The Briefing Room

State Chapters => Arizona => Topic started by: Elderberry on September 28, 2021, 10:59:46 pm

Title: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on the P
Post by: Elderberry on September 28, 2021, 10:59:46 pm
Gateway Pundit by Joe Hoft 9/28/2021

Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on the Plethora of Evidence Identified in the Senate’s Audit

Arizona State Representative and future Secretary of State, Mark Finchem, calls for the 2020 Results in Arizona to be decertified.

Yesterday we noted that Rep. Mark Finchem is calling for audits of the remaining counties in Arizona after the results of the Maricopa County were released.

After listening to the plethora of evidence provided during the Senate’s presentation on Friday, Rep. Finchem called for the decertification of the 2020 Election results in Maricopa County in a tweet.

Mark Finchem for AZ Secretary of State
@RealMarkFinchem

After hearing the evidence in the Arizona Audit report I call for decertification of the Arizona election, arrest of those involved in tampering with election systems, and an audit of Pima County as a next step.

Rep. Finchem provided the following document to The Gateway Pundit to share.

[This is a summary of where Mark started.]

On November 30th, members from the Arizona House and Senate held a Public Hearing on election Integrity that gave the public an opportunity to present evidence and sworn testimony to the panel regarding the 2020 general election. The mission of the Public Hearing on Election Integrity was to, “prove or disprove alleged discrepancies in the 2020 General Election.” Hundreds of Arizona citizens submitted sworn affidavits, under penalty of perjury, to the panel detailing inconsistencies they encountered during the election process. Members of the panel found that the evidence presented was sufficient to justify further examination of our elections.  It was our duty, as elected officials, to listen to the testimony on November 30th and proceed with an investigation called for by tens of thousands of constituents from all over Arizona. The Senate moved forward with a forensic audit on December 14, with the results released on Friday September 24th.

Our focus from the November 30th hearing and since has been on transparency. We wanted to make sure our constituents had full disclosure regarding our elections. If they had questions, we would seek answers. Remarkably, our elections, both as a country and a state, have never undergone a full forensic audit before. We knew it would take time, but  accuracy was believed to be more important. If the audit showed no inconsistencies, then we could all move on. But, if the audit showed inconsistencies, we knew we would have to do everything in our power to find out what went wrong and develop solutions to address the problems.

One of our greatest freedoms of speech as citizens not subjects, is the right to vote. Having free and fair elections is the cornerstone of our democratically elected Republic. We owe our freedom to vote to every single veteran who fought for this country. Sadly, it is clear from the audit report released on Friday that our elections are far from fraud-free, fair, and secure.  With the information that has been presented, the only justifiable action is for our Attorney General to open a full investigation into the actions revealed in the Audit Report. The Arizona Legislature must also consider nullifying and reclaiming the 2020 Electoral College Electors.

More: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/draft-arizona-state-representative-mark-finchem-calls-2020-election-results-decertified-based-plethora-evidence-identified-senates-audit/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/draft-arizona-state-representative-mark-finchem-calls-2020-election-results-decertified-based-plethora-evidence-identified-senates-audit/)
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 29, 2021, 02:18:49 am
🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on September 29, 2021, 02:50:05 am
Arizona should decertify their election results since it is now clear that their previous certification included illegal votes far in excess of the margin of error.  It won't change the national election, but it would go a long way towards restoring election integrity within its own State.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on September 29, 2021, 02:53:00 am
🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

What is that emoji? Too small for me to see clearly... Hand on forehead?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 29, 2021, 03:12:43 am
Arizona should decertify their election results since it is now clear that their previous certification included illegal votes far in excess of the margin of error.  It won't change the national election, but it would go a long way towards restoring election integrity within its own State.

If your goal is to restore election integrity, I would agree.

If your goal is to restore it under the old system, I don't agree.

You can't have elections won by such razor thin margins using a system that is basically "sloppy".

It's like trying to measure parts per billion with an instrument that can't guarantee anything less than 10 parts per million.  It's meaningless.

We need systems that are robust, transparent and agreed upon from the start.  Then we need apparatus that can operated them properly so we can stay away from this kind of s**tstorm.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 29, 2021, 03:13:38 am
What is that emoji? Too small for me to see clearly... Hand on forehead?

Yes.

I can't import anything...have not figured out how.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on September 29, 2021, 03:22:12 am
Yes.

I can't import anything...have not figured out how.

@HikerGuy83

What do you want to do?  Import an image like this?

(https://www.pngmart.com/files/11/Facepalm-Girl-PNG-Photos.png)
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: LegalAmerican on September 29, 2021, 03:31:36 am
If your goal is to restore election integrity, I would agree.

If your goal is to restore it under the old system, I don't agree.

You can't have elections won by such razor thin margins using a system that is basically "sloppy".

It's like trying to measure parts per billion with an instrument that can't guarantee anything less than 10 parts per million.  It's meaningless.

We need systems that are robust, transparent and agreed upon from the start.  Then we need apparatus that can operated them properly so we can stay away from this kind of s**tstorm.

There is no razor thin, anything.  You just don't know

[Edited by Mod2 - please lay off insults of other members]
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: LegalAmerican on September 29, 2021, 03:32:57 am
Arizona should decertify their election results since it is now clear that their previous certification included illegal votes far in excess of the margin of error.  It won't change the national election, but it would go a long way towards restoring election integrity within its own State.

 :thumbsup: :bingo:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: BassWrangler on September 29, 2021, 03:50:22 am
Yes.

I can't import anything...have not figured out how.

The emojis here suck. Hoping this will be an area of improvement in the next version of the forum software.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on September 29, 2021, 03:52:12 am
Yes.

I can't import anything...have not figured out how.

If it helps, under [more] this site has this one in the emoji library: :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on September 29, 2021, 03:53:47 am
The emojis here suck. Hoping this will be an area of improvement in the next version of the forum software.

Hey, I like this one:
 :dumpster:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: BassWrangler on September 29, 2021, 03:54:41 am
If it helps, under [more] this site has this one in the emoji library: :facepalm2:

My issue is I have a hard time visually identifying the emoji I want, even when I know it's there. I feel like I'm taking that pattern recognition test on the ASVAB again.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: BassWrangler on September 29, 2021, 03:55:25 am
Hey, I like this one:
 :dumpster:

That's my favorite too. It's not so much what emojis, as it is how hard it is (for me at least) to find them.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 29, 2021, 04:02:17 am
There is no razor thin, anything.  You just don't know and I believe have TDS.



Thanks for supplying all that back up for your assertions.

Made it real easy to understand the logic behind your conclusions.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on September 29, 2021, 04:02:33 am
My issue is I have a hard time visually identifying the emoji I want, even when I know it's there. I feel like I'm taking that pattern recognition test on the ASVAB again.

It often takes me a few passes through them all to find the one I remember seeing, partly because many share similar colors. I don't know if that can be simplified without loosing some of them. And sometimes you need just the right one...
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 29, 2021, 04:02:51 am
@HikerGuy83

What do you want to do?  Import an image like this?

(https://www.pngmart.com/files/11/Facepalm-Girl-PNG-Photos.png)

Yes
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on September 29, 2021, 05:16:11 am
@HikerGuy83

When you post, look for the little picture icon above the posting window.  Click that, and you will see in brackets (replace '{}' with '[]') {img}{/img}.  In between these, you copy and paste the URL of the image you are trying to post.

Better yet, click on Quote on my post, and look at the code.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: BassWrangler on September 29, 2021, 05:26:42 am
It often takes me a few passes through them all to find the one I remember seeing, partly because many share similar colors. I don't know if that can be simplified without loosing some of them. And sometimes you need just the right one...

Exactly. I do feel like the emojis themselves could be kept but presented in a way that makes it easier to find them. Maybe size them all the same and put them in a table with dividers. Or group them in some way, or provide a search.

Ideally it would be nice to have the animated GIF feature that they have on Twitter, combined with the standard emojis that are part of the Unicode standard.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: MajorClay on September 30, 2021, 02:00:28 am
Bump
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on September 30, 2021, 02:10:51 am
If your goal is to restore election integrity, I would agree.

If your goal is to restore it under the old system, I don't agree.

You can't have elections won by such razor thin margins using a system that is basically "sloppy".

It's like trying to measure parts per billion with an instrument that can't guarantee anything less than 10 parts per million.  It's meaningless.

We need systems that are robust, transparent and agreed upon from the start.  Then we need apparatus that can operated them properly so we can stay away from this kind of s**tstorm.

De-certifying an election conducted according to the old, sloppy system might go a long way toward creating a new, auditable, robust, transparent system.  But such a system will never be agreed on from the start - the Ds will never agree to a system that prevents them from cheating; they'll simply label it "racist".

