The Briefing Room
General Category => Elections 2020 => Topic started by: Hoodat on March 10, 2020, 06:33:30 pm
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Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
David Harsanyi | March 10, 2020 12:28 PM
After being hammered for his long history of defending Communists — specifically for praising Cuba’s “literacy programs†— Democratic Party presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders is now employing the other age-old, and equally deceptive, defense of socialism.
At a Fox News Town Hall on Monday, Bernie was asked by a Russian immigrant and student from the University of Michigan: Could Sanders assure her that his brand of “democratic socialism†wouldn’t cause the same kind of harm that socialism always causes?
“What happened and existed in the Soviet Union was not socialism. It was authoritarian Communism,†Bernie replied, inducing a bunch of his historically illiterate fans to applaud.
“And Communism,†Bernie goes on, “whether in Cuba, whether in the Soviet Union or whether in other countries was marked by totalitarianism, was marked by throwing millions of people into the Gulag.â€
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bernie-real-socialism-has-never-been-tried/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bernie-real-socialism-has-never-been-tried/)
It threw millions into the Gulag (and even more millions into their graves) because "real socialism" does not tolerate human nature.
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Socialism and communism go hand in hand. Sanders out right lies to the young people of America who are too stupid to know any better. They do not read. No reading, no understanding of history, and the events of the past.
Sanders should be considered an insane old fool, which is exactly what he is. Commune bum to on the government dole for his whole life. He has done nothing but fill his pockets with gold, just like everyone else in Congress.
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The “ it didn’t work because the wrong people were running it†line
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Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIBdVkJ9L-k&t=7s#)
This time for sure!
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Yeah, socialism would be absolutely wonderful, if only it was implemented correctly.
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When pigs fly. Power is corrupting, and with socialism, you have power vested with very few people, and the whole system is designed to focus on non productive environments, which destroys everything. Socialism is as anti American as communism. There is no difference. It would destroy this country's work ethic. No mystery why the young want it, they could not be more lazy.
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Funny thing about human nature. People seem to have a natural aversion to being treated like prisoners or slaves. Go figure.
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What Comrade Bernie conveniently overlooks is that socialism i.e. the forced "equalization" of everybody is authoritarianism. It is trying to pound the square peg of authoritarianism into the round hole of reality/human nature...it just doesn't fit.
What you will have is a tiny group of people at the top running things getting fat and rich like the Chavezes and the Castros and the Maos living like kings while the common people do without.
It would be great, though, to see all the Silicon Valley millionaires and billionaires who are pro-Bernie if Bernie wins.
The look on their faces when the mob comes around to their mansions to confiscate their homes, cars, boats, planes, etc. would be priceless.
"But we voted for Bernie to help the poor and oppressed" they'll wail as the mob sends hundreds of filthy, diseased, crazy homeless into their kingly abodes and relieves them of their "unnecessary"wealthy possessions.
EVERYBODY OWNS EVERYTHING will be the new motto of The Socialist States Of America.
"You didn't build that thing, so it's not yours...it's everybodys."
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"No true Scotsman" fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)
No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.
As an example, Bernie says, "Socialism is better than capitalism!" When someone points out a number of examples where socialism lead to bad outcomes (i.e., Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela...), Bernie responds, "But that wasn't real Socialism!"
*****rollingeyes*****
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Has anyone compiled a list of statements of Bernie's supposedly "long history of condemning authoritarian regimes?"
I couldn't find a thing.
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Funny thing about human nature. People seem to have a natural aversion to being treated like prisoners or slaves. Go figure.
That includes prisoners and slaves themselves
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Where Bernie is wrong: Socialism, of a necessity, is always a whistle stop on the road to tyranny. By it's nature it can be nothing else.
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Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
By David Harsanyi
March 10, 2020 12:28 PM
After being hammered for his long history of defending Communists — specifically for praising Cuba’s “literacy programs†— Democratic Party presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders is now employing the other age-old, and equally deceptive, defense of socialism.
At a Fox News Town Hall on Monday, Bernie was asked by a Russian immigrant and student from the University of Michigan: Could Sanders assure her that his brand of “democratic socialism†wouldn’t cause the same kind of harm that socialism always causes?
“What happened and existed in the Soviet Union was not socialism. It was authoritarian Communism,†Bernie replied, inducing a bunch of his historically illiterate fans to applaud.
“And Communism,†Bernie goes on, “whether in Cuba, whether in the Soviet Union or whether in other countries was marked by totalitarianism, was marked by throwing millions of people into the Gulag.â€
The fact that there were varying degrees of socialist disasters is, of course, inarguable. Israel’s early socialistic experiment merely kept many people poor, while Russia’s socialism kept many people starving. Neither worked.
But leftists like Bernie like to act as if socialist ideology is incompatible with totalitarianism, when the opposite is true. The nationalization of industry and dispensing with property rights — necessary for any genuine socialism to occur — can’t be instituted without coercion and a centralized authoritarian effort. And even if the effort to redistribute property is first supported by the majority, as soon the state comes for your stuff — and it always does — the “democratic†part of the equation starts to dissipate.
more
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bernie-real-socialism-has-never-been-tried/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/bernie-real-socialism-has-never-been-tried/)
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All those poor people that suffered in those countries that skimped and only bought the generic brand of socialism, if only their leaders had sprung for name brand full featured socialism they would have had to starve and suffer. Funny in all the time and places that tried socialism no one thought to try 'Real Socialism'............imagine.
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If you had to choose between president Biden and president Sanders which would it be?
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If you had to choose between president Biden and president Sanders which would it be?
Neither.
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Has anyone compiled a list of statements of Bernie's supposedly "long history of condemning authoritarian regimes?"
I couldn't find a thing.
Your problem is, you don't define "authoritarian" the same way the Bern Bros do. Ronald Reagan, both Bushes and Donald Trump are "authoritarians," and he condemns them every time he takes a breath.
The Castro Bros were/are not authoritarians, they are agrarians. Silly.
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Neither. Not. Nope. No can do.
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Neither.
You're not being a good sport.
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You're not being a good sport.
Yeah, I get that a lot.
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Yeah, I get that a lot.
I just want you to admit that Bernie is a better human being than that corporatist trash candidate Joe Biden, even if his views are flawed.
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I just want you to admit that Bernie is a better human being than that corporatist trash candidate Joe Biden, even if his views are flawed.
That ain't likely, as I don't believe either one is a 'better' hoomin bean.
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If you had to choose between president Biden and president Sanders which would it be?
That's a choice only for Democrats.
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I just want you to admit that Bernie is a better human being than that corporatist trash candidate Joe Biden, even if his views are flawed.
That's how you get somebody to tell you to go to Hell. They're both pieces of shit, one's cow shit, the other is horse shit. It's still all shit no matter how much you try to polish it. You're looking for a smackdown in record time, Dex.
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That's how you get somebody to tell you to go to Hell. They're both pieces of shit, one's cow shit, the other is horse shit. It's still all shit no matter how much you try to polish it. You're looking for a smackdown in record time, Dex.
:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe. To me that difference matters. You know I lean further left than anybody else on this forum, yet you tolerate me and seem to accept that I'm not human filth. I like to think I have earned a little bit of your respect even if you disagree with a lot of my opinions. Can the same not be true of Bernie?
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods.
Rose colored glasses for Bernie Three-Houses ... :whistle:
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If you had to choose between president Biden and president Sanders which would it be?
I think you left out answer "C". Neither of the above.
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Just the Communist version of socialism brought the slaughter of something like 100M innocent human beings. That is what The Bern is promising that he he do "right". I have/had (unsure of the proper verb tense) great uncles that I never met, courtesy of Joseph Dzhugashvili; my Grandmother never learned what happened to her brothers. I cannot be sold on socialism, and The Bern is not a good human being.
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Rose colored glasses for Bernie Three-Houses ... :whistle:
Bernie has been in politics for like 35 years and he and his wife combined are worth a few million dollars. Who else has been in politics for nearly that long and isn't worth a lot more just on their own? He's a career senator that's making his second presidential run. He has a very reasonable amount of wealth.
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Why Is Kim Jong-un So Fat? Ask a Democratic Socialist
Kit Bobko
Aug 6, 2018 Uncle Bernie and socialist darling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have seized the imagination of the American Left and the so-called Trump Resistance with their ideas about universal healthcare, guaranteed government jobs, free college, and open borders. Their promises of sunny socialist plenty are becoming increasingly mainstream among American Democrats who believe they represent the best chance to unhorse Donald Trump and retake Congress this fall.
I have a question for these Democratic Socialists:
Why is Kim Jong-un so fat? ...
Uncle Bernie and his supporters might respond to news of the turophilic Mr. Kim by saying he is both a bad example and a bad guy, and by allowing this to occur demonstrates his country isn’t a true socialist state. They might even go further and say that socialism itself isn’t inherently bad but the people who’ve tried to implement are. ...
We’d put the right people in charge and do it the right way, the American Democratic Socialists would say. ...
Read the rest of the article (https://medium.com/@kit.bobko/why-is-kim-jong-un-so-fat-5e1d545b698b)
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Your problem is, you don't define "authoritarian" the same way the Bern Bros do. Ronald Reagan, both Bushes and Donald Trump are "authoritarians," and he condemns them every time he takes a breath.
The Castro Bros were/are not authoritarians, they are agrarians. Silly.
:silly:
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe. To me that difference matters. You know I lean further left than anybody else on this forum, yet you tolerate me and seem to accept that I'm not human filth. I like to think I have earned a little bit of your respect even if you disagree with a lot of my opinions. Can the same not be true of Bernie?
Do you know a single thing about Bernie, @Dexter ?
Sounds like maybe no.......
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Do you know a single thing about Bernie, @Dexter ?
Sounds like maybe no.......
I know his consistency on the issues is rivaled only by the likes of Ron Paul, which leads me to believe he has real passion for what he says and isn't just saying whatever he can to get votes. That alone separates him from the majority of politicians.
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe. To me that difference matters. You know I lean further left than anybody else on this forum, yet you tolerate me and seem to accept that I'm not human filth. I like to think I have earned a little bit of your respect even if you disagree with a lot of my opinions. Can the same not be true of Bernie?
You don't seem like filth to me, just maybe a little misguided. Bernie Sanders, however, I can't stand. He's a parasite that never held down a job until he hopped on the government gravy train when he got elected Mayor of Burlington. He's been a shiftless leach ever since, known for exactly three bills introduced as a Senator, two of them for renaming post offices. He's the epitome of a sinecure-sucking pol. He lives the very worst instincts of the Left. He believes his own lectures and that I cannot abide.
And don't get me started on how he treated his first wife (not the one he Honeymooned in Moscow with).
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I know his consistency on the issues is rivaled only by the likes of Ron Paul, which leads me to believe he has real passion for what he says and isn't just saying whatever he can to get votes. That alone separates him from the majority of politicians.
Either that or he's a lifelong grifter who's a Soviet style Communist and who has decided to get rich on his schtick of taking advantage of people while he's loafing....
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Bernie has been in politics for like 35 years and he and his wife combined are worth a few million dollars. Who else has been in politics for nearly that long and isn't worth a lot more just on their own? He's a career senator that's making his second presidential run. He has a very reasonable amount of wealth.
If you can look at Bernie's three mansions and still think he's only worth a million dollars, you have a serious misunderstanding of what the phrase "Net Worth" means.
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You don't seem like filth to me, just maybe a little misguided. Bernie Sanders, however, I can't stand. He's a parasite that never held down a job until he hopped on the government gravy train when he got elected Mayor of Burlington. He's been a shiftless leach ever since, known for exactly three bills introduced as a Senator, two of them for renaming post offices. He's the epitome of a sinecure-sucking pol. He lives the very worst instincts of the Left. He believes his own lectures and that I cannot abide.
And don't get me started on how he treated his first wife (not the one he Honeymooned in Moscow with).
He probably would have gotten a lot more done in the senate if he hadn't spent the majority of his career fighting alone.
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If you can look at Bernie's three mansions and still think he's only worth a million dollars, you have a serious misunderstanding of what the phrase "Net Worth" means.
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/bernie6.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=782&h=517)
Does this look like a mansion to you?
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@Dexter
Bernie is a bum who never worked until he figured out, at the tender age of forty-one, to suck off the government. He pays his corrupt wife, who should be in prison for her fraud that destroyed the college she ran, and his step-kids from his campaign funds. He took his staff on 3 private jets for a ten minute jaunt from one campaign stop to another while he wants the rest of us to walk. Sure, he wants to help people- to learn to read the Communist Manifesto.
Owner of three homes, millionaire, hypocrite with no experience in anything in the real world. He's a disgusting loser that only the most ignorant and lazy follow.
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I know his consistency on the issues is rivaled only by the likes of Ron Paul, which leads me to believe he has real passion for what he says and isn't just saying whatever he can to get votes. That alone separates him from the majority of politicians.
@Dexter
Don't mention Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders in the same sentence. :nono:
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(https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/6/660868m2_ts.jpg)
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(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/bernie6.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=782&h=517)
Does this look like a mansion to you?
Blame Hitlery for cheaping out on his bribe.
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He probably would have gotten a lot more done in the senate if he hadn't spent the majority of his career fighting alone.
Thank God he's the only "out" communist in the Senate.
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Bernie has been in politics for like 35 years and he and his wife combined are worth a few million dollars. Who else has been in politics for nearly that long and isn't worth a lot more just on their own? He's a career senator that's making his second presidential run. He has a very reasonable amount of wealth.
His entire shtick is built on unicorn farts and patchouli dreams. You can't afford Bernie Sanders any more than you can afford AOC and her ridiculous green agenda (green is the new red).
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(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/bernie6.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=782&h=517)
Does this look like a mansion to you?
I knew you would pick the "lake house." Here's the one in Burlington.
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/02/640/320/Sanders-Vermont-House.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Tell me...have you ever purchased a house in a city? If not, that would explain why you would think this one is a measly couple hundred thou.
Mrs. Liberty and I shopped for two years before we found a house like that for < $1M.
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(https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/6/660868m2_ts.jpg)
It's what he does. rrthree
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe. To me that difference matters. You know I lean further left than anybody else on this forum, yet you tolerate me and seem to accept that I'm not human filth. I like to think I have earned a little bit of your respect even if you disagree with a lot of my opinions. Can the same not be true of Bernie?
Let me put it this way, @Dexter.
A man who is after money is generally predictable. His god is in the open, he will do anything for it.
But more evil has been done in the name of helping someone, or imposing restrictions on people for "their own good", and such types are insatiable, ever driven by the need to do more "good", and morally at home with whatever evil ensues because it was imposed with good intent. With that sort, our Rights are readily forfeit in the cause of "the common good".
If I had to choose between the two, I'd take Biden, because he is in it for the money, primarily, and there is a chance he'd leave some of my Rights alone.
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I wonder if Bernie was on honeymoon in Moscow, while President Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear Down This Wall?"
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I knew you would pick the "lake house." Here's the one in Burlington.
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/02/640/320/Sanders-Vermont-House.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
Tell me...have you ever purchased a house in a city? If not, that would explain why you would think this one is a measly couple hundred thou.
Mrs. Liberty and I shopped for two years before we found a house like that for < $1M.
Look up his net worth and compare it to anybody else in the senate that has been there for more than a handful of years. Again, he has been a senator for a very long time, and has been in politics for more than three decades. He's also had two strong runs for president now. His wealth is actually surprisingly low considering all of that.
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I wonder if Bernie was on honeymoon in Moscow, while President Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear Down This Wall?"
He could have been, it was 1988.
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Look up his net worth and compare it to anybody else in the senate that has been there for more than a handful of years. Again, he has been a senator for a very long time, and has been in politics for more than three decades. He's also had two strong runs for president now. His wealth is actually surprisingly low considering all of that.
Yeah, but he's a Socialist, which usually implies he isn't all that good at handling money, or he'd be playing on the Capitalist team.
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If you had to choose between president Biden and president Sanders which would it be?
If those are my only two choices and I had to pick, probably Biden. Biden has his issues but Sander’s dedication to his ideology is dangerous
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He could have been, it was 1988.
Even if the dates were off, the meaning rings true.
While Bernie was taking in the joys of his beloved USSR, East Germans were trapped behind the Berlin Wall. The economic and personal freedoms of the two Germany's were far different.
You cannot visit Moscow in 1988, run for Pres. of the USA as a "democrat socialist," , and not have to answer for the millions of dead subject under communism.
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Socialism has never been tried in this country because we ARE a REPUBLIC! No room for socialism. The closest thing to socialism in this country is leftist liberalism. Liberalism didn't work in the past, won't work now and sure as heck won't work in the future!
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I just want you to admit that Bernie is a better human being than that corporatist trash candidate Joe Biden, even if his views are flawed.
I could not disagree more. Joe Biden is in politics solely for his own enrichment. He has assumed a position that he is able to hold by exercising minimal responsibility. He puts his own self-serving interest ahead of anything else and is not willing to jeopardize that.
Contrast that with Bernie Sanders who wishes to impose a tried and tested philosophy that in the last century has resulted in the deaths of over 100 million people, a philosophy that guarantees poverty and destroys the human spirit. Bernie Sanders represents the greatest evil ever perpetrated on man. And the fact that he still desires this at this late stage of his life with so much proof of its effects marking history only makes that evil more egregious.
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You don't seem like filth to me, just maybe a little misguided. Bernie Sanders, however, I can't stand. He's a parasite that never held down a job until he hopped on the government gravy train when he got elected Mayor of Burlington. He's been a shiftless leach ever since, known for exactly three bills introduced as a Senator, two of them for renaming post offices. He's the epitome of a sinecure-sucking pol. He lives the very worst instincts of the Left. He believes his own lectures and that I cannot abide.
And don't get me started on how he treated his first wife (not the one he Honeymooned in Moscow with).
:yowsa: pointing-up
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods.
Bernie doesn't want to help people. He wants to control them.
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe. To me that difference matters. You know I lean further left than anybody else on this forum, yet you tolerate me and seem to accept that I'm not human filth. I like to think I have earned a little bit of your respect even if you disagree with a lot of my opinions. Can the same not be true of Bernie?
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster
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We’d put the right people in charge and do it the right way, the American Democratic Socialists would say. ...
As did Germany's Anton Drexler.
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"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster
Yep. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Or, as Mr. Carlson said to Les Nessman , "I thought turkeys could fly!"
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Does this look like a mansion to you?
From the air, it looks like a property that 99.9% of Americans couldn't afford.
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/berniehome.jpg)
He had to have put down over half a mil on it, not that it matters. I really don't give a damn how much money Bernie Sanders makes. Yet he seems to intimately care about how much money I make. Go figure.
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The earliest cultures of the Fertile Crescent had a strong communal impulse which was voluntary, as it was often necessary for their survival. These included Semites;the Akkadians, Canaanites, Hebrews, Phoenicians, among several tribes.
Many thousands of years later, the French Enlightenment, buttressed by the birth of Capitalism,
insisted that material betterment was Man's highest calling. Over time as wealth expanded
a collective impulse was born which was non-voluntary and later labeled Marxism and/or Socialism. Reflect a moment:
Early Man had a strong spiritual sense that embraced the communal, if it was voluntary.
Later Man replaced that sense w/materialism and now embraces non-voluntary collectivism.
Those who insist that changing political parties will alter this fundamental clash of values,
need a brain transplant.
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Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
Wasn't it Comrade Lenin who proclaimed that the goal of "socialism" was communism...?
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I wonder if Bernie was on honeymoon in Moscow, while President Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear Down This Wall?"
It was one year later. Reagan's speech was in June '87. Sanders' honeymoon was in June '88.
Here's a video of him sitting around shirtless drinking and singing with some real live Soviets.
https://twitter.com/m_mendozaferrer/status/1089879769477459975
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I know his consistency on the issues is rivaled only by the likes of Ron Paul, which leads me to believe he has real passion for what he says and isn't just saying whatever he can to get votes. That alone separates him from the majority of politicians.
Comparing one crazy old White man to another Crazy old White man leaves you with just crazy. Anyone that believes a socialist/communist (two sides of the same coin) wants to genuinely help people is really fundamentally missing the historical realities of socialism/communism which has only created death and misery anywhere it has been implemented.
Bernie can take his benevolence to Venezuela and show them how to do it right first before he tries to sink our Republic.
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And it never will because it is contrary to human nature.
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:shrug:
I think Bernie genuinely wants to help people even if he isn't using the right methods. I think Joe is garbage that doesn't care about anything but his next bribe.
@Dexter
I agree. One is a well-meaning starry-eyed fool,and the other is nothing more than a retarded criminal.
The rational choice for President is "neither of the above".
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@Dexter
I agree. One is a well-meaning starry-eyed fool,and the other is nothing more than a retarded criminal.
The rational choice for President is "neither of the above".
I'm glad that you can at least agree that he's well-meaning. Biden is not, and to me that matters. I think if we had to choose one Bernie would be better. He's not going to usher in socialism; that'll never happen, largely because it's ultimately impractical and impossible. He'd more likely go in there and start running his mouth about the special interests that run politics and prevent anything real from happening.
Are the Scandinavian countries socialist? I'm not saying we could successfully emulate everything they do, but really it is their way of doing things that Bernie has been advocating for for more than 30 years now. I can go find the speeches if anybody doesn't think so. I think if you break it down the Scandinavian countries are not actually socialist. They are capitalist nations with large social safety nets. If he wanted to work on his image he could call himself a Nordic capitalist instead, and I think it wouldn't be inaccurate.
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I think if we had to choose one Bernie would be better.
Cannabis and computer posting are a tricky combination.
Drop the bong, and re-think what you have said.
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Cannabis and computer posting are a tricky combination.
Drop the bong, and re-think what you have said.
I trust honest and well-meaning people more than bought and paid for snakes, even if their views are misguided. If forced to choose I'd take a genuine and passionate Sanders over Scumbag Joe any day. I think Bernie is to the left what Trump is to the right, a populist that truly embodies the views of his respective crowd. That's why both of those candidates can rally crowds that number in the 10s of thousands. I'd rather see a real conversation between two candidates that actually represent the people that vote for them. That's how it should be, rather than the norm of pulling the lever for the candidate that makes you slightly less sick to your stomach.
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I trust honest and well-meaning people more than bought and paid for snakes, even if their views are misguided. If forced to choose I'd take a genuine and passionate Sanders over Scumbag Joe any day. I think Bernie is to the left what Trump is to the right, a populist that truly embodies the views of his respective crowd. That's why both of those candidates can rally crowds that number in the 10s of thousands. I'd rather see a real conversation between two candidates that actually represent the people that vote for them. That's how it should be, rather than the norm of pulling the lever for the candidate that makes you slightly less sick to your stomach.
Commie Bernie may be less intellectually dishonest, but it still doesn't mask he is a communist. You don't let anyone within a 100 miles of the WH with those credentials. Putting him there, pretty much sticks a finger in the eye of anyone or anyone's family who gave during the cold war. Even feigned praise for this son of a bitch is uncalled for.
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Commie Bernie may be less intellectually dishonest, but it still doesn't mask he is a communist. You don't let anyone within a 100 miles of the WH with those credentials. Putting him there, pretty much sticks a finger in the eye of anyone or anyone's family who gave during the cold war. Even feigned praise for this son of a bitch is uncalled for.
Are the Scandinavian countries communist?
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Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCg0WPRB-yg#)
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Are the Scandinavian countries communist?
I wish folks would quit hiding behind the Nordic countries as some sort of socialist nirvana.
First of all, they are tiny by comparison, with an homogeneous population.
Second of all, they have no defense budget to worry about, being under the jurisdiction of NATO countries... Namely US.
And even without a direct cost for defense, they are not doing very well, as their high cost socialist programs have inflated their economy tremendously.
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I wish folks would quit hiding behind the Nordic countries as some sort of socialist nirvana.
First of all, they are tiny by comparison, with an homogeneous population.
Second of all, they have no defense budget to worry about, being under the jurisdiction of NATO countries... Namely US.
And even without a direct cost for defense, they are not doing very well, as their high cost socialist programs have inflated their economy tremendously.
