The Briefing Room
Briefing Room Polls (Guests Welcome!) => The Briefingroom Polls => Topic started by: Jazzhead on March 19, 2020, 04:09:56 pm
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This seems to be the bottom line question - what balance do we seek?
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I'd argue that much of that economic loss would happen with or without government's heavy hand. People are people. The run on TP, hand sanitizers, food wasn't caused by government specifically. People not going to restaurants and other places where there are lots of people would have happened anyway. So it is all a matter of degree. Did government make it worse, very likely but it still would have happened.
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I am struggling with your premise...
We are not having economic issues because we are saving folks, wall street is having a problem because they are cowards and decided to engage in profit taking and protecting their off-shore billion dollar bonuses rather than staying the course.
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I see the premise as faulty too.
Are 30 million people, maybe double, maybe 50 million people in hospital beds using medicines, defibrillators, respirators, nurses, doctors, worth it? Do we have the manpower to deal with this?
It's not just who dies, there's a whole lot more to this. Yes, older people are dying, those often with special medical conditions, would it be more if the young people were not treated? They are going to ICU too.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VyC0EemHc1Y/Xme_TgbXieI/AAAAAAADvw4/I2cz-bKUJkUnOXgYSusCAIBhODeMnwUigCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/1918-spanish-flu-27.jpg)
(https://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2020/03/08/21c3fd53-f388-4ebd-afa6-5fbf5900e2f3/thumbnail/1200x630/6fa6a78908e0ab75e0e1ade60aa1b3b5/sm-h4-teichner-pandemic-cu-copy-01-consolidated-01-frame-824.jpg)
So, these others also require medical attention to shrug off and simplify that hey, it's just killing a small percentage of the population. I think people need to understand that.
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That post earlier I wrote about the millions who could be sick at the same time, well, here's the Hoover Institute, maybe only 9 million which would still be a lot. Now, I can't find that figure but this below is an interesting read nonetheless:
Coronavirus Perspective
by Richard A. Epstein
Monday, March 16, 2020
...
From this available data, it seems more probable than not that the total number of cases world-wide will peak out at well under 1 million, with the total number of deaths at under 50,000 (up about eightfold). In the United States, if the total death toll increases at about the same rate, the current 67 deaths should translate into about 500 deaths at the end. Of course, every life lost is a tragedy—and the potential loss of 50,000 lives world-wide would be appalling—but those deaths stemming from the coronavirus are not more tragic than others, so that the same social calculus applies here that should apply in other cases.
These are deeply contrarian estimates. In dealing with any future prediction it is necessary to develop some model. Right now, the overwhelming consensus, based upon the most recent reports, is that the rate of infection will continue to increase so that the most severe interventions are needed to control what will under the worst of circumstances turn into a high rate of death. This pessimistic view is well captured in an op-ed by Nicholas Kristof and Stuart Thompson, who offer this graph to stress the importance and the immediacy of the looming crisis.
Read more at: https://www.hoover.org/research/coronavirus-isnt-pandemic (https://www.hoover.org/research/coronavirus-isnt-pandemic)
At the same time, Governor Newsom of California is talking about possibly a lot being infected.
Newsom Projects Over Half of Californians Will Be Infected, Requests $1 Billion in Federal Funds
https://newsthud.com/newsom-projects-over-half-of-californians-will-be-infected-requests-1-billion-in-federal-funds/ (https://newsthud.com/newsom-projects-over-half-of-californians-will-be-infected-requests-1-billion-in-federal-funds/)
So, take everything with a grain salt, just reading what is out there. If Governor Newsom were correct, just California would have 24 million infected, surely this is way too high. This is a real doomsday scenario.
So, estimates are going to be varied.
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Again, the numbers are skewed.
What we don't know: How many have had the virus and only had mild or no symptoms at all.
Why? Because testing has generally been limited to people who are sick, as in sick enough to seek medical care.
Without that number, there can be no reasonable or accurate estimate of mortality, period.
We can identify risk groups from mortality data, in that virtually all (99%) of those who have died have had one or more medical conditions, notably Hypertension, coronary Disease, or Diabetes, and there may be other conditions not talked about like HIV/AIDS, antirejection drugs for transplanted organs, chemotherapy, etc.
While that is no guarantee that the absence of those factors precludes serous medical problems or death, it tends to eliminate those without those risk factors from serious risk of mortality.
We are not getting the whole picture, just a close up of mortality. While scary enough to keep eyes glued to the screen and sell papers, that just isn't good data. Political motivations are suspect as well, especially from a media that has demonstrated the most bias of any in my lifetime.
What we do know is that as jobs disappear from the measures taken to reduce panic, the health insurance for those same people will go the way of the dodo bird. Many of those businesses will not come back from a protracted shutdown. So, not only is there economic risk, the absence of insurance for many may mean they delay health care and actually increase mortality when they might have otherwise sought appropriate care at an earlier date because their insurance would have covered the lion's share of the expenses. People covered under a spouse's plan might not get that care, either.
All those put out of work will suffer economic hardship, even if they never meet someone with a COVID 19 infection, as will their dependents.
Government stepping in to pay people some sort of compensation for that will inevitably leave people falling through the cracks, increases the national debt (if someone can be found to purchase those instruments of debt--likely the Chinese won't), and only paves the road to a more socialistic model.
What has made this problem worse is the way it has been reported, with an emphasis on a relatively few dead. (I know I'll get gigged as "unfeeling" for that, but really, there are 7,800,000,000 people in the world, and just over 10,000 deaths). By those numbers so far, we'd expect a grand total of deaths from this virus in this state (ND) of 1 (Yes, one, that isn't a misprint or typo).
In the meantime, tens of thousands are out of work out of that same population.
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I wish there was an I don’t know button.
I see good and bad points for both arguments. :facepalm2:
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I wish there was an I don’t know button.
I see good and bad points for both arguments. :facepalm2:
Yours is probably the most correct answer.
The rest of us are just making educated guesses.
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As @TomSea has alluded above and elsewhere...the preoccupation with the death numbers from this virus is folly. It’s been pretty explicitly stated here and elsewhere: the REAL danger of this virus is its potential to overwhelm our healthcare system. When there are no more hospital beds, mask, ventilators, etc, etc...then not only are our healthcare workers in more jeopardy, further exacerbating the problem, but now people will be dying from heart attacks, stroke, infections, broken legs, etc. There is no way to quantify THAT number. Or the price that should be paid for that number.
Side note: Tom, we’ve had our differences in the past, you’ve been excellent on this topic from what I’ve seen.
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@Axeslinger I am humbled, thanks.
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A balance must be struck, and soon. The messages of social distancing and sanitation are being heard, but enforcement of social distancing by government is about to turn the economy into a pumpkin, ruining the futures of millions.
We need to quickly move from a total shutdown to a sensible series of prohibitions on large gatherings that allows more people to return to work. Businesses should be advised to open if they provide hand sanitizer to all who enter, and perhaps restrict the total number of people in the establishment. Say, allow restaurants to open if they remove a third of their seating capacity and space out the rest.
I agree with Smokin' Joe that unless a balance is struck, and soon, the human cost of job losses may overwhelm us. As the WSJ said this morning, "No society can safeguard public health for long at the cost of its overall economic health. Even America's resources to fight a viral plague aren't limitless - and they become more limited by the day as individuals lose jobs, businesses close, and American prosperity gives way to poverty. America urgently needs a pandemic strategy that is more economically and socially sustainable than the current national lockdown."
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It's not even a fair question,given the untold tens of thousands who will die due to suddenly being out of work and unable to afford to buy both food and medical care.
And hitting those still employed with devastating tax increases so the government will have the money to provide "free stuff" to SOME of the newly unemployed will make it even worse.
Keep in mind that providing for the merely unemployed will NOT be a government priority. They will focus on those with this new flue.
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I am struggling with your premise...
