Author Topic: Trump just posted that the US signed the biggest oil deal in world history with Venezuela.  (Read 1656 times)

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Offline Timber Rattler

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Cool!  I'm down with that!
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Not only making America Great Again..Making the Americas Great Again.  Whole lotta MAGA goin' on. 

Trump....:da man: :da man:
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Not only making America Great Again..Making the Americas Great Again.  Whole lotta MAGA goin' on. 

Trump....:da man: :da man:

 888high58888

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Wait....

I have been retired from the oil industry a decade and a half, but I seem to remember that at the time that there was only one refinery in the United States that had the ability to process the sour (sulfur) crude that Venezuela produces.    Citgo in Lake Charles, Louisiana.

Maybe something has changed or someplants  retrofitted, but that was problem all along.  Too much sulfur in the crude for US to process.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Sounds good and all that, and should alleviate some needed supply issues for our refinery feedstock.

Still, for longer term, I have doubts it will be preserved.  World history demonstrates oil companies will fail to have their contracts honored by host countries.

They have already been burned 2X by Venezuela, and exactly how will the US back them up? Militarily seems a non-starter as we know the fervor Venezuelans can have.

And subsequent administrations will most likely not so adamently pursue.

Don't want to dwell on negatives.

A present boon for the US.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Wait....

I have been retired from the oil industry a decade and a half, but I seem to remember that at the time that there was only one refinery in the United States that had the ability to process the sour (sulfur) crude that Venezuela produces.    Citgo in Lake Charles, Louisiana.

Maybe something has changed or someplants  retrofitted, but that was problem all along.  Too much sulfur in the crude for US to process.
If true we have few plants to process sulfur, we can always swap crude with those that do.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

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US Gulf refineries ready to run Venezuelan crude

HOUSTON, Jan 7 (Reuters) - Refineries along the U.S. Gulf Coast from Corpus Christi, Texas to Pascagoula, Mississippi are configured to run the heavy sour, corrosive crude oil produced by Venezuela that President Donald Trump plans to sell in the U.S., following the capture last weekend of Nicolas Maduro.
Beginning in the 1990s, refiners reconfigured their plants with increased coking capacity and upgraded steel to be able to process growing supply from producers of dense, high-sulfur crude, like Venezuela, Mexico and Ecuador. ...

Rest at headline link
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Build more bubble towers!

That's coking units for you nimrods.  wink777
Scientists, like all discoverers of truth, have always asked, "What?” “How?” “Why?” “What if?” and “Why not?” Questioning science is science.

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Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

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Ro Khanna: Trump Taking Venezuelan Oil Is ‘Morally Wrong’

Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA) said Friday on MS NOW’s “All In” that President Donald Trump’s agreement giving the U.S. majority control over more than 65 billion barrels of Venezuelan’s oil reserves is “morally wrong.”

Host Chris Hayes said, “I want to Host Chris Hayes said, “I want to ask you about something he said today. He just announced that having abducted a president of that country, that we are now going to essentially get all their oil reserves. This is a huge deal. And we’ve now taken over, essentially, Venezuelan oil reserves. Do you think there’s still like a core of anti-imperial civic culture in this country, in which just people understand there’s something wrong about abducting a country’s leader to take their oil?”

Khanna said, “Sad to see. It’s like we’ve rolled back the clock 100 years. Yeah, the era of gunboat diplomacy and, you know, the history. So what we did in Guatemala, what we did in El Salvador, what we did in Haiti, but it’s wrong. It’s wrong to have a colonial model of the world. I mean, my grandfather was in jail twice fighting for British independence. And it was FDR who pushed Churchill to decolonize. And I thought America, had stood for decolonization. Trump is rolling it all back because he simply believes in a world where might makes right, where you take what you can. And we need to oppose it on moral grounds. It’s not just that it’s strategically wrong. It’s morally wrong. It’s not what America should be, given our principles.”

more
https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2026/08/28/ro-khanna-trump-taking-venezuelan-oil-is-morally-wrong/
Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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As long as oil prices stay up I'm ok with it....
Why do you believe there is a problem here?
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Offline Idiot

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Why do you believe there is a problem here?
When oil prices go sub $50 no one can make any money.  The price of any oil field service is insane now.  For instance a logging job we did last week cost us $2500 a couple of years ago and now it's $7200.  This logging company is barely making it even at those prices.  If prices fall, they are toast.  They are basically locked in on these prices, as their labor, insurance, maintenance costs are pretty well fixed.
« Last Edit: Saturday, Aug 29, 2026 01:39 pm by Idiot »

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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When oil prices go sub $50 no one can make any money.  The price of any oil field service is insane now.  For instance a logging job we did last week cost us $2500 a couple of years ago and now it's $7200.  This logging company is barely making it even at those prices.  If prices fall, they are toast.  They are basically locked in on these prices, as their labor, insurance, maintenance costs are pretty well fixed.
When oil prices go south people scale back drilling wells and/or fraccing, or at least in all but the most profitable areas.

