The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: Charlespg on August 18, 2014, 02:41:57 pm
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2727568/Autopsy-reveals-Michael-Brown-shot-SIX-times-confrontation-police-officer.html
Uh oh the narrative is starting to unravel :nometalk:
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Presser Live now on Fox
Ben Shapiro @benshapiro 21s
Nothing like a mob driving charges against a cop before all the facts are in. Social justice means the opposite of justice, apparently.
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U.S. News @usnews 1m
Michael Brown family lawyer @attorneycrump is speaking live now at a press conference in Missouri.
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This attorney is just mumbling....
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Newsweek @Newsweek 24s
The question "what else do we need to give them to arrest the killer of my child?" was met with applause during the conference.
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Huffington Post @HuffingtonPost 2m
Michael Brown's mother wants to know: "What else do we need to give them to arrest the killer of my child?"
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Dr Baden just said that a third autopsy by the federal government is highly unusual.
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With his arms raised, how does three of the shots go through his arm?
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Dr Baden just rambling...goes to show what money can buy
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Baden did not have access to Brown's clothes, which may have gunpowder residue on them if the bullets were fired from close range. Baden also did not have access to X-rays that may have shown where the bullets were found, nor did he see any witness or police statements.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/08/18/dr-baden-michael-brown-autopsy-contradicts-witnesses-points-excessive-force (http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/08/18/dr-baden-michael-brown-autopsy-contradicts-witnesses-points-excessive-force)
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Christopher Hayes @chrislhayes 42s
Community member says "Why hasn't the officer been arrested?" Applause.
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Christopher Hayes @chrislhayes 42s
Community member says "Why hasn't the officer been arrested?" Applause.
if the officer is proven to be telling the truth why don't you shut up :chairbang:
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Four shots in the arms and two in the head could suggest that the police first tried to stop him with non-lethal shots and when he kept coming they put him down with shots to the head. Again, I don't know all the facts, but the volume of bullets by itself is not sufficient to suggest this was either manslaughter or murder.
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Four shots in the arms and two in the head could suggest that the police first tried to stop him with non-lethal shots and when he kept coming they put him down with shots to the head. Again, I don't know all the facts, but the volume of bullets by itself is not sufficient to suggest this was either manslaughter or murder.
Especially if he was hopped up on dope, what was the cop to do? Stop after he shot a couple of times and go away?
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Huffington Post @HuffingtonPost 2m
Michael Brown's mother wants to know: "What else do we need to give them to arrest the killer of my child?"
Does the fact that your gentle giant strong-armed and stole right before his death mean anything to you lady?
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Does the fact that your gentle giant strong-armed and stole right before his death mean anything to you lady?
Facts are no different than lies to those who live in the 'innocent victim' belief-system...
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Four shots in the arms and two in the head could suggest that the police first tried to stop him with non-lethal shots and when he kept coming they put him down with shots to the head. Again, I don't know all the facts, but the volume of bullets by itself is not sufficient to suggest this was either manslaughter or murder.
Vic, your observations throughout this event have been well-reasoned and balanced.
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Facts are no different than lies to those who live in the 'innocent victim' belief-system...
yeah, i know. **nononono*
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Todd Starnes
8 mins ·
The uncivil unrest in Ferguson, Missouri continues -- and it appears the Obama Administration may be orchestrating the Michael Brown tragedy.
NBC News is reporting that Attorney General Eric Holder and Valerie Jarrett are the administration's point persons going so far as to arrange a federal autopsy.
It was Holder who tried to convince the Ferguson Police Department not to release the video purportedly showing Brown involved in a strong-arm robbery.
He also ordered local authorities to stop using armored tanks -- even though officers were fending off Molotov cocktail bombs. It was a decision that in essence led to government sanctioned lawlessness.
The LA Times reports Jarrett and Holder have been discussing their game plan with the likes of Al Sharpton.
So while President Obama whacks golf balls and dances the two-step in tony Martha's Vineyard, his administration is in cahoots with a bona fide race hustler.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/18/county-investigation-michael-brown-was-shot-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/?tid=sm_fb (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/18/county-investigation-michael-brown-was-shot-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/?tid=sm_fb)
By Mark Berman, Emily Wax-Thibodeaux and Wesley Lowery August 18 at 12:34 PM
Michael Brown was shot in the head and chest multiple times, according to Mary Case, the St. Louis County medical examiner.