We are not having economic issues because we are saving folks, wall street is having a problem because they are cowards and decided to engage in profit taking and protecting their off-shore billion dollar bonuses rather than staying the course.
@EdinVA
Ed,that is just business,as usual, "A typical day on Wall Street".
What this REALLY represents is a HUGE opportunity for the Globalists to use it as a tool to scare the timid (most of the world population) into accepting a World Wide Globalist Government. After all,this is being broadcast all over the world as a problem too big for any government to handle,right?
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That post earlier I wrote about the millions who could be sick at the same time, well, here's the Hoover Institute, maybe only 9 million which would still be a lot. Now, I can't find that figure but this below is an interesting read nonetheless:
At the same time, Governor Newsom of California is talking about possibly a lot being infected.
So, take everything with a grain salt, just reading what is out there. If Governor Newsom were correct, just California would have 24 million infected, surely this is way too high. This is a real doomsday scenario.
So, estimates are going to be varied.
@TomSea
Governor Newsom is the captain of a sinking ship named "The Socialist State of California",and this disease is a gift to him because he sees it as a way to get federal money to bail him out from bankruptcy while providing even more "free stuff" to the homeless,drug addicted,"touchy-feely" voting population that put him into office.
He is claiming 24 Million today,tomorrow it will be 30 or 40 million. It's all about da Benjamins and the political power they buy.
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A balance must be struck, and soon. The messages of social distancing and sanitation are being heard, but enforcement of social distancing by government is about to turn the economy into a pumpkin, ruining the futures of millions.
We need to quickly move from a total shutdown to a sensible series of prohibitions on large gatherings that allows more people to return to work. Businesses should be advised to open if they provide hand sanitizer to all who enter, and perhaps restrict the total number of people in the establishment. Say, allow restaurants to open if they remove a third of their seating capacity and space out the rest.
I agree with Smokin' Joe that unless a balance is struck, and soon, the human cost of job losses may overwhelm us. As the WSJ said this morning, "No society can safeguard public health for long at the cost of its overall economic health. Even America's resources to fight a viral plague aren't limitless - and they become more limited by the day as individuals lose jobs, businesses close, and American prosperity gives way to poverty. America urgently needs a pandemic strategy that is more economically and socially sustainable than the current national lockdown."
LEO's in the Bay Area are now handing out citations for failure to keep proper 'social distancing' and being in public for unapproved reasons. In the cases I'm familiar with the fine is $400.00.
The Christmas party down at the station this year should be a real hootenanny.
With economic damage comes an erosion in civil liberties. This concerns me more.
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@EdinVA
Ed,that is just business,as usual, "A typical day on Wall Street".
What this REALLY represents is a HUGE opportunity for the Globalists to use it as a tool to scare the timid (most of the world population) into accepting a World Wide Globalist Government. After all,this is being broadcast all over the world as a problem too big for any government to handle,right?
@sneakypete
I cannot help but think, given the size of some of these funds on wall street, that this is nothing more than the herd mentality.
When a $200 million fund moves, the ground shakes and the small folks follow...
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I wish there was an I don’t know button.
I see good and bad points for both arguments. :facepalm2:
I agree on that.
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This is the 15 day "stay home" period. Hopefully, if Americans follow what our leaders have said, about 2 weeks from now, we will know where we stand and then, perhaps move in to the South Korea model which is precautions but working all the same. So, what we are doing now, is an urgent response, we will also have more of an idea on who is infected, confirmed cases.
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Not to be a jerk, but who among us are qualified to answer this?
There is no right answer to this.
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With economic damage comes an erosion in civil liberties. This concerns me more.
Same here. I surprised there isn't more chatter/concern over this aspect of things.
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/29/2931d88fd10995336300554a5507c0eb.png)
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I agree on that.
Any chance it could be added? I haven’t voted yet. Btw, NY state is going on lockdown
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As @TomSea has alluded above and elsewhere...the preoccupation with the death numbers from this virus is folly. It’s been pretty explicitly stated here and elsewhere: the REAL danger of this virus is its potential to overwhelm our healthcare system. When there are no more hospital beds, mask, ventilators, etc, etc...then not only are our healthcare workers in more jeopardy, further exacerbating the problem, but now people will be dying from heart attacks, stroke, infections, broken legs, etc. There is no way to quantify THAT number. Or the price that should be paid for that number.
Side note: Tom, we’ve had our differences in the past, you’ve been excellent on this topic from what I’ve seen.
:amen: Agreed. Thank you @TomSea
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It’s been pretty explicitly stated here and elsewhere: the REAL danger of this virus is its potential to overwhelm our healthcare system.
No. It WILL overwhelm the health system. Preordained. Deaths WILL happen. Preordained.
Shutting down industry removes all hope of beating that.
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Same here. I surprised there isn't more chatter/concern over this aspect of things.
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/29/2931d88fd10995336300554a5507c0eb.png)
I'm chattering!
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Not to be a jerk, but who among us are qualified to answer this?
There is no right answer to this.
I totally agree...who among us?
I believe that we can rebuild the economy. It can be fixed. The only thing that can't be fixed is...dead.
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In the president's own words, "this is war". He is right.
And if Gen George Patton was asked about corona virus, he would say we will lose good people in this battle, but we are going to win the war. We're going to kick the sh*t out of this (*$#@. There are acceptable casualties in any war. We have to get past the notion that if one person dies it is too many.
This nation cannot afford to be shut down more than two weeks. If that happens, we are destroying the lives of the living. Being practical, we are a nation of 330 million. The nation can sustain loses far beyond what we are willing to consider. We need to start that consideration. 210 are dead. We lose more people by a factor of X times on the road daily versus the daily mortality rate of this virus.
THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT COMMIT SUICIDE FROM DESPAIR BECAUSE THEIR LIFE HAS BEEN DESTROYED WILL BE FAR GREATER THAN THE VIRUS IF WE STAY ON THE PATH WE ARE ON.
The limiting factor is the healthcare system. They are not prepared to handle the number of people who would be critical with this virus, so they are spreading the impact over time. I understand that.
In 2014, William Frieden, Head of the CDC predicted 1.2 million deaths with the Ebola outbreak in Africa. From 2014 to 2016, Africa lost 11,323. Simply stated, these medical pukes cannot be trusted. Their methods of calculating casualties are clearly deficient. The CDC is now calculating 200,000 to 1.7 million deaths in the USA from corona. I say MAJOR B*LLSH*T!!! Again, these folks are creating a huge panic that is not necessary.
My wife works for the CDC. She deals with three bacteria that do not have common names that kill 8,000 per year in the USA. And guess what, you never heard of these bacteria, and I am not talking MRSA. Her bacteria are resistant to anti-biotics, you get it, you have a high probability of dying. And the media says nothing.
And for three years, I have listened to my wife at the dinner table complain about how EVERYONE at the CDC hates Trump. There is no doubt in my mind these people would pull some stunts to destroy Trump. And that includes the NIH and FDA. These people want Trump gone.
THIS VIRUS IS NOT GOING AWAY. THE ADVICE TRUMP IS RECEIVING IS INTENDED TO REMOVE HIM FROM OFFICE. I AM 100% CONVINCED OF THIS.
I do not want to see any more people die, but we are destroying our nation with 210 dead. This is insanity. And the media are criminal in their behavior. In the same period of time, we have had thousands dead from the flu. In the same period of time, we have lost 2,000 people from the bacteria my wife works on that YOU NEVER HEARD OF!!!
"What do you say to the American people that are scared?" Some maggot lying f**kstick of a reporter just asked this question to Trump. Trump is right to take a position of optimism, to encourage the people to have faith and believe we will defeat this nasty virus from China. YES, the CHINA VIRUS. THIS IS THE THIRD GLOBAL INFECTION THAT HAS ORIGINATED FROM CHINA IN ROUGHLY 20 YEARS. The time has come to isolate away from China. They are not an honest nation of the world. They are devious and killing people around the globe, and the time has come for them to pay for their criminal behavior.
