The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: kevindavis007 on July 24, 2017, 12:35:21 pm
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Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul said Sunday there’s a reason why buying American-made goods is not always the best option: cost.
“You know, I think all of us have this goal to buy American, but we have to think this thing through,” Paul told Jake Tapper on CNN’s "State of the Union."
Tapper was pressing Paul on why President Donald Trump touted "Made in the USA" goods all week but still hires foreign workers at his Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida. Tapper also noted that Trump's company manufacturers a bevy of Trump-branded clothing products abroad.
The libertarian-leaning Paul said global trade, the same kind that candidate Trump slammed for “ripping off” the U.S., allows Americans to buy cheaper goods, stretching their dollars so they can then pay for things like a vacation or a new vehicle.
“It used to be a shirt, just a regular button-up shirt, might be $20, $25, and still might be in places. And at Wal-Mart, it's $7," Paul said. "And so that savings, though, allows working-class people to have savings to get a television set, to go on vacation, to buy gas for their truck. So trade is really a good thing.”
As a candidate, Trump defended his decision to manufacture some of his own products abroad, especially apparel, characterizing himself as someone who was simply making smart business decisions based on the costs.
In response to Paul's answer, Tapper noted that the members of Mar-a-Lago, where "the membership fee is $200,000 a year," were not in the same situation as average American workers.
Paul, who ran against Trump for the GOP presidential nomination, did concede that using foreign workers at Mar-a-Lago was "different," but he did not elaborate.
Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/23/rand-paul-trump-foreign-workers-240858?cmpid=sf
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During the campaign, Trump himself said that prices would likely go up "a little" but a little to Trump is a far cry from what most of us consider to be "a little".
For me, $20 per week is not "a little".
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During the campaign, Trump himself said that prices would likely go up "a little" but a little to Trump is a far cry from what most of us consider to be "a little".
For me, $20 per week is not "a little".
Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.
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I'll buy some items cheap. For instance, T-shirts in season wear that won't last. However, I'll spend more on quality items at specialty stores for work and outdoor purposes.
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Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.
@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long? Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?
Some times lower cost is good. Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker. I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else. Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper. Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps. It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.
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@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long? Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?
Some times lower cost is good. Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker. I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else. Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper. Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps. It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.
Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.
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Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.
The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things. They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed. They tell the bed makers what materials they can use. Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom. Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.
Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.
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@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long? Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?
Some times lower cost is good. Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker. I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else. Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper. Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps. It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.
Then, fine, buy where you want. The idea is to purchase where you get the best value for your needs, not to just blindly buy US.
Note, though, that what you state about quality isn't always the case. A former client of mine tried hard to keep his garment manufacturing in the US, but found that they had fewer complaints on the overflow he gave to China. Eventually, they had to give all the business to China because "they know garments!" and they couldn't compete with the extra cost and higher complaints by staying with US.
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The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things. They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed. They tell the bed makers what materials they can use. Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom. Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.
Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.
Sounds like you're going against Trump, agreeing with Tapper's line of questioning. Interesting.
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The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things. They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed. They tell the bed makers what materials they can use. Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom. Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.
Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.
Even it means me paying $25 for a simple t-shirt or $100 for a streaming device. Thank you, but no thank you.
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Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.
I'm not a fan of globalism in the sense of globally managed trade. I think nations should be free to make and break trade deals at will without interference from a global trade authority.
However the so called anti globalists want something far worse. They want trade restricted and controlled by government and that restricts the choices of the individual. In the most extreme anti globalist cases, clowns like TOS's CringingNegativityNetwork don't even want us to sell products outside the country. He said its better to subsidize ethanol than for farmers to sell their products overseas at a discount. He's a big fan of punishing tariffs and if those don't work, more extreme measures should be taken including going so far as punishing the consumer with criminal prosecution.
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Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.
That is not quite right. I pay more for tee shirts through Duluth Trading Company. But they last for years, and on me, that's saying something. And because I sought out those good tee shirts, I don't have to buy new ones every 6 months.
Same with hikers. Same with muks - My current muks are Canadian made, and I have had them for 15 years. a pair of US made Sorels last me but a couple winters... and cost more.
American industry should not have gone cheap. I don't really care what it costs, so long as it is durable. nothing, or at least damn little is made with durability anymore. And it's a crying shame.
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I try to buy on quality first, then on price, depending on what's needed. If I need something for a one time use, i'll buy the cheapest option.
Where it's made is generally irrelevant, but all things being equal I will opt for the made in the USA option.
But that isn't always the best option.
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Then, fine, buy where you want. The idea is to purchase where you get the best value for your needs, not to just blindly buy US.
Note, though, that what you state about quality isn't always the case. A former client of mine tried hard to keep his garment manufacturing in the US, but found that they had fewer complaints on the overflow he gave to China. Eventually, they had to give all the business to China because "they know garments!" and they couldn't compete with the extra cost and higher complaints by staying with US.
@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations. They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.
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Pricey "made in America" is no guarantee of quality.
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Pricey "made in America" is no guarantee of quality.
The 1970s definitely taught us that.
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@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations. They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.
Plus, American education is so bad that most Americans can't understand that their wages should be lower than others, to compete.
Oversimplified:
Labor cost = Wages + Other Costs, where Other Costs includes things like OSHA protections. So OSHA protections mean Americans should be accepting lower wages to be competitive with the market, all things being equal.
Yet Americans seem to think they should, by birthright, be paid more than their competitors, without having to produce a superior product or more of it.
We need to reduce other burdens on US companies, but the bottom line is that we must also be competitive.
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I try to buy on quality first, then on price, depending on what's needed. If I need something for a one time use, i'll buy the cheapest option.
Where it's made is generally irrelevant, but all things being equal I will opt for the made in the USA option.
But that isn't always the best option.
You know what's dumb? Here I sit at my tech bench, and the tools upon it... I dunno, there's maybe 100 bucks worth of crappy tools... The most expensive, outside of my multi-meter is a crappy Black and Decker cordless screw driver... I think it is the only Black and Decker tool I own. And these are the tools I make my money with every day.
Shoot, in carpentry tools, I couldn't hardly buy a nail belt for that kind of money, not to mention fill it with tools. I've easy got 10k in carpentry tools, maybe 50-80k in mechanics tools (all top flight. mostly Snap-On) Even my go-bag and woods tools has got to be a couple grand...
So I've allotted 50 bucks a month. I will have a nice machinists chest on my bench pretty soon, filled with excellent tools to ply my trade. I don't really know how I got off-track. those cheap tools piss me off daily, but somehow, computer tools are different. And it isn't just me. I don't know anyone who buys expensive jeweler's screwdrivers for instance. That's going to be my first purchase.
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@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations. They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.
The oldest business in my town - a family making and shipping gopher traps out of an old Victorian - recently moved its manufacturing to China after 120 years of continual operations.
Even though he only employed two low wage employees, between taxes and California state labor laws & regulations he could no longer compete with (subsidized) labor costs abroad.
Its just an anicdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?
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You know what's dumb? Here I sit at my tech bench, and the tools upon it... I dunno, there's maybe 100 bucks worth of crappy tools... The most expensive, outside of my multi-meter is a crappy Black and Decker cordless screw driver... I think it is the only Black and Decker tool I own. And these are the tools I make my money with every day.
Shoot, in carpentry tools, I couldn't hardly buy a nail belt for that kind of money, not to mention fill it with tools. I've easy got 10k in carpentry tools, maybe 50-80k in mechanics tools (all top flight. mostly Snap-On) Even my go-bag and woods tools has got to be a couple grand...
So I've allotted 50 bucks a month. I will have a nice machinists chest on my bench pretty soon, filled with excellent tools to ply my trade. I don't really know how I got off-track. those cheap tools **** me off daily, but somehow, computer tools are different. And it isn't just me. I don't know anyone who buys expensive jeweler's screwdrivers for instance. That's going to be my first purchase.
Don't get me started on Snap-off. I just don't see the value in a $500 floor jack. But that's just me.
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Complicated issue full of emotions and subjectivity.
