The Briefing Room

General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: Cincinnatus on January 18, 2014, 08:58:15 pm

Title: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Cincinnatus on January 18, 2014, 08:58:15 pm
Quote
State labor investigators have determined a Gresham bakery violated the civil rights of a same-sex couple when it refused to make a cake for the women's wedding.

The Bureau of Labor and Industries said Friday that it has wrapped up its investigation into Sweet Cakes by Melissa. Spokesman Charlie Burr said investigators found substantial evidence the bakery unlawfully discriminated against the couple based on their sexual orientation.

Oregon law bans discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in jobs and in places that serve the public, such as restaurants and bakeries.

The controversial case began a year ago. Rachel Cryer and Laurel Bowman of Portland say they were denied a wedding cake by the bakery's owners, who cited their own religious beliefs. Cryer and Bowman, who are domestic partners, soon lodged a complaint with the state.

The state will now oversee a conciliation process between the two parties to see if a settlement can be reached. If not, the labor bureau may pursue charges before an administrative law judge.

Paul Thompson, the Portland attorney representing Cryer and Bowman, said the women consider the investigation’s findings bittersweet. He said the two are about as pleased as they can be, given that state investigation ultimately determined they were discriminated against.

Herbert Grey, the Beaverton attorney representing bakery owners Aaron and Melissa Klein, said the investigation’s outcome was expected. He said the Kleins will participate in the conciliation process, but are maintaining their original stance.

The Kleins have contended they weren't discriminating against the couple, who were customers in the past. Instead, they say they were practicing their Constitutional right to religious freedom. They have said baking a cake for a same-sex wedding would violate their Christian beliefs.

A post on the business’ Facebook page about the investigation’s findings had attracted nearly 200 comments late Friday, most in support of the owners’ stance.

"They’re being punished by the state of Oregon for refusing to participate in an event that the state of Oregon does not recognize," Grey said.

In the months after the case unfolded, Sweet Cakes by Melissa closed up shop on the edge of downtown Gresham, and the Kleins moved the business to their home.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/01/sweet_cakes_by_melissa_investigation_wraps_up_as_state_finds_evidence_that_bakery_violated_civil_rights_for_refusing_to_make_same-sex_wedding_cake.html#incart_m-rpt-2
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Atomic Cow on January 18, 2014, 09:29:00 pm
Soon it will be criminal for a Christian or a church to refuse to give the homos whatever they want.

The left is so close to realizing their dream of criminalizing Christianity they can taste it.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 18, 2014, 09:32:42 pm
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/01/sweet_cakes_by_melissa_investigation_wraps_up_as_state_finds_evidence_that_bakery_violated_civil_rights_for_refusing_to_make_same-sex_wedding_cake.html#incart_m-rpt-2
time for somebody to out these two trouble making queers that bought the suit
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: flowers on January 18, 2014, 09:39:32 pm
Soon it will be criminal for a Christian or a church to refuse to give the homos whatever they want.

The left is so close to realizing their dream of criminalizing Christianity they can taste it.
Yes they can. They are real close.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 18, 2014, 10:59:46 pm
Yes they can. They are real close.
sounds like though Christians could have a real bacis for a lawsuit against the ACLU if they could prove that only Christian business are being targeted by these lawsuits.....I don't see any Muslim ,Jewish etc business being sued
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Chieftain on January 18, 2014, 11:33:21 pm
Under Oregon law, accepting a license to do business in the State means you have to comply with this kind of mandate, or else.

And this is all in accordance with State law as written by liberals.

Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: truth_seeker on January 19, 2014, 01:15:11 am
Under Oregon law, accepting a license to do business in the State means you have to comply with this kind of mandate, or else.

And this is all in accordance with State law as written by liberals.
Religious beliefs do not trump civil laws in America.

Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: jmyrlefuller on January 19, 2014, 02:33:27 am
Under Oregon law, accepting a license to do business in the State means you have to comply with this kind of mandate, or else.

And this is all in accordance with State law as written by liberals.
Yet the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution, along with Article I, sections 2 and 3 of the Oregon Constitution, prohibit the passage of laws that inhibit the free exercise of religion. So any compliance requirement that inhibits any reasonable free exercise, as this clearly does, is invalid.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 02:35:08 am
Religious beliefs do not trump civil laws in America.
so a muslin bakery should be forced to bake a wedding cake for bleep then?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Chieftain on January 19, 2014, 02:37:12 am
Religious beliefs do not trump civil laws in America.

Really?  Even when those "civil" laws are made up well after your religious beliefs??  Whatever happened to Grandfathering??

Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 02:37:21 am
Yet the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution, along with Article I, sections 2 and 3 of the Oregon Constitution, prohibit the passage of laws that inhibit the free exercise of religion. So any compliance requirement that inhibits any reasonable free exercise, as this clearly does, is invalid.
there are other bakeries these two bleep could have gone too
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Oceander on January 19, 2014, 03:13:01 am
Under Oregon law, accepting a license to do business in the State means you have to comply with this kind of mandate, or else.

And this is all in accordance with State law as written by liberals.



Under the laws of every state that follows.  It's analogous to the old canard about the Devil gets to call the tune if he pays the piper.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Fishrrman on January 19, 2014, 03:13:32 am
[[ Religious beliefs do not trump civil laws in America.  ]]

Oh yes, they do!

IF.... you're a muslim!
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Oceander on January 19, 2014, 03:14:59 am
Yet the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution, along with Article I, sections 2 and 3 of the Oregon Constitution, prohibit the passage of laws that inhibit the free exercise of religion. So any compliance requirement that inhibits any reasonable free exercise, as this clearly does, is invalid.

That argument is extremely unlikely to fly.  Engaging in a trade or business is generally not the sort of expressive speech that the First Amendment addresses.  Furthermore, the constitutional provisions go to what the state can force someone to do; if one freely consents to restrictions on one's First Amendment rights, then one has no one other than one's self to blame.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Atomic Cow on January 19, 2014, 05:24:01 am
I guess which know who here will demand that all churches be forced to "marry" the queers or face being shut down.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 05:39:42 am
I would have baked them that wedding cake.

S#it happens and orders get messed up sometimes.

(http://www.wedding-flowers-and-reception-ideas.com/images/wedding-cake-ideas-05.jpg)
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 19, 2014, 06:26:40 am
oops.......... it looked just like sugar, guess the sugar and salt got mixed up somewhere.   :silly:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 11:10:51 am
That argument is extremely unlikely to fly.  Engaging in a trade or business is generally not the sort of expressive speech that the First Amendment addresses.  Furthermore, the constitutional provisions go to what the state can force someone to do; if one freely consents to restrictions on one's First Amendment rights, then one has no one other than one's self to blame.
they did not refuse to sell them backed goods etc,just make them a wedding cake
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 19, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
I think there is a fundamental error here, in treating it as a freedom of speech/freedom of religion case.

Both sides have equal freedom of speech and freedom of religion - so how do you balance it out? Here in the UK (and throughout Europe) we have two well tested rights in common law that the founders never bothered to list - most likely because they were so self evident they decided to save ink.

