The Briefing Room
General Category => World News => Topic started by: rangerrebew on July 22, 2014, 01:17:17 pm
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Ukraine Separatists Didn’t Launch That Missile
by Whoopie • 20 July, 2014 • Crime, Military • 0 Comments
Putin’s attempt to deflect responsibility for the shoot down of the civilian passenger jet Malaysia flight MH17 by blaming it on Ukrainian separatists is a sad joke.
Aside from the fact that these separatists wouldn’t have access to such sophisticated weapon systems but for Russia supplying them, the question is, who pushed the launch button and who gave the order to fire.
Here’s what the guidance and launch panel inside a Buk SA11 missile system looks like…
(http://blurbrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Inside_of_a_Buk-SAM1.jpg)
Does anyone seriously believe some swingin’ dick Ukrainian farmer could jump behind the controls, track, target and launch a successful missile strike on a plane flying 5 miles high and 50 miles away with little or no training?
The reason Russian weapons are so popular with terrorists the world over is that they’re designed so that even an illiterate peasant can operate them. However, this isn’t an AK-47 or RPG-7.
The typical soldier assigned to this task would require higher than average IQ and months of intensive training in front of a simulator to operate it efficiently. The missiles weigh 1,400 lbs. requiring a crane to load them and a team of technicians and mechanics to maintain the vehicle and electronics.
I highly doubt the Russians would hand over a system like this to unskilled dolts, toss them the keys and then walk away. Whoever was sitting behind that control panel was a Russian soldier and whoever gave him the order to fire was a Russian officer.
Ukrainian separatists may have been first on the scene expecting to find a downed Ukrainian military cargo plane, only to find civilian bodies instead. But the Russian military bears full responsibility.
Here’s a video demonstrating the Buk in operation and it’s crew launching a missile…
Read more at http://blurbrain.com/ukraine-separatists-didnt-launch-missile/#2QCJXQjXY6diomby.99
Read more at http://blurbrain.com/ukraine-separatists-didnt-launch-missile/#2QCJXQjXY6diomby.99
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Putin’s attempt to deflect responsibility for the shoot down of the civilian passenger jet Malaysia flight MH17 by blaming it on Ukrainian separatists is a sad joke.
Did Putin blame the shootdown on the separatists? I hadn't seen that being reported.
Also haven't seen much emphasis on the Ukrainian military fighter that was within air-to-air missile range of MH17 just before it fell out of the sky...
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Did Putin blame the shootdown on the separatists? I hadn't seen that being reported.
Also haven't seen much emphasis on the Ukrainian military fighter that was within air-to-air missile range of MH17 just before it fell out of the sky...
The latest I've heard is that Russia is still suggesting that the Ukraine forces may have shot it down. But they are back-peddling. Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation after the wording was changed from "shot down" to "downed". And the Russians are reporting on Ukrainian air force strikes near the downed plane.
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The latest I've heard is that Russia is still suggesting that the Ukraine forces may have shot it down. But they are back-peddling. Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation after the wording was changed from "shot down" to "downed". And the Russians are reporting on Ukrainian air force strikes near the downed plane.
I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.
They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...
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I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.
They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...
I do think the separatists are acting a tad too guilty, and I doubt the black boxes are going to be much help. If legitimate investigators on the ground find no missile fragments, then I'd have to think Russia is more than just a little involved.
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I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.
They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...
I think that site has been sanitized in a way only the KGB could organize. I don't think we will ever find out more than we know right now, the black boxes will tell them exactly nothing about who shot that plane down, and this will sink and eventually disappear into the obscurity of our collective memory hole.
I do wonder what Obama's response would be if Putin were blocking a fundraiser.....
:smokin:
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I do think the separatists are acting a tad too guilty, and I doubt the black boxes are going to be much help. If legitimate investigators on the ground find no missile fragments, then I'd have to think Russia is more than just a little involved.