Whats gonna happen when America has sent all of our production, manufacturing, and skilled jobs overseas? Ok that tshirt might be cheaper but if you don't have a job even $7 is a lot of money.
Not to mention the wages overseas have gone up tremendously but regulation has not. I used to be able to hire a software programmer in India for $1 or $2 an hour, then it was $9, then $12, now its $25. But they still don't have the regulations. The companies there are still able to get access to money to fund growth.
The free trade people say the money comes back to the US, but it really doesn't. Perhaps companies like Nestle might have a better profit but the actual money doesn't come back here. It doesn't buy stuff here, it doesn't pay people here, and it certainly isn't invested in new businesses here. No that money stays in China and builds stuff in China.
So we outsource our labor and our intellectual capital goes with it. We cease having the skill to produce, to invent, heck we don't have the skill to even break even in some areas.
America will be a 3rd world country within a couple generations, traded for a $7 tshirt.
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The oldest business in my town - a family making and shipping gopher traps out of an old Victorian - recently moved its manufacturing to China after 120 years of continual operations.
Even though he only employed two low wage employees, between taxes and California state labor laws & regulations he could no longer compete with (subsidized) labor costs abroad.
Its just an anicdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?
Then I take it your not a fan of automation then..
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America will be a 3rd world country within a couple generations, traded for a $7 tshirt.
I've been hearing this crap since I started following politics on the internet in the 90's. It's never happened.
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Plus, American education is so bad that most Americans can't understand that their wages should be lower than others, to compete.
Oversimplified:
Labor cost = Wages + Other Costs, where Other Costs includes things like OSHA protections. So OSHA protections mean Americans should be accepting lower wages to be competitive with the market, all things being equal.
Yet Americans seem to think they should, by birthright, be paid more than their competitors, without having to produce a superior product or more of it.
We need to reduce other burdens on US companies, but the bottom line is that we must also be competitive.
@Suppressed
Its far more complicated then that. Have China and India just been sitting around hoping companies send their work offshore? No, they've been paying lobbyists in Washington to pass laws favorable to offshoring. They've been pushing more regulation (see environmental laws in Kyoto and Paris deals) that is focused on slowing America down. They've been succeeding too.
Its not just the government either. They subsidize their industry. Tomatoes used to be a huge crop around where I live in Florida. All those fields are empty now. Because our govt gives money to the Mexican govt, the Mexican govt gives that money to their tomato farmers. So that farmer in Mexico can grow and ship that tomato back to Florida cheaper then it can be grown here. Never mind they use human waste for fertilizer.
Then there are the big global banks, who see more profit from pushing all the above offshore. They see a couple billion potential customers in those countries. Each needing a car, each needing a credit card. Meanwhile those same banks lie and steal from American customers and then offshore their own jobs to those countries. And none of that money will benefit America.
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I've been hearing this crap since I started following politics on the internet in the 90's. It's never happened.
It hasn't? You should look around. There are many areas where its quite visible.
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Complicated issue full of emotions and subjectivity.
Whats gonna happen when America has sent all of our production, manufacturing, and skilled jobs overseas? Ok that tshirt might be cheaper but if you don't have a job even $7 is a lot of money.
Not to mention the wages overseas have gone up tremendously but regulation has not. I used to be able to hire a software programmer in India for $1 or $2 an hour, then it was $9, then $12, now its $25. But they still don't have the regulations. The companies there are still able to get access to money to fund growth.
The free trade people say the money comes back to the US, but it really doesn't. Perhaps companies like Nestle might have a better profit but the actual money doesn't come back here. It doesn't buy stuff here, it doesn't pay people here, and it certainly isn't invested in new businesses here. No that money stays in China and builds stuff in China.
So we outsource our labor and our intellectual capital goes with it. We cease having the skill to produce, to invent, heck we don't have the skill to even break even in some areas.
America will be a 3rd world country within a couple generations, traded for a $7 tshirt.
A lot of the money does come back in the form of investments in US companies (stocks and bonds) and US treasuries.
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I go through a cheap pair of cheap white sneakers (nurse shoes) in about 6 weeks at work but its fine because I have to wear shoes that basically look new anyway. Fortunately they're only about $10.
Its amazing how quickly carpet wears out the soles.
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Its just an anicdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?
That presupposes all those workers are capable of doing is making traps. I suspect, if we don't pay them to sit on the couch playing xbox, they'd find something else.
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@Suppressed
Its far more complicated then that.
@driftdiver Thus, you'll note my point that we have to reduce other burdens.
But still, on a level playing field, American wages go down unless they produce more.
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It hasn't? You should look around. There are many areas where its quite visible.
I'm looking around, not around here. Things were actually worse in the 90's... take crime for example.
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A lot of the money does come back in the form of investments in US companies (stocks and bonds) and US treasuries.
It may come back to a "US Company" but it doesn't come back to the US. Companies keep it overseas and invest it in operations overseas. It may also come back to the US treasuries but its when they buy our ever increasing debt. Not exactly a good thing.
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It may come back to a "US Company" but it doesn't come back to the US. Companies keep it overseas and invest it in operations overseas. It may also come back to the US treasuries but its when they buy our ever increasing debt. Not exactly a good thing.
So basically you want US companies to only stay in the US???
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Don't get me started on Snap-off. I just don't see the value in a $500 floor jack. But that's just me.
Depends on what you're buying. Their wrenches and sockets are king, bar none. Their ratchets are fair... I like a tighter click. Their screw drivers suck... I actually like craftsman better, except for cabinet drivers, which are Snap-on. Pliers tend toward Channel-Lock. And no, I don't buy their jacks. They're just rebranded anyway, and you can buy from the original manufacturer for half the money.
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I'm looking around, not around here. Things were actually worse in the 90's... take crime for example.
Crime? Thats because almost !% of our population is in jail and another 2% are on probation or parole. A rate thats much higher than other industrialized countries.
How about drug use? Its rampant in rural America.
Income? According to the sources I find our median household income is lower today than it was in the late 90s.
People from other countries are coming to the US to buy property. Why? Because its cheap. Why is it cheap? Because people here don't have the money to buy it.
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Crime? Thats because almost !% of our population is in jail and another 2% are on probation or parole. A rate thats much higher than other industrialized countries.
How about drug use? Its rampant in rural America.
Income? According to the sources I find our median household income is lower today than it was in the late 90s.
People from other countries are coming to the US to buy property. Why? Because its cheap. Why is it cheap? Because people here don't have the money to buy it.
:bigsilly:
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So basically you want US companies to only stay in the US???
@kevindavis
I want America to be strong and a leader of the world.
Is it wrong to want America to be strong? If we don't do the things necessary to be strong then we won't be.
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:bigsilly:
Glad you find the facts so humorous.
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@kevindavis
I want America to be strong and a leader of the world.
Is it wrong to want America to be strong? If we don't do the things necessary to be strong then we won't be.
Yeah, those high tariffs and trade restrictions in the 1920s and 1930s sure made the US strong.
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@kevindavis
I want America to be strong and a leader of the world.
Is it wrong to want America to be strong? If we don't do the things necessary to be strong then we won't be.
Protecting American industry and workers from competition will not do this.
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Crime? Thats because almost !% of our population is in jail and another 2% are on probation or parole. A rate thats much higher than other industrialized countries.
How about drug use? Its rampant in rural America.
Income? According to the sources I find our median household income is lower today than it was in the late 90s.
People from other countries are coming to the US to buy property. Why? Because its cheap. Why is it cheap? Because people here don't have the money to buy it.
This might be true in rural America, but not around here.
The late 90's was an aberration cause by an Internet bubble that promptly popped a few years later. Unfair to compare the peak to now.
But protectionism won't bring anything back or make anything better.
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Protecting American industry and workers from competition will not do this.
Shipping all our jobs and knowledge overseas and building our competitors won't either.
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This might be true in rural America, but not around here.
The late 90's was an aberration cause by an Internet bubble that promptly popped a few years later. Unfair to compare the peak to now.
