every probability.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 04:00:08 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 03:29:20 pm
I will be the first to say "I told you so."

LOL! I have absolutely no doubt about that but if you just happen to be proven wrong what will you say then?

Sinkspur has said many, many things over the years that turned out to be wrong, but he never apologizes after the fact. He still probably thinks Romney is going to win in a landslide.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 04:04:20 pm: Quote from: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 04:00:08 pm
Sinkspur has said many, many things over the years that turned out to be wrong, but he never apologizes after the fact. He still probably thinks Romney is going to win in a landslide.

It's just a website, Victor.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 04:04:22 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:58:33 pm
I could never work with anyone who doesn't map out every probability.

And I could never work with anyone who knows only surrender!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 04:06:58 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:55:56 pm
Well, here's Cruz's flaw, right here:

No, the Senate doesn't continue to debate the bill. Reid has already said he would simply pull the bill and demand that Boehner come up with another CR.

Cruz has no strategy. As far as "mobilizing the American People," 1.8 million signatures on a petition is nothing. Hell, the NAACP got that many signatures on a petition for the DOJ to prosecute George Zimmerman, and we laughed at that.

I say he does and I support it! Sick and tired of "republican" surrender monkeys!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 04:09:43 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 04:04:22 pm
And I could never work with anyone who knows only surrender!

LOL!! I'm still arguing with you, aren't I?
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm: I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: DCPatriot on September 27, 2013, 04:13:48 pm: Quote from: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm
I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.

Hear! Hear! :beer:
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 04:14:04 pm: Quote from: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm
I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.

Thank you, Lando. I know how Ted Cruz feels.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: GourmetDan on September 27, 2013, 04:24:50 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:50:39 pm
The Democrats ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better.

Notice that we aren't debating "The Republicans ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better." and that the Democrats need to some up with a new plan.

Oh no. It's the Republicans who must make certain realizations and 'come up with a new plan'.

Typical media-inspired thought-pattern parroting...
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 04:29:49 pm: Quote from: GourmetDan on September 27, 2013, 04:24:50 pm
Notice that we aren't debating "The Republicans ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better." and that the Democrats need to some up with a new plan.

Oh no. It's the Republicans who must make certain realizations and 'come up with a new plan'.

Typical media-inspired thought-pattern parroting...

Exactly so!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 04:32:22 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:36:52 pm
History belongs to those with a workable strategy.

The landscape is littered with the carcasses of those who thought mere boldness and personal courage were sufficient to defeat an enemy.

You may want to go back to read your history books to review the battles that were won by those with the ability to strategize on the fly as opposed to those who watched as their best laid plans collapse.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:13:22 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 03:34:31 pm
Based on history, I won't be. But, if I am, I will admit it and give kudos to Cruz and Lee.

If I'm not, the GOP will likely have ruined its chances to take the Senate in 2014. The Tea Party, if it doesn't get its way, is notorious for taking its marbles and going home and will be anxious to teach "the GOPe" a lesson. So, things will get even worse for conservatives.

If you do that will be a first... when Cruz won election after you swore over and over Dewhurst was going to wipe the floor with him you quietly disappeared for a couple of months rather than admit you were wrong.. only to reappear the first thing Cruz said something you didn't approve of.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:16:00 pm: Quote from: GourmetDan on September 27, 2013, 04:24:50 pm
Notice that we aren't debating "The Republicans ARE NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN. The sooner everybody realizes that, the better." and that the Democrats need to some up with a new plan.

Oh no. It's the Republicans who must make certain realizations and 'come up with a new plan'.

Typical media-inspired thought-pattern parroting...

as a companion to this thread I hope everyone read the post DC put in opinions... the excellent article speaks truth about the sad state of what we call Republicans.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 06:18:09 pm: Todd Akin was NOT the Tea Party candidate.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:18:36 pm: Quote from: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm
I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.

I admire tenacity and conviction as well, I don't admire striking out in a vitriolic manner when people disagree with your position.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 06:18:55 pm: Quote from: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:13:22 pm

If you do that will be a first... when Cruz won election after you swore over and over Dewhurst was going to wipe the floor with him you quietly disappeared for a couple of months rather than admit you were wrong.. only to reappear the first thing Cruz said something you didn't approve of.

When you begin admitting your failures here, I will begin admitting mine.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 06:19:30 pm: Quote from: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:18:36 pm

I admire tenacity and conviction as well, I don't admire striking out in a vitriolic manner when people disagree with your position.

Physician, heal thyself.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:19:55 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 06:18:09 pm
Todd Akin was NOT the Tea Party candidate.

You're right, but the same people who hate the TP like to PRETEND he was.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:21:24 pm: Quote from: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 06:19:30 pm
Physician, heal thyself.

You have no idea what I hold back out if respect to Myst. I suspect I'm not alone in holding back...
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 06:27:01 pm: Quote from: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 06:21:24 pm

You have no idea what I hold back out if respect to Myst. I suspect I'm not alone in holding back...