While Case declined to comment further, citing the ongoing investigation into Brown’s death, another person familiar with the county’s investigation told The Washington Post that Brown had between six and eight gunshot wounds and was shot from the front.
In addition, Brown had marijuana in his system when he was shot and killed by a police officer on Aug. 9 in Ferguson, according to this person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation.
The report from Case’s office was released to the St. Louis County prosecutor’s office on Friday night but has not been made public. This report is part of the county’s official investigation into the shooting, but it is one of three autopsies being conducted.
Brown’s family and attorneys also requested its own autopsy, which was carried out by Michael Baden, a medical examiner who released preliminary details from his review on Monday.
In anticipation that Brown could be vilified by the results of the drug test, conducted as a routine part of the autopsy, protesters have consistently insisted that Darren Wilson, the officer who shot Brown, should be required to submit to one as well.
“What was in the system of that cop when he was pumping bullets into that boy’s body?” asked a protest leader, shouting into a megaphone, during a rally on Friday afternoon.
Residents and protesters have noted that allegations of marijuana use have been used in the past by some in an attempt to disparage the character of shooting victims, including in the Trayvon Martin case.
Baden said Monday he had great respect for Mary Case, the medical examiner in St. Louis County, and said he expected that her review would show similar results to his.
“It sounds consistent,” Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Brown’s family, told The Washington Post. Brown’s attorneys believe Darren Wilson may have fired more than six shots, but “we wanted to err on the side of caution.”
The family gave permission for a medical examiner with the U.S. military to conduct a third autopsy, which was requested Sunday by the Department of Justice.
Crump said he didn’t know anything about marijuana being found in Brown’s body.
Baden and Case often speak at the same conferences, and Baden has attended lectures she gives on autopsy reports. But a source familiar with the issue said that she was not aware he was conducting an autopsy.
Case said Monday that she was not bothered to hear that additional autopsies would be conducted.
“I’m not upset at all,” she said. “This is highly controversial case and it’s good that everyone interested in it can have a say.”
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Vic, your observations throughout this event have been well-reasoned and balanced.
I'll have you know that my observations are always well-reasoned and balanced! :silly:
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Eight gunshots. Really?
What I heard earlier is that he hit him four times in the arm, twice in the torso and twice in the head, including the finishing shot, which went through the top of his skull as Brown was going down.
The cop was scared out of his mind. He's lucky he didn't shoot four or five other people.
Wilson should never be entrusted with a firearm again.
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In addition, Brown had marijuana in his system when he was shot and killed by a police officer on Aug. 9 in Ferguson, according to this person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation.
That's why he was stealing Swisher Sweets, to make more blunts.
Just like TM and his Watermelon Tea and Skittles, to make more purple drank.
Do those guys stay high 24/7?
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Four shots in the arms and two in the head could suggest that the police first tried to stop him with non-lethal shots and when he kept coming they put him down with shots to the head. Again, I don't know all the facts, but the volume of bullets by itself is not sufficient to suggest this was either manslaughter or murder.
Or, it could also suggest that the cop was scared out of his mind and was unloading his magazine into Brown. Cops are notoriously lousy shots and are not taught to fire non-lethally. Even in CCL class, one is taught to fire at body mass, the torso. Cops don't shoot to wound.
There is no "they" when it comes to the LEO. There was one officer shooting, Darren Wilson. There were no other cops on the scene.
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Or, it could also suggest that the cop was scared out of his mind and was unloading his magazine into Brown.
Let's assume you are right. Why would the cop be scared out of his mind? At least here you are acknowledging that the cop may have been acting out of fear rather than malice. So why should he be scared? Maybe a big, bruising black man who was closer to 300 pounds than 200 was barreling down at him? If it happened to you would you just shoot once?
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I'll have you know that my observations are always well-reasoned and balanced! :silly:
Well...let's not push the envelope... :pondering: :beer:
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Let's assume you are right. Why would the cop be scared out of his mind? At least here you are acknowledging that the cop may have been acting out of fear rather than malice. So why should he be scared? Maybe a big, bruising black man who was closer to 300 pounds than 200 was barreling down at him? If it happened to you would you just shoot once?
I never thought the cop acted out of malice. I always thought this was a case of a cop who likely had never fired his weapon in a situation he couldn't handle, got scared, and couldn't think of any other way to deal with the situation than to dump his gun into Brown. In this case, it was the cop who stood his ground, rather than run back to his cruiser and wait for back-up.
Never murder, but possible manslaughter. Or, as is likely, he'll be cleared as he was in "fear for his life."
But he should never be allowed to carry a gun again.
I've seen it in these dog situations. A cop in a fenced-in yard with a barking dog never thinks to back out of the yard. He just stands there and shoots the dog.
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How many seconds does it take to fire off a minimum of six shots with a semi-automatic weapon?
Two? Three?
Probably not more than that. :shrug:
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Two of the gunshot wounds were graze wounds, Baden said Monday, and two may have been reentry wounds.
Baden said he performed the autopsy at a local funeral home after Brown’s body had been embalmed, so he was unable to collect blood samples for toxicology screening -- something that was done during the initial autopsy by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner.
The forensic expert said he is awaiting the results of that screening, which could take several weeks. He also plans to review Brown’s clothing and X-rays taken of Brown’s body before the initial autopsy was performed.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy-20140818-story.html#page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy-20140818-story.html#page=1)
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Or, it could also suggest that the cop was scared out of his mind and was unloading his magazine into Brown. Cops are notoriously lousy shots and are not taught to fire non-lethally. Even in CCL class, one is taught to fire at body mass, the torso. Cops don't shoot to wound.
There is no "they" when it comes to the LEO. There was one officer shooting, Darren Wilson. There were no other cops on the scene.
Cops generally walk around with half-empty clips in their guns?
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How many seconds does it take to fire off a minimum of six shots with a semi-automatic weapon?
Two? Three?
Probably not more than that. :shrug:
As fast as you can squeeze and release, squeeze and release.
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Two of the gunshot wounds were graze wounds, Baden said Monday, and two may have been reentry wounds.
Baden said he performed the autopsy at a local funeral home after Brown’s body had been embalmed, so he was unable to collect blood samples for toxicology screening -- something that was done during the initial autopsy by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner.
The forensic expert said he is awaiting the results of that screening, which could take several weeks. He also plans to review Brown’s clothing and X-rays taken of Brown’s body before the initial autopsy was performed.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy-20140818-story.html#page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy-20140818-story.html#page=1)
So that would put the number of rounds at 4 to 6.
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Never murder, but possible manslaughter. Or, as is likely, he'll be cleared as he was in "fear for his life."
:nono:
You mentioned in another post that second degree murder charges should be an option. Back when you said "the facts are known."
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So that would put the number of rounds at 4 to 6.
Baden thinks 6..he's on the air right now with Sean
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County autopsy: Michael Brown shot 6 times from front, had marijuana in system
Forensic pathologists and an attorney for the Brown family say a private autopsy confirms witness accounts that Michael Brown was shot at least six times. (AP)
By Emily Wax-Thibodeaux, DeNeen L. Brown and Jerry Markon August 18 at 1:51 PM
FERGUSON, Mo. — An unarmed black teenager had marijuana in his system when he was fatally shot six times by a white police officer, two people familiar with the official county autopsy of Michael Brown said Monday.
The autopsy by St. Louis County chief medical examiner Mary Case, released to state prosecutors late Friday, found that Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front, the people said. They spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of Brown’s death, which has triggered violent protests in this St. Louis suburb that continued Sunday night.
In a brief interview with The Washington Post, Case declined to comment on specifics of her examination of Brown’s body but said she welcomes the two other autopsies being performed. One was done Sunday by forensic pathologists Michael Baden and Shawn Parcells, and Case said the second — ordered on Sunday by Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. — will be done by Pentagon medical examiners.
“I welcome anyone who wants to do additional autopsies,’’ Case said. “Michael is someone I know and think highly of, and I think highly of the Armed Forces also. I’m not upset at all. This is highly controversial case, and it’s good that everyone interested in it can have a say.”
Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Brown’s family, said Case’s results “sound consistent” with Baden’s highly publicized autopsy, but Crump said he was unaware of any marijuana in Brown’s system. Baden also concluded that Brown was shot at least six times, according to a preliminary report on an autopsy he and Parcells performed Sunday at a funeral home in Ferguson.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/official-autopsy-michael-brown-had-marijuana-in-his-system-was-shot-6-times/2014/08/18/8c016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html?hpid=z1
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Can Attorney "General" Holder influence the Pentagon? Can CinC Obama influence the Pentagon?
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As fast as you can squeeze and release, squeeze and release.
Why would you have to "release", if the weapon is semi-automatic?
Wouldn't the clip empty if you just held the "squeeze"?
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Why would you have to "release", if the weapon is semi-automatic?
Wouldn't the clip empty if you just held the "squeeze"?
Huh? A semi-auto reloads the chamber, but the trigger must be pulled for each shot fired.
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Why would you have to "release", if the weapon is semi-automatic?
Wouldn't the clip empty if you just held the "squeeze"?
Because short arms like this are 99.9% semi-automatic. The "automatic" part is that they automatically reload until the clip is empty. The "semi" part is that they only fire once for each pull on the trigger. There used to be some machine pistols around, but they are ungodly hard to control and I don't think any cop would ever be allowed to carry one as his or her ordinary service piece.
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Or, it could also suggest that the cop was scared out of his mind and was unloading his magazine into Brown. Cops are notoriously lousy shots and are not taught to fire non-lethally. Even in CCL class, one is taught to fire at body mass, the torso. Cops don't shoot to wound.
There is no "they" when it comes to the LEO. There was one officer shooting, Darren Wilson. There were no other cops on the scene.
If a 300 guy charges me I'm going to unload on him till drops
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:th_10444:
Cops generally walk around with half-empty clips in their guns?
WHere'd you get that? There was a shot in the police car, or so some reports say.
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:th_10444:
WHere'd you get that? There was a shot in the police car, or so some reports say.
6 to 8 rounds doesn't generally an empty clip make.
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If a 300 guy charges me I'm going to unload on him till drops
You wouldn't have to if you knew where to shoot. Cops are notoriously bad shots, as can be seen in this case.
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You wouldn't have to if you knew where to shoot. Cops are notoriously bad shots, as can be seen in this case.
Not so. People don't generally get blown backwards when hit with bullets; that's just in the movies, with wires.
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If a 300 guy charges me I'm going to unload on him till drops
I'd have to do the same thing, especially if my vision was impaired by having been hit in the face at least once already. (I don't know for sure that Wilson was hit in the face already but the reports make it seem likely.) I'm not a big guy and against a charging and surely enraged 300 pounder, I wouldn't stand a chance except to run. Run? And leave my vehicle behind for the aforementioned 300 pounder to jump in & run me down?
Things are not always as simple as they seem. This is especially true when we don't know all of the facts and some of the facts we know turn out not to be factual. :-)
My suspicion at this point? This case will turn out to be a lot more like the TM case than some people would like.
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A couple of quick points. First, in general, when the weapon is drawn, "winging" someone is a stupid idea. The gunshot pattern could show that Wilson is a bad shot. OTOH it could also show that Brown moved to his left while charging the cop and was fast enough to evade the proper shots into the center of mass. Then he could have kept going, given his size and substance in his body, lowered his head and continued the charge. That could explain the head shot.
But it's just one explanation. The anti-police folks here might be correct. Unfortunately, this has moved into the political arena, and the truth may never be known.
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Not so. People don't generally get blown backwards when hit with bullets; that's just in the movies, with wires.
Four shots in the arm is NOT a sign of an accurate shooter. Cops are not taught to wound; that's also a fantasy that's only seen in the movies. They are taught to hit center mass, and the fact that not one of Wilson's shots hit center mass indicates he hasn't been at the range in a while.
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Four shots in the arm is NOT a sign of an accurate shooter. Cops are not taught to wound; that's also a fantasy that's only seen in the movies. They are taught to hit center mass, and the fact that not one of Wilson's shots hit center mass indicates he hasn't been at the range in a while.
From what I understand, this officer had a clean record and may not have ever before been in a situation even remotely like this one. I can imagine that a person who is a crack shot on the range could be greatly affected by the adrenaline which accompanies a scene where great bodily harm is probable if he is unable to somehow stop a suspect from getting to him a second time. It's hard to stage a practice session at the range and include all of the factors, including the adrenaline, which are present in a confrontation like the one in question.
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Four shots in the arm is NOT a sign of an accurate shooter. Cops are not taught to wound; that's also a fantasy that's only seen in the movies. They are taught to hit center mass, and the fact that not one of Wilson's shots hit center mass indicates he hasn't been at the range in a while.
I agree but if Brown was moving quickly to the left, Wilson's center shot pattern might well have been on Brown's right side. We probably should wait for all the evidence to determine the causes.
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We probably should wait for all the evidence to determine the causes.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on that!
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I have little doubt that every effort will be made to clear this officer. He will say he was in fear for his life and will provide evidence to support that (scuffle in the car, Brown advancing on him). The prosecution (if there is one) will say he should have waited for back-up, should not have chased Brown. But, in most of these cases, the cop is given the benefit of the doubt unless there is something obvious about the cop's behavior.
In practical matters, Wilson will never be able to work in Ferguson again. He will either resign or be fired and that may, in itself, resolve the matter.
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I have little doubt that every effort will be made to clear this officer. He will say he was in fear for his life and will provide evidence to support that (scuffle in the car, Brown advancing on him). The prosecution (if there is one) will say he should have waited for back-up, should not have chased Brown. But, in most of these cases, the cop is given the benefit of the doubt unless there is something obvious about the cop's behavior.
In practical matters, Wilson will never be able to work in Ferguson again. He will either resign or be fired and that may, in itself, resolve the matter.
But shouldn't the burden of proof be on the prosecution, not Wilson? If in fact, his story is possible, shouldn't that be taken into consideration in determining if the potential charges are legitimate beyond a reasonable doubt?
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I agree but if Brown was moving quickly to the left, Wilson's center shot pattern might well have been on Brown's right side. We probably should wait for all the evidence to determine the causes.
Both are good points.
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We probably should wait for all the evidence to determine the causes.
To many people have their agenda which does not want the truth to come out. Either they want to keep stoking the fires of racism, or they have an anti-police agenda.
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But shouldn't the burden of proof be on the prosecution, not Wilson? If in fact, his story is possible, shouldn't that be taken into consideration in determining if the potential charges are legitimate beyond a reasonable doubt?
Yes. And he gets an extra ticky-mark because he's a cop.
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sinkspur wrote above:
[[ In practical matters, Wilson will never be able to work in Ferguson again. He will either resign or be fired and that may, in itself, resolve the matter. ]]
If they're going to force him into a trial, the worst thing he could do would be to resign before the outcome of the trial (and any subsequent appeals).
If there is a trial, and if he is exonerated of wrongdoing, then he should ask for reinstatement. If the town doesn't want him back (it probably won't), then it will up to the town government to either "buy him out" with some kind of settlement or negotiate a resignation....
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sinkspur wrote above:
[[ In practical matters, Wilson will never be able to work in Ferguson again. He will either resign or be fired and that may, in itself, resolve the matter. ]]
If they're going to force him into a trial, the worst thing he could do would be to resign before the outcome of the trial (and any subsequent appeals).
If there is a trial, and if he is exonerated of wrongdoing, then he should ask for reinstatement. If the town doesn't want him back (it probably won't), then it will up to the town government to either "buy him out" with some kind of settlement or negotiate a resignation....
"Buy him out"? Missouri is a right-to-work state. Anybody can be fired for any reason. Oh, I forgot, Wilson might be in a police union.
He could still work in Ferguson, but his life wouldn't be worth a plug nickel there.
I think one of the things that may work against Wilson is why did he pursue Brown? Even if he ran away, it's not like a 300 lb, 6'4" black man is going to be hard to find.