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General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: mystery-ak on January 19, 2023, 07:19:46 pm

Title: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: mystery-ak on January 19, 2023, 07:19:46 pm
Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
By Collin Rugg January 19, 2023

Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy is preparing to have the House vote on his new “Fair Tax” which would abolish the current federal income tax and replace it with a national sales tax.

“To become speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy reportedly promised a floor vote on the Fair Tax Act,” the National Review reported. “The bill would replace the existing income, payroll, and corporate taxes with a new national sales tax. The bill says the sales-tax rate will be 23 percent. What it means is that a product that costs $100 without the tax will cost $130. (The $30 in taxes is 23 percent of the total price of $130.) Most people will think of that as a 30 percent tax.”

The proposal would give relief to many Americans who are tired of seeing their hard earned money disappear from their paychecks.

Not all Republicans are on board with the plan.

“This is a political gift to Biden and the Democrats,” said Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform (ATR), a taxpayer advocacy group. “I think that this is the first significant problem created for the Republican Party by the 20 people who thought that there was no downside to the approach they took.”

more
https://trendingpoliticsnews.com/kevin-mccarthy-introduces-fair-tax-which-would-abolish-federal-income-tax/
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Free Vulcan on January 19, 2023, 07:33:01 pm
It won't go anywhere and everyone knows that, but I guess it deserves a couple of points for being put out there for the public to see.

Who knows, the idea may catch fire from it.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 19, 2023, 08:10:08 pm
A national sales tax, WTF?

The last thing Americans want is giving the Federal Government even more taxation powers.

Just lower the damned payroll taxes.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 19, 2023, 08:13:53 pm
A national sales tax, WTF?

The last thing Americans want is giving the Federal Government even more taxation powers.

Just lower the damned payroll taxes.

A national retail sales tax has been a constant bogey-man for the past several decades.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 19, 2023, 08:18:08 pm
A national sales tax is an incremental step towards a European-style Value-Added-Tax (VAT).

Reduce the payroll income tax.  Reduce Federal spending.  Stop wasting time creating new schemes to bestow even more power unto the SWAMP.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 19, 2023, 08:19:12 pm
A national sales tax is an incremental step towards a European-style Value-Added-Tax (VAT).

Reduce the payroll income tax.  Reduce Federal spending.  Stop wasting time creating new schemes to bestow even more power unto the SWAMP.


Absolutely.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 19, 2023, 08:43:43 pm
A national sales tax, WTF?

The last thing Americans want is giving the Federal Government even more taxation powers.

Just lower the damned payroll taxes.

The FairTax, if enacted, would very greatly REDUCE the taxing powers of the federal government not expand them!
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 19, 2023, 08:46:23 pm
A national sales tax is an incremental step towards a European-style Value-Added-Tax (VAT).

Reduce the payroll income tax.  Reduce Federal spending.  Stop wasting time creating new schemes to bestow even more power unto the SWAMP.

The FairTax is no such thing! In fact, it would get rid of the VAT we already have called the Corporate Income Tax.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: bilo on January 19, 2023, 09:17:13 pm
The FairTax, if enacted, would very greatly REDUCE the taxing powers of the federal government not expand them!

 :amen:

The govt would not be able to determine what can be deducted and how much can be deducted from your income tax liability. Everyone would pay tax on their purchases.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 19, 2023, 10:11:20 pm
Has anyone ever sat through a state sales and use tax audit?  Has anyone tried to work out how a particular state's sales tax applies to a particular set of facts?  Has anyone ever tried to work out how a particular exemption from sales tax, stated in general terms, applies to their particular set of facts?  Has anyone tried to make sense of what services a state does, and does not, subject to sales tax?

Now multiply the amount of work, intrusiveness of the audit, and time spent dealing with sales tax matters by several orders of magnitude, and one can begin to get a sense of what a national retail sales tax would entail.

On top of which, the amount of fraud would be substantial.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 19, 2023, 10:19:48 pm
Has anyone ever sat through a state sales and use tax audit?  Has anyone tried to work out how a particular state's sales tax applies to a particular set of facts?  Has anyone ever tried to work out how a particular exemption from sales tax, stated in general terms, applies to their particular set of facts?  Has anyone tried to make sense of what services a state does, and does not, subject to sales tax?

Now multiply the amount of work, intrusiveness of the audit, and time spent dealing with sales tax matters by several orders of magnitude, and one can begin to get a sense of what a national retail sales tax would entail.

On top of which, the amount of fraud would be substantial.

BS! Texas has no such problems!
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 19, 2023, 10:52:46 pm
Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish enhance Federal Income Tax

There, fixed it.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 19, 2023, 10:55:31 pm
There, fixed it.

No! You did not fix it. How do you enhance something that no longer exists?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 19, 2023, 11:19:17 pm
No! You did not fix it. How do you enhance something that no longer exists?

Does Amendment XVI still exist?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 19, 2023, 11:26:27 pm
Does Amendment XVI still exist?

Nope! Not for long anyway even though that has nothing to do with an income tax on wages.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 20, 2023, 02:02:27 am
Repeal the 16th Amendment first.  Then we can talk.  But as long as the 16th Amendment remains in place, I don't trust the government one iota when it comes to implementing both taxes.  (See:  Herman Cain 9-9-9 plan)
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: catfish1957 on January 20, 2023, 02:08:30 am
A national sales tax, WTF?

The last thing Americans want is giving the Federal Government even more taxation powers.

Just lower the damned payroll taxes.

I hear ya.....

But a mid March to mid April witout jacking with Schedule Alphabet, Form-XXX, and 200-300 pges of records every year does have some appeal.  :cool:
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: christian on January 20, 2023, 03:42:11 am
Odd how resistant people can be in refusing even simple principals.  For DECADES now, when politicians speak of 'fair' unfair rape follows shortly thereafter.   Lots of mega legislation gets passed but you have to let it get passed to find out hw raped yer gonna get.  Move beyond child level politics and move up to the adult level!
 ****slapping
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: christian on January 20, 2023, 03:43:33 am
Odd how resistant people can be in refusing even simple principals.  For DECADES now, when politicians speak of 'fair', unfair rape follows shortly thereafter.   Lots of mega legislation gets passed but you have to let it get passed to find out how raped yer gonna get.  Move beyond child level politics and move up to the adult level!
 ****slapping
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Smokin Joe on January 20, 2023, 05:28:54 am
Nope! Not for long anyway even though that has nothing to do with an income tax on wages.
I don't consider wages "income" anyway. It is an exchange of skill and labor for fun tickets, value for value, ideally speaking.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: jafo2010 on January 20, 2023, 08:46:28 am
I doubt anyone here will argue that the current Federal Income Tax Program is fair.  I know too many folks that make high incomes and pay little to no taxes.  One architect who made a six figure income most of his life and never paid a dime, never filed a single return with the IRS.  NOT ONE!!!

I know a woman that makes in cash the same amount of money as my wife, close to 90,000 in cash, claims an income under $9,000, is on Obamacare, lives in a $1 million dollar home, tools around in a new BMW, while we pay tens of thousands in income tax, $500 per month in premium for healthcare, and drive two cheap cars, neither new.

The time has come for Congress to make the taxing of Americans more fair.  I support a fair tax 100% if it means the elimination of the Federal Income Tax.  23% is a bit abusive.  I have always liked Herman Cain's approach to leveling taxes.  Whether it is 9 - 9 -9 or 10 - 10 - 10 or whatever, I prefer that concept over anything else.  And I believe we need to end the IRS in its  current form.  Too abusive an organization, which can readily become political, as we have witnessed in the past.

But more important than anything are two primary things Congress must do..

1.  TERM LIMITS

2.  Mandatory balanced budget, only exception during times of declared war by Congress.  We have not had a declared war since 1941.  Also mandatory as long as we have national debt is the mandatory requirement for a plan to wipe out the debt.  MANDATORY!!!

Make these self serving elected pukes in Washington do their damn job!!!  They haven't been doing it for 50 years!!!

 :yowsa: :yowsa: :yowsa:
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: 240B on January 20, 2023, 11:35:00 am
It's a common European system. They call it VAT (Value Added Tax).
The best part is everybody pays, no matter how wealthy. And the tax is included in the price. If the stickers says $5, then you pay $5. Unlike the American system today in which the sticker price has no relevance to how much you will actually pay.

BTW: This confuses the hell out of foreigners who think it is insanity.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 20, 2023, 12:13:15 pm
I don't consider wages "income" anyway. It is an exchange of skill and labor for fun tickets, value for value, ideally speaking.