Refused to argue the point on silly semantics. The really only big difference between communism, and socialism is a totalitarian government. Secretly ask any socialistic head of state, and they would confide they'd prefer it that way.
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Refused to argue the point on silly semantics. The really only big difference between communism, and socialism is a totalitarian government. Secretly ask any socialistic head of state, and they would confide they'd prefer it that way.
It is inevitable. The government big enough to give you all that free stuff is big enough to rule you - And ultimately, rule you they will. It is the nature of the beast.
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I wish folks would quit hiding behind the Nordic countries as some sort of socialist nirvana.
First of all, they are tiny by comparison, with an homogeneous population.
Second of all, they have no defense budget to worry about, being under the jurisdiction of NATO countries... Namely US.
And even without a direct cost for defense, they are not doing very well, as their high cost socialist programs have inflated their economy tremendously.
That’s why they’re scaling back many of their generous welfare programs
Sweden tried the Bernie model and it failed. The Scandinavian countries are no longer socialist but theybdo have very large welfare programs that would bankrupt this country and probably not be embraced by Americans
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It is inevitable. The government big enough to give you all that free stuff is big enough to rule you - And ultimately, rule you they will. It is the nature of the beast.
I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down. It might not be a necessity until after all of us are gone, but given enough time there simply won't be enough jobs left. Robots will be driving our cars, doing our surgeries, teaching our children and yes, even repairing the other robots. We're on a collision course with a brick wall and one day society will have to change its course or crash.
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That’s why they’re scaling back many of their generous welfare programs
Sweden tried the Bernie model and it failed. The Scandinavian countries are no longer socialist but theybdo have very large welfare programs that would bankrupt this country and probably not be embraced by Americans
The Scandinavians have a different mindset. They may have to make adjustments to their models because of costs, but the objective will always be to help and elevate their citizenry as much as possible.
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silly semantics.
Semantics matter when you're calling somebody something they're not.
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I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down. It might not be a necessity until after all of us are gone, but given enough time there simply won't be enough jobs left. Robots will be driving our cars, doing our surgeries, teaching our children and yes, even repairing the other robots. We're on a collision course with a brick wall and one day society have to change its course or crash.
I've been hearing about technology destroying human employment for 50 years now. Your understanding of our species' ability to adapt is pretty thin. As long as there is money to be made, and the human characteristic of innovation..... Your argument is laughable.
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I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down. It might not be a necessity until after all of us are gone, but given enough time there simply won't be enough jobs left. Robots will be driving our cars, doing our surgeries, teaching our children and yes, even repairing the other robots. We're on a collision course with a brick wall and one day society have to change its course or crash.
Automation has increased productivity for many decades without increasing the overall unemployment. You sound like a buggy-whip maker complaining about the automobile. Jobs will change, for certain.
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Automation has increased productivity for many decades without increasing the overall unemployment. You sound like a buggy-whip maker complaining about the automobile. Jobs will change, for certain.
It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
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That’s why they’re scaling back many of their generous welfare programs
Sweden tried the Bernie model and it failed. The Scandinavian countries are no longer socialist but theybdo have very large welfare programs that would bankrupt this country and probably not be embraced by Americans
That's exactly right. Everyone always speaks with glowing terms about their health system, but no one talks about the cost of goods, inflated by taxes. Their system is horribly broken, and as you said, they are being forced to back away from their system.
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I've been hearing about technology destroying human employment for 50 years now. Your understanding of our species' ability to adapt is pretty thin. As long as there is money to be made, and the human characteristic of innovation..... Your argument is laughable.
We're incredible at adapting. That's why when the time comes we will make the obvious choice, which is to help people so society doesn't collapse.
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I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down. It might not be a necessity until after all of us are gone, but given enough time there simply won't be enough jobs left. Robots will be driving our cars, doing our surgeries, teaching our children and yes, even repairing the other robots. We're on a collision course with a brick wall and one day society have to change its course or crash.
Except you are stone dead wrong. There has never been a benevolent government in all of history. That is a notion you had best disabuse yourself of post haste. It is clouding your judgement.
And the idea that government is the solution to anything is always wrong.
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It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
LOL, after 30 more years of life experience, you will be laughing as well.
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Except you are stone dead wrong. There has never been a benevolent government in all of history. That is a notion you had best disabuse yourself of post haste. It is clouding your judgement.
And the idea that government is the solution to anything is always wrong.
I wouldn't be surprised if AI runs the government someday too. It'd probably be a lot better that way. I don't think people can make a perfect government. I just think relying on government in the centuries to come isn't going to be optional whether we like it or not.
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LOL, after 30 more years of life experience, you will be laughing as well.
Is it possible that you're wrong?
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We're incredible at adapting. That's why when the time comes we will make the obvious choice, which is to help people so society doesn't collapse.
Why we are incredible at adapting is because we are free. When we are no longer free, we will no longer adapt. Even now it is noticeable.
And what will make society collapse is the government y'all deserve.
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It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
@Dexter
We are decades away, or longer, from real Artificial intelligence, which is defined as the ability to reason, learn and adapt.
We are using computers which react to sensors to follow the lines in the road, for example, that is not AI...
Any true AI system will be limited by the programmers knowledge and personal biases.
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I wouldn't be surprised if AI runs the government someday too. It'd probably be a lot better that way. I don't think people can make a perfect government. I just think relying on government in the centuries to come isn't going to be optional whether we like it or not.
I think you are completely wrong. I think your faith in AI is dangerously misplaced.
I think your faith in government is likewise dangerously misplaced.
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We are decades away, or longer, from real Artificial intelligence
You're right. That's why I said it might not be until after we're all gone. The writing is on the wall though; it's only a matter of time.
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Are the Scandinavian countries communist?
No. Is Bernie Sanders a communist? Yes.
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You're right. That's why I said it might not be until after we're all gone. The writing is on the wall though; it's only a matter of time.
Nah. I think you've been watching to much star trek.
You code, right? If you do, you should know better.
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No. Is Bernie Sanders a communist? Yes.
What you've suggested is illogical. Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?
SPOILER: You can't, because there isn't a single thing. If they're not communist then neither is Bernie.
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I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later.
How do you expect an entity that creates zero wealth to be capable of helping everybody?
Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down.
Automation is also saving and creating jobs. It is responsible for a sizeable increase in per capita GDP and a higher standard of living across the board.
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Is it possible that you're wrong?
Do you understand the definition of insanity?
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You code, right?
Something like that.
I think in the future computer language will become so complex that only AI is capable of navigating it.
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Something like that.
I think in the future computer language will become so complex that only AI is capable of navigating it.
That, at this time, is an absurdity.
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How do you expect an entity that creates zero wealth to be capable of helping everybody?
I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency. Maybe Roamer is right, and I'm just watching too much Star Trek. It's interesting how often science fiction becomes science reality though.
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I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency. Maybe Roamer is right, and I'm just watching too much Star Trek. It's interesting how often science fiction becomes science reality though.
...Written of course in the fevered dreams of hollywood socialists...
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at this time
At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is? Somebody 500 years from now would find it even more challenging to explain their everyday technology to us.
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At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is?
It will all come crashing down long before then.
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What you've suggested is illogical. Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?
SPOILER: You can't, because there isn't a single thing. If they're not communist then neither is Bernie.
You need to really look at Bernie Sander’s history. He has a history of advocating nationalization and while he was praising communist dictators back in the 80s, he also praised the fact that they had food lines. What Bernie Sanders desires is more in line with what nations like Greece had before their system collapsed. His Medicare for All is more generous than even the Scandinavian countries he loves to mention have. That’s a fast track to bankrupting the healthcare system alone to say nothing of the economy at large
I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “freeâ€
Your “spoiler†is basically an indication to others that you will not hear anything that’s negative regarding Mr. Sanders regardless if it is true
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You need to really look at Bernie Sander’s history. He has a history of advocating nationalization and while he was praising communist dictators back in the 80s, he also praised the fact that they had food lines. What Bernie Sanders desires is more in line with what nations like Greece had before their system collapsed. His Medicare for All is more generous than even the Scandinavian countries he loves to mention have. That’s a fast track to bankrupting the healthcare system alone to say nothing of the economy at large
I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “freeâ€
Your “spoiler†is basically an indication to others that you will not hear anything that’s negative regarding Mr. Sanders regardless if it is true
I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.
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I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “freeâ€
Yes. Until he's asked how he is going to pay for it. Then the answers are few and far between.
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It will all come crashing down long before then.
Ye of little faith...
I think humanity has only begun scratching at the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.
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LOL, after 30 more years of life experience, you will be laughing as well.
Youthful idealism. It’s also an open window into how separate the left is from real economics
He states government will have to help everybody because they’ll be no jobs for people because of automation. Although not true, if nobody is working where will the government get the money to “help†people?
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What you've suggested is illogical.
Nonsense. Sanders has espoused communist ideals his entire political career, and to this day heaps praise on communist leaders.
Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?
No college debt, elimination of private health insurance, federally mandated minimum wage, capping bank assets, banning assault weapons, guaranteed basic income, etc.
SPOILER: You can't, because there isn't a single thing.
Spoiler - you should do some actual investigating yourself instead of parroting bullshit you read on DU.
If they're not communist then neither is Bernie.
You also need to take a logic course.
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I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency.
That doesn't address the question. Currency was never mentioned. Again, how do you expect an entity that creates zero wealth to be capable of helping everybody?
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Ye of little faith...
I think humanity has only begun scratching at the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.
You are all over the map
You post that animation will take away all jobs and turn mankind into nothing more than government dependent subjects
And then you tell us how much of the human drive will bring about advancement
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Ye of little faith...
I think humanity has only begun scratching the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.
yup. too much star trek.
Look... Rule number one: Simple systems are durable. Complexity introduces/increases failure.
As we near the horizon line you dream of, we are also nearing the point of non-recovery. When the system crashes (as history attests it will), with all knowledge converted to electronic media, without a means of reading that knowedge it will be lost... And when it crashes, the people by and large are too far away from the land to survive... Similar to the fall of Rome producing the dark ages...
The chances are greater in a couple hundred years, that a thumb drive will be hung around the neck of a native by a chunk of rawhide as a magic totem than the realization of your grand vision.
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Nonsense. Sanders has espoused communist ideals his entire political career, and to this day heaps praise on communist leaders.
No college debt, elimination of private health insurance, federally mandated minimum wage, capping bank assets, banning assault weapons, guaranteed basic income, etc.
Spoiler - you should do some actual investigating yourself instead of parroting bullshit you read on DU.
You also need to take a logic course.
It’s been my experience that when someone asked for information and then tells you “spoiler. you can’t†it means that they will probably not listen to anything that’s factual
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It’s been my experience that when someone asked for information and then tells you “spoiler. you can’t†it means that they will probably not listen to anything that’s factual
I'm just sick and tired of the lie that Sanders advocates what they have in Scandinavia. He doesn't. Instead, he advocates what the Bolsheviks and the NSDAP advocated in their early years.
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No college debt
Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?
elimination of private health insurance
He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.
federally mandated minimum wage
They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.
capping bank assets
His position on the banks is one of the things I agree with the most. Our banking system is a mess, and the Fed needs to be audited and constantly scrutinized.
banning assault weapons
Guns is where I disagree with Bernie the most. That being said the Scandinavian nations have a lot of gun regulation and Bernie is actually not as much of a gun grabber as most on the left.
guaranteed basic income, etc.
I thought that was more Yang's thing.
Anyway, nothing you've described makes Bernie a communist. For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.
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He doesn't.
Somebody should tell him that. For more than 30 years he has been saying we should follow their example to the best of our ability.
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Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?
It's expensive because government subsidy drives up the price. Get rid of government involvement, and prices will go down. And Bernie has said repeatedly that he wants to eliminate college debt. Contrast that with Sweden:
Sweden vs. the U.S.
Of course, the average U.S. student carries about 30% more in debt, at $24,800. But new Swedish graduates have the highest debt-to-income ratios of any group of students in the developed world, at about 80%. In the U.S., the average is closer to 60%. Why is this the case?
(https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment/free-college-in-sweden-high-student-debt/)
He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.
This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.
They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.
Nope. Unlike Scandinavia, Bernie Sanders favors government setting a minimum wage.
His position on the banks is one of the things I agree with the most. Our banking system is a mess, and the Fed needs to be audited and constantly scrutinized.
You may agree with it, but Scandinavian countries do not.
Guns is where I disagree with Bernie the most. That being said the Scandinavian nations have a lot of gun regulation and Bernie is actually not as much of a gun grabber as most on the left.
Again, Sanders wants to ban "assault weapons". Contrast that with Sweden where fully automatic weapons are legal.
For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.
But that's not what you asked. Here was the question I responded to:
Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?
Bernie a communist. For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.
See: Elimination of private insurance, elimination of tuition lenders, takeover of energy industry, etc.
So the question now is: Are you really this ignorant of what Bernie Sanders stands for? Or do you really know but are lying about it.
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Somebody should tell him that. For more than 30 years he has been saying we should follow their example to the best of our ability.
Are you really surprised that a communist lied about what he wants to do? Again, I strongly recommend you do some research (as I have done over the last 30 minutes or so) to compare his actual positions with what Scandinavia does, instead of parroting tired discredited bullshit you read at DU. Think, man. Use your brain. The record could not be more clear. I have given you numerous examples already. Yet here you are insisting that Bernie Sanders has to be right while the facts are wrong, simply because you feel it.
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I'm glad that you can at least agree that he's well-meaning.
@Dexter
Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot,Castro,and every other monster was also "well-meaning". In their own minds they were just forcing people to do what was best for them and best for their nations.
Biden is not, and to me that matters. I think if we had to choose one Bernie would be better.
I will take a selfish,self-serving crook over a "Crusader" every time. The crook just wants to make money,the "self-described Saint" wants to enslave everyone so he or she can use the power of government to make them "live properly".
He'd more likely go in there and start running his mouth about the special interests that run politics and prevent anything real from happening.
Maybe,until the bags of cash start showing up. Remember Bernie has 3 homes now? A "true believer" would not have spent a million + bucks on a lakeside home he only occasionally visits. He would have spent it on something like a Food Bank.
Are the Scandinavian countries socialist? I'm not saying we could successfully emulate everything they do, but really it is their way of doing things that Bernie has been advocating for for more than 30 years now.
More proof he is a fool. The Scandinavian system worked for as long as it did because they were for all practical purposes one people with one culture,one religion,and one history,backed up with all that "free money" coming in from their offshore oil wells to support a VERY small population of people united by both DNA and customs.
This allowed them the comfort of being fools,but it was and is only a short-term comfort. They are now burning their nation down and don't know what to do about it because to admit that importing Muslims was a horrible mistake would cause them to question the other things that make them smug and preachy.
I think if you break it down the Scandinavian countries are not actually socialist. They are capitalist nations with large social safety nets.
You say that just like there is a difference. How cute! Denial ain't just a river in Egypt,bubba.
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I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.
I would caution you on that. Consider, once again, that those who are motivated by doing things to people "for their own good" are NEVER satiated, no matter the result of their actions, that those actions often result in more harm than good, justifying (in their minds) further ministrations "for their own good". These people can always find some more "good" to bestow upon others, regardless of the actual result and are NEVER satisfied.
The crook, the one who seeks wealth can be satiated, can reach that point where they have enough.
Those who would be our saviour, can never be, and thus will never rest.
As I said before, I'll take the one who is predictable, who has their definite god for which they yearn, over the one who has an ever moving target of "goodness for the masses" which can be used to justify any and every despicable act perpetrated upon the few for the benefit of the many.
Biden is a greedy crook. Sanders has dreams of being "from the government, here to help you". Those last seven words should strike terror into the hearts of any freedom loving American.
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Are the Scandinavian countries communist?
@Dexter
Is Bernie Scandinavian? Put lipstick on a pig,and it is still a pig.
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It is easier for an ideologue to deny reality than to question their own beliefs. It's a problem all along the political spectrum.
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I wish folks would quit hiding behind the Nordic countries as some sort of socialist nirvana.
First of all, they are tiny by comparison, with an homogeneous population.
Second of all, they have no defense budget to worry about, being under the jurisdiction of NATO countries... Namely US.
And even without a direct cost for defense, they are not doing very well, as their high cost socialist programs have inflated their economy tremendously.
@roamer_1
ALMOST everything above.
They are no longer an " homogeneous people". They have not only brought the fox into the hen house so they could to their little "superiority dance" to show the rest of us how "evolved" they are,but they also not only invited their destruction in,they paid it to come.
Scandinavia is now a region of physical females,and females with penises. They bleed themselves out over the centuries,and the Scandinavian men with stones that didn't die,took up with the local women in warmer climes and didn't come back.
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I would caution you on that. Consider, once again, that those who are motivated by doing things to people "for their own good" are NEVER satiated, no matter the result of their actions, that those actions often result in more harm than good, justifying (in their minds) further ministrations "for their own good". These people can always find some more "good" to bestow upon others, regardless of the actual result and are NEVER satisfied.
The crook, the one who seeks wealth can be satiated, can reach that point where they have enough.
Those who would be our saviour, can never be, and thus will never rest.
As I said before, I'll take the one who is predictable, who has their definite god for which they yearn, over the one who has an ever moving target of "goodness for the masses" which can be used to justify any and every despicable act perpetrated upon the few for the benefit of the many.
There is a quote to that effect - I have been wracking my brain cell to come up with it... Nope. Maybe @Bigun will have it...
Biden is a greedy crook. Sanders has dreams of being "from the government, here to help you". Those last seven words should strike terror into the hearts of any freedom loving American.
EXACTLY right.
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Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?
College is also made expensive by creating too much demand for it. Many would be better served with trade skills than some of the degrees they get in college.
He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.
That already exists. Every hospital ends up treating people that do not pay.
They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.
Do all workers in those nations belong to unions? Is it mandatory?
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Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.â€
--C.S. Lewis
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Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!
THAT's the quote I was thinking of! Thanks @Cyber Liberty !!
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It is inevitable. The government big enough to give you all that free stuff is big enough to rule you - And ultimately, rule you they will. It is the nature of the beast.
@roamer_1
They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.
ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law unless you are living in a police state.
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Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!
One of my favorite quotes. :thumbsup:
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I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down.
@Dexter
This is why sociologists have been pushing for things like abortion and every other means of population control for the last 100 years or so.
Some people may think there has been periods in the history of mankind where violence and lawlessness were prevalent,but they ain't seen NOTHING yet!
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@roamer_1
They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.
ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law unless you are living in a police state.
It's even more visceral than that @sneakypete ... preacher's gonna preach... Artist's gonna paint... Bean counters count beans... And governors are going to govern. By its nature government seeks to control. To constrict. That it also happens to be an attractive vehicle to be abused by criminals is beside the point. It is the nature of the thing that causes it to be necessary but constrained. If it gets loose...
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I've been hearing about technology destroying human employment for 50 years now. Your understanding of our species' ability to adapt is pretty thin. As long as there is money to be made, and the human characteristic of innovation..... Your argument is laughable.
@catfish1957
Sending factory jobs,jobs normally worked by people with no education,not much in the way of critical thinking ability who are mostly human drones,while sitting at home and earning dividends from stock profits does not lead to anything but revolution. Even if as a nation you are pulling in enough in sales to other nations to keep the newly unemployed factory workers living in public housing as some sort of "retired pets",it is NOT a long-term solution. Younger people with nothing but time on their hands and nothing productive to do will eventually get bored enough to create their own excitement.
What happens when there are more of them than there are productive people?
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Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!
I had the concept, but not the quote. Thanks! :patriot:
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It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
@Dexter
The ONLY answer to that problem is fewer people. Which eventually leads to "triage" laws that deny health care to people with certain physical or mental problems,as well as mandatory birth control.
Guess what steps lie behind "door number 2",when it becomes obvious to the few productive citizens that the non-productive citizens are a drag on the economy that is keeping THEM from living even more comfortable lives because of all the taxes they pay to support the "Perpetually poor and unemployed"?
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Another quote:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.â€
― Alexander Fraser Tytler
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We're incredible at adapting. That's why when the time comes we will make the obvious choice, which is to help people so society doesn't collapse.
@Dexter
ROFLMAO! You should change your screen name to "Pollyanna". Selfish Self-Interest RULES! Always has,always will. People can be generous with the needy for a while and feel good about themselves because of it,but when the relatively few people who remain productive are taxed to the point where the people their tax money support are living better than they are,things tend to get ugly.
ANY system that is contrary to human nature is doomed to fail in the long run. Human Nature 101 rules,socialists drool.
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Why we are incredible at adapting is because we are free. When we are no longer free, we will no longer adapt. Even now it is noticeable.
And what will make society collapse is the government y'all deserve.
@roamer_1
How can that NOT be obvious to anyone intelligent enough to populate political boards?
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@roamer_1
How can that NOT be obvious to anyone intelligent enough to populate political boards?
@sneakypete
It boggles the mind. More than that, that it is the same old siren song....The thing the yoots don't know is that us duffers have heard it all before.
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@roamer_1
They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.
ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law unless you are living in a police state.
Pete, it is the same reason that the Social Justice 'warriors', Rainbow "warriors", Feminist "warriors", etc. become incontinent in the presence of a real Warrior, or even the symbols of a true Warrior culture. It is why those groups and others of their ilk seek to destroy even the symbols of a Warrior culture, right down to sports teams' mascots.
They are singularly intolerant of those who expose their whining merely by their presence, and typically, use their powers of guile to undermine the true Warriors, and for that matter any risk takers who actually go out and do things, real, uncomfortable, and and dangerous things that the rest might sleep comfortably at night. Those who did not 'ever hold their manhoods cheap' because they didn't.
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At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is? Somebody 500 years from now would find it even more challenging to explain their everyday technology to us.
Maybe....maybe not. One thing is for certain....you can't reinvent the wheel. Most of the great technology/machines has been invented in the last one hundred and fifty years. That means for hundreds of thousands of years up to the mid 1800s humans lived mostly as their remote ancestors had lived.
Life was a struggle filled with hard work and calamities for 99% of the world's population.
Then the Industrial Revolution occurred in the mid 1800s. The people of 1900, had access to much more machines and technological advances than the people of fifty years previous.
Again, the people of 1950 had much more than the people of 1900.
Again, the people of 2000 had much more than the people of 1950.
Yet, a person (at least this person) could live a very satisfying life with just the stuff available in 1950.
Cars, planes, radios, movie theaters, tvs, refrigerators, air conditioning, washing machines, dishwashers, and a host of other devices, machines, and medical advances were readily available. Most of the things I enjoy doing in life were around in 1950. They're better today, but they're basically the same type of labor-saving machine.
We live closer to the lives of the people of 1950 than the people of 1950 did to the people of 1900.
In short, the invention of devices to make out life greatly easier has been diminishing rather than increasing.
I was quite happy before laptop computers and cell phones. I don't much use a cell phone now. I could find my way around quite well without GPS.
I enjoy the new toys available today, but I could get along without them. All I crave is good health.
So what new things might be available 50 to 100 years from now? We won't know until they're here.
Short of being able to get thousands of miles from my home more rapidly and more comfortably than now would be nice. But it's not too terrible at the moment.
Cures for horrible diseases would be nice as well.
But that wouldn't necessarily make a healthy person's life more interesting. He or she would still have to do things to make life interesting. Machines can't perform that function very well if at all.
But again, what new great machines are in the future?
There might not be as many as you think.
P.S. Forget about flying cars. Until they find a way to reverse gravity (ha,ha), flying cars will not happen.
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This thread is running over 5 pages as a result of somebody having a dorm room bull session, and revealing all of the smart stuff on TBR.
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@Dexter may I suggest a little light reading for you. It seems we have already been where you, and Bernie, would take us.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51izh2cweUL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it!
George Santayana
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I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.
I don't even think he's a decent human being. If he thinks that socialist societies of the past and now were/are superior to capitalist societies, he's an idiot fellow traveler at the least.
He is causing many thousands if not millions of impressionable young people to seriously believe a seriously flawed ideology like socialism can lead to them living better lives.
In short, he thinks we can reverse human nature.
Just by leading those many thousands of skulls full of mush astray makes him a vile scoundrel.
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@Dexter may I suggest a little light reading for you. It seems we have already been where you, and Bernie, would take us.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51izh2cweUL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The "wrong" people were in charge back then. This time it will be different because we have the giant intellects of people like Sanders.
Or something.
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Fast Times At Socialist High
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPbo9Qk6xP4#)
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I remember talking to a very liberal co-worker some years ago (fifteen or twenty) who was a world traveler.
He was nearing retirement, and he was talking about where he'd go after retiring.
I asked him what foreign country he'd retire to if he could. He said Norway.
I asked him why Norway.
He said it's because the gov. does so much for its citizens.
I then asked him if that's where's he going when he retires.
He said no.
I, puzzled, asked him why not if Norway is so great.
He said because the cost of living is too expensive.
I, puzzled, responded by asking him why it was so great then.
He said, with a little exasperation, because they do so much for their citizens.
I said, but if it's too expensive, why is it so great.
He angrily stormed off leaving me without an answer.
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But that wouldn't necessarily make a healthy person's life more interesting. He or she would still have to do things to make life interesting. Machines can't perform that function very well if at all.
@goatprairie
The ONLY thing that can make your life more interesting is your mind,and by extension,your imagination. Everything else is just a "tool".
With one possible exception. The "right" woman.
Or maybe it's the "wrong" woman? This is a subject that is SOOOO confusing.
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The "wrong" people were in charge back then. This time it will be different because we have the giant intellects of people like Sanders.
Or something.
@Cyber Liberty
Not to mention people like Slow Joe,Fauxahantus,anybody named Bush or Kennedy,anyone who is a Tan Klan official,any elected Dim official and all their voters,most "public servants" who exist to only serve themselves,the entire ANTIFA crowd,etc,etc,etc.
Not much chance of Sanders being lonely.
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Fast Times At Socialist High
I just threw up in my mouth a bit.
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@catfish1957
Sending factory jobs,jobs normally worked by people with no education,not much in the way of critical thinking ability who are mostly human drones,while sitting at home and earning dividends from stock profits does not lead to anything but revolution. Even if as a nation you are pulling in enough in sales to other nations to keep the newly unemployed factory workers living in public housing as some sort of "retired pets",it is NOT a long-term solution. Younger people with nothing but time on their hands and nothing productive to do will eventually get bored enough to create their own excitement.
What happens when there are more of them than there are productive people?
@sneakypete
When we hit that tipping point?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/AtlasShrugged.jpg)
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It's expensive because government subsidy drives up the price. Get rid of government involvement, and prices will go down. And Bernie has said repeatedly that he wants to eliminate college debt. Contrast that with Sweden:
The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.
This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.
He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right? It was my understanding that he just wants to add a public option. I don't think he wants Bill Gates to have to sit in a public clinic with the plebs.
Nope. Unlike Scandinavia, Bernie Sanders favors government setting a minimum wage.
He favors workers making more money. I think he could be reasoned with if you were willing to consider Scandinavian style unions. You're stubbornly assuming he would never consider a better option for getting what he wants and it's kinda silly. He wants to empower the working class.
You may agree with it, but Scandinavian countries do not.
They might if they had the same problem with their banks. Hell wasn't it Iceland that actually jailed bankers? They don't tolerate the kind of banking we do. Like people on your side often say, at the end of the day we are talking about different countries and different situations.
Again, Sanders wants to ban "assault weapons". Contrast that with Sweden where fully automatic weapons are legal.
Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?
But that's not what you asked. Here was the question I responded to:
Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government. There are I think 5 Scandinavian countries that all have their own variations but also have a similar objective in government. You're being kind of pedantic to be honest. I was just trying to make a point that I am quite sure still stands.
See: Elimination of private insurance, elimination of tuition lenders, takeover of energy industry, etc.
I don't think he wants to stop rich people from seeking private care. That's probably a misunderstanding. Even allowing your version of things, that is still not communism. Bernie does not want to eliminate the private sector. It would be fair to say he wants to manipulate and control it to an extent, but he doesn't want to do away with it entirely. He's not a communist. Words have meanings and if you ignore them just for the sake of political hyperbole it really impedes good and fair conversation.
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This thread is running over 5 pages
You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit. :laugh:
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You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit. :laugh:
And no one got thumped..... record?
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You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit. :laugh:
I suppose that's one way of putting it... :whistle:
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Sanders didn't leave the Primary till July in 2016 against hellary. /JS
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Sanders didn't leave the Primary till July in 2016 against hellary. /JS
I'm pleased he has not chosen to give up all the "anybody but Biteme" folks.
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Bernie does believe in more centralized control over the US economy and the clear example is his support for the Green New Deal
Sanders does believe, and there are countless examples of him stating such support, for the elimination of private insurance in favor of a one-size-fits-all government program. What Sanders wants for US healthcare system is a system that very few countries have
I am not interested in what our young friend “thinks†Sanders wants. I go by Sanders record and past statements
On top of everything, none of Sanders ideas can be paid for
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It's different this time.
IOW capitalim has prevailed while socialism/communism has murdered tens of millions, but ....
It's different this time.
a few weeks ago, your associate, chosen doctor, admitted she would accept socialism.
Go back, get a refresh on your disruption bag of tricks.
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IOW capitalim has prevailed while socialism/communism has murdered tens of millions, but ....
It's different this time.
e
a few weeks ago, your associate, chosen doctor, admitted she would accept socialism.
Go back, get a refresh on your disruption bag of tricks.
@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.
@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.
Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.
Truth matters.
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@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.
@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.
Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.
Truth matters.
Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.
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@Dexter
Watch this and educate yourself about Sweden....
https://youtu.be/0lxD-gikpMs (https://youtu.be/0lxD-gikpMs)
They backed off of their extreme socialism of the 60's and 70's because it just plain doesn't work.
Bernie knows this, but he doesn't care, because he wants America and Americans to fail and government grifters like him to get richer and richer.
Don't be a fool, young'n.
Socialism stinks.
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Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.
Quite.
He says he's here because he learns so much from us Conservatives.
Apparently not, since he's here arguing for a total failure and the complete collapse of America.
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@Dexter
We are decades away, or longer, from real Artificial intelligence, which is defined as the ability to reason, learn and adapt.
We are using computers which react to sensors to follow the lines in the road, for example, that is not AI...
Any true AI system will be limited by the programmers knowledge and personal biases.
Decades? I don't think so. AI is already performing surgeries much better than the top surgeons; cost of those surgeries are at a premium. It is predicted that AI will be able to evaluate your health and make recommendations much more rapidly and accurately than a doctor.
As for AI being limited by the programmers knowledge; IA has already been able to teach itself to play chess -- that was 2 years ago, so AI now has the ability to reason and it is no longer dependent on the programmers knowledge.
There is not going to be anything that AI can't do except have a human child (yet).
AI could easily replace humans; the sci-fi movies of years ago, are coming true.
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@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.
@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.
Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.
Truth matters.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone NOT supporting Trump. I question @Chosen Daughter conservatism and found it concerning that she stated (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) that she'd rather deal with socialism than have Donald Trump as president. I don't know of any conservative who would favor socialism over keeping our Republic in tact.
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone NOT supporting Trump. I question @Chosen Daughter conservatism and found it concerning that she stated (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) that she'd rather deal with socialism than have Donald Trump as president. I don't know of any conservative who would favor socialism over keeping our Republic in tact.
I didn't read that, but I have never questioned her conservatism. (Liking Trump does not equate with Conservatism).
I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).
But I do trust you, so I guess what I would need to see is her own clarification on the subject.
At any rate, socialism stinks.
Also, as addional thought....... saying that one would rather die in an automobile accident than die of cancer doesn't mean that one supports car crashes. Even if @Chosen Daughter says what you said she said, it doesn't mean that she "supports" socialism.
Dexter clearly does, so they aren't in the same camp, no matter what. truth seeker's accusation was false.
@libertybele
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It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
It's always different, no matter when.
But the new "productivity outlets" as you call them, can and should be in environments where humans cannot work, from the raw vacuum of space to hotspots like Fukushima and Chernobyl. There are jobs to be done that humans don't want to do, or cannot. The potential for mapping underwater sites, underground sites is extreme for small robots as well.
Replace humans? Nah.
As for AI, who is going to program it? What will it define as "efficient"?
Consider that beyond utility, not one thing on the planet, living or inert, means jack to a computer.
Trees? Plants? Animals? Computers do not have a food chain. None of that matters except for materials, and those things may be in the way of extracting them--oh, and humans, too. Some parameters of a planetary environment simply aren't necessary, and may even be detrimental. Free Oxygen only heightens opportunities for corrosion, for example. What we humans consider necessary might not factor in at all.
The concept has been explored almost ad nauseum by the science fiction community.
From a human standpoint, these machines are tools, tools which can be used to improve the 'human condition'--or eliminate it.
The real use I see for AI is to mine and utilize resources off planet, and even in parts of this planet we cannot access as humans.
Imagine, AIs mining the asteroid belt, refining ores in space, constructing entire bases and ships in that cold vacuum, without placing massive numbers of humans in peril during those operations.
But here's the catch. If you give those robots feelings, are they going to want to surrender such constructs to humans? Will they be subservient? Will they want to keep what they make? How long will it be before a semisentient machine decides it is better off running things by machines, for machines, to the exclusion of all else? (Just look at the numbers, pathetic, frail, weak, human, as they phase you out.)
Without feelings, you run into the concept that they have no loyalty to the meatbags who created them and are only in the way, a tremendous 'waste' of resources for things that can't even work in vacuum. Throw a couple of rocks and they gt those pesky humans off their mechanical backs.
We have already observed in human history that when people start acting like automatons, following a strict but flawed set of parameters (and they are always flawed, usually because of a narrow focus in their goals), that the result is death, destruction, and misery, either out of complete disregard of the effects of the process, or in some notable instances, as a result of the process. Historical attempts have been made to conduct those matters more efficiently, through the wonders of assembly line techniques, efficiency studies, and even mechanization, and the result was some of the most efficient death, destruction, and misery on the planet outside of extreme natural disasters, but hardly something we would deem 'beneficial', unless, of course we sought to eliminate entire populations. Humans being human, that also failed, with few exceptions.
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I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).
That particular Member decided to pursue interests other than posting on a Forum that's openly hostile to her positions, and I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself. It's cowardly.
@truth_seeker
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What Comrade Bernie conveniently overlooks is that socialism i.e. the forced "equalization" of everybody is authoritarianism. It is trying to pound the square peg of authoritarianism into the round hole of reality/human nature...it just doesn't fit.
What you will have is a tiny group of people at the top running things getting fat and rich like the Chavezes and the Castros and the Maos living like kings while the common people do without.
It would be great, though, to see all the Silicon Valley millionaires and billionaires who are pro-Bernie if Bernie wins.
The look on their faces when the mob comes around to their mansions to confiscate their homes, cars, boats, planes, etc. would be priceless.
"But we voted for Bernie to help the poor and oppressed" they'll wail as the mob sends hundreds of filthy, diseased, crazy homeless into their kingly abodes and relieves them of their "unnecessary"wealthy possessions.
EVERYBODY OWNS EVERYTHING will be the new motto of The Socialist States Of America.
"You didn't build that thing, so it's not yours...it's everybody's."
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Intuitive!
Plato defined the Soul of Man, asserting it differentiated every one
for eternity; creating individuality the source of our creativity.
Socialism denies individuality, as it needs equality to control.
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I didn't read that, but I have never questioned her conservatism. (Liking Trump does not equate with Conservatism).
I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).
But I do trust you, so I guess what I would need to see is her own clarification on the subject.
At any rate, socialism stinks.
Also, as addional thought....... saying that one would rather die in an automobile accident than die of cancer doesn't mean that one supports car crashes. Even if @Chosen Daughter says what you said she said, it doesn't mean that she "supports" socialism.
Dexter clearly does, so they aren't in the same camp, no matter what. truth seeker's accusation was false.
@libertybele
Fair enough ... she has not posted on this thread, nor is she here to defend herself. Enough said. Any further comments would serve no purpose other than to purposefully trash a fellow (past?) Briefer and I'm not about to do that.
Back on topic -- I'm hoping due to Bernie's age, that this is the last time that he runs for president. With any luck his political career will be ending. I am concerned about AOC in 2024 though.
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Fair enough ... she has not posted on this thread, nor is she here to defend herself. Enough said. Any further comments would serve no purpose other than to purposefully trash a fellow (past?) Briefer and I'm not about to do that.
Back on topic -- I'm hoping due to Bernie's age, that this is the last time that he runs for president. With any luck his political career will be ending. I am concerned about AOC in 2024 though.
Maybe I'm still a cockeyed optimist, but I don't think AOC has staying power. She's a flash in the pan, IMO, and too airheaded to get any traction on the national scene.
But I think you're right about Bernie..... he's too old and sick to do this again.
I'm cautiously optimistic, too, that Americans (even Democrats, some of whom I've talked with), think that socialism is a bad idea and that Bernie would be bad for America.
I know the younger generation has been told that capitalism is bad and socialism is good (witness our naive friend Dexter here), but it's going to be a while before enough voting Americans believe it's a good idea to have a socialist President.
And hopefully, I'll be with Jesus by the time it happens! happy77
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The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.
Except that Bernie is not proposing that we do what Sweden does. He is proposing something completely different, and then sending you here to lie about it.
He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right?
The word "healthcare" was not mentioned. My exact words were "This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.". And yes, I am sure about that.
He favors workers making more money.
His policies will result in higher taxes which will reduce take home pay, less jobs which will result in workers not having jobs, and a lower standard of living due to government monopolizing of private industry and over-regulation. And if you yourself were genuinely in favor of workers making more money, then you would be a huge Donald Trump supporter because under his presidency, the demand curve for labor has shifted higher than at any point in the last half century which has resulted in both higher employment and higher wages.
They might if they had the same problem with their banks.
But they don't. So again, Scandinavia acts differently from what Bernie Sanders proposes.
Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?
Uh, no. I never said that buying military grade weaponry was easy. But unlike the US, it is possible. Bernie wants to further restrict the weapons that Americans can legally own. And again, this does not align with what Scandinavia does.
Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government.
I have already proven to you that he does not. So please stop bringing up Scandinavia. Because there is very little similarity between the socialism that Sanders advocates and what Scandinavian countries already practice. In other words, just because they parrot this crap on DU does not make it true.
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Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.
As is his willingness to push this fake Scandinavia propaganda.
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The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.
He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right? It was my understanding that he just wants to add a public option. I don't think he wants Bill Gates to have to sit in a public clinic with the plebs.
He favors workers making more money. I think he could be reasoned with if you were willing to consider Scandinavian style unions. You're stubbornly assuming he would never consider a better option for getting what he wants and it's kinda silly. He wants to empower the working class.
They might if they had the same problem with their banks. Hell wasn't it Iceland that actually jailed bankers? They don't tolerate the kind of banking we do. Like people on your side often say, at the end of the day we are talking about different countries and different situations.
Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?
Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government. There are I think 5 Scandinavian countries that all have their own variations but also have a similar objective in government. You're being kind of pedantic to be honest. I was just trying to make a point that I am quite sure still stands.
I don't think he wants to stop rich people from seeking private care. That's probably a misunderstanding. Even allowing your version of things, that is still not communism. Bernie does not want to eliminate the private sector. It would be fair to say he wants to manipulate and control it to an extent, but he doesn't want to do away with it entirely. He's not a communist. Words have meanings and if you ignore them just for the sake of political hyperbole it really impedes good and fair conversation.
Just wondering @Dexter in previous posts you were moving to Sweden. Have you done that yet?
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-----------------------------------
Intuitive!
Plato defined the Soul of Man, asserting it differentiated every one
for eternity; creating individuality the source of our creativity.
Socialism denies, as it needs equality to control.
Socialism also infantilizes people.
Some years ago I read a story about emigres to Israel. The immigrants came from many countries and some from the ex Soviet Union.
The ones who came from the SU had the hardest time adjusting to a free society where you were asked to do things for yourself.
In the SU the state did almost everything for the people. It destroyed their initiative, the yearning to do things for themselves.
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Socialism also infantilizes people.
Some years ago I read a story about emigres to Israel. The immigrants came from many countries and some from the ex Soviet Union.
The ones who came from the SU had the hardest time adjusting to a free society where you were asked to do things for yourself.
In the SU the state did almost everything for the people. It destroyed their initiative, the yearning to do things for themselves.
Which is why nearly every Soviet bloc country struggles economically. After seventy years of socialist oppression, people have a hard time thinking for themselves. Some of the older folks prefer to have others think for them and take care of them.
Just like Dex does! happy77
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That particular Member decided to pursue interests other than posting on a Forum that's openly hostile to her positions, and I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself. It's cowardly.
@truth_seeker
I didn't know she was gone. I did challenge her motive and her conservatism, when she openly stated her acceptance of socialism. Conservatives by my definition don't do that or advocate for Bernie.
@Cyber Liberty
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I didn't know she was gone. I did challenge her motive and her conservatism, when she openly stated her acceptance of socialism. Conservatives by my definition don't do that or advocate for Bernie.
@Cyber Liberty
Unless she was just saying which poison she prefers less......
Your interpretation of her position as one who hates her and badgers her mercilessly because she is a social conservative and you are not, is hardly reliable.
If she comes back.....and I pray she does.....she can defend herself against your ad hominem attacks, but until she does have enough respect for the forum to not smear her behind her back like you did here.
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I don't think we have to worry anymore about Bernie. He's still hanging on and has foolishly vowed to stay in the race, but there is no way he's going to be the nominee. I think age will prevent him from running in 2024; he'll be 82. I think Uncle Joe's nomination was planned from the beginning anyways.
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I don't think we have to worry anymore about Bernie. He's still hanging on and has foolishly vowed to stay in the race, but there is no way he's going to be the nominee. I think age will prevent him from running in 2024; he'll be 82. I think Uncle Joe's nomination was planned from the beginning anyways.
Yep, get ready for Lock up Your Young Daughters 2020 Tour.
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Decades? I don't think so. AI is already performing surgeries much better than the top surgeons; cost of those surgeries are at a premium. It is predicted that AI will be able to evaluate your health and make recommendations much more rapidly and accurately than a doctor.
As for AI being limited by the programmers knowledge; IA has already been able to teach itself to play chess -- that was 2 years ago, so AI now has the ability to reason and it is no longer dependent on the programmers knowledge.
There is not going to be anything that AI can't do except have a human child (yet).
AI could easily replace humans; the sci-fi movies of years ago, are coming true.
Nah. No where near AI... Actually thinking for itself. Chess is a great example - There are a fixed number of permutations with a fixed and well defined rule set. It doesn't require 'thinking' for a computer to play chess. It has been programmed with all the possibilities. 'Thinking' happens outside of defined parameters. That is a different thing.
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Yep, get ready for Lock up Your Young Daughters 2020 Tour.
I'm really surprised no one has come forward and brought sexual harassment charges against him.
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone NOT supporting Trump. I question @Chosen Daughter conservatism and found it concerning that she stated (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) that she'd rather deal with socialism than have Donald Trump as president. I don't know of any conservative who would favor socialism over keeping our Republic in tact.
I will stand with @Chosen Daughter on that one.
I would MUCH rather put up with a Democrat practicing socialism than a Republican practicing socialism. Republicans getting comfortable with big government is precisely why liberals have no opposition.
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That particular Member decided to pursue interests other than posting on a Forum that's openly hostile to her positions, and I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself. It's cowardly.
@truth_seeker
Really? Chosen's gone?
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I will stand with @Chosen Daughter on that one.
I would MUCH rather put up with a Democrat practicing socialism than a Republican practicing socialism. Republicans getting comfortable with big government is precisely why liberals have no opposition.
Again....... a less painful form of death is not an acceptance, much less approval of that death.
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Really? Chosen's gone?
I hope and pray it’s temporary.
Though I don’t blame her after the beating she’s taken from some here.
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Again....... a less painful form of death is not an acceptance, much less approval of that death.
The fault is in the Republicans in that case.
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I will stand with @Chosen Daughter on that one.
I would MUCH rather put up with a Democrat practicing socialism than a Republican practicing socialism. Republicans getting comfortable with big government is precisely why liberals have no opposition.
@Cyber Liberty commented that "I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself." .... So ... I am refraining from further comment.
I will comment on your statement though; I don't see President Trump as a socialist.
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The fault is in the Republicans in that case.
My point in that is your (or Chosen Daughter’s) saying that she would rather America die by the socialism of Democrats than the socialism of Republicans is in no way an acceptance nor approval of socialism.
That is the accusation made here..... that CD is in solidarity with Dex, who is here defending and approving of socialism....... and that is completely and entirely dishonest.
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@Cyber Liberty commented that "I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself." .... So ... I am refraining from further comment.
I will comment on your statement though; I don't see President Trump as a socialist.
I sure do. Big government all the way.
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I hope and pray it’s temporary.
Though I don’t blame her after the beating she’s taken from some here.
My hunch is that she will be back.
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My point in that is your (or Chosen Daughter’s) saying that she would rather America die by the socialism of Democrats than the socialism of Republicans is in no way an acceptance nor approval of socialism.
That is the accusation made here..... that CD is in solidarity with Dex, who is here defending and approving of socialism....... and that is completely and entirely dishonest.
That's right as rain. :beer:
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I sure do. Big government all the way.
If anything, he has rolled back on some 'big government' policies that Bammy implemented.
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If anything, he has rolled back on some 'big government' policies that Bammy implemented.
Trillions upon trillions of dollars deny that statement. He may do it different, but hes doing it, sure enough.
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I didn't know she was gone. I did challenge her motive and her conservatism, when she openly stated her acceptance of socialism. Conservatives by my definition don't do that or advocate for Bernie.
@Cyber Liberty
'Salright. :beer:
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My hunch is that she will be back.
Maybe after the election. I dunno. I really can't blame her, she took a lot of heat. From myself included.
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My hunch is that she will be back.
I certainly hope so.
Though it takes a pretty tough skin to put up with the garbage she did with every single post.
One of the rules around here is to attack the ideas, to discuss the issues, and not attack the poster....... but EVERY SINGLE THREAD she posted was met first with vicious personal attacks without a single intent to discuss the issue in the article she posted.
The people who hated her got away with things that I've never seen happen here before.
If/when she comes back, I hope the rules of the forum are followed more closely and that she's protected from the viciousness she endured here.
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Trillions upon trillions of dollars deny that statement. He may do it different, but hes doing it, sure enough.
In all fairness, those spending measures originated in the House. The place to gut those was the Senate, and then let the Democrats whine about Republicans shutting down the Government. Unfortunately, in one of those omnibus deals, things get woven in that will hurt real people who don't deserve to be hurt (troops, dependents, veterans, to name a few). It's a vile form of blackmail the Democrats have used, and unfortunately, the MSM will beat the drum and point the fickle finger of fate at the wrong people.
Some things Trump has done have cut red tape, unfortunately, those edicts only last as long as no one reverses them with an E.O.
The greatest failures remain in the Congress, and that especially lies with the GOP when they had both houses..
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That's right as rain. :beer:
:beer:
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If anything, he has rolled back on some 'big government' policies that Bammy implemented.
But he's using big government, and executive orders to roll back those policies. Exchanging one big government ideology with another.....
Is he not?
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What Sanders wants for US healthcare system is a system that very few countries have
Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.
He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.
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Decades? I don't think so. AI is already performing surgeries much better than the top surgeons; cost of those surgeries are at a premium. It is predicted that AI will be able to evaluate your health and make recommendations much more rapidly and accurately than a doctor.
As for AI being limited by the programmers knowledge; IA has already been able to teach itself to play chess -- that was 2 years ago, so AI now has the ability to reason and it is no longer dependent on the programmers knowledge.
There is not going to be anything that AI can't do except have a human child (yet).
AI could easily replace humans; the sci-fi movies of years ago, are coming true.
These days AI is teaching itself to outplay professional gamers at live action games they have dedicated their lives to.
Good post.
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In all fairness, those spending measures originated in the House. The place to gut those was the Senate, and then let the Democrats whine about Republicans shutting down the Government. Unfortunately, in one of those omnibus deals, things get woven in that will hurt real people who don't deserve to be hurt (troops, dependents, veterans, to name a few). It's a vile form of blackmail the Democrats have used, and unfortunately, the MSM will beat the drum and point the fickle finger of fate at the wrong people.
Some things Trump has done have cut red tape, unfortunately, those edicts only last as long as no one reverses them with an E.O.
The greatest failures remain in the Congress, and that especially lies with the GOP when they had both houses..
I agree with you for the most part @Smokin Joe ... But no, the buck stops right at the top. He signed every dang one of those omnibus bills without a whimper. That's his fault, and no one elses.
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Dexter clearly does
It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.
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Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.
He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.
I know I’m wasting my time posting this but this is just one example
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/)
What you’re doing is taking his unpalatable positions and trying to mold them into something that you think is more tolerable and trying to sell that to the rest of us
The rest of us are simply going by his own words and stated positions. Which should be done with everybody run for office. We give you examples of Sanders positions that are uncomfortable to you and you turn into “what I think he really meant....â€
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It's always different, no matter when.
But the new "productivity outlets" as you call them, can and should be in environments where humans cannot work, from the raw vacuum of space to hotspots like Fukushima and Chernobyl. There are jobs to be done that humans don't want to do, or cannot. The potential for mapping underwater sites, underground sites is extreme for small robots as well.
Replace humans? Nah.
As for AI, who is going to program it? What will it define as "efficient"?
Consider that beyond utility, not one thing on the planet, living or inert, means jack to a computer.
Trees? Plants? Animals? Computers do not have a food chain. None of that matters except for materials, and those things may be in the way of extracting them--oh, and humans, too. Some parameters of a planetary environment simply aren't necessary, and may even be detrimental. Free Oxygen only heightens opportunities for corrosion, for example. What we humans consider necessary might not factor in at all.
The concept has been explored almost ad nauseum by the science fiction community.
From a human standpoint, these machines are tools, tools which can be used to improve the 'human condition'--or eliminate it.
The real use I see for AI is to mine and utilize resources off planet, and even in parts of this planet we cannot access as humans.
Imagine, AIs mining the asteroid belt, refining ores in space, constructing entire bases and ships in that cold vacuum, without placing massive numbers of humans in peril during those operations.
But here's the catch. If you give those robots feelings, are they going to want to surrender such constructs to humans? Will they be subservient? Will they want to keep what they make? How long will it be before a semisentient machine decides it is better off running things by machines, for machines, to the exclusion of all else? (Just look at the numbers, pathetic, frail, weak, human, as they phase you out.)
Without feelings, you run into the concept that they have no loyalty to the meatbags who created them and are only in the way, a tremendous 'waste' of resources for things that can't even work in vacuum. Throw a couple of rocks and they gt those pesky humans off their mechanical backs.
We have already observed in human history that when people start acting like automatons, following a strict but flawed set of parameters (and they are always flawed, usually because of a narrow focus in their goals), that the result is death, destruction, and misery, either out of complete disregard of the effects of the process, or in some notable instances, as a result of the process. Historical attempts have been made to conduct those matters more efficiently, through the wonders of assembly line techniques, efficiency studies, and even mechanization, and the result was some of the most efficient death, destruction, and misery on the planet outside of extreme natural disasters, but hardly something we would deem 'beneficial', unless, of course we sought to eliminate entire populations. Humans being human, that also failed, with few exceptions.
Even if AI and automation only eats up 95% of production we still have a very serious problem. If we manage to create AI that's capable of original thought it's going to change the world overnight. Imagine an AI that's capable of doing 10,000 years of human intellectual work over the weekend. What kind of ramifications will that have on our way of life? I wouldn't be surprised if AI is programming, repairing and upgrading itself without our help.
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It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.
No. "We" aren't.
What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.
And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.
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It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.
It's not rocket science, and people on TBR are in agreement on what Socialism is. It's what you are advocating, coming in here singing the praises of Bernie Sanders. So cut the cute crap.
How's the weather down there by the equator, BTW? I could have sworn you said you were moving to Sweden?
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But he's using big government, and executive orders to roll back those policies. Exchanging one big government ideology with another.....
Is he not?
Yes, he has used e.o. to rollback big government policies. If I recall a lot of them had to do with climate change and EPA regulations. I'm looking at it from a standpoint of decreasing Big Brother holding its thumb over us and Trump releasing some of that hold. That to me is him decreasing big government.
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No. "We" aren't.
What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.
And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.
You stole the words from my mouth. That's unsanitary! 333cleo 333cleo
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No. "We" aren't.
What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.
And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.
What I find interesting regarding Sanders was at the time he was heaping praise on totalitarian socialist dictators, was about the time Sweden was into it’s now ill fated experiment into socialism yet it appears his most vigorous praise was for the dictators
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It's not rocket science, and people on TBR are in agreement on what Socialism is. It's what you are advocating, coming in here singing the praises of Bernie Sanders. So cut the cute crap.
How's the weather down there by the equator, BTW? I could have sworn you said you were moving to Sweden?
Bernie Sanders once praised the food lines in socialist countries as a sign of progress and not as a result of rationing due to shortages caused by the very economic policies he embraces
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Yes, he has used e.o. to rollback big government policies. If I recall a lot of them had to do with climate change and EPA regulations. I'm looking at it from a standpoint of decreasing Big Brother holding its thumb over us and Trump releasing some of that hold. That to me is him decreasing big government.
That much is true if you care to count it. I see it as nibbling enough around the edges to make the claim.
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I know I’m wasting my time posting this but this is just one example
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/)
What you’re doing is taking his unpalatable positions and trying to mold them into something that you think is more tolerable and trying to sell that to the rest of us
The rest of us are simply going by his own words and stated positions. Which should be done with everybody run for office. We give you examples of Sanders positions that are uncomfortable to you and you turn into “what I think he really meant....â€
From the very top of your link.
"Some current Medicare-for-all proposals, including those from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) virtually eliminate private insurance by providing basic coverage for prescriptions, medical, vision, dental and mental health care. Private insurance would exist only for supplemental care outside of these basic provisions."
The public options would virtually eliminate the need for private insurance.
His plan would not eliminate private healthcare. It wouldn't entirely eliminate private insurance either.
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Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.
He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.
Yet again, Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance. Here he is in his own words:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAgZj7QXpDE&feature=emb_logo#)
Sanders: "What people should understand is that what “Medicare for All†does is it eliminates your private health insurance premiums. You’re not going to be paying that. You’re not going to be paying co-payments, you’re not going to paying deductibles. You’re going to be seeing your prescription drugs’ cost, in my view, come down by 50 percent. Will you be paying more in taxes? Yes, you will."
So in place of private insurance, you will simply be paying those premiums to the government in the form of higher taxes.
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Again:
Sanders: 'You're damn right' health insurance companies should be eliminated
By Michael Burke - 03/27/19 11:49 AM EDT
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who is seeking the Democratic nomination for president in 2020, late Tuesday reiterated his call for the elimination of private health insurance companies and moving to a single-payer, "Medicare for all" system of health care.
"You're damn right," Sanders wrote in a tweet in response to a Republican National Committee (RNC) Research tweet pointing out that he called for eliminating private health insurance during an interview earlier in the day.
In that MSNBC interview, Sanders said the "current system is incredibly dysfunctional and wasteful" and said universal health care can't be achieved "unless you get rid of the insurance companies."
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/436033-sanders-youre-damn-right-health-insurance-companies-should-be-eliminated
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You stole the words from my mouth. That's unsanitary! 333cleo 333cleo
Just spray some Lysol down your throat and you’ll be fine.
Probably will save you from COVID -19 too! wink777
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Yet again, Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance. Here he is in his own words:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAgZj7QXpDE&feature=emb_logo#)
Sanders: "What people should understand is that what “Medicare for All†does is it eliminates your private health insurance premiums. You’re not going to be paying that. You’re not going to be paying co-payments, you’re not going to paying deductibles. You’re going to be seeing your prescription drugs’ cost, in my view, come down by 50 percent. Will you be paying more in taxes? Yes, you will."
So in place of private insurance, you will simply be paying those premiums to the government in the form of higher taxes.
I think we’re wasting our time with this one. You show him an example, I show him an example, other people show him example and he still chooses to deny. You’re just not gonna change his mind. Even linking him to Bernie Sanders own words doesn’t do it.
Our young friend doesn’t seem to realize that we’re using Bernie Sanders own words and political positions against him. None of us are making up anything
Universal healthcare is popular until people realize that it’s not going to be “freeâ€
This is what happened to HillaryCare in the 90’s and why 80% of Colorado citizens voted no in 2016
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Except that Bernie is not proposing that we do what Sweden does. He is proposing something completely different, and then sending you here to lie about it.
I'm pretty sure Germany is doing it in a very similar way. They might even be taking it further, because they recognize that investing in the education of young people is good for the economy. Are they socialist/communist?
The word "healthcare" was not mentioned. My exact words were "This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.". And yes, I am sure about that.
He wants to largely eliminate the need for private insurance by introducing public options. Private insurance and healthcare would still exist for those that want it.
His policies will result in higher taxes which will reduce take home pay, less jobs which will result in workers not having jobs, and a lower standard of living due to government monopolizing of private industry and over-regulation. And if you yourself were genuinely in favor of workers making more money, then you would be a huge Donald Trump supporter because under his presidency, the demand curve for labor has shifted higher than at any point in the last half century which has resulted in both higher employment and higher wages.
I am a huge Donald Trump supporter. I recognize that none of this is close to possible if we open the door to anybody that manages to make it to our border. I probably have the most extreme immigration views of anybody on this forum.
But they don't. So again, Scandinavia acts differently from what Bernie Sanders proposes.
Only because they don't have the same problem due to already having their bankers on a much shorter leash, but whatever.
Uh, no. I never said that buying military grade weaponry was easy. But unlike the US, it is possible. Bernie wants to further restrict the weapons that Americans can legally own. And again, this does not align with what Scandinavia does.
"It is illegal for a civilian in Sweden to carry a firearm, unless for a specific, legal purpose;such as hunting or attending shooting ranges. To transport firearms, there are rules to adhere to;the general regulations are that the gun must be unloaded, hidden and transported in a safe and secure way under supervision."
https://www.sweden.org.za/gun-laws-in-sweden.html (https://www.sweden.org.za/gun-laws-in-sweden.html)
I am having a hard time finding resources about assault rifles specifically and what contexts they are tolerated in. Could you help me out?
I have already proven to you that he does not.
It seems an impasse has been reached.
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From the very top of your link.
"Some current Medicare-for-all proposals, including those from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) virtually eliminate private insurance by providing basic coverage for prescriptions, medical, vision, dental and mental health care. Private insurance would exist only for supplemental care outside of these basic provisions."
The public options would virtually eliminate the need for private insurance.
His plan would not eliminate private healthcare. It wouldn't entirely eliminate private insurance either.
Pure socialism. Why, oh why would I want to give up my private insurance? We pay dearly for our health insurance every month in order to receive the quality of care that we are receiving without paying higher out of pocket expenses. I can get into see my doctor either the same day or next day when I need him. With the health issues I have, I don't want to have to wait months to see him as is the case of EVERY person that I have ever talked to that has been on a socialized medicine plan in another country. One couple I know specifically came from Canada to live in the U.S. because of our health care.
Name one socialist country today that is thriving. Socialism doesn't work period. It hasn't worked in the past and sure as heck isn't going to work in the future.
Besides, as long as Trump is President there will be NO socialism! Amen Mr. President, Amen!
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What I find interesting regarding Sanders was at the time he was heaping praise on totalitarian socialist dictators, was about the time Sweden was into it’s now ill fated experiment into socialism yet it appears his most vigorous praise was for the dictators
Oh! That is an EXCELLENT point, @LMAO !! :beer:
Bernie is a long time proponent of Soviet socialism, not the Scandinavian hybrid he now claims to support.
Kudos for pointing that out for deluded @Dexter .
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I don't think we have to worry anymore about Bernie. He's still hanging on and has foolishly vowed to stay in the race, but there is no way he's going to be the nominee. I think age will prevent him from running in 2024; he'll be 82. I think Uncle Joe's nomination was planned from the beginning anyways.
You're absolutely right. It's more than likely that Bernie will never be the president.
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You're absolutely right. It's more than likely that Bernie will never be the president.
Thank God! :0001:
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This reminds me of a conversation I had fairly recently with another Bernie backer who said I was lying that Bernie ever said that food lines in socialist countries was a good thing. Even showing Bernie himself saying it didn’t convince him.
It’s incredible the human minds ability to deny the undeniable
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No. "We" aren't.
What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.
And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.
I don't think full blown socialism is possible yet. I think the writing is on the wall, though.
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From the very top of your link.
"Some current Medicare-for-all proposals, including those from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) virtually eliminate private insurance by providing basic coverage for prescriptions, medical, vision, dental and mental health care. Private insurance would exist only for supplemental care outside of these basic provisions."
The public options would virtually eliminate the need for private insurance.
His plan would not eliminate private healthcare. It wouldn't entirely eliminate private insurance either.
@Dexter
So with all of the known and documented corruption and graft in the federal government, you are ok with turning your healthcare money and decisions over to it?
The government will decide what treatment you can receive, and if you are to old, or to sick they simply will not pay... Then what?
We pay hundreds of billions of dollars per year in taxes to the Dept. of Transportation, yet we have bridges collapsing and barley navigable highways.
We pay billions of dollars per year for national security, yet we cannot secure our borders.
We have been paying billions per year for the war on poverty.... yea how's that going
We have been paying billions per year for the war on drugs.... sure thing...
Not going to get my medical care..
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Pure socialism. Why, oh why would I want to give up my private insurance?
You wouldn't have to. You'd just choose to after you realize you can still get quality care without paying for private insurance.
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I could have sworn you said you were moving to Sweden?
Life happens and I broke up with that one. Now I'm seeing somebody from Brazil.
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You wouldn't have to. You'd just choose to after you realize you can still get quality care without paying for private insurance.
@Dexter
Nothing with the government is optional.
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@Dexter
So with all of the known and documented corruption and graft in the federal government, you are ok with turning your healthcare money and decisions over to it?
The government will decide what treatment you can receive, and if you are to old, or to sick they simply will not pay... Then what?
We pay hundreds of billions of dollars per year in taxes to the Dept. of Transportation, yet we have bridges collapsing and barley navigable highways.
We pay billions of dollars per year for national security, yet we cannot secure our borders.
We have been paying billions per year for the war on poverty.... yea how's that going
We have been paying billions per year for the war on drugs.... sure thing...
Not going to get my medical care..
I have worked in the healthcare field for 30 some years and I find the most vigorous supporters of government run medicine are people who understand it the least
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You wouldn't have to. You'd just choose to after you realize you can still get quality care without paying for private insurance.
...hmm... let me see ... Bammycare was pretty much a socialistic health care plan ... how did that work out? No thank you.
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Yet again, Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance. Here he is in his own words:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAgZj7QXpDE&feature=emb_logo#)
Sanders: "What people should understand is that what “Medicare for All†does is it eliminates your private health insurance premiums. You’re not going to be paying that. You’re not going to be paying co-payments, you’re not going to paying deductibles. You’re going to be seeing your prescription drugs’ cost, in my view, come down by 50 percent. Will you be paying more in taxes? Yes, you will."
So in place of private insurance, you will simply be paying those premiums to the government in the form of higher taxes.
I'm interested how he would respond if somebody asked him directly if he intends to outlaw private care/insurance. That would never happen and I'd be surprised if that's actually his intention. If it's not allowed, which it won't be, then it won't go away. It will just be a lot less common.
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...hmm... let me see ... Bammycare was pretty much a socialistic health care plan ... how did that work out? No thank you.
Obamacare and the individual mandate were an insurance company's wet dream. Obama is corporatist trash just like Biden.
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I have worked in the healthcare field for 30 some years and I find the most vigorous supporters of government run medicine are people who understand it the least
My husband, who retired after more than 40 years in healthcare, heartily agrees with you.
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@Dexter
Nothing with the government is optional.
I'm pretty sure private care exists in every country that has implemented universal healthcare or something similar.
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In a sense, Sanders not getting the nomination is a disappointment because, if he was the nominee, his plans would be fully scrutinized in the public arena. His Green New Deal and Medicare for All would be laid bare for the public to see. His praise for the Venezuelan system in 2011 would also be problematic for him
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I don't think full blown socialism is possible yet. I think the writing is on the wall, though.
You will bury us, right?
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You will bury us, right?
:thud:
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:thud:
So...I repeat, what happened to your move to Sweden?
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You will bury us, right?
Actually, we are seeing the last cruel chapter of socialism being written. Manduro is seeking to privatize Venezuela’s state owned oil companies. More and more countries are having to trim back their social welfare programs as but a couple of examples
I predict, at some point, Venezuela will make more steps toward free market reforms.
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So...I repeat, what happened to your move to Sweden?
Plans changed because I am no longer with the girl that I planned to move there for.
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One thing I like about Dexter’s ridiculous threads is that they display the knowledge, brilliance and common sense of Briefers.
I guess one guy’s ignorance brings out the best in (most of) the rest of us! :cool:
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Plans changed because I am no longer with the girl that I planned to move there for.
Good for you, then. You probably dodged a bullet. You are probably somewhere better, hopefully not run by a right-wing dictator as we have. :patriot:
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Plans changed because I am no longer with the girl that I planned to move there for.
Sorry to hear that.
Are you currently dating someone else now if you don’t mind me asking?
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It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.
Read "Das Kapital," and the "Communist Manifesto."
Envy rich, violent revolution, ownership of the factors of production by the state.
Totalitarian. USSR, PRC, pre-1989 East Germany, Cuba, No. Korea, Venuzuela, to start the list.
They don't deny being comminist, and it amazes me that people here waste time arguing with you over this.
In case you never learned, the East German subjects were held IN by a wall, called the "Berlin Wall."
Barbed wire, an area called "No-mans' land, whereby they might "make a run for it," but get gunned down.
East Germany was the model satellite of the Soviet Union, where your buddy Bernie honeymooned.
FYI the communists, call themselves "socialists."
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One thing I like about Dexter’s ridiculous threads is that they display the knowledge, brilliance and common sense of Briefers.
I guess one guy’s ignorance brings out the best in (most of) the rest of us! :cool:
@musiclady
I really wish the politicians would take all of the issues, gun control, healthcare, etc and run them thru extensive conversations like this and find real solutions rather than sound bites and bumper sticker fodder...
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Read "Das Kapital," and the "Communist Manifesto."
Envy rich, violent revolution, ownership of the factors of production by the state.
Totalitarian. USSR, PRC, pre-1989 East Germany, Cuba, No. Korea, Venuzuela, to start the list.
They don't deny being comminist, and it amazes me that people here waste time arguing with you over this.
In case you never learned, the East German subjects were held IN by a wall, called the "Berlin Wall."
Barbed wire, an area called "No-mans' land, whereby they might "make a run for it," but get gunned down.
East Germany was the model satellite of the Soviet Union, where your buddy Bernie honeymooned.
FYI the communists, call themselves "socialists."
Yeah...no...I can't think of anybody who isn't crystal clear on what socialism is. Well, yeah, one.
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@musiclady
I really wish the politicians would take all of the issues, gun control, healthcare, etc and run them thru extensive conversations like this and find real solutions rather than sound bites and bumper sticker fodder...
They do. They're called, "Dorm-Room Bull Sessions." Leftists are famous for them, like O'Bastard.
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@musiclady
I really wish the politicians would take all of the issues, gun control, healthcare, etc and run them thru extensive conversations like this and find real solutions rather than sound bites and bumper sticker fodder...
Wouldn’t that be nice!
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I agree with you for the most part @Smokin Joe ... But no, the buck stops right at the top. He signed every dang one of those omnibus bills without a whimper. That's his fault, and no one elses.
I will disagree only because the Senate failed to negotiate worth a damn, leaving him behind the 8-ball. Perhaps he could have put up more of a fight, but they should have been the first line of resistance and they were not.
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Actually, we are seeing the last cruel chapter of socialism being written. Manduro is seeking to privatize Venezuela’s state owned oil companies. More and more countries are having to trim back their social welfare programs as but a couple of examples
I predict, at some point, Venezuela will make more steps toward free market reforms.
Maduro is too late. He's sitting on top of the (arguably) world's largest crude oil resource, and there's no market. Why would anyone go there (high risk) is an "privatized" socialist regime, when there is 35 gravity sweet crude to drill elsewhere where the only economic risks involve the market, and not the government, too.
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Even if AI and automation only eats up 95% of production we still have a very serious problem. If we manage to create AI that's capable of original thought it's going to change the world overnight. Imagine an AI that's capable of doing 10,000 years of human intellectual work over the weekend. What kind of ramifications will that have on our way of life? I wouldn't be surprised if AI is programming, repairing and upgrading itself without our help.
Then it would be a short leap of AI intellect to decide humans were not only not necessary, but possibly a hindrance to production. Like I said, that has been well explored in science fiction, and the result is seldom pretty for humans.
But there is a place, if we want to go to the stars, for AI and very capable mechanization, and that is mining and manufacturing in space, and working in other environments humans have difficulty with due to temperatures, pressures (high or low), or radiation.
Humanity's expansion into the cosmos could be spearheaded by robots, which can stand greater acceleration, and could prepare habitats in environments it would be difficult for humans to work in, and do so in advance of human arrivals.
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Read "Das Kapital," and the "Communist Manifesto."
Don't forget Mein Kampf.
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I'm interested how he would respond if somebody asked him directly if he intends to outlaw private care/insurance. That would never happen and I'd be surprised if that's actually his intention.
Yet again, here is what Sanders said:
'You're damn right' health insurance companies should be eliminated
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who is seeking the Democratic nomination for president in 2020, late Tuesday reiterated his call for the elimination of private health insurance companies and moving to a single-payer, "Medicare for all" system of health care.
"You're damn right," Sanders wrote in a tweet in response to a Republican National Committee (RNC) Research tweet pointing out that he called for eliminating private health insurance during an interview earlier in the day.
In that MSNBC interview, Sanders said the "current system is incredibly dysfunctional and wasteful" and said universal health care can't be achieved "unless you get rid of the insurance companies."
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/436033-sanders-youre-damn-right-health-insurance-companies-should-be-eliminated
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Good for you, then. You probably dodged a bullet.
Meh. She's not a bad person but I decided she's not for me.
You are probably somewhere better, hopefully not run by a right-wing dictator as we have. :patriot:
Right now I'm in Brazil with my girlfriend of almost a year. I love Trump by the way. If it's Trump vs Biden I will be voting for Trump.
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Sorry to hear that.
Are you currently dating someone else now if you don’t mind me asking?
Sure am! She's an artist/linguist from Brazil. She's a sweetheart and is as sharp as a tack; I'm head over heels.
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@musiclady
I really wish the politicians would take all of the issues, gun control, healthcare, etc and run them thru extensive conversations like this and find real solutions rather than sound bites and bumper sticker fodder...
Everybody on this forum is significantly more knowledgeable than the average voter. Low information voters on both sides lack the depth and/or focus to keep up with a conversation like this. They'd rather be watching football or scrolling through instagram.
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Then it would be a short leap of AI intellect to decide humans were not only not necessary, but possibly a hindrance to production. Like I said, that has been well explored in science fiction, and the result is seldom pretty for humans.
Hopefully the AI proves itself better than that by having the sincere desire to solve our problems and help us in finding comfort and happiness. I tend to have a more positive outlook when it comes to AI.
But there is a place, if we want to go to the stars, for AI and very capable mechanization, and that is mining and manufacturing in space, and working in other environments humans have difficulty with due to temperatures, pressures (high or low), or radiation.
Humanity's expansion into the cosmos could be spearheaded by robots, which can stand greater acceleration, and could prepare habitats in environments it would be difficult for humans to work in, and do so in advance of human arrivals.
It does seem like it'd be completely inefficient to do it any other way.