R-majority legislatures should put in place new systems anyway.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 03:29:09 am
De-certifying an election conducted according to the old, sloppy system might go a long way toward creating a new, auditable, robust, transparent system.  But such a system will never be agreed on from the start - the Ds will never agree to a system that prevents them from cheating; they'll simply label it "racist".

R-majority legislatures should put in place new systems anyway.

What crystal ball do you have that we don't that tells you how democrats will respond to securing election integrity ?

Please share.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on September 30, 2021, 03:50:21 am
What crystal ball do you have that we don't that tells you how democrats will respond to securing election integrity ?

Please share.

You mean besides every attempt at securing voting to the actual registered voter along with securing the chain of custody of the ballot being fought tooth and nail by the Democrats every step of the way? Calling anyone who dares attempt to do so a racist among other things...
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on September 30, 2021, 06:49:16 am
De-certifying an election conducted according to the old, sloppy system might go a long way toward creating a new, auditable, robust, transparent system.  But such a system will never be agreed on from the start - the Ds will never agree to a system that prevents them from cheating; they'll simply label it "racist".

R-majority legislatures should put in place new systems anyway.

Here is where i probably agree with the "Stop the Steal" crowd. I'm in favor of all new legislation to increase transparency, voter ID, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 03:13:59 pm
You mean besides every attempt at securing voting to the actual registered voter along with securing the chain of custody of the ballot being fought tooth and nail by the Democrats every step of the way? Calling anyone who dares attempt to do so a racist among other things...

Given the GOP's approach (including Trump's) I am not surprised at their responses.

So yes, you still need a crystal ball.

One of these days, extremists won't be leading the conversation.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 03:14:55 pm
Here is where i probably agree with the "Stop the Steal" crowd. I'm in favor of all new legislation to increase transparency, voter ID, etc. etc.

Decertifying the election would result in civil war.

That does NOT mean we should not be dong all possible to increase election integrity.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on September 30, 2021, 03:21:49 pm
Decertifying the election would result in civil war.

That does NOT mean we should not be dong all possible to increase election integrity.

Decertifying the election in Arizona is the first step to increasing election integrity.  The election was fraudulent.  It should not stand.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on September 30, 2021, 03:23:40 pm
Decertifying the election would result in civil war.

That does NOT mean we should not be dong all possible to increase election integrity.
With attitudes like this we are doomed.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Kamaji on September 30, 2021, 03:32:13 pm
Decertifying the election would result in civil war.

That does NOT mean we should not be dong all possible to increase election integrity.

Nonsense.  Decertifying would, at most, result in a Supreme Court case in which the Supreme Court would almost certainly say that it was far too late and that the decertification did not have to be given effect for federal purposes.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 03:36:18 pm
Nonsense.  Decertifying would, at most, result in a Supreme Court case in which the Supreme Court would almost certainly say that it was far too late and that the decertification did not have to be given effect for federal purposes.

I'll give you that it is low probability.

It's probably a moot point. 

We'll soon be into the 2022 election cycle and this thing will start to die.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on September 30, 2021, 03:38:45 pm
Nonsense.  Decertifying would, at most, result in a Supreme Court case in which the Supreme Court would almost certainly say that it was far too late and that the decertification did not have to be given effect for federal purposes.
What's the point of having a constitution if it isn't enforced? Let me remind everyone here that Texas vs Pennsylvania made no allegation of fraud. It raised constitutional issues only and SCOTUS, the court of original jurisdiction, refused to hear it.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 03:52:50 pm
What's the point of having a constitution if it isn't enforced? Let me remind everyone here that Texas vs Pennsylvania made no allegation of fraud. It raised constitutional issues only and SCOTUS, the court of original jurisdiction, refused to hear it.

Did you somehow just figure out that people are ignoring the constitution ?

It's only been going on since the mid 60's and the GOP is just as guilty. 

While I was not pleased with this, I am still behind this court.

Gorsuch
Kavennaugh
Barrett

All justify my vote for Donald Trump.

This country would be done if Hillary had been allowed to fill those seats.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on September 30, 2021, 04:12:06 pm
Did you somehow just figure out that people are ignoring the constitution ?

It's only been going on since the mid 60's and the GOP is just as guilty. 

While I was not pleased with this, I am still behind this court.

Gorsuch
Kavennaugh
Barrett

All justify my vote for Donald Trump.

This country would be done if Hillary had been allowed to fill those seats.

Ha! Ha! You are a really phunny guy!


But you are right it having been going on since the 60s if its the 1860s you're talking about!
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 04:17:44 pm
Ha! Ha! You are a really phunny guy!


But you are right it having been going on since the 60s if its the 1860s you're talking about!


For sure since Roosevelt put his morons on the bench. 

Earl Warren will long be considered an enemy of the U.S. by me and others.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Free Vulcan on September 30, 2021, 04:18:33 pm
Decertifying the election in Arizona is the first step to increasing election integrity.  The election was fraudulent.  It should not stand.

I agree. The news media couldn't ignore it as it is central to their ongoing narrative.

Which means the facts can be put forth in the public debate that will result, and that will ripple heavily, maybe giving these state legislatures the push to increase voter integrity.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on September 30, 2021, 04:20:15 pm
For sure since Roosevelt put his morons on the bench. 

Earl Warren will long be considered an enemy of the U.S. by me and others.

Abe Lincon walked all over the constitution, and we built a huge memorial to him in D. C.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 05:08:10 pm
Abe Lincon walked all over the constitution, and we built a huge memorial to him in D. C.

We can certainly discuss how time has not been a friend to the basis for a truly great form of government.

Lincoln had many people helping him along the way.

On a different topic:

Ever read just how the states were strongarmed into passing the disgusting 14th amendment.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 05:09:40 pm
Back on topic.

Decertification might be the result of a good campaign.

Coming out and yapping about it up front only prepares the opposition for whatever this guy plans.

Seems pretty stupid to start out like this.

He clearly does not care about those who are not as strident as he is.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on September 30, 2021, 05:11:03 pm
We can certainly discuss how time has not been a friend to the basis for a truly great form of government.

Lincoln had many people helping him along the way.

Oh yeah! Many of them being the leaders of failed socialist revolutions that occurred in Europe around 1848 and fled to the USA to escape the hangman in their home countries.

Quote
On a different topic:

Ever read just how the states were strongarmed into passing the disgusting 14th amendment.

I've read many things you will never find in a public-school textbook. 
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on September 30, 2021, 07:50:06 pm
Back on topic.

Decertification might be the result of a good campaign.

Coming out and yapping about it up front only prepares the opposition for whatever this guy plans.

Seems pretty stupid to start out like this.

He clearly does not care about those who are not as strident as he is.

OK, back on topic, and the "he" and "him" to which you refer is Mark Finchem.  I trust him a lot more than other people I know who claim to live in Arizona.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 08:13:59 pm
OK, back on topic, and the "he" and "him" to which you refer is Mark Finchem.  I trust him a lot more than other people I know who claim to live in Arizona.

Trust him in what regard.

I am not challenging his integrity.

I am saying it's pretty stupid to go right to decertification as an opening salvo.

It's like when Bush came out with privatizing Social Security.

Regardless of how you did or didn't like the idea...the messaging sucked and was poorly put together.

At first blush, this seems to be the same.

Don't argue the fact of the case....that is not my complaint.

My complaint is poor optics.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on September 30, 2021, 08:52:36 pm
Trust him in what regard.

I am not challenging his integrity.

I am saying it's pretty stupid to go right to decertification as an opening salvo.

It's like when Bush came out with privatizing Social Security.

Regardless of how you did or didn't like the idea...the messaging sucked and was poorly put together.

At first blush, this seems to be the same.

Don't argue the fact of the case....that is not my complaint.

My complaint is poor optics.

Anything that doesn't cave 100% to Democrats is bad optics. Get over that.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on September 30, 2021, 09:42:30 pm
I'll give you that it is low probability.

It's probably a moot point. 

We'll soon be into the 2022 election cycle and this thing will start to die.

I'm having trouble following your train of thought here @HikerGuy83. First you tell us we can't know how the Ds will respond to election integrity reforms, then you tell us that we can know and you are not surprised at their responses because of some extremism in the existing reform efforts, then you tell us that de-certification would result in Civil War, then you tell us no, that would be a low probability.

We know precisely how the Ds will respond to election integrity reforms because they are already doing so.  They called the GA State Legislature's reform bill "Jim Crow on steroids" and they broke quorum here in TX and left the state to try and prevent the State Legislature's reform bill.

Can you point to the specific provisions in those bills, or the specific legislative actions in drafting and passing those bills, that are consistent with - how did you say it again - something about "extremists leading the conversation?"  Do you know of some other moderate, non-extreme way to insure election integrity rather than having state legislatures pass reform bills?  I'd be interested in hearing the details of any better plan you have in mind, and I would certainly be interested in your plan to get the Ds on board to help out.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 09:56:25 pm
I'm having trouble following your train of thought here @HikerGuy83. First you tell us we can't know how the Ds will respond to election integrity reforms, then you tell us that we can know and you are not surprised at their responses because of some extremism in the existing reform efforts, then you tell us that de-certification would result in Civil War, then you tell us no, that would be a low probability.

We know precisely how the Ds will respond to election integrity reforms because they are already doing so.  They called the GA State Legislature's reform bill "Jim Crow on steroids" and they broke quorum here in TX and left the state to try and prevent the State Legislature's reform bill.

Can you point to the specific provisions in those bills, or the specific legislative actions in drafting and passing those bills, that are consistent with - how did you say it again - something about "extremists leading the conversation?"  Do you know of some other moderate, non-extreme way to insure election integrity rather than having state legislatures pass reform bills?  I'd be interested in hearing the details of any better plan you have in mind, and I would certainly be interested in your plan to get the Ds on board to help out.
Anything that doesn't cave 100% to Democrats is bad optics. Get over that.

I respectfully disagree.

In all my time in this process, I have found that people ignore the middle.

All the left needed to do was peel off a few republicans or indies in order to beat Trump and they were able to do that.

All we need is to peel off a few left of center democrats and we will win.

How you get them is the challenge.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on September 30, 2021, 10:47:49 pm
@HikerGuy83

I'm asking you respectfully and sincerely to give me your best explanation for what happened on election night last year all documented on this thread starting about 11PM (https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,418946.msg2318045.html#msg2318045)

I'm 73 years old and never seen anything remotely like it before.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on September 30, 2021, 10:49:25 pm
I respectfully disagree.

In all my time in this process, I have found that people ignore the middle.

All the left needed to do was peel off a few republicans or indies in order to beat Trump and they were able to do that.

All we need is to peel off a few left of center democrats and we will win.

How you get them is the challenge.


Come on @HikerGuy83 , this sounds like Steve Martin's old routine "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes."  "First, get a million dollars."

What exactly in the GA and TX reform bills was repellent to moderates and (I think imaginary) "peelable" Ds?  You said extremists are leading the conversation - please tell me precisely how extremists led these two specific actions, and what other actions would have been preferable.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on September 30, 2021, 11:12:35 pm
Here is where i probably agree with the "Stop the Steal" crowd. I'm in favor of all new legislation to increase transparency, voter ID, etc. etc.

That's right.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on September 30, 2021, 11:20:28 pm
Decertifying the election in Arizona is the first step to increasing election integrity.  The election was fraudulent.  It should not stand.

That's right. Butt there is no remedy at the federal level. I don't think there are mulligans offered. The AZ electors were bound, the results were certed. That's all folks! All you get now is to do better next time... And that should be the focus.

The only other function of decertification may be a recall of senators/congressmen according to a thrown-out election and re-do, not to mention all state offices that may have been effected - But I don't know if that is true according to AZ state law.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on September 30, 2021, 11:44:41 pm
That's right.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 12:18:14 am
That's right. Butt there is no remedy at the federal level. I don't think there are mulligans offered. The AZ electors were bound, the results were certed. That's all folks! All you get now is to do better next time... And that should be the focus.

The only other function of decertification may be a recall of senators/congressmen according to a thrown-out election and re-do, not to mention all state offices that may have been effected - But I don't know if that is true according to AZ state law.  :shrug:

De-certifying probably would not change a single office and certainly will not change the POTUS outcome.  You’re right, AZ screwed up, full stop, and that’s the end of it.

But it would formally retract the consent of the state of AZ to have its EVs awarded as they were awarded.  It would further damage the credibility of the Biden admin and might encourage other state legislatures to reform.

I hope they do it.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 12:24:58 am
De-certifying probably would not change a single office and certainly will not change the POTUS outcome.  You’re right, AZ screwed up, full stop, and that’s the end of it.

But it would formally retract the consent of the state of AZ to have its EVs awarded as they were awarded.  It would further damage the credibility of the Biden admin and might encourage other state legislatures to reform.

I hope they do it.


Dunno. That will be spun as partisan or Tumpist sour grapes, I think - An action with no other apparent value... Actionable evidence prosecuted to the fullest, and rigorous protections and transparency in following elections would likewise damage Biden, and leave a dang mark too.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 12:51:56 am
Dunno. That will be spun as partisan or Tumpist sour grapes, I think - An action with no other apparent value... Actionable evidence prosecuted to the fullest, and rigorous protections and transparency in following elections would likewise damage Biden, and leave a dang mark too.

De-cert would definitely be spun by the Ds and their media publicists.  But everything is spun so spinning is not a reason to reject a proposed action.

Oh and I want prosecutions and jail time as well, just doubtful either will happen.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Bigun on October 01, 2021, 01:11:47 am
TEXIT!!!
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 01:16:17 am
De-cert would definitely be spun by the Ds and their media publicists.  But everything is spun so spinning is not a reason to reject a proposed action.


I cannot deny that.

Quote
Oh and I want prosecutions and jail time as well, just doubtful either will happen.


Well, this is as close as we have ever been since this all started. No krakens or hail marys in the press... Just a state AG and an axe to grind... and he has the power of enforcement behind him.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 02:20:24 am
I cannot deny that.

Well, this is as close as we have ever been since this all started. No krakens or hail marys in the press... Just a state AG and an axe to grind... and he has the power of enforcement behind him.

I'd feel better about the AG if he wasn't a lying crapweasel who's terrified to face his constituents face to face.  He's slow-walked every damned thing concerning this stolen election.  He will fumble this ball, sure as God made little green apples.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 02:37:51 am
I'd feel better about the AG if he wasn't a lying crapweasel who's terrified to face his constituents face to face.  He's slow-walked every damned thing concerning this stolen election.  He will fumble this ball, sure as God made little green apples.

Then that will be that... and... Bupkis.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 01, 2021, 02:45:03 am
He will fumble this ball, sure as God made little green apples.

  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeTXZ5zPt7k)
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 01, 2021, 03:28:58 am
De-certifying probably would not change a single office and certainly will not change the POTUS outcome.  You’re right, AZ screwed up, full stop, and that’s the end of it.

But it would formally retract the consent of the state of AZ to have its EVs awarded as they were awarded.  It would further damage the credibility of the Biden admin and might encourage other state legislatures to reform.

I hope they do it.

And do you believe that such an effort would not be contentious and drive away those who might otherwise join in defeating a far left agenda ?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 01, 2021, 03:32:12 am
Dunno. That will be spun as partisan or Tumpist sour grapes, I think - An action with no other apparent value... Actionable evidence prosecuted to the fullest, and rigorous protections and transparency in following elections would likewise damage Biden, and leave a dang mark too.

There seem to be some who think we are with unlimited political capital.

We don't have either chamber in congress or the W.H.

And they can't figure out why.

Oh...that's right....we only lose because the other side cheats.

Did Sinema cheat her way into the senate ?

Did Kelly cheat his way into the senate ?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 04:17:16 am
And do you believe that such an effort would not be contentious and drive away those who might otherwise join in defeating a far left agenda ?

It would certainly be contentious.  When the media is against us we have to accept that anything we do will be contentious.  So what?  Are the Ds afraid of being contentious?

There is a long, long list of things I dislike about Trump, but the reason he won the nomination in 2016 and the reason he commands the loyalty of millions is because he simply doesn't give a damn whether or not he's contentious.  That's a lesson the rest of the Rs need to learn - the majority of the R base demands an unapologetic, unrelenting pursuit of stated R policies and they don't care that it's contentious. Trump convinced the R base that he would maintain that unapologetic pursuit.  He went wrong IMO by treating everyone as his political enemy rather than treating just the Ds as his political enemy, and by making issues about himself too often rather than consistently about the country.  But his basic approach is what rank-and-file R voters want, and they are willing to accept his character flaws to get that basic approach.

The Rs aren't going to apologize their way into office. Trump said some incredibly stupid, narcissistic things, but fundamentally the fear of offending people is not a winning political strategy.  The far left agenda includes corruption of elections.  We can't defeat that agenda by refusing to confront that agenda.

Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 06:59:14 am
There seem to be some who think we are with unlimited political capital.

We don't have either chamber in congress or the W.H.

And they can't figure out why.

Oh...that's right....we only lose because the other side cheats.

Did Sinema cheat her way into the senate ?