Oil companies do not stop operating or producing.

Are you suggesting operating costs are $50/bbl?

If so, I challenge you on that one, as even average operating costs are far less than $50/bbl.
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If so, I challenge you on that one, as even average operating costs are far less than $50/bbl.

Interested in showing data on that.  I would say that $70.00 a barrel for WTI is the sweet spot for long term production and price per gallon for fuel.
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Offline Idiot

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When oil prices go south people scale back drilling wells and/or fraccing, or at least in all but the most profitable areas.

Oil companies do not stop operating or producing.

Are you suggesting operating costs are $50/bbl?

If so, I challenge you on that one, as even average operating costs are far less than $50/bbl.
Our operating costs are well below that, BUT we will not drill a well below $50 as it's just not worth it.  Sadly, we are the most active operator in this part of Texas as everyone else has retired, closed up shop, etc. 

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When oil prices go south people scale back drilling wells and/or fraccing, or at least in all but the most profitable areas.

Oil companies do not stop operating or producing.

Are you suggesting operating costs are $50/bbl?

If so, I challenge you on that one, as even average operating costs are far less than $50/bbl.
It isn't the operating costs alone, but the $10 million or so it costs to drill and complete (including frac) the well that has to be recouped that adds to what the price that needs to be for the well to be profitable.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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It isn't the operating costs alone, but the $10 million or so it costs to drill and complete (including frac) the well that has to be recouped that adds to what the price that needs to be for the well to be profitable.
I understand that.  He said no one will make any money below $50/b.

That is erroneous as capital is scaled back at lower crude prices and profit remains for the operator on existing production.

A bit dated, but graph 11 shows the differentials across US basins which average between $10/b to $20/b
https://incorrys.com/videos/NorthAmericanOilCost-October2024.pdf
« Last Edit: Sunday, Aug 30, 2026 04:06 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

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https://twitter.com/nicksortor/status/2094067954002309225

Filling up the Strategic Reserves is needed and a very smart move.

Perhaps gas prices will start to go down right before the mid terms   :whistle: 
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Filling up the Strategic Reserves is needed and a very smart move.

Perhaps gas prices will start to go down right before the mid terms   :whistle:
Doubt they will go down next 3 months, as what Trump proposes is improving infrastructure and more wells.  That takes time.

And everyone else will be building up reserves as well. Not just US.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Doubt they will go down next 3 months, as what Trump proposes is improving infrastructure and more wells.  That takes time.

And everyone else will be building up reserves as well. Not just US.
Chevron says will take 5 years to ramp up production.
https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-chevron-trump-oil-4d77fa9a9d53fc8693a242fbbb07fcef

Don't hold your breath to have oil prices fall this year on the basis of this deal.
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Chevron says will take 5 years to ramp up production.
https://apnews.com/article/venezuela-chevron-trump-oil-4d77fa9a9d53fc8693a242fbbb07fcef

Don't hold your breath to have oil prices fall this year on the basis of this deal.

Or .....  Just in time for the next dim (socialist) POTUS Congress who will resume the trend toward banning fossil fuels. 
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Trump, Venezuelan Oil, and National Security

The core attributes of any energy source are reliability, cost, and security. Gaining control of Venezuela’s vast oil reserves advances each of those attributes for the benefit of America and Americans.

William R. Hawkins | September 4, 2026

What President Donald Trump called “the biggest oil deal in world history” when it was announced last week is not the only highly favorable deal his administration has made with the “interim authorities” in Venezuela. Last May, it was announced that the global commodities firm Mercuria Energy Group had secured outtake agreements covering much of Venezuela’s extensive mineral holdings. Gold grabbed the headlines, but nickel, aluminum, coltan, and other critical minerals essential for electric vehicles, artificial intelligence, and modern defense systems are the real strategic gains to ensure more secure supply chains for American manufacturing. While private capital is essential for developing these resources, the true direction is coming from the U.S. government to make sure our country benefits. This is the purpose of the National Energy Dominance Council created by President Trump with an eye on the rivalry for control of global resources that is driving plans in Beijing and Moscow as well as in Washington. The Treasury Department will exercise oversight of all transactions.