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Yet again, here is what Sanders said:
Politicians spend a lot of time speaking in front of cameras. They're not always at their best and I think pretty much all of them would try to walk back or clarify on some of their own quotes that might not be entirely fleshed out. Bernie has to know that there's no way we could outlaw private insurance, and in the absence of outlawing it it's an inevitably that it would continue to exist to some extent. With public options available private health insurance as we know it would cease to exist due to the vast majority of the public opting to use the public options instead. It seems more likely/logical that that's what he means. If I could I would question Bernie on this and ask for clarification.
I also want to reiterate that I am not a Bernie acolyte. I don't take everything he says as gospel. It might seem that way to you because I'm defending him right now, but realistically I just think he's an okay guy unlike Creepy Joe. I'll most likely be voting for Trump.
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Some people may think there has been periods in the history of mankind where violence and lawlessness were prevalent,but they ain't seen NOTHING yet!
I haven't been ignoring your posts; I just hadn't decided how to respond. I understand your view and won't put a lot of energy into trying to contradict it. I hope you're wrong. I choose to believe we will find another way.
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I don't see President Trump as a socialist.
He's a nationalist, which is something we desperately need at a time when international business people have our politicians in their pockets.
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We pay hundreds of billions of dollars per year in taxes to the Dept. of Transportation, yet we have bridges collapsing and barley navigable highways.
Bernie has received harsh criticism for wanting to see our infrastructure rebuilt to the extent that it's once again the best in the world. It'd create outrageous amounts of jobs which would drive up wages for blue collar work. I'm with you and Bernie in believing the United States shouldn't have crumbling infrastructure. It's beneath us.
We have been paying billions per year for the war on drugs.... sure thing...
I'm with Ron Paul when it comes to the war on drugs. We also give hundreds of billions away to other nations as charity at a time when we have a deficit and trillions in debt. What the hell is that about?
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Politicians spend a lot of time speaking in front of cameras. They're not always at their best and I think pretty much all of them would try to walk back or clarify on some of their own quotes that might not be entirely fleshed out. Bernie has to know that there's no way we could outlaw private insurance, and in the absence of outlawing it it's an inevitably that it would continue to exist to some extent. With public options available private health insurance as we know it would cease to exist due to the vast majority of the public opting to use the public options instead. It seems more likely/logical that that's what he means. If I could I would question Bernie on this and ask for clarification.
I also want to reiterate that I am not a Bernie acolyte. I don't take everything he says as gospel. It might seem that way to you because I'm defending him right now, but realistically I just think he's an okay guy unlike Creepy Joe. I'll most likely be voting for Trump.
And here we go again.
You still think the argument is private insurance versus public option. No. It’s people responding to your belief that Bernie Sanders does not want to get rid of private insurance when everyone has clearly demonstrated with his own words that he does. He didn’t misspoke
He has stated it more than once and it is something he firmly believes
It is clear that Sanders does believe the federal government should be front and center in peoples lives. Something Americans will not accept. Whether you think Bernie Sanders is a decent guy or not is irrelevant to the conversation. Sanders believes in centralizing just about everything to the federal government. Again, we have all very much demonstrated that that’s the case and that would be rejected by the country at large
He wants the federal government to have more control over the economy through his support of the green new deal. I think your soft spot for Sanders has kind of blinded you a bit
The Democratic Party understands that Sanders plans will not sell so Biden is the safe bet. They may not win the presidency with Biden, but it’ll protect what they’ve gained so far
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And here we go again.
You still think the argument is private insurance versus public option. No. It’s people responding to your belief that Bernie Sanders does not want to get rid of private insurance when everyone has clearly demonstrated with his own words that he does. He didn’t misspoke
He has stated it more than once and it is something he firmly believes
It is clear that Sanders does believe the federal government should be front and center in peoples lives. Something Americans will not accept. Whether you think Bernie Sanders is a decent guy or not is irrelevant to the conversation. Sanders believes in centralizing just about everything to the federal government. Again, we have all very much demonstrated that that’s the case and that would be rejected by the country at large
He wants the federal government to have more control over the economy through his support of the green new deal. I think your soft spot for Sanders has kind of blinded you a bit
The Democratic Party understands that Sanders plans will not sell so Biden is the safe bet. They may not win the presidency with Biden, but it’ll protect what they’ve gained so far
I want to see him say he would outlaw/ban private insurance or care before I agree with this, because otherwise it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It wouldn't make sense either way really. Forgive my skepticism. :shrug: Bernie is not always the most talented speaker and I think it's entirely possible he would scratch his head and say "No, I'm not talking about literally banning private insurance." if he could see this conversation.
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He's a nationalist, which is something we desperately need at a time when international business people have our politicians in their pockets.
A nationalist? I kindly suggest that you need to revisit the definitions of communist, socialist, nationalist, populist, liberal, progressive, conservative, constitutional conservative, etc.
www.ontheissues.org (http://www.ontheissues.org) might help you to look up different candidates (past candidates) to understand. What is also helpful is to look to see how candidates votes and their actions. Yes, it is difficult when one doesn't have a record, but it will give you an idea.
Take a look at the President's record. Don't go by talking points from the media or preconceived notions. Go by his accomplishments and actions.
Take a look at our Constitution. Research our founding fathers.
Research past socialists, countries under socialism. Research past communists, countries under communism. I would ask how does Bernie compare?
Secondly, and most importantly, do you truly believe that in seating a socialist in the White House your freedoms and rights under the Constitution would still apply??
This isn't just about healthcare (which seems to be a selling point for you), this IS about destroying our Republic.
Lat but not least --- something to think about:
THE AMERICAN'S CREED:
I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots scarified their lives and fortunes.
I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws; to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.
--- William Tyler Page
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A nationalist?
From the man himself...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sazitj4x6YI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sazitj4x6YI#)
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I want to see him say he would outlaw/ban private insurance or care before I agree with this, because otherwise it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It wouldn't make sense either way really. Forgive my skepticism. :shrug: Bernie is not always the most talented speaker and I think it's entirely possible he would scratch his head and say "No, I'm not talking about literally banning private insurance." if he could see this conversation.
OK now I’m wondering if you’re just trolling.
We have shown you with his own words were he does want to get rid of private insurance. You haven’t shown us any examples of the opposite. What you think he meant isn’t a counter
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Maduro is too late. He's sitting on top of the (arguably) world's largest crude oil resource, and there's no market. Why would anyone go there (high risk) is an "privatized" socialist regime, when there is 35 gravity sweet crude to drill elsewhere where the only economic risks involve the market, and not the government, too.
It’s going to take a regime change in Venezuela. Manduro is a dedicated Chavista. Without that, any attempts at privatization by him would probably be met with massive skepticism
Economics is just as much about numbers as it is about human psychology. In fact, human psychology is probably the greater factor. Simply the election of a Bernie Sanders would cause investors and businesses to make economic decisions before the first policy gets passed
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We have shown you with his own words were he does want to get rid of private insurance.
Okay. From Bernie's website...
https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/
Bernie is proposing a Medicare-for-All system of social insurance that is found in Canada, continental Europe, and in other developed nations.
In this system, every American would be automatically enrolled into Medicare. This is commonly referred to as “Medicare for All.†Like the systems in many other industrialized countries, private practitioners could still provide care, but everyone would be covered by a national health care plan. This allows for private delivery and public financing to insure guaranteed health care for all and effective cost control. This is how Medicare is delivered today for all Americans over age 65.
You would likely still be able to get private supplementary insurance. It would just be niche and largely obsolete. Apparently Canada and much of Europe does it the same way. Are they communists?
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OK now I’m wondering if you’re just trolling.
I am usually skeptical in the absence of complete certainty.
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election of a Bernie Sanders
policy gets passed
Ha, I wouldn't count of both of those things happening.
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Do any of you over 65 get medicare?
Is that communism?
Is it impossible for you to find decent care?
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I am usually skeptical in the absence of complete certainty.
You’re confusing skepticism with disbelief. I was skeptical when I heard that Sanders once praised food lines in socialist countries until I saw him in his own words
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Finding private insurance would still be possible but the vast majority would have no reason to. It would definitely hurt the insurance companies a lot.
You know what though?
SCREW the insurance companies; I don't care. They are scum that calculates profit margins based on some seriously evil shit. Private healthcare would still exist to create the competition that gives us good healthcare.
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Meh. She's not a bad person but I decided she's not for me.
Right now I'm in Brazil with my girlfriend of almost a year. I love Trump by the way. If it's Trump vs Biden I will be voting for Trump.
It's good to be with the one you love, @Dexter! Good people down in Brazil.
:thumbsup:
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You’re confusing skepticism with disbelief. I was skeptical when I heard that Sanders once praised food lines in socialist countries until I saw him in his own words
You skipped my other post. He wants to emulate Canada and much of Europe; it's right off of his website.
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Do any of you over 65 get medicare?
Is that communism?
Is it impossible for you to find decent care?
Medicare is facing massive insolvency issues. It’s future promises cannot be paid for.
The reason MD’s see Medicare pts is because Medicare pt’s also carry private insurance. Medicare is also scaling back what it pays for.
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It's good to be with the one you love, @Dexter! Good people down in Brazil.
:thumbsup:
Hey I appreciate that. There really are a lot of great people down here, and they love Americans despite anything happening in politics.
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Bernie has received harsh criticism for wanting to see our infrastructure rebuilt to the extent that it's once again the best in the world. It'd create outrageous amounts of jobs which would drive up wages for blue collar work. I'm with you and Bernie in believing the United States shouldn't have crumbling infrastructure. It's beneath us.
I'm with Ron Paul when it comes to the war on drugs. We also give hundreds of billions away to other nations as charity at a time when we have a deficit and trillions in debt. What the hell is that about?
@Dexter
Yea, this whole "foreign aide" thing needs to change, but the republicans need to learn how to talk about it.
Most of Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East was totally decimated, economically, socially and infrastructure wise, during the Second World War. Not only were they trying to physically rebuild their countries but socially, there were no jobs, no food, no shelter. We were the only nation left reasonably intact so we stepped up and really propped up most of the world while they rebuilt, and we did a great job. But that was 60 years ago and now it is time for us to redirect our effort back home, not because we have been taken advantage of or because we don't like someone, simply because it is time.
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You skipped my other post. He wants to emulate Canada and much of Europe; it's right off of his website.
It says nothing about allowing people to keep their private insurance
Look, we’re going in circles. We show you his own words re: private insurance and if his own words won’t convince you, we wont
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It says nothing about allowing people to keep their private insurance
Look, we’re going in circles. We show you his own words re: private insurance and if his own words won’t convince you, we wont
Fine, but I'm asking you if our northern neighbors are communists or not, because it's their way he wants to follow.
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it is time for us to redirect our effort back home
Finally something we agree on. Now if only we could agree on how to do that. I think if we did what we can to help more people get healthcare and go to college while simultaneously cracking down hard on immigration it would do a lot for our nation.
China has over 1.3 billion people. Their best and brightest outnumber our entire country. As jobs become more and more technical we need our young people to be educated. China is going to take over the bleep world if we don't get serious about this. We are going to lose our dominance and I really don't see China being cool about it.
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Fine, but I'm asking you if our northern neighbors are communists or not, because it's their way he wants to follow.
No, they are not communist or even socialist. They are welfare states that are finding it more difficult to really pay for.
Sanders is more similar to nations like Greece before the crash
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No, they are not communist or even socialist.
So could the same be said about Bernie's healthcare plan?
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My husband, who retired after more than 40 years in healthcare, heartily agrees with you.
It’s getting worse. Staffing issues are still the plague. And reimbursement issues aren’t helping.
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Finally something we agree on. Now if only we could agree on how to do that. I think if we did what we can to help more people get healthcare and go to college while simultaneously cracking down hard on immigration it would do a lot for our nation.
China has over 1.3 billion people. Their best and brightest outnumber our entire country. As jobs become more and more technical we need our young people to be educated. China is going to take over the bleep world if we don't get serious about this. We are going to lose our dominance and I really don't see China being cool about it.
@Dexter
Having the federal government take over the insurance industry has nothing to do with healthcare, it has to do with control and dominance.
Never have I read or heard any discussion of healthcare enhancement EXCEPT socialized medicine at the federal level, why is that? Is that the only solution or are there self serving players pushing for socialism?
No one is turned away from medical help if it is needed, so lets get that straight up front. Now the provider may not get paid by the patient but they write it off on taxes, so is the real question we want to punish the entire country because a few medical pros have to do a little dance to make their BMW payment? We need to think about what the real question is before we start advocating a solution.
In Virginia we have
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No one is turned away from medical help
Nobody is turned away from emergency medical help. Preventative care is another story. Have you ever heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? There is money to be saved in preventative care that many Americans skip.
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Very few countries have a Medicare for all program like Sanders wants. Medicare for all is more generous than any of those European countries. Sanders has no realistic way to pay for his ideas and that’s just his Medicare for All idea
I find it incredible that people put so much trust in a man who’s never worked in the healthcare field and has spent most of his life in the University system and government
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Okay. From Bernie's website...
https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/
Bernie is proposing a Medicare-for-All system of social insurance that is found in Canada, continental Europe, and in other developed nations.
You do realize that Canada and continental Europe have entirely different systems, right? Sanders' proposals have much more in common with Canada and very little in common with Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. Which is why it is ludicrous for you to prop up Sanders with the Scandinavia defense when it has been soundly proven to be false.
You would likely still be able to get private supplementary insurance.
According to Bernie Sanders, you would not.
Apparently Canada and much of Europe does it the same way.
Apparently, you are wrong about this. Private insurance is available in Europe. It is not available in Canada (although Canada does allow for private insurance that can be purchased to cover things the government healthcare plan refuses to cover).
Are they communists?
They are not. But Bernie Sanders is. So please stop with your false comparison.
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Finding private insurance would still be possible but the vast majority would have no reason to. It would definitely hurt the insurance companies a lot.
You know what though?
SCREW the insurance companies; I don't care. They are scum that calculates profit margins based on some seriously evil shit. Private healthcare would still exist to create the competition that gives us good healthcare.
:bigsilly: You truly are an IDIOT! When the government gets control of your healthcare they have control of YOU and just like ma bell, they are the only game in town and they act like it!
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Fine, but I'm asking you if our northern neighbors are communists or not, because it's their way he wants to follow.
Now before we blend terms too much - YES Canada is socialistic. And being what, maybe 60 miles from the border, with a top flight hospital system, we see a whole lot of 'medical vacationers' from Canada
It doesn't work.
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You would likely still be able to get private supplementary insurance. It would just be niche and largely obsolete. Apparently Canada and much of Europe does it the same way. Are they communists?
You need to talk to some people with health concerns and on medicare. It is quite important to have supplementary private insurance. You will be cared for without it, but in similar fashion to the health care I provide for my cattle.
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Nobody is turned away from emergency medical help. Preventative care is another story. Have you ever heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? There is money to be saved in preventative care that many Americans skip.
@Dexter
Then eat an apple
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You do realize that Canada and continental Europe have entirely different systems, right? Sanders' proposals have much more in common with Canada and very little in common with Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. Which is why it is ludicrous for you to prop up Sanders with the Scandinavia defense when it has been soundly proven to be false.
I'm just trying to demonstrate that he's not a communist. Everything Bernie wants has already been implemented by some country that isn't communist. If after everything I've outlined you see no similarity between what Bernie wants and what Scandinavia does then it really just can't be helped. We won't see eye to eye.
According to Bernie Sanders, you would not.
*****rollingeyes*****
Apparently, you are wrong about this. Private insurance is available in Europe. It is not available in Canada (although Canada does allow for private insurance that can be purchased to cover things the government healthcare plan refuses to cover).
Is Canada's healthcare system communism?
They are not. But Bernie Sanders is. So please stop with your false comparison.
*****rollingeyes*****
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Now before we blend terms too much - YES Canada is socialistic. And being what, maybe 60 miles from the border, with a top flight hospital system, we see a whole lot of 'medical vacationers' from Canada
It doesn't work.
Didn't Rand Paul go to Canada to get one of his surgeries done?
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:bigsilly: You truly are an IDIOT!
Some things never change, aye Bigun? :laugh:
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@Dexter
Then eat an apple
This response is unsatisfactory. Not all preventative measures can be taken at home.
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You need to talk to some people with health concerns and on medicare. It is quite important to have supplementary private insurance. You will be cared for without it, but in similar fashion to the health care I provide for my cattle.
Doctors will also see patients more readily with Medicare than Medicaid because Medicare patients also carry private insurance
Sanders never explains where all these doctors, nurses, and healthcare facilities will come from to take care of all these new patients that will flood the healthcare system that haven’t paid anything into it
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Didn't Rand Paul go to Canada to get one of his surgeries done?
Beats me, but we sure get a butt ton of Albertans coming down here to get what they can't get up there.
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Some things never change, aye Bigun? :laugh:
Yep! And you're occasionally coming in here trolling the place to get your jollies is one of them!
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Beats me, but we sure get a butt ton of Albertans coming down here to get what they can't get up there.
If we did something similar to Canada we would still have all of the best and brightest doctors in the world as well as the best and largest availability of high tech medical equipment.
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Yep! And you're occasionally coming in here trolling the place to get your jollies is one of them!
I average like two posts per day and I always do my very best to be respectful.
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If we did something similar to Canada we would still have all of the best and brightest doctors in the world as well as the best and largest availability of high tech medical equipment.
No, we wouldn't.
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Yep! And you're occasionally coming in here trolling the place to get your jollies is one of them!
Got to hand it to Myst, being so tolerant. Some of his views would have gotten him zotted at most all the other Conservative Forums.
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@Bigun
In seven years on this forum you have never seen me call somebody an idiot.
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No, we wouldn't.
We lead the world and medical innovation.
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No, we wouldn't.
Where would they go? We're the only industrialized nation that doesn't have a national healthcare system. :silly: Will they practice in Chad? Ethiopia?
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Got to hand it to Myst, being so tolerant. Some of his views would have gotten him zotted at most all the other Conservative Forums.
And I think that’s a good thing. Otherwise, it’s easy to get trapped in an information bubble
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We lead the world and medical innovation.
As a nationalist I find the notion that that would end to be a little bit offensive. We will not stop kicking ass if we copy Canada's healthcare.
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Where would they go? We're the only industrialized nation that doesn't have a national healthcare system. :silly: Will they practice in Chad? Ethiopia?
We have a lot of doctors from countries like India, China, etc. etc. Their reply is that the US is where they can make the most money
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Got to hand it to Myst, being so tolerant. Some of his views would have gotten him zotted at most all the other Conservative Forums.
I almost did get banned once upon a time. Luckily Myst recognized that I'm not here with bad intentions.
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the US is where they can make the most money
That won't stop being the case.
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And I think that’s a good thing. Otherwise, it’s easy to get trapped in an information bubble
:thumbsup:
Same reason I'm here.
What's wrong with stress testing your beliefs? It makes all of us sharper.
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That won't stop being the case.
Actually it would
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I find it incredible that people put so much trust in a man who’s never worked in the healthcare field and has spent most of his life in the University system and government
Bernie Sanders knows as much about the healthcare field as Heinrich Himmler knew about genetics.
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Actually it would
Which country would all of the world class doctors move to for better pay? Does that country have a national healthcare system?
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As a nationalist I find the notion that that would end to be a little bit offensive. We will not stop kicking ass if we copy Canada's healthcare.
It seems you're asking us to put our healthcare in the hands of an inefficient federal government based on what you believe will happen
Be it healthcare innovation or producing widgets , when the profit motivator is removed, the incentive goes with it. Human nature doesn’t care if you’re offended by that
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Where would they go? We're the only industrialized nation that doesn't have a national healthcare system. :silly: Will they practice in Chad? Ethiopia?
They'll disappear.
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Apparently the U.S is only third on the list of countries that pay doctors the most.
https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors (https://www.careeraddict.com/top-5-countries-with-the-highest-paid-salaries-for-doctors)
The top two have a national healthcare system.
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They'll disappear.
You think people will just stop being doctors? By the way check out my link above. There are countries with national healthcare systems that pay their doctors more, and Iceland (Scandinavian) is right behind us.
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As a nationalist I find the notion that that would end to be a little bit offensive. We will not stop kicking ass if we copy Canada's healthcare.
Actually, yes we would.
Ask your question the other way around: Why isn't Canada (or England, etc) the leader(s) of innovation?
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You need to talk to some people with health concerns and on medicare. It is quite important to have supplementary private insurance. You will be cared for without it, but in similar fashion to the health care I provide for my cattle.
Speaking of cattle, it is worth noting that a Canadian needing a CAT scan can get same-day service at a veterinarian's office instead of having to wait weeks to get one from their national health service.
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Bernie Sanders knows as much about the healthcare field as Heinrich Himmler knew about genetics.
Well, the Germans once believed Himmler did. Some people believe Sanders does
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You think people will just stop being doctors? By the way check out my link above. There are countries with national healthcare systems that pay their doctors more, and Iceland (Scandinavian) is right behind us.
Yes, they would. As a matter of fact, I know 3 personally that closed their practice due to Obummercare, and another that barely held on... And he's my brother. Obamacare literally decimated his practice.
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We lead the world and medical innovation.
That's because there is freedom here that does not exist in countries where healthcare is controlled by the government.
No matter what Dex claims, health care declines when the government takes over.
Ask any patient in a British hospital about the care they get, and why, after decades of socialized medicine beginning after WWII, England is moving away from their failed system.
Yeah....... it's great for students who get free check ups, but it ends up being terrible if you need surgery, or even have to be hospitalized.
Just like the rest of socialism, socialized medicine fails EVERY time it's tried.
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Actually, yes we would.
Ask your question the other way around: Why isn't Canada (or England, etc) the leader(s) of innovation?
Also, why are Detroit and Seattle hospital parking lots filled with Canadian license plates, yet you see no US plates at Vancouver or Windsor hospitals?
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Yes, they would. As a matter of fact, I know 3 personally that closed their practice due to Obummercare, and another that barely held on... And he's my brother. Obamacare literally decimated his practice.
We lost a lot of good docs and good potential docs because of Obamacare.
The more healthcare is controlled by the government the less it actually works to keep people healthy.
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Yes, they would. As a matter of fact, I know 3 personally that closed their practice due to Obummercare, and another that barely held on... And he's my brother. Obamacare literally decimated his practice.
My doctor had to quit after Obamacare was instituted as well. As did three consecutive insurers I was using. Following that I couldn't find a policy that wasn't 3x higher than I was paying in 2008 & I went for several years without any insurance.
Obamacare was an unmitigated disaster for me.
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If we did something similar to Canada we would still have all of the best and brightest doctors in the world as well as the best and largest availability of high tech medical equipment.
People die in Canada waiting for life-saving surgeries. And they suffer waiting for corrective surgeries for months on end.
Why don't you actually find out what the situation is and not just vomit propaganda?
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My doctor had to quit after Obamacare was instituted as well. As did three consecutive insurers I was using. Following that I couldn't find a policy that wasn't 3x higher than I was paying in 2008 & I went for several years without any insurance.
Obamacare was an unmitigated disaster for me.
And millions of others.
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We lost a lot of good docs and good potential docs because of Obamacare.
The more healthcare is controlled by the government the less it actually works to keep people healthy.
That's right.
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We lost a lot of good docs and good potential docs because of Obamacare.
The more healthcare is controlled by the government the less it actually works to keep people healthy.
What I have seen is they adjust their practices. Some retired early. Sanders never really explains were all these healthcare workers and facilities will come from to take care of 327 some million people who will flood the system with their newly free healthcare.
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My doctor had to quit after Obamacare was instituted as well. As did three consecutive insurers I was using. Following that I couldn't find a policy that wasn't 3x higher than I was paying in 2008 & I went for several years without any insurance.
Obamacare was an unmitigated disaster for me.
You have my sympathies, but I am not surprised. I have heard that tale over and again
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Didn't Rand Paul go to Canada to get one of his surgeries done?
Shouldice Hospital is a private hospital. Medical fees are not covered by the Canadian healthcare service. The patient is the customer - not the government.
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There are reforms that could be tried but nationalization of our healthcare system is not the answer. Especially MFA
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Obamacare was an unmitigated disaster for me.