But protectionism won't bring anything back or make anything better.
How about a level playing field? Its not even level here. Companies will lie so they can hire non-citizens. I've seen companies pull the job ad after interviewing Americans and changing it so that none of them met the requirements. Then hiring H1Bs. They would even hire more H1Bs with a greater cost. Probably because they were getting tax credits for doing so.
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Then I take it your not a fan of automation then..
I like automation here fine. In China, not so much.
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How about a level playing field? Its not even level here. Companies will lie so they can hire non-citizens. I've seen companies pull the job ad after interviewing Americans and changing it so that none of them met the requirements. Then hiring H1Bs. They would even hire more H1Bs with a greater cost. Probably because they were getting tax credits for doing so.
Yeah... but that's a problem with our laws and enforcement. Is the solution to H1b's to slap a tariff on imported goods (causing our trading partners to do the same)?
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Yeah, those high tariffs and trade restrictions in the 1920s and 1930s sure made the US strong.
@Oceander
There is a TON of middle ground ya know. its not all or nothing.
BTW, what was so funny about the facts that I posted. Do you really find that humorous?
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Kevin D. Williamson has a nice article in National Review Online right now on goods Made in America.
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Yeah... but that's a problem with our laws and enforcement. Is the solution to H1b's to slap a tariff on imported goods (causing our trading partners to do the same)?
Who used the word tariff?
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Kevin D. Williamson has a nice article in National Review Online right now on goods Made in America.
Got a link?
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Protecting American industry and workers from competition will not do this.
Agreed. Restricting competition is the way to end up with lower quality and higher prices, everytime.
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Its just an anecdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?
You also have an entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy. The alternative is that you have nothing. Both laborers lose their jobs AND the entrepreneur closes up shop.
So why are we talking about manufacturing in the first place? The US economy is driven by service - not manufacturing. It has been that way for a very long time. And there is nothing wrong with it either. I have a service job, one made possible because of automation. I work in the industrial automation field. And I can attest to the hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs that are born out of the automation field.
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Got a link?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449762/made-america-not-important-21st-century
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Agreed. Restricting competition is the way to end up with lower quality and higher prices, everytime.
DING DING DING !!! WE HAVE A WINNER !!!
(Would someone please show liberals how this also applies to health care and health insurance?)
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You also have an entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy. The alternative is that you have nothing. Both laborers lose their jobs AND the entrepreneur closes up shop.
So why are we talking about manufacturing in the first place? The US economy is driven by service - not manufacturing. It has been that way for a very long time. And there is nothing wrong with it either. I have a service job, one made possible because of automation. I work in the industrial automation field. And I can attest to the hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs that are born out of the automation field.
You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.
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DING DING DING !!! WE HAVE A WINNER !!!
(Would someone please show liberals how this also applies to health care and health insurance?)
@Hoodat
A simplistic view. There is plenty of competition available in the US in most areas of the economy to ensure high quality.
When price is the only factor, and has been made so by good marketing, then quality becomes significantly less relevant. Consumers have been trained to accept poor quality as long as the price is right.
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You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.
Take cell phones. A friend of mine in India pays $1 a month for his cell phone with 200 minutes of talk time. $1 a month
They use the same equipment we use. They have the same support staff we have.
The telecom companies have outsourced most of their staff to India. What happens when nobody has a job to pay their highly inflated rates here in the US?
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You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.
Nope. Not true.
If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?
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Nope. Not true.
If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?
Nice thought, but there is a balance, and the only reason you can survive in any given area, is because there is some sort of manufacturing or ag... Doesn't matter if !you! have work... the entire township will fold right up around you. Middle class income is what pays for the lion's share of those service industries. when that income folds up, so do the services.
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Take cell phones. A friend of mine in India pays $1 a month for his cell phone with 200 minutes of talk time. $1 a month
They use the same equipment we use. They have the same support staff we have.
The telecom companies have outsourced most of their staff to India. What happens when nobody has a job to pay their highly inflated rates here in the US?
There is a point to be made there... and my focus is on whole towns going bust. Even if the econmy s strong, you can't sustain those towns drying up long... Towns going broke mean counties going broke, which means states going broke.
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Nice thought, but there is a balance, and the only reason you can survive in any given area, is because there is some sort of manufacturing or ag... Doesn't matter if !you! have work... the entire township will fold right up around you. Middle class income is what pays for the lion's share of those service industries. when that income folds up, so do the services.
There are no Siemens compressor manufacturers or oil platform hull manufacturers within two thousand miles of my location. Yet as a Georgia resident, I get paid to work on both.
Manufacturing makes up 8% of Georgia's total employment. Your characterization on the importance of it is exaggerated at best.
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You also have an entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy. The alternative is that you have nothing. Both laborers lose their jobs AND the entrepreneur closes up shop.
So why are we talking about manufacturing in the first place? The US economy is driven by service - not manufacturing. It has been that way for a very long time. And there is nothing wrong with it either. I have a service job, one made possible because of automation. I work in the industrial automation field. And I can attest to the hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs that are born out of the automation field.
@Hoodat
You have an "entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy." but he's not pouring his production costs back in. So theres a significant percentage that is leaving the country. Then the manufacturer in China copies his product and starts selling cheap knockoffs to compete with him. Further eroding his profits.
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There are no Siemens compressor manufacturers or oil platform hull manufacturers within two thousand miles of my location. Yet as a Georgia resident, I get paid to work on both.
Manufacturing makes up 8% of Georgia's total employment. Your characterization on the importance of it is exaggerated at best.
Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.
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Nope. Not true.
If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?
@Hoodat
Funny you should mention gas compressors.
I work for the Stasskol division of Nueman & Esser (out of Germany).
We sell parts to Siemens (Dresser Rand).
We have a small shop in Texas where we make compressor parts (Rings, Packings, etc).
We have 7 employees and we do about 2mil in sales a year (for now).
I can attest that it used to take about 20-25 employees to do the same, 35 years ago, when I started.
Technology has advanced.
I read an article recently that said the US still manufactures as much as it ever has before (dollar-wise), but with only about 25% of the workforce it used to require.
Also, we tend to make more high-end, engineered, things now.
Curious, that I buy steel from a Texas company, but that steel may come from Turkey.
Some of polymers we use to make wear parts can come from Italy, although we buy the molded materials used to make them from Germany (our main facility) or from local vendors.
The cutting tools on our machines? Iscar, from Israel.
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Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.
Are you saying 'I didn't build this'?
No one is disputing hard work. No one is disputing bricks and mortars. We are talking about the importance and necessity of manufacturing jobs within the US and the anti-free-market mandates to prop up those jobs.
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Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.
Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.
You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.
Welcome to capitalism.
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@Hoodat
Funny you should mention gas compressors.
I work for the Stasskol division of Nueman & Esser (out of Germany).
We sell parts to Siemens (Dresser Rand).
We have a small shop in Texas where we make compressor parts (Rings, Packings, etc).
We have 7 employees and we do about 2mil in sales a year (for now).
I can attest that it used to take about 20-25 employees to do the same, 35 years ago, when I started.
Technology has advanced.
I read an article recently that said the US still manufactures as much as it ever has before (dollar-wise), but with only about 25% of the workforce it used to require.
Also, we tend to make more high-end, engineered, things now.
Curious, that I buy steel from a Texas company, but that steel may come from Turkey.
Some of polymers we use to make wear parts can come from Italy, although we buy the molded materials used to make them from Germany (our main facility) or from local vendors.
The cutting tools on our machines? Iscar, from Israel.
And there is not a thing wrong with any of that. The invisible hand working marvelously.
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Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.
You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.
Welcome to capitalism.
I grew up in a small town where GE, DuPont, and Thiokol were the main manufacturers. First GE closed. Then Thiokol. After I moved away, DuPont shut its doors. At the time, I had wrongly believed that the closure of DuPont would end the town. Today, the town continues to thrive.
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If outsourcing and offshoring are so good for American business why has Chinas economy grown so much while ours doesn't?
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Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.
You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.