:mauslaff:
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: EdinVA on January 20, 2023, 12:33:11 pm
Income tax is nothing more than a social engineering tool with no throttle.  The trick is, how do we replace/change it and avoid the same trap?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 20, 2023, 02:10:13 pm
Income tax is nothing more than a social engineering tool with no throttle.

It doesn't have to be.


The trick is, how do we replace/change it and avoid the same trap?

Make it a flat tax.  Everyone pays.  Everyone becomes vested.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 03:10:35 pm
It's a common European system. They call it VAT (Value Added Tax).
The best part is everybody pays, no matter how wealthy. And the tax is included in the price. If the stickers says $5, then you pay $5. Unlike the American system today in which the sticker price has no relevance to how much you will actually pay.

BTW: This confuses the hell out of foreigners who think it is insanity.

Exactly the same here except for the fact that it doesn't show up on your sales receipt.

The corporate income tax is a subtraction method VAT in function and consumers pay every cent when the buy anything made in this country.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on January 20, 2023, 03:16:19 pm
I'd love for this to happen, along with repealing 16th and 17th but it will probably never happen. We love government in this country too much. We just do.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 03:22:32 pm
I'd love for this to happen, along with repealing 16th and 17th but it will probably never happen. We love government in this country too much. We just do.

We have been conditioned that way for a LONG time now but that does not mean it took everybody in.

If it were up to me, tomorrow morning the Federal Government would be less than one third its current size.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 20, 2023, 04:03:51 pm
The Feds will KEEP the income tax AND implement a new National Sales Tax.

The Establishment is not about to give back the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution.

So, the alleged "Fair Tax" is a US Chamber of Commerce scam to reduce corpoporate taxes at the expense of average, working Americans.

If Corporations were really people, they'd be paying 40% in Federal Taxes (income + FICA + Medicare).

Lower the damned individual payroll tax rate, Dingus McCarthy.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: catfish1957 on January 20, 2023, 04:22:25 pm

If Corporations were really people, they'd be paying 40% in Federal Taxes (income + FICA + Medicare).



And corporate EPS numbers and dividends would shrink to near zero.

Speak for yourself.  :cool:
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 06:03:59 pm
The Feds will KEEP the income tax AND implement a new National Sales Tax.

The Establishment is not about to give back the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution.

So, the alleged "Fair Tax" is a US Chamber of Commerce scam to reduce corpoporate taxes at the expense of average, working Americans.

If Corporations were really people, they'd be paying 40% in Federal Taxes (income + FICA + Medicare).

Lower the damned individual payroll tax rate, Dingus McCarthy.

No! They will not if the FairTax becomes law.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 20, 2023, 06:05:35 pm
The Feds will KEEP the income tax AND implement a new National Sales Tax.

The Establishment is not about to give back the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution.

So, the alleged "Fair Tax" is a US Chamber of Commerce scam to reduce corpoporate taxes at the expense of average, working Americans.

If Corporations were really people, they'd be paying 40% in Federal Taxes (income + FICA + Medicare).

Lower the damned individual payroll tax rate, Dingus McCarthy.


Nonsense.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 20, 2023, 06:06:32 pm
I'd love for this to happen, along with repealing 16th and 17th but it will probably never happen. We love government in this country too much. We just do.

Repealing the 16th wouldn't do diddly-squat to prevent income taxation of wages.  Capital gains, interest, and rents?  Yes, but not wages.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 06:08:03 pm
Nonsense.

 :yowsa: 100%
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 20, 2023, 06:13:54 pm
Would a National Sales Tax require a Constitutional Amendment, like the Federal Income Tax did?

Does the Fair Tax explicitly and Constitutionally repeal the 16th Amendment (Federal Income Tax)?

Are there exemptions for food, medicine, healthcare, and clothing?  What about real estate?

Does that mean the cost of building materials at Home Depot will increase almost 30% at a time when we need to build more housing?

Will the sales tax be applicable to business-to-business purchases such as software or paper?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: catfish1957 on January 20, 2023, 06:21:58 pm
I've purposely stayed out of the fray on an exact system to manage taxation.

Problem is, economics is not a static system.  Depending on market conditons, and overall financial criteria, one system may not work over an another.

I think the consensus, might  be a flexed program based on national debt, GDP, and Debt to capitalization, plus profit ratios of those who are being taxed.

