The Briefing Room
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mountaineer on March 12, 2014, 07:13:11 pm
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I am an elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and really, really want to get my congregation out of this apostate denomination - which is losing dozens of churches each year, for good reason. Here's just one example of what we're dealing with, from the PCUSA website:
Notes about people
March 11, 2014
Presbyterian News Service (http://www.pcusa.org/news/2014/3/11/notes-about-people-03-14/)
Jerry L. Van Marter
The Rev. Gerald S. (Jerry) Wise, a pastor, social activist and community organizer in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) for more than 50 years, died Feb. 18 in Cape Coral, Fla.
Wise, who studied under seminal community organizer Saul Alinsky in Chicago, was among the founding members in 1960 of the Alinsky-organized Temporary Woodlawn Organization (TWO), which began as a “militant protest community organization” formed to fight the University of Chicago in its plan to convert a huge swath of Woodlawn into a green buffer separating the dormitories and the homes of professors and students from the rough, mostly black neighborhood adjacent to the university. TWO organized thousands of Woodlawn residents, who would have been displaced by the plan, which was eventually scrapped.
Later in the 1960s, Wise did gang ministry at First Presbyterian Church in Chicago with the legendary Rev. John R. Fry, who wrote the best-selling Locked-out Americans based on that experience. First Presbyterian became the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers, rival gang of the Eastside Disciples. Wise and Fry eventually helped broker disarmament agreements that for a time greatly reduced gang violence in Chicago.
“I met Jerry when I served Dayton Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Paul, Minn.,” noted the Rev. Phil Tom,, the PC(USA)’s former coordinator of urban ministry who now serves in the U.S. Department of Labor in Washington, D.C. “He had also served at Dayton Avenue and left there to serve South Central Ministry, an urban ministry in South Central Minneapolis. Jerry was passionate about urban ministry, a good organizer and a great storyteller! He will be missed.”
In 1987, Wise returned to Chicago and First Presbyterian Church, where he served from 1987 until 2008. During his tenure, the church was instrumental in operating the oldest Head Start program in Chicago, as well as one of the largest food distribution centers and hot meals programs on the South Side of Chicago. Wise also founded Front Door Ministry, part of the Partners for Hope program ― a 1998 collaboration between the Illinois Department of Human Services' Division of Community Operations and faith-based communities to develop services for families moving from welfare to work.
Wise served on the board of directors of the Presbyterian Health, Education and Welfare Assocation from 1977-1987 and served as PHEWA’s president from 1981-1984.
Jerry was an incredible minister; especially in the world of urban ministry. He helped train hundreds of urban ministers in his years in Chicago as pastor at First Presbyterian ,” said the Rev. Mark Wendorf, a longtime activist in PC(USA) social welfare ministries and former professor of urban ministry at McCormick Theological Seminary.
“He was a field education placement every year I was teaching at McCormick,” Wendorf added. “He was always available, even at a moment’s notice, to welcome one of my classes. He was always willing to charm the students with good knowledge and great stories. Few things in ministry were better than to sit around with Jerry and swap urban ministry stories; along with a stiff drink.”
Wendorf said that “Jerry always held my feet to the fire and reminded me constantly to teach skills and remember the poor and oppressed. I will be forever grateful for this wisdom.”
The PC(USA) will miss Jerry Wise because, Wendorf said, “He was always a standard bearer for justice and constantly a friend of the forgotten and homeless.”
Wow, how incredibly praiseworthy. **nononono*
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I missed this one. Your Church isn't the only one with activist pastors who are more communist than religious. Keep pushing.
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Many former PCUSA churches (like ours) are now part of the EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church).
It affirms the supremacy of Scripture over 'cultural concerns,' the divinity of Christ, His death and Resurrection, and remains true to historical Presbyterian doctrine, while seeking to be a "Matthew 28 church"....reaching the lost with the love of Christ.
Soon there will be no Christians left in the PCUSA. It will merely be an arm of the radical Democrat party.
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musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess. **nononono*
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musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess. **nononono*
My friend. No. You do not need a pastor to lead you and the congregation. You need someone to stand up and say enough to the BS. What, you think you are Catholic or something? :laugh:
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musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess. **nononono*
Why would you attend a church which goes against what you believe?
Why don't you and likeminded congregants break away? Here is a major Anglican situation in our area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Anglican_Church_(Newport_Beach)
The OC area is pretty well populated with Protestant religious institutions, including Chrystal Cathedral (before failure), Original Calvery Chapel in Costa Mesa (the tent by the freeway of the 70s), TBN, Saddleback, Benny Hinn's seaside multi-million home, etc. Harvest crusade is next door in Riverside County.
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Our church - our small congregation, that is - doesn't go against my beliefs. The denomination does. We want to preserve our little church because of what it's meant to our little town. We want to get back on track.
EC, you have no idea how ridiculously bureaucratic the PCUSA is. It may as well be the federal government. One "wrong" move, and they'll threaten to take our church building. It may come to that.
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musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess. **nononono*
Just as a word of encouragement. We were without a pastor when we left the PCUSA. (We had no interim, however, just pulpit fillers). It was Session who investigated the options (they really did their homework!), and settled on the EPC to seek to join. It took a while before we were full members, and it did happen after we found a pastor, but it's the best thing that has ever happened to our congregation.
We did have a lawyer from the EPC to protect our property rights (our church preceded the PCUSA, so we were able to keep the building legally), but it was worth everything to get out of that denomination.
Do you have some Elders with backbones? I'm not sure how much authority an Interim Pastor has, according to the Book of Order, but it may be that your Session can overrule him/her.
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Our church - our small congregation, that is - doesn't go against my beliefs. The denomination does. We want to preserve our little church because of what it's meant to our little town. We want to get back on track.
EC, you have no idea how ridiculously bureaucratic the PCUSA is. It may as well be the federal government. One "wrong" move, and they'll threaten to take our church building. It may come to that.
Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.
It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.
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Wow, musiclady, I may be in touch with you. We just need someone to help us negotiate the minefield. We have some money in an investment account and you can bet the presbytery would like to get its hands on it.
As noted, I'm an elder (with backbone, I hope!) and I know most, if not all, of the rest of the session would support our exodus out of darkness.
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Wow, musiclady, I may be in touch with you. We just need someone to help us negotiate the minefield. We have some money in an investment account and you can bet the presbytery would like to get its hands on it.
As noted, I'm an elder (with backbone, I hope!) and I know most, if not all, of the rest of the session would support our exodus out of darkness.
Please do get in touch with me! Neither my husband nor I were Ruling Elders when it happened, but he's on Session now, and I'm sure we can get material to you, or give you some contact info to help you get started.
You DEFINITELY have backbone! :patriot:
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Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.
It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.
If the Bible is anything to go by, I'd think God spent more time in the pool halls, tents and trenches looking for lost souls.
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Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.
It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.