Welcome to capitalism.
Probably because they are suffering from decades of economic policy which pushes jobs away from rural America to the urban centers and offshore. Thats hardly an example of capitalism.
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Probably because they are suffering from decades of economic policy which pushes jobs away from rural America to the urban centers and offshore. Thats hardly an example of capitalism.
They are precious snowflakes who want protection from the big bad free market. Sounds like a millenial doesn't it?
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If outsourcing and offshoring are so good for American business why has Chinas economy grown so much while ours doesn't?
Our economy hasn't grown? We haven't been in recession since 2009 or so, with just a few quarters of negative growth since then.
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They are precious snowflakes who want protection from the big bad free market. Sounds like a millenial doesn't it?
Hardly, considering the reasons why economic policy is what it is. People are easier to control in cities. It isn't a free market when govt policy makes it more difficult to do business in small towns.
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People are easier to control in cities.
:silly:
Which is why rural folks are begging the government to protect their "jerbs"!
:silly:
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Crime? Thats because almost !% of our population is in jail and another 2% are on probation or parole. A rate thats much higher than other industrialized countries.
How about drug use? Its rampant in rural America.
Income? According to the sources I find our median household income is lower today than it was in the late 90s.
People from other countries are coming to the US to buy property. Why? Because its cheap. Why is it cheap? Because people here don't have the money to buy it.
Our rural population has a toxic mix of cultural beliefs that are working to destroy them.
1. Place no value in education. (hard to get a good paying job, or ANY job without that)
2. Overemphasis on family. So much so that they will not move to get a job.
3. Suspicious of anything new, whether it be a newcomer to the town or a change. It's hard to get out of poverty if you reject new investors/refuse to solicit for them.
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@Hoodat
A simplistic view. There is plenty of competition available in the US in most areas of the economy to ensure high quality.
When price is the only factor, and has been made so by good marketing, then quality becomes significantly less relevant. Consumers have been trained to accept poor quality as long as the price is right.
No.
People want the best value for the amount of money they can/want to spend. Almays will.
The problem is that they value they seek may not be the value you do.
Cars are a great example. I value handling performance, then engine power, and finally the interior's material quality Others value cargo capacity, seating capacity, and then vehicle height.
I think they are getting poor value for their money when they buy a Ford Explorer, because I don't want their value points. And they think I waste my money with a VW GTI or a Mazda RX-8.
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Are you saying 'I didn't build this'?
No one is disputing hard work. No one is disputing bricks and mortars. We are talking about the importance and necessity of manufacturing jobs within the US and the anti-free-market mandates to prop up those jobs.
Not at all. I am saying that rarified high tech jobs are not something that most folks can handle.
Take the loggers here. The government shut off the woods and allowed Canadian wood into the country at crazy low prices. Literally within 5 years, a major industry in our region dried up completely. Largely regulated out of business.
So the loggers were out of work almost entirely. And the cat operators were out of work too - and the road patrols, and whole fleets of dump trucks. And then of course, the mills closed down... and the jippo mills. All that's left is the plywood mill and a couple paper mills down in Missoula.
There's still some good jobs around... Ag is still pretty strong, and there is some light manufacturing in town. Construction comes and goes. But mostly we're about tourists now. And all those logger families are still scratching hard to make a living, ever since the woods shut down, near twenty years ago... Whole generations without a way forward.
What pays here now? Government jobs and health industry jobs. one or two tech companies, and insurance. Not the kind of thing a guy in a flannel shirt knows how to do.
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Not at all. I am saying that rarified high tech jobs are not something that most folks can handle.
Take the loggers here. The government shut off the woods and allowed Canadian wood into the country at crazy low prices. Literally within 5 years, a major industry in our region dried up completely. Largely regulated out of business.
So the loggers were out of work almost entirely. And the cat operators were out of work too - and the road patrols, and whole fleets of dump trucks. And then of course, the mills closed down... and the jippo mills. All that's left is the plywood mill and a couple paper mills down in Missoula.
There's still some good jobs around... Ag is still pretty strong, and there is some light manufacturing in town. Construction comes and goes. But mostly we're about tourists now. And all those logger families are still scratching hard to make a living, ever since the woods shut down, near twenty years ago... Whole generations without a way forward.
What pays here now? Government jobs and health industry jobs. one or two tech companies, and insurance. Not the kind of thing a guy in a flannel shirt knows how to do.
:shrug:
I'm with you on the regulations... but the answer isn't to put a tariff on imported goods.
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No.
People want the best value for the amount of money they can/want to spend. Almays will.
The problem is that they value they seek may not be the value you do.
Cars are a great example. I value handling performance, then engine power, and finally the interior's material quality Others value cargo capacity, seating capacity, and then vehicle height.
I think they are getting poor value for their money when they buy a Ford Explorer, because I don't want their value points. And they think I waste my money with a VW GTI or a Mazda RX-8.
@HonestJohn
Looking at the success of Walmart the facts differ from your theory. They dont sell on quality. They don't sell on customer service. They sell on price.
Cars and houses are one thing, they represent a significant investment. For the rest of our daily needs we have been convinced that price is everything and a huge percentage of the population believes it. Although some people are wising up.
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@HonestJohn
Looking at the success of Walmart the facts differ from your theory. They dont sell on quality. They don't sell on customer service. They sell on price.
Cars and houses are one thing, they represent a significant investment. For the rest of our daily needs we have been convinced that price is everything and a huge percentage of the population believes it. Although some people are wising up.
Because their quality (or lack) is a given and their primary market is people who have very little money and are therefore very price conscious.
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Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.
You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.
Welcome to capitalism.
Bull crap. Our jobs were regulated out, not lost to competition. MOST of the rural countryside is getting regulated out. We can't live without the forest, and now it's all gated off.
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Bull crap. Our jobs were regulated out, not lost to competition. MOST of the rural countryside is getting regulated out. We can't live without the forest, and now it's all gated off.
I'm with you on the regulations, but the answer isn't to close off the door to imports.
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:shrug:
I'm with you on the regulations... but the answer isn't to put a tariff on imported goods.
Again with the tariff word. I haven't seen anyone suggest a tariff.
Its weird how so many people will argue that Americans shouldn't protect American business & jobs but they ignore that other countries have all kinds of barriers to our trade.
Seems like "free trade" is a one way street.
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@HonestJohn
Looking at the success of Walmart the facts differ from your theory. They dont sell on quality. They don't sell on customer service. They sell on price.
Walmart sells the same crap everyone else does for the most part. Is a Walmart Iphone of lesser quality than a Target or Best Buy one?
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Again with the tariff word. I haven't seen anyone suggest a tariff.
Its weird how so many people will argue that Americans shouldn't protect American business & jobs but they ignore that other countries have all kinds of barriers to our trade.
Seems like "free trade" is a one way street.
I thought Trump at one point wanted a 30% tariff on all imported goods?
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If outsourcing and offshoring are so good for American business why has Chinas economy grown so much while ours doesn't?
Ours is growing.
And China's been outsourcing jobs for a while now. Those t-shirts aren't made in China anymore. They are made in Vietnam. and the Chinese worker isn't sitting in his village decrying the global economy. He's gone and moved to find another job in a more profitable business, likely electronics.
Not to mentiom just how much money China is investing worldwide. And their 'Belt and Road' initiative is set to have the world see a *MASSIVE* growth of Chinese investment worldwide. Or at least, in those countries that don't refuse them.
Two major investments already signed are massive port upgrades throughout the Pacific and South Asia... as well as new highways/railroads to connect China to Europe.
We could have had China pay for major port upgrades here, had we decided to sign onto the initiative, but we got our current administration. So no, we refused it and are now seeing the world pass us by.
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Walmart sells the same crap everyone else does for the most part. Is a Walmart Iphone of lesser quality than a Target or Best Buy one?
The VAST majority of items sold at Walmart are made to Walmart specs. However some items such as an iPhone are the same.
I've seen Black & Decker drills at Walmart that were much more cheaply made then those at other stores. Then theres the cloths, most of which are made of inferior materials. At one point 26% of everything P&G sold was at Walmart.
Or do you really think the manufacturers just eat the price differential?
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Our rural population has a toxic mix of cultural beliefs that are working to destroy them.
1. Place no value in education. (hard to get a good paying job, or ANY job without that)
2. Overemphasis on family. So much so that they will not move to get a job.
3. Suspicious of anything new, whether it be a newcomer to the town or a change. It's hard to get out of poverty if you reject new investors/refuse to solicit for them.
When it all folds up, we'll still be here.
It's the cities that are toxic.
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Not at all. I am saying that rarified high tech jobs are not something that most folks can handle.
Take the loggers here. The government shut off the woods and allowed Canadian wood into the country at crazy low prices. Literally within 5 years, a major industry in our region dried up completely. Largely regulated out of business.
So the loggers were out of work almost entirely. And the cat operators were out of work too - and the road patrols, and whole fleets of dump trucks. And then of course, the mills closed down... and the jippo mills. All that's left is the plywood mill and a couple paper mills down in Missoula.
There's still some good jobs around... Ag is still pretty strong, and there is some light manufacturing in town. Construction comes and goes. But mostly we're about tourists now. And all those logger families are still scratching hard to make a living, ever since the woods shut down, near twenty years ago... Whole generations without a way forward.
What pays here now? Government jobs and health industry jobs. one or two tech companies, and insurance. Not the kind of thing a guy in a flannel shirt knows how to do.
And there were job retraining programs... at least there were, before we voted it nutbags that didn't see any value in that. They'd help pay for retraining into other. high demand jobs.
CAD/CAM assisted machining is a job field that is screaming for jobs, and is paying in the $80,000 range. And it's not hard to learn.
Of course, you might have to move.
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So at this point what difference is there between Rumpkins and liberals? Because I don't see any and their arguments are completely identical.
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When it all folds up, we'll still be here.
It's the cities that are toxic.
Actually I read that rural folks are moving into the cities at an increasing rate.
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Again with the tariff word. I haven't seen anyone suggest a tariff.
President Donald J. Trump’s Weekly Address
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/07/21/president-donald-j-trumps-weekly-address
July 21, 2017
My fellow Americans,
On Monday, I signed a Presidential Proclamation declaring this to be “Made in America Week.”
We believe that our country is stronger, safer, and more prosperous when we make more of our goods and our products right here in the USA. When we purchase products Made in America, the wealth, revenue and jobs all stay in our country – to be enjoyed by our people.
Since we first won our Independence, our Founders and many of our greatest leaders have promoted that we should afford a special level of protection to the products and goods manufactured within our borders....
- - - - -
What do believe is the special level of protection?
Rand Paul was speaking to CNN due to this proclamation and that Trump hires foreign workers at his Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida.
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When it all folds up, we'll still be here.
It's the cities that are toxic.
You've been given examples and shown the job opportunities elsewhere. And you're response is the get mulish and justify the towns and their suffering.
That's a great example of the toxic ways found in rural areas.
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Ours is growing.
And China's been outsourcing jobs for a while now. Those t-shirts aren't made in China anymore. They are made in Vietnam. and the Chinese worker isn't sitting in his village decrying the global economy. He's gone and moved to find another job in a more profitable business, likely electronics.
Not to mentiom just how much money China is investing worldwide. And their 'Belt and Road' initiative is set to have the world see a *MASSIVE* growth of Chinese investment worldwide. Or at least, in those countries that don't refuse them.
Two major investments already signed are massive port upgrades throughout the Pacific and South Asia... as well as new highways/railroads to connect China to Europe.
We could have had China pay for major port upgrades here, had we decided to sign onto the initiative, but we got our current administration. So no, we refused it and are now seeing the world pass us by.
Ours is growing very very slowly. Barely at all.
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I thought Trump at one point wanted a 30% tariff on all imported goods?
See theres the problem, you thought.
Now go insult all those Rumpkins some more. Its a great way to win friends and influence people.
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President Donald J. Trump’s Weekly Address
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/07/21/president-donald-j-trumps-weekly-address
July 21, 2017
My fellow Americans,
On Monday, I signed a Presidential Proclamation declaring this to be “Made in America Week.”
We believe that our country is stronger, safer, and more prosperous when we make more of our goods and our products right here in the USA. When we purchase products Made in America, the wealth, revenue and jobs all stay in our country – to be enjoyed by our people.
Since we first won our Independence, our Founders and many of our greatest leaders have promoted that we should afford a special level of protection to the products and goods manufactured within our borders....
- - - - -
What do believe is the special level of protection?
Rand Paul was speaking to CNN due to this proclamation and that Trump hires foreign workers at his Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida.
@thackney
Now post a link where someone on this thread suggested a tariff?
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@thackney
Now post a link where someone on this thread suggested a tariff?
This is the topic of the article of the thread. I didn't see where someone accused another posting of saying it.
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This is the topic of the article of the thread. I didn't see where someone accused another posting of saying it.
@thackney
Buying American is the topic. The word "tariff" doesn't show up in the article a single time.
Again, many countries have steep barriers to entry of US products. Free traitors never seem to be worried about those. No, they are solely concerned that America might do something, anything, to protect itself.
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:shrug:
I'm with you on the regulations... but the answer isn't to put a tariff on imported goods.
Tell that to all the loggers, equipment operators, truckers, mill workers, industrial warehouses, Paint and body shops, saw shops, car dealers truck and tractor dealers, and etc and so on, that used to revolve around those logging jobs.
And YES, when Canada is subsidizing their logging industry, and we are doing it on our own backs, asking nothing from you or anybody else but for a fair shake, damn right a tariff to offset their subsidy is in order.
This ain't unions. This ain't chinese labor. this is freakin CANADA, man!
And it shut down the whole of the Rockies, not just my part of it... The primary industry for the whole dang region. It's what we DO. Now we watch it all go up in smoke every year - hundreds of thousands of acres - because all that infrastructure that used to be here to fight the fires is gone with the logging. It ain't nothing but natural bull crap.
That isn't capitalism. Not by a whole helluva long shot. 'Free trade' is bullcrap. Fair Trade in the Duncan Hunter sense of the word. I'll go that far, but no further.
I don't mind playing ball.I haven't held a job since I was 18. I make jobs for others. but I expect a level playing field.
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@thackney
Again, many countries have steep barriers to entry of US products.
Much to the detriment of their consumers.
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Tell that to all the loggers, equipment operators, truckers, mill workers, industrial warehouses, Paint and body shops, saw shops, car dealers truck and tractor dealers, and etc and so on, that used to revolve around those logging jobs.
And YES, when Canada is subsidizing their logging industry, and we are doing it on our own backs, asking nothing from you or anybody else but for a fair shake, damn right a tariff to offset their subsidy is in order.
This ain't unions. This ain't chinese labor. this is freakin CANADA, man!
And it shut down the whole of the Rockies, not just my part of it... The primary industry for the whole dang region. It's what we DO. Now we watch it all go up in smoke every year - hundreds of thousands of acres - because all that infrastructure that used to be here to fight the fires is gone with the logging. It ain't nothing but natural bull crap.
That isn't capitalism. Not by a whole helluva long shot. 'Free trade' is bullcrap. Fair Trade in the Duncan Hunter sense of the word. I'll go that far, but no further.
I don't mind playing ball.I haven't held a job since I was 18. I make jobs for others. but I expect a level playing field.
@roamer_1
When I first moved to Florida there were orange trees everywhere. Fields of tomatoes, peppers, strawberries lined the roads outside of the city. Now there's barely anything planted.
Strawberries are about the only crop left in this area and its a fraction of what it used to be.
All of it has gone to South America
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@thackney
Buying American is the topic. The word "tariff" doesn't show up in the article a single time.
Again, many countries have steep barriers to entry of US products. Free traitors never seem to be worried about those. No, they are solely concerned that America might do something, anything, to protect itself.
So what is the special level of protection Trump was talking about? Was it tariffs? If not, what was it?
