I'm trying to be patient, but enough is enough. As the author says "What Was the Point of Winning the Election?".
After elections are over, there are only a few things you can do. You can call/write your congresspersons ...you can express yourself on social media and you can write letters to the editor.
It's frustrating. But why do people forget and forgive the next time these morons run for election? We need to put a stop to that.
Nearly every member of the Republican caucus campaigned on repealing Obamacare and told voters they were “constitutional conservatives.”
If there’s positive about the process around the AHCA, it’s that so far it is moving slowly. Unlike Obamacare’s passage, Republicans have been transparent. Unfortunately what they’ve cooked up so far is transparently awful. It’s time to scrap the patch and unleash the free market.Nothing they’ve done since would lead anyone to believe either claim was true.
Unless the AHCA is fundamentally transformed to the point states are free to experiment, the market is free to function, and individuals are free to make their own choices, everything we have been told will have been a lie, the whole thing should be scrapped and Obamacare allowed to collapse. Both parties will be blamed, and both parties will be to blame.
A golden opportunity in the cause of liberty will have been squandered because, after seven years of talk, Republicans could not do the one thing they told us they would; the reason they were in the position to disappoint us in the first place. It’s time to start over and do it right – if Speaker Ryan and the rest of Republican leadership actually have it in them to do what they’ve campaigned on.
https://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2017/03/19/what-was-the-point-of-winning-the-election-n2301048
On top of that, the GOP plan allows insurers to charge older people five times what they charge younger customers, compared to three times under Obama's health care law.
Well I wouldn't say 'nothing'. One can tell how much they/Trump has done by gauging the howls and screams of outrage coming from the idiot left since January 20. However, if (and note, I did say "if".... since one really can't go by or believe anything out of lamestream media)....
it's true about the TrumpCare the GOP is now pushing, then we are being fed yet another crap sandwich, only this time it's loaded with Grey Poupon instead of plain Heinz mustard. If their new and brilliant plan, which they had YEARS to come up with, really does penalize and target older folks like it says in this article and in others I have read, then that's age discrimination (supposedly illegal) and it's going in the exact 'other' wrong direction. How stupid, really, would the GOP have to be? Or.... is it something else that's causing it....? Yeah.... I posit that it's that something 'else'. And we've been had. AGAIN.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/many-older-americans-costs-rise-131227123.html
After elections are over, there are only a few things you can do. You can call/write your congresspersons ...you can express yourself on social media and you can write letters to the editor.
It's frustrating. But why do people forget and forgive the next time these morons run for election? We need to put a stop to that.
After elections are over, there are only a few things you can do. You can call/write your congresspersons ...you can express yourself on social media and you can write letters to the editor.How about packing town halls with a thousand supporters like the Dems do?
It's frustrating. But why do people forget and forgive the next time these morons run for election? We need to put a stop to that.
I'm trying to be patient, but enough is enough. As the author says "What Was the Point of Winning the Election?".
Conservatives didn't win the election. Instead, we got a guy who said during the campaign that he liked the Obamacare mandates and who two years prior helped Mitch McConnell fight off a TEA Party challenge.
One night in July last year, I lost all hope of government getting out of the health insurance market after witnessing a Conservative getting booed while giving a Conservative speech at a Republican gathering.
You're right.
I didn't vote for Trump because of his behavior and I didn't believe he could be trusted to do what he promised. I did vote for all the other Pubs on the ballot because I did believe they could be trusted to do what they promised. I regularly give contributions to conservative candidates as well. It looks like I have no one to support in the future because no one serving represents me. I know this could change, but I don't see Trump advocating a true repeal and the House Pubs have no backbone. At this point it looks like the Pubs will screw up their opportunity and the Rats will make big gains in 2018.
You're right.If the primary challenges for the Members from the useless branch of the GOP (GOPu?) don't work, the Dems might win back some seats. This is the same GOPe slap in the face that the TEA party folks got, writ larger. The time for excuses is over.
At this point it looks like the Pubs will screw up their opportunity and the Rats will make big gains in 2018.
Also keep in mind that many of our representatives have local offices and they do visit their local offices once in a while... gathering a small group to visit them when they're in their home office I have found is a bit more effective than writing or emailing ...phone calls seem to help as well.Yep. Nearest "local" office is 140 miles away.
But yes, you are correct ... bottom line is to vote the idiots out of office. However, the flip side to that is; hopefully someone is running that is worth replacing them with otherwise it becomes having to chose from the lesser of two evils which seems to happen more so than not.
