The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Energy => Topic started by: thackney on March 23, 2017, 01:46:57 pm
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Virginia to Utilize Old Coal Mines for Hydropower
http://breakingenergy.com/2017/03/22/hydropower-viginia-coal-mines-water-transition-energy-project/
By MICHAEL VINCI on March 22, 2017
The coal industry may be dying, but the skeletons left behind in the form of abandoned mines can provide new life. The water left behind by the once industrious business is planned to be used by the state of Virginia, in the development of pumped storage hydro-electric power plants.
However, this particular strategy to source water has been receiving some criticism. The bill to support the building of the power plants received nearly unanimous support in both the state Senate and the House of Delegates. However, researchers, coal reclamation experts, and renewable energy advocates alike have voiced concerns, citing that the idea is yet to be proven. Pumped storage facilities do exist elsewhere in Virginia, but using water from abandoned coal mines is an innovation to be tested anywhere in the world.
The proposed locations for the new mines are in seven counties in the western end of the state. These counties have had many coal mines close recently, and the local economies have suffered as a result. Tax revenues from the mines were used to fund public schools and other government services.
The pumped hydroplants work by utilizing excess energy – usually intermittent energy from fluctuating renewable energy sources – to pump water uphill, where it is stored at higher elevations in a lake or reservoir. When demand for energy spikes, the water is allowed to flow downhill into a reservoir at a lower elevation, and the energy is recaptured using turbines....
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http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2017/03/in-virginia-push-for-pumped-storage-hydro-questions-arise-about-viability.html
...Pumped storage plants work by using cheap, excess electricity at night to pump water uphill into a higher elevation lake or reservoir. Energy can be recaptured during times of higher demand by reversing the flow and sending the water through turbines to a lower reservoir.
Pumped storage plants are operating throughout the world and have been assessed for abandoned iron pits in Minnesota, where the presence of iron and the threat of rust when water oxidizes threatens operations. In addition to the amount and the quality of the water needed, the coalfield region needs to be geologically stable, said Don Fosnacht, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota’s Natural Resources Institute.
Hayes Framme, Gov. McAuliffe’s point person on many energy issues as the state’s Deputy Secretary of the Department of Commerce and Trade, said engineers from the state’s Division of Mines, Minerals and Energy (DMME) have been kicking around the idea for several years. While pumped storage has never been tried with water trapped in abandoned coal mines, Tarah Kesterson, a spokeswoman for DMME, said her colleagues believe the iron levels to be below any harmful threshold.
Linda Church Ciocci, executive director of the National Hydropower Association, said a recently-licensed pumped storage project in Southern California by Eagle Crest Energy intends to draw on water from an abandoned mine east of Palm Springs and may bode well for similar approaches in Virginia....
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http://www.eaglecrestenergy.com/project-description.html
Eagle Mountain is located in Southern California, one of the largest and most dynamic electricity markets in the U.S. The project will augment the transmission grid connecting the large power markets of Southern and Mid-California, helping meet the requirements of the State for significant new and replacement power sources immediately and over the next several decades. The project will also assist the State with its mandated goal of 50% of energy to come from renewable sources by 2030.
The Eagle Mountain Pumped Storage Project will generate 1,300 MW of firm, stable, and dispatchable power when needed. It will provide electricity during the peak electrical demand periods, unexpected generation outages, and help correct imbalances in the southwestern grid. Pumped Storage is the only feasible, proven technology to store energy in the off-peak and utilize it during on-peak hours. Through its ability to utilize the off-peak energy produced by windmills, solar panels, and fossil fuel plants, this single project can accomplish the equivalent of many smaller peak-energy projects. This project will also help make renewable wind and solar projects fully integrated, reliable generation sources....
Eagle Mountain Mine was operated by Kaiser Steel Corporation from 1948 to 1982 for the mining and concentrating of iron ore through excavation of four open pits located on the land. Eagle Crest Energy obtained exclusive rights to study the site for development of a hydroelectric project from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (“Commission” or “FERC”). Using two of the excavated open mine pits as reservoirs, the Eagle Mountain Pumped Storage Project will store water in an upper reservoir for later release through an underground power plant to the lower reservoir, generating electricity during peak hours when it is needed most.
A Preliminary Permit was issued by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) in 2005, and renewed in August 2008. A Draft License Application (DLA) was submitted in June 2008, and a Final License Application (FLA) was filed on June 22, 2009 by the Eagle Crest Energy Company (“ECE”). The License to construct was issued in June 2014....
(https://upfrontcom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ECE-Project.jpg)
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Very cool.