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Tell that to all the loggers, equipment operators, truckers, mill workers, industrial warehouses, Paint and body shops, saw shops, car dealers truck and tractor dealers, and etc and so on, that used to revolve around those logging jobs.
And YES, when Canada is subsidizing their logging industry, and we are doing it on our own backs, asking nothing from you or anybody else but for a fair shake, **** right a tariff to offset their subsidy is in order.
This ain't unions. This ain't chinese labor. this is freakin CANADA, man!
And it shut down the whole of the Rockies, not just my part of it... The primary industry for the whole dang region. It's what we DO. Now we watch it all go up in smoke every year - hundreds of thousands of acres - because all that infrastructure that used to be here to fight the fires is gone with the logging. It ain't nothing but natural bull crap.
That isn't capitalism. Not by a whole helluva long shot. 'Free trade' is bullcrap. Fair Trade in the Duncan Hunter sense of the word. I'll go that far, but no further.
I don't mind playing ball.I haven't held a job since I was 18. I make jobs for others. but I expect a level playing field.
And what does that tariff on Canadian lumber do? Make wood more expensive for Americans.
In other words it hurts workers instead of helps them.
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So what is the special level of protection Trump was talking about? Was it tariffs? If not, what was it?
Dunno, the article I read is about Rand Paul making a statement. But there are a lot of ways to level the playing field. Just talking about it raises visibility. Maybe we could stop sending money to foreign countries to subsidize their industry. Stop giving tax breaks to companies that offshore jobs.
All kinds of things can be done. But it starts with admitting that the job of our Government is to protect Americans first. Not Canadians, Chinese, Indians, or anyone else.
IN many cases its in Americas best interest to be a good friend but its a two way street. Or it should be
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And there were job retraining programs... at least there were, before we voted it nutbags that didn't see any value in that. They'd help pay for retraining into other. high demand jobs.
CAD/CAM assisted machining is a job field that is screaming for jobs, and is paying in the $80,000 range. And it's not hard to learn.
Of course, you might have to move.
Screw that. Loggers ain't made for that, any more than cowboys are.
And how exactly do you sell a rural homestead and come up with enough money to move six kids and a wife to a place where real estate and rental is five times what your whole place is worth? You're crazy.
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Much to the detriment of their consumers.
@Suppressed
Governments don't have customers.
They do have corrupt politicians and people with wads of cash trying to bribe them.
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And what does that tariff on Canadian lumber do? Make wood more expensive for Americans.
In other words it hurts workers instead of helps them.
Somebody is buying American lumber. I see 2 or 3 trucks hauling loads of hardwood through town every day. They're heading toward the sawmill I once worked for in Clinton Michigan.
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@Suppressed
Governments don't have customers.
They do have corrupt politicians and people with wads of cash trying to bribe them.
@driftdiver
The noun in the sentence was "countries," not "governments."
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Actually I read that rural folks are moving into the cities at an increasing rate.
Sure they are. All the jobs are gone. All the farms got ate up by inheritance tax and sold to mega farms. You can't hardly piss on the ground without a gubmint man running up and declaring it a seasonal waterway, or a duck habitat, or some such.
Y'all are cutting off the very hand that feeds you.
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Screw that. Loggers ain't made for that, any more than cowboys are.
And how exactly do you sell a rural homestead and come up with enough money to move six kids and a wife to a place where real estate and rental is five times what your whole place is worth? You're crazy.
So why are lumberjack jobs so precious? If their jobs deserve protection from the market, why not all our jobs?
What about the people working for retail places losing their jobs? Maybe we should have the government step in there?
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And what does that tariff on Canadian lumber do? Make wood more expensive for Americans.
In other words it hurts workers instead of helps them.
The goal of Trump and his Tariff Army is to transfer money from consumers to unions and business owners.
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You've been given examples and shown the job opportunities elsewhere. And you're response is the get mulish and justify the towns and their suffering.
That's a great example of the toxic ways found in rural areas.
Howabout leaving us the hell alone and let us make our own way.
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Sure they are. All the jobs are gone. All the farms got ate up by inheritance tax and sold to mega farms. You can't hardly **** on the ground without a gubmint man running up and declaring it a seasonal waterway, or a duck habitat, or some such.
Y'all are cutting off the very hand that feeds you.
So the precious rural snowflakes need government protection to help protect them from ... the government?
Do I have that right?
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@driftdiver
The noun in the sentence was "countries," not "governments."
Countries don't have consumers either. Businesses do.
If Free trade is so good why are there so many people out of work? Just where is all this money going? Its not going into the pockets of the middle class.
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So the precious rural snowflakes need government protection to help protect them from ... the government?
Do I have that right?
No, they need protection from the urban bullies with overinflated egos.
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Countries don't have consumers either. Businesses do.
If Free trade is so good why are there so many people out of work? Just where is all this money going? Its not going into the pockets of the middle class.
So you want the government to step in and bail you out?
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No, they need protection from the urban bullies with overinflated egos.
:silly:
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@roamer_1
When I first moved to Florida there were orange trees everywhere. Fields of tomatoes, peppers, strawberries lined the roads outside of the city. Now there's barely anything planted.
Strawberries are about the only crop left in this area and its a fraction of what it used to be.
All of it has gone to South America
Do a search on "florida agricultural history" and you'll find that that's nonsense.
Or just head east on 60 for an hour or so.
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And what does that tariff on Canadian lumber do? Make wood more expensive for Americans.
In other words it hurts workers instead of helps them.
Not if you open all those gates on our forests and let us go back to what we do.
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Not if you open all those gates on our forests and let us go back to what we do.
I don't have a problem with that.
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So why are lumberjack jobs so precious? If their jobs deserve protection from the market, why not all our jobs?
What about the people working for retail places losing their jobs? Maybe we should have the government step in there?
For the last time, it isn't the market. We can't compete because we have no wood. it's all gated off. locked up. The only wood coming out of here is private land sales.
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No.
People want the best value for the amount of money they can/want to spend. Almays will.
The problem is that they value they seek may not be the value you do.
Correctamundo!
To put it in economic terms, people will always seek the most utility for each dollar spent. But what represents utility for you may not be the same for me.
Case in point - the $700 cell phone. There is no way in hell that I would pay that much for a cell phone. Yet my millennial co-worker will do it without hesitation, because he gets a heck of a lot more utility out of his cell phone ($700 worth) than I get out of mine ($150 worth).
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Not if you open all those gates on our forests and let us go back to what we do.
We can agree that government regulation is the problem. And is often the problem in killing off American Jobs, productivity, etc.
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For the last time, it isn't the market. We can't compete because we have no wood. it's all gated off. locked up. The only wood coming out of here is private land sales.
So we get to buy really cheap wood from Canada - under market value in fact - and that means we can build a lot more houses than we would otherwise have, so some of the unemployed lumbermen shift to housing construction, thereby learning a valuable new trade that isn't so much at the whim of the Canadian government, and we also get to keep more of our forests intact, which is a positive value in and of itself. And all funded by the Canadian taxpayer.
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So the precious rural snowflakes need government protection to help protect them from ... the government?
Do I have that right?
Well what do you think? It's the government that did it. It wasn't us not being competitive.
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So we get to buy really cheap wood from Canada - under market value in fact - and that means we can build a lot more houses than we would otherwise have, so some of the unemployed lumbermen shift to housing construction, thereby learning a valuable new trade that isn't so much at the whim of the Canadian government, and we also get to keep more of our forests intact, which is a positive value in and of itself. And all funded by the Canadian taxpayer.
No its funded by Americans who are sending money to Canadians. What happens when Americans run out of money?
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For the last time, it isn't the market. We can't compete because we have no wood. it's all gated off. locked up. The only wood coming out of here is private land sales.
It should all be private land sales, because the government should not own the land.
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No its funded by Americans who are sending money to Canadians. What happens when Americans run out of money?
Not if Canadians are underselling Americans because of Canadian subsidies.
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No its funded by Americans who are sending money to Canadians. What happens when Americans run out of money?