Did Kelly cheat his way into the senate ?

Hard telling if you can't trust the election process. That's the entire point here.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 01, 2021, 02:04:46 pm
Hard telling if you can't trust the election process. That's the entire point here.

I hope that you get that I completely agree with you.

I am getting ready to start a thread on tracking efforts to do that in Arizona.

What I don't go for is pushing bleating words like steal, corrupt, illegal, and decertification.  They sounds more like battle cries and I, for one, am sick and tired of the ugly (and frankly stupid) state of politics.  Even the dialogue on this board smacks of some kind of "cancel" if you don't agree with their particular POV (and that does not even mean you had a different one.....you might not have one at all....but  that is still wrong.....Hitler would be proud).
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 01, 2021, 02:59:20 pm
Where's the provision in the Constitution to decertify an election? Sheesh, I thought liberals were dumb...
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on October 01, 2021, 03:09:40 pm

If Arizona were to decertify its slate of electors, what happens after that?

I presume decertification is one step of many to work towards an unspecified outcome.

What is the desired final outcome?  What is the end game?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 03:16:31 pm
Where's the provision in the Constitution to decertify an election? Sheesh, I thought liberals were dumb...

I'm sure you know just as well as the rest of us that the Tenth Amendment reserves to the States, and the people, all powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government.  If the legislature of AZ decides that it no longer has confidence in the result it previously certified and sent to the joint session, as the sole determiner of election procedure in AZ it has all authority to say so by de-certifying.

Even if every state that certified D EVs chose to de-certify, Biden would remain at the Resolute desk; one can reasonably argue that de-certifying would be merely symbolic, with no real impact.  AZ, PA, GA, and other states simply screwed up by certifying results that came from procedures that are not trustworthy.  Although moot in terms of immediate impact, de-certifying would say clearly that existing electoral procedures are unacceptable.  If the AZ legislature chose to de-certify, they would really have no choice but to reform their election laws.

I take no position on whether or not a proposed de-cert would stand a chance in the AZ legislature.  In a sense de-cert would be an admission of failure by the state legislature, an admission it had allowed untrustworthy procedures to remain in effect.  For that reason alone the proposal might be a non-starter.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on October 01, 2021, 03:17:00 pm
There seem to be some who think we are with unlimited political capital.

We don't have either chamber in congress or the W.H.

And they can't figure out why.

Oh...that's right....we only lose because the other side cheats.

Did Sinema cheat her way into the senate ?

Did Kelly cheat his way into the senate ?
You seem to believe it matters to most of us who cheats. You'd be wrong.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 03:17:23 pm
I am getting ready to start a thread on tracking efforts to do that in Arizona.

Good luck with that.  A word of advice:  Don't rubbish what people are doing, like you have done so far with the Audit, every step of the way.  If folks are willing to put up with that they'd all have subscriptions to the Arizona Republic, too.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Kamaji on October 01, 2021, 03:32:48 pm
Where's the provision in the Constitution to decertify an election? Sheesh, I thought liberals were dumb...

Right next to the provision that says wiretapping without a warrant is impermissible.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 01, 2021, 03:37:33 pm
Where's the provision in the Constitution to decertify an election? Sheesh, I thought liberals were dumb...

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on October 01, 2021, 03:45:03 pm

Towards what end is decrtifying the Arizona electors a stepping stone?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 03:53:46 pm
Towards what end is decrtifying the Arizona electors a stepping stone?

It gets the attention of AZ voters, who will in turn put pressure on the GOP to actually do something about it.  The majorities we have are razor thin, so a couple of RINOs can thwart every move we make to repair our elections.  There has been a lot of pooh-poohing of our efforts from people who claim to be "Republicans."  They're still so uninformed that they think this is about Donald Trump.

Only Rats and RINO defeatists are happy with the 2020 election. 
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on October 01, 2021, 03:56:41 pm
It gets the attention of AZ voters, who will in turn put pressure on the GOP to actually do something about it.  The majorities we have are razor thin, so a couple of RINOs can thwart every move we make to repair our elections.  There has been a lot of pooh-poohing of our efforts from people who claim to be "Republicans."  They're still so uninformed that they think this is about Donald Trump.

Only Rats and RINO defeatists are happy with the 2020 election.
:yowsa:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 01, 2021, 04:13:46 pm
I'm sure you know just as well as the rest of us that the Tenth Amendment reserves to the States, and the people, all powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government.  If the legislature of AZ decides that it no longer has confidence in the result it previously certified and sent to the joint session, as the sole determiner of election procedure in AZ it has all authority to say so by de-certifying.

Even if every state that certified D EVs chose to de-certify, Biden would remain at the Resolute desk; one can reasonably argue that de-certifying would be merely symbolic, with no real impact.  AZ, PA, GA, and other states simply screwed up by certifying results that came from procedures that are not trustworthy.  Although moot in terms of immediate impact, de-certifying would say clearly that existing electoral procedures are unacceptable.  If the AZ legislature chose to de-certify, they would really have no choice but to reform their election laws.

I take no position on whether or not a proposed de-cert would stand a chance in the AZ legislature.  In a sense de-cert would be an admission of failure by the state legislature, an admission it had allowed untrustworthy procedures to remain in effect.  For that reason alone the proposal might be a non-starter.

It'd basically be masturbation then? Nice to know.

If it's true, i'd want prosecutions. State level office can prosecute.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on October 01, 2021, 04:21:18 pm

Could the Federal Government decertify the Arizona Territory's admission to the Union as a state?

Decertify the Gadsen Purchase of 1853/1854?

It would be nice to all the energy expended on nonsense actually use to SOLVE problems.  Arizona has an evolving water availability problem because of  drought and low water level in the Colorado River resevoirs.  Solutions are needed when useless elected officials are done with their self-serving nonsense.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 04:31:10 pm
It'd basically be masturbation then? Nice to know.
Congratulations, this response will do a lot for your credibility here.
Quote
If it's true, i'd want prosecutions. State level office can prosecute.
I've gone on record on this thread also wanting prosecutions.  Were I a defense attorney and the state legislature failed to de-certify I would certainly argue that my client had simply participated in the process which the state legislature certified; and that the state legislature had confirmed the fitness of the process, and my client's participation, by leaving that certification in force.

So if you're serious about wanting prosecutions, you might want to think through to what would make for an effective prosecution.  A de-certified election would make for a much more powerful prosecutorial case than a certified election.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 01, 2021, 04:40:25 pm
Congratulations, this response will do a lot for your credibility here.

 :shrug:

Your opinion of my credibility is worth a bucket of warm piss.


Quote
I've gone on record on this thread also wanting prosecutions.  Were I a defense attorney and the state legislature failed to de-certify I would certainly argue that my client had simply participated in the process which the state legislature certified; and that the state legislature had confirmed the fitness of the process, and my client's participation, by leaving that certification in force.

So if you're serious about wanting prosecutions, you might want to think through to what would make for an effective prosecution.  A de-certified election would make for a much more powerful prosecutorial case than a certified election.

I guess. More powerful would be concrete evidence of actual wrongdoing. not just a bunch of forums who "get their spidey sense tingly" because of some discrepancies.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 04:52:20 pm
:shrug:

Your opinion of my credibility is worth a bucket of warm piss.
You don't know when to quit digging, do you?  I'm not talking about my opinion of your credibility.
Quote
I guess. More powerful would be concrete evidence of actual wrongdoing. not just a bunch of forums who "get their spidey sense tingly" because of some discrepancies.
A de-certified election would be concrete evidence of actual wrongdoing.  The sort of prosecution you claim to want would actually be based on "a bunch of forums who 'get their spidey sense tingly' because of some discrepancies."
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 01, 2021, 05:14:09 pm
Where's the provision in the Constitution to decertify an election? Sheesh, I thought liberals were dumb...

1. I don't think there is any.

2. You are correct....except they are not liberals (liberals are great people).  I think you are referencing left wingers....there is a huge difference.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 05:43:19 pm
It'd basically be masturbation then? Nice to know.

If it's true, i'd want prosecutions. State level office can prosecute.

I think if you lived in AZ and had your vote cancelled by fraud, you might have a different opinion.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Elderberry on October 01, 2021, 06:02:16 pm
I wonder how many states show a remedy of Quo Warranto, like Michigan does.

Quote
MICHIGAN ELECTION LAW (EXCERPT)
Act 116 of 1954


168.861 Fraudulent or illegal voting, or tampering with ballots or ballot boxes; remedy by quo warranto.

Sec. 861.
   For fraudulent or illegal voting, or tampering with the ballots or ballot boxes before a recount by the board of county canvassers, the remedy by quo warranto shall remain in full force, together with any other remedies now existing.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 08:05:28 pm
I hope that you get that I completely agree with you.

I am getting ready to start a thread on tracking efforts to do that in Arizona.

What I don't go for is pushing bleating words like steal, corrupt, illegal, and decertification.  They sounds more like battle cries and I, for one, am sick and tired of the ugly (and frankly stupid) state of politics. 


I kinda get all that, though 'steal, corrupt, and illegal seem to be perfectly usable words when illegal or disqualified ballots exceed the win margin by several times...  It may not seem as polite as you like, but that is picking nits... totally legit. Decertification... well on that I probably agree, with the exception of state offices and senate/congressional offices... I raised the question as to whether that is legit or not.

But I get the tone thing. Try standing and defending Conservatism against all comers - You won't be popular. Even here. I have pissed off real good friends... maybe permanently, because I would not move.

Quote
Even the dialogue on this board smacks of some kind of "cancel" if you don't agree with their particular POV (and that does not even mean you had a different one.....you might not have one at all....but  that is still wrong.....Hitler would be proud).

Yea, the 'team play' is hard to get over. the rah, rah thing... Especially when you are trying to deconstruct something committed by 'our side' of things. I miss FR back in the day when any subject could be torn to pieces and the parts identified without the need to align with the true believers.

It is what it is... And it is better here than about anywhere... But I long ago walked off from politics as a functional means. Don't hardly see the news except what I get by osmosis here. Folks get bent up over the weirdest things, and it just ain't worth the effort to care about it.

So I will stand for none of it, and focus on the philosophy. I will defend Conservatism. I will not defend politics.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 08:51:15 pm
I'm sure you know just as well as the rest of us that the Tenth Amendment reserves to the States, and the people, all powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government.  If the legislature of AZ decides that it no longer has confidence in the result it previously certified and sent to the joint session, as the sole determiner of election procedure in AZ it has all authority to say so by de-certifying.

Even if every state that certified D EVs chose to de-certify, Biden would remain at the Resolute desk; one can reasonably argue that de-certifying would be merely symbolic, with no real impact.  AZ, PA, GA, and other states simply screwed up by certifying results that came from procedures that are not trustworthy.  Although moot in terms of immediate impact, de-certifying would say clearly that existing electoral procedures are unacceptable.  If the AZ legislature chose to de-certify, they would really have no choice but to reform their election laws.

I take no position on whether or not a proposed de-cert would stand a chance in the AZ legislature.  In a sense de-cert would be an admission of failure by the state legislature, an admission it had allowed untrustworthy procedures to remain in effect.  For that reason alone the proposal might be a non-starter.

I will stand in mild disagreement with you @HoustonSam , on the federal certification matter. I think it is designed to be decisive. I think the founders did not want a pissing match. I think they wanted a very decisive end - There is a time for challenging the vote, and the certification, but that is a nearly impossible task in the time allotted. There is further time to challenge the vote at the state, 18 months, I believe, but that does not effect the certification, as the time to challenge that has long ago come and gone.

So I believe decertification to be unconstitutional - The state assigned electors, those electors were received,  and at that precise moment, the state assigned its powers to those electors, certified those electors as duly assigned representatives, and handed off their duty to the federal system. Within the federal system the physical vote of the electors is cast - Different system.

As I have said before, there may be value in decertification in the lower offices - Certainly in the state offices, and perhaps in the case of US Senate and House (I don't know). For those offices decertification may hold some value - I have asked that question - but in the matter of the president and vice president, that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 09:30:51 pm
I will stand in mild disagreement with you @HoustonSam , on the federal certification matter. I think it is designed to be decisive. I think the founders did not want a pissing match. I think they wanted a very decisive end - There is a time for challenging the vote, and the certification, but that is a nearly impossible task in the time allotted. There is further time to challenge the vote at the state, 18 months, I believe, but that does not effect the certification, as the time to challenge that has long ago come and gone.

So I believe decertification to be unconstitutional - The state assigned electors, those electors were received,  and at that precise moment, the state assigned its powers to those electors, certified those electors as duly assigned representatives, and handed off their duty to the federal system. Within the federal system the physical vote of the electors is cast - Different system.

As I have said before, there may be value in decertification in the lower offices - Certainly in the state offices, and perhaps in the case of US Senate and House (I don't know). For those offices decertification may hold some value - I have asked that question - but in the matter of the president and vice president, that ship has sailed.

Your position is certainly reasonable my friend @roamer_1 .  Action by AZ or even by a majority of states could not actually remove Biden from office - that ship has indeed sailed, and crossed beyond the horizon, due in large part to the legislatures of several states being asleep at the switch regarding how votes are actually collected and counted.  So as you and I have agreed here before, the state legislatures really have only themselves to blame, and I'm not sure many of them will admit that any blame is actually coming their way, particularly if it raises questions about their own most recent election victories.

I'm advocating de-certification - perhaps a resolution rather than an act - as a formal statement that the result was not trustworthy, to drive reform action and to bolster any prosecutions by making clear that actual harm was done.  And while a Federal Court might rule de-certification unconstitutional, personally I would find that ruling spurious, again for reasons on which you and I have previously agreed here - the state legislature is the sole arbiter of election procedure in the state.  And since de-cert would be a statement rather than an act, I don't see what the meaning would be of declaring it unconstitutional.

Of course we're merely disagreeing on how, not on what.  I think we're both convinced by the AZ audit report that actual crime led to actual harm, and that prosecutions and reform are both needed.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 09:47:10 pm
@HoustonSam

Quote
I'm advocating de-certification - perhaps a resolution rather than an act - as a formal statement that the result was not trustworthy, to drive reform action and to bolster any prosecutions by making clear that actual harm was done.

Two important things should soon follow.  I would expect the pressure would be ramped up on Legislators and Governors to pass real election reform, and perhaps we can see an end to the "Automatic Certifications" that have been going on since forever.  People in charge are encouraged to just look the other way when something stinks now, and this might change that entire POV.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 09:57:23 pm
@HoustonSam

Two important things should soon follow.  I would expect the pressure would be ramped up on Legislators and Governors to pass real election reform, and perhaps we can see an end to the "Automatic Certifications" that have been going on since forever.  People in charge are encouraged to just look the other way when something stinks now, and this might change that entire POV.

If R participants, and those who select them, come with backbone and insist on credible results they can put a stop to that habit already.  Maybe these events will fire up enough Rs to achieve that.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 01, 2021, 10:11:18 pm
Good luck with that.  A word of advice:  Don't rubbish what people are doing, like you have done so far with the Audit, every step of the way.  If folks are willing to put up with that they'd all have subscriptions to the Arizona Republic, too.

I don't recall rubbishing anything.

I have pointed out where I think certain language is not helpful and why.

It seems you are the ones prone to attack those who might not have bought off on your POV.

I don't have an "opposing" point of view.

I have one that is different and in many cases they are not very strong.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 01, 2021, 10:42:50 pm
I don't recall rubbishing anything.
 
I have pointed out where I think certain language is not helpful and why.

It seems you are the ones prone to attack those who might not have bought off on your POV.

I don't have an "opposing" point of view.

I have one that is different and in many cases they are not very strong.

Whatever, it's a free speech forum and I look forward to seeing that thread.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 10:46:04 pm
As per the usual @HoustonSam , we are close enough together to be talking across a small wrought iron table with a couple Mason jars full of sweet tea.

Your position is certainly reasonable my friend @roamer_1 .  Action by AZ or even by a majority of states could not actually remove Biden from office - that ship has indeed sailed, and crossed beyond the horizon, due in large part to the legislatures of several states being asleep at the switch regarding how votes are actually collected and counted.  So as you and I have agreed here before, the state legislatures really have only themselves to blame, and I'm not sure many of them will admit that any blame is actually coming their way, particularly if it raises questions about their own most recent election victories.



Precisely right, and what will be done with the emphasized part is the interesting bit.

Quote
I'm advocating de-certification - perhaps a resolution rather than an act - as a formal statement that the result was not trustworthy, to drive reform action and to bolster any prosecutions by making clear that actual harm was done.  And while a Federal Court might rule de-certification unconstitutional, personally I would find that ruling spurious, again for reasons on which you and I have previously agreed here - the state legislature is the sole arbiter of election procedure in the state.  And since de-cert would be a statement rather than an act, I don't see what the meaning would be of declaring it unconstitutional.


This is the fun part - I am not exactly against an act to decertify... It is within the 18 month window - or was begun and the official investigation started (by the call to audit) within that time...

But I will again repeat with emphasis, that it is the down-ticket that could yet produce fruit from that act. Does that act throw the election of US Senators and Congressmen by those same illegal votes? Can that cause a recall? And how far down-ticket does the calumny extend, and can all of that be overturned?

And what remedy? A recall and a mulligan election? I dunno. But all that is where the traction is.

At least one would expect a tightening of election code, and an insistence on transparent auditing in the future... and that is sure to be a gain wrt election integrity, which should concern everyone, Democrat, Republican or otherwise...

Quote
Of course we're merely disagreeing on how, not on what.  I think we're both convinced by the AZ audit report that actual crime led to actual harm, and that prosecutions and reform are both needed.

That's right. At this point it seems to be a bare fact.  happy77 :patriot: :beer:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 10:50:55 pm
@HoustonSam

Two important things should soon follow.  I would expect the pressure would be ramped up on Legislators and Governors to pass real election reform, and perhaps we can see an end to the "Automatic Certifications" that have been going on since forever.  People in charge are encouraged to just look the other way when something stinks now, and this might change that entire POV.

*FACTS*
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 11:04:37 pm
But I will again repeat with emphasis, that it is the down-ticket that could yet produce fruit from that act. Does that act throw the election of US Senators and Congressmen by those same illegal votes? Can that cause a recall? And how far down-ticket does the calumny extend, and can all of that be overturned?

Very fair questions.  Even as I advocate for de-cert, I have to admit it might be a can of worms we would regret opening. Were I arguing on behalf of the Ds I would cherry pick an auditing state with a majority of recently-elected R office holders and insist that de-cert applied to *all* election results, and that *state* office holders could be subject to removal from office depending on the outcome.

I hope the Rs would say "bring it on, we just want credible results", but I'm really not sure they would.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 01, 2021, 11:10:03 pm
Very fair questions.  Even as I advocate for de-cert, I have to admit it might be a can of worms we would regret opening. Were I arguing on behalf of the Ds I would cherry pick an auditing state with a majority of recently-elected R office holders and insist that de-cert applied to *all* election results, and that *state* office holders could be subject to removal from office depending on the outcome.

I hope the Rs would say "bring it on, we just want credible results", but I'm really not sure they would.

I for one would be fine with that in a show-up-in-person, purple-finger sorta way...  happy77
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HoustonSam on October 01, 2021, 11:15:43 pm
I for one would be fine with that in a show-up-in-person, purple-finger sorta way...  happy77

You and me both.  If the Ds want to organize car pools to bring all theirs to the polls, let them do so; it would still be in person and with a purple finger immediately afterward.  And no one would have to pay for any of those "I Voted" decals they typically give out.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 06, 2021, 03:03:00 pm
I for one would be fine with that in a show-up-in-person, purple-finger sorta way...  happy77

Dems won't like it.

They' ll have to dig up 10% of their voting constituency to get them to the polls.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 06, 2021, 03:29:40 pm
Dems won't like it.

They' ll have to dig up 10% of their voting constituency to get them to the polls.

You ain't telling me nothing... my grandparents in Chicago started voting Democrat after they died... I haven't spoken with em since!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 02:49:51 pm
Interesting Article:

You only get three freebees at the site.

It's a ramped up killshot aimed at the "stop the steal crow" and an example of the garbage that is peppering the net.

https://newrepublic.com/article/163796/media-arizona-audit-bidens-victory

In a crowded field, the months-long “audit” of the presidential votes in Arizona’s largest county may be the dumbest political story of 2021. The extent to which the word audit applies to the zany shenanigans that Arizona has endured this year is a matter of debate. A better term might be a transparent sham, undertaken by bad-faith actors promulgating easily disprovable lies about the legitimacy of the presidential election. The firm conducting the audit was literally named “Cyber Ninjas”—a detail so absurd it essentially serves as a punchline that doesn’t need a setup. The audit itself was silly, transparently partisan, and sinister, insofar as it didn’t really matter that it was obviously bogus: The whole point was to keep alive the myth that the 2020 election had been stolen from Donald Trump.

In the end, the Cyber Ninjas couldn’t pull it off. Their long-awaited report, released late last week, acknowledged that Joe Biden did, in fact, win Maricopa County. Not only that, he won it by a slightly larger margin than previously thought. If the audit was meant to prove the inherent illegitimacy of the 2020 election, it backfired. And for many in the press, it was a moment to spike the football. CNN’s John King wryly observed that it was a “death blow” to Trump’s “fraud fantasy.” Many outlets reported that it “confirmed” Joe Biden’s victory, as if such a thing were in doubt to begin with. Even The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board stepped in to suggest that enough is enough, asking, “When are Republicans going to quit playing this game?”

These reactions—whether jaded, gleeful, or exhausted—imply that there is some endpoint for Republican claims of fraud: that one day, the GOP will wake up and realize that Joe Biden really did win the election. There is no reason to believe that is the case. Indeed, reaction from the right has been nonplussed: Donald Trump is still claiming victory, while outlets on the right have focused on other sensational and unsupported claims, particularly that tens of thousands of “illegal” ballots were cast, even though election experts have widely disputed these conclusions. Coverage of the audit itself suggests that many news outlets still haven’t realized how to cover Republican efforts to undermine elections.


Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 02:52:33 pm
Interesting Article:

You only get three freebees at the site.

It's a ramped up killshot aimed at the "stop the steal crow" and an example of the garbage that is peppering the net.

https://newrepublic.com/article/163796/media-arizona-audit-bidens-victory

In a crowded field, the months-long “audit” of the presidential votes in Arizona’s largest county may be the dumbest political story of 2021. The extent to which the word audit applies to the zany shenanigans that Arizona has endured this year is a matter of debate. A better term might be a transparent sham, undertaken by bad-faith actors promulgating easily disprovable lies about the legitimacy of the presidential election. The firm conducting the audit was literally named “Cyber Ninjas”—a detail so absurd it essentially serves as a punchline that doesn’t need a setup. The audit itself was silly, transparently partisan, and sinister, insofar as it didn’t really matter that it was obviously bogus: The whole point was to keep alive the myth that the 2020 election had been stolen from Donald Trump.

In the end, the Cyber Ninjas couldn’t pull it off. Their long-awaited report, released late last week, acknowledged that Joe Biden did, in fact, win Maricopa County. Not only that, he won it by a slightly larger margin than previously thought. If the audit was meant to prove the inherent illegitimacy of the 2020 election, it backfired. And for many in the press, it was a moment to spike the football. CNN’s John King wryly observed that it was a “death blow” to Trump’s “fraud fantasy.” Many outlets reported that it “confirmed” Joe Biden’s victory, as if such a thing were in doubt to begin with. Even The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board stepped in to suggest that enough is enough, asking, “When are Republicans going to quit playing this game?”

These reactions—whether jaded, gleeful, or exhausted—imply that there is some endpoint for Republican claims of fraud: that one day, the GOP will wake up and realize that Joe Biden really did win the election. There is no reason to believe that is the case. Indeed, reaction from the right has been nonplussed: Donald Trump is still claiming victory, while outlets on the right have focused on other sensational and unsupported claims, particularly that tens of thousands of “illegal” ballots were cast, even though election experts have widely disputed these conclusions. Coverage of the audit itself suggests that many news outlets still haven’t realized how to cover Republican efforts to undermine elections.

Looks just like something a Democrat troll would post.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on October 07, 2021, 03:03:16 pm
Looks just like something a Democrat troll would post.
Maybe one day they'll accept that some people are still more inclined to believe their lying eyes instead of taking the word of a media that proven time after time it is ill disposed towards the truth. No matter how many lying rags they thrust in front of us.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 04:34:40 pm
Looks just like something a Democrat troll would post.

Does being a moron come to you naturally ?

Or do you practice at it. 

Did you not see where I called it garbage.

It's an example of what is all over the net.  IOW: whoever it is that is supposed to be posting the truth isn't getting it out there.....

And spare me the censorship meme.

The right (my side) simply does not have the same organized media apparutus that the left has.

And it is hurting us.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 04:35:58 pm
Maybe one day they'll accept that some people are still more inclined to believe their lying eyes instead of taking the word of a media that proven time after time it is ill disposed towards the truth. No matter how many lying rags they thrust in front of us.

Nobody thrust anything in front of you.

Someone is highliting the garbage that is out there.

They should have an I.Q. test to get on this board.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2021, 04:37:47 pm
Lighten up.  An Admin agrees the article you linked should be posted...we are not an echo chamber.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 04:40:28 pm
Lighten up.  An Admin agrees the article you linked should be posted...we are not an echo chamber.

Does this board have an ignore function ?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 04:42:30 pm
It's an example of what is all over the net.

It is also a position you originally agreed with until you started getting pushback.  Yet here you are again posting someone else saying it, and still not challenging a single premise of it.

For example:

Quote
outlets on the right have focused on other sensational and unsupported claims, particularly that tens of thousands of “illegal” ballots were cast

The audit itself proved that tens of thousands of illegal ballots were wrongly included in the election total, a crucial point that you have not once acknowledged.  To the contrary, you have denied that fact, arguing that the inclusion of illegal ballots did not de-legitimize the results.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 04:45:18 pm
It is also a position you originally agreed with until you started getting pushback.  Yet here you are again posting someone else saying it, and still not challenging a single premise of it.

For example:

The audit itself proved that tens of thousands of illegal ballots were wrongly included in the election total, a crucial point that you have not once acknowledged.  To the contrary, you have denied that fact, arguing that the inclusion of illegal ballots did not de-legitimize the results.

Quote me where I said I agreed with that.

I posted that as an example of what is out on the net. 

So stop your lying.

And, I am not interested in challenging any of it since I don't engage fanatics like you in conversations that I consider to be worthless.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2021, 04:46:32 pm
Does this board have an ignore function ?

Yes, in your Profile there's an Iggy List.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 04:48:01 pm
Yes, in your Profile there's an Iggy List.

Thank you.

Headed there now.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 05:11:37 pm
Lighten up.  An Admin agrees the article you linked should be posted...we are not an echo chamber.

Did anyone here suggest that it shouldn't?  Didn't think so.  I have no problem with posting the article.  But I will certainly call out any poster for expressing agreement with its contents, just as this poster has done.

I have never been one who backed censoring any content or banning any poster, nor have I ever used the 'ignore' feature.  I relish the opportunity to challenge contrary ideas based on merit and truth, and will always reject the lazy approach of simply making things go away that I don't like.  Personally, I have a hard time reconciling statements about Biden legitimately winning Arizona fair and square with the mountains of contrary evidence revealed from the audit.  But that just me.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 05:19:58 pm
Quote me where I said I agreed with that.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,443384.msg2503571.html#msg2503571
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2021, 05:21:10 pm
Lets turn down the heat.....
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 05:48:55 pm
Lets turn down the heat.....

Consider it on ice.

(https://dm0qx8t0i9gc9.cloudfront.net/thumbnails/video/HJpjKMlmgiw923pte/videoblocks-young-woman-ice-skating-on-a-frozen-lake-on-a-freezing-winter-day-legs-of-skater-on-winter-ice-rink-in-outdoors-people-winter-sport-and-leisure-concept_svbnpeo6b_thumbnail-1080_01.png)

But in the future, any time some left-wing trash article appears on this board (regardless of who posted it), I reserve the right to categorize that article as something a Democrat would post.  Capisce?
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2021, 05:54:41 pm
Consider it on ice.

(https://dm0qx8t0i9gc9.cloudfront.net/thumbnails/video/HJpjKMlmgiw923pte/videoblocks-young-woman-ice-skating-on-a-frozen-lake-on-a-freezing-winter-day-legs-of-skater-on-winter-ice-rink-in-outdoors-people-winter-sport-and-leisure-concept_svbnpeo6b_thumbnail-1080_01.png)

But in the future, any time some left-wing trash article appears on this board (regardless of who posted it), I reserve the right to categorize that article as something a Democrat would post.  Capisce?

That's fair!  I only ask that we criticize the article (as it deserves it), but let's not attack the Briefer who posts it....
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 07, 2021, 05:59:40 pm
That's fair!  I only ask that we criticize the article (as it deserves it)

Which I did.  I said it looks like something a Democrat troll would post.  And for that, I was called a moron.

Looks just like something a Democrat troll would post.

Does being a moron come to you naturally ?

Or do you practice at it.

If you find my posts disruptive or detrimental to this forum, just say the word, and I will venture elsewhere.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2021, 06:02:02 pm
Which I did.  I said it looks like something a Democrat troll would post.  And for that, I was called a moron.


If you find my posts disruptive or detrimental to this forum, just say the word, and I will venture elsewhere.

Don't you dare!  It's just lil ol me, trying to prevent forest fires....and what I wrote above applies to all, not just one side.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on October 07, 2021, 06:30:18 pm
Which I did.  I said it looks like something a Democrat troll would post.  And for that, I was called a moron.


If you find my posts disruptive or detrimental to this forum, just say the word, and I will venture elsewhere.

We've lost too many already. Don't do it.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on October 07, 2021, 06:40:02 pm
We've lost too many already. Don't do it.
what I do not understand is why the heat seems to be higher now than it was before we had all this evidence of electoral shenanigans. We all should be seeing more eye to eye now than we were in November of 2020.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 06:42:53 pm
We've lost too many already. Don't do it.

I've been on more than a few boards where the fantatics drive off everyone who does not pass their purity test.

You see it in the party too.

I've had no problem telling them what I think on boards and to their faces.

They don't get to tell me what I think and they certainly don't get to tell me how I should think.

You might want to consider that when you beg them to stay.

I used the ignore function, but (unlike other boards) I still have to endure reading their divel when they are quoted.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on October 07, 2021, 06:55:37 pm
I've been on more than a few boards where the fantatics drive off everyone who does not pass their purity test.

You see it in the party too.

I've had no problem telling them what I think on boards and to their faces.

They don't get to tell me what I think and they certainly don't get to tell me how I should think.

You might want to consider that when you beg them to stay.

I used the ignore function, but (unlike other boards) I still have to endure reading their divel when they are quoted.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 07, 2021, 07:00:27 pm
That's fair!  I only ask that we criticize the article (as it deserves it), but let's not attack the Briefer who posts it....

Why not expand your thinking ?

Stop for a moment....who agrees with the article...nobody.  I never have never despite delusional claims to the contrary.

Ask yourself....why was this posted ?

Consider maybe....just maybe.....you know, a slight possibility....that someone does not like the fact that the leaders of my side don't seem to understand that we are seen as not having an organized counter to the garbage the media puts out and is greatly concerned that such comments by someone on the right (such as were quoted in the OP) only work against us as the LWM races to broadcast this to independents who (for better or worse) are substantial voting block and who we need to convince to join our causes.

You might just want to think about that.

It has zero to do with the substance of the argument.  It is all about how it gets painted.

You said it will always be that way.....get over it.

Please recall how Obama was elected a senator.  The media got his opponents divorce proceedings unsealed and wiped him out.  The media buried him.

And then there was Todd Akin.  A guy who really was pretty harmless.  But said something really stupid and got smashed by the media.  He was actually on track to win.  He was a descent guy and had many social conservative views. 

And his statements got him slaughtered.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: sneakypete on October 07, 2021, 07:45:16 pm
Arizona should decertify their election results since it is now clear that their previous certification included illegal votes far in excess of the margin of error.  It won't change the national election, but it would go a long way towards restoring election integrity within its own State.

@Hoodat

Even more importantly,IMNSHO,it might start a trend by giving other states the push they need to do the same thing.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: skeeter on October 07, 2021, 07:59:05 pm
@Hoodat

Even more importantly,IMNSHO,it might start a trend by giving other states the push they need to do the same thing.
Doing the right thing, based upon the best available information, is always a good policy & the consequences of doing the right thing are always ultimately desirable. Used to be common sense.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on October 07, 2021, 08:29:03 pm

Time for Arizona GOP to break out the S'More flavored Schnapps ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3IhAPMzVQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3IhAPMzVQ)
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2021, 10:27:18 pm

quoted from the article:
In the end, the Cyber Ninjas couldn’t pull it off. Their long-awaited report, released late last week, acknowledged that Joe Biden did, in fact, win Maricopa County. Not only that, he won it by a slightly larger margin than previously thought. If the audit was meant to prove the inherent illegitimacy of the 2020 election, it backfired. And for many in the press, it was a moment to spike the football. CNN’s John King wryly observed that it was a “death blow” to Trump’s “fraud fantasy.” Many outlets reported that it “confirmed” Joe Biden’s victory, as if such a thing were in doubt to begin with. Even The Wall Street Journal’s editorial board stepped in to suggest that enough is enough, asking, “When are Republicans going to quit playing this game?”


See, that's just it.... That is not what the report says.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DB on October 07, 2021, 10:32:06 pm

See, that's just it.... That is not what the report says.

Yep. It is a total twisting of the truth. The claims made are a serious logic fail. And when you are down to arguing basic logic all that is left is a pig and mud.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2021, 10:35:41 pm
The right (my side) simply does not have the same organized media apparutus that the left has.

And it is hurting us.

What is hurting you is that right facing media have become the same sort of shills as the MSM.

That is the single major mistake that came with pimping Tumpy up.

I certainly do not believe ANY press anymore... Which is why I waited for an actual implement of the state of AZ to be employed. Evidence tallied with evidentiary value in mind. Such a mill grinds slowly, bit to an infinitely fine grain. Give it time.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2021, 10:47:08 pm
Yep. It is a total twisting of the truth. The claims made are a serious logic fail. And when you are down to arguing basic logic all that is left is a pig and mud.

That's right, but @HikerGuy83 has a point... Articles like these are used by my batsh*t crazy liberal sister to 'prove' how mislead I am - Even though the record here shows plainly that I didn't listen to the gossip rags on the right.

She is bloody well sure the Right, lead by Tumpy, are assembling a tyranny even as we speak.

One must consider how she came to that conclusion... And it is not hard to see. The leftward-facing media bubble and the rightward-facing media bubble keep the two sides at a fevered pitch.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 08, 2021, 01:36:44 am

See, that's just it.... That is not what the report says.

Are you missing the point ?

Nobody is countering this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2021, 01:39:29 am
Are you missing the point ?

Nobody is countering this kind of thing.

Yes they are... But only on the right... preaching to the choir... And so it is. And it is the very same from the left, and never the twain shall meet. That is the utter danger of propaganda instead of journalism.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 08, 2021, 01:41:30 am
That's right, but @HikerGuy83 has a point... Articles like these are used by my batsh*t crazy liberal sister to 'prove' how mislead I am - Even though the record here shows plainly that I didn't listen to the gossip rags on the right.

She is bloody well sure the Right, lead by Tumpy, are assembling a tyranny even as we speak.

One must consider how she came to that conclusion... And it is not hard to see. The leftward-facing media bubble and the rightward-facing media bubble keep the two sides at a fevered pitch.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I don't have the time I hope to have soon.  But, the little time I have says that the only counters are the ones the left has been able to smear pretty well.

Fox may be popular with the right, but it does not do itself any favors with the likes of Hannity out front. 

I used to really enjoy Bill O'Riley and Greta V.S.  They were much more balanced in their approach.  Even O'Riley could get Bill Maher to come on his show.

And speaking of Maher: He's pretty open about the moronic lies of the left.

I hope to find and support orgs that don't participate in the hyperbolic garbage that is awash on the internet these days.

It is necessary because people are dropping away from the news and there is a great opportunity to fill that vaccum if it isn't name calling and conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 08, 2021, 01:42:31 am
Yes they are... But only on the right... preaching to the choir... And so it is. And it is the very same from the left, and never the twain shall meet. That is the utter danger of propaganda instead of journalism.

Please share how you think such tripe is being countered. 

I am always interested to learn what is out there....that I might be missing.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: HikerGuy83 on October 08, 2021, 01:48:25 am
What is hurting you is that right facing media have become the same sort of shills as the MSM.

That is the single major mistake that came with pimping Tumpy up.

I certainly do not believe ANY press anymore... Which is why I waited for an actual implement of the state of AZ to be employed. Evidence tallied with evidentiary value in mind. Such a mill grinds slowly, bit to an infinitely fine grain. Give it time.

You are not alone in not trusting anything.

In my estimation, this is where we have great opportunity.

But if you come out and scream the election should be decrrtified....you lose a lot of your potential audience.

I have been able to talk to lefties on a very even tone and discuss things in a way they don't consider (explained the 10th amendment and the concept of federalism to a woman from Minn about six months ago and she was floored.  She thought the idea that she could go to her state and make it a left wing Utopia was fantastic.  That Kansas didn't need to do the same for her to enjoy what she wanted....that made all the sense in the world to her. 

Then she asked how it was going in our effort to promote this stuff.

Imagine how I felt as I explained that today's federal GOP is just as corrupt as the federal dems in centralizing power and pushing in the direction of a complete nanny state.

There are many out there like her.

They are quiet.

They are not going to share opinions without a lot of trush.

They are largely unaware of the potential of this country and each state.

They are generally more prone to be discourged by the hyperbolic B.S. on both sides.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2021, 01:52:43 am
I hope to find and support orgs that don't participate in the hyperbolic garbage that is awash on the internet these days.

It is necessary because people are dropping away from the news and there is a great opportunity to fill that vaccum if it isn't name calling and conspiracy theories.

Good luck with that... I have already pretty well walked off. The truth lies dead in the streets and nobody gives a sh*t. It's all about the tongue waggers, gossipers, and 240 char punchline 'news'... A rumor takes flight and is headline news around the world in minutes.

I still trust Shapiro and Daily Wire pretty far. But he is the last bastion that I find myself believing without scrutiny. The rest - ALL the rest - Have been caught lying through their teeth, or at best not providing for due diligence.

So ping me if you find something reliable and unspun. Because in my mind, that is a unicorn.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2021, 02:12:07 am
Please share how you think such tripe is being countered. 

I am always interested to learn what is out there....that I might be missing.

I am not going to go back through it all - This thread suffices. Plenty of links hereon counter the left-wing propaganda.
It just doesn't matter. Like I said, preaching to the choir. None of it crosses over to left wing news, and never will.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2021, 02:21:45 am
You are not alone in not trusting anything.

In my estimation, this is where we have great opportunity.

To exploit that opportunity is to require truth in reporting from both sides. And that is not going to happen. The die is cast.

Quote
But if you come out and scream the election should be decrrtified....you lose a lot of your potential audience.


That depends upon the argument and your interpretation of what de-cert will do... I know it will not effect the presidential and vice presidential vote, as that cannot be de-certified. That has already been cast in stone.

But there is profit and justice in decertification otherwise, possibly from US House and Senate races all the way down to county dog catcher... And there are criminal and legal ramifications too. I think if your eye is on Tumpy regaining the White House, decertification is a fallacy. But for all the rest of what it will do...

Quote
I have been able to talk to lefties on a very even tone and discuss things in a way they don't consider (explained the 10th amendment and the concept of federalism to a woman from Minn about six months ago and she was floored.  She thought the idea that she could go to her state and make it a left wing Utopia was fantastic.  That Kansas didn't need to do the same for her to enjoy what she wanted....that made all the sense in the world to her. 

Then she asked how it was going in our effort to promote this stuff.

Imagine how I felt as I explained that today's federal GOP is just as corrupt as the federal dems in centralizing power and pushing in the direction of a complete nanny state.

There are many out there like her.

They are quiet.

They are not going to share opinions without a lot of trush.

They are largely unaware of the potential of this country and each state.

They are generally more prone to be discourged by the hyperbolic B.S. on both sides.

Like I said, good luck with that. The propaganda machines on BOTH sides will have to be deconstructed, and actual journalism insisted upon...And that is a fat chance kinda thing.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2021, 04:52:58 am
What crystal ball do you have that we don't that tells you how democrats will respond to securing election integrity ?

Please share.
Just their resistance to voter ID should be one serious clue.
Motor voter schemes, and mail out ballots are two others.
In the absence of assuring that the person is registered, alive, and identified, all can be used to facilitate fraudulent activity.
It is no accident that Democrats are opposed to such accountability.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: DefiantMassRINO on October 08, 2021, 07:42:52 pm
In case it hadn't been previously posted, for those who want to decide for themselves.

Cyber Ninjas releases findings on Maricopa County election audit
https://www.azfamily.com/news/politics/arizona_politics/cyber-ninjas-final-report-on-maricopa-county-election-audit/article_d36f347a-1d6c-11ec-9bcd-3f7997be88dd.html
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Hoodat on October 08, 2021, 08:01:42 pm
Just their resistance to voter ID should be one serious clue.
Motor voter schemes, and mail out ballots are two others.
In the absence of assuring that the person is registered, alive, and identified, all can be used to facilitate fraudulent activity.
It is no accident that Democrats are opposed to such accountability.

Just as they are opposed to de-certification.
Title: Re: Arizona State Rep. Mark Finchem Calls for the 2020 Election Results to be Decertified Based on t
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2021, 10:02:48 pm
Just as they are opposed to de-certification.
The obvious problem is that those results should never have been certified in the first place.

In lieu of that, though, there are steps which could avoid all this unpleasantness, and they should be demanded.

Clearing voter rolls a month before the election of those who have died.
Removing those who have moved out of the precinct or county would be good.
Running a check through the records to look for multiple people at the same address might trip a flag here and there.

Verifying addresses to make sure there is something there besides a vacant lot, or at least a valid address.
If chains that deliver food orders can verify addresses (granted, they are not at 100%, but pretty close), I would think a board of elections could. If you live in the precinct, you should have a physical address, even if you get your mail at a box.

Verifying citizenship would be nice, too.

All this is aimed at verifying the eligibility of voters beforehand, especially if ballots are mailed out because: COVID, which will rear its head in time for the midterms, guaranteed.