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Goes to show the inefficiency of batteries when pumping water uphill is a more cost effective way to store potential energy. Interesting idea though. @Cripplecreek did you say they did or thought about something like this in your neck of the woods?
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Goes to show the inefficiency of batteries when pumping water uphill is a more cost effective way to store potential energy. Interesting idea though. @Cripplecreek did you say they did or thought about something like this in your neck of the woods?
Its (pump storage) OK for some areas but I think its a waste here in Michigan where we have so much flowing water.
They use wind produced electricity to pump water up hill to a reservoir and use the water flowing downhill to produce electricity during peak hours.
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isn't this water usually very polluted?
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isn't this water usually very polluted?
It is a closed-loop system. The containments that already exist in the area are not going to flow to other locations.
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It is a closed-loop system. The containments that already exist in the area are not going to flow to other locations.
true. I guess any liquid would work in such a system
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true. I guess any liquid would work in such a system
Both the upper and the lower reservoir are abandoned pit mines. More info at:
Eagle Crest Energy Company Project No. 13123-002
ORDER ISSUING ORIGINAL LICENSE
https://www.ferc.gov/whats-new/comm-meet/2014/061914/H-7.pdf
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does it take more power to pump it uphill than it makes coming down? Sounds like an economics thing more than a power plant. Then again, in Texas we have gas-fueled power plants that are used in a similar fashion - extra electricity at peak usage
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does it take more power to pump it uphill than it makes coming down? Sounds like an economics thing more than a power plant. Then again, in Texas we have gas-fueled power plants that are used in a similar fashion - extra electricity at peak usage
Of course it does, it's storing unused energy in the simplest form of potential energy.
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does it take more power to pump it uphill than it makes coming down?
Absolutely. Some have claims of ~80% efficiency.
http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/pumped-hydroelectric-storage
Sounds like an economics thing more than a power plant. Then again, in Texas we have gas-fueled power plants that are used in a similar fashion - extra electricity at peak usage
Wind and Solar are not dispatchable; you have to take the power when it comes, not necessarily when it is needed. Base load power plants are most efficient fully loaded running 24/7.
Combining those with pump storage or other energy storage systems allows more peak load to be serviced on demand.
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It seems like the system is a substitute for batteries.
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It seems like the system is a substitute for batteries.
Cheaper, more efficient and longer lasting.
Utilities are trying to find batteries that compete with pumped storage.
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Cheaper, more efficient and longer lasting.
Utilities are trying to find batteries that compete with pumped storage.
Texas is really flat, so we'll stick to gas-fueled back-up power plants. We'll need them when the wind doesn't blow.
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This system's potential is dramatic, dependent upon the situation.
I see another benefit is minimal loss of fluids via evaporation as compared to a dam impoundment.
Very practical if conditions are right, and an innovative use of some environmental headaches like abandoned coal mines.
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I see another benefit is minimal loss of fluids via evaporation as compared to a dam impoundment.
I don't understand the difference. Both are using open air reservoirs.
(https://upfrontcom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ECE-Project.jpg)
Open pit mines, not below grade mines.
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Texas is really flat, so we'll stick to gas-fueled back-up power plants. We'll need them when the wind doesn't blow.
We have a few battery projects and a couple ice energy storage facilities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects
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Cheaper, more efficient and longer lasting.
Utilities are trying to find batteries that compete with pumped storage.
I am neither scientist or engineer, but another idea is storing potential energy in the form of raising an object.
Cars use each braking process, to refill the onboard battery.
Why not use surplus energy to raise physical objects, for slow-release during needed times?
A weight dropping due to gravity, could turn wheels, and generated energy for current use.
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I don't understand the difference. Both are using open air reservoirs.
(https://upfrontcom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ECE-Project.jpg)
Open pit mines, not below grade mines.
Then it is not a closed system.
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Then it is not a closed system.
It is closed from the stand point of not connected to another body of water like a river with a dam. By permitting definition it is a closed system. Toxins from the mines won't reach other bodies of water.
https://www.ferc.gov/whats-new/comm-meet/2014/061914/H-7.pdf
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I am neither scientist or engineer, but another idea is storing potential energy in the form of raising an object.
Cars use each braking process, to refill the onboard battery.
Why not use surplus energy to raise physical objects, for slow-release during needed times?
A weight dropping due to gravity, could turn wheels, and generated energy for current use.
It is being tried. This is even more terrain specific. They are claiming expected 80% efficiency.
http://www.aresnorthamerica.com/article/4875-advanced-rail-energy-storage-using-trains-to-store-power
http://fortune.com/2016/05/22/energy-storing-train-nevada/
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@truth_seeker
That is the basis of tidal power projects, the raising and lowering of the water creates electricity.
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http://www.eaglecrestenergy.com/project-description.html
Not the first time the concept has been used.
I did archaeological work in one of the valleys for this one in the late '70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7KQGIEeiJ8&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7KQGIEeiJ8&feature=youtu.be)
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It is closed from the stand point of not connected to another body of water like a river with a dam. By permitting definition it is a closed system. Toxins from the mines won't reach other bodies of water.
https://www.ferc.gov/whats-new/comm-meet/2014/061914/H-7.pdf
I can see it is closed from another body of water, but will still be open on evaporation and rainfall.
I wonder what happens if an inordinate amount of rainfall causes this 'closed' system to fill up past its capacity? No way those toxins will be allowed outside the containment area unless some provision like underground injection is incorporated.
I see a lot of discussion in the Issuing Order concerning seepage from the reservoir. If I read it correctly, it appears the entire pits will be lined to mitigate seepage? That is an undertaking in itself.
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Not the first time the concept has been used.
I did archaeological work in one of the valleys for this one in the late '70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7KQGIEeiJ8&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7KQGIEeiJ8&feature=youtu.be)
You mean besides our foremost geologist, ND news reporter and fierce defender of freedom and life, you are also an archaeologist?
@Smokin Joe
Did the archeology dream give way to the reality of making a living as a geo? Or more likely, the '79 run-up in o/g prices dangle dollar signs above your head?
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You mean besides our foremost geologist, ND news reporter and fierce defender of freedom and life, you are also an archaeologist?
@Smokin Joe
Did the archeology dream give way to the reality of making a living as a geo? Or more likely, the '79 run-up in o/g prices dangle dollar signs above your head?
I found my first arrowhead at five and grew up reading National Geographics from back into the 1800s. As a kid, I had a pretty good handle where on the farm I could find arrowheads, pottery fragments, and the like, and even found a few odds and ends dating back to the early 1700s, bottles of Civil War vintage and the like. I even got a metal detector with my haying money and told my mother I was going out to find the family treasure. (She said, "Son, you have it in your hand.") I had a lot of fun with that thing, but never found anything of note with it.
Archaeology remains an interest and something I love to do, but it was a summer job and the money wasn't the best, and besides, I was on my way to a Master's Degree in Uranium Geochemistry (or so I thought), full ride.
After a year of Grad School, my car having been hit five times--three times when parked (and finally totaled out) in eight months, my bankroll wasn't much of a roll, and I decided to go to work for a year and consider my options. I hired on with a mudlogging outfit, to start at the end of the school year, and two weeks later Three Mile Island happened. Well, that was the end of the Uranium dream, and I was already in the oil patch...I drove what was left of that car across the state (ground the treads off a set of nearly new bias ply tires doing so--the frame was bent that bad) with the side closed up with duct tape, plastic, and cardboard, and most of my stuff tucked into corners or tied to the roof.
Thank God the company had company pickups...
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Fascinating. They can pump the water uphill gradually in times of demand slack, then let it roll at peak demand. Neat idea.
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Absolutely. Some have claims of ~80% efficiency.
http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/pumped-hydroelectric-storage
Wind and Solar are not dispatchable; you have to take the power when it comes, not necessarily when it is needed. Base load power plants are most efficient fully loaded running 24/7.
Combining those with pump storage or other energy storage systems allows more peak load to be serviced on demand.
I can believe that. The average efficiency of large electrical pumps running at optimum load is about 82%. The average efficiency of a hydro turbine generator is about 95%. That gets a combined system efficiency of about 78%.
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I can believe that. The average efficiency of large electrical pumps running at optimum load is about 82%. The average efficiency of a hydro turbine generator is about 95%. That gets a combined system efficiency of about 78%.
As a comparison, any statistics on the % efficiency of say, a car battery? The amount of energy to charge, the loss during a reasonable storage time, and the resultant strength of output of energy when used?
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As a comparison, any statistics on the % efficiency of say, a car battery? The amount of energy to charge, the loss during a reasonable storage time, and the resultant strength of output of energy when used?
You might want to add in lifespan, too. That facility in Virginia has been going since the early '80s. The longest life I ever got out of a car battery was 12 years out of an Interstate, and that was exceptional (especially in this climate).
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As a comparison, any statistics on the % efficiency of say, a car battery? The amount of energy to charge, the loss during a reasonable storage time, and the resultant strength of output of energy when used?
Be sure to include chargers, inverters and any transformers used in the comparison. AC in to AC out.
I'll look later when I can.
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Thanks, I bet it is a lot less than 80%.
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As a comparison, any statistics on the % efficiency of say, a car battery? The amount of energy to charge, the loss during a reasonable storage time, and the resultant strength of output of energy when used?
About 85% is assumed for a lead-acid battery, but you cannot do very many deep discharges before you ruin it, and that efficiency is very dependent on air temperature. Also, it would take a LOT of batteries to equal the output of a moderate sized pumped hydro unit. A battery optimized for power purposes will store about 2 KWh of electricity. A moderate pumped hydro station will run about 350 MWe, probably can operate at nameplate for about 6-10 hours, call it 8 hours to anally extract a number, making the total production on a typical day about 2800 MWh. You would need 175,000 batteries to store the equivalent amount of energy and last about 300-500 cycles before being replaced, assume 400, essentially replacing every 2 years or so. Assuming $500/battery, that's $87,500,000 to be spent every two years, not counting maintenance costs. A 350 MW hydro station probably will cost $1,000,000,000 to build and will last 60 years before any major equipment has to be replaced. In that same time you would replace the batteries 30 times for a cost of $2,625,000,000, which does not include the original cost.
Also, the hydro turbine can make 60Hz AC electricity directly, the batteries will need a rectifier to convert DC to AC, which will add another efficiency penalty, causing the battery installation to be even bigger to overcome this problem. Batteries as they exist now and in the near future are not the answer, and probably never will be.
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About 85% is assumed for a lead-acid battery, but you cannot do very many deep discharges before you ruin it, and that efficiency is very dependent on air temperature. Also, it would take a LOT of batteries to equal the output of a moderate sized pumped hydro unit. A battery optimized for power purposes will store about 2 KWh of electricity. A moderate pumped hydro station will run about 350 MWe, probably can operate at nameplate for about 6-10 hours, call it 8 hours to anally extract a number, making the total production on a typical day about 2800 MWh. You would need 175,000 batteries to store the equivalent amount of energy and last about 300-500 cycles before being replaced, assume 400, essentially replacing every 2 years or so. Assuming $500/battery, that's $87,500,000 to be spent every two years, not counting maintenance costs. A 350 MW hydro station probably will cost $1,000,000,000 to build and will last 60 years before any major equipment has to be replaced. In that same time you would replace the batteries 30 times for a cost of $2,625,000,000, which does not include the original cost.
Also, the hydro turbine can make 60Hz AC electricity directly, the batteries will need a rectifier to convert DC to AC, which will add another efficiency penalty, causing the battery installation to be even bigger to overcome this problem. Batteries as they exist now and in the near future are not the answer, and probably never will be.
Thanks, was not trying to replace the suggested water impoundment with a bunch of batteries, just trying to see how efficient an expected 80% efficiency of the water scheme is to something we all use like a car battery.
Seems they are similar in efficiency, save for some of the issues related to chargers, life of battery, etc.
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Thanks, was not trying to replace the suggested water impoundment with a bunch of batteries, just trying to see how efficient an expected 80% efficiency of the water scheme is to something we all use like a car battery.
Seems they are similar in efficiency, save for some of the issues related to chargers, life of battery, etc.
Yep.... ^-^
My inner engineer just cannot let go a chance to pontificate......
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Yep.... ^-^
My inner engineer just cannot let go a chance to pontificate......
No, you did quite well revealing just how impressive the amount of stored energy exists in this proposed setup.
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As a comparison, any statistics on the % efficiency of say, a car battery? The amount of energy to charge, the loss during a reasonable storage time, and the resultant strength of output of energy when used?
This is a relatively new utility sized energy storage system using batteries. It is higher than I expected, but not high enough to be economic.
The economics of battery participation in energy markets are driven by the differentials between electricity prices at which the battery is charged versus those at which the battery is discharged. The project observed that these price differentials were not large enough on a consistent basis to offset the inherent round trip efficiency of the BESSs, which averaged about 75 percent.
https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/about-pge/environment/what-we-are-doing/electric-program-investment-charge/PGE-EPIC-Project-1.01.pdf
Page 2
BESSs = Battery Energy Storage Systems
PG&E started with two of these BESSs.
Vaca-Dixon BESS = 2 MW / 14 MWh NAS Battery
Yerba Buena BESS = 4 MW / 28 MWh NAS Battery
A lot of times they reached 80% efficiency. But storage time can have a great impact on that.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/research/notices/2014-12-01_workshop/presentations/Jon_Eric_Thalman_Robert_Shainker_Pacific_Gas__and__Electric_and_EPRI.pdf