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General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => History => Topic started by: rangerrebew on March 19, 2016, 01:51:18 pm

Title: Ship Underground
Post by: rangerrebew on March 19, 2016, 01:51:18 pm

Ship Underground

 http://www.archaeology.org/issues/208-1603/trenches/4159-trenches-virginia-underground-ship

By DANIEL WEISS

Tuesday, February 16, 2016

Trenches Virginia Ship Timbers
(Courtesy Thunderbird Archeology, a division of Wetland Studies and Solutions, Inc.)
Ship timbers, Alexandria, VirginiaA large portion of an eighteenth-century ship that measured around 80 feet long was recently discovered on the site of a planned hotel near the Potomac River in Alexandria, Virginia. The vessel appears to have been scuttled between 1775 and 1798 in what were then mud flats, where it served “as sort of a pre-built framework to hold soil that was being deposited to make new land,” says Boyd Sipe, manager of Thunderbird Archeology, the firm that conducted the survey. Based on its size and evidence that its hull timbers had contact with salt water, Sipe says the ship was most likely a two-masted oceangoing heavy cargo or military craft.

 

The timbers were particularly well preserved because, once buried, they were sealed off from oxygen and were not disturbed despite extensive construction in the area in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. At the site, archaeologists have also discovered the remains of Alexandria’s first public warehouse, dating to the 1750s, and three privies containing extensive artifacts including a complete kaolin pipe, jewelry, ceramics, glass bottles, and parts of leather shoes.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: Bill Cipher on March 19, 2016, 02:24:19 pm
(http://www.archaeology.org/images/MA2016/Trenches/Trenches-Virginia-Ship-Timbers.jpg)
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 19, 2016, 02:32:26 pm
 
So they're saying that sea-levels were higher in the past?  Globull warming back then?

Or did the land somehow rise up?


Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: rangerrebew on March 19, 2016, 03:13:39 pm

So they're saying that sea-levels were higher in the past?  Globull warming back then?

Or did the land somehow rise up?
  I guess the land rose up about the same time global warming started "heating up", huh?
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: Bill Cipher on March 19, 2016, 04:15:49 pm

So they're saying that sea-levels were higher in the past?  Globull warming back then?

Or did the land somehow rise up?




The ships were scuttled - sunk, in vernacular terms - and used to hold in-fill to build up the land from marsh to useful.  It was a common use for many older wooden ships.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 19, 2016, 05:08:49 pm
The ships were scuttled - sunk, in vernacular terms - and used to hold in-fill to build up the land from marsh to useful.  It was a common use for many older wooden ships.

That doesn't make any sense.  How is one scuttled ship going to hold enough in-fill to transform a mud flat into something useful?

Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: Bill Cipher on March 19, 2016, 11:22:55 pm
That doesn't make any sense.  How is one scuttled ship going to hold enough in-fill to transform a mud flat into something useful?




Other ships involved and you don't need to fill the entire area with ships, just use them in strategic areas.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 21, 2016, 12:03:34 am

Other ships involved and you don't need to fill the entire area with ships, just use them in strategic areas.

Just what are the 'strategic areas' in a mud flat...


Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: EC on March 21, 2016, 12:22:48 am
That doesn't make any sense.  How is one scuttled ship going to hold enough in-fill to transform a mud flat into something useful?

Same way one fallen tree is enough to completely change the course of a river.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 21, 2016, 12:38:43 am
Same way one fallen tree is enough to completely change the course of a river.

Rivers are constrained to their flood-plains... mud-flats are tidal structures... completely different things...

Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: katzenjammer on March 21, 2016, 12:45:20 am
Rivers are constrained to their flood-plains... mud-flats are tidal structures... completely different things...

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2dhw4ld.jpg)
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: EC on March 21, 2016, 12:45:50 am
Not really. Anything that stops the sediment from being dragged away will eventually build up land high enough for plants to take hold. Once plants take hold, the roots act as millions of tiny barriers, further preventing erosion.

Think of it like the water version of snow drifts.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on March 21, 2016, 12:48:49 am
Thought it was lack of oxygen that preserved stuff in mud flats and such.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 21, 2016, 12:52:14 am
Not really. Anything that stops the sediment from being dragged away will eventually build up land high enough for plants to take hold. Once plants take hold, the roots act as millions of tiny barriers, further preventing erosion.

Think of it like the water version of snow drifts.

A barrier in a tidal mud flat is going to increase the velocity of the water flowing around it, thereby increasing the sediment being carried away.


Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: Bill Cipher on March 21, 2016, 12:53:23 am
A barrier in a tidal mud flat is going to increase the velocity of the water flowing around it, thereby increasing the sediment being carried away.




Well gee, then, I guess all those folks all these centuries who have been burying ships to build up land have been doing it wrong all along, haven't they?  Too had we don't have a time machine so we could go back and tell them not to waste their time, that it'll never work.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 21, 2016, 12:56:33 am
Well gee, then, I guess all those folks all these centuries who have been burying ships to build up land have been doing it wrong all along, haven't they?  Too had we don't have a time machine so we could go back and tell them not to waste their time, that it'll never work.

:rolleyes:

How do you know that?


Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: EC on March 21, 2016, 01:02:15 am
We know that this technique was used to form the harbor at Ostia - there are contemporaneous reports.

Alexander the Great used it in conquering an island city too (name escapes me), but the temporary peninsular his army formed to attack the city is still here 2000 years later.

We know they did it because they wrote about it.
Title: Re: Ship Underground
Post by: GourmetDan on March 21, 2016, 01:04:19 am
We know that this technique was used to form the harbor at Ostia - there are contemporaneous reports.

Alexander the Great used it in conquering an island city too (name escapes me), but the temporary peninsular his army formed to attack the city is still here 2000 years later.

We know they did it because they wrote about it.

So you're saying there are contemporaneous reports for this incident?

The Ostia harbor doesn't seem to fit this case at all... they were building large stone moles as breakwaters... the grain ships that sank were the result of a storm that sank these ships in spite of the moles...