The oil deal with Venezuela takes this oversight even further. Under the agreement, North American Blue Energy Partners (NABEP), a privately held oil company that is the second-largest private Venezuelan oil producer, was given a 100-year concessions for 17 oil fields with proven reserves of approximately 65 billion barrels. In turn, NABEP “granted the U.S. Department of War’s Office of Strategic Capital a 35% equity stake in its corporate parent, representing up to hundreds of billions in value and dividends for the United States.” This is called “golden shares” and has been common in many other countries to secure strategic assets for the national interest. Golden shares give governments veto power over corporate actions that could jeopardize economic or national security or move productive assets out of the country and into foreign hands. President Trump first used this measure in the merger of U.S. Steel and Nippon Steel to mandate that American steelmaking capacity would not be moved overseas.

Golden shares have been denounced as “protectionist” by globalists who want the freedom to operate without regard to national consequences. However, we have experienced the grim decades when the globalist ideology held sway in Washington, and huge sections of the nation’s industrial base were allowed to be moved overseas. We became dependent on untrustworthy “others” and hamstrung in mobilizing in a crisis. We are in dire need of “protectionism” both to rebuild core capabilities and create new ones. Foreign governments also complain that their interests are harmed, as China has done in regard to the Venezuela oil deal. But the U.S. government is properly concerned first and foremost with the protection of national interests. Given the rivalry between America and China, Beijing’s objections are only another indicator of the success of President Trump’s policies.

<..snip..>

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2026/09/trump-venezuelan-oil-and-national-security/
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Filling up the Strategic Reserves is needed and a very smart move.

Perhaps gas prices will start to go down right before the mid terms   :whistle:
Still believing prices will decline?

Oil Industry Braces for Years-Long Iran War
By Irina Slav - Sep 12, 2026, 6:00 PM CDT

Oil industry executives are preparing for a prolonged U.S.-Iran war, with little expectation of a quick political settlement and oil prices likely staying higher for longer.
Physical oil markets are even tighter than $100+ Brent suggests, as tanker rates, insurance costs and premiums for alternative crude supplies soar.
The fuel crunch is becoming particularly severe, with refiners running hard but insufficient global capacity to replace lost Middle Eastern and Russian supplies. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Oil-Industry-Braces-for-Years-Long-Iran-War.html
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Offline Smokin Joe

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I understand that.  He said no one will make any money below $50/b.

That is erroneous as capital is scaled back at lower crude prices and profit remains for the operator on existing production.

A bit dated, but graph 11 shows the differentials across US basins which average between $10/b to $20/b
https://incorrys.com/videos/NorthAmericanOilCost-October2024.pdf
When in demand costs rise (it's the old supply and demand thing). During any boom, rig rates and all services can cost double what they do when drilling is in the doldrums. I'm sure your analysts have it all figured out over the long haul, but the problem is, when the landmen are getting lease agreements signed, to get control of acreage is expensive. At the beginning of the Bakken boom (2000), when we were drilling in what would become Elm Coulee Field in Richland County, Montana, lease costs on acreage were as low as 25 cents an acre with a 12 1/2 percent royalty. When the word got out, and the concept had been proven (2008), prime lease acreage in North Dakota was leasing at $5,000 an acre, with a 20% royalty.
Not all of those wells produced, to the surprise of many. We were still defining the extent of the play, and what could be drilled when it cost $10 million just to drill the well (because rig rates, services, tubular goods (casing), even the pile of valves that go on a wellhead were all at a premium, as was trucking). To entice people into going to work in a cyclical industry, pay was not only top dollar, but allowances or housing (my town doubled in size in 7 years) were included, per diem rates at maximum, and all sorts of incentives were tacked on, just to get people to train to do the work. When the boom settled down, (consider 'walking rigs', multiwell pads, MWD and downhole tool reliability and efficiency all became commonplace), the 13,500 ft. vertical well that took 120 days to drill from spud to TD was now replaced with 21,000 ft. wells (10,000 down, 10,000 ft. of lateral, and the curve to get there) drilled in 10 days or less.
Either way, as all that was being developed, there was considerable expense involved, and some things did not work so well. Those that did were quickly adopted, but that immediately pushed the old kelly rigs into obsolescence, those without the pumps to run a mud motor at 4500 PSI of standpipe pressure for days were pushed to the side while those which could were at a premium. It was a great time to be in the industry, and a lot of changes happened.