You mean like if they're paying too much for lumber? :whistle:
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So we get to buy really cheap wood from Canada - under market value in fact - and that means we can build a lot more houses than we would otherwise have, so some of the unemployed lumbermen shift to housing construction, thereby learning a valuable new trade that isn't so much at the whim of the Canadian government, and we also get to keep more of our forests intact, which is a positive value in and of itself. And all funded by the Canadian taxpayer.
Wow. And all it cost you is the major industry of five or six American States...
Oh, and most of that lumber is being bought here and shipped right to the coast So no, you are not getting much advantage over American grown. Japan is, and China is....
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So we get to buy really cheap wood from Canada - under market value in fact - and that means we can build a lot more houses than we would otherwise have, so some of the unemployed lumbermen shift to housing construction, thereby learning a valuable new trade that isn't so much at the whim of the Canadian government, and we also get to keep more of our forests intact, which is a positive value in and of itself. And all funded by the Canadian taxpayer.
Excellent point.
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Not at all. I am saying that rarified high tech jobs are not something that most folks can handle.
Controls jobs are not that rarified and not that high tech. There are hundreds of integrators out there, all competing for the same work I do.
Meanwhile, control room operators make more money than I do with no college education necessary.
Take the loggers here. The government shut off the woods and allowed Canadian wood into the country at crazy low prices. Literally within 5 years, a major industry in our region dried up completely. Largely regulated out of business.
So the loggers were out of work almost entirely. And the cat operators were out of work too - and the road patrols, and whole fleets of dump trucks. And then of course, the mills closed down... and the jippo mills. All that's left is the plywood mill and a couple paper mills down in Missoula.
There's still some good jobs around... Ag is still pretty strong, and there is some light manufacturing in town. Construction comes and goes. But mostly we're about tourists now. And all those logger families are still scratching hard to make a living, ever since the woods shut down, near twenty years ago... Whole generations without a way forward.
What pays here now? Government jobs and health industry jobs. one or two tech companies, and insurance. Not the kind of thing a guy in a flannel shirt knows how to do.
It reminds me of the candle manufacturers here. They've been out of work ever since Home Depot began selling electric light bulbs. Now they produce specialty candles because they are in tune to the market.
If these loggers insist on remaining in the farming industry, perhaps they should switch crops.
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We can agree that government regulation is the problem. And is often the problem in killing off American Jobs, productivity, etc.
Specifically so. There is no wage disparity. It's Canada. There are no union workers jacking up the cost of labor. This was our own government tilting the field so badly that we couldn't play.
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we also get to keep more of our forests intact
Oh, btw... No you don't. Forest management takes out beetle kill, thins growth so trees get bigger, and clears brush in the process, which prevents fire.
Now it all just burns.
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A few important relevant economic facts:
1) US manufacturing jobs have been declining for a long time. Much longer than the rise of China or recent "free" trade deals like NAFTA.
2) US manufacturing output has been going up the whole time.
3) We're not going to run out of money. A USD is worthless to China, unless they trade it to us to get some of our stuff, or they trade it to someone else -- but eventually it comes back in exchange for some of our stuff. Trade balances -- otherwise they wouldn't call it trade.
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Wow. And all it cost you is the major industry of five or six American States...
Which states? Names please. Don't know a single state where lumber is the number one industry.
I happen to live in the state that ranks #4 in timber producers. Business is good.
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Controls jobs are not that rarified and not that high tech. There are hundreds of integrators out there, all competing for the same work I do.
Meanwhile, control room operators make more money than I do with no college education necessary.
Dood, you're talking about people who run chainsaws and skidders and cats for a living. If you gave one of em a keyboard he'd smack you upside your head with it.
It reminds me of the candle manufacturers here. They've been out of work ever since Home Depot began selling electric light bulbs. Now they produce specialty candles because they are in tune to the market.
If these loggers insist on remaining in the farming industry, perhaps they should switch crops.
They wouldn't have to IF THE DAMN GOVERNMENT WOULD OPEN THE SALES BACK UP.
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Dood, you're talking about people who run chainsaws and skidders and cats for a living. If you gave one of em a keyboard he'd smack you upside your head with it.
Sorry but the days when you can just do one thing and one thing only your entire life are gone forever, despite the government's hand in decimating the industry.
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Dood, you're talking about people who run chainsaws and skidders and cats for a living. If you gave one of em a keyboard he'd smack you upside your head with it.
Their loss. I know plenty of rednecks and cajuns now making six figures because they weren't afraid to learn how to operate a mouse and keyboard after doing two years of field maintenance.
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Which states? Names please. Don't know a single state where lumber is the number one industry.
Of course it isn't anymore. It's all gone. There used to be five major mills in this valley alone. Now there's one, and it's a plywood mill.
I happen to live in the state that ranks #4 in timber producers. Business is good.
The entire rocky mountain corridor. MT, WY, UT, CO, ID, and eastern WA and eastern OR.
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Their loss. I know plenty of rednecks and cajuns now making six figures because they weren't afraid to learn how to operate a mouse and keyboard after doing two years of field maintenance.
Good for you. Six states worth of them?
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You mean like if they're paying too much for lumber? :whistle:
What happens when Americans run out of money to send to other countries?
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Good for you. Six states worth of them?
Yes, he knows 6 states worth of rednecks and cajuns.
22222frying pan
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What happens when Americans run out of money to send to other countries?
That's where cheaper imports comes in. What good does making American's pay more money do? Do you think that we can get rich from taxing people?
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Their loss. I know plenty of rednecks and cajuns now making six figures because they weren't afraid to learn how to operate a mouse and keyboard after doing two years of field maintenance.
@Hoodat
I bet I know more keyboard jockeys who were making 6 figures who are now unemployed because their jobs were sent to India or China.
They aren't buying houses now.
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Take cell phones. A friend of mine in India pays $1 a month for his cell phone with 200 minutes of talk time. $1 a month
They use the same equipment we use. They have the same support staff we have.
The telecom companies have outsourced most of their staff to India. What happens when nobody has a job to pay their highly inflated rates here in the US?
The major phone makers, have expensive versions for rich US customers. But they have cheaper versions, for India.
I have an HTC E8 which uses a plastic case, instead of a metal case. I put them into anther protective case anyway. I bought a brand new E8 for $240 from Sprint, instead of over $500-1,000 for the latest offerings by Apple, Samsung, LG, HTC, etc.
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They aren't buying houses now.
Someone is. My house has gained 6 figures in equity appreciation since I bought it in 2011.
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Someone is. My house has gained 6 figures in equity appreciation since I bought it in 2011.
Yeah we all saw how real that kind of real estate appreciation is. lol
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
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Yeah we all saw how real that kind of real estate appreciation is. lol
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
You Rumpsters really do understand the market don't you? Housing, like stocks, oil, etc. goes up and down in value.
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Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.
You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.
Welcome to capitalism.
Your remarks sound like a "chip on your shoulder," about rural people, and a babyboomers.
But the same capitalism forces you suggest for them, apply to EVERYBODY (age cohort), ANYWHERE (rural, suburban and rural).
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Yes, he knows 6 states worth of rednecks and cajuns.
22222frying pan
Well it's easy to say retraining, until you measure it against the scope of the thing.
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But the same capitalism forces you suggest for them, apply to EVERYBODY (age cohort), ANYWHERE (rural, suburban and rural).
Why do "rugged, independent" rural folks want protection from the big bad free market then?
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Of course it isn't anymore. It's all gone. There used to be five major mills in this valley alone. Now there's one, and it's a plywood mill.
The entire rocky mountain corridor. MT, WY, UT, CO, ID, and eastern WA and eastern OR.
Add Arizona and New Mexico, since they too are in that same Rocky Mountain corridor.
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Someone is. My house has gained 6 figures in equity appreciation since I bought it in 2011.
So have most locations in America. Write that off to historically low interest rates, for one thing.
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What happens when Americans run out of money to send to other countries?
They say, "Well, this would have happened a lot sooner, if we'd followed @driftdiver policy and made things less affordable!"
At least by us taking a conservative approach, the consumer gets a better deal, and Canada sells their material at below market price.
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The long term trend seems to be lower skilled workers made obsolete, with automation. Jobs in automation require higher skills.
Wash repeat for many years, and a society winds up with a surplus of unemployable low/no skill workers.
And often a shortage of high skill workers. Pretty well describes America, today according to some accounts.
Skill do correlate with Intelligence. That is one reason foreigners fill high skill jobs. Ether by immigration, or remote contract status.
And still the no/low skilled ones bunch up in cities. And the answer seems to be giving them housing, food, drugs and telling them to go to college, for which they are not prepared, or capable.
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Screw that. Loggers ain't made for that, any more than cowboys are.
And how exactly do you sell a rural homestead and come up with enough money to move six kids and a wife to a place where real estate and rental is five times what your whole place is worth? You're crazy.
With regards to the example, companies will *PAY* for your move.
Quit looking for excuses.
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Add Arizona and New Mexico, since they too are in that same Rocky Mountain corridor.
I didn't know the Taiga forest went that far south... Been as far south as Silverton/Animas canyon... Kinda four corners... seemed to me it was petering out... Which is why I went back north
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The major phone makers, have expensive versions for rich US customers. But they have cheaper versions, for India.
I have an HTC E8 which uses a plastic case, instead of a metal case. I put them into anther protective case anyway. I bought a brand new E8 for $240 from Sprint, instead of over $500-1,000 for the latest offerings by Apple, Samsung, LG, HTC, etc.
Different models, not versions.
The LG G6 sold in India is the same LG G6 sold in America. And most of the cheaper models sold in India are also sold here (with the same stats).
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Your remarks sound like a "chip on your shoulder," about rural people, and a babyboomers.
But the same capitalism forces you suggest for them, apply to EVERYBODY (age cohort), ANYWHERE (rural, suburban and rural).
Yes it does.
Yet some adapt... and some refuse to. Instead looking for a Lord and Savior to have the government bail them out.
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Well it's easy to say retraining, until you measure it against the scope of the thing.
No, there is plenty of jobs out there if you look, are willing to retrain, and to move.
Not to mention that if people actually started really taking that up (like so many did at the height of the 2008 economic crisis; which caused some to scream about how unfair that was)...
...it produces a boom in retraining jobs, as well. ITT Tech rode that wave.
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No, there is plenty of jobs out there if you look, are willing to retrain, and to move.
No, not really.
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No, there is plenty of jobs out there if you look, are willing to retrain, and to move.
Easiest thing in the world to say.
One of the hardest things, if not next to impossible, for a middle aged or above person to do.
In fact its dangerously close to a fallacy.
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No, not really.
Have you tried?
Gone to a technical school, community college, university? Taken online courses? Completed a managerial or IT certification? (Hopefully, you are in an area whose voting population hasn't voted away job retraining programs. If not and you voted for the politicians that did so, you've got no one to blame but yourself for the predicament.)
Wrote a resume and placed it on LinkedIn?
Hell, if you are taking university courses, you can have those same course applied to a community college degree... and knock out two birds with one stone.
Don't think I don't know what it feels like to think that there 'aren't any jobs for me'. I know that feeling. And I didn't like it one bit. So I *DID* something to make me marketable.
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Easiest thing in the world to say.
One of the hardest things, if not next to impossible, for a middle aged or above person to do.
In fact its dangerously close to a fallacy.
No. I'm 44 and just went through it. On the older end of middle-aged, too.
But it does require learned a skill that is in demand.
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No. I'm 44 and just went through it. On the older end of middle-aged, too.
But it does require learned a skill that is in demand.
I went through it as well. But only because I live in an area with ample opportunity. AND I had a spouse that could carry the load while I learned a new trade.
If I was the primary bread winner with a family it would've been IMPOSSIBLE.
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I went through it as well. But only because I live in an area with ample opportunity. AND I had a spouse that could carry the load while I learned a new trade.
If I was the primary bread winner with a family it would've been IMPOSSIBLE.
Why do you think I keep mentioning job retraining programs? That's a good investment of taxpayer dollars, as it gets people back on their feet and into an equal or better paying job. Which then means that the funds spent are more than repaid.
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Have you tried?
Gone to a technical school, community college, university? Taken online courses? Completed a managerial or IT certification?
Like I said, I haven't had a job since i was 18.
My managerial skills come from the multiple businesses I have had all my life.
Screw school, and certs. I am self taught and do just fine.
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Why do you think I keep mentioning job retraining programs? That's a good investment of taxpayer dollars, as it gets people back on their feet and into an equal or better paying job. Which then means that the funds spent are more than repaid.
How does a person, who has spent years, sometimes decades, climbing the salary ladder in one field, switch jobs and start from the bottom in another - and still maintain a family?
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No, not really.
I get what you are trying to tell them. I really do.
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Why do you think I keep mentioning job retraining programs? That's a good investment of taxpayer dollars, as it gets people back on their feet and into an equal or better paying job. Which then means that the funds spent are more than repaid.
I looked at retraining in 2010. They had plenty of money available. Oh...you're not a minority disabled woman...good luck...NEXT!
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How does a person, who has spent years, sometimes decades, climbing the salary ladder in one field, switch jobs and start from the bottom in another - and still maintain a family?
You pick an in-demand field.
The example I gave for CAD/CAM assisted machining starts around $80,000. And that's a high-growth field too.
$80,000 goes a long way.
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You pick an in-demand field.
The example I gave for CAD/CAM assisted machining starts around $80,000. And that's a high-growth field too.
$80,000 goes a long way.
yeah... half as far as 30k out in the sticks.
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yeah... half as far as 30k out in the sticks.
You really don't want a job unless it's what you expect, yes?
Millenial much?
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You really don't want a job unless it's what you expect, yes?
Nope. I ain't proud.
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And how exactly do you sell a rural homestead and come up with enough money to move six kids and a wife to a place where real estate and rental is five times what your whole place is worth? You're crazy.
Having six kids is a luxury many people decide against when they can't afford it.
I think there is much lost when a rural lifestyle is lost, but how much of keeping it should be put onto others "for the national goid"?
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Having six kids is a luxury many people decide against when they can't afford it.
I think there is much lost when a rural lifestyle is lost, but how much of keeping it should be put onto others "for the national goid"?
I've had fair income... Comes and goes. It's just a way of keeping score. That ain't wealth.
The bounty ain't what's on the table. The bounty is what's around the table... And that's the first rural principle that is never understood by city folks, and why I don't understand them at all, and never will.
Sure it can get hard-scrabble. But that's what we're made for. If I get caught out here, I can make do. Not in the city.
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This is free market capitalism. A level playing field.
(https://betterexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/sine/sine-plot.gif)
This is free market capitalism with government intervention.
(https://d1k5w7mbrh6vq5.cloudfront.net/images/cache/63/26/ef/6326efb5fbdabe55fd209fb898e46c43.png)
Ah, @roamer_1. They'll be ok. Their food comes from the store...
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Ah, @roamer_1. They'll be ok. Their food comes from the store...
@bigheadfred
That's right, it does, don't it. Heh.
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So have most locations in America. Write that off to historically low interest rates, for one thing.
Yeah. They call that a bubble.....
(https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2017/4/47965133_14913690172397_rId6_thumb.jpg)
'A bad idea': More new mortgages are risky ones
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/03/12/concerns-riskier-mortgages-sprouting/98954348/
Riskier borrowers are making up a growing share of new mortgages, pushing up delinquencies modestly and raising concerns about an eventual spike in defaults that could slow or derail the housing recovery.
Can hardly tell your a real estate agent.
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Not if Canadians are underselling Americans because of Canadian subsidies.
That would be a violation of NAFTA.
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They set out to fix something that wasn't broke and completely annihilated it.
For greed.
For all the people who had a hand in it. Or shrug if off.
You are the same type of people who are generational welfare recipients. Gimme dats.
Congratulations.