I envision the best bet may be a bastardized version of a flat tax and a VAT, and that VAT floating on the criteria I mentioned earlier.
Any new systen DOES in my opinion need to have provisons to clip the wings or eliminate the IRS.  Plus reduce or eliminate any new debt or hae provisons to reign in runaway government spending.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 20, 2023, 06:25:42 pm
Would a National Sales Tax require a Constitutional Amendment, like the Federal Income Tax did?

Does the Fair Tax explicitly and Constitutionally repeal the 16th Amendment (Federal Income Tax)?

Are there exemptions for food, medicine, healthcare, and clothing?  What about real estate?

Does that mean the cost of building materials at Home Depot will increase almost 30% at a time when we need to build more housing?

Will the sales tax be applicable to business-to-business purchases such as software or paper?

With respect to point 1: (a) a Constitutional amendment would not be necessary for a national sales tax because that is simply a species of "indirect" excise tax, (b) a Constitutional amendment was not needed for the income tax on wages, only for the income tax on rents, interest, dividends, and capital gains, and (c) most likely, if the Supreme Court had been left to its own devices, the 1895 Income Tax cases would have been overruled simply because the logic underpinning the holding was specious in the extreme, meaning that even for the income tax as it applied to rents, interest, dividends, and capital gains ultimately an amendment would probably not have been necessary.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 06:28:46 pm
Would a National Sales Tax require a Constitutional Amendment, like the Federal Income Tax did?

Does the Fair Tax explicitly and Constitutionally repeal the 16th Amendment (Federal Income Tax)?

Are there exemptions for food, medicine, healthcare, and clothing?  What about real estate?

Does that mean the cost of building materials at Home Depot will increase almost 30% at a time when we need to build more housing?

Will the sales tax be applicable to business-to-business purchases such as software or paper?

Read the friggin bill and get back to me when you have some idea as you what you are talking about @DefiantMassRINO

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1

You might also spend some time here (https://fairtax.org/) in the research library section.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: catfish1957 on January 20, 2023, 06:32:38 pm
Read the friggin bill and get back to me when you have some idea as yo what you are talking about @DefiantMassRINO

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1

As much as I have screamed about the federal  deficit every other post, you have equally supported our need for tax reform.  Keep up the good fight my friend,   :beer:
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 06:36:48 pm
As much as I have screamed about the federal  deficit every other post, you have equally supported our need for tax reform.  Keep up the good fight my friend,   :beer:

On that you can depend @catfish1957 I've been working toward this for thirty years. I'm firmly convinced it's the key to fixing our Republic.

"Our federal tax system is, in short, utterly impossible, utterly unjust and completely counterproductive . . . (it) reeks with injustice and is fundamentally un-American . . . it has earned a rebellion, and it's time we rebelled."

Ronald Reagan, 1983
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 20, 2023, 07:57:04 pm
The Bill looks more idealogical than fiscal:

- it defangs/eliminates IRS
- transfers Federal tax collection to states while taxation power remains Federal
- deregulates Presidential campaign finance
- it moves Social Security, Medicare, and Pension liabilities to general, annual operating budget
- it transfers Federal tax burden away from income to sales tax on goods, services, and bartering

Deficiencies are:

- Tax rate will be ambiguously variable, which is a source of uncertainty for planning.
- It lacks exemptions or suspension during Declarations of Emergencies and Disaster.
- It has no explicit provisions for reduced Government spending.

It has potential to reduce future spending on current "Non-Discretionary" spending by moving Social Security, Medicare, and Pensions to the general budget.

State Government will still need to intrude into people's lives to calculate, collect, and administer the taxes.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 09:11:24 pm
The Bill looks more idealogical than fiscal:

- it defangs/eliminates IRS
- transfers Federal tax collection to states while taxation power remains Federal
- deregulates Presidential campaign finance
- it moves Social Security, Medicare, and Pension liabilities to general, annual operating budget
- it transfers Federal tax burden away from income to sales tax on goods, services, and bartering

Deficiencies are:

- Tax rate will be ambiguously variable, which is a source of uncertainty for planning.
- It lacks exemptions or suspension during Declarations of Emergencies and Disaster.
- It has no explicit provisions for reduced Government spending.

It has potential to reduce future spending on current "Non-Discretionary" spending by moving Social Security, Medicare, and Pensions to the general budget.

State Government will still need to intrude into people's lives to calculate, collect, and administer the taxes.