My wife worked on the Ebola outbreak in Africa for two years. Hard as it may be to comprehend, even medical workers there did not fully appreciate the NECESSITY of washing hands. The CDC developed a training program that covered all the reasons to wash your hands properly and demonstrated the proper procedures to follow in Africa for the people.
Here in the USA, we have been inundated on proper procedures, ie. hand washing, social distancing, etc. Restaurants do not need to reduce tables because of this virus(heard this suggested today), but we could make it mandatory everyone use hand sanitizer upon entry and exit of restaurants and all establishments. So if any of us enter a business establishment, and go to press the button for the elevator to go up, we have used hand sanitizer upon entry into the building.
Trump needs to get away from these doctors who would gladly make this a career event, this virus. Oh yes, these medical folks would gladly make this a decade long effort if you let them. Doctors in the USA got out of the business of cure and have focused on making everything maintenance oriented. How do I keep this patient for the rest of their life as a patient paying me money. That is American medicine today.
Are any of you aware that prior to 1914 when the AMA gained control/influence of Congress, homeopathic medicine was the prevalent form of medicine in the USA? They had as many of their schools as the AMA type physicians did. When they gained Congressional influence, they drove the homeopaths out of business. There is a reason the homeopaths are coming back!!!
And another point important to know, nations across the world are watching what we do here in the USA and they are following our lead....INCLUDING RUSSIA, WHO IS IMPLEMENTING STEP BY STEP EVERYTHING WE ARE DOING, LIKE THEY ARE A KID MIMICKING OUR ACTIONS.
One last thought. I have been with my wife for 20 years. When I enter the house, before I touch anything, and this was policy for the past 20 years, I MUST wash my hands thoroughly like I am going into an operating room to conduct surgery. I am expected to take my shoes off entering the house. No shoes are worn inside the house. EVER!!! If I had to guess, I have been washing my hands 30-40 times a day since married.
Moving forward, wash your hands thoroughly, keep your distance from others, try not to touch anything that is commonly touched, i.e door knobs, etc. I use my sleeve to cover a door knob, and did this years before Corona. Use disinfectants on surfaces, door knobs daily within your home. Keep your hands away from your face. The average person touches their face 2-3 times a minute. Just end that routine now. Wash your hands when you go to the bathroom. I can't tell you how many men go into a public bathroom, do their business and walk out not washing their hands. More than 50%!!!
Study was done a few years ago, and I believe 27% of doctors wash their hands going patient to patient. Nurses were better with like 45% if I recall. If you or someone you know is in the hospital, tell them not to permit anyone to approach them without washing their hands right in the room. And anyone going to a hospital, when you get home, literally wash your hands like you are going into surgery. Why? All three of the bacteria my wife works on tend to live and thrive in hospitals. They are very deadly.
Time will play its role too. The panic will subside with time.
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Same here. I surprised there isn't more chatter/concern over this aspect of things.
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/29/2931d88fd10995336300554a5507c0eb.png)
Oh, that is starting up. The concern is there, ammo and guns are flying off the shelves. But some people aren't paying attention past their next meal or roll of TP. I have been out every day, five stores, and have not seen any toilet paper in any of them. Pretty soon, social distancing (and standing up wind from the 'have nots') will be instinctive..
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If you run out of TP there's always the shower... A walk in upside down bidet so to speak...
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Same here. I surprised there isn't more chatter/concern over this aspect of things.
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/29/2931d88fd10995336300554a5507c0eb.png)
@Polly Ticks
Everybody is too busy jumping through their asses trying to find another truck load of toilet paper to buy.
I saw the ultimate stupidity today when I hauled trash to the local dump. There was a 30's-something couple sitting in a new hatchback that had just dropped a plastic bag of household trash in the dumpster,and there they both sat inside their new car,washing their hands with some sort of anti-bacterial cream. Rubbing for all they were worth,too. They seemed to get pissed when I beeped the horn and hollered at them to get the hell out of the way so I could dump my trash bag.
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If you run out of TP there's always the shower... A walk in upside down bidet so to speak...
Maybe that'll work for you but I haven't been able to do a handstand for years.
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Same here. I surprised there isn't more chatter/concern over this aspect of things.
(https://www.quotemaster.org/images/29/2931d88fd10995336300554a5507c0eb.png)
@skeeter @Pollyticks
The economic AND the political damage to our system are far more dangerous than this virus,but the typical 'murikan of today doesn't give a damn about anything other than "Me,me,ME,DAMMIT!"
Thus the panic buying and hoarding.
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Yes and if you have proof that this proposed other way won't be costly as well, please post it.
Your way might see the whole health system crash down and maybe other significant parts of the economy, it's no silver bullet either. I saw long lines at the bank today so, it's not something to take lightly, I gather that.
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Yes and if you have proof that this proposed other way won't be costly as well, please post it.
Your way might see the whole health system crash down and maybe other significant parts of the economy, it's no silver bullet either. I saw long lines at the bank today so, it's not something to take lightly, I gather that.
When banks lock their doors and only allow a limited transaction at the drive through, it is definitely not a good sign. Lots of people do on-line banking and pay their bills and make purchases with their debit or credit cards at the stores, so when people are taking their cash out of banks, that says something, especially since accounts are supposed to be FDIC insured.
I was made aware today, that the Feds decided Monday that banks did NOT have to keep cash on hand to cover their assets. They are allowed to have a limited cash reserve.
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@skeeter @Pollyticks
The economic AND the political damage to our system are far more dangerous than this virus,but the typical 'murikan of today doesn't give a damn about anything other than "Me,me,ME,DAMMIT!"
Thus the panic buying and hoarding.
If the US suffers lasting economic damage the entire world suffers.
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If the US suffers lasting economic damage the entire world suffers.
What we call the Great Depression wound it's way around the world, too. That does not prevent another.
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Maybe that'll work for you but I haven't been able to do a handstand for years.
That's probably a good thing... The flow direction is all wrong...
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That's probably a good thing... The flow direction is all wrong...
:3:
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If the US suffers lasting economic damage the entire world suffers.
@skeeter
Make no mistake about this,the US is just ONE slice of the cake they are baking. IMHO,this is nothing less than a serious international movement to kick "World Wide Government,Inc" into gear,and any nation that isn't willing to play is going to be hit with a total economic aid embargo as well as any say into what happens.
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Which is more vital in order for Mankind to endure?
Material Betterment or spiritual salvation?
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Which is more vital for Mankind to endure?
Material Betterment or spiritual salvation?
False dichotomy, but here goes:
The two walk hand in hand.
Without enough economy to eat (not the ostentatious wealth of the uber rich, who often patronize the arts, but enough), the final answer to spiritual salvation ever hovers close.
Both are moot without survival.
As the 20th century has especially taught us abject poverty=>unrest=>violence in the streets=>mob rule, burning the books, and the destruction of both material goods and, with them, often the rejection and/or destruction of the writings of those who have pursued spiritual salvation.
Those writings owe their survival to a small minority of faithful who squirreled them away, often undiscovered for centuries.
Mankind, or at least the civilized version, seems subject to such occasional social paroxysms, and either those or outside conquest of the corrupt (or a combination) have marked most major cultural transitions in the last several thousand years.
Some of the writings of those quests for salvation survived, some did not.
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The libraries of Alexandria. (lost)
The Burning of Rome (?)
The sacking of the Catholic Monastaries in England (what was lost?)
The destruction of Mayan Codices (more lost)
The French Revolution
The Oktober Revolution
etc. etc. etc.
I do not include the American Revolution, which unusually created a secular government and philosophy with deep roots in the spiritual.
But humankind is ready to burn the books again, just waiting for an excuse, and it has been primed for such since learning to live under the penumbra of impending apocalypse during the beginning of the Nuclear Age.
The whole while, there remain those in the wings who will not let a crisis go to waste, even if they have to create it.
Ultimately, their material gain will be moot, as will everyone's great and small.
But despite this false dichotomy of one or the other, can we not have both, some reasonable economy and with it the means to be benevolent? Even the Widow had a mite.
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False dichotomy, but here goes:
The two walk hand in hand.
Without enough economy to eat (not the ostentatious wealth of the uber rich, who often patronize the arts, but enough), the final answer to spiritual salvation ever hovers close.
Both are moot without survival.
As the 20th century has especially taught us abject poverty=>unrest=>violence in the streets=>mob rule, burning the books, and the destruction of both material goods and, with them, often the rejection and/or destruction of the writings of those who have pursued spiritual salvation.
Those writings owe their survival to a small minority of faithful who squirreled them away, often undiscovered for centuries.
Mankind, or at least the civilized version, seems subject to such occasional social paroxysms, and either those or outside conquest of the corrupt (or a combination) have marked most major cultural transitions in the last several thousand years.
Some of the writings of those quests for salvation survived, some did not.
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The libraries of Alexandria. (lost)
The Burning of Rome (?)
The sacking of the Catholic Monastaries in England (what was lost?)
The destruction of Mayan Codices (more lost)
The French Revolution
The Oktober Revolution
etc. etc. etc.
I do not include the American Revolution, which unusually created a secular government and philosophy with deep roots in the spiritual.
But humankind is ready to burn the books again, just waiting for an excuse, and it has been primed for such since learning to live under the penumbra of impending apocalypse during the beginning of the Nuclear Age.
The whole while, there remain those in the wings who will not let a crisis go to waste, even if they have to create it.
Ultimately, their material gain will be moot, as will everyone's great and small.
But despite this false dichotomy of one or the other, can we not have both, some reasonable economy and with it the means to be benevolent? Even the Widow had a mite.
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As an opinion forum all are entitled yet respectfully but emphatically disagree.
Within all of Creation, Man stands apart for a simple but unique reason,
the existence of a Soul, his source of creativity, individualism and most critically,
spiritualism, which Plato fully understood.
From the Garden of Eden till the French Enlightenment, spanning tens of thousands
of years, the latter trait defined Man more than any other, exemplified by the Art
he created be it in Architecture, in Literature as Drama, Poetry, the Novel,
in Painting, in Music; to name just a few.
Then the Enlightenment, buttressed by the birth of Capitalism, changed Man's
focus asserting that material betterment was Man's higher calling.
Man is certainly not better off for that dynamic change, as his behavior since
the French Revolution affirms.
One has only to glance at the self labeled "Art" of Modern Man to grasp the
impact of the decline of the spiritual on the individual and on life.
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As an opinion forum all are entitled yet respectfully but emphatically disagree.
Within all of Creation, Man stands apart for a simple but unique reason,
the existence of a Soul, his source of creativity, individualism and most critically,
spiritualism, which Plato fully understood.
From the Garden of Eden till the French Enlightenment, spanning tens of thousands
of years, the latter trait defined Man more than any other, exemplified by the Art
he created be it in Architecture, in Literature as Drama, Poetry, the Novel,
in Painting, in Music; to name just a few.
Then the Enlightenment, buttressed by the birth of Capitalism, changed Man's
focus asserting that material betterment was Man's higher calling.
Man is certainly not better off for that dynamic change, as his behavior since
the French Revolution affirms.
One has only to glance at the self labeled "Art" of Modern Man to grasp the
impact of the decline of the spiritual on the individual and on life.
Nearly so...
Nephesh... Soul...
There are 5 kinds of nephesh to match the kinds of creatures.
Everything has a soul. Everything is sentient.
The difference in Man is that his nephesh is fashoned to be an image of YHWH.
Each one a tiny sliver of what it is to be a God.
Finding it in oneself is often even harder than finding it in others.