Lost my doctor too. I get so sick of the lies.
If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.
If you like your insurance plan, you can keep your insurance plan.
If you like Scandinavia healthcare, then Bernie Sanders will make it happen.
Healthcare in the UK is better than it is here.
Innovation will continue even after you remove the incentive for innovation.
Monopolies provide better service at lower cost than does a free market.
Etc.
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You have my sympathies, but I am not surprised. I have heard that tale over and again
The whole Obamacare fiasco was a good reminder of the truth in Pericles old admonition - Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. Or, in this case, Hope n' change.
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There are reforms that could be tried but nationalization of our healthcare system is not the answer. Especially MFA
Quite the other way around. Deregulation. And get Uncle Nanny out of the insurance business. Favor nurse practitioners. and other lesser degrees that can handle volume at a cheaper rate.
Personally, I'd like insurance wiped out and go back to cash on the barrel head. THEN the prices would plummet.
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That's because there is freedom here that does not exist in countries where healthcare is controlled by the government.
No matter what Dex claims, health care declines when the government takes over.
Ask any patient in a British hospital about the care they get, and why, after decades of socialized medicine beginning after WWII, England is moving away from their failed system.
Yeah....... it's great for students who get free check ups, but it ends up being terrible if you need surgery, or even have to be hospitalized.
Just like the rest of socialism, socialized medicine fails EVERY time it's tried.
It's not just healthcare that goes to hell when the government takes it over.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040602201751/http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040602201751/http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm)
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The whole Obamacare fiasco was a good reminder of the truth in Pericles old admonition - Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. Or, in this case, Hope n' change.
That's right... and lest we forget - what @Dexter desires has just been tried - Shoved down our throats - And an epic failure. To the degree that mere failure is an understatement.
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Personally, I'd like insurance wiped out and go back to cash on the barrel head. THEN the prices would plummet.
That would do it
The problem it would cut the pay of healthcare staff. Many of them paid a lot of money for school
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This response is unsatisfactory. Not all preventative measures can be taken at home.
@Dexter
I though you were playing the marketing slogan game.... an apple a day keeps the doctor away.... or are you to young for that...
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It's not just healthcare that goes to hell when the government takes it over.
Amen to that!
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Quite the other way around. Deregulation. And get Uncle Nanny out of the insurance business. Favor nurse practitioners. and other lesser degrees that can handle volume at a cheaper rate.
Personally, I'd like insurance wiped out and go back to cash on the barrel head. THEN the prices would plummet.
Has anyone ever pointed out the correlation between the cost of US health services and the implementation of Medicare? Seems to me prior to '66 my folks would pay for medical care by check at the counter on the way out the doctor's office.
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That would do it
The problem it would cut the pay of healthcare staff. Many of them paid a lot of money to school
Right... because of our socialistic education system. Same thing. Cut the props that are holding up the cost of education. And that don't mean 'free' college. Slash and burn the grant system, and remove the government guarantees on student loans... Make them bastards work for it and compete.
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Has anyone ever pointed out the correlation between the cost of US health services and the implementation of Medicare? Seems to me prior to '66 my folks would pay for medical care by check at the counter on the way out the doctor's office.
The onset of medicare was the beginning of the extreme rise in medical care.
My Dad, a dentist, but extremely aware of the entire medical profession, screamed bloody murder when Medicare passed and was implemented.
And he was right.
Socialized medicine has been a disaster from the beginning.
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The onset of medicare was the beginning of the extreme rise in medical care.
My Dad, a dentist, but extremely aware of the entire medical profession, screamed bloody murder when Medicare passed and was implemented.
And he was right.
Socialized medicine has been a disaster from the beginning.
:amen: pointing-up
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What I have seen is they adjust their practices. Some retired early. Sanders never really explains were all these healthcare workers and facilities will come from to take care of 327 some million people who will flood the system with their newly free healthcare.
Apparently Bernie supporters can't see past the ends of their noses, nor have the brains to come to the logical conclusion of his proposals.
The dumbing down of America is what has cause the rise of Bernie's popularity.
NOTHING he proposes makes sense. NOTHING he proposes will work. NOTHING he proposes will do anything but destroy America.
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The onset of medicare was the beginning of the extreme rise in medical care.
My Dad, a dentist, but extremely aware of the entire medical profession, screamed bloody murder when Medicare passed and was implemented.
And he was right.
Socialized medicine has been a disaster from the beginning.
And of course, in response to a problem government created, government's solution is more government.
When will people wake up.
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Okay. From Bernie's website...
https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/
You would likely still be able to get private supplementary insurance. It would just be niche and largely obsolete. Apparently Canada and much of Europe does it the same way. Are they communists?
Just checking, but those of us in Northern 'border' states are well aware that Canadians who need medical procedures (cardiac cath, stents, bypass operations, etc.) to stay alive come to the States to get it or die in Canada on a waiting list.
It isn't even about '-isms', it is about the efficiency of a health CARE system.
Insurance is just one way to pay the tab, it isn't health care.
THat the two have been so muddled is a real pain in trying to even discuss the matter.
And when the GOvernment stepped in to make sure all Americans had health care (The ACA), I LOST my health insurance, along with millions of other Americans, presented with patently unaffordable options mandated by the government.
Considering there is an auto insurance company which makes it's sales pitch based on getting the coverage you need, tell me again as a great grandfather why I need to pay for mammogram insurance or OB/GYN that I will never, ever use, or pay for coverage of pre-existing conditions I don't have and am not at risk for? Yet these requirements caused my then current insurance carrier to stop offering insurance in this state, and the two options on the "exchange" to be so ridiculously high priced, and have huge deductibles, that the only remaining option was to risk staying healthy and paying for minor issues out of pocket, tax/PENALTY! or no. With car insurance I can be part of a risk pool of people who behave similarly and get similar results from that behaviour, so why not with health?
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Has anyone ever pointed out the correlation between the cost of US health services and the implementation of Medicare? Seems to me prior to '66 my folks would pay for medical care by check at the counter on the way out the doctor's office.
The indicator of all indicators: In any sector other than health, cash on the barrel head gets the deal. I have spent my whole life with a roll of hundreds in my pocket BECAUSE I can move the deal with cash.
Off the FRONT, that is not true (or wasn't until recently) in healthcare. You get the tourist discount if you are not insured.
Now, off the back you can deal - let the thing languish a few months, and just prior to it going to collection, walk in to the bean-counter and lay down the Benjamins... You can settle, no fault no foul, somewhere between a quarter and a tenth.
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Government, all levels, is killing the private sector over time!
Death by a thousand cuts is still death!
http://web.archive.org/web/20040602201751/http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040602201751/http://mwhodges.home.att.net/piechart.htm)
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The onset of medicare was the beginning of the extreme rise in medical care.
My mother has worked in the medical field most of her life. She remembers vividly how bitterly the AMA fought against Medicare and Medicaid back in the 60s. At the time, every doctor in America gave free healthcare services to the poor. It was simply an integral part of their profession. House calls, personal relationships, and affordable service were the norm. But once the government took over, doctors stopped giving free care to the poor. Their personal relationship with poor patients ended because the government now became the customer. And the government doesn't pay for house calls.
Our healthcare industry has been ruined by government interference. The best thing the government can do today to save the health care industry is to get the hell out of the way.
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My mother has worked in the medical field most of her life. She remembers vividly how bitterly the AMA fought against Medicare and Medicaid back in the 60s. At the time, every doctor in America gave free healthcare services to the poor. It was simply an integral part of their profession. House calls, personal relationships, and affordable service were the norm. But once the government took over, doctors stopped giving free care to the poor. Their personal relationship with poor patients ended because the government now became the customer. And the government doesn't pay for house calls.
Our healthcare industry has been ruined by government interference. The best thing the government can do today to save the health care industry is to get the hell out of the way.
:yowsa: pointing-up pointing-up
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And of course, in response to a problem government created, government's solution is more government.
When will people wake up.
BOOM, baby!
:beer:
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Just checking, but those of us in Northern 'border' states are well aware that Canadians who need medical procedures (cardiac cath, stents, bypass operations, etc.) to stay alive come to the States to get it or die in Canada on a waiting list.
FACT.
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The indicator of all indicators: In any sector other than health, cash on the barrel head gets the deal. I have spent my whole life with a roll of hundreds in my pocket BECAUSE I can move the deal with cash.
Off the FRONT, that is not true (or wasn't until recently) in healthcare. You get the tourist discount if you are not insured.
Now, off the back you can deal - let the thing languish a few months, and just prior to it going to collection, walk in to the bean-counter and lay down the Benjamins... You can settle, no fault no foul, somewhere between a quarter and a tenth.
I learned about the 'tourist discount' during my un-insured period. Apparently there are many doctors who are more than happy to avoid having to deal with the insurance corporations.
It would be nice to use cash for routine healthcare and insurance for catastrophes but there is no such thing as a reduced rate catastrophe-only healthcare policy.
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My mother has worked in the medical field most of her life. She remembers vividly how bitterly the AMA fought against Medicare and Medicaid back in the 60s. At the time, every doctor in America gave free healthcare services to the poor. It was simply an integral part of their profession. House calls, personal relationships, and affordable service were the norm. But once the government took over, doctors stopped giving free care to the poor. Their personal relationship with poor patients ended because the government now became the customer. And the government doesn't pay for house calls.
Our healthcare industry has been ruined by government interference. The best thing the government can do today to save the health care industry is to get the hell out of the way.
Another massive aspect was levering the churches out of healthcare facilities.
Back in the 70s, law was passed to eliminate health facilities from under a church's non-profit designation, exposing them to massive taxation. Shortly thereafter, Churches got out, and business got in... And prices have been soaring ever since.
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Personally, I'd like insurance wiped out and go back to cash on the barrel head. THEN the prices would plummet.
You mean for you to become the customer instead of the insurance company? That's crazy talk.
Seriously though, just had an ENT visit. They checked out the chip in my CPAP machine and then handed me a brand new mask and accessories (which I didn't ask for) and had me sign a paper showing the costs. I asked if they expected me to pay for all of it. They replied, "No, your insurance will cover it." Had they asked me in advance, they would have found that insurance isn't going to pay for anything until my $12,000 deductible is met (which will never happen, as cheap as I am). So I am leaving the new accessories on the shelf unopened so that I can return them when I finally get the bill. And with the returned items, they will also get a harsh reminder from me that I am the customer here - not the insurance company.
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My mother has worked in the medical field most of her life. She remembers vividly how bitterly the AMA fought against Medicare and Medicaid back in the 60s. At the time, every doctor in America gave free healthcare services to the poor. It was simply an integral part of their profession. House calls, personal relationships, and affordable service were the norm. But once the government took over, doctors stopped giving free care to the poor. Their personal relationship with poor patients ended because the government now became the customer. And the government doesn't pay for house calls.
Our healthcare industry has been ruined by government interference. The best thing the government can do today to save the health care industry is to get the hell out of the way.
I agree fully.
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I learned about the 'tourist discount' during my un-insured period. Apparently there are many doctors who are more than happy to avoid having to deal with the insurance corporations.
You misunderstand: 'Tourist discount' costs MORE. That street jargon is based upon the idea of tourist traps. And as I said, until recently, if you didn't have insurance, you paid MORE to pay all cash down.
I spent most of my life with no insurance. And I know how to wheel and deal. A busted leg seriously cost me 300 bucks MORE paying cash upfront. And that was not uncommon.
Thankfully, I had an old school practitioner who liked to barter, so the lion's share of my healthcare was after hours sitting on his kitchen table... or resort to somehow illegal means of having a vet or an intern/nurse stitch me up.
So I avoided hospitals like the plague. Still do. And like I said, even yet the way to handle them is off the back end... They settle for way less, which shows where their margin really is.
Since Obamacare, there are now a small clutch of health offices that prefer not to mess with insurance anymore... My dentist did that. He is now all cash on the barrel head. no insurance honored at all. And his prices dropped in half, right off the bat.
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You mean for you to become the customer instead of the insurance company? That's crazy talk.
I know right?
888high58888
Seriously though, just had an ENT visit. They checked out the chip in my CPAP machine and then handed me a brand new mask and accessories (which I didn't ask for) and had me sign a paper showing the costs. I asked if they expected me to pay for all of it. They replied, "No, your insurance will cover it." Had they asked me in advance, they would have found that insurance isn't going to pay for anything until my $12,000 deductible is met (which will never happen, as cheap as I am). So I am leaving the new accessories on the shelf unopened so that I can return them when I finally get the bill. And with the returned items, they will also get a harsh reminder from me that I am the customer here - not the insurance company.
Yeah. After my wife's C-section, I went down the bill and found 900 bucks worth of basically tupperware, still in the wrapper never used, that I was being billed for. Part of the package, can;t be helped... but I got to take that 900 dollar tupperware home *****rollingeyes*****
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You need to put your jumpin heffalump back... As I go along reading I hit a post and say "Hmm! this new guy knows what he's saying!"
And it's YOU. I already know you know what you're talkin about.
It's crampin my buzz, d00d.
:seeya:
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My mother has worked in the medical field most of her life. She remembers vividly how bitterly the AMA fought against Medicare and Medicaid back in the 60s. At the time, every doctor in America gave free healthcare services to the poor. It was simply an integral part of their profession. House calls, personal relationships, and affordable service were the norm. But once the government took over, doctors stopped giving free care to the poor. Their personal relationship with poor patients ended because the government now became the customer. And the government doesn't pay for house calls.
Our healthcare industry has been ruined by government interference. The best thing the government can do today to save the health care industry is to get the hell out of the way.
Yes! Yes!! YES!!!!
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Right... because of our socialistic education system. Same thing. Cut the props that are holding up the cost of education. And that don't mean 'free' college. Slash and burn the grant system, and remove the government guarantees on student loans... Make them bastards work for it and compete.
So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
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So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
If they are healthcare staff, chances are they are already working. Add in a dash of tort reform, and more of the up to 50% of their income that goes to liability insurance should stay in their pockets and be available to pay off debts.
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So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
Throw the Marxist income tax and it's handmaiden the IRS onto the Ash heap of history and replace it with a point of retail sale only sales tax and the problem is solved @LMAO @Smokin Joe
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So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
We don't do anything with the staff. Unfortunately for them, they are stuck with loans having interest rates much higher than the free market price (thanks to Obama). We simply sell their loans to the highest bidder, and give the market back to Sallie Mae.
(Incidentally, doctors have one of the highest default rates of any profession)
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So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
I dunno, but I've heard plenty of people say the solution for Social Security is the either start means-testing it to screw the people who saved money in 401ks, or just default the whole system and start from scratch, screwing everybody who's retired or wants to be. "They should have known it was a lie when they were forced to contribute."
Everybody who suggests that is 30 years old or less. Plenty of time for them to adjust, and it's just TFB for everybody else. These are the people who expect to assign us all to Nursing Homes later in life.
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I dunno, but I've heard plenty of people say the solution for Social Security is the either start means-testing it to screw the people who saved money in 401ks, or just default the whole system and start from scratch, screwing everybody who's retired or wants to be. "They should have known it was a lie when they were forced to contribute."
Everybody who suggests that is 30 years old or less. Plenty of time for them to adjust, and it's just TFB for everybody else. These are the people who expect to assign us all to Nursing Homes later in life.
You think the coronavirus has people in a panic, just start means testing people and taking away people's social security ... you will see mass riots and civil unrest. Social security is NOT an entitlement -- it is money that was taken from every working person for all of their working lives and put into a fund of which they were told would be there for their retirement.
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You think the coronavirus has people in a panic, just start means testing people and taking away people's social security ... you will see mass riots and civil unrest. Social security is NOT an entitlement -- it is money that was taken from every working person for all of their working lives and put into a fund of which they were told would be there for their retirement.
Right. I have been paying in for 49 years so far, and still have a few to go before I can draw full benefits.
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Social security is NOT an entitlement -- it is money that was taken from every working person for all of their working lives and put into a fund of which they were told would be there for their retirement.
It is an entitlement because you have no legal claim for the money that you paid in. It never went into any fund, but instead got spent the moment it hit the Treasury. I know what they were told, but it is not legally binding. The Congress can vote to stop paying out Social Security at the drop of a hat, and the taxpayer will have zero recourse.
I know it sucks, but that is the reality of it.
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It is an entitlement because you have no legal claim for the money that you paid in. It never went into any fund, but instead got spent the moment it hit the Treasury. I know what they were told, but it is not legally binding. The Congress can vote to stop paying out Social Security at the drop of a hat, and the taxpayer will have zero recourse.
I know it sucks, but that is the reality of it.
Just because the people who were supposed to be managing the program have been looting it (Recall the "I.O.U.s in the dropbox, anyone?) doesn't mean we have no claim to the money.
In fact, I'd rank our claim far ahead of the 'Free Sh*t Army' who never paid in a dime and whose votes have been bought with the money, often living with more perks and bennies than those of us who worked for a living have had.
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It is an entitlement because you have no legal claim for the money that you paid in. It never went into any fund, but instead got spent the moment it hit the Treasury. I know what they were told, but it is not legally binding. The Congress can vote to stop paying out Social Security at the drop of a hat, and the taxpayer will have zero recourse.
I know it sucks, but that is the reality of it.
If that's true why was Social Security sending me annual updates telling me how much money I had coming to me?
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In fact, I'd rank our claim far ahead of the 'Free Sh*t Army' who never paid in a dime and whose votes have been bought with the money, often living with more perks and bennies than those of us who worked for a living have had.
Thirty percent of your claim is already going to the Free Sh*t Army. Only 70% of people collecting Social Security are beyond retirement age. You can feel justified to it because you 'paid in'. But the fact of the matter is that Social Security tax is just a tax like all other taxes that gets spent the second it arrives in the Treasury. It is 12.5% of your income. And the money you collect comes from the same Treasury that everyone else is paying into, just like food stamps, WIC, AFDC, EITC, etc.
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If that's true why was Social Security sending me annual updates telling me how much money I had coming to me?
Just trying to calm the masses to keep the ponzi scheme going. It doesn't require that much math to see where the program will be twenty years from now. There will be only two workers to pay the benefits for each retiree. And that is mathematically impossible. In other words, the same government that has lied to you for the past half century about the Social Security Trust Fund is the same government sending you those updates.
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Thirty percent of your claim is already going to the Free Sh*t Army. Only 70% of people collecting Social Security are beyond retirement age. You can feel justified to it because you 'paid in'. But the fact of the matter is that Social Security tax is just a tax like all other taxes that gets spent the second it arrives in the Treasury. It is 12.5% of your income. And the money you collect comes from the same Treasury that everyone else is paying into, just like food stamps, WIC, AFDC, EITC, etc.
Sad but true! They put Bernie Madof in prison for doing the exact same thing the government has been doing since 1935!
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Just trying to calm the masses to keep the ponzi scheme going. It doesn't require that much math to see where the program will be twenty years from now. There will be only two workers to pay the benefits for each retiree. And that is mathematically impossible. In other words, the same government that has lied to you for the past half century about the Social Security Trust Fund is the same government sending you those updates.
Just imagine a workforce paying in, the size of those shredded since Roe...
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People die in Canada waiting for life-saving surgeries.
You think that doesn't happen here? Do you have any idea how many people suffer and/or die due to not being able to afford preventative care before something turned into a disaster? There are mountains of horror stories about our healthcare system. Having a public option you have to wait for is better than having no option at all because you can't afford one.
Canada has ERs too, and it is also illegal to deny emergency care. The treatable things people are dying of kill people here too because they weren't able to afford it.
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You think that doesn't happen here? Do you have any idea how many people suffer and/or die due to not being able to afford preventative care before something turned into a disaster? There are mountains of horror stories about our healthcare system. The fact remains though that if those people in Canada could have afforded it they would have gotten private care. Having a public option you have to wait for is better than having no option at all because you can't afford one.
Canada has ERs too, and it is also illegal to deny emergency care. The treatable things people are dying of would have killed them here too because they wouldn't have been able to afford it.
@Dexter
But Dex, the idea is to do better, not just swap one problem for another.
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@Dexter
But Dex, the idea is to do better, not just swap one problem for another.
We have one of the lowest public approvals of healthcare in the world. In Scandinavian nations it is over 90%. Are you going to tell me they're just ignorant of how bad they actually have it compared to us?
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You think that doesn't happen here?
No.
Do you have any idea how many people suffer and/or die due to not being able to afford preventative care before something turned into a disaster?
Zero.
There are mountains of horror stories about our healthcare system.
Give me five of them.
The fact remains though that if those people in Canada could have afforded it they would have gotten private care.
It's hard to pay for private care when you are already paying (at the point of a gun) for the government system. The point which you are acknowledging is that there are shortcomings with the government system that can only be addressed through another means. Of course Bernie Sanders opposes that second option.
Having a public option you have to wait for is better than having no option at all because you can't afford one.
But this isn't the case. (See: False dilemma)
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We have one of the lowest public approvals of healthcare in the world. In Scandinavian nations it is over 90%.
Bernie Sanders does not support Scandinavian health care. We established that fact already. Why do you keep bringing up Scandinavia?
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We have one of the lowest public approvals of healthcare in the world. In Scandinavian nations it is over 90%. Are you going to tell me they're just ignorant of how bad they actually have it compared to us?
@Dexter
I don't care what other countries do, and I could care less what their opinion of us is.... I really don't think a lot of them either.
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No matter what Dex claims, health care declines when the government takes over.
Rates of public approval and general health of the public seem to indicate otherwise. Y'all can bark and bark about how bad it is in a country you don't actually live in, but maybe you should look at the general views of the people that actually do live there. Public approval is much higher elsewhere because on average they are getting a much better deal. It works better for more people and there are statistics to back that up.
All you have are anecdotes, which are worth nothing.
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The USSR used to put out the same stats....
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Rates of public approval and general health of the public seem to indicate otherwise. Y'all can bark and bark about how bad it is in a country you don't actually live in, but maybe you should look at the general views of the people that actually do live there. Public approval is much higher elsewhere because on average they are getting a much better deal. It works better for more people and there are statistics to back that up.
All you have are anecdotes, which are worth nothing.
Socialist propaganda is far worse......
But you do it so well!
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Zero.
Who is trolling now?
Give me five of them.
Right wing media outlets won't show stuff like that because it's against their interests. You won't accept information from anywhere else as legitimate.
Bernie Sanders does not support Scandinavian health care. We established that fact already. Why do you keep bringing up Scandinavia?
So you'd be in favor of Scandinavian style healthcare if Bernie went for that instead? I'm sure Bernie would be about it if right wingers were actually open minded to it, but we both know you're just playing games right now and would never even entertain the thought.
Oh, by the way, public approval of healthcare in Canada may not be 90% or more but it is still way higher than it is in the U.S.
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The USSR used to put out the same stats....
We're comparing Canada, Germany, Scandinavia etc to the USSR? :whistle:
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@Dexter
I don't care what other countries do, and I could care less what their opinion of us is.... I really don't think a lot of them either.
It's not about their opinion of us. It's about their opinion of their own healthcare system. People there love their healthcare by comparison. I wonder why that is.
If you went to any of those nations and floated the idea of American style healthcare you would be laughed out of the room.
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It's not about their opinion of us. It's about their opinion of their own healthcare system. People there love their healthcare by comparison. I wonder why that is.
Don't care. I don't run other peoples lives, that is what socialists do.
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Socialist propaganda is far worse......
But you do it so well!
I don't have anything constructive to say in response because you didn't actually address my argument.
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Don't care.
Obviously...
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Rates of public approval and general health of the public seem to indicate otherwise
No, they do not.
Y'all can bark and bark about how bad it is in a country you don't actually live in
Don't need to. I can listen to real live Canadians complain about how bad their healthcare system is.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw#)
but maybe you should look at the general views of the people that actually do live there.
I will make a deal with you then. Let Canadians keep their healthcare system, and leave us alone to choose ours. If you like waiting 10 months to get an MRI, then move to Canada. I prefer the option of getting one the same day I request one.
Public approval is much higher elsewhere because on average they are getting a much better deal.
Uh, no. It isn't a better deal. For me, I really don't want to be forced to pay into a system (at the point of a gun) that I won't be able to use when I need it. If I ever need an MRI, I would much prefer to pay out of pocket and get one that same day than to wait by the phone for 10 months hoping the one MRI clinic 500 miles away will call. Because in 10 months, the MRI will no longer matter.
If Bernie Sanders had had his recent heart attack in Canada, he would be dead right now.
It works better for more people and there are statistics to back that up.
Again, no. Statistics do not back that up. But if you really want statistics, then count the number of Canadian license plates you see at Seattle, Detroit, and Buffalo hospitals and tell me which system those people prefer.
All you have are anecdotes, which are worth nothing.
All you have is wishful thinking. Heck, when we provide you Bernie Sanders own words, statements, responses, and policies. You continue to insist that he really didn't mean it.
But if you really prefer a government-run monopoly over a free market, then by all means move to Canada.
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The Truth About Canadian Healthcare (from a Canadian)
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M0xPn07T8w#)
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No, they do not.
There's nothing to say other than that you're ignorant.
Sorry...
Don't need to. I can listen to real live Canadians complain about how bad their healthcare system is.
You can listen to real live anecdotes on Youtube?! Do you understand what an anecdote is? Do you understand the difference between that and actual statistics?
move to Canada.
I was wondering how long it would take. :silly:
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The Truth About Canadian Healthcare (from a Canadian)
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M0xPn07T8w#)
Again, all you have is anecdotes.
Yawn...
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Does Canada Do It Better? (John Stossel)
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA#)
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Does Canada Do It Better? (John Stossel)
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA#)
I'll take "anecdote" for $1000 Alex!
Got any more anecdotes from agenda driven Youtube channels?
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Global National - Canada has longest emergency room wait time according to study
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ6Szc3W3Y4#)
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Global National - Canada has longest emergency room wait time according to study
Since Canada is so terrible and the general public doesn't seem to realize it maybe we should consider doing it Scandinavian style instead, or maybe like the Germans. Got any propaganda loaded for their healthcare systems? Maybe Bernie could be talked into doing it like one of the other every single nations of Earth that has a national healthcare system. Or maybe all of those people are just wrong about how much they like their healthcare system compared to people in the U.S.
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A True Tale of Canadian Health Care: Why some patients need to go to the U.S. for surgery
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRPhltjPSFs#)
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Since Canada is so terrible and the general public doesn't seem to realize it maybe we should consider doing it Scandinavian style instead, or maybe like the Germans.
But that's not what Bernie Sanders is proposing.
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But that's not what Bernie Sanders is proposing.
That's what I am proposing. As I mentioned three times I don't take any of his words as gospel anyway. I just don't think he's a bad person.
So how about it Hoodat?
What about Scandinavia? And what about the rest of my post?
If you're on board with doing in Scandinavian style I'm sure Bernie can be reasoned with.
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That's what I am proposing.
So how about it Hoodat?
What about Scandinavia? And what about the rest of my post?
If you're on board with doing in Scandinavian style I'm sure Bernie can be reasoned with.
That's enough, Dexter. Nobody here is buying your shit, you know it and that makes you a troll now.
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I'll take "anecdote" for $1000 Alex!
Got any more anecdotes from agenda driven Youtube channels?
These anecdotes (from Canadians) directly contradict your bogus "public approval" claim. Now, about those statistics you claim to have. When do we get to see them?
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That's enough, Dexter. Nobody here is buying your shit, you know it and that makes you a troll now.
To be clear you're now telling me to stop making my arguments because you think I'm trolling? If that's how this place runs now you can go ahead and ban me. I am posting in one thread and people are choosing to engage with my opinion. I have been civil. Your statement and tone are uncalled for.
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These anecdotes (from Canadians) directly contradict your bogus "public approval" claim.
No they don't. The fact that you would even say an anecdote contradicts actual statistics demonstrates that you have no idea how this works.
I would like to move past Canadian healthcare and Bernie's healthcare plan now. You can think you won if you want.
I want to talk about Europe now.
Game?
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To be clear you're now telling me to stop making my arguments because you think I'm trolling? If that's how this place runs now you can go ahead and ban me.
You made your arguments. When you reach 15 times of telling, it's trolling. And you are not worth the spit of banning at this time. Promise you will go away if I do ban?
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All you have are anecdotes, which are worth nothing.
Please cite the other countries you have lived in, paid taxes in, used the health care system in.
I wrote a graduate economics paper, comparing the post WWII-economies of Communist East Germany, to Free-enterprise West Germany. (After living in West Germany). which of course was vastly superior. I note, at that time your bbeloved communist East Germany gunned down people trying to escape their "workers' paradise.
That is hardly a worthless anecdote.
Your personal experience is? Do you wash your Che Guevarra shirt, after each wearing?
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You made your arguments. When you reach 15 times of telling, it's trolling. And you are not worth the spit of banning at this time.
People argue their points into redundant oblivion on the regular. I am doing so cordially and I am keeping it in one thread. I am accusing you of having the position you do simply because you don't like what I am saying.
Promise you will go away if I do ban?
Once upon a time my presence here was respected and even approved of by a lot of posters, admin included. I don't know what kind of person you think I am, but all you really have to do is ask if you don't want me here anymore. I come here to argue with you because I disagree with you and sometimes I like barking at the moon. I don't argue with stupid people; that's why I like this place. If all of that is no longer tolerable to you and the people of this forum then I'll stop posting.
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That's what I am proposing.
Uh, no. You came here proposing we do what Bernie Sanders wanted to do. First, how about an acknowledgement from you admitting that you were wrong about Sanders and do not support what he wants to do? (e.g. single payer, outlawing private insurance, putting everyone on Medicare, etc.)
As I mentioned three times I don't take any of his words as gospel anyway.
This is the part I struggle with. Bernie Sanders was asked point blank on Twitter if he was going to do away with private insurance. And with the private luxury to formulate a response in his own time, he blurts out 'Hell Yes!'. Yet you continue to excuse it by saying, 'Aw shucks, I'm sure he really didn't mean it', even though he triple-downed on it. What this tells me is that 'truth' really doesn't matter to you. You have a desire for Bernie to be right, even if that means ignoring who Bernie really is.
So how about it Hoodat?
What about Scandinavia? And what about the rest of my post?
Sorry, can't get on board with any system that takes my freedom away. My position remains unchanged. Get government the hell out of the health care industry.
If you're on board with doing in Scandinavian style I'm sure Bernie can be reasoned with.
You clearly do not understand how totalitarians operate. He has had his entire life to study Scandinavian-style healthcare, yet he soundly rejects it. He prefers the Canadian system, with the exception of outlawing private insurance. (Of course he and his fellow politburo members will have their own special system for themselves).
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No they don't. The fact that you would even say an anecdote contradicts actual statistics demonstrates that you have no idea how this works.
Are you talking about the statistics that you have failed to provide? Those statistics?
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That is hardly a worthless anecdote.
All anecdotes are kind of worthless if we're having a discussion about statistics and averages.
Your personal experience is?
My personal experience is also a worthless anecdote.
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Sorry, can't get on board with any system that takes my freedom away. My position remains unchanged. Get government the hell out of the health care industry.
Will you at least throw me a bone and admit that you just don't care about the fact that countries with national healthcare systems are much happier with their healthcare on average? I'll concede everything else if you just admit that.
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OK, enough. Locked.
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All anecdotes are kind of worthless if we're having a discussion about statistics and averages.
Statiscially the average person has one tit, and one testicle.
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Once upon a time my presence here was respected and even approved of by a lot of posters
Still is @Dexter
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So what do we do with the healthcare staff that’s already paid a lot for school and still have a lot of student loans?
It would seem to be their turn in the barrel.
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Since Canada is so terrible and the general public doesn't seem to realize it maybe we should consider doing it Scandinavian style instead, or maybe like the Germans. Got any propaganda loaded for their healthcare systems? Maybe Bernie could be talked into doing it like one of the other every single nations of Earth that has a national healthcare system. Or maybe all of those people are just wrong about how much they like their healthcare system compared to people in the U.S.
None of the above. The federal government has no business in healthcare at all. It is unconstitutional.
Let the states respectively figure out what they want to do... That s the beauty of the American way.
That which works best would be copied where it will work also, and where it won't work other states will do otherwise. No need for one-size-fits-all (which is the first damn lie) federally imposed solutions.
Government is never the answer.
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Let the states respectively figure out what they want to do... That s the beauty of the American way.
I like it when we can agree on things. I'll deviate from typical "socialists" now with my opinion that we should be kicking in the kneecaps of the federal government and giving everything back to the states. The United States has approximately the same population and land mass of all of western Europe. That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation. States should operate like they are their own countries. If that happened and states could truly do things their own way, the free market of ideas would show us what can work and what can't. If one state is kicking ass while others are really struggling people will want to emulate the one that's doing well. Right now we're all just stepping all over each other and nothing gets done. Everybody is frustrated.
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I like it when we can agree on things. I'll deviate from typical "socialists" now with my opinion that we should be kicking in the kneecaps of the federal government and giving everything back to the states. The United States has approximately the same population and land mass of all of western Europe. That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation. States should operate like they are their own countries. If that happened and states could truly do things their own way, the free market of ideas would show us what can work and what can't. If one state is kicking ass while others are really struggling people will want to emulate the one that's doing well. Right now we're all just stepping all over each other and nothing gets done. Everybody is frustrated.
BRAVO! :beer:
The way there is not through nationalizing 1/7th of the American economy. You get one or the other.
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BRAVO! :beer:
The way there is not through nationalizing 1/7th of the American economy. You get one or the other.
There's a problem though Roamer...
I'm trying to work within the reality that exists when I float the idea that maybe some kind of national healthcare system would be tolerable and make things better.
Uncle Sam isn't going to give that power back. Of course it would be best that way, but can we really get there? For example do any of you really think Texas could secede from the union? Uncle Sam would start murdering people by the millions if necessary. We are trapped. I sometimes show support for nationalism because I see globalism as the biggest enemy, but in truth if we won that fight I'd start fighting nation power with state power, and then state power with county power. I hate the government as much as or more than any of you. They won though. They have really big guns and they're not afraid to use them. What do we do? Voting helps but ultimately it's an illusion in the sense that there's no freaking way the fed will let go of power peacefully.
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I'm trying to work within the reality that exists when I float the idea that maybe some kind of national healthcare system would be tolerable and make things better.
Dexter, you seem like a passionate young man for your issue, but the crust of the whole problem is that we conservatives, and those who saved, skimped, and invested for a rainy day are getting sick and tired of subsidizing the entitlement class.
It's bad enough we have to fund the slugs who have their lips hermetically sealed on the left hind teat of Uncle Sugar. Now those same entitlement slugs and their socialist enablers want to invoke their will on what is most important of all..... Our health and the health of our loved ones. I have what Obama called a Cadillac Health Plan, because of the seiousness of what is important (above) and protection of what I have saved. When POS socialist want to take that away, you can see why some of us get pretty upset when we hear misguided views like yours.
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Let the states respectively figure out what they want to do... That s the beauty of the American way
I agree
If Vermont wants a universal healthcare plan, then let them have it. However, states have tried and found out that their citizens either rejected it or they simply couldn’t afford it. Even Mr Sanders has no way to pay for his plan
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Will you at least throw me a bone and admit that you just don't care about the fact that countries with national healthcare systems are much happier with their healthcare on average? I'll concede everything else if you just admit that.
My wife grew up in England under the NHS. She's much happier with the American system.
My Brit in-laws, all four of them, have private insurance as well as the national system.
Why would they need private insurance if their NHS was so great and encompassing?
In France, even with their national plan, it is mandatory for adults to purchase private insurance to supplement the national plan.
Again, if the national plan is so great, why do they mandate private insurance supplemental coverage?
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I like it when we can agree on things. I'll deviate from typical "socialists" now with my opinion that we should be kicking in the kneecaps of the federal government and giving everything back to the states. The United States has approximately the same population and land mass of all of western Europe. That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation. States should operate like they are their own countries. If that happened and states could truly do things their own way, the free market of ideas would show us what can work and what can't. If one state is kicking ass while others are really struggling people will want to emulate the one that's doing well. Right now we're all just stepping all over each other and nothing gets done. Everybody is frustrated.
Amendment X of the U.S. Constitution:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
States do have certain rights. If you are suggesting that the FEDS have taken certain powers away from the states, I would agree. There have been suggestions of calling a Convention of States; Article V. That call has come close, but has not succeeded and in a climate where the state legislators have become more liberal, that would be extremely risky.
There is a reason for the U.S. Constitution and to blatantly ignore and not adhere to the Constitution has proven to be detrimental.
The Senate, House and the Executive branch each have their own powers and limitations for a reason.
Ted Cruz proposed allowing health care to be sold across state lines.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/06/05/ted-cruz-s-hope-for-selling-health-insurance-across-state-lines-gets-second-look-in-aca-overhaul/ (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/06/05/ted-cruz-s-hope-for-selling-health-insurance-across-state-lines-gets-second-look-in-aca-overhaul/)
Obamacare was a plan that was shoved down our throats -- though it was ruled constitutional -- it was in the eyes of many unconstitutional and turned out to be a disaster.
https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=34 (https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=34)
Obviously bills have to be passed in both the House and the Senate and signed by the President in order to become law.
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@libertybele
Ted Cruz proposed allowing health care to be sold across state lines.
I was involved in negotiating insurance for my company and the issue across state lines is the tort laws and insurance requirements vary between states, that is also why the rates are different.
I don't believe congress can fix this and it may be we just have to live with it.
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@libertybele
I was involved in negotiating insurance for my company and the issue across state lines is the tort laws and insurance requirements vary between states, that is also why the rates are different.
I don't believe congress can fix this and it may be we just have to live with it.
Thank you, I was not aware of that.
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I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.
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I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.
Well, I suspect I will not be alone in making sure Sam gets a belly ache..
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I think it's only a matter of time until Uncle Sam completely swallows the states, and again only a matter of time until globalism does the same to the U.S. It's hard to envision another outcome even though I wish I could.
Then why, in heaven's name are you here on a Conservative board (where we all know better) fighting hard for the Government to take over our minds, our bodies and our souls by controlling health care??
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Then why, in heaven's name are you here on a Conservative board (where we all know better) fighting hard for the Government to take over our minds, our bodies and our souls by controlling health care??
You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.
If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.
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The vast majority of Republicans don't actually stand for smaller government. Us libertarian leaning types have no real representation in government. I guess I just don't have the will to fight that futile fight. I respect those of you that will go down swinging, but I will try to make the best of a bad situation instead.
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Well, I suspect I will not be alone in making sure Sam gets a belly ache..
Uncle Sam will crush you effortlessly, and any amount of retaliatory damage you inflict will only take the lives of young people caught up in a mess they didn't start and didn't want.
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Uncle Sam will crush you effortlessly, and any amount of retaliatory damage you inflict will only take the lives of young people caught up in a mess they didn't start and didn't want.
So we should all just sit here quietly and take our medicine that we did not start and did not want?
I have the same rights you have, it is up to you to fight for yours....
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So we should all just sit here quietly and take our medicine that we did not start and did not want?
I have the same rights you have, it is up to you to fight for yours....
I'm not a martyr. I'm going to live and enjoy my life, not die pointlessly while trying to dodge drones in a forest.
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I'm not a martyr. I'm going to live and enjoy my life, not die pointlessly while trying to dodge drones in a forest.
Take notes....
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY#)
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Take notes....
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY#)
I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.
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I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.
@Dexter
Just meeting your grandkids is not enough, it is what you leave them.
Anyone can make babies, it is more important to leave them a country that they can give to their kids.
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There's a problem though Roamer...
I'm trying to work within the reality that exists when I float the idea that maybe some kind of national healthcare system would be tolerable and make things better.
Uncle Sam isn't going to give that power back. Of course it would be best that way, but can we really get there? For example do any of you really think Texas could secede from the union? Uncle Sam would start murdering people by the millions if necessary. We are trapped. I sometimes show support for nationalism because I see globalism as the biggest enemy, but in truth if we won that fight I'd start fighting nation power with state power, and then state power with county power. I hate the government as much as or more than any of you. They won though. They have really big guns and they're not afraid to use them. What do we do? Voting helps but ultimately it's an illusion in the sense that there's no freaking way the fed will let go of power peacefully.
Aw c'mon now... That is wholly disingenuous.
There is NO WAY one can hold both ideas in grand acceptance at the same time. I cry bullcrap.
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Aw c'mon now... That is wholly disingenuous.
There is NO WAY one can hold both ideas in grand acceptance at the same time. I cry bullcrap.
I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.
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I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.
Possibly the most gutless post of the thread.
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You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.
If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.
There is a huge difference between those of us who debate issues of Conservatism and you, who are here advocating a government takeover of healthcare and boasting about the benefits of socialism.
To put us in the same category is at the very least disingenuous.
The fact that the DNC doesn’t want to openly run a Communist is neither here nor there.
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I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy. I can understand and agree with two sides of an argument. The world is complicated Roamer. I do think you're right, but I think you're going to lose, and I'm not going to fight with you brother. I've got too much to live for.
No without liberty you don't... So much for these (brilliant) words:
"That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation." - @Dexter
Sooner or later, you gotta draw a hard line.
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You all argue with each other and it's equally futile. Why are you here? Why are any of us? We just want to bark at the moon.
If the government is going to win anyway I at least want our young people to have easier access to education and our old people to not have to worry about losing everything over a treatable ailment. People like Bernie aren't your enemy. There's a reason why he's all alone, and it's similar to the reason why Trump is all alone. It's because he's actually fighting for people. Our corporate run government isn't about that life. The DNC would ignore the vote and run Joe Biden anyway if Bernie got more delegates. They'd never let that man represent their party. The race was over before it began, and I think underneath it all Bernie probably suspects that.
You said it. "Libertarian". Dr. Ron Paul is considered a libertarian, yet he was very much an advocate for following the Constitution -- I have no problem with following the Constitution. He was also a proponent for smaller government. In his eyes, he saw that government is expanding, taxes are increasing, and basic freedoms are disappearing. He is correct.
You can't have socialized medicine without increasing the size of government period.
He also pointed out the problem long ago with our 'monetary' association with China. He was correct. Trump tried in part to correct that; look now at the present day threat from China. Expanding government (socialism) didn't work.
Look you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to post here. Don't expect the majority of us in here to ever be convinced that socialism in any way, shape or form, will be better. In fact, most of us are fighting for our politicians to adhere to the Constitution and to get back to the very principles upon which this country was founded. Socialized medicine just doesn't fit that criteria. We are a REPUBLIC period.
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I don't see the world in black and white. Sometimes there is conflict in my own philosophy.
How can you recognize a conflict in your own philosophy when you are incapable of recognizing 'truth'?
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I would like to meet my grandchildren someday.
or.....
"Better Red, than Dead."
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No without liberty you don't... So much for these (brilliant) words:
"That's way too many people separated by way too much space and culture to have one umbrella calling shots for everybody. You might be surprised by the extremes I would go to in this conversation." - @Dexter
Sooner or later, you gotta draw a hard line.
I've already drawn my line.
I would go to and agree with extremes while talking about it, and would follow through with those words if there wasn't an extremely powerful government that would kill me first. That's not the case though.
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I've already drawn my line.
I would go to and agree with extremes while talking about it, and would follow through with those words if there wasn't an extremely powerful government that would kill me first. That's not the case though.
Nah... I don't buy it. *****rollingeyes*****
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There is a huge difference between those of us who debate issues of Conservatism and you, who are here advocating a government takeover of healthcare and boasting about the benefits of socialism.
To put us in the same category is at the very least disingenuous.
The fact that the DNC doesn’t want to openly run a Communist is neither here nor there.
My point is you're not accomplishing anything here either. And actually now that I think about it I have gained things from this place. My perspective has become much more nuanced than it was 10 years ago, and this forum is part of that. You might not see what I have learned from you, but that doesn't mean I haven't. I'll never be like you. I can still benefit from our discussions though.
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or.....
"Better Red, than Dead."
I love my life. I have a son and a girlfriend that loves me. I have a good job and get to travel all over the world whenever the hell I want. I'm not going to put my life at risk unnecessarily. To some extent I suppose what you've said is accurate, but it's not that cut and dry. I can still enjoy my life regardless of how this goes down. I refuse to fight.
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Don't expect the majority of us in here to ever be convinced
Never have and never will. It seems more like some of y'all are salty that you're not having any success changing my mind either. I'm good with it. Are you?
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Nah... I don't buy it. *****rollingeyes*****
So what's my angle Roamer? You tell me.
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@Dexter
Just meeting your grandkids is not enough, it is what you leave them.
Anyone can make babies, it is more important to leave them a country that they can give to their kids.
My grandkids will live in a world with technological marvels beyond my comprehension.
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Possibly the most gutless post of the thread.
Sorry to disappoint you.
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Sorry to disappoint you.
I'm not disappointed in the least. Nope. I suppose I would be if you pretended to be anything other than a left-winged socialist. :shrug:
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I'm not disappointed in the least. Nope. I suppose I would be if you pretended to be anything other than a left-winged socialist. :shrug:
Not just a left-winged socialist, but a left-winged socialist that doesn't know (nor want to know) what Bernie Sanders stands for.
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a left-winged socialist. :shrug:
One that would vote for Donald Trump or Ron/Rand Paul. :shrug:
How many socialists do you know that would do that?
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One that would vote for Donald Trump or Ron/Rand Paul. :shrug:
So you say.
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So you say.
What exactly would I have to gain by lying? You've seen me make strong arguments in support of them; I mean it. Maybe I'm just not like the partisan clowns you're used to engaging with.
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I love my life. I have a son and a girlfriend that loves me. I have a good job and get to travel all over the world whenever the hell I want. I'm not going to put my life at risk unnecessarily. To some extent I suppose what you've said is accurate, but it's not that cut and dry. I can still enjoy my life regardless of how this goes down. I refuse to fight.
Obviously you feel that socialism won't have a negative impact on your life. For some of us, it is watching the America that we hold dear becoming an America whose decline is detrimental; not only to our country but to the world.
Great movie I recommend for you to see, if you haven't already:
"America: Imagine the World Without Her".
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What exactly would I have to gain by lying?
Safety. It protects you from having to actually think. Your emotions can remain intact as long as your beliefs remain unchallenged by truth.
As an example, take a look at your whole Bernie Sanders love crush. You embraced Sanders as an advocate of Scandinavian socialism. Yet after half a dozen contrasts were repeatedly pointed out to you between Sanders position and the Scandinavian model, you still could not bring yourself to acknowledge those discrepancies, admit the shortcomings of your argument, and reassess your position. That in itself reflects a substantial degree of dishonesty.
Of course you could correct all that now by taking the steps above. But I suspect you are incapable of doing so, lest your emotional stances be altered. We'll see how you respond. Maybe you will surprise us, but I am not holding my breath.
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Obviously you feel that socialism won't have a negative impact on your life.
I want to complain about the way y'all are debating for a moment.
I have expressed probably half a dozen times now that I don't actually think socialism is possible in the year 2020. It probably won't be possible in the year 2040 either. What I did say is that I believe given enough time we will be bottle-necked into it by a combination of technology and government. What's the timeline? I don't know. It's just my prediction for the future. I also said I have disagreements with Bernie Sanders.
However y'all have repeatedly talked to me as if I am some communist Bernie acolyte simply because I don't disagree with everything he says and don't think he's a bad man. It feels petty, like you just want to take that shot knowing I'm not going to like it. I'm not trying to provoke any of you, yet you deliberately disparage me with inaccurate and unfair labels. God forbid I not be wholly on one side or the other.
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Safety. It protects you from having to actually think. Your emotions can remain intact as long as your beliefs remain unchallenged by truth.
As an example, take a look at your whole Bernie Sanders love crush. You embraced Sanders as an advocate of Scandinavian socialism. Yet after half a dozen contrasts were repeatedly pointed out to you between Sanders position and the Scandinavian model, you still could not bring yourself to acknowledge those discrepancies, admit the shortcomings of your argument, and reassess your position. That in itself reflects a substantial degree of dishonesty.