“If an enemy power bent on destroying our nation were somehow given the opportunity to devise our tax code with a goal of sapping the nation of its economic vitality, imparing the moral fiber of its people, wasting huge resources on unproductive administration, and causing division and frustration in its people, it could do little better than to adopt our current Internal Revenue Code…The American Tax system is a complete mess.”

 Richard Vedder (Hearing before the Subcommittee on Oversight of the Internal Revenue Service of the Committee on Finance, U.S. Senate, 98the Cong., 2nd Sess., September 17,1984) p.130

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.  When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.

Federalist #21

Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 20, 2023, 09:39:00 pm
"What the income tax does is lead the people of this country down a path to where actual control of their resources, which in the end is the control over their will, is handed off to the government.
The government then manipulates that will in order to destroy the freedom of our electoral system through the income tax structure, and we call the resulting slavery a free system.
In point of fact, it is not as the founders understood, and the only way to restore real freedom is to give people back control over the income that they earn so that they won‘t, at the voting booth and in other phony issues, be subject to that manipulation."


   ALAN KEYES IS MAKING SENSE Television Show Monday, Jan. 28, 2002
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on January 21, 2023, 02:07:13 pm
Would a National Sales Tax require a Constitutional Amendment, like the Federal Income Tax did?

Does the Fair Tax explicitly and Constitutionally repeal the 16th Amendment (Federal Income Tax)?

Are there exemptions for food, medicine, healthcare, and clothing?  What about real estate?

Does that mean the cost of building materials at Home Depot will increase almost 30% at a time when we need to build more housing?

Will the sales tax be applicable to business-to-business purchases such as software or paper?

With the traditional fair tax there were "necessity" exemptions like food, clothing etc. Not sure about building materiels.

In theory it wouldn't matter, the burden is shifted from income to consumption, so you may still end up with more money in your pocket.

Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 02:50:54 pm
With the traditional fair tax there were "necessity" exemptions like food, clothing etc. Not sure about building materiels.

In theory it wouldn't matter, the burden is shifted from income to consumption, so you may would still end up with more money in your pocket.

Fixed
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 02:59:26 pm
As much as I have screamed about the federal  deficit every other post, you have equally supported our need for tax reform.  Keep up the good fight my friend,   :beer:

BTW @catfish1957 those two things are very closely connected (as you well know already)
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 03:05:27 pm
I'd love for this to happen, along with repealing 16th and 17th but it will probably never happen. We love government in this country too much. We just do.

Sadly true.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Kamaji on January 21, 2023, 03:06:07 pm
With the traditional fair tax there were "necessity" exemptions like food, clothing etc. Not sure about building materiels.

In theory it wouldn't matter, the burden is shifted from income to consumption, so you may still end up with more money in your pocket.



“In theory” - such wonderful, comfortable words.  “In theory” the mRNA vaccines would cure Covid-19 without any risk to the vaccinated.  How’d that work out?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 03:10:04 pm
There should be no exemptions to any tax.  Eveyone pays.  Everyone.  It's called 'Equal Protection'.  It actually says it in the Constitution.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on January 21, 2023, 04:35:07 pm
A National Sales Tax would mean that the Government would be less intrusive in People's lives and in Businesses.

A National Sales Tax would put more pressures on Businesses' profit margins as its inputs are taxed and its customers have to pay a higher price for their output.

Low wage retailers would benefit by lower structural labor costs.

The effect on businesses that consume significant input is more ambiguous.  A company that consumes a service would pay a tax if its provided by an independent entity, but if they hire the persons in-house, the company can avoid a sales tax.  This would provide businesses that in-source services a competitive price advantage over those who consume third-party services.

For an enterprise that consumes goods as inputs, the structural cost of those inputs increases, possibly exponentially for value-added goods as inputs.  This may put domestic manufacturing or value-add enterprises at a competitive disadvantage.

Small domestic manufacturing business concerns would be competing on an even playing field with each other, but at a significant disadvantge to foreign manufacturers and those who import foreign goods.  Importers and their customers are paying a sales tax on a finished product, versus each input and the finished product being subject to the sales tax.

The current income dispartities in this nation are primarily caused by capital gains being taxed less than wages and profit.  A national sales tax does nothing to resolve this disparity unless a sales tax is applied to each acquisition and disposition of stock shares, bonds, and assets.

The  Fair Tax Act provides for a significantly less intrusive Federal Government, but, would lead to a re-balancing of American economies - personal, business, and Government.