Freedom of association and freedom of movement.

In my business, I have the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any or no reason. They have the complimentary right to not pay me for my services if they find my policies offensive or me personally offensive.

It's a more sensible way, and keeps clutter out of the court system.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 02:17:09 pm
Soon it will be criminal for a Christian or a church to refuse to give the homos whatever they want.

The left is so close to realizing their dream of criminalizing Christianity they can taste it.

Let's not get carried away.

The bigger question is why is it unlawful in this case, but signs in store windows that say, "no shirt, no shoes, no service!" is okay?

A business that refuses to bake a wedding cake because of the couple's sexual orientation IS discrimination.

"Shut up and bake" is appropriate here, IMO.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 02:19:19 pm
so a muslin bakery should be forced to bake a wedding cake for bleep then?

My oh my!  you debate just like a liberal.

But to answer your question in a word?  Yes! 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 02:21:35 pm
Really?  Even when those "civil" laws are made up well after your religious beliefs??  Whatever happened to Grandfathering??

Using that reasoning, a diner that was open for business prior to Rosetta Parks should still be allowed to refuse to serve Negroes.   :whistle:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 03:51:40 pm
Using that reasoning, a diner that was open for business prior to Rosetta Parks should still be allowed to refuse to serve Negroes.   :whistle:

IIRC Robert Kennedy had to use interstate commerce laws to overturn "for whites only" policies such as the ones you described (Boynton v. Virginia).

The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 19, 2014, 03:56:49 pm
IIRC Robert Kennedy had to use interstate commerce laws to overturn "for whites only" policies such as the ones you described (Boynton v. Virginia).

The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

Why not? I should, for example, be obliged to make and carve an altar for a Satanic cult? Someone comes in and asks me for one, I'll send them to a colleague who doesn't mind doing that. He gets the money, they get what they want, I get to keep my peace of mind.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 03:58:42 pm
IIRC Robert Kennedy had to use interstate commerce laws to overturn "for whites only" policies such as the ones you described (Boynton v. Virginia).

The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

Exactly, Luis.

Except "Ladies Nite" when they can get 50% off alcohol.   :laugh:

or

Senior citizen pricing providing discounts. 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 04:23:32 pm
Exactly, Luis.

Except "Ladies Nite" when they can get 50% off alcohol.   :laugh:

or

Senior citizen pricing providing discounts.

Positive discrimination seems to be socially acceptable.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 04:39:01 pm
Why not? I should, for example, be obliged to make and carve an altar for a Satanic cult? Someone comes in and asks me for one, I'll send them to a colleague who doesn't mind doing that. He gets the money, they get what they want, I get to keep my peace of mind.

Your business is licensed by the State, and there are laws that govern how you conduct that business.

Those laws do not apply to your behavior as an individual, but then again, you need no licensing to be an individual.

Would the world be a better place if we all generally lived and let live?

Absolutely.

Then again, "our side" is not good at that either.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 19, 2014, 04:58:42 pm
Your business is licensed by the State, and there are laws that govern how you conduct that business.

Those laws do not apply to your behavior as an individual, but then again, you need no licensing to be an individual.

Would the world be a better place if we all generally lived and let live?

Absolutely.

Then again, "our side" is not good at that either.

I do sometimes ponder that. Obama wasn't lying (for once) when he did the famous "you didn't build that" statement.
I built my business from scratch to the dizzying heights of 5 employees and steady, though rarely spectacularly profitable work coming in. Look at it - I am proud of it.
Then I look at the filing cabinets. There are 4 in the office. One holds 10 years worth of contracts, invoices, cheque stubs, letters from happy clients, two court cases from unhappy clients. The other three hold inspection reports, incident reports, mandatory paperwork, local council inspections, customs and excise investigations, 17 police reports, tax assessments, VAT paperwork, health and safety guidelines, food hygiene certificates (we don't even sell food), export licences, import licences, the list goes on and on.

I sort of wonder who's business it is.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 05:01:43 pm
To make a comparison between the civil rights of African-Americans and the 'rights' of homosexuals is, IMO, a hideous inequity.

There is no "civil right" that should force us to support what we know from Scripture is morally reprehensible.

There is NO parallel between the Civil Rights movement and the bullying of homosexual groups against Christians.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 05:03:51 pm
My oh my!  you debate just like a liberal.

But to answer your question in a word?  Yes!
is name calling your answer?? ,they didn't refuse to serve these two bleep ,they just said they would not bake them a  wedding cake ,why should people be forced to approve of the gay life style? could not these  two queers just said ok and just gone to another bakery? this is an attempt by liberals and the gay mafia to run Christians out of business..sure as hell don't see them targeting Hindus,Muslims or Jews with this demand to"act against your Christian beliefs and bake us a wedding cake ,take pictures at a fag wedding  ect BS
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 05:07:36 pm
To make a comparison between the civil rights of African-Americans and the 'rights' of homosexuals is, IMO, a hideous inequity.

There is no "civil right" that should force us to support what we know from Scripture is morally reprehensible.

There is NO parallel between the Civil Rights movement and the bullying of homosexual groups against Christians.
thank you ..the queers and their enablers are demanding we approve of their lifestyle ,BIG difference between  that and not serving somebody because their black or a jew
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 05:11:11 pm
I do sometimes ponder that. Obama wasn't lying (for once) when he did the famous "you didn't build that" statement.
I built my business from scratch to the dizzying heights of 5 employees and steady, though rarely spectacularly profitable work coming in. Look at it - I am proud of it.
Then I look at the filing cabinets. There are 4 in the office. One holds 10 years worth of contracts, invoices, cheque stubs, letters from happy clients, two court cases from unhappy clients. The other three hold inspection reports, incident reports, mandatory paperwork, local council inspections, customs and excise investigations, 17 police reports, tax assessments, VAT paperwork, health and safety guidelines, food hygiene certificates (we don't even sell food), export licences, import licences, the list goes on and on.

I sort of wonder who's business it is.

It's your business, but it is a business.

We are overtly regulated, but then again, having no regulations at all is perhaps just as bad as having too many regulations.

It's the Paradox of tolerance. It's Karl Popper's argument that a tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance, because tolerating intolerance will inevitably lead to the end of all tolerance.

As a society, we're constantly seeking to maintain that balance.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 05:22:44 pm
It's your business, but it is a business.

We are overtly regulated, but then again, having no regulations at all is perhaps just as bad as having too many regulations.

It's the Paradox of tolerance. It's Karl Popper's argument that a tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance, because tolerating intolerance will inevitably lead to the end of all tolerance.

As a society, we're constantly seeking to maintain that balance.
Good then the queers and  their supporters need to show tolerance as well ,go to another business and stop forcing approval of your perversion on the rest of us ..this is one of the main reasons I despise bleep
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 05:24:09 pm
is name calling your answer?? ,they didn't refuse to serve these two bleep ,they just said they would not bake them a  wedding cake ,why should people be forced to approve of the gay life style? could not these  two queers just said ok and just gone to another bakery? this is an attempt by liberals and the gay mafia to run Christians out of business..sure as hell don't see them targeting Hindus,Muslims or Jews with this demand to"act against your Christian beliefs and bake us a wedding cake ,take pictures at a fag wedding  ect BS

That's rich, Charlespq.....accusing me of name calling, when in virtually all your posts in this thread refer to homosexuals in degrading fashion as "bleep" and "queers".

Thanks for playing.   :whistle:

Oh.....and baking a wedding cake for a customer doesn't translate that one approves of the gay lifestyle.  But you know that already.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 05:26:43 pm
Good then the queers and  their supporters need to show tolerance as well ,go to another business and stop forcing approval of your perversion on the rest of us ..this is one of the main reasons I despise bleep

I no more "enable" anyone's homosexuality than I do your ignorance.

I prefer intelligent debate, so off to the ignore pile with you.

Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 05:30:36 pm
That's rich, Charlespq.....accusing me of name calling, when in virtually all your posts in this thread refer to homosexuals in degrading fashion as "bleep" and "queers".

Thanks for playing.   :whistle:

Oh.....and baking a wedding cake for a customer doesn't translate that one approves of the gay lifestyle.  But you know that already.

The pertinent issue here is Oregon State Law.

Quote
Oregon law bans discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in jobs and in places that serve the public, such as restaurants and bakeries.

The 2007 law provides an exemption for religious organizations and parochial schools but does not allow private business owners to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

If you don't like a law, you can either change it, or ignore it.

If you choose to go the route of civil disobedience, be ready to face the consequences of such actions.

P.S. It appears that according to Oregon law, churches can't be forced to perform same-sex weddings and parochial schools do not have to hire openly homosexual teachers. 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 05:33:12 pm
thank you ..the queers and their enablers are demanding we approve of their lifestyle ,BIG difference between  that and not serving somebody because their black or a jew

Calling the approval of homosexual lifestyles the same thing as allowing blacks to eat at lunch counters, go to the same bathrooms, drink from the same water fountains, and not get beaten or lynched is, as I said before, a false and hideous comparison.

It is relatively equal to calling the murder of the unborn a woman's "choice."

The left controls the language, and they control the thought of the masses.

They were able to persuade a large number of people to believe that murdering the unborn is good for women, and they are working on persuading the majority of Americans that denying Biblical faith is required by law.

It is most certainly not.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: jmyrlefuller on January 19, 2014, 06:05:26 pm
I think there is a fundamental error here, in treating it as a freedom of speech/freedom of religion case.

Both sides have equal freedom of speech and freedom of religion - so how do you balance it out? Here in the UK (and throughout Europe) we have two well tested rights in common law that the founders never bothered to list - most likely because they were so self evident they decided to save ink.

Freedom of association and freedom of movement.

In my business, I have the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any or no reason. They have the complimentary right to not pay me for my services if they find my policies offensive or me personally offensive.

It's a more sensible way, and keeps clutter out of the court system.
I almost mentioned the 13th Amendment (best known as the abolition of slavery amendment): the concept of involuntary servitude. That amendment bars people from being forced to serve someone else unless a crime has been committed and that servitude is punishment for the crime.

As no crime has been committed here, it would be hard to argue that Melissa must serve the same-sex couple.

Now... as for the argument that Oceander and Luis have brought up: that somehow, by acquiring a business license, the state has the authority to make you surrender your right to free exercise (or, in theory, any other right) in exchange for that license.

That's the concept of implied consent. It's best known for its role in driving privileges; the state makes you surrender certain aspects of your Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. If you plead the fifth when the police officer wants to alcohol test you, they can immediately take away your license, even if you are innocent. The difference, of course, is that the state owns the roads. Because it is their property, they have right to dictate what goes on on their land. The case for implied consent there is much stronger than the case of requiring one to surrender one's rights in exchange for a business license.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 19, 2014, 06:19:52 pm
Calling the approval of homosexual lifestyles the same thing as allowing blacks to eat at lunch counters, go to the same bathrooms, drink from the same water fountains, and not get beaten or lynched is, as I said before, a false and hideous comparison.

It is relatively equal to calling the murder of the unborn a woman's "choice."

The left controls the language, and they control the thought of the masses.

They were able to persuade a large number of people to believe that murdering the unborn is good for women, and they are working on persuading the majority of Americans that denying Biblical faith is required by law.

It is most certainly not.

I got to admit - I am strongly in favor of homosexuals not getting beaten or lynched as well. Maybe you don't have it there, but here there is a charming custom called gay bashing. It's sort of like the knock out game, but targeted at homosexuals, and outgrowth of the Paki bashing so beloved by the National Front.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 06:23:04 pm
As no crime has been committed here, it would be hard to argue that Melissa must serve the same-sex couple.

Oregon laws specifically ban businesses from refusing services due to sexual orientation.

It is a hard case to make that a law has not been broken when one fails to comply with a law.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 06:26:21 pm
I got to admit - I am strongly in favor of homosexuals not getting beaten or lynched as well. Maybe you don't have it there, but here there is a charming custom called gay bashing. It's sort of like the knock out game, but targeted at homosexuals, and outgrowth of the Paki bashing so beloved by the National Front.

NO one is arguing that homosexuals should be beaten or lynched, but that is NOT happening here.  There was universal discrimination against blacks, that not only included the two extremes that you quoted (and interestingly failed to mention the other things on the list), but universal inequality in the American South where blacks were separated and treated badly across the board.

There is absolutely NO PARALLEL in what is going on here with the homosexual activist/bullies.

What is happening here is that the bakery owners are being forced to approve of IMMORAL behavior and supporting what they find morally reprehensible.

There is no parallel with the American Civil Rights movement and blacks.

NONE.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 19, 2014, 06:36:39 pm
There is absolutely NO PARALLEL in what is going on here with the homosexual activist/bullies.

What is happening here is that the bakery owners are being forced to approve of IMMORAL behavior and supporting what they find morally reprehensible.

There is no parallel with the American Civil Rights movement and blacks.

NONE.

Oh, I am not disagreeing. There is no comparison at all. You can't tell someone is a homosexual by looking at them - they have to tell you. Being dark skinned (or a woman, to go back a century or so) on the other hand, is usually pretty obvious.

I am tempter to pull your leg slightly, but respect you far too much to do so.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 06:39:07 pm
I got to admit - I am strongly in favor of homosexuals not getting beaten or lynched as well. Maybe you don't have it there, but here there is a charming custom called gay bashing. It's sort of like the knock out game, but targeted at homosexuals, and outgrowth of the Paki bashing so beloved by the National Front.

We have individual rights. We also have licensed businesses that are governed by commerce laws.

The laws of the State of Oregon make it illegal for businesses to deny service or goods to customers based on a number of criteria, with sexual orientation being one of the criteria.

That law has been in effect since 2007, so businesses operating in 2013 are supposed to be aware of that law, and have the right to not be in business as a result of it.

That law does not force me to condone the activity or lifestyle as an individual, but my business does not enjoy First Amendment rights because business entities do not hold religious beliefs.

These laws may very well be impacted by whatever decision the SCOTUS arrives at in the Hobby Lobby and Little Sisters cases, but I don't know if those cases fully relate to this specific issue.

