ISRAEL IS PREPARING TO SHOW THE WORLD FOOTAGE OF THE OCTOBER 7 MASSACRE.

[mystery-ak]

https://twitter.com/sabra_the/status/2102484201253884133

[libertybele]

Good.  It keeps things in perspective and with time passing, the event is easy to brush aside.

[mystery-ak]

https://twitter.com/VividProwess/status/2102741142160777546

[Luis Gonzalez]

There should be footage of the atrocities playing on massive screens across from every single "Free 'Palestine'" protest anywhere. While we're at it, show some footage of LGBTQFWP people being thrown off rooftops in Tehran.

[libertybele]

https://twitter.com/VividProwess/status/2102741142160777546

Absolutely, the world and many in this country have lost their moral compass.  What many of us deem as immoral, many in the world don't see it that way.

Hatred and evil continues to prevail.

[andy58-in-nh]

There should be footage of the atrocities playing on massive screens across from every single "Free 'Palestine'" protest anywhere. While we're at it, show some footage of LGBTQFWP people being thrown off rooftops in Tehran.

I have seen much of the visual evidence of the atrocities committed that day, and it is horrifying and sickening beyond mere words.
 
"Free Palestine" supporters ought to see it.

But here is the problem: they deny that it is real. 

On multiple occasions, I have engaged with "Free Palestine" and Hamas supporters about what happened that day. To a person, they denied that it actually happened, or that the violence was greatly exaggerated and/or necessitated by Israel's "brutal" treatment of the Palestinians. 

They claim that it is Israeli propaganda. Or that it is computer-generated, a Mossad AI fabrication. 

I have offered to show them the videos myself, but I was accused of being an Israeli agent, or a Zionist. Or something. 

The point is that someone who has been indoctrinated by hatred will tend to remain indoctrinated by hatred. A mind, once poisoned so deeply, cannot easily recover.

I expect some people can be turned away from darkness and back to reason, but it will not be easy.

Let's still try.

[libertybele]

I have seen much of the visual evidence of the atrocities committed that day, and it is horrifying and sickening beyond mere words.
 
"Free Palestine" supporters ought to see it.

But here is the problem: they deny that it is real. 

On multiple occasions, I have engaged with "Free Palestine" and Hamas supporters about what happened that day. To a person, they denied that it actually happened, or that the violence was greatly exaggerated and/or necessitated by Israel's "brutal" treatment of the Palestinians. 

They claim that it is Israeli propaganda. Or that it is computer-generated, a Mossad AI fabrication. 

I have offered to show them the videos myself, but I was accused of being an Israeli agent, or a Zionist. Or something. 

The point is that someone who has been indoctrinated by hatred will tend to remain indoctrinated by hatred. A mind, once poisoned so deeply, cannot easily recover.

I expect some people can be turned away from darkness and back to reason, but it will not be easy.

Let's still try.

    

[Right_in_Virginia]

Time passes. Denials, distortions of events, and attempts to rewrite the story of October 7 emerge.

Few have denied what happened on Oct 7 ---- and Israel has been given a universal free rein and Western military assistance to avenge the horror.

The questions arising nearly 3 years later in parliaments and street demonstrations around the world revolve around when is enough enough?  Will the 75,000 killed in military strikes (nearly all civilians with more bodies still trapped under rubble), 174,447 civilians injured in military strikes with 102,000 buildings destroyed --- demolishing 330,000 homes --- sufficiently satisfy the need for the righteous revenge of the savage killing of 1,200 innocents on Oct 7, 2023?

Or will this planned Israeli release be the opening volley in a feud of the horror videos and reinforce accusations of ethnic cleansing and war crimes?

[Hoodat]

.  .  .  sufficiently satisfy the need for the righteous revenge of the savage killing .  .  .

This isn't about "revenge".  This is about accountability.  Your premise is false.

[Right_in_Virginia]

This isn't about "revenge".  This is about accountability.  Your premise is false.