That is true. What were the Romans good at? Administration. Even though I prefer "papists". :tongue2:
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That is true. What were the Romans good at? Administration. Even though I prefer "papists". :tongue2:
You heretics and your labels .... :tongue2:
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I am an elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and really, really want to get my congregation out of this apostate denomination - which is losing dozens of churches each year, for good reason. Here's just one example of what we're dealing with, from the PCUSA website:Wow, how incredibly praiseworthy. **nononono*
I gave up on the Presbyterian Church many years ago.
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Just as a word of encouragement. We were without a pastor when we left the PCUSA. (We had no interim, however, just pulpit fillers). It was Session who investigated the options (they really did their homework!), and settled on the EPC to seek to join. It took a while before we were full members, and it did happen after we found a pastor, but it's the best thing that has ever happened to our congregation.
We did have a lawyer from the EPC to protect our property rights (our church preceded the PCUSA, so we were able to keep the building legally), but it was worth everything to get out of that denomination.
Do you have some Elders with backbones? I'm not sure how much authority an Interim Pastor has, according to the Book of Order, but it may be that your Session can overrule him/her.
Wow, now THAT is an accomplishment! I too am an elder (not ruling at the moment) and would be nothing short of amazed to see something like that come out of our Session.
mountaineer--please keep us posted on your church's progress.
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Wow, now THAT is an accomplishment! I too am an elder (not ruling at the moment) and would be nothing short of amazed to see something like that come out of our Session.
mountaineer--please keep us posted on your church's progress.
It was like coming 'home,' Lipstick.
As a Bible believing, conservative Evangelical church, we were like a fish out of water for decades in the PCUSA. I was actually raised a Baptist (Swedish Baptist, specifically) and my husband and I became Presbyterians in our forties, but the local church we joined was doctrinally very close to our upbringing. It was only the nasty, leftist denomination that delayed our joining, but we did so eventually.
When we freed ourselves from the very powerful (and I might say, demonic) grip of the PCUSA and joined with the EPC, it was like, as I said, being home............where we belonged. Solid theology, solid belief in the authority of Scripture, majoring on the major and letting minor differences be settled in local congregations....... all around good stuff! ^-^
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If I ever can get all the other stuff in my life organized, musiclady, I may talk to you about driving up to chat with your session or at least the clerk of session during your transition - also could discuss via email. Only one church in our presbytery has left the PCUSA so far (also for the EPC) and I also need to get some advice from them. Maybe after Easter. Will let you know.
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If I ever can get all the other stuff in my life organized, musiclady, I may talk to you about driving up to chat with your session or at least the clerk of session during your transition - also could discuss via email. Only one church in our presbytery has left the PCUSA so far (also for the EPC) and I also need to get some advice from them. Maybe after Easter. Will let you know.
Just let me know what you need and I'll try to do whatever I can.
You know where I live. :laugh:
(In the meantime, you might check out The Layman online. It's a good resource regarding getting out of the PCUSA).
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The latest from the lefties at PCUSA:
Presbyterian Church (USA) wants to raise your taxes, though it pays none
The Presbyterian Church (USA), which pays no Federal Income taxes or property taxes as a non-profit religious organization, wants to see your taxes raised.
Produced by the denomination’s Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy and backed by the Presbyterian Mission Agency, the tax reform proposal entitled “Tax Justice: A Christian Response to a New Gilded Age” would make the U.S. tax system:
• “more progressive, taxing those with greater wealth at higher proportions of their income, wealth, and inheritance;
• “more transparent, which includes both simplicity and accountability for all tax preferences and tax expenditures;
• “more solidarity-focused, which means reducing the use of tax expenditures, shelters and havens, and supporting more adequate international standards to reduce tax competition within and among nations;
• “more sustainable for current and future generations, which means avoiding unproductive financial and ecological indebtedness; and
• “more adequate, effectively addressing broader objectives of economic and social health than efficiency alone, such as meaningful employment, improved family life, and restored public trust. The tax system must be characterized by both efficiency in tax collection and revenue sufficient for the common good.”
The recommendation section of the Presbyterian proposal threatens to bite off the very hand that feeds it as it seeks the elimination of all deductions for charitable contributions. “Charitable contributions are only deductible by the approximately 25 percent of taxpayers who itemize deductions. Although tax-exempt charitable organizations (including religious bodies) play a critical role in our country, the nonprogressive means by which most tax-exempt organizations are financed means that nonprofits have a great responsibility to provide social benefit, broadly conceived, and to prevent leaders and managers from receiving undue personal gain.”
The recommendations target high-income Americans which are also the people who traditionally populate Presbyterian pews. The denomination’s proposed tax overhaul includes other tax hikes for its own members:
• “The mortgage interest deduction as currently constructed privileges those who borrow the most; it should be limited to one residence and capped at a level that has a meaningful relationship to average home costs (i.e. that reflects reasonable housing needs rather than luxury market subsidies);
• “Rules governing tax exempt ‘social welfare organizations’ (501(c)(4)s) should exclude or strictly limit the eligibility of donations for partisan political purposes, parties and candidates, and the individual and corporate donors to or through such organizations should be made public due to their influence on the political process.
• “The exclusion of capital gains on home sales privileges high-value property owners who can make maximum use of exclusion.
• “The exclusion of certain foreign-earned income (up to $95,100 in 2012) and housing benefits privileges income earned out of the country and encourages the movement of United States citizens to foreign jurisdictions.
• “The capping of property taxes for senior citizens privileges many elders while burdening younger citizens of similar income. This tax expenditure does not appear to adhere to the principle of progressivity; means testing is one solution to this, as is raising the cap, depending on jurisdiction.
• “Work to cap deductions for state tax, and municipal bond interest exemptions, for very high net worth households.”
The PCUSA will vote on the proposal at the meeting of the denomination’s General Assembly, June 14-21 in Detroit.
Presbyterian Layman (a nonPCUSA souorce) (http://www.layman.org/presbyterian-church-usa-wants-raise-taxes-though-pays-none/)
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Presbyterian Church USA Teams Up With American Islamists
The Church is an official interfaith partner with U.S. Muslim Brotherhood entities and supporters of Sharia for America.
By Ryan Mauro
Sun, October 6, 2013
A writer giving soft treatment to Islamists wouldn’t be a new development, but Ben Daniel isn’t just any writer. He’s the pastor of a church and his book was published by the Presbyterian Church USA. This church of 1.8 million has become an ally of Islamists.
Pastor Ben Daniel leads Foothill Presbyterian Church of San Jose and his book, The Search for Truth About Islam: A Christian Pastor Separates Fact from Fiction, was released on March 25 by the official publisher of the Presbyterian Church USA.
His book “explores what he calls ‘the American cult of fear,’ particularly as it relates to the rise of Islamophobia in the United States.”
Islamists have used the term “Islamophobia” to gain political influence and bash opponents – including ant-Islamists Muslims -- long before the 9/11 attacks. Now, even Muslims are speaking out against the abuse of the term.
At an August 22 speaking engagement at Sunnyvale Presbyterian Church, which was attended by almost 150 people, Pastor Daniel said that the CIA estimates there are less than 20,000 terrorists in the entire world.
That’s incorrect, but many Christians in the audience won’t know that. The UN says Al-Shabaab in Somalia alone has 5,000 members. Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria has around 7,000 members. There are over 50 groups designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations by the U.S. State Department, most of which are Islamic.
Pastor Daniel’s willful blindness to the greater Islamist threat is apparent in his book when he upholds Imam Zaid Shakir as an admirable moderate. He says that Shakir’s Zaytuna College in California is “filling an important niche in American higher education.” There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about the education there – including one from earlier this year, when Shakir said that Sharia-based governance is superior to the U.S. Constitution.
Specifically, Shakir said that constitution-based citizenship is “a lofty ideal but after 200, 300 years of experimentation, we find that inequality is greater than it has ever been in the history of humanity.” Instead, governance based on Islamic law is what should be pursued, he asserted.
“Secularism says we keep religion out. Why? Because if we have religion and religion is the basis of membership in the community, we can’t have perfect equality. We can’t have perfect equality. If Islam is the basis, the kafir won’t be equal with the Muslim. The Christian or the Jew will be a dhimmi. They won’t be equal with the Muslim,” he preached.
In 2006, Shakir told the New York Times “he still hoped that one day the United States would be a Muslim country ruled by Islamic law.” ....
The Presbyterian Church USA is an official interfaith partner of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), a U.S. Muslim Brotherhood entity and unindicted co-conspirator in the largest terrorism financing trial in American history.
The two are also both members of the Shoulder-to-Shoulder Campaign. ISNA is so proud of the interfaith coalition that it bragged about it during a meeting with Islamist Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan this year.
The Presbyterian Church also is part of the Religions for Peace USA coalition that also has a heavy Islamist component including ISNA. The Church has a representative on its Executive Council and Council of Presidents.
In July 2012, the Presbyterian Church Office of Public Witness blasted Rep. Michele Bachmann and four other members of Congress as essentially being bigoted “Joseph McCarthys.” ...
Rest of article (http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/presbyterian-church-teams-american-islamists)
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After Pressure from BDS leaders, GA Middle East Committee Moderator Is Removed
Presbyterians for Middle East Peace (http://www.pfmep.org/press-releases/145-after-pressure-from-bds-leaders-ga-middle-east-committee-moderator-is-removed)
The Presbyterian Church, USA has always been known for its strenuous debates of controversial issues. It has never been known for ideological purges. That changed a few weeks ago.
On April 1, 2014, after a thorough vetting of his abilities to be moderator of the GA committee on Middle East Issues, GA Moderator Neal Presa announced that Rev. Al Butzer, the widely respected senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Virginia Beach, VA, was appointed as the committee’s moderator. The appointment was hailed by centrists in the church who seek a more reasonable debate of the issues. Throughout his long career, Rev. Butzer has been found standing on the center ground in the church’s controversies, searching for consensus viewpoints between the extremes. He is also known for his ability to moderate a meeting in a fair and ethical manner, making sure that all voices are heard and all sides of a debate are treated equally.
However, advocates of the Israel-targeted Boycott, Divest, and Sanction (BDS) movement did not share the widespread approval of Rev. Butzer’s appointment. Instead, they questioned Rev. Butzer’s personal integrity by saying that he was incapable of leading a fair hearing on Middle East issues and demanded that he be replaced as moderator of the committee. Less than a week after his nomination, Rev. Butzer was forced to step aside when the GA’s Moderator and Stated Clerk succumbed to the lobbying from the BDS proponents.
During the week of April 1-6, BDS leaders told Stated Clerk Gradye Parsons and General Assembly Moderator Neal Presa that Rev. Butzer should be disqualified because he and Jewish clergy led two trips to Israel with congregants from Christian and Jewish congregations in Virginia. The trips were not political. They had the goal of helping participants discuss the places where Judaism and Christianity are similar and where they are different. As is not unusual in trips in which clergy act as leaders, none of the three clergy paid their own expenses. Clergy expenses were paid by the Jewish Federation of Richmond, VA.
Friends of Rev. Butzer are dismayed that the BDS movement’s unfair criticism of his ability to moderate the Committee on Middle East Issues failed to mention that he also took two subsidized trips to the Middle East in which most of his time was spent talking with Palestinian leaders, including Archbishop Elias Chacour, and visited Palestinian refugee camps. His friends were also in disbelief that Rev. Butzer was attacked by the BDS camp for attending a Virginia interfaith Passover Seder in which not only Jews but Muslims were present.
To leaders of the PCUSA’s divestment movement, it is irrelevant that Rev. Butzer:
* has visited and listened to all sides in the Middle East, including Palestinian-led trips to refugee camps in the West Bank;
* has established a reputation for fairness on controversial issues and polity expertise that spans his career in Chicago Presbytery, National Capital Presbytery and the Presbytery of Eastern Virginia;
* was nominated to be a committee moderator by numerous Presbytery executives who have worked with him over the years;
* stands in the center of the church on issues, not in alliance with interest groups lobbying for a particular outcome on issues.
The only thing that matters to our denomination’s BDS leadership is that Rev. Butzer traveled to Israel with a group of Christians and Jews and attended an interfaith Passover Seder service in his hometown. Peacemaking apparently does not include traveling with Jews, visiting Palestinians such as Archbishop Chacour or breaking bread with interfaith partners in one’s own hometown.
It is puzzling that neither the Stated Clerk nor the Moderator of the General Assembly reached out to anyone who nominated Rev. Butzer or had experience with him as a leader in a Presbytery or Synod to hear if there was another side to the distorted image of Rev. Butzer that was spread by the BDS leaders. His colleagues in ministry are stunned that they were not given a chance to explain just how preposterous the charges against Rev. Butzer’s integrity and professionalism are.
Thanks to the actions of the BDS leaders, we now have some new litmus tests for being a moderator of committees at General Assemblies. They are:
* Clergy should not lead trips to the Middle East in which they travel with Jews from their own communities;
* Clergy should not accept subsidies for leading trips with their congregations; and
* Clergy should avoid interfaith celebrations such as shared Seder services.
Our denomination’s BDS leadership may feel as though it was a great victory to force the General Assembly’s Moderator to change his mind about the nomination of a widely respected centrist in the church. In fact, it was a defeat for the church we love. The church always loses when honorable servants are subjected to ideological attacks intended to smear their reputations. Will the application of ideological litmus tests be applied to other moderators of General Assembly committees who will be dealing with controversial issues? We pray not.
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Good Lord.
The sooner you and your fellow congregation members get out of there, the better.
How is it going?
Was thinking - if you lose the church building, you could always ask your local Catholic Bishop for space. His Holiness is all about outreach and interfaith assistance, as indeed Pope Benedict was. In a time when more and more are turning from God, every believer is precious! It may mean shifting service times, but at least you'll still have a place to worship.
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I think the year was 2011 when the PCUSA changed its basic structure, by edict, and in that two things happened.
1. The authority of Scripture was replaced with the winds of popular culture.
2. The autonomy of the individual congregation was removed and the general assembly given power to assert complete authority over congregations. (Not unlike what Obama has done to this country in asserting the absolute power of the federal government over the will of the people/states).
(It was at that point that our congregation pulled out and joined the EPC).