Likewise.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: truth_seeker on September 27, 2013, 06:36:18 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 06:18:09 pm
Todd Akin was NOT the Tea Party candidate.
It is the common perception that he typifies the TP.

Perception is reality. He who has the power to shape perception, has the real power.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 06:41:22 pm: Quote from: truth_seeker on September 27, 2013, 06:36:18 pm
It is the common perception that he typifies the TP.

Perception is reality. He who has the power to shape perception, has the real power.

In the world, yes, there are people here who know better than that continue to perpetuate that lie.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 07:11:14 pm: Quote from: olde north church on September 27, 2013, 06:41:22 pm
In the world, yes, there are people here who know better than that continue to perpetuate that lie.

Exactly and Truth Seeker you have been one who has made that claim from the very Sunday his comment was made public. Even when presented with the facts if that primary.. that Akin was the candidate the RNSC supported and Steelman was the Tea Party candidate you India in using Akin to denigrate the Tea Party you so dislike so it is you who is helping spread a misperception.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on September 27, 2013, 07:16:57 pm: He can't help it. Akin is a boogey man that partys inside his head. Murdouch and O'Donnell do too.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 07:30:32 pm: Quote from: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm
I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.

Definition of OBSTINATE: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on September 27, 2013, 07:32:56 pm: Quote from: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 04:10:08 pm
I will say this - I admire sinkspur's tenacity and conviction. He defends his viewpoint with all comers. I also respect his viewpoints despite not always agreeing with them. A bit curmudgeonly? Indeed. But I can live with that. He brings great value to this forum.

Yeah, he keeps it lively, that's for sure. Entertainment for the onlookers.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: DCPatriot on September 27, 2013, 07:37:58 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 07:30:32 pm
Definition of OBSTINATE: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion

Excuse me....but I haven't seen "reason, arguments, or persuasion" in any SERIOUS attempt, except perhaps Rapunzel.

Virtually all the rest are piling on.....somehow under the impression that joining in with insults and direct attacks....it proves weakness and flaws in Sinkspur's position. It doesn't....to anybody who's been paying attention for the last, oh.....DECADE!

A lot of posters apparently don't like Sinkspur. Instead they seem to prefer an echo chamber.

....to which I say..."NUTZ!!"
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: truth_seeker on September 27, 2013, 07:47:15 pm: Quote from: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 07:11:14 pm

Exactly and Truth Seeker you have been one who has made that claim from the very Sunday his comment was made public. Even when presented with the facts if that primary.. that Akin was the candidate the RNSC supported and Steelman was the Tea Party candidate you India in using Akin to denigrate the Tea Party you so dislike so it is you who is helping spread a misperception.
You are obviously not addressing what I wrote, so instead your predictable personal attack comes along.

I just said it is the PERCEPTION he typifies the TP, and that is TRUE. I did NOT say he was TP.

He is perceived to be TP because other's that made similar goofy religious-social conservative statements WERE TP, namely O'Donnell and Mourdoch.

I'm not against the TP. I wish they were more careful about who they back, in order to improve the PERCEPTION of the TP.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: sinkspur on September 27, 2013, 07:49:26 pm: Quote from: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 07:30:32 pm
Definition of OBSTINATE: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion

Funny you would highlight the three things that have been most missing from this discussion.

All the threats of primarying those Senators who disagree, filling their email boxes with bile, are the furthest things from reason or persuasion.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Bigun on September 27, 2013, 08:09:16 pm: Quote from: DCPatriot on September 27, 2013, 07:37:58 pm
Excuse me....but I haven't seen "reason, arguments, or persuasion" in any SERIOUS attempt, except perhaps Rapunzel.

Virtually all the rest are piling on.....somehow under the impression that joining in with insults and direct attacks....it proves weakness and flaws in Sinkspur's position. It doesn't....to anybody who's been paying attention for the last, oh.....DECADE!

A lot of posters apparently don't like Sinkspur. Instead they seem to prefer an echo chamber.

....to which I say..."NUTZ!!"

Please advise as to what YOU think constitutes a reasoned argument.

Thank you!
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Lando Lincoln on September 27, 2013, 08:11:59 pm: Now it is tedious.
.
.
.
Taking a break. (I'll be back.)
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 08:29:42 pm: Perhaps we should take a little trip to Greece, Portugal or Spain and ask conservatives there how the "let it burn" theory is working out for them. The trouble is that socialism doesn't burn like a fire, it smolders and smolders and smolders until it finally takes its final gasps. The Soviets kept their system going for four generations, and they had nowhere near the sophistication we have to artificially prop up things in the USA today.

No, if OPapaDoc-care is allowed to blossom, it will never go away. Never.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 08:44:21 pm: Quote from: truth_seeker on September 27, 2013, 06:36:18 pm
It is the common perception that he typifies the TP.

Perception is reality. He who has the power to shape perception, has the real power.

What I said was not a personal attack, It was a statement of fact. From the time Romney lost you have blamed Akin equating him with the Tea Party. I have excellent recall memory, but we also have excellent archives here by posters posting history. On November 7th this was your post:

Quote
Obama's play to women is that the GOP is Akin & Mourdock; so I agree with you.

The Tea Party of 2010 was co-opted into the selection of religious whacks who lost easy GOP Senate seats.

The Tea Party needs to be reconstituted back to the economic agenda which led to the 2010 House takeover, instead of giving up more seats in a pursuit of social issue purity.

Anybody that can't see that writing is blind. Bachmann is another example, whether she wins or loses.

Quote
In Missouri and Indiana, the GOP should have won those Senate races. The social issue emhasis, like self-inflicted wounds, turned wins into losses.

The great Tea Party of 2010 got co-opted by the religious faction, whereby they override common sense candidates, in favor of foot-in-mouth idiots.

In poker they say everyone has a "tell" - we all have a "tell" in posting. I have them, you have them everyone has them. You have made it clear you have no respect for the Tea Party candidates, Rush Limbaugh,religious conservatives and all blacks have an IQ of 85.... insisting it is they who have to change not the other way around. That is fine, those are your beliefs, many of us here do not necessarily agree and when you denigrate the Tea Party or even those of us who dare post on conservative forums or listen to Limbaugh I think you do know you are insulting us and you do it to get a reaction. But the "perception" that Akin was Tea Party is something you equated from the time he made his comments, we are just saying you have been shown time and again he was not the Tea Party Candidate and while someone else may have that perception as a so-called self proclaimed conservative it behooves you to tell people who repeat this falacy that it is a falacy.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: truth_seeker on September 27, 2013, 10:16:45 pm: What is false about this sentence? "It is the common perception that he typifies the TP."

That is my comment which invoked such a strong reaction from you.

What I'm about in my own words:

--Winning elections
--Convincing people to vote GOP and for conservatives
--Attracting people to conservative philosophy

The original Tea Party movement was great, because it elected people in 2010.

Not so sure today, if it is positive in the minds of potential voters. One reason would be TP endorsed candidates like Mourdoch and O'Donnell, plus the perceived TP candidate Akins.

Does that make it clear enough, yet?
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: DCPatriot on September 27, 2013, 10:58:23 pm: Quote from: Rapunzel on September 27, 2013, 08:44:21 pm

In poker they say everyone has a "tell" - we all have a "tell" in posting. I have them, you have them everyone has them. Y

LOL! I apologize but it's perfect! :silly:

Vincenzo to Cliff Worley in True Romance

Quote

Vincenzo Coccotti: Sicilians are great liars. The best in the world. I'm Sicilian. My father was the world heavy-weight champion of Sicilian liars.

From growing up with him I learned the pantomime. There are seventeen different things a guy can do when he lies to give himself away. A guys got seventeen pantomimes. A woman's got twenty, but a guy's got seventeen... but, if you know them, like you know your own face, they beat lie detectors all to hell.

Now, what we got here is a little game of show and tell. You don't wanna show me nothin', but you're tellin me everything. I know you know where they are, so tell me before I do some damage you won't walk away from.
Title: Re: ObamaCare and the “let it burn” theory of socialist collapse
Post by: Oceander on September 29, 2013, 01:20:12 pm: Quote from: massadvj on September 27, 2013, 08:29:42 pm
Perhaps we should take a little trip to Greece, Portugal or Spain and ask conservatives there how the "let it burn" theory is working out for them. The trouble is that socialism doesn't burn like a fire, it smolders and smolders and smolders until it finally takes its final gasps. The Soviets kept their system going for four generations, and they had nowhere near the sophistication we have to artificially prop up things in the USA today.

No, if OPapaDoc-care is allowed to blossom, it will never go away. Never.

Actually it will go away, eventually; it just won't go away for us. It took 72 years or so for the Soviet Union to formally collapse - almost 4 generations - but collapse it did; in the meantime, however, the lives of those 4 generations were destroyed, and the psyches of the fifth generation (at least) were so twisted that Russia is still teetering on the edge of the thuggishness and tyranny it took to keep the Soviet Union going for as long as it did. In the meantime, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the collapse itself just did more damage to the then-living Soviet citizens, albeit damage that more of a one-time thing than a continuing degradation.

That is how Obamacare will finally burn itself out: by suddenly and unexpectedly (at least to the average American and the politicians who are then in power) collapsing under its own weight, and taking with it all of the other government welfare (aka "entitlement") programs, after having severely damaged the lives of at least one or two generations of Americans. And the consequences of that collapse, albeit also of the one-time variety - will be extremely painful to all Americans then living - except for the politicians in power at the time, most of whom will be able to protect themselves courtesy of taxpayer money - and will most likely result in a health care system that continues to be - pardon the pun - on life-support for at least a generation following the collapse of Obamacare.

Greece is, in fact, a very good illustration of what will eventually happen here.