75,000 dead, 174,447 injured and 330,000 homes demolished kinda feels like righteous revenge.  Capture, trial, verdict and punishment feel more like accountability 

[Hoodat]

Feelings aren’t facts.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Feelings aren’t facts.

Okay ... 75,000 dead, 174,447 injured and 330,000 homes demolished is righteous revenge.  Capture, trial, verdict and punishment is accountability 

[libertybele]

Few have denied what happened on Oct 7 ---- and Israel has been given a universal free rein and Western military assistance to avenge the horror.

The questions arising nearly 3 years later in parliaments and street demonstrations around the world revolve around when is enough enough?  Will the 75,000 killed in military strikes (nearly all civilians with more bodies still trapped under rubble), 174,447 civilians injured in military strikes with 102,000 buildings destroyed --- demolishing 330,000 homes --- sufficiently satisfy the need for the righteous revenge of the savage killing of 1,200 innocents on Oct 7, 2023?

Or will this planned Israeli release be the opening volley in a feud of the horror videos and reinforced accusations of ethnic cleansing and war crimes?

Pro-Palestenian groups may have not denied what happened but have cheered for what happened.  Bibi reminding the world that the hatred for Israel and the Jewish community is not unwarranted.

His continued efforts to ensure that another October 7 is not inflicted upon Israel again is also warranted.  That's not revenge; that's survival.

[Cyber Liberty]

Few have denied what happened on Oct 7 ---- and Israel has been given a universal free rein and Western military assistance to avenge the horror.

The questions arising nearly 3 years later in parliaments and street demonstrations around the world revolve around when is enough enough?  Will the 75,000 killed in military strikes (nearly all civilians with more bodies still trapped under rubble), 174,447 civilians injured in military strikes with 102,000 buildings destroyed --- demolishing 330,000 homes --- sufficiently satisfy the need for the righteous revenge of the savage killing of 1,200 innocents on Oct 7, 2023?

Or will this planned Israeli release be the opening volley in a feud of the horror videos and reinforced accusations of ethnic cleansing and war crimes?

Sorry, your opinion of October 7th is sus, because of your continuous attacking of the one who has stood forward to stop the bleeding, Bibi Netanyahu.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Bibi reminding the world that the hatred for Israel and the Jewish community is not unwarranted.

It's a different world.  Today the hate you reference is considered a two-way street by an international plurality.

[Right_in_Virginia]

His ( Netanyahu's) continued efforts to ensure that another October 7 is not inflicted upon Israel again is also warranted.  That's not revenge; that's survival.

I agree it's vitally important to ensure another Oct 7 doesn't happen.  But, this will take more than one ton bombs.  It will also take a non-partisan Independent State Commission of Inquiry into the lead-up to the attack --- and Netanyahu has vetoed this.  The Prime Minister wants a government controlled inquiry where he sets the agenda and approves who testifies.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I agree it's vitally important to ensure another Oct 7 doesn't happen.  But, this will take more than one ton bombs.  It will also take a non-partisan Independent State Commission of Inquiry into the lead-up to the attack --- and Netanyahu has vetoed this.  The Prime Minister wants a government controlled inquiry where he sets the agenda and approves who testifies.

… while there’s an ongoing war.

What purpose does any of that serve when you’re at war for your very existence?

Congressional investigations of how a war is being conducted? Assume is being conducted with winning it in mind. What other mindset could possibly exist?

[Right_in_Virginia]

What purpose does any of that serve when you’re at war for your very existence?

It would seem when a country claiming to be under a threat to its existence is a nuclear armed, advanced military fortress AND a political and military protectorate of the world's economic and military super power --- the "existential threat" should no longer pass the sniff test.

But, it continues to work.   

Hopefully, Israel quickly uncovers the misguided strategic gamesmanship that blew up on Oct 7 and makes sure it's dismantled --- Then integrates into the neighborhood while Trump's still in the Oval Office to help.

[berdie]

"integrates into the neighborhood."

You are kidding...right?

[Right_in_Virginia]

"integrates into the neighborhood."

You are kidding...right?

No, I'm really not kidding.  I think the time is right @berdie ... The neighborhood's war weary, the Gulf States, including SA,  are ready to expand alliances with Israel through Trump and the Abraham Accords --- they're helping to disarm Hamas and will be part of the management of Gaza without Hamas and help fund its rebuilding.

These players are also supporting Lebanon in their efforts to neuter Hezbollah.

The region is tired of 80 years of turmoil and is gearing up for an economic revival and commerce opportunities rather than war.  I wish Netanyahu and his team would honestly take this opportunity.

[Luis Gonzalez]

It would seem when a country claiming to be under a threat to its existence is a nuclear armed, advanced military fortress AND a political and military protectorate of the world's economic and military super power --- the "existential threat" should no longer pass the sniff test.

But, it continues to work.   

Hopefully, Israel quickly uncovers the misguided strategic gamesmanship that blew up on Oct 7 and makes sure it's dismantled --- Then integrates into the neighborhood while Trump's still in the Oval Office to help.

Are you discussing Israel?

You think having nukes means that others can’t nuke you? I want to know how you know that Israel requires no more defensive weapons or it's not possessive of the sovereign right to defend itself against people who are sworn to erase them from Earth.

How many guns do you own?

[Right_in_Virginia]

You think having nukes means that others can’t nuke you?

Whose got the nukes and wants to attack Israel?  Now that Iran's about done (at least for a while) I'm not seeing the nuclear threat against Israel.  What am I missing?

I want to know how you know that Israel requires no more defensive weapons or it's not possessive of the sovereign right to defend itself against people who are sworn to erase them from Earth.

Please, correct me if I've got this wrong --- but, didn't the PLO's promise to erase Israel from the earth come in the July 1968 Palestine National Charter --- 13 months after the Six Day War and the further displacement of Palestinians and occupation?  --- And then as part of the Oslo Accords peace process, the Palestine National Council voted in April 1996 and again in 1998 to formally nullify and revoke the clauses that called for Israel's destruction?

Hamas' founding charter in 1988 {from the belly of the Gaza occupation) stated in its preamble and articles a commitment to the destruction of Israel through jihad.  In 2017 Hamas accepted a Palestinian state within 1967 borders --- but withheld explicitly revoking the 1988 text.

Is it possible this remaining reference to the destruction of Israel fades as Israel's control, occupation and mowing the grass fades? ---- Or is the continuation of this war written in stone?

[Smokin Joe]

I have seen much of the visual evidence of the atrocities committed that day, and it is horrifying and sickening beyond mere words.
 
"Free Palestine" supporters ought to see it.

But here is the problem: they deny that it is real. 

On multiple occasions, I have engaged with "Free Palestine" and Hamas supporters about what happened that day. To a person, they denied that it actually happened, or that the violence was greatly exaggerated and/or necessitated by Israel's "brutal" treatment of the Palestinians. 

They claim that it is Israeli propaganda. Or that it is computer-generated, a Mossad AI fabrication. 

I have offered to show them the videos myself, but I was accused of being an Israeli agent, or a Zionist. Or something. 

The point is that someone who has been indoctrinated by hatred will tend to remain indoctrinated by hatred. A mind, once poisoned so deeply, cannot easily recover.

I expect some people can be turned away from darkness and back to reason, but it will not be easy.

Let's still try.

It is like deprogramming a cult member.
They don't want to believe, some refuse to believe, some can't handle believing that the cult was wrong.
Without solid moral metrics, a fixed set of values, it's easy enough for them to get sucked in, and without it, they will not get out.
This is one of the many effects of moral relativism.
Envy, selfishness, hatred for perceived wrongs (often due to a a distortion of the truth or outright fabrication) contribute to the vulnerability.
It is a lot to be able to admit they have been fooled, played, and used to support evil.

[Smokin Joe]

75,000 dead, 174,447 injured and 330,000 homes demolished kinda feels like righteous revenge.  Capture, trial, verdict and punishment feel more like accountability 

Maybe there would have been fewer civilian deaths if Hamas hadn't tunneled under schools, neighborhoods, and hospitals, to name a few.

Then, too, there was no outrage from Gazans over the attacks, more like celebration.
If they supported it, they might as well have been there raping babies and butchering people along with the rest of them.

It reminds me of the Muslims cheering 9/11.

[Smokin Joe]

It's a different world.  Today the hate you reference is considered a two-way street by an international plurality.

Call it what you will, but do what was done to their young women to my daughter/granddaughter/great granddaughter (not to mention the men), and Hell is coming with firebrands. Support it, and you are just as evil in my eyes.
 
I could not give a damn what the world thinks.

That evil did not exist in a vacuum, it was nurtured and supported by a broad base, and those who did nothing to stop it are as equally guilty in my eyes as those who perpetrated it directly.

[Smokin Joe]

It would seem when a country claiming to be under a threat to its existence is a nuclear armed, advanced military fortress AND a political and military protectorate of the world's economic and military super power --- the "existential threat" should no longer pass the sniff test.

But, it continues to work.   

Hopefully, Israel quickly uncovers the misguided strategic gamesmanship that blew up on Oct 7 and makes sure it's dismantled --- Then integrates into the neighborhood while Trump's still in the Oval Office to help.

Being able to shoot does not make you bulletproof.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Maybe there would have been fewer civilian deaths if Hamas hadn't tunneled under schools, neighborhoods, and hospitals, to name a few.

No doubt. ---  But, couldn't knowingly target bombing civilian women, children, doctors, nurses be considered a war crime by some?

During the grass mowing in 2014, Israel warned Gazan civilians in real time of a coming attack using direct phone calls, text messages, dropped paper leaflets, and "roof knocking" (firing a small, non-explosive warning projectile on a roof).   Do you know why the IDF stopped these warnings?

[Right_in_Virginia]

Being able to shoot does not make you bulletproof.

But, does having an army, an air force, a vastly superior arsenal of offensive weapons and defensive equipment --- backed up by Israeli nuclear capabilities and the full force of the U.S. military weaken Israel's claim it is living under an existential threat --- at all?

[Hoodat]

Okay ... 75,000 dead, 174,447 injured and 330,000 homes demolished is righteous revenge.  Capture, trial, verdict and punishment is accountability

Repeating the claim does not make it true. 
And the quantification of deaths and damage does not prove motive.

Consider the bombing of Hiroshima.  Massive deaths and damage.  Yet it wasn’t done for revenge.  It was done to end the war - to save American lives.  If it had been about revenge, we would have dropped two or more on one day and kept going.


Same for Israel.  If revenge was the motive, there would no longer be a Gaza.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Whose got the nukes and wants to attack Israel?  Now that Iran's about done (at least for a while) I'm not seeing the nuclear threat against Israel.  What am I missing?

Please, correct me if I've got this wrong --- but, didn't the PLO's promise to erase Israel from the earth come in the July 1968 Palestine National Charter --- 13 months after the Six Day War and the further displacement of Palestinians and occupation?  --- And then as part of the Oslo Accords peace process, the Palestine National Council voted in April 1996 and again in 1998 to formally nullify and revoke the clauses that called for Israel's destruction?

Hamas' founding charter in 1988 {from the belly of the Gaza occupation) stated in its preamble and articles a commitment to the destruction of Israel through jihad.  In 2017 Hamas accepted a Palestinian state within 1967 borders --- but withheld explicitly revoking the 1988 text.

Is it possible this remaining reference to the destruction of Israel fades as Israel's control, occupation and mowing the grass fades? ---- Or is the continuation of this war written in stone?

What you’re missing is that it’s not over yet. You’re missing the fact that nobody has said OK OK OK we don’t want to destroy you any longer. You’re missing the fact that they’re still singing from the river to the sea. You’re missing the fact that no matter how secure you are in your own home you have a right to make yourself even more secure as this Israel.

So for a minute let’s say that you are Israel. Your house and your home is Israel, and your family are the people of Israel.

Next let’s posit that all your neighbors, and all their neighbors, have publicly stated that Israel (your house, your family) have no right to exist. They demonstrate on the streets outside everywhere. They carry signs calling for the extermination of you, your family and your home.

So in light of all that, as a good parent/head of State, you decide to buy a couple of guns to defend yourself with, and people who have zero notion of what it feels like to live every day of your life with the real possibility of a missile (or many missiles) dropping on your house with little or no warning, start labeling you things because you’re arming yourself.

You’d tell them tk go bleep themselves and mind their own damned business, wouldn’t you?

[Cyber Liberty]

What you’re missing is that it’s not over yet. You’re missing the fact that nobody has said OK OK OK we don’t want to destroy you any longer. You’re missing the fact that they’re still singing from the river to the sea. You’re missing the fact that no matter how secure you are in your own home you have a right to make yourself even more secure as this Israel.

So for a minute let’s say that you are Israel. Your house and your home is Israel, and your family are the people of Israel.

Next let’s posit that all your neighbors, and all their neighbors, have publicly stated that Israel (your house, your family) have no right to exist. They demonstrate on the streets outside everywhere. They carry signs calling for the extermination of you, your family and your home.

So in light of all that, as a good parent/head of State, you decide to buy a couple of guns to defend yourself with, and people who have zero notion of what it feels like to live every day of your life with the real possibility of a missile (or many missiles) dropping on your house with little or no warning, start labeling you things because you’re arming yourself.

You’d tell them tk go bleep themselves and mind their own damned business, wouldn’t you?

I'm not convinced she would.

[the OlLine Rebel]

https://twitter.com/VividProwess/status/2102741142160777546

Of course it has.

Just a few months after 9/11, an ATROCITY unmatched in scale and scope, Dem commies again began handwringing about whether Moslems in the US were being bullied, and further welcomed MANY MORE in.

Why would we expect any better judgment here?

[the OlLine Rebel]

Few have denied what happened on Oct 7 ---- and Israel has been given a universal free rein and Western military assistance to avenge the horror.

The questions arising nearly 3 years later in parliaments and street demonstrations around the world revolve around when is enough enough?  Will the 75,000 killed in military strikes (nearly all civilians with more bodies still trapped under rubble), 174,447 civilians injured in military strikes with 102,000 buildings destroyed --- demolishing 330,000 homes --- sufficiently satisfy the need for the righteous revenge of the savage killing of 1,200 innocents on Oct 7, 2023?

Or will this planned Israeli release be the opening volley in a feud of the horror videos and reinforce accusations of ethnic cleansing and war crimes?

Sure.

But, you act as if they only started questioning, say, after a year of bombings.

No, these Moslem and communist traitors immediately started griping.  Immediately complaining about retaliation (which is justified, BTW).

[DCPatriot]

I just watched Season 5 of FAUDA, where on latter episodes, viewers are warned about screen images of the October 7th attack. (Netflix)

It's heartbreaking!     

[Luis Gonzalez]

No doubt. ---  But, couldn't knowingly target bombing civilian women, children, doctors, nurses be considered a war crime by some?

During the grass mowing in 2014, Israel warned Gazan civilians in real time of a coming attack using direct phone calls, text messages, dropped paper leaflets, and "roof knocking" (firing a small, non-explosive warning projectile on a roof).   Do you know why the IDF stopped these warnings?

Let me go on with my last post.

Now, your neighbors get a little high and drunk one day, and they break into your property. They kill your dogs and rape your daughter. After that, they shove a machine gun into her bleeding anus and pull the trigger. I’ve seen some of the footage as well. What’s left of her is left for the dogs to eat.

I’m gonna kill the whole bleep neighborhood after that, and I’d be real suspicious about the motivations of those accusing me of overreacting.

Once again… how many guns do you own?

[Luis Gonzalez]

I just watched Season 5 of FAUDA, where on latter episodes, viewers are warned about screen images of the October 7th attack. (Netflix)

It's heartbreaking!     

It is.

[Luis Gonzalez]

But, does having an army, an air force, a vastly superior arsenal of offensive weapons and defensive equipment --- backed up by Israeli nuclear capabilities and the full force of the U.S. military weaken Israel's claim it is living under an existential threat --- at all?

Well, that depends.

Are you answering the question from the point of view of an individual sitting in the comfort of an American home, or are you the relatives of the infant that seen in some terrorists’ video being thrown into a microwave on October 7?

Perspective is incredibly important in discussing this issue don’t you think?

[Right_in_Virginia]

What you’re missing is that it’s not over yet. You’re missing the fact that nobody has said OK OK OK we don’t want to destroy you any longer.

The PLO did --- twice.  It can be done ---- takes a serious, coordinated effort, but this proves it can be done.

You’re missing the fact that they’re still singing from the river to the sea.

No, I'm not.  While it's no longer a favorite of the Palestinians, it has not been formally erased.

But, then it's also still a founding principle of Likud:   "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".  And, both the Minister of Finance: Bezalel Smotrich (Religious Zionist Party) and the Minister of National Security: Itamar Ben-Gvir (Otzma Yehudit) are proudly and actively breathing new life into the slogan.

You’re missing the fact that no matter how secure you are in your own home you have a right to make yourself even more secure as this Israel.

No, I'm not missing that.  Every nation does it --- If memory serves, updating military arsenals and planes and ships helps the global economy go round. 

But, are there not rules about "mowing the grass", crossing borders at will to bomb weapons stored by sovereign nations, killing " terrorists" without capture, trial and conviction, and leaving more than 75,000 civilians dead, 174,447 injured civilians and 330,000 homes destroyed by military strikes in a three year battle of a 59 year war?  ---- Or, am I wrong and there are no rules governing any of this?

Next let’s posit that all your neighbors, and all their neighbors, have publicly stated that Israel (your house, your family) have no right to exist. They demonstrate on the streets outside everywhere. They carry signs calling for the extermination of you, your family and your home.

Keep an eye on that, but not your focus --- or you'll miss the greater neighborhood as it is today.  You'll miss the Arab states working on your behalf to make a tangible peace in Gaza, to dismantle and disarm Hamas, to work with the Lebanese government and neuter Hezbollah, to assist with military action against a common enemy, eliminating your concern of retaliation. 

Move your gaze to the front windshield and notice the readiness of your neighbors to establish new relationships with you and meet you in the arena of commerce, not on the battlefield.

[Cyber Liberty]

The PLO lied if they ever said they don't want to fight.  Their foot soldiers never stopped their terrorist attacks.

[berdie]

No, I'm really not kidding.  I think the time is right @berdie ... The neighborhood's war weary, the Gulf States, including SA,  are ready to expand alliances with Israel through Trump and the Abraham Accords --- they're helping to disarm Hamas and will be part of the management of Gaza without Hamas and help fund its rebuilding.

These players are also supporting Lebanon in their efforts to neuter Hezbollah.

The region is tired of 80 years of turmoil and is gearing up for an economic revival and commerce opportunities rather than war.  I wish Netanyahu and his team would honestly take this opportunity.

I hope all the efforts for peace that you mention are successful @Right_in_Virginia . Peace in the area would be a wonderful thing.

I am afraid, though, you may have forgotten who initiated this last bit of warfare on Oct 7.  It wasn't Israel. They have every right to defend their country and people. Much like the US didn't just shrug and say "oh well" after Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

Maybe Hamas should take this opportunity.

[Luis Gonzalez]

The PLO did --- twice.  It can be done ---- takes a serious, coordinated effort, but this proves it can be done.

Im going to take these one at a time.

No. That’s rewriting history pretty aggressively.

The PLO did not “make peace with Israel twice.” It entered into agreements with Israel, most notably the Oslo Accords in 1993 and the Oslo II agreement in 1995. Those agreements created mutual recognition and a framework for negotiations. They did not produce a final peace treaty, and the process ultimately failed to deliver the promised permanent settlement.

So saying “it can be done” because the PLO “did it twice” is putting the conclusion into the premise. Agreements can be signed. Handshakes can be photographed. Documents can be witnessed. The hard question is whether both sides will actually honor the commitments and reach a durable settlement.

History doesn’t prove that peace was achieved twice. It proves that negotiations and agreements were attempted. That’s an important distinction.

[Luis Gonzalez]

P.S. There’s another rather important detail missing here: the violence against Israel didn’t stop when the PLO signed the Oslo agreements. Quite the opposite. Terrorist attacks continued throughout the Oslo period, and the Second Intifada eventually erupted. So if the argument is that “the PLO made peace twice,” the historical record doesn’t quite cooperate with that description.

[Luis Gonzalez]

No, I'm not.  While it's no longer a favorite of the Palestinians, it has not been formally erased.

But, then it's also still a founding principle of Likud:   "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".  And, both the Minister of Finance: Bezalel Smotrich (Religious Zionist Party) and the Minister of National Security: Itamar Ben-Gvir (Otzma Yehudit) are proudly and actively breathing new life into the slogan

If your argument is that both sides contain political movements that reject the other side’s territorial aspirations, then say that. But that comparison still does not make the two situations morally or historically equivalent. Only one side carried out the October 7 massacre, and only one side has conducted the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians that preceded it. Israeli politicians’ maximalist statements can be condemned without pretending they are the same thing as a sustained campaign of terrorism against civilians. That’s an entirely different argument from telling me that the Palestinian “river to the sea” problem has effectively disappeared.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I am afraid, though, you may have forgotten who initiated this last bit of warfare on Oct 7.  It wasn't Israel. They have every right to defend their country and people. Much like the US didn't just shrug and say "oh well" after Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

Respectfully, neither Pearl Harbor nor 9/11 was another battle in a 57 year war --- so your analogy really doesn't fit.

[Right_in_Virginia]

If your argument is that both sides contain political movements that reject the other side’s territorial aspirations, then say that. But that comparison still does not make the two situations morally or historically equivalent.

Aren't they each claiming ownership of the same territory?  How is it different?

Only one side carried out the October 7 massacre.

Absolutely true ---

and only one side has conducted the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians that preceded it.

Yet, there are many members of Western Civilization who classify "mowing the grass" quite differently than I suspect you do.

Israeli politicians’ maximalist statements can be condemned without pretending they are the same thing as a sustained campaign of terrorism against civilians.

Why do you omit 57 years of captivity and military control from these discussions?

That’s an entirely different argument from telling me that the Palestinian “river to the sea” problem has effectively disappeared.

I never said that .... I said this 🔽

Please, correct me if I've got this wrong --- but, didn't the PLO's promise to erase Israel from the earth come in the July 1968 Palestine National Charter --- 13 months after the Six Day War and the further displacement of Palestinians and occupation?  --- And then as part of the Oslo Accords peace process, the Palestine National Council voted in April 1996 and again in 1998 to formally nullify and revoke the clauses that called for Israel's destruction?

Hamas' founding charter in 1988 {from the belly of the Gaza occupation) stated in its preamble and articles a commitment to the destruction of Israel through jihad.  In 2017 Hamas accepted a Palestinian state within 1967 borders --- but withheld explicitly revoking the 1988 text.

Is it possible this remaining reference to the destruction of Israel fades as Israel's control, occupation and mowing the grass fades? ---- Or is the continuation of this war written in stone?

[berdie]

Respectfully, neither Pearl Harbor nor 9/11 was another battle in a 57 year war --- so your analogy really doesn't fit.

Interesting. You ignored my first sentence regarding who initiated this. And decided that my second statement was not in line. I am of the opinion that whether it's a 57 year war or one newly started...retaliation is usually expected. jmho

[Right_in_Virginia]

Interesting. You ignored my first sentence regarding who initiated this. And decided that my second statement was not in line. I am of the opinion that whether it's a 57 year war or one newly started...retaliation is usually expected. jmho

Okay ... Thanks.

[Luis Gonzalez]

No, I'm not.  While it's no longer a favorite of the Palestinians, it has not been formally erased.

But, then it's also still a founding principle of Likud:   "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".  And, both the Minister of Finance: Bezalel Smotrich (Religious Zionist Party) and the Minister of National Security: Itamar Ben-Gvir (Otzma Yehudit) are proudly and actively breathing new life into the slogan.

Seriously? Let's stop hiding behind political platitudes.

You're comparing an Israeli politician advocating sovereignty with what happened on October 7.

Hamas-led terrorists crossed the border and went after civilians. They murdered families in their homes. They raped women. They dragged victims through the streets. They burned people alive. They murdered children. They forced parents to watch their children being tortured and killed. They abducted children and dragged them into Gaza as hostages. And among the atrocities reported that day was the horrifying account of a six-month-old baby girl being cooked in an oven while her parents were forced to watch.

And you're answering all of that with, “But Smotrich and Ben-Gvir want Israeli sovereignty from the river to the sea.”

Seriously?

A territorial claim is not rape. A political slogan is not murder. Advocating sovereignty is not invading a country, slaughtering civilians, torturing families, or dragging hostages across a border.

If you want to condemn Israeli politicians for what they say about sovereignty, condemn them.

But don't put their political rhetoric beside October 7 and pretend you've discovered some moral equivalence.

**One side is talking about who should control territory. The other side demonstrated what it was willing to do to human beings to achieve its political objective.**

Those aren't remotely the same thing.

Don't hide October 7 behind Smotrich.

[Hoodat]

Respectfully, neither Pearl Harbor nor 9/11 was another battle in a 57 year war --- so your analogy really doesn't fit.

You mean 78-year war.  That's how long Palestinians have refused to live in peace with the Jews, even while under Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian occupation.

[Luis Gonzalez]

@Right_in_Virginia

No, I'm not missing that.  Every nation does it --- If memory serves, updating military arsenals and planes and ships helps the global economy go round. 

But, are there not rules about "mowing the grass", crossing borders at will to bomb weapons stored by sovereign nations, killing " terrorists" without capture, trial and conviction, and leaving more than 75,000 civilians dead, 174,447 injured civilians and 330,000 homes destroyed by military strikes in a three year battle of a 59 year war?  ---- Or, am I wrong and there are no rules governing any of this?

Of course there are rules governing war. But those rules don’t begin on October 8.

Gaza had been launching rockets at Israeli civilians for years. Then, on October 7, Hamas and other armed groups crossed into Israel, deliberately attacked civilians, murdered roughly 1,200 people, abducted 251 and took them into Gaza. The UN documented murder, hostage-taking and sexual violence, including reasonable grounds to believe rape and gang rape occurred.

So let’s talk about your rules.

“Killing terrorists without capture, trial and conviction” is not automatically a violation of the laws of war. That’s what war is. We didn’t capture every German soldier in World War II and put him before a judge before killing him. Enemy combatants can be attacked in an armed conflict. There are rules about who can be targeted and how, including protections for civilians and people who are hors de combat. But there is no general requirement to arrest an enemy fighter first and conduct a trial before engaging him.

The same rules apply to Hamas.

You can’t murder civilians, rape women, abduct people and drag them into Gaza, hold hostages in tunnels, and then invoke the laws of war as though they apply only to Israel’s response.

And your Gaza casualty figures, however tragic, don’t answer the question. They tell us the cost of the war. They don’t establish that every Israeli action was unlawful, and they don’t erase what caused the war.

Israel has an obligation to protect its own people. After October 7, it has every reason to make itself more secure than it was on October 6.

That’s not some sinister Israeli doctrine.

That’s what a nation does after its civilians have been attacked.

If you want to challenge a particular Israeli operation under the laws of war, then make that specific argument.

But don’t tell Israel it has no right to fight because war is dangerous to civilians.

If you don’t want civilians killed in Gaza, don’t start by murdering civilians in Israel.