Remember that you are being fed the western-media version of 'acting guilty'.
I think I have developed a full-blown aversion to believing anything the western-media tells me. Having access to the other side's version makes the msm-version so obviously one-sided that I just automatically believe they're lying to me...
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Remember that you are being fed the western-media version of 'acting guilty'.
I think I have developed a full-blown aversion to believing anything the western-media tells me. Having access to the other side's version makes the msm-version so obviously one-sided that I just automatically believe they're lying to me...
Even on Russia Today, they are carefully parsing their words. They aren't blaming the separatists, and seem only to be suggesting there may be another side to the story. The smoking gun (so to speak) should be the missile pieces. If there aren't any, then yes, I would consider that a strong indication of separatist or Russian guilt. One Russian comment I heard was that the Ukrainian government control tower redirected the plane to where it was hit. If so, a point for the Russian side.
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Even on Russia Today, they are carefully parsing their words. They aren't blaming the separatists, and seem only to be suggesting there may be another side to the story. The smoking gun (so to speak) should be the missile pieces. If there aren't any, then yes, I would consider that a strong indication of separatist or Russian guilt. One Russian comment I heard was that the Ukrainian government control tower redirected the plane to where it was hit. If so, a point for the Russian side.
Um, no. The lack of missile pieces may explain why there was no smoke-trail coming down. There was no missile.
And yes, the Ukrainian air-traffic control did divert MH17. Airliners can't just change course because they feel like it.
It may seem that they are 'carefully parsing' their words because (unlike the msm) they are only reporting what they know rather than what they want you to believe.
Used to be known as journalism back in the olden days...
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I think that site has been sanitized in a way only the KGB could organize. I don't think we will ever find out more than we know right now, the black boxes will tell them exactly nothing about who shot that plane down, and this will sink and eventually disappear into the obscurity of our collective memory hole.
I do wonder what Obama's response would be if Putin were blocking a fundraiser.....
:smokin:
We have had a few stories of "It's too dangerous for the investigators." It's a decent size area to sanitize, but it is certainly doable in the time they had.
I'm troubled by a couple of conflicting reports - it could be the usual early reporting fog of war thing though, so fist full of salt with these comments/notes.
The pictures show very definite penetration holes from a close explosion. You recognize them the first time you get one between your feet. They certainly can be faked, but the pattern looks right.
The lack of smoke trail, as Dan said. She went down under power, with the cockpit gone, not on fire. That means laser or radar guided missile, not a heat seeker, which would take out an engine, not the nose. Those are not cheap and, despite the brisk arms trade, not readily available to Joe Rebel.
The bodies being mostly naked or in shredded clothing and scattered over a wide area. Symptomatic of explosive decompression, and possibly additional evidence that the cockpit was taken out. Some of the other pictures support this idea, the airframe has been ripped apart, by the looks of it.
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Um, no. The lack of missile pieces may explain why there was no smoke-trail coming down. There was no missile.
My understanding is that if the missile exploded near the aircraft, there might not be any smoke trail. But examination of the wreckage will show whether there was an explosion from within.
And yes, the Ukrainian air-traffic control did divert MH17. Airliners can't just change course because they feel like it.
It may seem that they are 'carefully parsing' their words because (unlike the msm) they are only reporting what they know rather than what they want you to believe.
Used to be known as journalism back in the olden days...
So you're suggesting the Russian media and spokespersons are more trustworthy than the West?
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My understanding is that if the missile exploded near the aircraft, there might not be any smoke trail.
Well, that's the claim anyway.
So you're suggesting the Russian media and spokespersons are more trustworthy than the West?
Well, the western-msm is certainly pleased that you think the Russians are less trustworthy.
Think about it...
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Well, that's the claim anyway.
Well, the western-msm is certainly pleased that you think the Russians are less trustworthy.
Think about it...
Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy, but that doesn't mean that we know the whole story in this case. I'm guessing you've already made up your mind, but I'm still open to evidence showing the Russians and their cohorts in the east didn't have any involvement, as well as what if any involvement Ukraine had.
I do know though that if any evidence of Ukrainian culpability does exist, it won't be hidden by the so-called Group of 6 here in the West.
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We have had a few stories of "It's too dangerous for the investigators." It's a decent size area to sanitize, but it is certainly doable in the time they had.
I'm troubled by a couple of conflicting reports - it could be the usual early reporting fog of war thing though, so fist full of salt with these comments/notes.
The pictures show very definite penetration holes from a close explosion. You recognize them the first time you get one between your feet. They certainly can be faked, but the pattern looks right.
The lack of smoke trail, as Dan said. She went down under power, with the cockpit gone, not on fire. That means laser or radar guided missile, not a heat seeker, which would take out an engine, not the nose. Those are not cheap and, despite the brisk arms trade, not readily available to Joe Rebel.
The bodies being mostly naked or in shredded clothing and scattered over a wide area. Symptomatic of explosive decompression, and possibly additional evidence that the cockpit was taken out. Some of the other pictures support this idea, the airframe has been ripped apart, by the looks of it.
Excellent analysis. Early reports said that the debris field was nine miles long. Bet me it was the whole frickin' cockpit that got blown off first, and is near the leading edge of the debris footprint.
I still think it likely that a great many of those people were alive, and possibly quite conscious all the way to impact. The thought of making that long ride down is horrifying.
:smokin:
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Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy, but that doesn't mean that we know the whole story in this case. I'm guessing you've already made up your mind, but I'm still open to evidence showing the Russians and their cohorts in the east didn't have any involvement, as well as what if any involvement Ukraine had.
Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous don't you think?
I do know though that if any evidence of Ukrainian culpability does exist, it won't be hidden by the so-called Group of 6 here in the West.
So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?
All you've done is go all-in for the western-msm version of events...
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Excellent analysis. Early reports said that the debris field was nine miles long. Bet me it was the whole frickin' cockpit that got blown off first, and is near the leading edge of the debris footprint.
I still think it likely that a great many of those people were alive, and possibly quite conscious all the way to impact. The thought of making that long ride down is horrifying.
:smokin:
I'd not worry too much about the suffering. At 37,000 feet you will be conscious for less than 20 seconds. Wife is cabin crew and they run speed drills during training - getting into your mask and seat, with belt on, in over 20 seconds is an automatic fail. They do have their own seats at the doors, but it's why there is always one seat on each aisle in each cabin unsold too. Closest available gets used.
The state of the bodies though is also a no. You don't get pulled out of your clothes if you are riding it down. That is being pulled out into 500 mph winds. :shrug:
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Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous don't you think?
Not really. My Daughter-in-law is from Russia. We speak about Russia frequently, and we disagree on some issues. But she and her family know Putin and his "government". Putin's background, his goals, and the fact that he's in power to stay speak volumes about his trustworthiness. But as I said a couple of times, I'm still open to other evidence.
So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?
I haven't any idea, but I do know that News Corp would put out anything that would contradict Obama, and anything of this magnitude would grab any of the outlets if they believed it to have veracity. And the story isn't over with either. I doubt the Dutch would hide the truth as this investigation rolls out...even if all of the media and other Western governments are in cahoots to hide it.
All you've done is go all-in for the western-msm version of events...
Umm...okay.
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Not really. My Daughter-in-law is from Russia. We speak about Russia frequently, and we disagree on some issues. But she and her family know Putin and his "government". Putin's background, his goals, and the fact that he's in power to stay speak volumes about his trustworthiness. But as I said a couple of times, I'm still open to other evidence.
If you didn't admit that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, why did you say?
Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy...
I haven't any idea, but I do know that News Corp would put out anything that would contradict Obama, and anything of this magnitude would grab any of the outlets if they believed it to have veracity. And the story isn't over with either. I doubt the Dutch would hide the truth as this investigation rolls out...even if all of the media and other Western governments are in cahoots to hide it.