Conservatives didn't win the election. Instead, we got a guy who said during the campaign that he liked the Obamacare mandates and who two years prior helped Mitch McConnell fight off a TEA Party challenge.
The time for excuses is over.
Also keep in mind that many of our representatives have local offices and they do visit their local offices once in a while... gathering a small group to visit them when they're in their home office I have found is a bit more effective than writing or emailing ...phone calls seem to help as well.
The same group of people who wanted obamaphones, mortgages paid, and cash from Obama's stash, voted for their new sugar daddy. The results will be the same.
The time for taking responsibility is here.Is it now? THEN TAKE IT. You liberals made this mess and now you are desperate to 'save' it.
Conservatives who obstruct are just as much a menace as liberals who obstruct.Menace, am I? Well, Jazzy, at least the mask is off. What's next? The summer camp roundup? Train rides?
C'mon, enough with this intellectual laziness. The AHCA will get rid the IRS out of the business of asking both individuals and businesses to file tax returns reporting health insurance coverage. No one will be "forced" to purchase insurance they don't want. How will "the results be the same"?
C'mon, enough with this intellectual laziness. The AHCA will get rid the IRS out of the business of asking both individuals and businesses to file tax returns reporting health insurance coverage. No one will be "forced" to purchase insurance they don't want. How will "the results be the same"?The people who lost their coverage will still be without. The people who lost full time jobs will be without. The people who shut down their businesses in the face of Obamacare will still be without. The people who lost wages because their hours were cut will still be without. Premiums three times what people paid previously will still be ridiculously high. Deductibles that doubled or more won't go down. et fricking cetera. For the responsible person who had been paying their own way, they'll still be screwed.
There already IS a Constitution Party. I voted for their guy for POTUS.
And if the GOPe doesn't behave itself, and support the Republican POTUS, we're going to see the birth of the Constitution Party.
It’s time to scrap the patch and unleash the free market.
There already IS a Constitution Party. I voted for their guy for POTUS.
The same group of people who wanted obamaphones, mortgages paid, and cash from Obama's stash, voted for their new sugar daddy. The results will be the same.
Oooh.....that is so not true. So far off the mark it's laughable. I know several folks that voted for Trump (I did not) that loathe Barack Hussein Obama. The only reason Trump is president is because more mainstream Americans loathed Hillary.
Meh.....it was the way he flashed that Glamour cover smile, his Italian suits, and his natural ability to use a teleprompter.
Oh.....and because he is Black. :laugh:
Trump won because their own polls showed Hillary winning in a landslide....and free-loaders being naturally lazy...didn't get off their asses to vote.
When The Democratic Party publicly wrote off the White Middle Class vote, together with shutting down the coal industry with costly regulations/fines, together with firsthand exposure to the Obamacare Lie....Trump had his path to victory. (no matter what their union leadership proclaimed)
Meh.....it was the way he flashed that Glamour cover smile, his Italian suits, and his natural ability to use a teleprompter.
Oh.....and because he is Black. :laugh:
Trump won because their own polls showed Hillary winning in a landslide....and free-loaders being naturally lazy...didn't get off their asses to vote.
When The Democratic Party publicly wrote off the White Middle Class vote, together with shutting down the coal industry with costly regulations/fines, together with firsthand exposure to the Obamacare Lie....Trump had his path to victory. (no matter what their union leadership proclaimed)
Correction. I meant to say the main reason, not the only reason. There are, in fact, many reasons why Trump won. Main one is that he was the ONLY alternative to having Hillary Clinton as president. But to say that the same idiots that voted for Obama to get mo free stuff voted for Trump is simply not accurate.
A lot of people have the naive view that repealing Obamacare will return us to the status quo ante, giving us back the health insurance/health care system we had before. Unfortunately that is not the case. Obamacare broke a lot of beneficial features of the health care system we used to have -- including physician-owned hospitals and duty-to-treat charity hospitals -- drove some people out of their health insurance plans, provided others with health insurance plans they never had (and may or may not have wanted), drove up premiums and/or deductibles and coinsurance for everyone (Do you really think health insurers will give that back unless forced to either by regulation or something we've never, ever, had: effective market competition in health insurance? If you do, I have a bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn you might be interested in buying...).