All these issues should be worked out in the laboratory of the States, as they were intended to be.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 06:45:13 pm
Oh, I am not disagreeing. There is no comparison at all. You can't tell someone is a homosexual by looking at them - they have to tell you. Being dark skinned (or a woman, to go back a century or so) on the other hand, is usually pretty obvious.

I am tempter to pull your leg slightly, but respect you far too much to do so.  :laugh:

The bigger difference is that being black or darker skinned has nothing to do with sin.

Homosexual behavior does, and homosexual "marriage" is SIN.

If the state forces a business person to condone (what Scripture clearly states is) sin, then it is a direct affront to religious freedom.

And even if you don't agree with the people who still hold to Biblical beliefs, the religious beliefs of Christians have got to be permitted.

There can be no law against them.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 06:50:14 pm
That's rich, Charlespq.....accusing me of name calling, when in virtually all your posts in this thread refer to homosexuals in degrading fashion as "bleep" and "bleep".

Thanks for playing.   :whistle:

Oh.....and baking a wedding cake for a customer doesn't translate that one approves of the gay lifestyle.  But you know that already.
if I 'm forced to bake wedding  cakes for people whose lifestyle I find offensive thats forced approval ..let the gays go to a bakery that caters to gays
..and again why are just Christian business being targeted ..because the gays  and liberals want to forced approval   Oh and I'd   be a lot less hateful of gays or queers if they would stop trying to force approval of their life style .. I'd don't care what they do behind closed doors but I support the right of folks to disapprove  and forcing businesses   to provide services to gay wedding is  against our  religious liberty...and my disapproval is philosophical as well as Christian
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 07:34:10 pm
The bigger difference is that being black or darker skinned has nothing to do with sin.

Homosexual behavior does, and homosexual "marriage" is SIN.

If the state forces a business person to condone (what Scripture clearly states is) sin, then it is a direct affront to religious freedom.

And even if you don't agree with the people who still hold to Biblical beliefs, the religious beliefs of Christians have got to be permitted.

There can be no law against them.
as I said I don't see non Christian businesses that refuse to  provide wedding services to gays being targeted ..let the free market do what it does and let those who want to cater gay weddings have their businesses and those who don't want to cater to gay weddings have theirs  :shrug:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Atomic Cow on January 19, 2014, 07:35:24 pm
as I said I don't see non Christian businesses that refuse to  provide wedding services to gays being targeted ..let the free market do what it does and let those who want to cater gay weddings have their businesses and those who don't want to cater to gay weddings have theirs  :shrug:

Won't happen.  This is about forced acceptance, by the barrel of the government gun if needed.

Sad that people who post on a conservative forum support violating people's 1st amendment rights.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 07:46:49 pm
Won't happen.  This is about forced acceptance, by the barrel of the government gun if needed.

Sad that people who post on a conservative forum support violating people's 1st amendment rights.
nothing  consecutive or libertarian about it  :shrug:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 08:20:53 pm
if I 'm forced to bake wedding  cakes for people whose lifestyle I find offensive thats forced approval ..let the gays go to a bakery that caters to gays
..and again why are just Christian business being targeted ..because the gays  and liberals want to forced approval   Oh and I'd   be a lot less hateful of gays or bleep if they would stop trying to force approval of their life style .. I'd don't care what they do behind closed doors but I support the right of folks to disapprove  and forcing businesses   to provide services to gay wedding is  against our  religious liberty...and my disapproval is philosophical as well as Christian

I fail to see where it says the bakery "was targeted", because they were Christian.

If more than one of my acquaintances told me that so and so was the best bakery, I'd go there....or I would simply inquire at my local deli. 

Now...if they happened to be owned by said defendants...it would depend on my nature to go after them legally if they refused to do business with me.

But...as anybody who has ever been on the wrong side of a Type-A  homosexual can attest....they don't let up.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 09:05:50 pm
as I said I don't see non Christian businesses that refuse to  provide wedding services to gays being targeted ..let the free market do what it does and let those who want to cater gay weddings have their businesses and those who don't want to cater to gay weddings have theirs  :shrug:

Free market........................ what a concept!

Too bad the thugs in charge of this country don't believe in it.     **nononono*
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 09:08:30 pm
I fail to see where it says the bakery "was targeted", because they were Christian.

If more than one of my acquaintances told me that so and so was the best bakery, I'd go there....or I would simply inquire at my local deli. 

Now...if they happened to be owned by said defendants...it would depend on my nature to go after them legally if they refused to do business with me.

But...as anybody who has ever been on the wrong side of a Type-A  homosexual can attest....they don't let up.   :laugh:

I must be on everyone's ignore list by now. No one is acknowledging the FACT that denying services or products to people based on their sexual orientation has been established law in Oregon for the past 6+ years.

Oregon is one of the ten most liberal States in the Union (http://www.businessinsider.com/most-liberal-states-2013-2), so why would anyone who lives there be surprised at this law?

What needs to happen in Oregon is a push back.

Find a gay-owned restaurant or banquet hall and demand that they host religious pro-life rallies.

Find a gay-owned caterer and demand that they cater a "Save Marriage" conference.

Have two conservative gay men demand that a Muslim baker cater their engagement party.

Take action.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 09:13:06 pm
Free market........................ what a concept!

Too bad the thugs in charge of this country don't believe in it.     **nononono*
No they don't .... :shrug:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Atomic Cow on January 19, 2014, 09:15:48 pm
Someone should go to a Muslim owned bakery and demand a cake for some Jewish holiday, or a black owned one and demand a KKK cake, or a Nazi cake from a Jewish owned bakery.  See how well that goes over.

Do the Christian haters support this as well, or should only those who believe in the Bible be forced to go against their beliefs?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 09:17:46 pm
BTW has any one named  and shamed the two gays who bought this lawsuit as well their ACLU lawyers  ,...I am in favor of using the lefts own tactics against them
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 09:18:53 pm
Someone should go to a Muslim owned bakery and demand a cake for some Jewish holiday, or a black owned one and demand a KKK cake, or a Nazi cake from a Jewish owned bakery.  See how well that goes over.

Do the Christian haters support this as well, or should only those who believe in the Bible be forced to go against their beliefs?

Now we're talking.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 09:22:05 pm
Someone should go to a Muslim owned bakery and demand a cake for some Jewish holiday, or a black owned one and demand a KKK cake, or a Nazi cake from a Jewish owned bakery.  See how well that goes over.

Do the Christian haters support this as well, or should only those who believe in the Bible be forced to go against their beliefs?

There is also the idea that the Oregon law should be challenged on constitutional grounds since it requires people to sin by proxy or forces them to be an accessory to something they consider to be a mortal sin.

Fighting back is always a better option than bitching and complaining.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 09:23:41 pm
Someone should go to a Muslim owned bakery and demand a cake for some Jewish holiday, or a black owned one and demand a KKK cake, or a Nazi cake from a Jewish owned bakery.  See how well that goes over.

Do the Christian haters support this as well, or should only those who believe in the Bible be forced to go against their beliefs?

The problem is that the seething hatred by the left of Christians not only causes their love of homosexual causes, but also causes them to embrace Islam.