Such a proposal should be through an expansive and diverse set of economic modeling to measure outcomes.

A monetary impact would be a decrease in the velocity of money through the economy.  A higher velocity of money would produce more economic activity with a smaller money supply.

Taxation is a no-goldilocks-solution problem  Any proposal that initiates discussion about changing the tax regime in the United States is a productive excercise.

Wages and Profits need to be taxed less; Capital Gains need to be taxed more.  Also, business taxes should be applied based upon the business activity in the U.S. versus based upon where the business is domiciled.

To bring more supply chains back to Amercia, we need a tax regime that decreases input costs - goods, services, labor - rather than increasing it.

I'm of the general belief that consumption tax regimes are regressive.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: EdinVA on January 21, 2023, 04:52:25 pm
A National Sales Tax would mean that the Government would be less intrusive in People's lives and in Businesses.


Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.
I like the idea but it needs some ironing...
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: catfish1957 on January 21, 2023, 05:14:53 pm
A National Sales Tax would mean that the Government would be less intrusive in People's lives and in Businesses.

A National Sales Tax would put more pressures on Businesses' profit margins as its inputs are taxed and its customers have to pay a higher price for their output.



I like my idea of a blended bastardized version better, in that VAT's are regressive in nature that are hence GDP growth killers, and in my greedy little  world, dividend killers due to the reduced EPS that would follow equities in tandem.

OTOH, I sure like the idea of full simplization of the IRS income tax aspect (lower rate flat tax) which makes the April 15th a 1 hour exercise rather than a 100.

That is why I prefer the blend. So that the pain is shared.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 05:18:04 pm
Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.

@EdinVA - Exactly.  The BATF is transformed into the longest acronym in government.  Instead of searching for your stills in Franklin County, they will be coming by your house seeking proof that taxes were paid on the lumber you used to build that new garage.  So instead of keeping one income tax return each year, one may have to keep receipts of everything purchases lest the re-ve-noo-ers come after you later down the line.

Now @Bigun will argue this is all nonsense, that the Feds can be trusted to leave tax collection up to the States.  But States are already in charge of cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, etc., yet we still have a BATF.

Bottom line, I DO NOT TRUST the Federal Government.  So I am loathe to give them a new means of taxation over us.  The power to tax is the power to destroy.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 06:33:03 pm
Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.
I like the idea but it needs some ironing...

Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 06:38:34 pm
@EdinVA - Exactly.  The BATF is transformed into the longest acronym in government.  Instead of searching for your stills in Franklin County, they will be coming by your house seeking proof that taxes were paid on the lumber you used to build that new garage.  So instead of keeping one income tax return each year, one may have to keep receipts of everything purchases lest the re-ve-noo-ers come after you later down the line.

Now @Bigun will argue this is all nonsense, that the Feds can be trusted to leave tax collection up to the States.  But States are already in charge of cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, etc., yet we still have a BATF.

Bottom line, I DO NOT TRUST the Federal Government.  So I am loathe to give them a new means of taxation over us.  The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Nope @Hoodat Bigun will argue that passing the FairTax into law would simply return us to the only form of taxation universally endorsed by our founders and rid us of the Communist inspired mess we currently endure.  (See Federalist 21 to which there was no anti federalist reply. Also Communist Manifesto, Section II, Toward the end.)

And BTW; I do not trust the Federal government AT ALL which is why I favor removing things like the IRS from their bag of tricks permanently!
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 06:41:55 pm
Nope @Hoodat Bigun will argue that passing the FairTax into law would simply return us to the only form of taxation universally endorsed by our founders and rid us of the Communist inspired mess we currently endure.  (See Federalist 21 to which there was no anti federalist reply. Also Communist Manifesto, Section II, Toward the end.)

Again, I hear what you are saying.  But I have zero faith that the Federal Government will go along with that.  Pass an Amendment first.  Then we can talk.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 06:43:09 pm
Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.

The same cash register codes they already have in place for cigarettes and liquor?  Yet we still have a BATF.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: EdinVA on January 21, 2023, 06:44:15 pm
Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.
@Bigun States "pay" retailers for collecting and tracking sales tax so would the feds do the same or do we just load retailers up with extra reporting and not compensate them?
Color me skeptical...
What would you do with businesses?  How would you allow for depreciation of equipment, or would you?
How about businesses like cleaning businesses, they don't sell anything but services but they buy a lot of cleaning equipment, do the whole sellers now collect sales tax?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 06:44:54 pm
Again, I hear what you are saying.  But I have zero faith that the Federal Government will go along with that.  Pass an Amendment first.  Then we can talk.