Abolishing it without a carefully considered replacement that understands this, and a means of transition to that replacement that doesn't produce chaos, will be far worse leaving it in place for another six months to eighteen months to work out an actually viable replacement (yes, ideally one that actually creates real effective markets in both health insurance and health care).
If you break it you bought it. For now the broken American health care system belongs to the 'Rats. If the GOP break it further it will be theirs and the 'Rats will hang it around the neck of the GOP and the Right for decades to come.
You're all kind of talking around the point. The feral government will never voluntarily reduce its control over any aspect of our society. That just isn't going to happen.
This is the unabashed Truth that few to none are willing to recognize.
You cannot stop unbridled zealotry for power and control by people totally unmoored from moral principles. Those IN and those supported BY Government are never going to give up expanding their power. Doesn't matter which party is at the helm because we have an oligarchy running things and party is just the shell game they use to create the illusion we have a voice in restraining government power in our lives. Government has become the god of this nation, whether we would recognize it or not. We have become accustomed to tyranny and we lie to ourselves that we are free.
ObamaCare is here to stay, with merely more scaffolding for cosmetic differences to be applied.
Only an economic collapse will force the hand of the state from behemoth programs such as this, but chances are those in power will merely blame those they fear for the disaster so as to direct all the rage from themselves.
The truth is, You cannot stop tyranny via civil means.
The 'Repeal' and replacement of our health insurance system will be the vehicle that destroys the Democrat Party.
President Trump will publicly call for the primary of ALL Congressmen and Senators who vote against his plan.
Coming on the heels that, indeed, the Democrats made up the Putin/Trump association, it won't be that difficult for him to do.
And if the GOPe doesn't behave itself, and support the Republican POTUS, we're going to see the birth of the Constitution Party.
Republicans on the other hand, splinter like cheap wood. They don't have each other's backs---not even the President's. They use each other's backs as a stepping stone to the highest moral, purist level possible and to rehash hurt feelings. When looking at Republicans one does not admire their strength, one snickers at their unique talent to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. There will be many primary fights in the Republican Party--but to what end I cannot even imagine.
We can threaten to form a Constitution Party. We can carry through on that threat. But by the time this party is strong enough to matter, it most assuredly will not.
It is now or never.
It's time to find ourselves a different branch of service we can fight with.
When the Generals and the leadership of the party, turn on their own base and demand we shut up while they sell us out to the enemy and engage in slaughtering us in our racks at night - staying in that army is no longer an option unless you want to be a soldier for traitors.
I won't fight for their oligarchy.
It's time to find ourselves a different branch of service we can fight with.
Well then...it's about to be hijacked and turned into a major Party.Good, as long as you stick to the platform!
:laugh:
When the Generals and the leadership of the party, turn on their own base and demand we shut up while they sell us out to the enemy and engage in slaughtering us in our racks at night - staying in that army is no longer an option unless you want to be a soldier for traitors.I came to that conclusion well before last November. That's why I voted for the Constitution Party candidate. I knew Trump would get ND's electoral votes, and Hillary would not, so I had no qualms whatsoever.
I won't fight for their oligarchy.
It's time to find ourselves a different branch of service we can fight with.
Maybe it's time to recognize that the base consists of pragmatic folks in the middle who want their elected representatives to address actual problems, not spit ideology and mythology.The GOP, depending on how it behaves now that it has the 'Trump' cards, may well have no future. It no longer has any excuses, either.
If you're the "base", INVAR, the GOP has no future.
We want neither political wars nor culture wars. We want results.
I came to that conclusion well before last November. That's why I voted for the Constitution Party candidate. I knew Trump would get ND's electoral votes, and Hillary would not, so I had no qualms whatsoever.
You forget one very important difference between Democrats and Republicans @DCPatriot --- The Democrats hang together--through thick and thin. Hillary's breathtaking defeat should have shattered the Democrats. It did not. They are in our faces 24/7. They and the MSM speak from one page of talking points, hammering their "truth". NO Democrat congressman or senator will be primaried because of their vote against repeal of Obamacare. With one voice they will be celebrated.After campaigning for six years to repeal-replace, they must deliver. So only now, they come up with this 3 phase stuff.
Republicans on the other hand, splinter like cheap wood. They don't have each other's backs---not even the President's. They use each other's backs as a stepping stone to the highest moral, purist level possible and to rehash hurt feelings. When looking at Republicans one does not admire their strength, one snickers at their unique talent to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. There will be many primary fights in the Republican Party--but to what end I cannot even imagine.
We can threaten to form a Constitution Party. We can carry through on that threat. But by the time this party is strong enough to matter, it most assuredly will not.
It is now or never.
Godspeed @INVAR. I'm only trying to send a clarion call that the time is now and the clock is ticking. I'm not sure we'll get another chance. At this moment in our history we need strength in numbers as well as principle.
Maybe it's time to recognize that the base consists of pragmatic folks in the middle who want their elected representatives to address actual problems, not spit ideology and mythology.
If you're the "base", INVAR, the GOP has no future.
You forget one very important difference between Democrats and Republicans @DCPatriot --- The Democrats hang together--through thick and thin. Hillary's breathtaking defeat should have shattered the Democrats. It did not. They are in our faces 24/7. They and the MSM speak from one page of talking points, hammering their "truth". NO Democrat congressman or senator will be primaried because of their vote against repeal of Obamacare. With one voice they will be celebrated.
Republicans on the other hand, splinter like cheap wood. They don't have each other's backs---not even the President's. They use each other's backs as a stepping stone to the highest moral, purist level possible and to rehash hurt feelings. When looking at Republicans one does not admire their strength, one snickers at their unique talent to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. There will be many primary fights in the Republican Party--but to what end I cannot even imagine.
We can threaten to form a Constitution Party. We can carry through on that threat. But by the time this party is strong enough to matter, it most assuredly will not.
It is now or never.
You're all kind of talking around the point. The feral government will never voluntarily reduce its control over any aspect of our society. That just isn't going to happen. What y'all need to do is help get an Article V convention called so the states can force the federal behemoth back into its Constitutional restrictions.
The Republican Party is the melting pot for American capitalists, and for those of us that appreciate the heritage and history we were taught in school.
It's for those of us who grew up with 30-60 minute Westerns, where Christian morals and fairness won out before the last commercial.
Many Americans still don't realize how close we came to LOSING the Republic last November 8th....with this "open borders" crap for another 8 years??
John Wayne was my hero! I grew up with the Real McCoys, Bonanza, Gunsmoke, Lassie, Rawhide, etc. American pride was rampant and respect for our country and for one another was taught in our schools. Immigrants assimilated. They learned the language and wanted to become Americans rather than expect America to assimilate to them. Mothers were able to stay home to take care of their children as families were able to survive on one income. Yes we came very close to losing our Republic and you are right many don't realize how close we came to losing her; heck many don't even realize that we are a Republic. With all the seemingly frivolous hearings, accusations, fake news and a very strong and real attempt to derail this presidency, I'm not so sure we're out of the woods.We are far from out of the woods. I think the only reason we don't seem as deep is that you can only go half way in before you are on your way out the other side. That doesn't mean we will come out of the woods, or that if we do we will come out into familiar or even desirable terrain.
We are far from out of the woods. I think the only reason we don't seem as deep is that you can only go half way in before you are on your way out the other side. That doesn't mean we will come out of the woods, or that if we do we will come out into familiar or even desirable terrain.
Without belaboring the point the fact that we ended up with the contenders we did and that the contest was so close in terms of popular vote--and that it has been so now for 5 presidential election cycles tells me this country is in serious philosophical trouble. No matter which side you are on, half of the people out there are idiots and enemies of the vision you may have for this country, and for those who would like something of a return to the original Republic, the numbers of those opposed are even greater, many of whom superficially self-identify as people who should be in agreement. The soi-disant conservatives are a threat to the very identity of conservatism, and without realizing it, the Republic.
Half measures toward the restoration thereof are the lukewarm, the neither hot nor cold that simply will not work, but is spewed from mouths all over in the name of compromise and pragmatism and the 'good' that stands in the way of demanding the perfect.
Sorry about the rant, but I think this Republic is still in serious trouble, and the most distressing part is that those who claim to be with us are watering down the measures which need to be taken.
After campaigning for six years to repeal-replace, they must deliver. So only now, they come up with this 3 phase stuff.
And phase 3 requires a 60 vote Senate majority. It shouldn't be that difficult. The 60 votes is NOT in the constitution.
My instinct is they are protecting the status quo, the establishment, holding to the plans and proposals put forth by lawyers and lobbyists for the mega-health insurance industry.
Not willing to revert to a completely free market. A free market whereby the "single payer" is the consumer himself.
Employers can insure if they want. Consumers can buy policies if they want. But nobody is compelled to do anything.
Doctors and hospitals can take installments on costly procedures.
The poor, as always will be treated out of charity. Just like in the 40s-50s-60s when we were great.
It’s time to scrap the patch and unleash the free market.
https://townhall.com/columnists/derekhunter/2017/03/19/what-was-the-point-of-winning-the-election-n2301048
We are far from out of the woods. I think the only reason we don't seem as deep is that you can only go half way in before you are on your way out the other side. That doesn't mean we will come out of the woods, or that if we do we will come out into familiar or even desirable terrain.
Without belaboring the point the fact that we ended up with the contenders we did and that the contest was so close in terms of popular vote--and that it has been so now for 5 presidential election cycles tells me this country is in serious philosophical trouble. No matter which side you are on, half of the people out there are idiots and enemies of the vision you may have for this country, and for those who would like something of a return to the original Republic, the numbers of those opposed are even greater, many of whom superficially self-identify as people who should be in agreement. The soi-disant conservatives are a threat to the very identity of conservatism, and without realizing it, the Republic.
Half measures toward the restoration thereof are the lukewarm, the neither hot nor cold that simply will not work, but is spewed from mouths all over in the name of compromise and pragmatism and the 'good' that stands in the way of demanding the perfect.
Sorry about the rant, but I think this Republic is still in serious trouble, and the most distressing part is that those who claim to be with us are watering down the measures which need to be taken.
After elections are over, there are only a few things you can do. You can call/write your congresspersons ...you can express yourself on social media and you can write letters to the editor.
It's frustrating. But why do people forget and forgive the next time these morons run for election? We need to put a stop to that.
Unfortunately that is easier said than done. Even before Obamacare both health insurance and health care (despite the 'Rat propaganda pretending they are the same thing, they are not -- health care is the basket of physicians and allied health professionals provide, health insurance is the way we've contrived to pay for health care) have not been offered by anything like a free market since at least the 1940's, and we have a huge regulatory superstructure at both the federal and state level that would have to be largely dismantled to get their provision back to anything like free market conditions.
So long as health insurance is more or less tied to being employed (by a large employer, not self-employed) or poor, there will not be an effective market in health insurance. So long as health insurance cannot be sold across state lines, even if it were no longer tied to employment or poverty, there will not be an effective market in health insurance.
So long as health care is paid for almost exclusively by health insurance, rather than largely by the users or beneficiaries of the services directly, there will never be an effective market in health care.
Whole industries have grown up for no reason other than the regulatory climate we have had for decades, which Obamacare only slightly exacerbated, to wit, the medical billing industry. Yes, that's a real thing. There are thousands of people whose job it is to minutely classify everything physicians and allied health professionals do to report it on insurance claims, for which they get a cut of the money that otherwise
go to the physician. They are "needed" because rather than a physician's time being worth, say $200/hour, or a psychologist's worth, say $130/hour, another parasitic industry with one foot in government and another, the health care bureaucrats, have come up with "values" for procedures and limits on coverage (the patient came in for complaint X symptomatic of disease Y, which is covered, but turned out instead to have disease Z which isn't, so the physician doesn't get paid). This is called "containing health care costs", but no one has ever run the numbers to see how much of health care costs are really going to the medical billing industry and how much to the healthcare bureacrats, and whether the "savings" from not paying physicians and allied health professionals for their services wouldn't be outstripped by tossing the medical billers and bureacrats onto the unemployment line and just paying those who actually provide health care a competitive wage commensurate with the value of their services.
It is now or never.As a point of factual reference, the current plan we call "Obamacare" was signed into law March 23, 2010. (EIGHT months from now, equivalent)
You forget one very important difference between Democrats and Republicans @DCPatriot --- The Democrats hang together--through thick and thin. Hillary's breathtaking defeat should have shattered the Democrats. It did not. They are in our faces 24/7. They and the MSM speak from one page of talking points, hammering their "truth". NO Democrat congressman or senator will be primaried because of their vote against repeal of Obamacare. With one voice they will be celebrated.
Republicans on the other hand, splinter like cheap wood. They don't have each other's backs---not even the President's. They use each other's backs as a stepping stone to the highest moral, purist level possible and to rehash hurt feelings. When looking at Republicans one does not admire their strength, one snickers at their unique talent to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. There will be many primary fights in the Republican Party--but to what end I cannot even imagine.
We can threaten to form a Constitution Party. We can carry through on that threat. But by the time this party is strong enough to matter, it most assuredly will not.
It is now or never.
Rather than looking at what we did not get out of this election, lets look at what we got so far. A SCOTUS appointee. That would have been Hillary picking a person - remember that. With a few exceptions, his cabinet appointments have been positive. Also Tax reform, the Pipeline, and offshore drilling can be through in with many other small victories.
Saying it was pointless winning the election is not thinking the whole thing through very well. Yes, repealing and replacing Obamacare, which was a campaign promise of every GOP candidate in one way or another, is not going very well. Does anyone think it would have gone any smoother with any of the other candidates? I think we would be in the same quagmire, if Cruise, Rubio, or any of the others had one. I don't think funding a "border wall" will go any easier, and frankly I never did think what was proposed was achievable or affordable.If the problem were just the potus, well, that'd be one guy and easily enough remedied next time.
Rather than looking at what we did not get out of this election, lets look at what we got so far. A SCOTUS appointee. That would have been Hillary picking a person - remember that. With a few exceptions, his cabinet appointments have been positive. Also Tax reform, the Pipeline, and offshore drilling can be through in with many other small victories.
I didn't vote for him, and I still find him rather obnoxious - but he's our President and there is no going back.
If the problem were just the potus, well, that'd be one guy and easily enough remedied next time.
Unfortunately, it is not so much the problem as the GOP in Congress, and then not all of them. You see, in some districts Republican or Democrat is just a brand, like Coke, Pepsi, or RC Cola. No matter what you vote for, the flavor is basically the same (only subtle differences in sweetness and aftertaste).
Those districts want a middle of the road Liberal, a JFK, not a Barry Goldwater to represent them in Congress. They want someone who will bring home the bacon, first and foremost, and get that Gubmint money in their home district, keep the navy base open even if it is a thousand miles from open water, pave the streets with grants, and give folks a lot of fat phony baloney obs to choose from. They don't so much give a diddley damn about politics, about the Constitution, rights in general, balance of power, States' Rights or any of it so long as the show is good, the bread is piping hot, and they get to ride the elephant during intermission.
Now, in the districts which still have voters who care about the things I have named above, not so much including 'higher education grants' or base closures, or even paving the roads, people want someone who will be a regular Mr. Smith in Washington, and vote for that, but Mr. Smith can't get sh*t done because other people who are supposedly aligned with his brand aren't in fact aligned with anything but getting reelected, rolling the pork barrel home, and lining their pockets, directly or indirectly.
And that's why we're in the mess we're in. The Democrats embrace the liberal agenda, which their voters support, and vote en bloc. The Republicans come in more flavors than Ben and Jerry's and have a new one every month.
As a point of factual reference, the current plan we call "Obamacare" was signed into law March 23, 2010. (EIGHT months from now, equivalent)
This current GOP effort is moving faster, than did the democrat effort.
As appoint of another fact, Sen. Collins was elected in 2014 with 68% of the votes. So she was NOT up for election in 2016, and she won't be in 2018, either.
The individual holdout Republicans have local situations; local constituencies.
Finally Trump himself ran on "repeal AND replace," like it (or him) or not.
The media and democrats are pushing, pushing. Take it easy, relax, sharpen the plan and do the best they can.
Complaining about there even an iota of socialism in the US system is kind of pointless as there are already components that would be called socialist baked into the cake. To take one easily gored ox: social security. How many of those here who complain about socialism are just as opposed to social security? How many plan to turn down their SSA benefits?
Complaining about there even an iota of socialism in the US system is kind of pointless as there are already components that would be called socialist baked into the cake. To take one easily gored ox: social security. How many of those here who complain about socialism are just as opposed to social security? How many plan to turn down their SSA benefits?
The time for taking responsibility is here. Conservatives who obstruct are just as much a menace as liberals who obstruct.
I'm not sure how to respond to that. I never wanted the government to take my income for SS, but now that they have, I want it back with interest compounded. Does that make me a socialist?
Are you entitled to get your other tax payments back with interest compounded? Is that how the tax system is supposed to work?
Social security and Medicare taxes are just that - taxes, compulsory revenue extracted by the sovereign from people under its jurisdiction - and not an investment made in your name. Your entitlement to social security is nothing more than a socialist entitlement to government support. I.e., welfare.
SS wasn't meant to be a tax, so employing a legal fiction to say that it is is dishonest.
SS was meant to be a ponzi scheme from Day 1.
This is what we state in our knowledge and wisdom born in the fullness of time, but it really wasn't meant to be that way in the beginning.
This is what we state in our knowledge and wisdom born in the fullness of time, but it really wasn't meant to be that way in the beginning.
How the hell long @truth_seeker do we "relax"?
They've had eight long years to think about this and have been under the gun to define a solution for eight months--- since the Republican victory in November. Not doing it and doing it now is inexcusable and justifies throwing this whole damn political party into the dustbin of history.
Relax ... :talkhand:
Yes, it was. Here are FDR's own words:
We put those pay roll contributions there so as to give the contributors a legal, moral, and political right to collect their pensions and their unemployment benefits. With those taxes in there, no damn politician can ever scrap my social security program.
This by definition is a ponzi scheme. Those at the top have a moral right to draw from a fund filled by those at the bottom.
SS wasn't meant to be a tax, so employing a legal fiction to say that it is is dishonest.
And yet, it IS a tax. Here's the FICA tax: IRC sec. 3101(a): "In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to 6.2 percent of the wages (as defined in section 3121(a)) received by the individual with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121(b))."
That's the way it was enacted essentially. It's a tax. Furthermore, it's a very regressive tax on wages, i.e., only on the income of workers, who generally aren't near the top of the income pile.
I read up on it some @Oceander, since I last mentioned it (see my link above). It is a tax, as ruled by the SCOTUS in 1937. Very similar to the way the SCOTUS recently ruled Obamacare is a tax.
Fortunately for me, I'm in the category of people who are more likely to believe in flying saucers than believe SS will be there for me when I get older. :shrug:
I don't believe in it either.
But as far as the S.Ct twisting it goes, I don't think so. There is a tax in there and it's a regressive tax on wages. And it isn't tied to benefits in any meaningful way: benefits are only marginally tied to tax collections, and benefits can be repealed without repealing the tax.
At the link I read at SSA, the legal argument was about the "reserve clause" of the 10th Amendment. IIRC, a SCOTUS Justice said in dissent the 10th is pretty much a dead letter because of that decision. It was not lightly done.
As for it being regressive, it is if you consider the benefits as not tied to tax collections. This has been a source of argument for some time as well. I've seen the argument made it's not regressive, because the benefits ARE tied to collections. I think that's an inaccurate view of it, and one of the few things I disagreed with William F Buckley about.
Complaining about there even an iota of socialism in the US system is kind of pointless as there are already components that would be called socialist baked into the cake. To take one easily gored ox: social security. How many of those here who complain about socialism are just as opposed to social security? How many plan to turn down their SSA benefits?
Making sausage, takes as long as it takes. If watching upsets anybody, then don't watch. I merely stated the democrats took far longer to craft their disaster.
No matter what the GOP comes up with, the dems and the media will claim it will kill many people.
I agree with you @truth_seeker that no matter what the GOP comes up with, the medial will claim it will kill people.They should have done what the Dems do: had it ready to go if their guy won. Apparently they decided during the primaries that 'their guy' (whichever GOPe guy that was) had already lost.
That wasn't my point. My point is they've had seven years (or eight months to be kind) to come up with something they can agree on to move the needle of Obamacare in the right direction. They should have made the sausage, cooked it and served it by now.
They should have done what the Dems do: had it ready to go if their guy won. Apparently they decided during the primaries that 'their guy' (whichever GOPe guy that was) had already lost.
'Shirley', you can't be THAT stupid!!
Social Security benefits are the taxpayers' monies, paid during a lifetime of employment so that you can have a little something set aside for retirement years.
Conflating Socialism with receiving SS benefits is intellectually (and I being generous with you) dishonest.
And yet, it IS a tax. Here's the FICA tax: IRC sec. 3101(a): "In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to 6.2 percent of the wages (as defined in section 3121(a)) received by the individual with respect to employment (as defined in section 3121(b))."
That's the way it was enacted essentially. It's a tax. Furthermore, it's a very regressive tax on wages, i.e., only on the income of workers, who generally aren't near the top of the income pile.
Yes, it's a tax. Yes, it's a regressive tax on wages. But the benefits funded by FICA are also regressive, providing the primary means of retirement income security for most Americans.
The most likely way SS will be reformed to pay for the boomers is to provide regressive benefits by means of progressive taxation - that is, by removing the wage cap and taxing benefits for folks with higher income levels.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder925/500x/57647925/leslie-nielsen-shirley-dont-call-me-shirley.jpg)
SoSec was their own money - paid back what they paid into it with interest as a guaranteed pension of sorts. Not Socialism at all.
Yes, it's a tax. Yes, it's a regressive tax on wages. But the benefits funded by FICA are also regressive, providing the primary means of retirement income security for most Americans.
The most likely way SS will be reformed to pay for the boomers is to provide regressive benefits by means of progressive taxation - that is, by removing the wage cap and taxing benefits for folks with higher income levels.
Why not means testing benefits?
Why not means testing benefits?
Actually its not a regressive tax. Its one of the few taxes where everyone pays at the same rate regardless of income. One of the few fair taxes we have.
No, it's regressive. FICA is capped above the wage base - the rich don't pay in (for SS) after their wage incomes reach a certain amount.
No, it's regressive. FICA is capped above the wage base - the rich don't pay in (for SS) after their wage incomes reach a certain amount.
Actually its not a regressive tax.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder925/500x/57647925/leslie-nielsen-shirley-dont-call-me-shirley.jpg)
I was waiting to see if anyone was going to mention the fact that as originally 'sold' to the people, SoSec was their own money - paid back what they paid into it with interest as a guaranteed pension of sorts. Not Socialism at all.
But then.... Socialism came in by the hand of Government when Congress decided to take the revenue designated for the "SS trust fund" and reapportioned it into the general fund - essentially taking the money of the producers and redistributing it to whatever it was the government wanted to spend it on.
Call it Thievery. Grand Theft. Ponzi Scheme.
What was sold to the people was not Socialism, because it was supposed to be their own money held in trust, paid back.
But of course with every little thing the government touches - it steals and redistributes, which is of course the operative form of Socialism.
And that "trust fund" is broke. Empty.
So we now write IOU's that they dump into the same "fund" to the tune of trillions and soon the revenue stream from what is currently employed will not be enough to pay out to retirees as promised.
THAT will be fun, watching the consequences of Socialism play out.
Because it screws people who actually planned ahead for their retirements?
How? By counting on handouts and freebies from the government? I thought only liberals and their plantation slaves thought that way. And throwing fits when they don't get those handouts?
Every conservative knows that we DIDN'T actually win the election - some reality show fake conservative chimp did... and he's not capable of leading a conservative revolution any more than McCain would be.
Nearly every member of the Republican caucus campaigned on repealing Obamacare and told voters they were “constitutional conservatives.” Nothing they’ve done since would lead anyone to believe either claim was true.
Now the liberal Pubs will claim we must have Rat support and the final fix of obamacare will be more regulations, more subsidies of insurance companies, less freedom for people in the individual market and a further expansion of the medicaid program which already covers people up to 350% above the poverty line.
The benefits are capped as well.
How? By counting on handouts and freebies from the government? I thought only liberals and their plantation slaves thought that way. And throwing fits when they don't get those handouts?
The benefit formula also favors the theoretically poor by returning a higher percentage of income replacement. Of course one could be quite wealthy but still "poor" from the viewpoint of payroll tax payments...
There were a lot of people (who are not liberals as we would define them) who believed what they were told for years, that SS was a kind of investment vehicle and planned accordingly. Those of us who did not believe that were called "cynics."
This just goes to show, lies of the magnitude of "Keep your plan" have been around a lot longer than Obama.
(I personally never trusted that crap, whatever the law specifically says, because I'm a full-blown cynic. I'll probably still get burned somehow, but it won't be because I trusted SS,)
They may not be liberals, but they are indulging in liberal talking points when they argue, contrary to the law, that they somehow paid for social security benefits and are therefore entitled to them in a way that other welfare beneficiaries are not.
No, it's regressive. FICA is capped above the wage base
- the rich don't pay in (for SS) after their wage incomes reach a certain amount.
Nevertheless, we will soon be hearing "Why should a rich bleep like Bill Gates get to collect SS?"
Nevertheless, we will soon be hearing "Why should a rich bleep like Bill Gates get to collect SS?" This is already being bandied about. If Mr. Gates paid in, he should collect. Warren Buffet I'm not so sure about because I don't know that he did, nor Trump.
The only thing you will hear from me is, "Why should I be forced (at the point of a gun) to contribute to a ponzi scheme when I could be setting that money (14% of total income) aside for my own retirement?"