They will never in a million years admit, nor condemn Muslims for their treatment of homosexuals.  Their target is Christianity.

Period.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 09:32:04 pm
There is also the idea that the Oregon law should be challenged on constitutional grounds since it requires people to sin by proxy or forces them to be an accessory to something they consider to be a mortal sin.

Fighting back is always a better option than bitching and complaining.
Finding out the names of those who bought the lawsuit and protesting at their homes and businesses and that of their supporters works for me as well...lets start playing hardball with these creeps...use their tactics against them ...
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 19, 2014, 09:36:19 pm
Finding out the names of those who bought the lawsuit and protesting at their homes and businesses and that of their supporters works for me as well...lets start playing hardball with these creeps...use their tactics against them ...

Rachel Cryer

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/16/sweet-cakes-by-melissa-bakery-anti-gay-discrimination_n_3767646.html
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 09:36:41 pm
Finding out the names of those who bought the lawsuit and protesting at their homes and businesses and that of their supporters works for me as well...lets start playing hardball with these creeps...use their tactics against them ...

So long as those protests don't resemble a Westboro Baptist fiasco, that's the sorts of thing that needs to be done.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 09:48:46 pm
Finding out the names of those who bought the lawsuit and protesting at their homes and businesses and that of their supporters works for me as well...lets start playing hardball with these creeps...use their tactics against them ...

If we used their tactics, we would heap bags of human feces on their lawns and threaten their children.

I recommend something  less ugly than the tactics they use against us.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 19, 2014, 09:52:27 pm
If we used their tactics, we would heap bags of human feces on their lawns and threaten their children.

I recommend something  less ugly than the tactics they use against us.

One only needs to look at what happened in California after Prop 8 passed.  The homosexual community there went after the donation list and took that list and went after residents in CA on the list - in many cases going to the location of their jobs and holding huge protests outside where they created such a dust up the person who had innocently donated money to help Prop 8 pass were fired from their jobs.....  they even tried spreading out into Utah to go after Mormons who had donated, however Utah is still a conservative-leaning state (though an exodus of Californian's into that state is changing the conservatism) and this fell flat in their state - it worked in California.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Cincinnatus on January 19, 2014, 10:05:46 pm
Oregon laws specifically ban businesses from refusing services due to sexual orientation.

This has been stated by the same poster in a variety of ways and is scary as hell. All he is saying is that might makes right and if 50%+1 members of a community decide the other 50%-1 shall not have the rights of conscience and may be punished for thinking or acting differently. In this are the seeds of totalitarianism.

I am also amazed at this kind of statement (also stated or implied several times): The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

That is not true. No such dichotomy between me and the fruits of my labor exist. They are inseparable and so long as I do not engage in fraud or activities physically harmful to others are subject to my values and beliefs, not that of the collective.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 10:09:14 pm
Oregon laws specifically ban businesses from refusing services due to sexual orientation.

This has been stated by the same poster in a variety of ways and is scary as hell. All he is saying is that might makes right and if 50%+1 members of a community decide the other 50%-1 shall not have the rights of conscience and may be punished for thinking or acting differently. In this are the seeds of totalitarianism.

I am also amazed at this kind of statement (also stated or implied several times): The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

That is not true. No such dichotomy between me and the fruits of my labor exist. They are inseparable and so long as I do not engage in fraud or activities physically harmful to others are subject to my values and beliefs, not that of the collective.

 goopo
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 19, 2014, 10:13:10 pm
One only needs to look at what happened in California after Prop 8 passed.  The homosexual community there went after the donation list and took that list and went after residents in CA on the list - in many cases going to the location of their jobs and holding huge protests outside where they created such a dust up the person who had innocently donated money to help Prop 8 pass were fired from their jobs.....  they even tried spreading out into Utah to go after Mormons who had donated, however Utah is still a conservative-leaning state (though an exodus of Californian's into that state is changing the conservatism) and this fell flat in their state - it worked in California.

In a way, we, as Christians, are punished more by our own goodness.

We will not behave in as filthy a manner as they will, and they know it, and take advantage of that fact.

The answer, is not for us to become despicable, but it's definitely for us to become more resolute in fighting their tyranny.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 10:13:29 pm
Oregon laws specifically ban businesses from refusing services due to sexual orientation.

This has been stated by the same poster in a variety of ways and is scary as hell. All he is saying is that might makes right and if 50%+1 members of a community decide the other 50%-1 shall not have the rights of conscience and may be punished for thinking or acting differently. In this are the seeds of totalitarianism.

I am also amazed at this kind of statement (also stated or implied several times): The difference (as I see it) is that we all individually have the right to discriminate on a personal level, but that does not necessarily allow for the right to discriminate in the field of commerce.

That is not true. No such dichotomy between me and the fruits of my labor exist. They are inseparable and so long as I do not engage in fraud or activities physically harmful to others are subject to my values and beliefs, not that of the collective.

As long as the law exists, which it does, you have two choices:

1. Abide by the law
2. Disregard the law

If you opt for #2, you better be ready to face the consequences of disregarding any law.

By the same token, you would argue that laws prohibiting same-sex marriages are the law and should stand and be adhered to because they were enacted by the will of that same 50% + 1 that you seem to have a certain amount of disdain for.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Cincinnatus on January 19, 2014, 10:38:15 pm
 :silly: ...because they were enacted by the will of that same 50% + 1 that you seem to have a certain amount of disdain for.

Let's be clear here. I have no disdain for the voting public, nor the democratic process. What I do have, however, is a deep abiding fear of your attitude toward the state as the final arbiter of how people can behave based on their own values and beliefs.

As to this: As long as the law exists, which it does, you have two choices:

1. Abide by the law
2. Disregard the law


Piffle. When the collective requires me or anyone else to act against our own consciences, no law exist. Brute force in varying degrees might exist, but not law.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 10:47:22 pm
The only way to change the law is to get that 50%+ 1.   And then change it.

BTW... State office-holding Republicans are extinct in Maryland.   Not endangered.  Extinct.

Add that it is strong, major sanctuary State for illegals, and it's going to take a revolution to change things.

And at the rate we're headed, there's a better chance that we're all going to be rounded up someday, than Republicans...or any opposition party can grab and hold on to power.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on January 19, 2014, 10:50:05 pm
The only way to change the law is to get that 50%+ 1.   And then change it.

BTW... State office-holding Republicans are extinct in Maryland.   Not endangered.  Extinct.


Not on the Eastern Shore.  Its still pretty sane on this side of the Chesapeake.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 10:57:08 pm
Not on the Eastern Shore.  Its still pretty sane on this side of the Chesapeake.

Yes, you're right.  God bless them.  They hold office in Washington County and Cumberland in western MD.