Can't be done that way and you know it!

PS; I added a sentence to my post above.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 06:48:57 pm
@Bigun States "pay" retailers for collecting and tracking sales tax so would the feds do the same or do we just load retailers up with extra reporting and not compensate them?
Color me skeptical...
What would you do with businesses?  How would you allow for depreciation of equipment, or would you?
How about businesses like cleaning businesses, they don't sell anything but services but they buy a lot of cleaning equipment, do the whole sellers now collect sales tax?

Yes @EdinVA  under the FairTax, states would be compensated as would retailers. If I could get folks to simply READ THE BILL (https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1) (linked to above) we could have a much more productive conversation.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 06:54:40 pm
Can't be done that way and you know it!

It can't be done that way because government is unwilling to forfeit power.  Period.  Which is why I am not willing to give them even more power with a national sales tax while they still have the power to tax my income.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 07:02:16 pm
It can't be done that way because government is unwilling to forfeit power.  Period.  Which is why I am not willing to give them even more power with a national sales tax while they still have the power to tax my income.

You keep repeating that line @Hoodat but I simply cannot understand how getting rid  of the Marxist income tax and it's handmaiden IRS is giving the FedGov more power.  PLEASE explain.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 07:04:49 pm
If I could get folks to simply READ THE BILL (https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1) (linked to above) .  .  .[/size]

Chapter 3 needs to be scrapped in its entirety.  Sec 103 is a big problem, too.  As if businesses don't already have enough to do.  There will be a substantial increase in the demand for accountants.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 07:07:51 pm
You keep repeating that line @Hoodat but I simply cannot understand how getting rid  of the Marxist income tax and it's handmaiden IRS is giving the FedGov more power.  PLEASE explain.

First off, the income tax isn't Marxist.  It is Biblical.  Secondly, the Federal Government currently has the power to levy taxes on income.  Again, I refer you to the Constitution:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


This means that at ANY time in the future, the federal government can impose an income tax in addition to this sales tax.  It cannot be any plainer.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 07:19:31 pm
Chapter 3 needs to be scrapped in its entirety.

Here you and I find some agreement.  The original bill did not have that provision. It was added because of Democrat lies and because so many lack even a basic understanding of economics. I favor keeping it now because it takes away so many of their spurious arguments.

 
Quote
Sec 103 is a big problem, too.  As if businesses don't already have enough to do.  There will be a substantial increase in the demand for accountants.

Have you forgotten that the income tax (both personal and corporate) and ALL current payroll taxes would now be gone?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 07:27:27 pm
Have you forgotten that the income tax (both personal and corporate) and ALL current payroll taxes would now be gone?

For a while, anyway.  But Sec 103 puts the onus on both the seller and the purchaser.  So who is going to enforce compliance?  Once a month, I am required to submit a tax form to whatever entity replaces the IRS detailing everything I have sold in the last 30 days?  And if I fail to do that, then the buyers will be tracked down by that same entity, demanded of proof that they paid federal taxes on their purchases?  This scenario repeated each month, every month throughout the year?  No thanks.

I can track my own income.  I can prove that taxes were withheld.  I only have to submit this one time each year.  And I don't have to worry about anyone else's sales or purchases.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 07:38:25 pm
First off, the income tax isn't Marxist.

Say what?

“Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what's happening to him.”

T. Coleman Andrews, Commissioner of IRS, May 25, 1956 in U.S. News & World Report.

Quote
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

Quoted from The Manifesto of the Communist Party, Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm



 
Quote
It is Biblical.  Secondly, the Federal Government currently has the power to levy taxes on income.  Again, I refer you to the Constitution:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


This means that at ANY time in the future, the federal government can impose an income tax in addition to this sales tax.  It cannot be any plainer.

And has been explained on this thread several times already,
Quote
Repealing the 16th wouldn't do diddly-squat to prevent income taxation of wages.  Capital gains, interest, and rents?  Yes, but not wages.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,489799.msg2772515.html#msg2772515




Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 07:49:13 pm
I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".  But then you knew that already.

Also, "wages" qualify as "incomes, from whatever source derived".
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 08:10:29 pm
I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".  But then you knew that already.

Also, "wages" qualify as "incomes, from whatever source derived".

Quote
TITLE III—OTHER MATTERS

SEC. 301. PHASE-OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OF REPEALED FEDERAL TAXES.
(a) Appropriations.—Appropriations for any expenses of the Internal Revenue Service including processing tax returns for years prior to the repeal of the taxes repealed by title I of this Act, revenue accounting, management, transfer of payroll and wage data to the Social Security Administration for years after fiscal year 2027 shall not be authorized.

(b) Records.—Federal records related to the administration of taxes repealed by title I of this Act shall be destroyed by the end of fiscal year 2027, except that any records necessary to calculate Social Security benefits shall be retained by the Social Security Administration and any records necessary to support ongoing litigation with respect to taxes owed or refunds due shall be retained until final disposition of such litigation.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1#toc-HDEAC6FBEE53E4C80BA555F1F714A907C

Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 08:24:08 pm
I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".

Out of curiosity, what DO you support @Hoodat ?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 08:34:14 pm
(b) Records.—Federal records related to the administration of taxes repealed by title I of this Act shall be destroyed by the end of fiscal year 2027,

A record destroying statute does NOT prevent Congress from reinstating an income tax the very next year.  You are relying on ignorant trust that the government won't come back later and change the law again.  Thus the need for a Constitutional Amendment.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 08:37:15 pm
Out of curiosity, what DO you support @Hoodat ?

Again, a flat income tax.  Everyone pays the same percentage.  Everyone.  If you make $10,000, you pay $1,700.  If you make $1,000,000,000, you pay $170,000,000.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 08:53:19 pm
Again, a flat income tax.  Everyone pays the same percentage.  Everyone.  If you make $10,000, you pay $1,700.  If you make $1,000,000,000, you pay $170,000,000.

OK! Here are a few things I find objectionable about that:

1. It requires the retention of the IRS and ALL of its intrusive powers

2. It can easily grow back into what we have now.

3. It would continue what is the cottage industry of Washington D.C. i.e. Defining the word "Income" and thus would keep K Street Lobby employed just as it is now

4. It leaves in place all payroll, gift, and estate taxes.

Linked below is a chart that compares  The FairTax, flat rate income tax, and the current income tax.

https://mr.cdn.ignitecdn.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/af83/6970/2d1c/f60a/0000/56c4af8369702d1cf60a0000.pdf?1455730563

You might want to take a good look at that.

Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 08:59:35 pm
A record destroying statute does NOT prevent Congress from reinstating an income tax the very next year.  You are relying on ignorant trust that the government won't come back later and change the law again.  Thus the need for a Constitutional Amendment.

And neither would repeal of the 16th prevent that.

What amendment would be needed?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 09:07:05 pm
OK! Here are a few things I find objectionable about that:

1. It requires the retention of the IRS and ALL of its intrusive powers


You're plan replaces the IRS with the BATFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ,


2. It can easily grow back into what we have now.

Yours can easily grow back into something much worse than we have now.


3. It would continue what is the cottage industry of Washington D.C. i.e. Defining the word "Income" and thus would keep K Street Lobby employed just as it is now

K-Street has nothing to do with income.  K-Street's sole focus is on spending and regulation.  That won't change.


4. It leaves in place all payroll, gift, and estate taxes.
[/size]

Receiving gifts and inheriting estates is not income.  If you are talking about social security taxes, those should be eliminated along with the program.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 09:08:22 pm
And neither would repeal of the 16th prevent that.

Did the Federal government have the right to tax incomes before the 16th Amendment was ratified?
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 09:12:32 pm
You're plan replaces the IRS with the BATFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ,


Yours can easily grow back into something much worse than we have now.


K-Street has nothing to do with income.  K-Street's sole focus is on spending and regulation.  That won't change.


Receiving gifts and inheriting estates is not income.  If you are talking about social security taxes, those should be eliminated along with the program.

You are wrong on all counts but definitely entitled to your opinions.

 I'm done for today.  Have a great rest of your weekend.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Bigun on January 21, 2023, 09:13:54 pm
Did the Federal government have the right to tax incomes before the 16th Amendment was ratified?

Yes! And they did so. As did the Confederacy.
Title: Re: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax
Post by: Hoodat on January 21, 2023, 09:18:24 pm
Yes! And they did so. As did the Confederacy.

Even more reason for a Constitutional Amendment.