The Briefing Room
Briefing Room Polls (Guests Welcome!) => The Briefingroom Polls => Topic started by: corbe on April 02, 2019, 02:19:00 pm
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One viewpoint:
April 2nd, 2019
I Must Dissent
by Erick Erickson
In 2017, speaking to a group of leaders from Central America, Vice President Pence declared, “To further stem the flow of illegal immigration and illegal drugs into the United States, President Trump knows, as do all of you, that we must confront these problems at their source. We must meet them – and we must solve them – in Central and South America.†What Vice President Pence said then was correct. What President Trump is doing now — cutting aid — is wrong. I must respectfully dissent.
Fifteen years ago, Colombia was on the verge of collapse. The nation was overrun with drug traffickers, cartels, and local gangs. Crime and violence were rampant, people were fleeing the nation, and the government of Colombia teetered on the edge. The United States deployed its foreign aid budget and military resources to help the Colombian government stabilize, fight its domestic drug war, and beat the cartels. The nation went from the brink to being a stable leader in South America and a strategic ally of the United States. In the past decade, trade with Colombia has tripled to $14 billion, benefiting American businesses.
Since 2016, American assistance to Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador has declined 20% and, concurrent with that decline in American assistance, those countries have seen an increase in domestic crime, corruption, and flight of refugees headed towards the United States.
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https://theresurgent.com/2019/04/02/i-must-dissent/ (https://theresurgent.com/2019/04/02/i-must-dissent/)
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Erick dissents on pretty much everything lately.
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It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ending assistance to these countries will just fuel the chaos, and the exodus.
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It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ending assistance to these countries will just fuel the chaos, and the exodus.
How so, @Jazzhead?
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With the problems we have domestically, I think it is time we end foreign aid as we know it.
Starting with Europe, I think we need to flip the ratio, with Europe paying 70-75% of NATO. I think Japan, Korea and every other nation the USA is defending should be paying cost plus for the expense of our defense forces in their country.
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With the problems we have domestically, I think it is time we end foreign aid as we know it.
But some foreign aid directly helps our interests. Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.
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But some foreign aid directly helps our interests. Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.
I don't think you understand the numbers. The numbers of central Americans who are now here. I can understand that you are trying to minimize the problem, but in the interest of accuracy and honesty, we shouldn't.
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I don't think you understand the numbers. The numbers of central Americans who are now here. I can understand that you are trying to minimize the problem, but in the interest of accuracy and honesty, we shouldn't.
Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem? I'm one of the few here who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum. I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.
These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries. Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se, but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons. To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness, it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.
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Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem? These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries. Not lack of opportunity per se, but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons. To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness, it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.
Why am I saying that you are minimizing the problem that you are minimizing? :shrug:
Who the hell created the anarchy that they are fleeing? How will fleeing what they have created solve the problems?
They are coming here rather than cleaning their own home. And, you don't know if they are "good people" or not. You just assume.
Even if they are that totally misses the point.
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Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem? I'm one of the few here who has been careful to differentiate between the issues of "illegal immigration" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants. I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.
These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries. Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se, but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons. To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness, it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.
Thats the media narrative and its a load of crap. Gangs have been in central America for decades, and if they've gotten stronger its by the drug trade which has been enhanced by our lax border.
Whats happening now is a coordinated effort to overwhelm our system. These people are being coached to take advantage of the asylum laws and their journey is funded. There's no way so many could make the trip so fast without major logistical support.
Good grief even Jake Tapper knows this now.
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Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem? I'm one of the few here who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum. I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.
These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries. Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se, but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons. To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness, it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.
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The Fertile Crescent was a catalyst for the development of the nation/state which emerged
in ancient Egypt, then Greece and Rome, allowing these cultures/societies to abandon tribalism.
South America remains trapped in tribalism; its Aztec, Inca and Toltec legacy which it won't abandon.
Their chaos and corruption is of their own making and we owe them nothing!!!
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These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries.
That has been true, for most of the world, for most of time.
The US does NOT have a moral responsibility to solve an age old problem.
We SHOULD ONLY give aid, on a quid pro quo basis; We help you to help your country, provided you keep your people there to reap the benefits.
BUT if you fail to keep your people there, you lose aid. Simple and fair.
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Why are you saying that I am trying to minimize the problem? I'm one of the few here who has been careful to differentiate between "illegal immigrants" and the unique situation of these Central American migrants seeking asylum. I am one of the few here who's been saying the two problems are different, and demand different solutions.
These folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in their countries. Not lack of jobs or opportunity per se, but gang violence that causes mothers to fear for their sons. To the extent we can assist these countries to resist corruption and address rampant lawlessness, it will help stem the exodus of good people convinced they'd rather risk an uncertain future in a migrant detention center than become the certain victims of anarchy.
@Jazzhead look at the flip side. We keep pumping money into countries that only seems to grow their drug trafficking and gang violence, many of those come here to make more money by drug trafficing and gang violence. So, not all those who come here are doing so because of intolerable conditions.
Secondly, just because you throw money at a situation doesn't mean its going to get better. Sometimes it makes the situation worse. Throwing money at these countries makes them dependent on us and gives them little incentive to improve themselves. I can give you an example right here in the U.S.; Detroit. Having lived in the Detroit area for years, major revitalization were done to the downtown area numerous times and the people of Detroit destroyed what they were given instead of taking care of it and maintaining their city on their own. There was no incentive as the people of Detroit didn't have to work for the restoration and in addition they expected a check to go along with it to feed, clothe and house them. Illegals coming in are little different. They've been told that they will get a free ride, all they have to do is come here. What incentive then is it for them to take the money that is being poured into their country and build a better life? None. What incentive is there for their government to improve their country and the lives for their citizens? None, because the money keeps coming in regardless of what they do.
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The Fertile Crescent was a catalyst for the development of the nation/state which emerged
in ancient Egypt, then Greece and Rome, allowing these cultures/societies to abandon tribalism.
South America remains trapped in tribalism; its Aztec, Inca and Toltec legacy which it won't abandon.
Their chaos and corruption is of their own making and we owe them nothing!!!
I think you make a good point about the tribalism. In the Mexican State south of me, Sonora, Mayans are the tribe. In addition to this issue, Latin America is also plagued by a history of Spanish/Portuguese conquest, as opposed to colonization. Northern Europeans came for land, the Conquistadors came to loot the countryside.
And, yeah, we owe them nothing. Same with others holding a hand out.
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That has been true, for most of the world, for most of time.
The US does NOT have a moral responsibility to solve an age old problem.
We SHOULD ONLY give aid, on a quid pro quo basis; We help you to help your country, provided you keep your people there to reap the benefits.
BUT if you fail to keep your people there, you lose aid. Simple and fair.
The people in those places don't reap any benefit, because their rulers are totally corrupt and keep all the aid for themselves. Bottom line, they lose the aid, and that is simple and fair.
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@Jazzhead look at the flip side. We keep pumping money into countries that only seems to grow their drug trafficking and gang violence, many of those come here to make more money by drug trafficing and gang violence. So, not all those who come here are doing so because of intolerable conditions.
I am not suggesting that asylum seekers not be vetted. Those who come here to commit crimes deserve no sanctuary. They should be deported, pronto.
But we need to recognize that the recent asylum seekers have in large part consisted of families fleeing gang violence. That's a fundamentally different problem than Mexicans coming here to harvest crops and do other blue collar work. As I've pointed out before, those sorts of illegals are a symptom of a booming economy - many had returned home under Obama's shit economy. When there is demand for labor, the labor supply rationally reacts.
But asylum seekers aren't coming here because we demand their labor. They are fleeing intolerable conditions, especially for their kids. In that context, it is rational to ask whether the crisis can most efficiently addressed by getting to the root of the problem, by offering assistance to address the conditions that cause so many to flee. (And that includes addressing Americans' demand for the illegal drugs that are the lifeblood of the gangs.)
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I am not suggesting that asylum seekers not be vetted. Those who come here to commit crimes deserve no sanctuary. They should be deported, pronto.
But we need to recognize that the recent asylum seekers have in large part consisted of families fleeing gang violence. That's a fundamentally different problem than Mexicans coming here to harvest crops and do other blue collar work. As I've pointed out before, those sorts of illegals are a symptom of a booming economy - many had returned home under Obama's shit economy. When there is demand for labor, the labor supply rationally reacts.
But asylum seekers aren't coming here because we demand their labor. They are fleeing intolerable conditions, especially for their kids. In that context, it is rational to ask whether the crisis can most efficiently addressed by getting to the root of the problem, by offering assistance to address the conditions that cause so many to flee. (And that includes addressing Americans' demand for the illegal drugs that are the lifeblood of the gangs.)
First of all, there are so many coming through right now, that they are NOT being vetted, in fact, they are being let in on our side by border patrol! Border patrol has it's own problems with corruption and Trump has few options left.
Not ALL and I would lay odds that MOST that are coming through right now are NOT seeking asylum because of intolerable conditions; that are leaving because they know that they will be given a free ride and won't have to work. All they have to do is come here. That also leaves the door open for all their relatives. It is a problem that Trump has allowed to snowball out of control. Again, he has few options and cutting off aid is one of them. Whether or not that will deliver any kind of success is yet to be seen.
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But some foreign aid directly helps our interests. Every Central American that stays home is one less migrant at our border.
Great. We feed their corrupt armies and political cronies, while the food for the masses gets burned at the border. Foreign aid has kept more tinpot dictators in power than anything else. Same thing happens in Africa.
In the meantime, we have the fattest poor people on the planet.
The more you subsidize something, the fatter it gets. And we tax productive Americans to do this.
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@Jazzhead, that was a very selective answering of questions. Not going to answer the tougher ones?
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Great. We feed their corrupt armies and political cronies, while the food for the masses gets burned at the border.
What are you talking about? You seem to be describing Venezuela, not the Central American nations that have had trouble maintaining law and order where most of the asylum seekers are (at least right now) coming from.
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@Jazzhead, that was a very selective answering of questions. Not going to answer the tougher ones?
The situation in Honduras is not comparable to the situation in Detroit. Are you suggesting that our policy approach to Honduras and Detroit be the same?
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The situation in Honduras is not comparable to the situation in Detroit. Are you suggesting that our policy approach to Honduras and Detroit be the same?
That's disappointing. Not even a good deflection.
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That's disappointing. Not even a good deflection.
Sorry, Sanguine. Gotta lot of work to do this morning.
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Sorry, Sanguine. Gotta lot of work to do this morning.
So, your comments are just thoughtless bits of rhetoric?
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So, your comments are just thoughtless bits of rhetoric?
Yep, that's it. *****rollingeyes*****
Just like Trump's own thoughtlessness in cutting off his nose to spite his face.
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Yep, that's it. *****rollingeyes*****
Just like Trump's own thoughtlessness in cutting off his nose to spite his face.
*****rollingeyes*****
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*****rollingeyes*****
NOW we're engaged in thoughtful dialogue!
Look, you know my position - cutting off aid to these countries will do nothing to address the conditions that force whole families to escape intolerable violence. It is a play to Trump's white nativist base, notwithstanding that it will only spur more asylum seekers toward the border.
So explain to me why cutting off aid to the Honduran government and police will decrease the flow of asylum seekers. If there's logic to your position, kindly explain it.
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NOW we're engaged in thoughtful dialogue!
Look, you know my position - cutting off aid to these countries will do nothing to address the conditions that force whole families to escape intolerable violence. It is a play to Trump's white nativist base, notwithstanding that it will only spur more asylum seekers toward the border.
So explain to me why cutting off aid to the Honduran government and police will decrease the flow of asylum seekers. If there's logic to your position, kindly explain it.
Ah, now you're starting to think. The reason cutting off aid to the Honduran government* will decrease the flow of illegal aliens is because those in the government using those funds want them to continue. Even if that means they have to share a little bit, and do more to keep Hondurans in Honduras.
*And, it looks like you may recognize that $ sent to the Honduran government are used for exactly - those in the government. Not the people of Honduras.
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Ah, now you're starting to think. The reason cutting off aid to the Honduran government* will decrease the flow of illegal aliens is because those in the government using those funds want them to continue. Even if that means they have to share a little bit, and do more to keep Hondurans in Honduras.
*And, it looks like you may recognize that $ sent to the Honduran government are used for exactly - those in the government. Not the people of Honduras.
Exactly. The aid sent for the people is being skimmed off by the governments. It would not surprise me if some of the aid is being spent to push these people into the invasion "caravans."
If I'm donating money to a charity, and I discover 95% of the money is used for "expenses," leaving 5% for the charitable services, then I stop donating. Why should our government behave differently?
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Sure, let's discuss how aid can be provided more effectively. But that's not what Trump is suggesting. He is stamping his feet in a fit of pique, and picking at the scabs his base demands by proposing counterproductive policy.
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Sure, let's discuss how aid can be provided more effectively. But that's not what Trump is suggesting. He is stamping his feet in a fit of pique, and picking at the scabs his base demands by proposing counterproductive policy.
Let us know when you figure out how to force banana republics into not pilfering the aid.
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Let us know when you figure out how to force banana republics into not pilfering the aid.
You are missing the forest for the trees. Folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in those countries. Bad policy choices will only make the exodus worse.
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Let us know when you figure out how to force banana republics into not pilfering the aid.
@Cyber Liberty
I expect there is no accounting as to what they do with the money we give them. Stop the money going to those countries. I have to pay income tax this month - I am to the point, I think my money is wasted going to the government. Pay off the government debt; we can't afford to keep other countries viable, when we are not ourselves. John Kasich was the last person who balanced our budget and he did it TWO times. Since then, we are in a trash hole covered in debt papers. Trump will spend more money than any other president because the money is not his.
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@Cyber Liberty
I expect there is no accounting as to what they do with the money we give them. Stop the money going to those countries. I have to pay income tax this month - I am to the point, I think my money is wasted going to the government. Pay off the government debt; we can't afford to keep other countries viable, when we are not ourselves. John Kasich was the last person who balanced our budget and he did it TWO times. Since then, we are in a trash hole covered in debt papers. Trump will spend more money than any other president because the money is not his.
Actually, Texas adopts a balanced budget every two years.
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@Cyber Liberty
I expect there is no accounting as to what they do with the money we give them. Stop the money going to those countries. I have to pay income tax this month - I am to the point, I think my money is wasted going to the government. Pay off the government debt; we can't afford to keep other countries viable, when we are not ourselves. John Kasich was the last person who balanced our budget and he did it TWO times. Since then, we are in a trash hole covered in debt papers. Trump will spend more money than any other president because the money is not his.
IOW, he's just like every President in my lifetime. Each one watched the debt grow on his watch. Will Trump preside over the largest? Probably.
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Actually, Texas adopts a balanced budget every two years.
I think most states require that....
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You are missing the forest for the trees. Folks are coming here because of intolerable conditions in those countries. Bad policy choices will only make the exodus worse.
Yes, but it is not up to us to make the policy choices in those countries. However, we can lean on their governments for them to do so.
Think, man. Quit emoting all over the place.
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Yes, but it is not up to us to make the policy choices in those countries. However, we can lean on their governments for them to do so.
Think, man. Quit emoting all over the place.
People are not joining the invasion "caravans" because their governments aren't getting enough largess from the USA, they doing it because of the US promises of free stuff.
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People are not joining the invasion "caravans" because their governments aren't getting enough largess from the USA, they doing it because of the US promises of free stuff.
The exodus is because of intolerable gang violence. The governments of these countries need to impose law and order. If American aid can help in that regard, it's a bargain as compared with the cost of providing for all these asylum seekers.
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The exodus is because of intolerable gang violence. The governments of these countries need to impose law and order. If American aid can help in that regard, it's a bargain as compared with the cost of providing for all these asylum seekers.
Ah ha, now you get it! But, sort of backwards. They have transferred the gangs here. We need to impose law and order to remove the gang violence from here.
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The exodus is because of intolerable gang violence.
We need computer programmers, not stoop laborers.
They bring that same gang culture with them, imposing it here.
They consume far more in costly services, than they contribute. (medical, school, police and prisons)
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Actually, Texas adopts a balanced budget every two years.
@Sanguine
Texas, by law, must adopt a balanced budget.
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@Sanguine
Texas, by law, must adopt a balanced budget.
Correct. I'm missing the point.
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(https://i.imgur.com/R6CBB3n.jpg)
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The exodus is because of intolerable gang violence. The governments of these countries need to impose law and order. If American aid can help in that regard, it's a bargain as compared with the cost of providing for all these asylum seekers.
Bribing the corruptocrats isn't working anymore, so "help" must come from a source other than my wallet. If you want to do it go ahead and send a check, but stop forcing me to do it too at the point of the IRS gun.
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It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ending assistance to these countries will just fuel the chaos, and the exodus.
:shrug:
Then we build a higher wall.
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:shrug:
Then we build a higher wall.
And how do we do that, with Trump as President? The Dems will see this nation destroyed before they give an inch to the man they hate. They have responded to this Presidency by radicalizing themselves.
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Sure, let's discuss how aid can be provided more effectively. But that's not what Trump is suggesting. He is stamping his feet in a fit of pique, and picking at the scabs his base demands by proposing counterproductive policy.
Maybe you could just air drop turkeys on Thanksgiving....
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NOW we're engaged in thoughtful dialogue!
Look, you know my position - cutting off aid to these countries will do nothing to address the conditions that force whole families to escape intolerable violence. It is a play to Trump's white nativist base, notwithstanding that it will only spur more asylum seekers toward the border.
So explain to me why cutting off aid to the Honduran government and police will decrease the flow of asylum seekers. If there's logic to your position, kindly explain it.
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The virtues that permit cultures/societies to survive then thrive; are most
prominently, self-discipline, responsibility, courage, perseverance and honor.
These were the legacy of Greece that infused Europe for some 3000 years.
North America also embraced these while South America rejected them;
refusing to let go of their tribal backwardness. So be it!
All make choices in life which determine their culture created and values embraced.
All the pious platitudes, sanctimonious malarkey, excuse mongering and sob stories
are empty blather which change nothing. Further, we owe South America nothing.
NOTHING!!!