All these statements by the PCUSA are in keeping with the surge left they took when they changed structure. They are a semi-religious wing of the Democrat party. Period.
The real Presbyterians, true to its theology, Book of Order and philosophy are leaving in droves.
I anticipate that they will keep swerving farther left, away from Scriptural truth, since they can no longer be checked by moderate or conservative congregations.
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Mr. M and I attended our presbytery meeting last week and just couldn't take it (thank goodness we could blame our bad backs for walking out after 2 hours and 15 minutes). All they cared about was how to maintain the bureaucracy. So what if our presbytery alone has lost 2/3 of its membership over the past few decades? They don't even stop to wonder why.
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Mr. M and I attended our presbytery meeting last week and just couldn't take it (thank goodness we could blame our bad backs for walking out after 2 hours and 15 minutes). All they cared about was how to maintain the bureaucracy. So what if our presbytery alone has lost 2/3 of its membership over the past few decades? They don't even stop to wonder why.
It's just like the NYT and their readership, or CNN and their viewership.
No one on the radical left 'stops' and 'wonders' anything that those of us who are sane question.
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Presbyterians Escalate War on Jews
Jonathan S. Tobin | @tobincommentary
05.06.2014 - 5:20 PM
In February of this year I wrote about the latest instance of the Presbyterian Church USA engaging in hostile behavior toward both Israel and the Jewish people. A new study guide and companion CD about the Middle East published by an official Presbyterian group sought to delegitimize Israel and whitewash those who wage war and terrorism against it. Even worse, it compared Zionism to anti-Semitism and said that American Jews who supported Israel were not faithful to their religion. On top of the denomination’s past flirtations with the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) movement that seeks to wage economic war on Israel, the study guide demonstrated just how deep the hatred for Jews had become among some church officials. But an even more recent incident illustrates that these episodes are not aberrations but reflect a clear desire on the part of church cadres to treat any normal contact with Jews as beyond the pale.
What has happened is that a Virginia Beach pastor who was slated to take a leadership role in a church forum at its annual General Assembly has been pressured to resign by Presbyterian Church USA officials. What was his offense? Taking part in two trips to Israel sponsored by a Jewish group. As Rev. Albert Butzer relates in a piece he wrote about his experience for The Presbyterian Outlook, he had looked forward to being the official moderator of the Committee on Middle East Issues at the denomination’s General Assembly. But he was forced out when it came out that he had gone to Israel on trips organized by the Jewish Community Federation of Richmond, Virginia. Though he had previously been to the region on two trips organized by the Palestinians, the mere fact that he had been exposed to Israel’s side of the story in the conflict was enough to brand him as untrustworthy. ...
Read the rest at Commentary Magazine (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2014/05/06/presbyterians-escalate-war-on-jews/)
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Yet another example of how the radical left in America is trying to silence the voice of ANY opinion other than their own.
Only when that voice is in support of Israel, and it is a 'church' shutting it down, they are treading in dangerous waters.
God is not mocked, PCUSA.
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GA is next month in the vacation spot of America, Detroit. I hope they have a swell time. :pondering:
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Here we go:
Stated Clerk asks President to honor protections afforded to children
July 11, 2014
Office of the General Assembly
Gradye Parsons
Stated Clerk of the General Assembly.
Louisville
The Reverend Gradye Parsons, Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, wrote a letter to the President of the United States expressing concern for the protection of unaccompanied children. The full letter is posted below.
July 8, 2014
President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Dear President Obama,
I write to you today on behalf of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to express deep concern regarding the implication that your administration may seek to relax the protections afforded to unaccompanied children under the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act (TVPRA).
While it is clear that our current immigration judicial system is ill-equipped to respond to the needs that the tens of thousands of unaccompanied children present, the answer to this problem should not involve the curtailment of protections to children during their hour of need. The United States often calls upon other countries that are less equipped to accept persons fleeing dangerous circumstances.[1] It is now our nation’s turn to do what we have asked so many other countries to do before.
I am grateful that your budget request submitted to Congress on Tuesday includes money for more immigration judges, legal orientation, and legal representation services. This request could bring relief to the overwhelmed judicial system while also honoring the protections that ensure each child receive a full and fair hearing on any humanitarian claim he or she may make.
The implication, however, that the administration must also make changes to the TVPRA or give the Secretary of Homeland Security authority to exercise discretion thereby administratively diminishing the protections of the TVPRA is unacceptable.
As required by the TVPRA, unaccompanied children must:
Be placed in the least restrictive setting that is in the best interest of the child;
Not be placed in a secured facility unless they are a danger to themselves or others or have been charged with a criminal offense;
Receive legal orientation;
Have access to counsel;
Receive a child advocate;
Have their asylum or other relief from deportation applications considered using procedures that take into account their specialized needs as unaccompanied children; and
Be in contact with federal personnel who have had specialized training to work with unaccompanied children and identify children for trafficking victimization and asylum or other special immigrant relief.
Anything less than these standards will place children at risk of being returned to dangerous and exploitative situations. Our country cannot take away these vital protections when there are so many vulnerable children in need of them.
In Christ,
The Reverend Gradye Parsons
Stated Clerk of the General Assembly
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
[1]Anne C. Richard, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration, U.S. Department of State. Statement to the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Human Rights, January 2014. www.state.gov/j/prm/releases/remarks/2014/219388.htm.
Link (http://www.pcusa.org/news/2014/7/11/stated-clerk-asks-president--protections-children/)
This came to me from the presbytery with a request for donations.
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Does the PCUSA ever bother with the Gospel these days, or is it simply a Democrat political machine and nothing more?
I'm waiting for them to start screaming "KILL THE JEWS!" **nononono*
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Does the PCUSA ever bother with the Gospel these days, or is it simply a Democrat political machine and nothing more?
I'm waiting for them to start screaming "KILL THE JEWS!" **nononono*
I'm sure you heard about their divestiture vote at GA a few weeks ago. They sure do hate those pesky Israelis. Kind of like pharoah!
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The PCUSA soldiers on (another letter from the presbytery) ...
Here is a firsthand account that we received last Saturday from our friends in Arizona, "a brief piece of info of what is happening in Yuma and nationwide in regard to the homeless refugee children and families coming across our border.
Friday David Hicks reached out to PDA because the situation is getting too big for the Yuma ecumenical association to manage. This morning both PDA and Church World Services contacted him to get more info and (hooray!) actually asked him, "What do you need?" Yes!!! He told me he's hoping to find someplace other than church basements to house these moms and kids, like maybe someplace with showers? It might involve rent. Food is coming in from the area food bank, and the churches can provide people to be with the immigrants.
One of the issues making it harder is the fact that anyone who can leave Yuma in the summer does so. Meaning that he won't be able to inform his own elders until Sunday - other churches of course have the same problem.
Another issue is the expense of transporting migrants from where ICE drops them off to where ever they have family and/or connections. The cost for transporting people is picked up by their family.
Again, these are not primarily Mexicans, so when the GOP screams "ship 'em home!" it's not that simple. They are not here looking for landscaping or housecleaning jobs, they are trying to escape death squads and drug cartels. [That's what they say, anyway --- mountaineer] So Church World Services may be instrumental in getting them recognized as refugees.
The PCUSA is mobilizing through PDA (Presby Disaster Assistance.) There was a joint synod meeting from AZ thru TX this morning talking about all the different situations with children that are coming across. Right now, the PCUSA is not really going to be addressing the root of the problem in central America, but that will come later, probably through the peacemaking office in DC. What is happening will be a nationwide appeal for funds for these children. Yuma will be receiving part of these funds.
Churches in Yuma already have feet on the ground and have people ready to help when refugees are dropped off at Wal Mart. These refugees are in incredible need, usually in a state of shock for the journey they have been through in the past month, and have family awaiting them somewhere in the nation. They are paroled from the border patrol, so they are documented, but have no language or (U.S.) cultural skills, etc. The churches only have them for about 24 hours, and then they move on to join family members. They will be required to appear in court, and most will be returned to their nation of origin.
For anyone looking for ways to help, watch for the appeals from the nationwide church, and give generously. There will be an PDA account number associated with this cause. "
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From Landon Whitsitt, who has an official position with the PCUSA synod of Mid-America (http://synodma.org/blog/2014/8/19/a-call-to-presbyterians-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-the-people-of-ferguson):
A Call to Presbyterians to Stand in Solidarity with the People of Ferguson
Sisters and Brothers of the Presbyterian Church (USA):
I write you today in my role as the Executive of the Synod of Mid-America regarding the past week’s events in Ferguson, MO, a community in the Giddings-Lovejoy Presbytery, one of our member presbyteries. I am appealing to you on behalf of those suffering in our own backyard.
For 10 days, the eyes of the world have been focused on the town of Ferguson, MO. We have watched as the family and friends of Michael Brown grieve the horrendous and senseless loss of life of this young man. We have watched as the Ferguson community and people throughout the nation and world have expressed outrage over the killing of yet another unarmed young black man. We have watched as law enforcement has repeatedly inflamed and aggravated the situation, arresting peaceful protesters and using tear gas on the crowds that include children and elderly, the use of which is a war crime under international law.
It is good that we have watched and not turned away. Many have come to believe that we have moved past Watts, that we have moved past LA. But we have not. The testimony of those who have lived through some of the worst moments of our nation’s history has born witness that we have, again, arrived at a familiar place. We are, again, singing the same old song. We must not turn our faces away, we must force ourselves to acknowledge and admit that we continue to fail as a people. We must confess that we have not been the people that God has created and called us to be.
Today I call on the Presbyterian Church (USA) to do more than simply watch.
For several years, our denomination has engaged the words of the Belhar Confession as we have considered adding it to our official confessional standards. Whether or not that occurs, we can affirm the truth of its words:
We believe
· that God has revealed himself as the one who wishes to bring about justice and true peace among people;
· that God, in a world full of injustice and enmity, is in a special way the God of the destitute, the poor and the wronged
· that God calls the church to follow him in this; for God brings justice to the oppressed and gives bread to the hungry;
· that God frees the prisoner and restores sight to the blind;
· that God supports the downtrodden, protects the stranger, helps orphans and widows and blocks the path of the ungodly;
· that for God pure and undefiled religion is to visit the orphans and the widows in their suffering;
· that God wishes to teach the church to do what is good and to seek the right;
· that the church must therefore stand by people in any form of suffering and need, which implies, among other things, that the church must witness against and strive against any form of injustice, so that justice may roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream;
· that the church as the possession of God must stand where the Lord stands, namely against injustice and with the wronged; that in following Christ the church must witness against all the powerful and privileged who selfishly seek their own interests and thus control and harm others.
To this end, I call on the members and congregations of the Presbyterian Church (USA), over 90% of whom are White, to stand with the people of Ferguson and “witness against and strive against” systemic, institutionalize racial injustice.
We must “as the possession of God…stand where the Lord stands, namely against the injustice of the wronged.” Sisters and Brothers, we must stand arm in arm with the people of Ferguson. Black bodies matter and our white bodies will signify that the killing of black bodies is unacceptable.
If you live in or around St Louis please come and walk with the protestors. Listen to their cries, and join them in the call for justice.
If you live farther away, find the members of your own community who are standing against this injustice. Listen to their cries, and join them in their own call for justice.
The Brief Statement of Faith tells us that the Holy Spirit “gives us courage…to work with others for justice, freedom, and peace.” So as we work, let us also pray.
Let us pray for:
· an end to our warring madness
· an end to racism, classism and the way we criminalize a whole generation of youth and young adults
· peace officers, that they may keep the peace with justice and equity
· mothers who have lost their children to gun violence
· the courage to cross lines that we have never crossed, and to come to know those we have considered "other"
· to see one another as those who are made in God's image
· forgiveness for the ways in which we perpetuate fear and hatred
· forgiveness for the silence of good people.
Rev. Landon Whitsitt
Executive and Stated Clerk of the Synod of Mid-America
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The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.
The nature of the office is to be a 'people-pleaser'. Being a liberal 'people-pleaser' is much easier than being a conservative shepherd and that won't change.
Even in the most conservative denominations, I would not recommend 'following' a leader.
You really need to be your own pastor, but that takes more work...
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What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.
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What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.
"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." - Hebrews 10:24-25
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"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." - Hebrews 10:24-25
That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.
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That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.
Suit yourself... :shrug:
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That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.
It says everything about a church—by definition, it is a congregation (as some have translated that word from the original Greek) of believers.
What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.
Jesus says “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them.” (Matthew 18:20)
One cannot be a Christian in a vacuum. The gathering of fellow believers has been a key part of Christianity since the time Jesus was on this Earth. The church is not a building, a structure, or even a pastor or organization. It is the group of people who come together in the Lord's name.
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It says everything about a church—by definition, it is a congregation (as some have translated that word from the original Greek) of believers.
Jesus says “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them.” (Matthew 18:20)
One cannot be a Christian in a vacuum. The gathering of fellow believers has been a key part of Christianity since the time Jesus was on this Earth. The church is not a building, a structure, or even a pastor or organization. It is the group of people who come together in the Lord's name.
So a bunch of Christians could see each other and celebrate God in a field or in one of their homes and it would be just as good as doing it in a church?
EDIT: Also...
church
CHərCH/
noun
noun: church; plural noun: churches
1.
a building used for public Christian worship.
"they came to church with me"
synonyms: place of worship, house of God, house of worship; More
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What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy?
No one made such a claim, so I'm not sure why you're asking. Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God?
No, but our pastors are there to teach us and help us better understand Scripture. Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate?
Not sure how you define "being a good Christian," so it's hard to respond to that question. Simply praying at home doesn't make one a Christian. At the same time, as the late Keith Green used to say, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger. It depends on your relationship with God. It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.
Again, no one has made that claim. We go to church for fellowship with our fellow believers, for communal worship of our God and to learn from His holy word. In my church, we use the building to host monthly free community dinners, concerts and the like - things that require a building of some sort. The building is not the church, it is just a tool used by church to do the work of God.