How do you know that since you don't know why...
So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?
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If you didn't admit that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, why did you say?
Yes, the Russians are less trustworthy , but as the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut" could apply here. The fact that they're less trustworthy and in this case have a very strong reason to hide the truth doesn't mean that they did the dirty deed. I believe right now that they were involved, but as I've said, The Dutch will likely pursue the truth.
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Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous
Yes, the Russians are less trustworthy , ...
So why did you say?
Not really.
... but as the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut" could apply here.
So why doesn't the western-msm respond to Russian claims since you 'know' that News Corp and the Dutch wouldn't hide the truth and the Russian media may be correct?
Don't serious charges deserve a response? It should be easy to discredit these charges, yet they are simply flushed down the memory-hole.
The fact that they're less trustworthy and in this case have a very strong reason to hide the truth doesn't mean that they did the dirty deed. I believe right now that they were involved, but as I've said, The Dutch will likely pursue the truth.
Too bad you can't see that you merely 'assume' that the western-msm is more trustworthy and that you fail to see that the Ukrainians have just as strong a reason to blame the Russians.
And the Dutch will 'likely' pursue the truth? Why would they not?
All while the western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.
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Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation
Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?
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Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?
The lead investigator will probably be a Syrian.
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The lead investigator will probably be a Syrian.
Oooh, that would be even better! :whistle:
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Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?
My money is on a Ukrainian... :silly:
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I've heard many of the 'separatists' are ex-Ukrainian military who used similar weapons systems in the past.
Here's the article about the possibility of Ukrainian escort jet:
http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
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All while the western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.
Actually, if one were to look at the various network pages, one would find that most of the articles also include Putin's claims about Ukraine's alleged involvement. For the most part, the articles are more focused on what the national leaders have been saying, including the US, Germany, Netherlands, and of course Russia and Ukraine.
But I know how you feel about reading versus thinking...
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I've heard many of the 'separatists' are ex-Ukrainian military who used similar weapons systems in the past.
Here's the article about the possibility of Ukrainian escort jet:
http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
Thanks for the link. That theory is intriguing and could very well be possible - essentially a mistake by the missile operator who thought he was firing on a Ukrainian military aircraft - something the separatists (and the Russians) obviously think is a legitimate target - and instead inadvertently targeted the civilian aircraft instead.
That being said, it still doesn't absolve the separatists or the Russians - both bear full responsibility for the shoot-down - but it does also have the ring of truth and does suggest that the Ukraine gov't has a little egg on its face as well, at least in terms of the optics.
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Actually, if one were to look at the various network pages, one would find that most of the articles also include Putin's claims about Ukraine's alleged involvement. For the most part, the articles are more focused on what the national leaders have been saying, including the US, Germany, Netherlands, and of course Russia and Ukraine.
Actually, you didn't answer why western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.
So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17? Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?
But I know how you feel about reading versus thinking...
I seriously doubt that you do...
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Thanks for the link. That theory is intriguing and could very well be possible - essentially a mistake by the missile operator who thought he was firing on a Ukrainian military aircraft - something the separatists (and the Russians) obviously think is a legitimate target - and instead inadvertently targeted the civilian aircraft instead.
That being said, it still doesn't absolve the separatists or the Russians - both bear full responsibility for the shoot-down - but it does also have the ring of truth and does suggest that the Ukraine gov't has a little egg on its face as well, at least in terms of the optics.
It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?
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It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?
Or why was the plane diverted into that airspace in the first place?
Too many questions that the western-msm doesn't want to ask and the western pols don't want to answer, is my guess...
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We're going to find out that one single Ukrainian air-traffic controller was responsible for getting MH-17 to divert course...and lower their altitude at 33K ft.... to enter the 'kill zone'.