Of course you could correct all that now by taking the steps above. But I suspect you are incapable of doing so, lest your emotional stances be altered. We'll see how you respond. Maybe you will surprise us, but I am not holding my breath.
I think you're ignorant about some things and that you're refusing to debate fairly/honestly. I already told you we'll never see eye to eye on the point you're obsessed with driving home. I'm not interested anymore. You win Hoodat. You're not going to pull me back in. I'm bored. If you've got a different angle you're interested in tossing my way I'll reevaluate whether or not I'm interested in debating with you.
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However y'all have repeatedly talked to me as if I am some communist Bernie acolyte simply because I don't disagree with everything he says and don't think he's a bad man.
Again, my issue is that you came here advocating Bernie Sanders for proposing Scandinavian socialism when the fact is that he does no such thing. Your refusal to acknowledge that simple truth is a huge stumbling block for me. I really don't care about how you 'feel'. All I care about is 'truth'. Because without it, there is no standard for discussion.
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Again, my issue is that you came here advocating Bernie Sanders for proposing Scandinavian socialism when the fact is that he does no such thing. Your refusal to acknowledge that simple truth is a huge stumbling block for me. I really don't care about how you 'feel'. All I care about is 'truth'. Because without it, there is no standard for discussion.
If you honestly in your heart see no connection between Bernie's philosophy and that of Europe/Scandinavia then we have nothing more to talk about. You're having trouble letting go and accepting that we can't resolve that disagreement. I have moved on.
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I think you're ignorant about a lot of things and that you're refusing to debate fairly/honestly. I already told you we'll never see eye to eye on the point you're obsessed with driving home. I'm not interested anymore. You win Hoodat. You're not going to pull me back in. I'm bored. If you've got a different angle you're interested in tossing my way I'll reevaluate whether or not I'm interested in debating with you.
Really? Let's review, shall we? On more than one occasion, you have claimed to have statistics that back up your assertion that socialized medicine is better. Yet I have asked you to provide these statistics multiple times, all of which have been ignored. And now you question my honesty and fairness? Please.
I already told you we'll never see eye to eye on the point you're obsessed with driving home.
I am not asking you to see eye to eye. I am only asking you to accept the obvious truth that Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance which goes against the Scandinavian model. You can embrace Sanders' position or you can reject it. I really don't care which one you choose. All I ask is that you stop lying about it and accept it for what it is.
You win Hoodat.
No. Truth wins. Critical thought wins. Being able to back up your position with actual facts wins. All three of which you have failed to do.
I'm bored.
If you are really bored, then rise to the challenge. Use your brain. Apply critical thought. Back up your position with facts rather than emotion. It can be quite invigorating for you. But you're not bored. You are simply afraid.
If you've got a different angle you're interested in tossing my way I'll reevaluate whether or not I'm interested in debating with you.
I already did. You completely ignored it. Repeatedly.
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Really? Let's review, shall we? On more than one occasion, you have claimed to have statistics that back up your assertion that socialized medicine is better. Yet I have asked you to provide these statistics multiple times, all of which have been ignored. And now you question my honesty and fairness? Please.
I am not asking you to see eye to eye. I am only asking you to accept the obvious truth that Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance which goes against the Scandinavian model. You can embrace Sanders' position or you can reject it. I really don't care which one you choose. All I ask is that you stop lying about it and accept it for what it is.
No. Truth wins. Critical thought wins. Being able to back up your position with actual facts wins. All three of which you have failed to do.
If you are really bored, then rise to the challenge. Use your brain. Apply critical thought. Back up your position with facts rather than emotion. It can be quite invigorating for you. But you're not bored. You are simply afraid.
I already did. You completely ignored it. Repeatedly.
Okay. Are we done now?
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If you honestly in your heart see no connection between Bernie's philosophy and that of Europe/Scandinavia then we have nothing more to talk about.
If you honestly in your brain see no contrast with Scandinavian private insurance and Bernie Sanders position to eliminate private insurance, then there is nothing honest about your brain. Which explains why your feelings trump 'truth'.
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If you honestly in your brain see no contrast with Scandinavian private insurance and Bernie Sanders position to eliminate private insurance, then there is nothing honest about your brain. Which explains why your feelings trump 'truth'.
:thumbsup:
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Okay. Are we done now?
We were done back when you first show up lying about what Bernie Sanders stood for. My only curiosity at this point is whether you still support Sanders' position or instead reject his position in favor of what Scandinavia does. But I seriously doubt that you possess the integrity to draw that contrast and formulate a truthful answer.
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We were done back when you first show up lying about what Bernie Sanders stood for. My only curiosity at this point is whether you still support Sanders' position or instead reject his position in favor of what Scandinavia does. But I seriously doubt that you possess the integrity to draw that contrast and formulate a truthful answer.
Okay. You've had the last debate words like 3 times now. I'm not interested anymore.
Congratulations on your victory.
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Like I said, lack the integrity.
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I love my life. I have a son and a girlfriend that loves me. I have a good job and get to travel all over the world whenever the hell I want. I'm not going to put my life at risk unnecessarily. To some extent I suppose what you've said is accurate, but it's not that cut and dry. I can still enjoy my life regardless of how this goes down. I refuse to fight.
Commie-pinko Bernie operative. From Russian troll-factory?
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Commie-pinko Bernie operative. From Russian troll-factory?
I'm a commie-pinko because at the end of the day I wouldn't throw my life away over some of my rights being stolen?
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I'm a commie-pinko because at the end of the day I wouldn't throw my life away over some of my rights being stolen?
Hate to break it to you son, but you’re here cheering on the removal of your rights AND your life.
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Hate to break it to you son, but you’re here cheering on the removal of your rights AND your life.
Which one of my constitutional rights am I cheering for the removal of?
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Which one of my constitutional rights am I cheering for the removal of?
Why don’t you first tell me which rights you’ve proclaimed you don’t mind being stolen?
Your high school debating technique is not nearly as clever as you think it is.
Your deceit is as transparent as Saran Wrap...
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Why don’t you first tell me which rights you’ve proclaimed you don’t mind being stolen?
Your high school debating technique is not nearly as clever as you think it is.
Your deceit is as transparent as Saran Wrap...
Yet several here continue to engage him. **nononono*
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Yet several here continue to engage him. **nononono*
Oops! I guess that would be me! wink777
Bye, @Dexter! We win. You lose!
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Oops! I guess that would be me! wink777
Bye, @Dexter! We win. You lose!
I thought he already gave up, so I was busy doing other things, like laundry. 333cleo 333cleo
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Which one of my constitutional rights am I cheering for the removal of?
Actually, it's our rights you are interested in abridging. I could make a list, but the washing machine is calling me to move the loads around.
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I thought he already gave up, so I was busy doing other things, like laundry. 333cleo 333cleo
There's nothing more important than clean clothes!
Hope you ironed as well. wink777
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There's nothing more important than clean clothes!
Hope you ironed as well. wink777
Not this time, but I will be next time 'cause I have to wear a suit to the GOP Liberty Day dinner/fundraiser tomorrow night! (I iron my own shirts. I'd never fob that job off.)
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Not this time, but I will be next time 'cause I have to wear a suit to the GOP Liberty Day dinner/fundraiser tomorrow night! (I iron my own shirts. I'd never fob that job off.)
That’s a good boy!
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That’s a good boy!
Today is linens day. Just stripped and re-made the bed....
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Today is linens day. Just stripped and re-made the bed....
Well I gotta admit, even changing beds is more interesting than this argument has become. *****rollingeyes*****
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(I iron my own shirts. I'd never fob that job off.)
I may be the only person in America who enjoys ironing. My mother taught me to do it on a mangle (!), but there certainly is satisfaction in seeing a wrinkled item become crisp, pressed and presentable.
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Well I gotta admit, even changing beds is more interesting than this argument has become. *****rollingeyes*****
pointing-up
Later, we're driving down the GOP HQ to haul a bunch of boxes of raffle and silent auction items for tomorrow night's fundraiser in Laughlin. We're living the dream here....
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I may be the only person in America who enjoys ironing. My mother taught me to do it on a mangle (!), but there certainly is satisfaction in seeing a wrinkled item become crisp, pressed and presentable.
I don't often wear the dress shirts these days, but when I do, I'm presentable. wink777
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pointing-up
Later, we're driving down the GOP HQ to haul a bunch of boxes of raffle and silent auction items for tomorrow night's fundraiser in Laughlin. We're living the dream here....
:silly:
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I may be the only person in America who enjoys ironing. My mother taught me to do it on a mangle (!), but there certainly is satisfaction in seeing a wrinkled item become crisp, pressed and presentable.
This may be TMI, but when I was a kid one of my jobs was the ironing. That included the sheets and my Dad’s boxer shorts.
I still hate ironing! happy77
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Why don’t you first tell me which rights you’ve proclaimed you don’t mind being stolen?
You're gas lighting me right now; you do that a lot. I said I wouldn't die for them, not that I wouldn't mind.
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I could make a list
How about you start with one right that I am cheering for the removal of?
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You're gas lighting me right now; you do that a lot. I said I wouldn't die for them, not that I wouldn't mind.
You watch too many movies.
And play silly games.
Not playing any more.
You're ineducable.
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How about you start with one right that I am cheering for the removal of?
The right to purchase insurance for one. Or are you finally ready to distance yourself from the health care system that Bernie Sanders espouses?
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How about you start with one right that I am cheering for the removal of?
Sorry...I was stuffing pillowcases....
It's O/T, but I'll bet you would not agree with my right to carry a concealed pistol without a "permit."
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Bernie: 'We Must Seize The Means Of Toilet Paper Production'
March 13th, 2020
(https://babylonbee.com/img/articles/article-5761-2.jpg)
BURLINGTON, VT—In a video message recorded from one of his many, many houses, Bernie Sanders has called on the workers of the world to unite and seize the means of toilet paper production.
Sanders was under quarantine because he is old and susceptible to the virus. So he delivered the message remotely, but it was just as powerful as if he had delivered it to thousands of Bernie bros in person: "Workers of the world, unite and seize the means of producing bath tissue in large quantities!"
<..snip..>
https://babylonbee.com/news/bernie-we-must-seize-the-means-of-toilet-paper-production?utm_source=whatfinger (https://babylonbee.com/news/bernie-we-must-seize-the-means-of-toilet-paper-production?utm_source=whatfinger)
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I may be the only person in America who enjoys ironing. My mother taught me to do it on a mangle (!), but there certainly is satisfaction in seeing a wrinkled item become crisp, pressed and presentable.
I can't remember the last time that I ironed anything. Most fabrics these days are wrinkle forgiving. I don't iron my t-shirts, tank tops and shorts, nor my jeans and long sleeved blouses when cooler weather is here.
I do however remember growing up and having an "Ironrite" /sp ? It was an iron that with a big roller that you sat in front of and it was controlled with a lever by your knees. I thought it was a pain -- I got stuck ironing sheets and pillowcases. Seriously -- does anyone still ironsheets and pillowcases?? I finally scorched a few blouses and that was the end of my ironing chores. :laugh:
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I can't remember the last time that I ironed anything. Most fabrics these days are wrinkle forgiving. I don't iron my t-shirts, tank tops and shorts, nor my jeans and long sleeved blouses when cooler weather is here.
I do however remember growing up and having an "Ironrite" /sp ? It was an iron that with a big roller that you sat in front of and it was controlled with a lever by your knees. I thought it was a pain -- I got stuck ironing sheets and pillowcases. Seriously -- does anyone still ironsheets and pillowcases?? I finally scorched a few blouses and that was the end of my ironing chores. :laugh:
Oh, man! I shoulda thought of that!! :laugh:
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Oh, man! I shoulda thought of that!! :laugh:
I only iron the dress shirts that I wear with a suit (which means I'll have one to iron this weekend). I can keep the rest wrinkle-free by hanging them up in the Castle Sauna. It's across the Master Bedroom from the Jacuzzi the cats took over. :shrug:
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It's O/T, but I'll bet you would not agree with my right to carry a concealed pistol without a "permit."
You must have missed where I more than once said I'm a big supporter of the second amendment and take issue with Bernie over it. I consider it a big part of our culture and I think the more you regulate guns the more you empower the black market and crime. Y'all are gaslighting me right now over what I've said about rights.
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You must have missed where I more than once said I'm a big supporter of the second amendment and take issue with Bernie over it. I consider it a big part of our culture and I think the more you regulate guns the more you empower the black market and crime. Y'all are gaslighting me right now over what I've said about rights.
I agree: News to me. "Gaslighting?" Well, if you say so. tri22
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I only iron the dress shirts that I wear with a suit (which means I'll have one to iron this weekend). I can keep the rest wrinkle-free by hanging them up in the Castle Sauna. It's across the Master Bedroom from the Jacuzzi the cats took over. :shrug:
Lol!!
I only iron when absolutely necessary.
With a t shirt a dab of water and hanging them up does the trick.
(Or a sauna if I had one!)
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Oh, man! I shoulda thought of that!! :laugh:
Well, before that when I was about seven, my grandma had me ironing and as I was reaching for the next item to be ironed I accidentally burnt my elbow with the iron resting on the ironing board. I didn't have to iron for awhile. I still have the scar.
As for the other project .... I honestly wasn't paying attention and was trying to figure out how my mother was able to watch two soap operas on two different tvs at once and iron! I think she had on the Edge of Night and the Secret Storm. Anyways ... it worked out in my favor.
I just wasn't meant to iron. :laugh:
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I'm a commie-pinko because at the end of the day I wouldn't throw my life away over some of my rights being stolen?
And that attitude, my friend @Dexter, is why this country will fall.
I have a hard time deciding if you really believe what you say or....you just like to stir the pot. :tongue2:
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Well, before that when I was about seven, my grandma had me ironing and as I was reaching for the next item to be ironed I accidentally burnt my elbow with the iron resting on the ironing board. I didn't have to iron for awhile. I still have the scar.
As for the other project .... I honestly wasn't paying attention and was trying to figure out how my mother was able to watch two soap operas on two different tvs at once and iron! I think she had on the Edge of Night and the Secret Storm. Anyways ... it worked out in my favor.
I just wasn't meant to iron. :laugh:
Wow! Your Mom and my Mom watched the same two soaps! (I even bought her an Edge of Night nightshirt when I got older!)
When I ironed, I think I watched the Millionaire, Loretta Young and Wagon Train! happy77
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Wow! Your Mom and my Mom watched the same two soaps! (I even bought her an Edge of Night nightshirt when I got older!)
When I ironed, I think I watched the Millionaire, Loretta Young and Wagon Train! happy77
888high58888 I liked Gunsmoke and Rawhide too!
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I must be weird. I watch myself iron.
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888high58888 I liked Gunsmoke and Rawhide too!
Me too!
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I do however remember growing up and having an "Ironrite" /sp ? It was an iron that with a big roller that you sat in front of and it was controlled with a lever by your knees.
That's it, the Ironrite is a mangle. My mother did the sheets, but my sister and I learned how to do my father's dress shirts and just about anything else that needed ironing. I thought it was great fun. We ended up donating the mangle to the Pittsburgh Opera so they could easily iron their costumes.
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I must be weird. I watch myself iron.
I’m too boring. happy77
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That's it, the Ironrite is a mangle. My mother did the sheets, but my sister and I learned how to do my father's dress shirts and just about anything else that needed ironing. I thought it was great fun. We ended up donating the mangle to the Pittsburgh Opera so they could easily iron their costumes.
Oh..... I thought you were going to say so they could use it as a prop! wink777
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you really believe what you say or....you just like to stir the pot. :tongue2:
Yes. :laugh:
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Oh..... I thought you were going to say so they could use it as a prop! wink777
You could throw a tablecloth over it and use it as a piece of furniture, I suppose.
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And that attitude, my friend @Dexter, is why this country will fall.
It's a futile struggle. Death is guaranteed. Saying otherwise is basically saying "I'd commit suicide if the government tried to take my rights away."
Not me, sorry. I value life too much.
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You could throw a tablecloth over it and use it as a piece of furniture, I suppose.
Do you have a picture of what it looked like?
I think I know, but I’m not sure.....
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And to be frank I think I'm just being more honest than a lot of you. I think if the rubber hit the road most of you would make the same choice. It's just easy to talk that big game on a message board.
Or you'd just send off young people to die for you and put a support the troops bumper sticker on your car.
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It's a futile struggle. Death is guaranteed. Saying otherwise is basically saying "I'd commit suicide if the government tried to take my rights away."
Not me, sorry. I value life too much.
You value some life, apparently. Not all.
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Do you have a picture of what it looked like?
I think I know, but I’m not sure.....
I got this photo off eBay. It looks pretty much like our old one.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YdIAAOSwtNFbEBc-/s-l1600.jpg)
This is what it looked like with the lid closed.
(https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/5/4/2/7/webimg/402859323_o.jpg)
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I got this photo off eBay. It looks pretty much like our old one.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YdIAAOSwtNFbEBc-/s-l1600.jpg)
This is what it looked like with the lid closed.
(https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/3/5/5/4/2/7/webimg/402859323_o.jpg)
OK............. the upper picture is what I was thinking of.
But it would be a pretty big prop, and pretty hard to move on and off the stage. happy77
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And to be frank I think I'm just being more honest than a lot of you. I think if the rubber hit the road most of you would make the same choice. It's just easy to talk that big game on a message board.
Or you'd just send off young people to die for you and put a support the troops bumper sticker on your car.
@Dexter
You just crossed the line of being tolerated.
Have you any idea how many people on this board have put their necks on the line for the likes of you..... pos
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@Dexter
You just crossed the line of being tolerated.
Have you any idea how many people on this board have put their necks on the line for the likes of you..... pos
I was in the military too and it's why I feel the way I do about it.
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I was in the military too and it's why I feel the way I do about it.
@Dexter
You’re too young to be so pessimistic. You have to get older, crotchety, and cynical like us older farts before becoming a pessimist
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There are Women here that have made the most sacrifice of all, their husbands and sons.
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There are Women here that have made the most sacrifice of all, their husbands and sons.
:amen: 8888crybaby
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So what's my angle Roamer? You tell me.
Beats me about your motive. And I don't really care as of yet...
It's this new philosophical creature that has me curious... One that can preach glorious libertarianism and federalism out of one side of his mouth and then preach the scourge of socialized medicine and statism out the other.
It boggles me.
Makes me want to poke at ya with a stick, which is the typical redneck reaction to curious things... Except dead beavers (long story)... Won't do that again.
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I'm a commie-pinko because at the end of the day I wouldn't throw my life away over some of my rights being stolen?
Ahh... There it is... The weakness in the logic process... The false sense of security cripples determination... A lack of resolve.
See Venezuela.
Them that would trade liberty for security deserve neither (and will likely receive neither).
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Well, before that when I was about seven, my grandma had me ironing and as I was reaching for the next item to be ironed I accidentally burnt my elbow with the iron resting on the ironing board. I didn't have to iron for awhile. I still have the scar.
As for the other project .... I honestly wasn't paying attention and was trying to figure out how my mother was able to watch two soap operas on two different tvs at once and iron! I think she had on the Edge of Night and the Secret Storm. Anyways ... it worked out in my favor.
I just wasn't meant to iron. :laugh:
@libertybele @musiclady @Cyber Liberty thanx for the ironing tips ladies. I'm a man. When my shirts need ironing I throw it in the dryer for 5 minutes...or wait...I think when my clothes are dirty I throw them in the dryer...yes, now I remember "warm = clean."
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Not this time, but I will be next time 'cause I have to wear a suit to the GOP Liberty Day dinner/fundraiser tomorrow night! (I iron my own shirts. I'd never fob that job off.)
I haven't owned a suit in decades... nor anything that needs ironing. Canvas, flannel, denim and cotton.
I DO have an iron though. I use it to steam dents out of wood.
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I haven't owned a suit in decades... nor anything that needs ironing. Canvas, flannel, denim and cotton.
I DO have an iron though. I use it to steam dents out of wood.
It works as a cigarette/cigar lighter too.
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It's this new philosophical creature that has me curious... One that can preach glorious libertarianism and federalism out of one side of his mouth and then preach the scourge of socialized medicine and statism out the other.
I admit I am a strange creature that many have never seen the likes of. That must be why y'all keep me around.
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I admit I am a strange creature that many have never seen the likes of. That must be why y'all keep me around.
Like a zoo animal?
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It works as a cigarette/cigar lighter too.
Hey. Leave it on the couch and walk away... Collect the insurance. It ain't even arson.
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Like a zoo animal?
Or a mouse surrounded by cats.........
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Dexter’s belief system isn’t unusual amongst young people. Many people I went to college with years ago believed the same things until they started earning regular paychecks and raising families and buying groceries and paying mortgages
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One thing I like about Dexter’s ridiculous threads is that they display the knowledge, brilliance and common sense of Briefers.
I guess one guy’s ignorance brings out the best in (most of) the rest of us! :cool:
We win. You lose!
Or a mouse surrounded by cats.........
I could find a million more of these.
You have some kind of superiority complex.
I'm no psychologist, but after years of going back and forth with you I have come to the conclusion that you might have NPD.
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I could find a million more of these.
You have some kind of superiority complex.
I'm no psychologist, but after years of going back and forth with you I have come to the conclusion that you might have NPD.
Be happy. This is the one feature that keeps you from being blown away to the next planet. You add no intellectual fodder on your own, you are just a catalyst.
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I could find a million more of these.
You have some kind of superiority complex.
I'm no psychologist, but after years of going back and forth with you I have come to the conclusion that you might have NPD.
You're right. You're no psychologist.
I'm just a Conservative who hates Socialism and you're a Socialist who is ignorant about Conservatism.
And you're out of your league here with a bunch of people who know what they're talking about.
Now I'm going to take @Bigun 's advice and quit sparring with you.
I can't compete with your enormous ego.
And your socialist ideology stinks.
I'm going to add to this post rather than add to the thread:
I apologize for any personal attacks that have been included in my posts to or about you, @Dexter . I should not have done that.
For some reason, you bring out the worst in me. Whether it is your arrogance (yes, that's the right word) combined with ignorance or my deep hatred for socialized medicine that "triggers" me, I don't know, but when you post advocating eugenics, and sing the praises of failed governmental control of everything we hold dear....... our health, our lives.... everything....... I react very badly.
I have followed this issue since well before you were born, and I know (as well as many others on this board) the horrors of letting the government control our health.
At any rate, I will finally obey my own promise to leave you alone. I wish you well. And hopefully, for your own happiness, you will move to Scandinavia or Canada, and live under a system you love where you have to wait months on end for the basic testing and care you would get immediately here in America with the healthcare system you hate, so that you make the decision to move back to America with a greater understanding of the failed systems you are on this forum praising. (And because of that, live a long, healthy life).
Peace.
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And you're out of your league here
You did it again in the very next post. :silly:
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Be happy. This is the one feature that keeps you from being blown away to the next planet. You add no intellectual fodder on your own, you are just a catalyst.
I'm glad I can be a catalyst for all of your brilliance. Sorry for not contributing anything that could be considered intellectual. *****rollingeyes*****
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You did it again in the very next post. :silly:
What?? Tell the truth?? :silly:
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Makes me want to poke at ya with a stick, which is the typical redneck reaction to curious things... Except dead beavers (long story)... Won't do that again.
Found a beaver playin' 'possum, huh? :silly:
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What??
You once again went out of your way to emphasize how much more righteous and powerful you are. You have a serious superiority complex.
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Found a beaver playin' 'possum, huh? :silly:
Nope... He was dead... And all puffed up... That's really all I wanna say. **nononono*
:3:
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Nope... He was dead... And all puffed up... That's really all I wanna say. **nononono*
:3:
Oh, yuck! Nasty! :terror: Next time don't have such a pointy stick....
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@Dexter you didn't edit post #544 enough, please try again
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@Dexter you didn't edit post #544 enough, please try again
Welcome to the party Myst. Did you see my post in Members Only?
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Welcome to the party Myst. Did you see my post in Members Only?
Yes, and I am happy to accommodate you. Enjoy.