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No one made such a claim, so I'm not sure why you're asking.No, but our pastors are there to teach us and help us better understand Scripture. Not sure how you define "being a good Christian," so it's hard to respond to that question. Simply praying at home doesn't make one a Christian. At the same time, as the late Keith Green used to say, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger. It depends on your relationship with God. Again, no one has made that claim. We go to church for fellowship with our fellow believers, for communal worship of our God and to learn from His holy word. In my church, we use the building to host monthly free community dinners, concerts and the like - things that require a building of some sort. The building is not the church, it is just a tool used by church to do the work of God.
Nobody said some of those things in this thread, but I've seen a lot of Christians imply that going to church is a mandatory part of your service to God, and that Christians that don't are not doing it right. By good Christian I just meant a believer that does their best to follow the teachings of Christ in their everyday lives. Is the person who does this without church a less legitimate Christian? It doesn't make sense to me that the church itself is such an important part of following the teachings of Jesus.
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So a bunch of Christians could see each other and celebrate God in a field or in one of their homes and it would be just as good as doing it in a church?
That is how the Amish do it, and it's a perfectly legitimate way of worship. Most others do it in church buildings, mainly as a way to build something separate, a refuge from the rest of the world, if you will.
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During worship at Presbyterian mission agency board meeting in Louisville celebrating Native American Day, the Lord's Prayer as offered prior to the celebration of Lord's Supper:
O, Great Spirit, creator of the universe, you are our shepherd chief in the most high place. Whose hoome is everywhere, even beyond the stars and the moon. Whatever you want done, let it, also be done everywhere. Give us your gift of bread day by day. Forgive us our wrongs as we forgive those who wrong us. Take us away from wrong doings. Free us from all evil. For everything belongs to you. Let your power and glory shine forever. Amen.
This was posted on the Presbyterian Layman's Facebook page, where it was noted that this is not "the Lord's prayer" as the actual Lord, Jesus Christ, taught it.
For what it's worth, today I notified my PCUSA church that I resigned all offices, committees and activities, effective immediately.
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For what it's worth - not much - I'm proud of you.
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During worship at Presbyterian mission agency board meeting in Louisville celebrating Native American Day, the Lord's Prayer as offered prior to the celebration of Lord's Supper:
This was posted on the Presbyterian Layman's Facebook page, where it was noted that this is not "the Lord's prayer" as the actual Lord, Jesus Christ, taught it.
For what it's worth, today I notified my PCUSA church that I resigned all offices, committees and activities, effective immediately.
I'm sorry you had to do it, but at the same time glad that you have taken a stand in God's name. I hope you find another church that adheres more closely to the Gospel.
(I do find it interesting that although the second half of the supposed prayer adheres fairly closely as a paraphrase, and I guess considering we're not reading it in the original Greek or Aramaic that there's a certain amount of liberty that can be taken in that regard, the prayer goes out of its way to avoid hallowing the Lord's name. It is as if they are asking the right things, but to the wrong God. They'll be sorry they ever did that.)
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Thanks, EC and JMyrle. I appreciate your comments.
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Warren Wilson Presbyterian to host interfaith forum
Dale Neal, January 14, 2016
Citizen-Times (http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/01/14/warren-wilson-presbyterian-hosts-interfaith-forum/78799044/) newspaper, AshevilleSWANNANOA - Two local congregations hope to start bridging the gaps of misunderstanding between Christian and Muslim believers.
The Rev. Heath Rada, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA), and Imam Mohamed Taha of the Asheville Islamic Center will host a public forum at 2 p.m. Sunday at the Warren Wilson Presbyterian Church.
The forum is in response to an invitation from the White House, issued to denominational-level faith leaders, to engage their congregations in a nationwide effort to bridge the growing racial and religious gap that continues to divide this country.
“The president is calling on the faith communities of the United States to stand up for justice, human rights and the basic religious principles of our nation,” Rada explained. “Such work is one of the defining characteristics of the Presbyterian Church.”
“We will gather as a sign of our shared commitment to building bridges of peace and understanding between Islam and Christianity,” Rada said.
“This is a wonderful opportunity to build amicable relationships with our Muslim neighbors. And we are glad to host this event on the weekend we celebrate the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,” said the Rev. Dr. Steve Runholt, pastor of the Warren Wilson Church.
“As Dr. King reminded us, Jesus crossed any number of religious and theological boundaries in his day in the service of love,” Runholt said. “In fact he cites a Samaritan — perhaps the contemporary equivalent of a Syrian — as a paradigm example of what God’s love looks like. In hosting this event, we’re simply trying to follow that example.”
:thud:
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Warren Wilson Presbyterian to host interfaith forum
Dale Neal, January 14, 2016
Citizen-Times (http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2016/01/14/warren-wilson-presbyterian-hosts-interfaith-forum/78799044/) newspaper, Asheville :thud:
:thud: :thud: :thud: :thud:
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They've finally outdone themselves in a way never imagined possible. Jumped the shark. The final straw. The last hurrah.
Prayers to Allah offered at PCUSA’s General Assembly plenary session
Jun 22 2016
by Paula R. Kincaid
“Allah bless us and bless our families and bless our Lord. Lead us on the straight path – the path of all the prophets: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad,” and so went the prayer offered up by Wajidi Said, from the Portland Muslim Community, as part of the “first order of business” during the opening plenary session of the 222nd General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
Wajidi was taking part in the assembly’s scheduled time of remembrance for those killed in the recent Orlando terrorist attack and those killed last year in the shooting at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston, S.C.
“In the days leading up to this assembly we all know that our nation’s peace has once again been ripped apart by an act of mass violence,” said Heath Rada, moderator of the 221st General Assembly, when introducing it.
The violence, he said, “tore at each of our hearts as it reminded us of too many tragedies and too many victims. We are all touched by the tragedy of violence in some way. Being from North Carolina, I am reminded of the Chapel Hill shooting of Muslims, and I am concerned of course as I recognize that yesterday was the one-year anniversary of the shootings at AME church in Charleston.”
Rada said that Stated Clerk Gradye Parsons requested the staff leadership of the PCUSA’s ecumenical and interfaith ministries — Robina Winbush, Laurie Anderson, Rick Ufford-Chase and Laurie Kraus, — “ to provide for us as a first order of business an opportunity to lift up these tragedies that are so much on our minds.”
Taking part in the time of remembrance was Donnie Woods, general presbyter of Charleston-Atlantic Presbytery, Dan Williams, general presbyter of Central Florida Presbytery, Terry McCrae Hill of Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Portland, and Eliana Maxim of Seattle Presbytery.
Beginning in Arabic, Said then switched to English and prayed: “Allah bless us and bless our families and bless our Lord. Lead us on the straight path – the path of all the prophets: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Peace be upon them all Amen.
“In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful, let us praise the Lord. The creator of the universe, the most merciful, the most compassionate and the Lord of the universe who has created us and made us into nations and tribes, from male and females that we may know each other, not that we might despise each other, or may despise each other. Incline towards peace and justice and trust in God, for the Lord is one that hears and knows everything and the servants of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful, gracious are those who walk in the earth in humility and when bigots and hateful and Islamaphobes address them, they say peace. Peace be upon them and peace be upon Allah.”
Story and video at Presbyterian Layman (http://www.layman.org/prayers-allah-offered-pcusas-general-assembly-plenary-session/)
@musiclady
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Wow. They're not even pretending to be Christian any more. The have truly gone over to the dark side......
btw, thanks for the "ping" @mountaineer
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btw, thanks for the "ping" @mountaineer
We've been attending an EPC church for the past several months. It's better for the blood pressure!
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They have gone off the deep end if they're now referring to Jesus as just one of the prophets. The gist of Christianity is that Jesus - Christ - is the Messiah, and not just another prophet.
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I agree that they're stealing - or at least extorting - the property of congregations who try to leave. My old congregation has dwindled to a few dozen, and I doubt they have the energy or strength to try to leave the PCUSA, which already knows the church has a $1 million+ endowment. So if they tried to leave the denomination, they'd have to pay a whopping "ransom."
PCUSA is all about money and progressive politics - not the Bible.
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We've been attending an EPC church for the past several months. It's better for the blood pressure!
Good for you! We've had to leave our church, but the EPC is a REAL Presbyterian denomination, unlike the travesty that now exists in the shell of the PCUSA.
They are no longer Christian in any sense of the word.
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Remind me again the difference between EPC and PCA. I know about PCUSA. I know about PCA. It is the EPC that I know little about. It might be the denomination my neighbors choose. I can't remember.
The major difference that comes to mind is that PCA doesn't permit females as elders or teachers. EPC says it's up to the congregation. EPC doesn't regulate the individual congregations quite as much as the PCA.
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UPDATE: At the conclusion of the afternoon plenary on Wednesday, June 22, the Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, Rev. Gradye Parsons, offered an apology. He said that he had become aware that some had found the prayer on Saturday offensive. Parsons said that sometimes mistakes can be made in ecumenical relationships and stated it was not intentional. “It was never the intention to offend anyone, and we offer an apology to those who were offended.”
**nononono*
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UPDATE: At the conclusion of the afternoon plenary on Wednesday, June 22, the Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, Rev. Gradye Parsons, offered an apology. He said that he had become aware that some had found the prayer on Saturday offensive. Parsons said that sometimes mistakes can be made in ecumenical relationships and stated it was not intentional. “It was never the intention to offend anyone, and we offer an apology to those who were offended.”
**nononono*
Ah yes, a typical leftist "good intentions" meme with the obligatory faulting of the ones who were offended without repenting for the offense.
These things aren't going to work when they come before a Holy God on Judgment Day.
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You really can't make this stuff up!
Gradye Parsons and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Apology
Posted on June 25, 2016 by mateenelass
Two days ago I reported on the travesty which occurred last Saturday in Portland at the 222nd General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church USA. Stated Clerk Gradye Parsons had asked some of his denominational employees to fashion a short worship service to commemorate the lives of shooting victims in Charleston and Orlando, and it was the first agenda item on the docket for Saturday afternoon. parsonsThe leadership deliberately designed this service not simply as an ecumenical affair (inviting leaders from other Christian denominations to help lead) but also as an interfaith event (inviting one leader from an anti-Christian religion — Islam).
Not surprisingly, the Muslim man, Wajdi Said, led the assembly in a prayer in Arabic from the Qur’an, and then proceeded to speak a prayer to Allah in English seeking the conversion of all there to Islam, and demoting Jesus to a status equal to other prophets, including non-biblical ones (Ishmael and Muhammad). The final part of the liturgy he read was something he, together with the denominational designers, must have created — it was a prayer based on four passages from the Qur’an (there was nothing recognizable from the Bible), and was in printed form as well as projected on screen for the assembly.
There was no visible negative reaction from the assembly, but a few days later the Stated Clerk received a protest letter written by a Korean Presbyterian and signed by 25 Assembly commissioners ( just under 5% of the 594 registered commissioners), drawing attention to the disgraceful judgment of those who had planned and permitted this act of casual blasphemy.
On Wednesday afternoon, Parsons read what has billed as an apology concerning the matter (the apology begins at the 2:44:54 mark of the linked video). It was carefully scripted, intending to ease hurt feelings without accepting any responsibility. Even the timing seemed planned to convey disdain for those who’d lodged the protest. At the end of business, just before the dinner break, the moderator called for announcements as commissioners were packing up. She turned things over to the Stated Clerk, who first announced that colorful ribbons could still be attached to prayer nets around the plenary hall. Then he gave directions for the community dinner about to start in the Portland Room. Then he paused, and without a word of introduction or explanation launched into the reading of his prepared statement as a final announcement:
“During the interfaith prayer service on Saturday in response to the killings in Charleston and Orlando, a prayer was offered that went beyond what had been scripted. It was an offense of the head, not of the heart; it came from one seeking to be authentically gracious, as part of the healing service. Some commissioners found it offensive. When in relationship with people of other faiths, sometimes we can inadvertently be offensive when meaning to be sensitive and ecumenical. It was never the intention of the one offering the prayer to offend any of us. Nevertheless, we offer an apology to all those who were offended.”
What is wrong with this terrible, horrible, no good, very bad apology? Where do I begin?
First, the fact that this statement was relegated to the obscurity of announcements at the end of the afternoon, when the least number of listeners would be there, without any advance notice or introduction, shows the lack of importance this matter held in the Stated Clerk’s mind. It is an silent snub of the protesters, disdainful of their viewpoint.
Second, either out of ignorance or intentionally for reasons of obfuscation, Gradye seems to equate “interfaith” and “ecumenical,” but the latter deals with relations among those of the same faith, whereas the former deals with relations among those of different faiths. By doing this, he hides the fact that he and his team concocted the plan to allow a follower of Allah to lead Presbyterians in a prayer dishonoring to the Trinity.
Third, in this “apology,” you’ll notice that Gradye never mentions exactly what the offense was, only that the one who prayed “went beyond what was scripted.” The implication is that if only he had stuck to the script, everything would have been all right. Is he really so spiritually tone-deaf as not to realize that inviting a Muslim, or any follower of a different god, to lead Christians in worship, is just plain wrong from a biblical point of view, regardless of the script followed? He never admits that his team came up with this idea, and didn’t see anything wrong with it.
Fourth, he exempts Mr. Said from any serious blame by saying he was trying to be authentically gracious, and that this was an offense of the head, not of the heart (whatever that means). I suppose by this Gradye is saying that when Mr. Said prayed to Allah that all the assembly be led to the “straight path”, thereby becoming Muslims, he really believed this to be the best option for Christians (who otherwise will end up in hell according to Islam), so he was being both authentic and gracious as a Muslim.
Fifth, when Gradye reports that only “some commissioners” found this situation offensive he implies there is room for doubt as to whether any transgression really occurred — perhaps it was just in the minds of the “super-sensitive” that a wrong happened, and ruffled feathers can be smoothed with some conciliatory words. But in fact, the true implication is that if most commissioners did not find this offensive, then indeed as Marcellus says in Shakespeare’s Hamlet, “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.” The PCUSA has much greater problems than one instance of blasphemous outrage at a General Assembly.
Lastly, and most egregiously, Gradye places the focus of blame upon Mr. Said. although he essentially excuses him by implying that “Muslims do what Muslims do — what else would you expect? He meant well, after all.” By doing this, he shifts attention away from his own wrongdoing of approving the invitation in the first place, and appears magnanimous in offering an apology on behalf of the misguided Muslim. And what is the apology? “We regret that you felt offended,” not, “We repent for having done something truly offensive to God and to His believing family.”
When I heard Gradye’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad apology, I couldn’t help remembering the golden calf incident in Exodus 32. ...
Rest of blog entry (https://mateenelass.wordpress.com/2016/06/25/gradye-parsons-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-apology/) by Mateen Elass, an Arab Reformed theologian.
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Liberal PCUSA leaders engage in personal attacks on Mateen Elass for what he wrote (above post). He responds here (https://mateenelass.wordpress.com/2016/07/05/a-crooked-take-on-the-straight-path/).
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Here they go again:
Presbyterians support black reparations, free education, income guarantees
by Gregory Tomlin | 20 October, 2016
LOUISVILLE, Kentucky (Christian Examiner) – The Presbyterian Church (USA), which has been hemorrhaging members since it began pressing for gay clergy and same-sex marriage almost a decade ago, is now aligning itself with a radical "social justice" group which demands the government pay reparations to all blacks in the form of free education and income.
On Oct. 19, the denomination's news service reported that the church's Israel/Palestine Mission Network (IPMN) endorsed the platform of the group calling itself the Movement for Black Lives (MBL).
IPMN itself is a social justice organization. Its chief spokesman, Bob Ross, associate professor of global cultural studies at Point Park University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, has written on the growth of "U.S. Imperialism" in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. He said IPMN endorsed MBL because the struggle blacks in America face is the same as the struggle the Palestinians face for liberation from Israel.
"These justice struggles are linked in that the people of Palestine are in solidarity with black people in America struggling for freedom, justice and equality," Ross said. "The black struggle and the Palestinian struggle for justice are not just parallels, but they're struggles where there is an exchange of ideas." ...
More at Christian Examiner (http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/presbyterians-endorse-palestinian-black-social-justice-struggle/51157.htm).
:nometalk:
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From the "it never ends" files:
PCUSA Apologizes for Boarding School Abuses in Alaska
By Lisa Demer, Alaska Dispatch News. For the first time, a church organization has apologized to the Alaska Federation of Natives for its treatment of Native people and especially for abuses in boarding schools.
The Presbyterian Church’s national general assembly agreed in June, at the prompting of Alaskans, to issue an apology to all Native Americans abused, mistreated or diminished through church schools and boarding schools or otherwise.
An expression of sorrow for long-ago wrongs was delivered in person at the AFN convention on Saturday by the Rev. Curt Karns, the Anchorage-based executive presbyter – or administrator – of the Presbytery of the Yukon.
“To those individuals who were physically, sexually and emotionally abused as students of the Indian boarding schools in which the (Presbyterian Church USA) was involved, we offer you our most sincere apology. You did nothing wrong; you were and are the victims of evil acts that cannot under any circumstances be justified or excused,” Karns told the AFN convention.
The apology was a notable moment on the final day of the convention at the Carlson Center. Delegates also considered some 35 resolutions on everything from Chukchi Sea polar bears to the need for tribal courts to food security — which some village residents said needs to encompass the importance of walrus hunts, reindeer herding and other rural practices. ...
More (http://www.layman.org/pcusa-apologize-school-abuses-alaska/).
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They've finally outdone themselves in a way never imagined possible. Jumped the shark. The final straw. The last hurrah.Story and video at Presbyterian Layman (http://www.layman.org/prayers-allah-offered-pcusas-general-assembly-plenary-session/)
@musiclady
@mountaineer
I once served as an elder in a PCUSA church. I learned enough in that one year to leave PCUSA. Dropped my key on the table and walked out. This was during the first votes to allow gays in clergy and to allow gay marriage.
Doesn't surprise me they are allowing this to happen.
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I was clerk of session when my husband (also an elder) and I walked out, @driftdiver
Now nothing surprises me.
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@mountaineer
I once served as an elder in a PCUSA church. I learned enough in that one year to leave PCUSA. Dropped my key on the table and walked out. This was during the first votes to allow gays in clergy and to allow gay marriage.
Doesn't surprise me they are allowing this to happen.
That's when our church pulled out of the PCUSA and joined the EPC........ before the mass exodus which followed.
Since then, unfortunately, we've had to leave that church and I find myself returning to my Baptist roots.
It was very freeing to get out from under the leftist domination of a once strong Christian organization. When you have a deliberate policy that social concerns supersede Scriptural commands, it's pretty clear what direction the denomination is headed.
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I don't see why a church needs bureaucracy
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I don't see why a church needs bureaucracy
The PCUSA bureaucracy is beyond comprehension, and I quite agree with you. I don't believe the EPC comes anywhere near the same level (we now attend an EPC church).
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This should surprise absolutely no one.
PCUSA Official Spreads Divisive Post-Election Discourse
Peter Johnson
Nov. 17, 2016
Juicy Ecumenism (https://juicyecumenism.com/2016/11/17/pcusa-j-herbert-nelson-ii-election-2016/)
The newly selected Stated Clerk of the Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA), Rev. Dr. J Herbert Nelson II, recently released a statement about the presidential election entitled, “When Incivility Becomes the Norm.” (https://www.presbyterianmission.org/story/incivility-becomes-norm/)
Nelson characterized his missive as a “response to the violence on America’s streets after the election of Mr. Donald Trump as President–Elect of the United States of America.” One might think, upon reading this introduction, that the venerable Reverend Doctor would be making an appeal for peace and calm. After all, peaceful protests are a proud legacy of the church, while violence and riots are generally discouraged by Christians.
Unfortunately, Rev. Dr. Nelson failed to discourage the violent protests even once in his 2000+ word letter (replete with seven footnotes). Instead, he declared his hope that the protests would pave the way for a particular public policy agenda that he favors.
He concedes that “President-Elect Trump is our newly elected leader,” but also characterizes the election as undemocratic and rigged by corporate interests. He also exhorts churches to undermine a not-yet-formulated immigration policy of the President-elect by harboring deportees in their “basements.”
The only instances where Rev. Dr. Nelson explicitly mentions violence is when he links Trump to an imagined future violence: “pain, suffering, and yes, death, which will be wrought by the promised policies of the incoming administration.”
At the heart of the letter is Rev. Dr. Nelson’s vision for “coalition building and community organizing, [where] we have an opportunity to create a vision of shared prosperity, safety, dignity, and justice that is truly inclusive and compelling to a broad base.”
The irony is completely lost on the PCUSA leader that a church that fails to be compelling to its own congregants—as evidenced by the steady exodus from the denomination—is now dispensing advice on how to grow a winning constituent base in politics. The denomination is becoming a parody of itself. ...
Rest of article (https://juicyecumenism.com/2016/11/17/pcusa-j-herbert-nelson-ii-election-2016/).