Add in the Biden years, where a $50K pickup went up to $90K and every aspect of the industry became more expensive. Those costs haven't dropped much. They are written into every producing well, along with frac and completion costs, the costs of production equipment (which has borne the burden of moving target regulation over flaring gas, and the costs of emplacing feeder pipelines, building gas plants and oil processing facilities, and that development continues.

For an operator (oil company) to state they need $XX per barrel to be profitable isn't nonsense, it's just running the numbers on an industry where tomorrow's product price is always a gamble, and the costs of production tend to increase as the well ages, with additional production water to dispose of and changing gas/oil ratios requiring constant agility in production methods and rates to maximize profits.
If your guys are including legacy production from the 1980s or 1990s, for instance, before the boom reset rates everywhere (those housing prices are not going back down, not on the new units anyway, so the costs of personnel to keep things running won't drop much, either), then the numbers will not fully reflect the cost of new wells, because it averages in legacy production. That production is increasingly expensive to maintain over time, not a fixed cost, and includes the expense of downhole tool changes and failures, and maintaining equipment and locations in the face of intangibles, not the least of which is the weather itself.
Keep in mind, this isn't a charity, no matter how patriotic we may all be. There has to be something in it for the shareholders, or there won't be any CAPEX for the next round. It's like you have a store, you built it, you pay the help, but you can't stock the shelves again. You can only sell what you have. No doubt there is a built in 'cushion' in that minimum, but that's what funds the future, and keeps the company viable. It isn't just the $10 million in the ground for the last well, it's the $10 million (or more?) for the next one that has to be factored in.
« Last Edit: Sunday, Sep 13, 2026 09:53 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Idiot

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When in demand costs rise (it's the old supply and demand thing). During any boom, rig rates and all services can cost double what they do when drilling is in the doldrums. I'm sure your analysts have it all figured out over the long haul, but the problem is, when the landmen are getting lease agreements signed, to get control of acreage is expensive. At the beginning of the Bakken boom (2000), when we were drilling in what would become Elm Coulee Field in Richland County, Montana, lease costs on acreage were as low as 25 cents an acre with a 12 1/2 percent royalty. When the word got out, and the concept had been proven (2008), prime lease acreage in North Dakota was leasing at $5,000 an acre, with a 20% royalty.
Not all of those wells produced, to the surprise of many. We were still defining the extent of the play, and what could be drilled when it cost $10 million just to drill the well (because rig rates, services, tubular goods (casing), even the pile of valves that go on a wellhead were all at a premium, as was trucking). To entice people into going to work in a cyclical industry, pay was not only top dollar, but allowances or housing (my town doubled in size in 7 years) were included, per diem rates at maximum, and all sorts of incentives were tacked on, just to get people to train to do the work. When the boom settled down, (consider 'walking rigs', multiwell pads, MWD and downhole tool reliability and efficiency all became commonplace), the 13,500 ft. vertical well that took 120 days to drill from spud to TD was now replaced with 21,000 ft. wells (10,000 down, 10,000 ft. of lateral, and the curve to get there) drilled in 10 days or less.
Either way, as all that was being developed, there was considerable expense involved, and some things did not work so well. Those that did were quickly adopted, but that immediately pushed the old kelly rigs into obsolescence, those without the pumps to run a mud motor at 4500 PSI of standpipe pressure for days were pushed to the side while those which could were at a premium. It was a great time to be in the industry, and a lot of changes happened.

Add in the Biden years, where a $50K pickup went up to $90K and every aspect of the industry became more expensive. Those costs haven't dropped much. They are written into every producing well, along with frac and completion costs, the costs of production equipment (which has borne the burden of moving target regulation over flaring gas, and the costs of emplacing feeder pipelines, building gas plants and oil processing facilities, and that development continues.

For an operator (oil company) to state they need $XX per barrel to be profitable isn't nonsense, it's just running the numbers on an industry where tomorrow's product price is always a gamble, and the costs of production tend to increase as the well ages, with additional production water to dispose of and changing gas/oil ratios requiring constant agility in production methods and rates to maximize profits.
If your guys are including legacy production from the 1980s or 1990s, for instance, before the boom reset rates everywhere (those housing prices are not going back down, not on the new units anyway, so the costs of personnel to keep things running won't drop much, either), then the numbers will not fully reflect the cost of new wells, because it averages in legacy production. That production is increasingly expensive to maintain over time, not a fixed cost, and includes the expense of downhole tool changes and failures, and maintaining equipment and locations in the face of intangibles, not the least of which is the weather itself.
Keep in mind, this isn't a charity, no matter how patriotic we may all be. There has to be something in it for the shareholders, or there won't be any CAPEX for the next round. It's like you have a store, you built it, you pay the help, but you can't stock the shelves again. You can only sell what you have. No doubt there is a built in 'cushion' in that minimum, but that's what funds the future, and keeps the company viable. It isn't just the $10 million in the ground for the last well, it's the $10 million (or more?) for the next one that has to be factored in.
FYI...they've started doing 2 mile horseshoe laterals in our area now.  2 miles out and 2 miles back....just insane.

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FYI...they've started doing 2 mile horseshoe laterals in our area now.  2 miles out and 2 miles back....just insane.
We have those, and a few 4 mile (straight) laterals. It has caused some rethinking on the production/drilling end because the pressure loss to friction at the toe of the lateral is enough to affect the quality of a frac out there. Production liners are being rethought from the old 4 inch liners used on two-mile laterals to 4 1/2 or even 5 inch liners to reduce pumping friction.

It sure has changed a lot from the days of vertical wells and kelly rigs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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FYI...they've started doing 2 mile horseshoe laterals in our area now.  2 miles out and 2 miles back....just insane.
Keep doing it that way, and before too long the entire field can be drilled by just a few wells.

It is insane and technology is making it happen.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline Smokin Joe

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Keep doing it that way, and before too long the entire field can be drilled by just a few wells.

It is insane and technology is making it happen.
I have seen the map of the laterals in the Williston Basin (home of the Bakken and Three Forks Formations). I wonder what the future effects will be on seismic exploration, with all that steel down there causing reflections and refractions, and foresee a lot of collision avoidance if and when deeper plays get tapped. The Bakken is low hanging fruit, but there are other formations below that system which have produced over a billion barrels of oil out of vertical wells.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I have seen the map of the laterals in the Williston Basin (home of the Bakken and Three Forks Formations). I wonder what the future effects will be on seismic exploration, with all that steel down there causing reflections and refractions, and foresee a lot of collision avoidance if and when deeper plays get tapped. The Bakken is low hanging fruit, but there are other formations below that system which have produced over a billion barrels of oil out of vertical wells.
Drill into an existing well, and you will likely lose all the drilling fluids.  Bet that would be a pain.

In my Austin Chalk days in the early 90s, almost every well we drilled had zero returns at some point after the chalk was encountered.

The fractures were so prevalent that we were forced to drill that way.  Constant flaring of natural gas and oil without mud returns.

Scared me to death but it worked.

One well we could make no headway for several days immediately after we made the turn, and produced 2,000 bo,

We finally stopped drilling and settled for only a 60' leg.  I accused the drilling manager of attempting to takeover the production department.

“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline Smokin Joe

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Drill into an existing well, and you will likely lose all the drilling fluids.  Bet that would be a pain.

In my Austin Chalk days in the early 90s, almost every well we drilled had zero returns at some point after the chalk was encountered.

The fractures were so prevalent that we were forced to drill that way.  Constant flaring of natural gas and oil without mud returns.

Scared me to death but it worked.

One well we could make no headway for several days immediately after we made the turn, and produced 2,000 bo,

We finally stopped drilling and settled for only a 60' leg.  I accused the drilling manager of attempting to takeover the production department.
The problem is real. I know of a couple 'collisions'--that's a P&A up here, not good. Most of our laterals trend N/S, but some of the earlier ones went E/W. In situations where the operator(s) decide to drill development wells that cross the earlier well, that's where the real risk is involved.

But drilling down to deeper formations will be a challenge in the future (there's a spiderweb of production liner in those laterals a quarter mile (+/-) apart), and seismic interpretation just got a bunch harder.

Before the Bakken became a 'thing', we were doing short laterals up on the Nesson Anticline in another formation, and there was a point where we just got nothing back to surface except for the occasional puff of gas. Fluid losses were controlled by pump rate, and enough cuttings built up in the lateral that MWD could get a pulse back to surface. I never did find out how those wells worked out, because I ended up in a not so pleasant discussion with the operator's rep who wanted us to be there, monitor everything, but only get standby rates. Standby, traditionally, has meant you're within 24 hours of being on site and ready to go, at least for geologists, not hanging out on location for a full tour and definitely not at half pay instead of full pay. THat did not go especially well, but it worked out.

I ended up doing wells for Headington, who sold out to XTO, who sold out to Exxon, and got a run that lasted nearly 18 years working with the same folks, for the most part, as a consultant geologist. That got me in on the Bakken play in Elm Coulee in 2000, very early on.
« Last Edit: Sunday, Sep 13, 2026 02:56 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis