The Briefing Room
General Category => Economy/Business => Topic started by: mystery-ak on October 15, 2019, 01:39:41 pm
-
Target Workers Get a Predictable Rude Awakening After Company Implements Minimum Wage Increase
Posted at 8:30 pm on October 14, 2019 by Sister Toldjah
excerpt:
In a shocking display of actual journalism, CNN recently interviewed over 20 current and former Target employees who say that the gradual wage hike (their minimum is now $13) brought along with it less hours and, of course, less take-home pay. Why? Because Target started to look for ways to cut corners:
But some store workers say the wage increases are not helping because their hours are falling, making it difficult to keep their health insurance and in some cases to pay their bills.
[…]
“I got that dollar raise but I’m getting $200 less in my paycheck,†said one, Heather, who started in November at a Florida store working around 40 hours a week. She’s now below 20 some weeks, she said. “I have no idea how I’m going to pay rent or buy food.â€
[…]
Beyond just a drop in earnings that Target workers who spoke with CNN Business have experienced, employees who average fewer than 30 hours of work a week during the year aren’t eligible to qualify for health insurance benefits through the company during annual enrollment season in the spring.
[…]
Target workers who say their hours have dropped have been given a variety of reasons why by their supervisors, including that there were not hours available or that their managers couldn’t fit additional hours in their budgets. Others said they received no explanation for why their hours fell.
One former store director in Ohio who oversaw around 130 employees said hours dropped at the store in the past year for several reasons, including the introduction of self-checkout and elimination of backroom shifts.
more
https://www.redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2019/10/14/target-workers-get-predictable-rude-awakening-company-implements-minimum-wage-increase/ (https://www.redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2019/10/14/target-workers-get-predictable-rude-awakening-company-implements-minimum-wage-increase/)
-
All of the warnings concerning a higher minimum wage are playing out here in CA, and the economic gulf between public & high tech employees and the rest of the state's population is getting wider by the day.
-
All of the warnings concerning a higher minimum wage are playing out here in CA, and the economic gulf between public & high tech employees and the rest of the state's population is getting wider by the day.
Predictions of what would happen were spoken when this stupidity first became a political issue.
Early-adopter cities of this foolishness, like SF and Seattle, saw and continue to see the predicted automation, hours cutbacks, and business closings that were predicted.
Now, as more cities and states adopt this foolishness and national/regional businesses adopt the foolishness in self-defense from government, the long predicted consequences are going national.
The reality denial is also national, unfortunately.
-
I have a very low tolerance for willful economic ignorance.
-
All of the warnings concerning a higher minimum wage are playing out here in CA, and the economic gulf between public & high tech employees and the rest of the state's population is getting wider by the day.
Actually it's playing out wherever they do this, anyone that has run a business in California over a long period of time knows exactly what happens with a minimum wage increase and the size of these increase in today's competitive marketplace just amplify the results. I remember in the mid seventies business was so good that we could absorb the minimum wage increases with minor menu price increases but those days are long gone and far away. As businesses reach the brick wall of employee and service cuts we will all see higher prices and it won't just be the minimum wage employees that have lost income to cut hours or higher taxes that are affected, it will be the seniors on social security and others that haven't gotten wage increases that will feel the pain too.
I'm sure there will be someone that read an article by an expert or posts statistics and graphs from 'government data' that proves my real life experience to be all bullshit, but hey I was the guy that had to cut employee hours, cut payroll and post the price increases that those government stats said were bullshit.
-
I have a very low tolerance for willful economic ignorance.
@Hoodat
It's more purposeful than willful. The uber wealthy Dims like Soros don't like competition with the businesses they own,and they also know they can buy businesses they don't own at a dime to a dollar in bankruptcy sales.
People like Soros and Warren Buffett didn't become multi-billionaires because they were generous with their money.
Collapse the economy and then start fresh as the only ones with the money and the assets to start anew. So what if they lose money for a year or two,once everything is back to normal they will be the only ones standing with the means and the ability to conduct business.
-
Many people have a very dim idea of what they're actually worth. I should know, I was a union member most of my working life.
Our union reps were always ranting about how much we were owed by the places I worked at.
One thing they couldn't do....they couldn't keep our jobs. When a company realizes they don't need you, out you go, union or no union.
If I had the power I might pass a law banning strikes. Not necessarily ban unions, but just have an arbitrator who decides what is just.
I was involved in a number of strikes, and the final result was it would have been better just to go on working instead of striking for the slight "gains" we made.
-
Many people have a very dim idea of what they're actually worth. I should know, I was a union member most of my working life.
Our union reps were always ranting about how much we were owed by the places I worked at.
One thing they couldn't do....they couldn't keep our jobs. When a company realizes they don't need you, out you go, union or no union.
If I had the power I might pass a law banning strikes. Not necessarily ban unions, but just have an arbitrator who decides what is just.
I was involved in a number of strikes, and the final result was it would have been better just to go on working instead of striking for the slight "gains" we made.
I don't know how much that was union. I'm not a union employee. I was talking to a long time co-worker not long ago. We both agreed we under valued ourselves and our work. The newer generations over values themselves. I don't know which opinion is best...but I had a good job for 45 years. Of course, they would have still booted me if the time came. I was pretty fortunate and left on my own terms.
-
Eh, in reading the original CNN article the main complaint was hours cut below the healthcare threshold.
That happens all the time in retail whether you make $8 or $15/hour
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html)
There's a lot of factors involved.
Even the fact that there are more employees to give hours to:
"Target has been adding workers to help it keep up with growth. It has hired more than 35,000 new workers over the last two years and has approximately 360,000 full-time, part-time and seasonal employees, according to its latest annual securities filing."
-
Eh, in reading the original CNN article the main complaint was hours cut below the healthcare threshold.
That happens all the time in retail whether you make $8 or $15/hour
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html)
Guess the idiots who wanted the higher per hour rates didn't factor that in.
-
Eh, in reading the original CNN article the main complaint was hours cut below the healthcare threshold.
That happens all the time in retail whether you make $8 or $15/hour
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/business/target-cutting-hours-wage-increase/index.html)
There's a lot of factors involved.
Even the fact that there are more employees to give hours to:
"Target has been adding workers to help it keep up with growth. It has hired more than 35,000 new workers over the last two years and has approximately 360,000 full-time, part-time and seasonal employees, according to its latest annual securities filing."