The British now have the black boxes to analyze. And we know that the PM of Britain has already blamed the Russians. M16 can make the 'evidence' say anything they want it to say.
There is no logical reason why Putin would shoot the plane down. And the separatists didn't have the capability.
Furthermore, Kiev refuses to release the radar grabs. It was reported in Kiev itself the day after the shoot down, that Ukrainian jets were tailing.....maybe forcing ML17 to enter the kill zone.
Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.
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We're going to find out that one single Ukrainian air-traffic controller was responsible for getting MH-17 to divert course...and lower their altitude at 33K ft.... to enter the 'kill zone'.
The British now have the black boxes to analyze. And we know that the PM of Britain has already blamed the Russians. M16 can make the 'evidence' say anything they want it to say.
There is no logical reason why Putin would shoot the plane down. And the separatists didn't have the capability.
Furthermore, Kiev refuses to release the radar grabs. It was reported in Kiev itself the day after the shoot down, that Ukrainian jets were tailing.....maybe forcing ML17 to enter the kill zone.
Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.
And there is no Earthly reason for the Ukrainians to have shot the plane down either.
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It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?
Leading out - no idea what so ever. It seems a no brainer.
CM though - they are limited. Look, my experience is restricted to 360 mph (and if you ever tell my CO I'll deny that with a straight face). Not 600. That really changes the dynamic.
If something has a radar lock on you, you need to respond lightning fast and perfectly co-ordinated. Especialy if it is homing in on your own sig. If it's a laser lock - you got 40 seconds to write your will.
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Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.
You've already had one tweeting who subsequently 'disappeared'...
Carlos Spanish Kiev Air Traffic Controller Real. All His Tweets day of MH 17 shot down. (http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.ca/2014/07/carlos-spanish-kiev-air-traffic.html)
OK, found you...
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You've already had one tweeting who subsequently 'disappeared'...
Carlos Spanish Kiev Air Traffic Controller Real. All His Tweets day of MH 17 shot down. (http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.ca/2014/07/carlos-spanish-kiev-air-traffic.html)
OK, found you...
Thanks, Dan! :beer:
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Thanks, Dan!
You know, that is the kind of thing I would expect that an independent press would report in trying to get to the bottom of this.
Apparently, my thinking is being tainted by 'foreign sources'...
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You know, that is the kind of thing I would expect that an independent press would report in trying to get to the bottom of this.
Apparently, my thinking is being tainted by 'foreign sources'...
Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.
But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly.
Thoughtful...pragmatic. Two words that come to mind.
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Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.
But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly.
Thoughtful...pragmatic. Two words that come to mind.
Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...
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Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...
:shrug:
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Or why was the plane diverted into that airspace in the first place?
Too many questions that the western-msm doesn't want to ask and the western pols don't want to answer, is my guess...
Oh Hell No! Herr Leader has already stated who is at fault.
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And there is no Earthly reason for the Ukrainians to have shot the plane down either.
Possibly as a false flag to garner international attention?
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Leading out - no idea what so ever. It seems a no brainer.
CM though - they are limited. Look, my experience is restricted to 360 mph (and if you ever tell my CO I'll deny that with a straight face). Not 600. That really changes the dynamic.
If something has a radar lock on you, you need to respond lightning fast and perfectly co-ordinated. Especialy if it is homing in on your own sig. If it's a laser lock - you got 40 seconds to write your will.
Thank for that bit of info. It explains some of my questions.
My lips are sealed BTW. 888what 888what
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Possibly as a false flag to garner international attention?
except that we've all quickly concluded - see above - that the Russians/separatists could have no Earthly reason to shoot the plane down, so any such false flag would be highly implausible.
I'm leaning more and more to the "accident" theory: that the separatist/Russian missile operator intended to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft and, most likely through inexperience and lack of training, hit the civilian aircraft instead.
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Actually, you didn't answer why western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.
You mean when Russia took over the Crimea? Or when the Ukrainians dumped their Russian puppet president? Or when Ukraine pushed back against the EU in favor of Russia? Which conduct are you referring to? But actually your charge was that the MSM was totally ignoring Russian claims about the downing of the 777, which obviously they weren't.
I seriously doubt that you do...
Well I'm trying to learn from the great thinkers... :laugh:
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You mean when Russia took over the Crimea? Or when the Ukrainians dumped their Russian puppet president? Or when Ukraine pushed back against the EU in favor of Russia? Which conduct are you referring to? But actually your charge was that the MSM was totally ignoring Russian claims about the downing of the 777, which obviously they weren't.
Well I'm trying to learn from the great thinkers... :laugh:
:silly:
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except that we've all quickly concluded - see above - that the Russians/separatists could have no Earthly reason to shoot the plane down, so any such false flag would be highly implausible.
I'm leaning more and more to the "accident" theory: that the separatist/Russian missile operator intended to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft and, most likely through inexperience and lack of training, hit the civilian aircraft instead.
That's the most logical working theory. Russia itself has no reason to create this, but every reason to help cover it up. Ukraine's possible motive could be to frame the separatists. Right now, most of the civilized world thinks the weight of evidence points to the separatists.
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Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...
...Never mind. :nometalk:
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DCPatriot wrote above:
[[ Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer. ]]
I wouldn't be surprised if the members of the BUK crew that fired the missile have now gone "missing"....
.... as in, permanently.
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Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.
But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly.
Thoughtful...pragmatic. Two words that come to mind.
Thanks DC. I probably should be a little more circumspect with my words. :beer:
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That's the most logical working theory. Russia itself has no reason to create this, but every reason to help cover it up. Ukraine's possible motive could be to frame the separatists. Right now, most of the civilized world thinks the weight of evidence points to the separatists.
Certainly, but I find it unlikely that the Ukrainians would be so cold-blooded as to kill everyone aboard that plane simply to create an implausible frame for the separatists - implausible because the separatists have no reason to shoot down civilian aircraft. I'm not saying it's impossible - nothing's impossible - I'm just saying that the theory should be kept in the fridge (i.e., not even on the back burner) until/unless really good evidence indicates that it did happen.
I, too, think the weight of the evidence points to the separatists firing a missile system the Russians provided them with; I also think that this was a tragic mistake caused by an ill-trained operator who thought he was shooting at another Ukrainian military craft. No doubt the Russians provided this system (and maybe others) with the intent that the separatists start shooting down Ukrainian military craft - that certainly would have upped the temperatures and tempers on both sides - and are now chagrined - if that word even really applies to the likes of Putin (I can't think of a better term right now) - that their separatists made such a huge blunder. A blunder because shooting down Ukrainian military craft is a good way to keep everything riled up without really getting the West - Europe and the US - too worked up about it; shooting down a civilian aircraft that had nothing to do with Ukraine other than its transient presence in Ukraine airspace does appear to have finally gotten the attention of the Europeans and the US in a way that to-date Putin has managed to avoid.
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except that we've all quickly concluded - see above - that the Russians/separatists could have no Earthly reason to shoot the plane down, so any such false flag would be highly implausible.
I'm leaning more and more to the "accident" theory: that the separatist/Russian missile operator intended to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft and, most likely through inexperience and lack of training, hit the civilian aircraft instead.
That's quite possible. Given the fact that the missile exploded before making contact (which they're designed to do) I wonder if the military planes got out of the way?
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That's quite possible. Given the fact that the missile exploded before making contact (which they're designed to do) I wonder if the military planes got out of the way?
You are trained to. It's second nature. See an incoming, you evade the thing. In a conflict between 500 lbs of boom and a very fragile aircraft - the boom usually wins. Anything that loses lock is used - I'd fire flares and chaff, waste missiles and head for the deck at pretty much terminal. Sure, you pull some Gs and your body hates you the day after - but it's alive to hate you.
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You mean when Russia took over the Crimea? Or when the Ukrainians dumped their Russian puppet president? Or when Ukraine pushed back against the EU in favor of Russia? Which conduct are you referring to? But actually your charge was that the MSM was totally ignoring Russian claims about the downing of the 777, which obviously they weren't.
Um, I included the quote wrt Ukrainian conduct right below my comment. You must have tried really hard to miss it.
Well I'm trying to learn from the great thinkers... :laugh:
Try harder...
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11513
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Yep, misrepresent what I said, ignore the point every time I call you on it and play the innocent victim.
You're a real piece of work man...
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Yep, misrepresent what I said, ignore the point every time I call you on it and play the innocent victim.
You're a real piece of work man...
11513
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Actually not.
Exposing your consistent misrepresentation, avoiding important points and invoking victimhood is always pertinent.
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Actually not.
Exposing your consistent misrepresentation, avoiding important points and invoking victimhood is always pertinent.
Speaking of misrepresentation, how's that debunked missile launch video going? We can all be subject to influence by less than credible sources. Condescension can sometimes blow back on us.
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Speaking of misrepresentation, how's that debunked missile launch video going? We can all be subject to influence by less than credible sources. Condescension can sometimes blow back on us.
Doesn't bother me because I wasn't misrepresenting anyone. I simply posted what I though was a video of the plane going down. It's fine w/ me for people to point out it wasn't what it was supposed to be. That's what the forum is for, IMO, to discuss things.
You, however, have to take your 'victories' when you can get them.
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Doesn't bother me because I wasn't misrepresenting anyone. I simply posted what I though was a video of the plane going down. It's fine w/ me for people to point out it wasn't what it was supposed to be. That's what the forum is for, IMO, to discuss things.
You, however, have to take your 'victories' when you can get them.
At least he scores "victories"; you, not so much.
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That's what the forum is for, IMO, to discuss things.
Bingo! I agree 100% with you on that.
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You are trained to. It's second nature. See an incoming, you evade the thing. In a conflict between 500 lbs of boom and a very fragile aircraft - the boom usually wins. Anything that loses lock is used - I'd fire flares and chaff, waste missiles and head for the deck at pretty much terminal. Sure, you pull some Gs and your body hates you the day after - but it's alive to hate you.
Given the speed of these missiles, I doubt you have much time to dawdle.
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Given the speed of these missiles, I doubt you have much time to dawdle.
You don't have time to think about it at all, you just react. After action reports suggest it is somewhere from 6 to 45 seconds depending on the launcher - which feels like a long time to me. It seems almost instant when it happens. And I were flying things that go well under the speed of sound. Can't imagine how the jet jockeys manage.
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You don't have time to think about it at all, you just react. After action reports suggest it is somewhere from 6 to 45 seconds depending on the launcher - which feels like a long time to me. It seems almost instant when it happens. And I were flying things that go well under the speed of sound. Can't imagine how the jet jockeys manage.
Thank the Lord for onboard computers
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Pro-Russian separatists admit shooting down MH17 in phone conversation
Ukraine’s security agency (SBU) today released two telephone recordings which indicated that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian separatists.
The Kyiv Post, which published the telephone conversations, reported that the first telephone conversation made 20 minutes after the crash, was between Igor Bezler, identified as Russian intelligence and Vasili Geranin, a colonel in the Russian Federation separatist force...
Read more at: http://english.astroawani.com/election/news/show/pro-russian-separatists-admit-shooting-down-mh17-in-phone-conversation-40138?cp
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Thank the Lord for onboard computers
They help. A lot. But when you are staring down 4 incoming, they are too slow. Fastest computer ever made is the one between your ears. It's erratic, annoying and finds solutions with minimal data. :laugh:
First time I got shot at, I discovered you can barrel roll a 24. Technically not possible, it's a damned helicopter - but yes, it is possible if you need to do it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: