ISRAEL IS PREPARING TO SHOW THE WORLD FOOTAGE OF THE OCTOBER 7 MASSACRE.

[Hoodat]

Please, correct me if I've got this wrong --- but, didn't the PLO's promise to erase Israel from the earth come in the July 1968 Palestine National Charter --- 13 months after the Six Day War and the further displacement of Palestinians and occupation?

Don't you find it ironic that at the time of the '67 war, the PLO made absolutely no territorial claims to either Gaza or the West Bank?  Their sole territorial claim was Israel itself.  The PLO advocated the elimination of Israel from its founding in 1964.  In other words, you lied.  Again.

Anyhoo, do you care to explain why the PLO chose to initiate a guerilla war against Israel from the onset of their '64 charter - a war that had been going on for three years prior to the Six Day War?

[Luis Gonzalez]

@Right_in_Virginia

How many guns do you own?

You’ve been avoiding that question, and that’s interesting.

I’ll tell you what I’d do. If somebody broke into my house and killed my dog, I’d shoot that bleep, reload, and shoot him again. I’d reload and shoot him again even if he was already dead.

That’s my reaction to somebody who deliberately comes into my home and kills something I love.

Now scale that up.

Israel wasn’t responding to a hypothetical threat. On October 7, Hamas and other terrorists murdered roughly 1,200 people and abducted 251 others. Proportionally, that’s nearly 41,000 Americans killed in a single attack.

So when you ask what rules should restrict Israel’s response, I’m asking you to apply the same principle to yourself.

If someone attacks your home, how much restraint do you think you’re entitled to demand from yourself while you’re fighting back?

And if you’re comfortable preparing for a threat that hasn’t happened, why are you demanding that Israel accept less defensive capability after the threat actually materialized?

So again:

How many guns do you own?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Whose got the nukes and wants to attack Israel?  Now that Iran's about done (at least for a while) I'm not seeing the nuclear threat against Israel.  What am I missing?

Please, correct me if I've got this wrong --- but, didn't the PLO's promise to erase Israel from the earth come in the July 1968 Palestine National Charter --- 13 months after the Six Day War and the further displacement of Palestinians and occupation?  --- And then as part of the Oslo Accords peace process, the Palestine National Council voted in April 1996 and again in 1998 to formally nullify and revoke the clauses that called for Israel's destruction?

Hamas' founding charter in 1988 {from the belly of the Gaza occupation) stated in its preamble and articles a commitment to the destruction of Israel through jihad.  In 2017 Hamas accepted a Palestinian state within 1967 borders --- but withheld explicitly revoking the 1988 text.

Is it possible this remaining reference to the destruction of Israel fades as Israel's control, occupation and mowing the grass fades? ---- Or is the continuation of this war written in stone?

You're asking whether this war is “written in stone,” but you're still avoiding the questions I originally asked you.

How do you know that Israel no longer needs defensive weapons?

How do you know that Israel's sovereign right to defend itself disappears simply because you believe its control or occupation should end?

And now you're bringing Iran's nuclear capability into the discussion.

“Whose got the nukes and wants to attack Israel?”

If you're talking about Iran, you're changing the subject. Israel's need for defensive weapons does not depend upon Iran possessing a nuclear weapon. Rockets, missiles, drones, terrorism and armed organizations operating on or near Israel's borders don't magically cease to exist because Iran's nuclear program has been damaged.

And even the nuclear question isn't as settled as you're presenting it. The IAEA has not been able to verify the status or location of Iran's remaining enriched-uranium stockpile since the attacks on its nuclear facilities.

But that's beside the larger point.

You point to the PLO. Fine. Then let's deal with the PLO honestly. The 1968 Palestinian National Charter contained provisions rejecting Israel's existence and calling for armed struggle. The Oslo process eventually produced Palestinian recognition of Israel and the removal of those provisions. That was an actual political change in the PLO's stated position.

Hamas is not the PLO.

The 1988 Hamas charter explicitly called for jihad against Israel and the elimination of the Jewish state. In 2017 Hamas issued a political document accepting a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but it did not recognize Israel and did not formally revoke the 1988 charter.

So here's the question you haven't answered:

**What has Hamas actually done that demonstrates that its commitment to the destruction of Israel is fading?**

Not what you hope will happen.

Not what you think might happen if Israel changes its policies.

What has Hamas actually done?

And if your answer is that Israeli control, occupation, or “mowing the grass” is what prevents that commitment from fading, then explain the mechanism. Why does the responsibility for abandoning Hamas's stated objective fall on Israel rather than on Hamas?

You asked whether the continuation of this war is written in stone.

I don't believe anyone can know that.

But you haven't established that Israeli defensive action is what makes it inevitable, and you haven't established that removing Israeli control will cause Hamas's stated objective to disappear.

And frankly, I think your Islamist-apologist role here is about to end, because I'm going to keep asking the questions.

I'd appreciate it if you would start answering them.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You're comparing an Israeli politician advocating sovereignty with what happened on October 7.

I'm doing no such thing.  I simply pointed out what you didn't know:  that both Hamas and the Israelis expressed a desire to control the territory from the River to the Sea and each had a similar slogan to rally their base --- and both slogans have been used for decades. 

Hamas-led terrorists crossed the border and went after civilians .... And you're answering all of that with, “But Smotrich and Ben-Gvir want Israeli sovereignty from the river to the sea.

First:  research Smotrich and Ben-Gvir and their plans for ethnic cleansing before you dismiss them as irrelevant.   And then revisit the brief exchange about the river to the sea that you began  🔽  and stop twisting my words.

What you’re missing is that it’s not over yet ...You’re missing the fact that they’re still singing from the river to the sea.

No, I'm not.  While it's no longer a favorite of the Palestinians, it has not been formally erased.

But, then it's also still a founding principle of Likud:   "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".  And, both the Minister of Finance: Bezalel Smotrich (Religious Zionist Party) and the Minister of National Security: Itamar Ben-Gvir (Otzma Yehudit) are proudly and actively breathing new life into the slogan.

Is it time for an honest discussion about moral ambiguities and this endless war?

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

Of course there are rules governing war. But those rules don’t begin on October 8.

Gaza had been launching rockets at Israeli civilians for years.

Yes, they have --- although until the last time they were sending off more projectiles and flaming balloons than weapons.  --- But, I digress. ---  Do 57 years trapped in an open air prison factor into the rampage from Gaza, or is it immaterial to Oct 7?

Then, on October 7, Hamas and other armed groups crossed into Israel, deliberately attacked civilians, murdered roughly 1,200 people, abducted 251 and took them into Gaza.

Without question, this was a heinous, brutal assault leaving behind wounds that will never heal.

In your mind's eye, did this rage fueled attack happen out of the blue, without reason?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Yes, they have --- although until the last time they were sending off more projectiles and flaming balloons than weapons.  --- But, I digress. ---  Do 67 years trapped in an open air prison factor into the rampage from Gaza, or is it immaterial to Oct 7?


Without question, this was a heinous, brutal assault leaving behind wounds that will never heal.

In your mind's eye, did this rage fueled attack happen out of the blue, without reason?

No. You don’t get to answer questions with questions.

Answer my questions first.

How many weapons do you own?

[Right_in_Virginia]

Is it time for an honest discussion about moral ambiguities and this endless war?

@Luis Gonzalez

[Hoodat]

No. You don’t get to answer questions with questions.

Answer my questions first.

How many weapons do you own?

Good luck with that, @Luis Gonzalez

[Hoodat]

Is it time for an honest discussion about moral ambiguities and this endless war?

Honest?  From you?

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

How many guns do you own?  You’ve been avoiding that question, and that’s interesting.

It's irrelevant.    You go on to the question I think you're really asking me --- which is closer to:  "how many people would you kill"? 🔽

I’ll tell you what I’d do. If somebody broke into my house and killed my dog, I’d shoot that bleep, reload, and shoot him again. I’d reload and shoot him again even if he was already dead. That’s my reaction to somebody who deliberately comes into my home and kills something I love.

So when you ask what rules should restrict Israel’s response, I’m asking you to apply the same principle to yourself.  If someone attacks your home, how much restraint do you think you’re entitled to demand from yourself while you’re fighting back?

Well, I've not really thought about this.  But, I suppose I could be nearly consumed by a lust for revenge --- and the need to spread the same anger, fear and pain overwhelming me.

So, I suppose I might react as you would and s*oot back until I ran out of bullets.  And, if that didn't satiate me, I might get more bullets and s*oot the perp's wife and children, his parents, neighbors, doctors, dentist, the members of his car pool, his high school class, and all their pets, ---- if still not relieved of my pain I might burn his car, and his house and every house in his neighborhood, city and state until any and every thing that ever touched the perp's life or shared oxygen with him was part of a smouldering heap of death and destruction.

But, more than anything, I hope someone who cared and loved me would stop me before I destroyed the very best of me.


@Luis Gonzalez

[Luis Gonzalez]

It's irrelevant.    You go on to the question I think you're really asking me --- which is closer to:  "how many people would you kill"? 🔽

So, on top of every other talent you think you posses, you think you can read minds? Ninety percent of what you've posted here as "argument" is irrelevant to the topic.

Why don't you just answer the question. What are you afraid of?

How many guns do you own?

So, I suppose I might react as you would and s*oot back until I ran out of bullets.  And, if that didn't satiate me, I might get more bullets and s*oot the perp's wife and children, his parents, neighbors, doctors, dentist, the members of his car pool, his high school class, and all their pets, ---- if still not relieved of my pain I might burn his car, and his house and every house in his neighborhood, city and state until any and every thing that ever touched the perp's life or shared oxygen with him was part of a smouldering heap of death and destruction.

But, more than anything, I hope someone who cared and loved me would stop me before I destroyed the very best of me.

You were doing OK there, right up until your hormones kicked in. If as a parent, I watched my daughter's body being dragged around in the back of a pick up truck, soiled from being brutally raped dozens of times, so that people in the streets could spit on her, I think the best of me would have died right there.

You, along with the 9 women in the Lindsay Clancy jury, are living proof of why women should NEVER be POTUS.

We're done.

[Luis Gonzalez]

@Luis Gonzalez

With an honest individual... sure.

On this subject, that individual is not you.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You were doing OK there, right up until your hormones kicked in.   You, along with the 9 women in the Lindsay Clancy jury, are living proof of why women should NEVER be POTUS.

We're done.

Of course we are --- I hit a nerve showing the realities of Israel's ongoing military response to Oct 7 for which you have no reasonable or moral argument.

It's been a pleasure.   

I'll leave you with our last exchange --- 🔽

@Right_in_Virginia

How many guns do you own?  You’ve been avoiding that question, and that’s interesting.

It's irrelevant.    You go on to the question I think you're really asking me --- which is closer to:  "how many people would you kill"? 🔽

I'll tell you what I’d do. If somebody broke into my house and killed my dog, I’d shoot that bleep, reload, and shoot him again. I’d reload and shoot him again even if he was already dead. That’s my reaction to somebody who deliberately comes into my home and kills something I love.

So when you ask what rules should restrict Israel’s response, I’m asking you to apply the same principle to yourself.  If someone attacks your home, how much restraint do you think you’re entitled to demand from yourself while you’re fighting back?

Well, I've not really thought about this.  But, I suppose I could be nearly consumed by a lust for revenge --- and the need to spread the same anger, fear and pain overwhelming me.

So, I suppose I might react as you would and s*oot back until I ran out of bullets.  And, if that didn't satiate me, I might get more bullets and s*oot the perp's wife and children, his parents, neighbors, doctors, dentist, the members of his car pool, his high school class, and all their pets, ---- if still not relieved of my pain I might burn his car, and his house and every house in his neighborhood, city and state until any and every thing that ever touched the perp's life or shared oxygen with him was part of a smouldering heap of death and destruction.

But, more than anything, I hope someone who cared and loved me would stop me before I destroyed the very best of me.


@Luis Gonzalez

[Cyber Liberty]

@Luis Gonzalez This is her pattern:  She refuses to answer direct questions, opting instead to answer like a politician...non answers.  Eventually she either goes on their Ignore list, or more commonly she puts them on hers. 

As a long-term result, she ends up talking to herself and probably her cats.

[DCPatriot]

@Luis Gonzalez This is her pattern:  She refuses to answer direct questions, opting instead to answer like a politician...non answers.  Eventually she either goes on their Ignore list, or more commonly she puts them on hers. 

As a long-term result, she ends up talking to herself and probably her cats.

Tsk..tsk...you've got a lot of nerve there, Xxxx.

@Right_in_Virginia is a bleeping treasure here.  You've admitted as much many times.

She's allowed to have an opposing view.  Afterall, she likes it here...right @mystery-ak ??  {wink wink}

I've enjoyed the banter between @Luis Gonzalez and her immensely.

Sure beats the hell out of all the reposted X/Twitter posts on the forum all damned day...as if we don't have access to X??? We all follow the same people it seems...

[Cyber Liberty]

Tsk..tsk...you've got a lot of nerve there, Xxxx.

@Right_in_Virginia is a bleeping treasure here.  You've admitted as much many times.

She's allowed to have an opposing view.  Afterall, she likes it here...right @mystery-ak ??  {wink wink}

I've enjoyed the banter between @Luis Gonzalez and her immensely.

Sure beats the hell out of all the reposted X/Twitter posts on the forum all damned day...as if we don't have access to X??? We all follow the same people it seems...

I've found her a lot less of a treasure since she decided to put me on Ignore, and therefore never responds unless she has a gripe.  She's rather proud of that.

[DCPatriot]

I've found her a lot less of a treasure since she decided to put me on Ignore, and therefore never responds unless she has a gripe.  She's rather proud of that.

You've whined about her ignoring you about a dozen times.

Changing 'hats' here seems to be too much for you sometimes.  It's actually nobody's business who has who on "ignore".

IMO, of course. 

[Cyber Liberty]

You've whined about her ignoring you about a dozen times.

Changing 'hats' here seems to be too much for you sometimes.  It's actually nobody's business who has who on "ignore".

IMO, of course. 

Whatevs.  My observations on her debating style stand.  If I really need to communicate with her I can PM.  Members can't ignore PMs from Admins, and I've never felt the need to kick that door.  It's clearly not that big of a deal to me.   

[Luis Gonzalez]

Of course we are --- I hit a nerve showing the realities of Israel's ongoing military response to Oct 7 for which you have no reasonable or moral argument.

It's been a pleasure.   

I'll leave you with our last exchange --- 🔽

Hit a nerve?

I was just checking to see if the things said about you were real. They are, and I have no use for anyone that takes the side you are taking on the Israel issue.

That’s personal to me. Don’t bother replying.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Of course we are --- I hit a nerve showing the realities of Israel's ongoing military response to Oct 7 for which you have no reasonable or moral argument.

It's been a pleasure.   

I'll leave you with our last exchange --- 🔽

You’ve soiled the word “moral” by associating it with your Islamist apologist bullshit. I have no time for you.

You should have your eyes locked open and be forced to watch the 10/7 videos. A little Clockwirk Orange on you. THEN I’ll give you the right to talk about “moral argument” to defend animals.

Please, don’t insult me(or the universes’) intelligence by claiming any level of moral standing for your Islamists.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Whatevs.  My observations on her debating style stand.  If I really need to communicate with her I can PM.  Members can't ignore PMs from Admins, and I've never felt the need to kick that door.  It's clearly not that big of a deal to me.   

I normally found her to be a reasonably good poster on other issues.

This is just a future chapter in my Mrs. Cleaver series.

[Hoodat]

You’ve soiled the word “moral” by associating it with your Islamist apologist bullshit. I have no time for you.

Correctamundo.  Key word: ‘bullshit’

Her ‘morality’ rests on a dungheap of lies.