But definitely not in Annapolis.  Or in Montgomery County.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 19, 2014, 11:21:39 pm
So long as those protests don't resemble a Westboro Baptist fiasco, that's the sorts of thing that needs to be done.
agreed don't want that  but I still think we should play hardball...from the link Rapunzel  posted
Quote
one reporter attempted to prank the bakery and determine if their religiously-grounded philosophy influenced the decision to fulfill other business transactions
ok hand out/ put out  flyer's with  the reporters picture and info denouncing them as a anti Christian bigot.organize a boycott of the newspapers advertisers ..if its a radio or tv station flood the the FCC with complaints picket the newspaper or the reporters house at 6:30 in the morning
Quote
The homosexual community there went after the donation list and took that list and went after residents in CA on the list -

find out who these gays are and mount a class action lawsuit..name and shame them and put them a national blacklist protest outside their place of employment ..hand out flyer's   detailing their hatred of Christians   ..thats not illegal if done by private citizens ..If just 20 percent of the US population told the employers of those people that they will not  do business with companies that employ anti Christian bigots it would get noticed

heck besides voting out the liberal garbage .go find some uptight gay/liberal company and demand that they provide services to something like a pro life rally or something with  a anti gay speaker then sue them if the refuse..start a boycott of the people who support the ACLU..and if you can get away with something like dumping 5 tons of horse poop on Mr ACLU lawyers lawn ..well who cares if its petty and vindictive ...with out committing any major felonies let the liberals and gay mafia feel the publics displeasure ....alinsky  tactics the whole enchilada...push back dammed right




Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 19, 2014, 11:27:17 pm
To suggest such demonstrations, while necessary...the climate is fast-becoming dangerous for Christians to protest in large groups.

And not necessarily from the authorities.

Children are being taught that right wing Christians are fascists.  It's getting very dangerous out there.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 19, 2014, 11:56:13 pm
:silly: ...because they were enacted by the will of that same 50% + 1 that you seem to have a certain amount of disdain for.

Let's be clear here. I have no disdain for the voting public, nor the democratic process. What I do have, however, is a deep abiding fear of your attitude toward the state as the final arbiter of how people can behave based on their own values and beliefs.

As to this: As long as the law exists, which it does, you have two choices:

1. Abide by the law
2. Disregard the law


Piffle. When the collective requires me or anyone else to act against our own consciences, no law exist. Brute force in varying degrees might exist, but not law.

My attitude?

I believe in the process set in place by the Founders. People vote and elect their State government and those elected officials enact laws in accordance to the boundaries set in place by their State's Constitution and within the limits of the Federal Constitution. 

That is what happened in Oregon, and the cold listing of facts has very little to so with any attitude in my part.

The fact that the people of Oregon have decided to elect a very liberal legislature is as much their right as it is the right of the people of Mississippi to elect a very conservative one. 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Atomic Cow on January 19, 2014, 11:58:08 pm
Children are being taught that right wing Christians are fascists.  It's getting very dangerous out there.

Kristallnacht is coming, only a question of when.

This time though the Jews will not be the target.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 12:04:01 am
To suggest such demonstrations, while necessary...the climate is fast-becoming dangerous for Christians to protest in large groups.

And not necessarily from the authorities.

Children are being taught that right wing Christians are fascists.  It's getting very dangerous out there.

Do you think there will be lions?

It's difficult to imagine the possible discomfort one may experience standing up for one's beliefs against the danger of hungry lions.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 12:05:58 am
agreed don't want that  but I still think we should play hardball...from the link Rapunzel  postedok hand out/ put out  flyer's with  the reporters picture and info denouncing them as a anti Christian bigot.organize a boycott of the newspapers advertisers ..if its a radio or tv station flood the the FCC with complaints picket the newspaper or the reporters house at 6:30 in the morning
find out who these gays are and mount a class action lawsuit..name and shame them and put them a national blacklist protest outside their place of employment ..hand out flyer's   detailing their hatred of Christians   ..thats not illegal if done by private citizens ..If just 20 percent of the US population told the employers of those people that they will not  do business with companies that employ anti Christian bigots it would get noticed

heck besides voting out the liberal garbage .go find some uptight gay/liberal company and demand that they provide services to something like a pro life rally or something with  a anti gay speaker then sue them if the refuse..start a boycott of the people who support the ACLU..and if you can get away with something like dumping 5 tons of horse poop on Mr ACLU lawyers lawn ..well who cares if its petty and vindictive ...with out committing any major felonies let the liberals and gay mafia feel the publics displeasure ....alinsky  tactics the whole enchilada...push back dammed right

The remedy for hate speech is more speech.

The remedy for actions such as these is like actions going the other way.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 20, 2014, 12:06:14 am
Kristallnacht is coming, only a question of when.

This time though the Jews will not be the target.
let them  saved a lot of 12 ga buck n ball for that sort of nonsense :whistle:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 20, 2014, 12:07:29 am
The remedy for hate speech is more speech.

The remedy for actions such as these is like actions going the other way.
like thats not happing now?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 20, 2014, 12:29:30 am
Do you think there will be lions?

It's difficult to imagine the possible discomfort one may experience standing up for one's beliefs against the danger of hungry lions.

No...what I'm saying is Holder's Justice Department will cherry pick what they're going to prosecute, and a lot of right-wingers are going to be subject to possible violence and injury.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 12:30:48 am
No...what I'm saying is Holder's Justice Department will cherry pick what they're going to prosecute, and a lot of right-wingers are going to be subject to possible violence and injury.

Yes.

That's possible.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 20, 2014, 12:36:06 am
No...what I'm saying is Holder's Justice Department will cherry pick what they're going to prosecute, and a lot of right-wingers are going to be subject to possible violence and injury.
yeah I can see that
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 20, 2014, 01:07:37 am
you may be required to get a license to open a business, you do not surrender your Constitutional rights when you open a business.  They are bestowed by the Creator, not the state.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 20, 2014, 01:09:44 am
I must be on everyone's ignore list by now. No one is acknowledging the FACT that denying services or products to people based on their sexual orientation has been established law in Oregon for the past 6+ years.

Oregon is one of the ten most liberal States in the Union (http://www.businessinsider.com/most-liberal-states-2013-2), so why would anyone who lives there be surprised at this law?

What needs to happen in Oregon is a push back.

Find a gay-owned restaurant or banquet hall and demand that they host religious pro-life rallies.

Find a gay-owned caterer and demand that they cater a "Save Marriage" conference.

Have two conservative gay men demand that a Muslim baker cater their engagement party.

Take action.

You're not on my ignore.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 20, 2014, 01:21:13 am
It would be their loss, my friend!   :beer:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 01:23:34 am
you may be required to get a license to open a business, you do not surrender your Constitutional rights when you open a business.  They are bestowed by the Creator, not the state.

Then you can disobey the law and take your chances in Court. Oregon law has decreed that businesses may not deny services or goods to people based on their sexual orientation.

I believe  that Sweet Cakes by Melissa is now closed.   
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: musiclady on January 20, 2014, 02:12:03 am
You're not on my ignore.

Nor mine.

I don't put people on ignore  (well, I ended up putting that little lib guy on ignore, but he's gone).

Perhaps Luis just has an exaggerated view of his own impact on other people's lives.     :smokin:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 20, 2014, 10:58:31 am
Then you can disobey the law and take your chances in Court. Oregon law has decreed that businesses may not deny services or goods to people based on their sexual orientation.

I believe  that Sweet Cakes by Melissa is now closed.

There is a reason why homosexuals use non-homosexual businesses.  They suck, as in they don't make very good food.  It's hip to say "we support homosexual businesses" until they taste the food.  Watch Top Chef, Hell's Kitchen, Chopped, whatever, they don't do well because people are afraid to criticize them, they just stop going.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 20, 2014, 11:38:54 am
There is a reason why homosexuals use non-homosexual businesses.  They suck, as in they don't make very good food.  It's hip to say "we support homosexual businesses" until they taste the food.  Watch Top Chef, Hell's Kitchen, Chopped, whatever, they don't do well because people are afraid to criticize them, they just stop going.

I have two touchstones for a valid law. Is it just and will it be obeyed. That is it.

A law which will not be obeyed (in the main) weakens all other laws. To drag a wild example out - jay-walking. Against the law in a lot of places, and totally stupid. If you want to cross the street, just do it. Everyone does. Yet you can be busted for it, if the cop that sees you is sufficiently bored.

On the just side - is it a fair law? The Texas version of "Thou shall not kill" : "You kill, we'll kill you" seems appropriate here. A simple, law, fair and understandable. :laugh:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 01:48:45 pm
There is a reason why homosexuals use non-homosexual businesses.  They suck, as in they don't make very good food.

Now you're in my wheelhouse.

A good portion of the chefs, bakers, and just cooks that I deal with daily are gay. To say that there is a correlation between homosexuality and culinary ability is simply wrong.

There are as many great gay chefs, bakers and cooks as there are great straight ones. The reverse holds true.

The reason homosexuals use non-homosexual businesses, at least probably in this case, is to drive the point that these homosexuals drove home.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on January 20, 2014, 02:15:18 pm
I have two touchstones for a valid law. Is it just and will it be obeyed. That is it.

A law which will not be obeyed (in the main) weakens all other laws. To drag a wild example out - jay-walking. Against the law in a lot of places, and totally stupid. If you want to cross the street, just do it. Everyone does. Yet you can be busted for it, if the cop that sees you is sufficiently bored.

On the just side - is it a fair law? The Texas version of "Thou shall not kill" : "You kill, we'll kill you" seems appropriate here. A simple, law, fair and understandable. :laugh:

MLK Jr.

Quote
"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... One who breaks an unjust law must do it openly, lovingly...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."

As I said, you have the choice of abiding by the law or not. However, if you decide not to, then you also accept the consequences of your actions in the hope that you arouse the community's conscience.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on January 20, 2014, 02:53:31 pm
Yes, you're right.  God bless them.  They hold office in Washington County and Cumberland in western MD.

But definitely not in Annapolis.  Or in Montgomery County.

Boy, you're not kidding.  I LOVE the Trader Joe's in Annapolis (much nicer than the Wilmington DE one) but I always feel so out of place there for that reason.  Just walking thru the parking lot to get into the place and looking at the bumper stickers, I feel like I'm in Berkeley CA.

Sometimes I deal with injured Montgomery county people -jobwise.  They are the most entitled and lawyered-up bunch I've ever worked with. 
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 20, 2014, 03:22:43 pm
Boy, you're not kidding.  I LOVE the Trader Joe's in Annapolis (much nicer than the Wilmington DE one) but I always feel so out of place there for that reason.  Just walking thru the parking lot to get into the place and looking at the bumper stickers, I feel like I'm in Berkeley CA.

Sometimes I deal with injured Montgomery county people -jobwise.  They are the most entitled and lawyered-up bunch I've ever worked with.

Try the Trader Joe's barbecued pork, wrapped on the styrofoam.  Probably the best I've tasted if you're not doing it yourself.  Perfect mix of vinegar, not sloppy.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 20, 2014, 03:37:22 pm
There is a reason why homosexuals use non-homosexual businesses.  They suck, as in they don't make very good food.  It's hip to say "we support homosexual businesses" until they taste the food.  Watch Top Chef, Hell's Kitchen, Chopped, whatever, they don't do well because people are afraid to criticize them, they just stop going.

Aw geez.......


Hmmmmmmmm.......what would Princess Leila say.   :pondering:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 20, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
Sweet Cakes by Melissa is simply the tip of a bad iceberg.  The Gorebal warming crowd are now proclaiming those of us who deny this is real should be tracked down, lose their jobs and their homes burned to the ground.  How do they differ from the people who ran Sweet Cakes out of business... I maintain they do not differ at all and silence in the face of this is a danger to us all.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 20, 2014, 10:28:49 pm
For Shame, Rap!  **nononono* **nononono* **nononono* **nononono*

We can't burn down their houses. Think of the CO2 pollution.

Driving a tank through the house is much more eco-friendly.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: DCPatriot on January 20, 2014, 10:32:39 pm
For Shame, Rap!  **nononono* **nononono* **nononono* **nononono*

We can't burn down their houses. Think of the CO2 pollution.

Driving a tank through the house is much more eco-friendly.  :laugh:

That's what the Israelis do when they punish Arab terrorist wannabes.  They bulldoze an entire block for the sins of a bored A-hole.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 20, 2014, 10:41:30 pm
So they should.

Let's face it - they conquered the disputed territories (West bank) fair and square. Why should they give them up?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on January 20, 2014, 11:47:45 pm
Try the Trader Joe's barbecued pork, wrapped on the styrofoam.  Probably the best I've tasted if you're not doing it yourself.  Perfect mix of vinegar, not sloppy.

Thanks, I will.  Now getting off here before I get dinged for thread-jacking.  :bolt:
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: kevindavis007 on January 21, 2014, 12:11:57 am
so a muslin bakery should be forced to bake a wedding cake for bleep then?

They will never go after a muslim..
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Charlespg on January 21, 2014, 12:32:48 am
They will never go after a muslim..
all the business so far have been Christian
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 21, 2014, 01:02:41 am
They will never go after a muslim..

There was one.  That bakery in Oakland, I think it was?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 21, 2014, 01:17:12 am
There was one.  That bakery in Oakland, I think it was?

They were bad, bad people......

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Your-Black-Muslim-Bakery-leader-guilty-of-murder-2368883.php

Your Black Muslim Bakery leader guilty of murder
Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writer
Published 4:00 am, Thursday, June 9, 2011

The former leader of Your Black Muslim Bakery was convicted Thursday of three counts of first-degree murder for ordering the 2007 slayings of Oakland newspaper editor Chauncey Bailey and two other men, capping a trial that was watched closely by journalists and First Amendment advocates.

An Alameda County Superior Court jury convicted Yusuf Bey IV, 25, after deliberating in Oakland since May 23.

A second defendant, former bakery associate Antoine Mackey, 25, was convicted of two counts of first-degree murder for the killings of Bailey and Michael Wills, 36. The jury split on a third count involving the slaying of Odell Roberson Jr., 31, and Judge Thomas Reardon declared a mistrial on that charge.

 Both Bey and Mackey face life terms in prison without the possibility of parole when they are sentenced July 8 because they were convicted of the special circumstance of multiple murder. Neither showed any reaction when the verdicts were read.

