The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Topic started by: Blizzardnh on June 27, 2017, 01:46:46 pm
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Like any farmer, Guy Mills Jr. has had his share of equipment trouble. In the past, Mills, who grows corn, soybean and alfalfa on his 3,810-acre farm in Ansley, Neb., would have fixed his machinery himself. But like so many essential tools, Mills' equipment has become so technologically complex that he needs outside help when it breaks down. Unfortunately for him, that help can eat up time and money, both of which have been in short supply.
"If you have a bad alternator, they connect a computer to your tractor and it tells them the alternator is bad," says Mills, 57. "Before, there were other signs. Is the battery dead? Do you have lights? Just by looking at it and using deductive reasoning, you figured things out."
Mills and his fellow farmers say that part of the problem is that equipment manufacturers like Deere & Co., maker of John Deere tractors, make it difficult for consumers and independent repair shops to get the tools needed to fix today's high-tech tractors and other heavy machinery, which run on copyright-protected software. Instead, customers must often work with company-approved technicians, who can be far-flung and charge expensive rates. So Mills and other farmers nationwide have banded together in support of the so-called Right to Repair legislation. These bills, which have been proposed in at least 12 states, would require equipment manufacturers to offer the diagnostic tools, manuals and other supplies that farmers need to fix their own machines. "Customers, dealers and manufacturers should work together on the issue rather than invite government regulation that could add costs with no associated value," said Ken Golden, a spokesperson for Deere & Co.
More. http://time.com/4828099/farmers-and-apple-fight-over-the-toolbox/
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It'll go the other way. When we buy something we will be buying the right to use the product and not actual ownership. Already happening with computers and software. Microsoft is in love with this model.
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You don't pay a quarter million for a tractor (or more) to be told you don't own it, or someone is going to drive one right through your showroom, and over anything that gets in the way.
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The right answer is to not buy John-Deere products until they offer what you want/need. Using government to force them to do what you want is not the answer. Where does it end? If you buy a TV, a lawn mower, etc the manufacturer has to provide tools/software for the layman to repair it???
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You don't pay a quarter million for a tractor (or more) to be told you don't own it, or someone is going to drive one right through your showroom, and over anything that gets in the way.
A lot more is spent on software. Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought. One for 25k and one for 15k don't have to work. All the software company has to do is try to make it work.
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A lot more is spent on software. Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought. One for 25k and one for 15k don't have to work. All the software company has to do is try to make it work.
Shell out jsut shy of 380K for one of these(https://media.sandhills.com/img.axd?id=3041302518&wid=TH&p=&ext=&w=639&h=480&t=&lp=TH&c=True&wt=False&sz=Max&rt=0&checksum=wJI%2ff2sBLBX2%2bMk9XmyZ0%2foUqqFUzXKEaEWVc9EMJ8cLJB1zLFAoe5%2fHZnwhOA5qKhvOF25J2hgSKMb85Av6BrqoTUjZFWjYSaJL9diNFfY0HiCepIStluIyTUD0T7Wf) (it's used, at that price) and the seeder setup to pull behind it and it's easy to have nearly a million dollars in hardware sitting there, not counting seed and ag chemicals. When you have a fairly short growing season and 14 sections to plant (8900 acres, and yes, I know a farmer who does), you don't want to be sidelined waiting two weeks on a factory tech to show up because Deere won't share the information you need to diagnose the problem and get going.
While that may cause people to move away from Deere, you still need to get the crop in the ground in time to do some good.
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Shell out jsut shy of 380K for one of these(https://media.sandhills.com/img.axd?id=3041302518&wid=TH&p=&ext=&w=639&h=480&t=&lp=TH&c=True&wt=False&sz=Max&rt=0&checksum=wJI%2ff2sBLBX2%2bMk9XmyZ0%2foUqqFUzXKEaEWVc9EMJ8cLJB1zLFAoe5%2fHZnwhOA5qKhvOF25J2hgSKMb85Av6BrqoTUjZFWjYSaJL9diNFfY0HiCepIStluIyTUD0T7Wf) (it's used, at that price) and the seeder setup to pull behind it and it's easy to have nearly a million dollars in hardware sitting there, not counting seed and ag chemicals. When you have a fairly short growing season and 14 sections to plant (8900 acres, and yes, I know a farmer who does), you don't want to be sidelined waiting two weeks on a factory tech to show up because Deere won't share the information you need to diagnose the problem and get going.
While that may cause people to move away from Deere, you still need to get the crop in the ground in time to do some good.
I grew up in Iowa and spent a lot of time on family farms. I know how it works. Have even driven them. Walked beans and so forth.
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I grew up in Iowa and spent a lot of time on family farms. I know how it works. Have even driven them. Walked beans and so forth.
Then you know the drill. The farmers here are doing fairly well, most having kept their mineral rights in the hard times and made a grundle off the latest oil boom at favorable terms. But there is a lot of discontent over the new equipment. Any more everything is GPS tied in and incredibly efficient, but only if it works. For guys who are used to fixing their own stuff, having to wait on someone is pretty tedious. Elsewhere where people are in deep for seed loans, it can be devastating.
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A lot more is spent on software. Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought. One for 25k and one for 15k don't have to work. All the software company has to do is try to make it work.
Yep, spent over $50k for a single seat of schematic capture/PCB layout software back in 1999 and have been paying 15% of that per year for maintenance for better or worse... Sometimes way worse...
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For guys who are used to fixing their own stuff, having to wait on someone is pretty tedious. Elsewhere where people are in deep for seed loans, it can be devastating.
I know there's no way in hell I'd have a tractor I couldn't fix, no matter the bells and whistles. You've got to plow a helluva lot of ground to pay for a half million dollar machine.
At some point you might just be better off to raise up a mess of sons and keep 5 old Masseys running and have at it...
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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...
I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.
:shrug:
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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...
I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.
:shrug:
It depends on what's wrong with the tractor. There's maintenance, minor repairs and major break downs. The farmers in my family do maintenance and minor repairs (replace a hydraulic line, battery, starter). When it comes to the bigger heavier failures it takes a mechanic with tools and a way to manage the heavy items.
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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...
I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.
:shrug:
Mechanical stuff, sure. It's like cars, though. Not everyone can fix theirs when it comes to downloading the codes and fixing software and sensor problems, even with the code keys and OBDII reader, for instance.
Now that Deere has increasingly computerized the tractor, they aren't sharing the software to fix it, and that's part of the problem. Sometimes the problem is the software.
(https://media.sandhills.com/img.axd?id=3041302550&wid=TH&p=&ext=&w=639&h=480&t=&lp=TH&c=True&wt=False&sz=Max&rt=0&checksum=wJI%2ff2sBLBWZjesVEETunWANYoPQXYE%2bGnJxw8PZLrv7CyKvyM%2bJ%2b%2b4xr5y7cSkkLnuuMkM%2fcY2paqLBT00A%2bwhc6gLudqujWdxnU3%2fvpfsa1fI30wA2Mws7Qf1siOT3)
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Mechanical stuff, sure. It's like cars, though. Not everyone can fix theirs when it comes to downloading the codes and fixing software and sensor problems, even with the code keys and OBDII reader, for instance.
Now that Deere has increasingly computerized the tractor, they aren't sharing the software to fix it, and that's part of the problem. Sometimes the problem is the software.
(https://media.sandhills.com/img.axd?id=3041302550&wid=TH&p=&ext=&w=639&h=480&t=&lp=TH&c=True&wt=False&sz=Max&rt=0&checksum=wJI%2ff2sBLBWZjesVEETunWANYoPQXYE%2bGnJxw8PZLrv7CyKvyM%2bJ%2b%2b4xr5y7cSkkLnuuMkM%2fcY2paqLBT00A%2bwhc6gLudqujWdxnU3%2fvpfsa1fI30wA2Mws7Qf1siOT3)
The answer is to make Deere suffer in the market place if they won't provide what their customers want.
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The answer is to make Deere suffer in the market place if they won't provide what their customers want.
I agree, but in the meantime, you have people 'stuck' with a million dollars worth of unproductive equipment who still have to get their crops in.
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[snip] These bills, which have been proposed in at least 12 states, would require equipment manufacturers to offer the diagnostic tools, manuals and other supplies that farmers need to fix their own machines. "Customers, dealers and manufacturers should work together on the issue rather than invite government regulation that could add costs with no associated value," said Ken Golden, a spokesperson for Deere & Co. [/snip]
Tractors last a long time. Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.
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Tractors last a long time. Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.
But mess around with their simplicity and repair-ability, and profitability in manufacturing will decline all the same.
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Tractors last a long time. Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.
Leave a farmer sitting in the middle of planting with a million dollars worth of idle equipment he can't just get back up and running, and the next million dollars for equipment will go elsewhere anyway.
At issue isn't manufacturing, it's maintenance.
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Nope. Some of the profits are on the back end. Cars used to be simpler, and easier to work on, and many a dad was a Sunday driveway mechanic. Now they're more complex, but only need a tuneup every 50,000 miles or more. Tires used to need changing at least twice a year here in the snow belt -- now they're radials and just get rotated every other LOF.
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Nope. Some of the profits are on the back end. Cars used to be simpler, and easier to work on, and many a dad was a Sunday driveway mechanic. Now they're more complex, but only need a tuneup every 50,000 miles or more. Tires used to need changing at least twice a year here in the snow belt -- now they're radials and just get rotated every other LOF.
All of the farmer's profits depend on getting the crop in. When you farm thousands of acres that huge six figure dust collector out there will only garner enmity. Piss off a farmer, and you lose his business for life.
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Use Joel Salatan's farming methods and put a major pinch on John Deere. No government intervention necessary.
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Use Joel Salatan's farming methods and put a major pinch on John Deere. No government intervention necessary.
Unfortunately that won't work on a 7000 acre wheat farm in a much colder climate.
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Unfortunately that won't work on a 7000 acre wheat farm in a much colder climate.
Fortunately you don't need 7000 acres to do what he does.
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Fortunately you don't need 7000 acres to do what he does.
That's all fine, but it doesn't make anyone a living up this way, or put bread on a lot of tables.
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That's all fine, but it doesn't make anyone a living up this way, or put bread on a lot of tables.
Maybe they should try his way, then. It puts a lot of bread on a lot of tables.
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Nope. Some of the profits are on the back end. Cars used to be simpler, and easier to work on, and many a dad was a Sunday driveway mechanic. Now they're more complex, but only need a tuneup every 50,000 miles or more. Tires used to need changing at least twice a year here in the snow belt -- now they're radials and just get rotated every other LOF.
I drive a lot for my job about 40-50k miles per year. I usually trade cars in when they get 160-175k miles. Other than brakes, oil changes, air filter and tires I have never even changed plugs. I got over 80k miles on my Goodyears the car came with and they still had tread but I let the car get out of alignment so the inside was worn down.
I remember the old points and rotor and cap days lol
@SunkenCiv
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Back in the old days a farmer would keep his tractor for 25-30 years. Today full time farmers keep their new tractors on average 7-9 years according to industry records
The dealer I bought my tractor from said in the old days 1970's when his father ran the business they would sell 50 tractors per year if they were lucky. He told me in the month of April they sold 38 and we have less family farms.
People want the very latest gadgets and nice paint.
I have neighbors like that buy the latest Kubota and 2 years later trading it in for a new model because they get bored with it.
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Maybe they should try his way, then. It puts a lot of bread on a lot of tables.
I'm glad his way works for him. I'm glad he feeds lots of people. Please note:
North Dakota is number one in the production of two wheat classes: hard red spring and durum. On average, the state's farmers grow nearly half of the nation's hard red spring wheat (250 million bushels) and two-thirds of the durum (50 million bushels). That's just part of the agricultural output, overall wheat production is second to Kansas most years.
The solution isn't trying to grow something inappropriate for the climate, it's to buy different equipment next time.
Just for your viewing pleasure (If you see a lot of trees, well, it wasn't North Dakota. :laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41tdkNct4Tg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41tdkNct4Tg)
It is a different sort of farming than you see further South, it is not land which commonly lends itself to that which can be done on 500 acre farms in warmer and more moist climates, and it puts food on tables around the world.
North Dakota also is the leading U.S. producer of sunflower, barley, dry edible beans, navy and pinto beans, canola, flax, oats, honey, lentils and dry peas. The state also is a major producer of sugarbeets, potatoes, hay and specialty crops such as mustard seed, buckwheat and crambe.
http://www.ndwheat.com/buyers/default.asp?ID=293 (http://www.ndwheat.com/buyers/default.asp?ID=293)
That sort of farming is really only economical on a large scale. Very large. Which takes large equipment because the growing season here is short. (We get 16 hours of sunlight at peak of summer, but by winter, we're down to 8 hours of sunlight and 30 below zero is not uncommon.)
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How much ag welfare are they getting for not trying new methods?
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How much ag welfare are they getting for not trying new methods?
US farming crop yields increase each year, better fertilizers, gps on tractors and seeders to control right amount of seeds and fertilizer.
Farmers are at the front of using the very latest technology.
As I said before crop subsidies to farmerss keep our food prices stable. Without subsidies one year bread would be 1.00 loaf, next year 10.00 loaf.
@goodwithagun
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How much ag welfare are they getting for not trying new methods?
For starters, I lived in the Shenandoah Valley for a few years while I went to college. Lovely place, even if parts of it are getting downright crowded. I like mountains and trees, I like warm climates, too, but the coldest air temperatures I experienced there were ten degrees above zero.
Here, we have no mountains. Most of the trees away from the river bottoms (the ones which haven't been flooded along the Missouri) have been planted as shelter belts to keep wind from blowing the fields to Minnesota.
My first reaction when I arrived here to the absence of things between here and there, "there' being a very long ways away by Shenandoah Valley standards, considering you aren't standing on the south peak of Massanutten Mountain, was that there was nothing to get behind to shelter from the wind. Now, that was an extreme case, because Grand Forks, ND is in the middle of the old Lake Agassiz plain, otherwise known as The Red River Valley up this way (not to be confused with the Red River in Texas), but it is actually one of the flattest places on earth, and a site for microwave transmission experiments because the terrain is flatter than the open ocean.
Add in the 'climate shock', as in my ignorance I was regaled by the locals with stories of how the temperature would get to 30 below and stay there for weeks. I took those stories at face value, and to my surprise, there was no exaggeration. We had a month with the high temperature of zero. (Little did I know it was a truly nasty winter, at least until I caught a couple of locals griping about it.)
Salatan's methods are wonderful for small farms with different crops, in different locations. It might even work on a small scale here, in places where water is more plentiful along the little bit of river bottom the Corps of Engineers hasn't flooded out or seized because it could be, but that is a terribly small nibble of the land here.
For the rest, those methods aren't likely to work. There is not the population density to support the 'local customer' aspect.
By contrast, the Shenandoah Valley has I-81, I-64, and I-66 (Not to mention US 33) to bring in outside customers, as if Stanton and Harrisonburg (and Waynesboro) were not large enough to support such an operation. (My, how they've grown since I was there last). Stanton alone has a population over 2/3 of the whole county I live in, and that's just one of the 53 counties in ND where wheat is grown (Yep, all 53).
So, I guess we'll just have to keep sending unit trains of hard red wheat and durum out of here, some of which will be exported, some used here in the US. (https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/wheat-field-train-6275705.jpg)
(Freighter loading with grain at Duluth, MN, Maltese flag, Polish ownership)
(http://duluthshippingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2015-0909-3647_thumb.jpg)
Just because that's too much bread and pasta for anyone in this area.
Farming, like anything based on weather and soil type and terrain, is not a one size fits all deal. The tractors and tillage equipment used here would have a hard time turning around in the tobacco fields I worked in as a child in Southern Maryland. A 'big' tractor for there, then might be used to pull a few bales out to livestock here (Those are considered 'collectors items' now, or are in use by 'hobby' farmers and small field operations.)
I think it is wonderful that the folks at Polyface Farm have going what they do, but it's no more appropriate here than 'winter wear' in Ft. Lauderdale, FL is for Minot, ND.
The software at issue here, (because that's what these malfunctions are, generally, software problems) is used to keep track of the application of ag chemicals (including fertilizers) and seeding operations, minimizing the amount of material used for optimal yields. That's important when you're farming six or seven thousand acres, as is getting that crop in in a timely fashion, because the growing season on America's steppes is short.
(https://i1.wp.com/bonnieplants.com/wp-content/uploads/hardiness-halfzones.jpg?w=1024&ssl=1)
We're in the purple part at the top of the map. It calls for a different sort of farming, and with grain prices what they are (even with the annually adjusted subsidies) efficiency and scale are the key to making a living.
You can't do efficiency or scale without good equipment, and that was the issue here. There sits a mechanically able tractor, with the 60 ft. seeder rig behind it, fueled up and ready to go and the software glitches and stops the whole operation. Farmers, who are used to fixing their own stuff and getting back to work, want the information they need to do so. John Deere thinks they'll just have to wait for the tech to show up, but a week or two for that to happen is lost yield. That dog won't hunt. **nononono*