There are other government mandates that also contribute to employer inability to employ as many people as they used to, but as an actual employer who knows other employers I can assure you that the minimum wage increases are the primary reason we can no longer afford to employ people in this state.
Ignore the reality if you like, but it will be apparent even to you eventually.
-
There are other government mandates that also contribute to employer inability to employ as many people as they used to, but as an actual employer who knows other employers I can assure you that the minimum wage increases are the primary reason we can no longer afford to employ people in this state.
Ignore the reality if you like, but it will be apparent even to you eventually.
My co-worker just told me that he's pondering quitting his job and going on disability because his wage didn't even enough to pay his rent. He'd rather work odd jobs and collect collect a check than sacrifice 40 hours a week for peanuts.
Wages matter to people for morale and desire to work.
-
My co-worker just told me that he's pondering quitting his job and going on disability because his wage didn't even enough to pay his rent. He'd rather work odd jobs and collect collect a check than sacrifice 40 hours a week for peanuts.
We had a name for people like your "co-worker".
We called them "lazy bums"
-
We had a name for people like your "co-worker".
We called them "lazy bums"
I call them 'Democrats.'.
-
My co-worker just told me that he's pondering quitting his job and going on disability because his wage didn't even enough to pay his rent. He'd rather work odd jobs and collect collect a check than sacrifice 40 hours a week for peanuts.
Wages matter to people for morale and desire to work.
Doesn't matter. the wage is a mathematical function of the job's worth. Nothing will change that.
You can pay entry level workers 30 bucks an hour, and all that will happen is the price of the retail product will increase to compensate.
And everything else will go up likewise, until the 30 dollars is commiserate with the original value.
Except that in the interim, businesses that cannot handle the increase in wage by increasing retail price will fail, and thus make fewer jobs available, and more workers out of work.
That is the pipe dream of minimum wage.
-
I call them 'Democrats.'.
@Hoodat
There is a difference?
-
I call them 'Democrats.'.
That is their name today.
-
Factors of production have a cost,
so capitalists will always choose their least cost alternative.
Some appear surprised/shocked.
-
Going on disability and working odd jobs.
You're disabled or you're not, pick one.
No actually, don't pick. It's not YOUR choice. You don't choose to be disabled, you choose to be dishonest.
-
Going on disability and working odd jobs.
You're disabled or you're not, pick one.
No actually, don't pick. It's not YOUR choice. You don't choose to be disabled, you choose to be dishonest.
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer
Welllllll,there is a pretty flexible line there. When I first got hit with the Agent Orange infestation in my armpits and torso,there was no way I could hold a steady job because I had good days and bad days.
What I could do was occasionally go to Manpower and work a day or two so I could buy enough food to eat and help pay my rent. Even then I had to catch a bus to Manpower because it was cheaper than buying the gas.
Everywhere I worked tried to hire me full-time,but I just couldn't do it because of not wanting to take a chance on sweating and getting the open wounds any more infected,or missing doctors appointments at the VA hospital so I didn't miss work.
Life is often too complicated for simple stands.
-
We had a name for people like your "co-worker".
We called them "lazy bums"
Got a nephew who was laid off. After a couple of months, I asked him when he was going to begin looking for another job.
His answer was when his unemployment ran out.
That is a lazy bum.
-
My co-worker just told me that he's pondering quitting his job and going on disability because his wage didn't even enough to pay his rent. He'd rather work odd jobs and collect collect a check than sacrifice 40 hours a week for peanuts.
Wages matter to people for morale and desire to work.
Working for peanuts didn't bother me when I was 19 years old. Unlike your friend when I wanted more money I knew I had to exert myself. Which I, and everyone else I knew, did as I got older.
Maybe people ought to stop expecting to be able to buy a home and raise kids on their salary as a cashier at the Dollar Store.
-
My local target is hiring for the holidays starting at $15. Part time only but that’s a lot of money.
-
I don't know how much that was union. I'm not a union employee. I was talking to a long time co-worker not long ago. We both agreed we under valued ourselves and our work. The newer generations over values themselves. I don't know which opinion is best...but I had a good job for 45 years. Of course, they would have still booted me if the time came. I was pretty fortunate and left on my own terms.
My story is similar. I had an excellent paying job for 34 years at Motorola, over 25 of them in R&D, and eventually I was obsoleted and offered a severance package. Since I'd been expecting it for years and saved up a bunch of money, I decided to call it "retirement," even though it was not exactly on my own terms. I did see it coming.
-
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer
Welllllll,there is a pretty flexible line there. When I first got hit with the Agent Orange infestation in my armpits and torso,there was no way I could hold a steady job because I had good days and bad days.
What I could do was occasionally go to Manpower and work a day or two so I could buy enough food to eat and help pay my rent. Even then I had to catch a bus to Manpower because it was cheaper than buying the gas.
Everywhere I worked tried to hire me full-time,but I just couldn't do it because of not wanting to take a chance on sweating and getting the open wounds any more infected,or missing doctors appointments at the VA hospital so I didn't miss work.
Life is often too complicated for simple stands.
You said, "there was no way I could hold a steady job".
You didn't choose to go on disability, it happened to you. People today are choosing that it's better to just go on the dole than work for a living. That ain't you.
-
My story is similar. I had an excellent paying job for 34 years at Motorola, over 25 of them in R&D, and eventually I was obsoleted and offered a severance package. Since I'd been expecting it for years and saved up a bunch of money, I decided to call it "retirement," even though it was not exactly on my own terms. I did see it coming.
Yep...I don't know about you @Cyber Liberty but this has been one of the greatest blessings I could have received in my life. Fortunately, I'm a "what if" person and put back money for this joyous time. Oh, I'm not rich by any means. Just comfortable...and happy and stress free.
-
Got a nephew who was laid off. After a couple of months, I asked him when he was going to begin looking for another job.
His answer was when his unemployment ran out.
That is a lazy bum.
@IsailedawayfromFR
The saddest part is by that time he will be used to the unemployment checks rolling in,and will be totally surprised when they stop coming. Teens tend to live in "right now time".
-
You said, "there was no way I could hold a steady job".
You didn't choose to go on disability, it happened to you. People today are choosing that it's better to just go on the dole than work for a living. That ain't you.
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer
Well,I WAS on disability and still am. At the time I was drawing 30 percent disability from the VA. Maybe YOU can live on that kind of money,but when your 70 dollar a month rent is a third of your monthly income,things are going to get tight while you wait for the next check to come in. I ate a lot of peanut butter on expired bread sandwiches back then. Paying 70 bucks a month rent including utilities for a furnished apartment in Denver in the mid-70's tells you I wasn't exactly living large before I lost my job for not showing up for work due to hospital appointments.
Having a job is ALWAYS better than not having a job. Even if your job sucks,you can be looking for a better one while continuing to work. Plus,it's easier to get a job if you can tell prospective employeers,"I have been working at XXX for a x years,but there are no raises and I need more money","I like working for xxx but I need more of a challenge",etc,etc,etc. Potential employers tend to give you the old fish eye if you tell them "I don't have a job now.",and want to know why.
Truth to tell,I LOVE working. True,I am probably not the biggest fan of office jobs you have never met,but I could usually manage to hold a office job long enough to find a real job. I was even taking dish washing jobs in restaurants when I was in my late 30's so I could get free meals and a paycheck until I could do better.
First time I ever got a job with paid vacation I took two weeks off to avoid losing the vacation time,and by the second week I was bored and looking in the help wanted ads for part time work.
Even now I have spent a BUNCH of money putting up a 1800 sq foot workshop with air,heat,full bath,and filling it with tools,antique cars,and car parts,just so I would have something to do when I feel good enough to do something. I feel better just knowing it is there so I can work when I am able to work. If I lose that,you might as well go ahead and shoot me and put me out of my misery.
-
@IsailedawayfromFR
The saddest part is by that time he will be used to the unemployment checks rolling in,and will be totally surprised when they stop coming. Teens tend to live in "right now time".
I wish he were a kid.
Is 42 now married with three kids.
-
I wish he were a kid.
Is 42 now married with three kids.
@IsailedawayfromFR
That is the saddest damn thing I have been told in months. Just look at the message this sends his children. It really pisses me off.
-
I never took unemployment. I guess I could have because I got "laid off," but I didn't feel right asking for it.
I met my Retirement goal of having no mortgage, and I walked with enough cash to buy a Castle in a smaller town. Now I have a nice, distant view of the Casinos in Laughlin across the river.
-
Working for peanuts didn't bother me when I was 19 years old. Unlike your friend when I wanted more money I knew I had to exert myself. Which I, and everyone else I knew, did as I got older.
Maybe people ought to stop expecting to be able to buy a home and raise kids on their salary as a cashier at the Dollar Store.
I don't know how old he is. Probably early-mid 20s. College graduate, smart, and physically limited. This guy shows up every day at 6:30 and goes home every day at 5:30. A dedicated employee. He's not lazy, he's disillusioned and disappointed.
He mentioned some remorse in having gone to school as opposed becoming a police officer. Now that he's physically limited, he cannot be an officer.
I don't blame him for thinking he'd be better off collecting Disability and working under the table.
-
I don't know how old he is. Probably early-mid 20s. College graduate, smart, and physically limited. This guy shows up every day at 6:30 and goes home every day at 5:30. A dedicated employee. He's not lazy, he's disillusioned and disappointed.
He mentioned some remorse in having gone to school as opposed becoming a police officer. Now that he's physically limited, he cannot be an officer.
I don't blame him for thinking he'd be better off collecting Disability and working under the table.
It sounds as though your friend might need disability. My comments are directed at others who think they deserve a ‘living wage’ from their minimum skill, minimum effort job that they have no interest in moving beyond though, with a little ambition and discomfort, they could.
-
It sounds as though your friend might need disability. My comments are directed at others who think they deserve a ‘living wage’ from their minimum skill, minimum effort job that they have no interest in moving beyond though, with a little ambition and discomfort, they could.
I support a living wage. I was of the mindset that the wage should be enough to support 1 adult. So, if you work, you can afford to pay for a roof, food, etc. Basic necessities. I am also of the opinion that it should be directly linked the to cost on living in the specific-market.
BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line (https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/politifact-majority-of-minimum-wage-earners-in-1968-could-support-family/2171338/).
That bit of information is making me rethink my position.
-
I support a living wage. I was of the mindset that the wage should be enough to support 1 adult. So, if you work, you can afford to pay for a roof, food, etc. Basic necessities. I am also of the opinion that it should be directly linked the to cost on living in the specific-market.
BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line (https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/politifact-majority-of-minimum-wage-earners-in-1968-could-support-family/2171338/).
That bit of information is making me rethink my position.
I believe a wage should reflect the actual value to society of the work being performed. Don’t like your wage? Enhance your own self worth. Your way is a bit too stalinesque IMO.
-
I believe a wage should reflect the actual value to society of the work being performed. Don’t like your wage? Enhance your own self worth. Your way is a bit too stalinesque IMO.
I think you're mistaken. I googled Stanist wage policies and I don't think this is what you support. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%931962
"Throughout the Stalinist period, most Soviet workers had been paid for their work based on a piece-rate system. Thus their individual wages were directly tied to the amount of work they produced. This policy was intended to encourage workers to toil and therefore increase production as much as possible."
-
BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line (https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/politifact-majority-of-minimum-wage-earners-in-1968-could-support-family/2171338/).
That bit of information is making me rethink my position.
It can be done today if you tighten your belt and live without unneeded luxury items. But people today don't have the self control nor the will to do so. After all this the age of instant gratification.
-
I think you're mistaken. I googled Stanist wage policies and I don't think this is what you support. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%931962
"Throughout the Stalinist period, most Soviet workers had been paid for their work based on a piece-rate system. Thus their individual wages were directly tied to the amount of work they produced. This policy was intended to encourage workers to toil and therefore increase production as much as possible."
I certainly don’t. I’m more of an invisible hand of the market type.
-
I think you're mistaken. I googled Stanist wage policies and I don't think this is what you support. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%931962
"Throughout the Stalinist period, most Soviet workers had been paid for their work based on a piece-rate system. Thus their individual wages were directly tied to the amount of work they produced. This policy was intended to encourage workers to toil and therefore increase production as much as possible."
Old joke from the old Soviet days: "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us."
Any mention of the Soviet "pay system" that does not recognize this expression is wildly optimistic, to be kind. Here is your Pulitzer Prize, named after that reporter who said, He's seen the soviet system, and it works.
You are a fool if you believe the Soviet pay system is something to be admired and copied.
-
I support a living wage. I was of the mindset that the wage should be enough to support 1 adult. So, if you work, you can afford to pay for a roof, food, etc. Basic necessities. I am also of the opinion that it should be directly linked the to cost on living in the specific-market.
BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line (https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/politifact-majority-of-minimum-wage-earners-in-1968-could-support-family/2171338/).
That bit of information is making me rethink my position.
If you support a living wage, you are basically a socialist. Is that what you are?
-
If you support a living wage, you are basically a socialist. Is that what you are?
(http://rs1128.pbsrc.com/albums/m486/sydhutch/bear-shitting-in-the-woods-bathroom.jpg~c200)
-
I don't know how much that was union. I'm not a union employee. I was talking to a long time co-worker not long ago. We both agreed we under valued ourselves and our work. The newer generations over values themselves. I don't know which opinion is best...but I had a good job for 45 years. Of course, they would have still booted me if the time came. I was pretty fortunate and left on my own terms.
The general rule I followed was produce more than what I was paid for. In doing so you make yourself more valuable to the company and get paid more. It is the way to advance upward.
-
If you support a living wage, you are basically a socialist. Is that what you are?
What if we support a living wage and get rid of most government assistance?
-
The general rule I followed was produce more than what I was paid for. In doing so you make yourself more valuable to the company and get paid more. It is the way to advance upward.
And for that, the gen-weenies cal us "saps." Tough. I cried all the way to my retirement Castle in BHC.
(Hey, @DB, how are you liking the desert?)
-
I think you're mistaken. I googled Stanist wage policies and I don't think this is what you support. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%931962
"Throughout the Stalinist period, most Soviet workers had been paid for their work based on a piece-rate system. Thus their individual wages were directly tied to the amount of work they produced. This policy was intended to encourage workers to toil and therefore increase production as much as possible."
But people today "can't live" without their cell phone, Internet, air conditioning, electronic toys, etc, etc... The families you speak of then would be considered dirt poor these days but they didn't "know better". We were one of them.
In 1956 gas and electricity were cheap. Many people didn't have a phone or had a party line. These things weren't loaded down with taxes and fees. Houses were basic and weren't burdened with a large number of minimum energy/safety/fire/structural requirements along with permits/fees and taxes. Every aspect of our lives have slowly been regulated and taxed "for our own good" until we are consumed by all the added weight and wonder what happened. And in spite of all that continue to pile more on.
-
What if we support a living wage and get rid of most government assistance?
If that means "Government-set wages," then the argument is ridiculous. All that does is shift the Welfare burden to employers by forcing them to pay more than what their unambitious employees are worth. Meanwhile, the "government assistance" will continue to flow because the majority of voters accept it in some form, and will throw any politician that threatens the gravy train straight out of office, in favor of some socialist promising to keep the checks coming.
There are no shortages of sad sacks to trot out when the politicians need the tears to flow. And there are plenty of socialists fools available to keep the shipwreck afloat somehow.
-
The general rule I followed was produce more than what I was paid for. In doing so you make yourself more valuable to the company and get paid more. It is the way to advance upward.
I always tried to produce less than my cost to the company, and then have Uncle Sugar force the big evil corporations I worked for to pay me a "living wage". Turns out companies don't go into business to lose money, and zero isn't much to live on.
-
But people today "can't live" without their cell phone, Internet, air conditioning, electronic toys, etc, etc... The families you speak of then would be considered dirt poor these days but they didn't "know better". We were one of them.
In 1956 gas and electricity were cheap. Many people didn't have a phone or had a party line. These things weren't loaded down with taxes and fees. Houses were basic and weren't burdened with a large number of minimum energy/safety/fire/structural requirements along with permits/fees and taxes. Every aspect of our lives have slowly been regulated and taxed "for our own good" until we are consumed by all the added weight and wonder what happened. And in spite of all that continue to pile more on.
A great amout of households already live without internet:
https://connectednation.org/blog/2019/10/09/new-u-s-census-findings-number-of-households-without-internet-access/
Phone plans can be found for $30 a month. AC isn't guaranteed, even if you have it, and it breaks, you might have to rely on fans.
Gas and electricity are still relatively cheap in this country.
-
I think you're mistaken. I googled Stanist wage policies and I don't think this is what you support. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%931962
"Throughout the Stalinist period, most Soviet workers had been paid for their work based on a piece-rate system. Thus their individual wages were directly tied to the amount of work they produced. This policy was intended to encourage workers to toil and therefore increase production as much as possible."
I never thought I'd see a day when somebody would come on TBR and speak of Stalin in such glowing terms. Unless you mean to demonstrate how that quoted part was repeatedly violated by Stalin's band of merry thugs, you are in for an awakening. Unless you don't.
-
A great amout of households already live without internet:
https://connectednation.org/blog/2019/10/09/new-u-s-census-findings-number-of-households-without-internet-access/
Phone plans can be found for $30 a month. AC isn't guaranteed, even if you have it, and it breaks, you might have to rely on fans.
Gas and electricity are still relatively cheap in this country.
You contradict yourself. You are saying these things are cheap but people can't afford them because they aren't paid enough...
-
You contradict yourself. You are saying these things are cheap but people can't afford them because they aren't paid enough...
I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.
They're cheap enough that it's probably better to do it that way than subsidize everyone with SNAP and tax credits
-
I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.
No, that is not how it works.
Wage increase forces product increase.
Value is separate from the actual dollar.
Money is just a way of keeping score.
-
Labor is a percentage of cost.
Increase the cost of labor, and general cost will necessarily increase.
Dictating a price for labor above it's value simply raises the cost of production above it's value, raising the cost of living. You are chasing your tail, because what happens next is government assistance to cover the cost of living, and more increase wage dictated.
Inevitably that is an exponential spiral that also inevitably ends with government dictating a low cost of goods (instant full on socialism). With no incentive to work hard for the laborer, and no incentive to profit well for the entrepreneur, the whole thing collapses into communism, which will predictably collapse in a single generation.
Them that do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
-
Got a nephew who was laid off. After a couple of months, I asked him when he was going to begin looking for another job.
His answer was when his unemployment ran out.
That is a lazy bum.
Got laid off in '82 (oil price crash). Spent a year looking for work, had one nibble, but it paid less than my (then) nontaxable unemployment check, and I didn't have to buy gas to get to work. It also paid so much less than my former pay I didn't have to accept the offer, by law, and could still draw unemployment.
What brought in the most money to live on?
I still found plenty to do, in between filling out applications and knocking on doors...
-
Labor is a percentage of cost.
Increase the cost of labor, and general cost will necessarily increase.
Dictating a price for labor above it's value simply raises the cost of production above it's value, raising the cost of living. You are chasing your tail, because what happens next is government assistance to cover the cost of living, and more increase wage dictated.
Inevitably that is an exponential spiral that also inevitably ends with government dictating a low cost of goods (instant full on socialism). With no incentive to work hard for the laborer, and no incentive to profit well for the entrepreneur, the whole thing collapses into communism, which will predictably collapse in a single generation.
Them that do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production (https://www.brookings.edu/research/thirteen-facts-about-wage-growth/). We're working more, producing more, and making less money.
(https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/thp_20170926_thirteen_facts_wage_growth_figb.jpg)
-
What if we support a living wage and get rid of most government assistance?
@OfTheCross
Interesting theory,but like everything else that flies in the face of human nature,it will never work because there are ALWAYS people willing to live right on the edge of starvation and homelessness as long as they don't have to work. They will lie,they will steal,they will even sometimes purposely injure themselves in order to get paid for sleeping in. The only thing they WON'T do is go to work.
IMHO,the ONLY practical solution to this is to DEMAND that churches and other charities spend a MINIMUM of 75 percent (more would be betta) of the income they get to provide food,clothing,medical care,and temporary housing to the indigent. I don't see this happening,though. People in the "charity biz" tend to see the money that comes in as THEIR money,and they want to use it to build their empire on. As a result,the various preachers,priests,shamans,and other witch doctors will shriek in horror and demand any congressman that votes to do that be thrown out of office.
No one organization is as guilty of this as the Catholic Church. Those bastards give money,food,clothing,and shelter to a lot (most) of the illegals entering the country because they KNOW the illegals from the Catholic Countries to the south of us will donate a minimum of 10 percent of their welfare money to the Catholic Church,and 100 percent of their votes to whoever their local Priest tells them to vote for.
You have to squint and look really hard to tell the difference between organized crime and organized religion. Both want you to kiss their rings.
Not that the "lesser" religions are any better. The fact that they take in less only means they are less successful as shearing the sheep.
-
You contradict yourself. You are saying these things are cheap but people can't afford them because they aren't paid enough...
@DB
Therein lies the problem. We ALL have different definitions,depending on how and where we grew up,where we have worked,and how much it costs us to live our normal lives today. There are places you can buy a house and small lot for 50k,or even less. There are also other places where 50k isn't even a down payment for a small apartment.
"Cheap" and "expensive" are relative words.
I remember being stunned while watching "the price is right" on teebee back in the 60's,and one woman who seemed to be in her early 30's guessed the price of a new Thunderbird to be "50 THOUSAND DOLLARS!" at the showcase. I almost lost my breath when it occurred to me she actually meant it. At MOST,a fully-equipped T-Bird back then was maybe 6 grand. This wasn't a stupid woman,either. Dressed nicely,and was well-spoken and seemed to be bright.
Right away I figured out she was a Trust Fund Child and had no idea what anything cost. Later on I figured out she might have been from somewhere like Manhattan,where most people live in apartments and take taxi's or buses to work or play because it's cheaper and more practical than owning a car. People like Bawa Walters,who has never driven a car in her life if you eliminate the Texaco commercial she was in back in the 60's,that show this "news woman" telling everyone about how she would never consider using any other gas than Texaco in her convertible,and then putting the car in gear and seeming to drive away. She later confessed she didn't even know how to put the car into gear until she was shown,and that she only drove a few feet and then stopped. Hey! If you can't trust a woman like that to tell you the truth in the news,who CAN you trust?
Good thing she had "Uncle Walter" sitting in the CBS News "command chair",ain't it? The SOB that lied about Tet of 68 on-air,and KNEW he was lying,but lied to try to prevent a Republican President from looking like he had a victory against the North Vietnamese after nothing but failure after failure by the Kennedy Klan.
I still refuse to watch CBS News.
-
BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line (https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/politifact-majority-of-minimum-wage-earners-in-1968-could-support-family/2171338/).
Go back to the standard of living for 1968, including what is spent on phones, TV, cars, etc.
-
Go back to the standard of living for 1968, including what is spent on phones, TV, cars, etc.
@thackney
Not to mention rent or house payment. I was living in Virginia Beach,Va in 1971 or so,and brand new 2 or 3br houses with carports were selling for 18 grand,with interest rates below 4 percent,and no down if you had a VA loan.
You could buy a new car or pu truck for 1500 bucks,and gas was from 18 to 25 cents per gallon.
-
The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production (https://www.brookings.edu/research/thirteen-facts-about-wage-growth/). We're working more, producing more, and making less money.
@OfTheCross
First of all, nonsense. Very few people work 60-80 hrs a week, Heck, most folks hardly work 40 hrs. The work ethic this country was imbued with is nearly gone.
As far as labor not keeping up with production, the two do not correlate (are not tied).
-
@OfTheCross
First of all, nonsense. Very few people work 60-80 hrs a week, Heck, most folks hardly work 40 hrs. The work ethic this country was imbued with is nearly gone.
As far as labor not keeping up with production, the two do not correlate (are not tied).
@roamer_1
I don't think I turned down a single hour my entire work history. A 50 hour week was a short week for me. The first time I had a job with paid vacation,I was forced to take two weeks or lose it,so I did. By the end of the first week I caught myself looking at part time help wanted ads in the paper so I would have something to do. Never took over a week at a time after that.
After I was forced into medical retirement,I had a 1800 sq ft workshop put up,and filled it with tools and antique cars and parts so I would have something to when I feel good enough to do something.
I miss work like a junkie misses a fix.
-
I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.
Incredible ignorance on parade. Not one drop of understanding that forcing wages up forces the prices of the goods produced up as well, leaving the unskilled worker no better off at all.
I marvel at your ability to form words.
-
I don't think I turned down a single hour my entire work history. A 50 hour week was a short week for me. The first time I had a job with paid vacation,I was forced to take two weeks or lose it,so I did. By the end of the first week I caught myself looking at part time help wanted ads in the paper so I would have something to do. Never took over a week at a time after that.
@sneakypete
Me too. My first company was started around age 18... And I have not worked for anyone but myself since around 22... So like all business owners, my lessons were learned raw.
Other than rain, I did not have days off. Other than when I walked off (off season), I have never had a vacation, other than long range traveling to pick up a machine, or a car for business... I worked most of my life from sun up until sundown, and then did books and repairs after darkness fell. Roundup and haying merely added more work,and I kept up my calls in spite of it, and did ranch chores every day too.
Nothing pisses me off more than crybabies whining that their paper route or job at Mickey D's doesn't produce a 'living wage'... Folks don't have a clue what it means to actually work anymore, not to mention get ahead.
But I do.
After I was forced into medical retirement,I had a 1800 sq ft workshop put up,and filled it with tools and antique cars and parts so I would have something to when I feel good enough to do something.
I miss work like a junkie misses a fix.
I heard that. STILL trying to keep a hand in the game. Which is why I fix pooters. How I wish I had my bones back so I could play a real game... Good Lord willin and the creeks don't rise...
:beer:
-
The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production (https://www.brookings.edu/research/thirteen-facts-about-wage-growth/). We're working more, producing more, and making less money.
That's known as corporate greed.
-
That's known as corporate greed.
Better tools and equipment raise production faster than wages. Smart companies invest for improvement which makes a stronger company for the employees.
It is silly to think they would always rise the same.
-
@sneakypete
Nothing pisses me off more than crybabies whining that their paper route or job at Mickey D's doesn't produce a 'living wage'... Folks don't have a clue what it means to actually work anymore, not to mention get ahead.
@roamer_1
The thing that drives me nuts is all those people are missing out on the feeling of satisfaction bordering on joy that comes with doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. So what if that sounds like dog treats? Damned if it doesn't make a dog happy to be rewarded for doing a good job,and humans are no different.
On top of that,"happy" is it's own reward because someone that is happy gets sick less often and lives longer. It works kinda like a "reverse avalanche. You start at the bottom,and as the rewards increase,your happiness increases. When you happiness increases,you sleep better and your appetite AND metabolism increase,and you have more energy and enthusiasm for your work. It's just win/win any way you want to look at it.
Especially when you consider the option,which is to have no work,and nothing to look forward to but finding a way to fill more dead time. I have honestly never seen anyone happy who has never held an actual job. Has nothing to do with money,either. Look at all the trust fund children that turn into junkies,go off and join ISIS,etc,etc,etc. Sitting on your ass and doing nothing is just contrary to human nature.
MY beliefs,and I am sticking to them.
-
That's known as corporate greed.
@libertybele
Yeah,and taxes to pay for all the welfare programs for states as well as people has nothing to do with it,right?
I don't want to shock you,but it is an established FACT that businesses compete for business,and one way they compete is to offer lower prices. The company that sells the identical dollar item a nickel cheaper sells more of them,and by virtue of that make more money.
Unless,of course,they are subsidized by the goobermint. Then they always lose money and need more grants. Funny how that works out,ain't it?
-
The only reason this thread is still running is because somebody who has Stalinist nostalgia decided to regale us with the wonderful times brought to the Russian people by his wage policies to stamp out wage inequality for all but the Nomenklatura.
-
The thing that drives me nuts is all those people are missing out on the feeling of satisfaction bordering on joy that comes with doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. So what if that sounds like dog treats? Damned if it doesn't make a dog happy to be rewarded for doing a good job,and humans are no different.
@sneakypete
For me it's never been about the money... Like I said upthread, money's just a way of keeping score.
For me the reward is in the craft. Whether cowboying, bushcrafting, building a house or a dresser or a birch bark canoe, the art of moving things and tying down loads, Rebuilding a motor, Skyjacking a truck, anything mechanical, the beauty of well crafted code - For me it is in the mastery. And in the recognition of folks that really matter... The old masters whose praise comes damn hard and means something when it does come. That's when you know you are on target.
But yeah. Satisfaction. Doesn't matter which way... A good job well done has always given me that.
Worry about the work and the money will come.
MY beliefs,and I am sticking to them.
Damn well right.
-
Continued demonstration that "share the wealth" scams essentially always end in "share the poverty".
-
Continued demonstration that "share the wealth" scams essentially always end in "share the poverty".
That's right. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.
-
The only reason this thread is still running is because somebody who has Stalinist nostalgia decided to regale us with the wonderful times brought to the Russian people by his wage policies to stamp out wage inequality for all but the Nomenklatura.
@Cyber Liberty
You have to cut them some slack. Remember,many,many posters are too young to remember where,when,and why the term "Potemkin village" was created,if they have even heard the term.
I went to Russia a couple of times right after the collapse of the USSR,and it was amazing to hear all the hilarious jokes the Russians used to tell each other about their system. Stuff like "today's slogan is,"We pretend to work,and they pretend to pay us!"
What wasn't hilarious was having them tell you that everybody had a grandmother or grandfather living with the family because their had to be somebody in each family free during the day to stand in the fish line at the fish store,the meat line at the meat store,the shoe line at the department store,and even,honest to GAWD,the "light bulb line at the light bulb store." Worse,once you stood in line at the light bulb store,there was no guarantee there would be any light bulbs left once you got to the front of the line,even if there were you couldn't buy one unless you had the old one to trade in. The Soviets did that in order to keep a "light bulb black market" from forming.
Oh yeah,the store workers mostly got off work at the same time as the factory workers,so there was no such thing as stopping by after work. If you didn't have an elderly relative living with you to shop for you during the day,you had to pay one of your neighbors elderly relatives to shop for you while he was shopping for them. You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people.
-
@Cyber Liberty
You have to cut them some slack. Remember,many,many posters are too young to remember where,when,and why the term "Potemkin village" was created,if they have even heard the term.
I went to Russia a couple of times right after the collapse of the USSR,and it was amazing to hear all the hilarious jokes the Russians used to tell each other about their system. Stuff like "today's slogan is,"We pretend to work,and they pretend to pay us!"
What wasn't hilarious was having them tell you that everybody had a grandmother or grandfather living with the family because their had to be somebody in each family free during the day to stand in the fish line at the fish store,the meat line at the meat store,the shoe line at the department store,and even,honest to GAWD,the "light bulb line at the light bulb store." Worse,once you stood in line at the light bulb store,there was no guarantee there would be any light bulbs left once you got to the front of the line,even if there were you couldn't buy one unless you had the old one to trade in. The Soviets did that in order to keep a "light bulb black market" from forming.
Oh yeah,the store workers mostly got off work at the same time as the factory workers,so there was no such thing as stopping by after work. If you didn't have an elderly relative living with you to shop for you during the day,you had to pay one of your neighbors elderly relatives to shop for you while he was shopping for them. You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people.
"You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people."
I get highly irritated when I read quotes from some liberal westerners questioning why we have so many choices in our stores.
I remember reading Michael Palin's (Monty Python) memoir about when he first went into an American grocery store and was astounded at the choices available just for breakfast cereal.
His quote was something to the effect that "surely we don't need that many different kinds of cereal."
That was similar to Bernie "The Idiot" Sanders's statement about too many deodorant brands.
It's a shame they couldn't have been made to live in one of those old socialist republics for a long period of time where they might have just one choice or many times no choice. I'm sure they'd both been very happy with that situation. *****rollingeyes*****
-
"You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people."
I get highly irritated when I read quotes from some liberal westerners questioning why we have so many choices in our stores.
I remember reading Michael Palin's (Monty Python) memoir about when he first went into an American grocery store and was astounded at the choices available just for breakfast cereal.
His quote was something to the effect that "surely we don't need that many different kinds of cereal."
That was similar to Bernie "The Idiot" Sanders's statement about too many deodorant brands.
It's a shame they couldn't have been made to live in one of those old socialist republics for a long period of time where they might have just one choice or many times no choice. I'm sure they'd both been very happy with that situation. *****rollingeyes*****
Many years ago my brother brought 2 of his co-workers here for a 4th of July celebration. They were just recently here. I loved talking to them. The thing that amazed me most was how they loved going to the grocery store. Huge selections and no line to get in. I realized how we are blessed but didn't really understand until talking to them. I laughed and asked about the lines to get out and they looked at me like I had two heads.
-
Got laid off in '82 (oil price crash). Spent a year looking for work, had one nibble, but it paid less than my (then) nontaxable unemployment check, and I didn't have to buy gas to get to work. It also paid so much less than my former pay I didn't have to accept the offer, by law, and could still draw unemployment.
What brought in the most money to live on?
I still found plenty to do, in between filling out applications and knocking on doors...
Got laid off after 27 years and it took me 2 years to find another fulltime job. In between my family tightened the belt and survived, with a couple of consulting jobs I could find.
It was a dark time, but resulted in the best possible situation I could dream about.
God knows what is best for us, no matter what us humans think.
-
The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production (https://www.brookings.edu/research/thirteen-facts-about-wage-growth/). We're working more, producing more, and making less money.
(https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/thp_20170926_thirteen_facts_wage_growth_figb.jpg)
How much of that productivity is the result of mechaniztion? One guy with a couple of computers can do more now than a small army could 20 years ago, if the line is set up right.
-
@OfTheCross
Interesting theory,but like everything else that flies in the face of human nature,it will never work because there are ALWAYS people willing to live right on the edge of starvation and homelessness as long as they don't have to work. They will lie,they will steal,they will even sometimes purposely injure themselves in order to get paid for sleeping in. The only thing they WON'T do is go to work.
IMHO,the ONLY practical solution to this is to DEMAND that churches and other charities spend a MINIMUM of 75 percent (more would be betta) of the income they get to provide food,clothing,medical care,and temporary housing to the indigent. I don't see this happening,though. People in the "charity biz" tend to see the money that comes in as THEIR money,and they want to use it to build their empire on. As a result,the various preachers,priests,shamans,and other witch doctors will shriek in horror and demand any congressman that votes to do that be thrown out of office.
No one organization is as guilty of this as the Catholic Church. Those bastards give money,food,clothing,and shelter to a lot (most) of the illegals entering the country because they KNOW the illegals from the Catholic Countries to the south of us will donate a minimum of 10 percent of their welfare money to the Catholic Church,and 100 percent of their votes to whoever their local Priest tells them to vote for.
You have to squint and look really hard to tell the difference between organized crime and organized religion. Both want you to kiss their rings.
Not that the "lesser" religions are any better. The fact that they take in less only means they are less successful as shearing the sheep.
That's because there are a bunch of protestant denominations which are doing the same thing. Add them all up, and I'd wager the catholic effort pales.
Don't ignore, either that the federally sponsored ($6K a head) immigrant enablers are likely only using the name, and are as ecclesiastically connected with the denomination as Federal Express is with the Federal Government.
I would like to see the laws enforced against illegal immigration, and take whatever aid to their countries of origin, not here, no matter who sends it.
-
@thackney
Not to mention rent or house payment. I was living in Virginia Beach,Va in 1971 or so,and brand new 2 or 3br houses with carports were selling for 18 grand,with interest rates below 4 percent,and no down if you had a VA loan.
You could buy a new car or pu truck for 1500 bucks,and gas was from 18 to 25 cents per gallon.
Yeah, and minimum wage was $1.65
-
Incredible ignorance on parade. Not one drop of understanding that forcing wages up forces the prices of the goods produced up as well, leaving the unskilled worker no better off at all.
I marvel at your ability to form words.
You left out the government cut--as the numbers increase, so do the taxes on them.
-
You left out the government cut--as the numbers increase, so do the taxes on them.
I was trying to keep it simple. :shrug:
-
I was trying to keep it simple. :shrug:
The old KISS method. Man I forgot about that old axiom.
-
Yeah, and minimum wage was $1.65
@Smokin Joe
Yeah,and a man and wife,both earning minimum wage,could afford to buy a new house.
-
@sneakypete
For me it's never been about the money... Like I said upthread, money's just a way of keeping score.
For me the reward is in the craft. Whether cowboying, bushcrafting, building a house or a dresser or a birch bark canoe, the art of moving things and tying down loads, Rebuilding a motor, Skyjacking a truck, anything mechanical, the beauty of well crafted code - For me it is in the mastery. And in the recognition of folks that really matter... The old masters whose praise comes damn hard and means something when it does come. That's when you know you are on target.
But yeah. Satisfaction. Doesn't matter which way... A good job well done has always given me that.
Worry about the work and the money will come.
Damn well right.
I like to work, not just to keep busy, but to accomplish something, too. Anything worth doing is worth doing as well as you can. If I can improve on that, then I gain even more satisfaction.
-
@Smokin Joe
Yeah,and a man and wife,both earning minimum wage,could afford to buy a new house.
Yep. Over the road truckers were making $100 a week. Considered 'big bucks', and I was knocking back $2.35/hr on a marine construction crew. It was hard work, but it got me in the best shape of my life.
-
The old KISS method. Man I forgot about that old axiom.
Well, if government is involved, simple is out.
(And lately, it seems government is involved in everything....)
-
@sneakypete
For me it's never been about the money... Like I said upthread, money's just a way of keeping score.
For me the reward is in the craft. Whether cowboying, bushcrafting, building a house or a dresser or a birch bark canoe, the art of moving things and tying down loads, Rebuilding a motor, Skyjacking a truck, anything mechanical, the beauty of well crafted code - For me it is in the mastery. And in the recognition of folks that really matter... The old masters whose praise comes damn hard and means something when it does come. That's when you know you are on target.
But yeah. Satisfaction. Doesn't matter which way... A good job well done has always given me that.
Worry about the work and the money will come.
Damn well right.
@roamer_1
I am sorry to say I think this is a generational problem,and the grandparents of the current pre-teens are the ones mostly responsible for raising two generations of slackers.
MY generation,and most likely you fit into that category too,were taught to "Take pride in your work and yourself by doing everything you do to the best of your ability,no matter how menial the work seems to be". I remember a cadre in jumpschool getting in my face and screaming something like "You are useless and will never become a paratrooper! I am going to personally see that you wash out of the course!" Which of course pissed 17 year old me off,and I got right back in his face and told him that he and 3 more MF's like him weren't man enough to chase me off..
Let's just say the next couple of days could safely be described as "challenging". After a few days he backed off,looked at me,smiled,and walked away.
Now jump school has quotas. They didn't need quotas during WW-2,the Korean War,or the VN War,but suddenly,they need quotas to graduate people as paratroopers who will NEVER parachute into combat because not 1 in a thousand of them have the strength or the determination to carry the equipment a soldier on his own behind enemy lines needs to carry. Or truthfully,would even be willing to do it if they could. They just want the badge for career enhancement opportunities.
The last two generations seem to have mostly been taught "union rules",which state "Do the absolute minimum you have to do to keep from being fired."
If this doesn't change America will no longer exist.
Providing of course that it isn't already too late to change.
-
@roamer_1
I am sorry to say I think this is a generational problem,and the grandparents of the current pre-teens are the ones mostly responsible for raising two generations of slackers.
MY generation,and most likely you fit into that category too,were taught to "Take pride in your work and yourself by doing everything you do to the best of your ability,no matter how menial the work seems to be".
The last two generations seem to have mostly been taught "union rules",which state "Do the absolute minimum you have to do to keep from being fired."
If this doesn't change America will no longer exist.
Providing of course that it isn't already too late to change.
I agree with you @sneakypete , but I have a different angle on that...
I think it is because grandparents are largely absent - They made their money and went south to have fun... That deprives the children of the wisdom of the patriarch and matriarch, who are also not there to throttle down the passions of the mother and father, keeping them steady.
And absentee fathers - Fathers are the ones that have traditionally been the teachers of the work ethic. That ain't altogether true - Mamma insisted on chores, but more from the position of needing the help. It was the old man who insisted on chores and made you do it over if you didn't do it right, and would kick your a$$ for you if you decided not to.
And I am partly guilty of that last one... I worked so hard and so long because baby needs new shoes, that by the time I figured out I was doing wrong, my kids were strangers to me. That did damage, even though I tried to fix it once I found out.
-
I agree with you @sneakypete , but I have a different angle on that...
I think it is because grandparents are largely absent - They made their money and went south to have fun... That deprives the children of the wisdom of the patriarch and matriarch, who are also not there to throttle down the passions of the mother and father, keeping them steady.
And absentee fathers - Fathers are the ones that have traditionally been the teachers of the work ethic. That ain't altogether true - Mamma insisted on chores, but more from the position of needing the help. It was the old man who insisted on chores and made you do it over if you didn't do it right, and would kick your a$$ for you if you decided not to.
And I am partly guilty of that last one... I worked so hard and so long because baby needs new shoes, that by the time I figured out I was doing wrong, my kids were strangers to me. That did damage, even though I tried to fix it once I found out.
Along those lines of thought, we are a more mobile society now. Many now move away from family as I did. It is easier to do now than a few generations ago.
-
Along those lines of thought, we are a more mobile society now. Many now move away from family as I did. It is easier to do now than a few generations ago.
@thackney
Not just easier,but essential for many career fields. If the work you do best and want/need to do isn't available where you live,you have to go to the work because it sure as hell isn't coming to you.
-
Along those lines of thought, we are a more mobile society now. Many now move away from family as I did. It is easier to do now than a few generations ago.
That's right... And I question if that is a good idea.
An example:
Who was it that thought it a good idea to take rowdy party oriented teenagers, put them all together a thousand miles from home, and expect them to learn and make good decisions?
There is something innately foolish in the very concept.
-
That's right... And I question if that is a good idea.
An example:
Who was it that thought it a good idea to take rowdy party oriented teenagers, put them all together a thousand miles from home, and expect them to learn and make good decisions?
There is something innately foolish in the very concept.
Those who survive learn the hard way. If they'd been back home, they might well have been well enough behaved to learn the same lessons more vicariously.
I had a good foundation, but learned those rules were there for a reason the hard way. The older I got, the more I got back to those basics. At least I had that to fall back on.
-
Those who survive learn the hard way. If they'd been back home, they might well have been well enough behaved to learn the same lessons more vicariously.
I had a good foundation, but learned those rules were there for a reason the hard way. The older I got, the more I got back to those basics. At least I had that to fall back on.
That's right... You and I have a similar story... Other than I never left home for very long... So I don't have the excuse. Still, return I did. Gratefully.
-
That's right... And I question if that is a good idea.
An example:
Who was it that thought it a good idea to take rowdy party oriented teenagers, put them all together a thousand miles from home, and expect them to learn and make good decisions?
There is something innately foolish in the very concept.
The Amish?
-
The Amish?
Rumspringa. You have a point.