Relatives of Bailey, however, bowed their heads and hugged each other when they learned that Bey had been convicted of murdering the journalist by ordering bakery handyman Devaughndre Broussard to pull the trigger.

Broussard reached a plea bargain with prosecutors and testified against Bey, saying the leader of the black empowerment group wanted Bailey dead because the Oakland Post editor was working on unflattering stories about the bakery.
'A long journey'

Wendy Ashley-Johnson, a cousin of Bailey's, said, "It's been a long journey, but justice has finally been done, and it's over. The family's just so thankful - thankful to God, thankful to the jury, thankful to the D.A."

She added, "Journalists have a job to do, and they should not be squashed in what they do."

District Attorney Nancy O'Malley said the verdicts "have brought to an end the unbelievable violence, the aggressive behavior and the terror that Yusuf Bey, Antoine Mackey and Devaughndre Broussard have inflicted on the community of Oakland. What may have been once a productive organization in Oakland became nothing more than a criminal street gang engaging in senseless violence and unyielding terror."

Trial prosecutor Melissa Krum agreed, saying, "They're nothing but a group of thugs."

She said the verdicts send the message that "the First Amendment is not going to be murdered by murdering journalists. You cannot kill the man and expect the message to be killed."
Bey's mother weeps

Bey's mother, Daulet Bey, wept in court before hearing the jury's decision and expressed frustration when she ended up missing the verdicts. "I believe in my son's innocence, I do," she said.

Bey's attorney, Gene Peretti, said, "Devastating verdict, and we're very disappointed." He said his client is "a little bit stunned."

Peretti and Mackey's attorney, Gary Sirbu, both said they would appeal.

"He's taking it well," Sirbu said of Mackey. "I think he's a courageous young guy. Personally, he's extremely likable. It's been my pleasure to work with him. He's been respectful of the criminal justice system at all times, and now his attention goes to the appeal process."

Jurors declined to comment as they left the courthouse.

Prosecutors said they would decide whether to retry Mackey for the killing of Roberson.
Picture of vengeance

Krum had portrayed Bey as a charismatic but unhinged leader of a financially ailing organization. She told jurors he would stop at nothing to terrorize those he believed had wronged him or the bakery founded in the late 1960s by his father, Yusuf Bey Sr., to give African Americans who worked there responsibility and authority and to provide healthful food to the community.

Prosecutors said Bey IV had targeted Bailey because the editor was working on stories about the now-defunct bakery's financial problems and internal turmoil. Bailey was shot dead as he walked to work in downtown Oakland on Aug. 2, 2007.

In a statement, Reporters Without Borders, a media organization, said it hopes that "lessons will be drawn from this case and that journalists will be able to perform their job as they have a right to."

The other killings were less political in nature. Roberson was the uncle of a man who had killed Bey's brother in a botched 2005 carjacking in North Oakland, and Wills was slain simply because he was white, the prosecution said.
Shells matched

Spent shotgun shells found at the scene of Bailey's slaying matched one found in Bey's bedroom and seven located on the roof of the Oakland bakery when it was raided a day after the journalist was killed, according to testimony at the trial.

Defense attorneys had focused their efforts on discrediting Broussard, a former bakery handyman who pleaded guilty in 2009 to two counts of voluntary manslaughter for killing Roberson near the San Pablo Avenue bakery in July 2007 and Bailey the following month near 14th and Alice streets in downtown Oakland.

Defense attorneys sought to portray Broussard to jurors as a lying, "stone-cold murderer" whose testimony could not be trusted.

Broussard, 23, was the prosecution's star witness. In exchange for testifying, he will be sentenced to 25 years in prison.

Broussard testified that he had killed Bailey with three shotgun blasts after he and Mackey staked out the journalist's home. He eventually told investigators that Bey had ordered the murder and had demanded that Broussard be a "good soldier" and take sole responsibility.
Bakery's crimes

Prosecutors say Broussard used the SKS assault rifle to kill Roberson on July 7, 2007, and that Mackey used it five days later to kill Wills.

Jurors heard testimony about a litany of crimes involving bakery members, They included shootings, the kidnapping of two women and the torture of one of them, the vandalism of two liquor stores to curb alcohol sales, and a sexual-assault case against Bey Sr., the bakery's late founder, that Bailey had covered.

Broussard said Bey was angry at Bailey for having somehow contributed to his father's 2003 death from cancer. But foremost on Bey's mind, Broussard testified, was the research that Bailey was doing on the financial collapse of the bakery, which had been racked by turmoil since the elder Bey's death.

Bey IV did not testify. Mackey took the stand near the end of the trial and denied any involvement in the killings.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 21, 2014, 02:53:46 am
http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/20/in-oregon-and-20-other-states-its-illegal-not-to-bake-a-wedding-cake-if-you-dont-want-to/

In Oregon, and 20 other states, it’s illegal not to bake a wedding cake if you don’t want to

Posted By Jim Treacher On 3:06 PM 01/20/2014

You may have heard about this story last year. A bakery in Gresham, Oregon called Sweet Cakes by Melissa refused to make a wedding cake because it was for a lesbian wedding. The lesbian couple, rather than find some other bakery that wanted their business, filed a complaint under the Oregon Equality Act of 2007, and the state found in their favor.

In other words, businesses in Oregon are not just encouraged, but obligated by law to do whatever gay people want them to do.

Courtesy of The Blaze, here are proprietors Aaron and Melissa Klein reacting to the decision:

video at link

Or, y’know, gay couples could just find another bakery that wants their money. But then, they wouldn’t be able to ruin other people’s businesses for daring to disagree with them. What would be the point of that?
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 21, 2014, 10:22:44 am
start baking "underground" and "f" the queers!
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 21, 2014, 08:11:39 pm
A Arizona state senator introduced a bill yesterday to make it legal in AZ to deny service to anyone asking you to provide a service which goes against your religious views.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 21, 2014, 08:16:59 pm
A Arizona state senator introduced a bill yesterday to make it legal in AZ to deny service to anyone asking you to provide a service which goes against your religious views.

That's not a great idea either when you've been drinking and all the cab drivers are friends of mo.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 21, 2014, 08:43:43 pm
That's not a great idea either when you've been drinking and all the cab drivers are friends of mo.

Goes both ways.

Though I have to say, Muslims know how to party and are not shy of taking a drink or six.

I would like to see one addendum to that bill though - declare service dogs to have human rights.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: Rapunzel on January 21, 2014, 08:46:31 pm
Goes both ways.

Though I have to say, Muslims know how to party and are not shy of taking a drink or six.

I would like to see one addendum to that bill though - declare service dogs to have human rights.

A couple of things:  1) not a lot of cabs in AZ - people use cars here... and 2) we like dogs down here.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: olde north church on January 22, 2014, 08:04:35 pm
Sorry, you can't sign your rights away.
Title: Re: Sweet Cakes by Melissa violated same-sex couple's civil rights when it refused to make wedding cake, state finds
Post by: EC on January 22, 2014, 08:12:47 pm
Sorry, you can't sign your rights away.

North - you are married. The instant you say your vows and sign on the line, you lost your right to ever be correct again  :tongue2: