Last week Canada’s Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto family’s decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canada’s most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the family’s choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.
In other words: Canada has death panels.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/10/canada_has_death_panels_and_that_s_a_good_thing.html
Mark Steyn said it best filling in for Rush today. Canadians have a two-tiered healthcare system. The Canadian system that sucks and the American system they flock south to utilize.
Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.
I've seen the Canadian system firsthand. My father lived in Canada for the last 15 years of his life, and in that period had a heart bypass and quite a bit of other attention. Waiting lines, shared accommodations (usually four to a room), unsanitary conditions in comparison to USA facilities, and deferred maintenance all over the place. The only good thing about it is that Canadians themselves seem to be proud of it.
I will say that while my father would have received better care in the USA, he would not have been able to afford it, so he may have been better off in Canada. He'd have died heavily in debt in the USA (he was not yet old enough for Medicare). Even so, he wouldn't have been able to afford Obamacare, either.
You've pretty much hit the main points of how people on each side of the border like to view the other side. It really comes down to the philosophies behind each system. Americans look at healthcare as a right or a privilege bought and paid for. Canadians view healthcare as a requirement of a functioning society that should be delivered as efficiently as possible. The way each system is developed on each side of the border is a reflection of the difference in the philosophy
The population of Canada is about 1/10 th of USA.
Is there a point or did you just want to contribute a factual observation?
Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.
Is the Canadian 'advantage' to wait for routine surgery for months or years that you would get within weeks here in the US?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by routine. If it is elective the wait is longer. If it is life saving the wait is less so. That question is like asking is an American advantage to file bankruptcy after recieving necessary healthcare. It plays into a popular misconception or weakness in a system that is less reflective of the norm.
Interesting. Without knowing all the facts I'll take the anecdote with a grain of salt. My wife, a Canadian tore her ACL skiing in Canada and received the appropriate surgery and rehabilitation on a timely basis. If you want to advocate one system over another, perhaps a reasonable place to start would be with the fact that most Canadians are satisfied with their system and most Americans are not. A dispassionate examination of the pros and cons could go from there
It's an odd thing to be on a conservative forum and have someone arguing in favor of socialized medicine.
Government control of our healthcare??
A disastrous idea.
Period.
After years of many discussions and first hand observations and experiences I've come to my own conclusions regarding healthcare in each place.
Most Canadians would disagree. In fact as much as The Americans like to scoff at the Canadian system, the Canadians are generally appalled at the US system. To be fair, they both offer some advantage over the other.
The goal of ObamaCare is a national transformation from a country where 85% had health insurance & of those 87% were happy with their plan, to one where almost no one will be happy with what they have been forced to take.
Xfreeper can you document the latter part of this statement (bolded): I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not
That is at least the 2nd time you have made that claim but how does that reconcile with a contravening statement from another thread started by Mystery:
THE TRUE PURPOSE OF OBAMACARE: A SINGLE PAYER TROJAN HORSE
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,117324.msg474706.html#msg474706
Now I recognize being happy with your health care plan is not the same as being happy with your health care, or the health care system, but it does indicate Americans are not all that upset with what we already have. Thus I am asking you to show your evidence for, I do think it is a little telling that Canadians are basically happy with their system and Americans are not
I like the American healthcare system. I liked it better when I had a traditional plan. The kind where you go to the doctor, you pay the doctor and you get reimbursed or you submit to the insurance company.
HMOs became popular when baby boomers found out they are going to die and they weren't going to have any of that. 3 score and 10 sounds pretty good to me considering I came real close to shuffling loose the mortal coil at age 50.
My sister relates to Sarah Palin when it comes to having a mentally handicapped child and the worry you have over their health care.
My nephew is chronologically almost eighteen but mentally, he's around seven or eight.
My sister worries about his future and how Obama care will handle his situation if he were to need some type of surgery.
I can see where an "advisory board" appointed by Obama would not consider him "worthy."
It's a real fear if you take into consideration what Obama has said in the past about his plan.
There are many other articles and info on the subject if you wouyld like to do your own research
Well, no, I wouldn't as I am not the one who made the claim Americans are not happy with their health care system. You did. Moreover the one article you did link talked mostly about the Canadian health system, not the American, which is what I asked about.
"Back in the 1960s, Castonguay chaired a Canadian government committee studying health reform and recommended that his home province of Quebec — then the largest and most affluent in the country — adopt government-administered health care, covering all citizens through tax levies.
"The government followed his advice, leading to his modern-day moniker: “the father of Quebec medicare.” Even this title seems modest; Castonguay’s work triggered a domino effect across the country, until eventually his ideas were implemented from coast to coast.
"Four decades later, as the chairman of a government committee reviewing Quebec health care this year, Castonguay concluded that the system is in “crisis.”
“We thought we could resolve the system’s problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it,” says Castonguay. But now he prescribes a radical overhaul: “We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice.”
thanks to ICD-10 and the governments voracious appetite for nonsensical data the doctor will now have to document no only the location and size of the laceration, whether is was a simple or complicated laceration and whether it affected tendons and a simple, intermediate of complex repair they will need to document what caused the laceration, where you received the laceration........ if you fell why did you fall, how did you fall... where were you when you fell.. - out walking? Where were you walking, was it city, state of county property, oh you were in a park? City park, state park or a national park....... do you or does any member of your family own a gun ...
... do you or does any member of your family own a gun ...
I like the American healthcare system. I liked it better when I had a traditional plan. The kind where you go to the doctor, you pay the doctor and you get reimbursed or you submit to the insurance company.
And now as if Obamacare isn't back enough next year HHS is implementing - mandatory ICD-10. now you go to the doctor with a laceration... he doesn't need to just look and say - yep you have a laceration and repair it -- nope thanks to ICD-10 and the governments voracious appetite for nonsensical data the doctor will now have to document no only the location and size of the laceration, whether is was a simple or complicated laceration and whether it affected tendons and a simple, intermediate of complex repair they will need to document what caused the laceration, where you received the laceration........ if you fell why did you fall, how did you fall... where were you when you fell.. - out walking? Where were you walking, was it city, state of county property, oh you were in a park? City park, state park or a national park....
And people think doctors are over paid /s
Yes, Rap. That's the crux of my dissatisfaction with practice today. I easily get 5 to 10 emails from CMS every day regarding regulatory nonsense. And I can't understand a one of them. They're written in bureaucratease. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!
And now as if Obamacare isn't back enough next year HHS is implementing - mandatory ICD-10. now you go to the doctor with a laceration... he doesn't need to just look and say - yep you have a laceration and repair it -- nope thanks to ICD-10 and the governments voracious appetite for nonsensical data the doctor will now have to document no only the location and size of the laceration, whether is was a simple or complicated laceration and whether it affected tendons and a simple, intermediate of complex repair they will need to document what caused the laceration, where you received the laceration........ if you fell why did you fall, how did you fall... where were you when you fell.. - out walking? Where were you walking, was it city, state of county property, oh you were in a park? City park, state park or a national park....
And people think doctors are over paid /s
Sheesh - really? I go to a medic with a hole in me, I want it stitching up, pronto. That is it. My life history is way too boring to inflict on someone else. Hell, the last time my life flashed before my eyes, I fell asleep half way through. :laugh:
I've seen the Canadian system firsthand. My father lived in Canada for the last 15 years of his life, and in that period had a heart bypass and quite a bit of other attention. Waiting lines, shared accommodations (usually four to a room), unsanitary conditions in comparison to USA facilities, and deferred maintenance all over the place. The only good thing about it is that Canadians themselves seem to be proud of it.
I will say that while my father would have received better care in the USA, he would not have been able to afford it, so he may have been better off in Canada. He'd have died heavily in debt in the USA (he was not yet old enough for Medicare). Even so, he wouldn't have been able to afford Obamacare, either.
He would have died heavily in debt only if he had some anacronistic fear of bankruptcy. Hospital debt can be discharged just as tax debt can be discharged.