The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Topic started by: rangerrebew on May 18, 2021, 05:40:20 pm
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Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
The study looked at owners in California specifically and found home charging was a huge factor in people dropping the EV lifestyle.
Sean Szymkowski
May 4, 2021 9:14 a.m. PT
For nearly one-fifth of EV owners, it was one-and-done.
Tesla
As so much of the world works to pivot away from fossil fuels and the internal-combustion engine, a new study from the University of California, Davis, published in the journal Nature Energy last week, showed some concerning signs for what the auto industry still needs to get right. According to this study, which looked at California EV owners specifically between 2015-2019, 18% of electric vehicle owners switched back to a gas-powered car. For plug-in hybrid owners, 20% of them flipped back to a car solely powered by an engine.
The major takeaway from the EV flip-flopping lands in the lap of charging -- specifically at-home charging. The lack of reliable Level 2 charging at home (that's a 240-volt plug) was a major factor leading to EV "discontinuance," as the researchers called it. That makes sense. If you don't have a place to charge reliably, it makes it a lot harder to enjoy the benefits associated with an EV, including an overall lower cost of ownership. Public charging infrastructure remains just OK, with many stations down for maintenance, or simply not close enough to drivers, even in California, where chargers are more common than the rest of the US. And charging times at a public station still aren't on par with gassing up a car.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-owners-switch-gas-power-study/?TheTime=2021-05-18T05%3A48%3A22&PostType=link&ServiceType=twitter&ftag=COS-05-10aaa0b&UniqueID=A7ED027C-B79C-11EB-BF4E-972E3A982C1E
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I am surprised it has not become common to build the charger into the car and use a standard 30A, 240V receptacle (like for an electric clothes dryer).
Faster charging from an outside unit could be available, but quit requiring a special electrical service for homes built without the capability.
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How do you charge your electric car to escape a wildfire if the electric companies have shutoff the power to prevent even more wildfires?
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I am surprised it has not become common to build the charger into the car and use a standard 30A, 240V receptacle (like for an electric clothes dryer).
Faster charging from an outside unit could be available, but quit requiring a special electrical service for homes built without the capability.
i"m suprised they don't use a "swappable battery" type deal where you can just drive to a gas station like place and swap one out.
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i"m suprised they don't use a "swappable battery" type deal where you can just drive to a gas station like place and swap one out.
Seems like a good way to replace your new battery with an old worn out one.
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Seems like a good way to replace your new battery with an old worn out one.
I could see it being like a "propane tank" kinda deal, you never actually buy a new battery, just used ones, because swapping one out is infinitely cheaper. But what do I know?
Of course, I know nothing of the size of the batteries or the complications involved... and I do know the infrastructure just ain't there yet.
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i"m suprised they don't use a "swappable battery" type deal where you can just drive to a gas station like place and swap one out.
Industry will not be able to make enough batteries to even have one per EV at the projected number of EVs (which number I don't believe BTW); making enough extra batteries that they can be swapped routinely is simply not in the cards given the amount of rare earths necessary.
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I could see it being like a "propane tank" kinda deal, you never actually buy a new battery, just used ones, because swapping one out is infinitely cheaper. But what do I know?
Of course, I know nothing of the size of the batteries or the complications involved... and I do know the infrastructure just ain't there yet.
Swapping out propane tanks is cheaper than owning and filling your own? That was never my experience.
I do not see how it could be cheaper, just more convenient when traveling.
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Seems like a good way to replace your new battery with an old worn out one.
I remember Musk thought it was a great idea back in 2013 and Business Insider did a 2015 story on how it wasn't working out.https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 :shrug:
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I could see it being like a "propane tank" kinda deal, you never actually buy a new battery, just used ones, because swapping one out is infinitely cheaper. But what do I know?
Of course, I know nothing of the size of the batteries or the complications involved... and I do know the infrastructure just ain't there yet.
So who do the survivors blame when the battery explodes and wipes out everyone in the car.
I can see how car manufacturers would want to stay as far away from that as possible.
I can see how normal people would want to stay away from that, too. I gave up my gas grill because I had no idea who had those tanks before and how they were used.
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I am surprised it has not become common to build the charger into the car and use a standard 30A, 240V receptacle (like for an electric clothes dryer).
Faster charging from an outside unit could be available, but quit requiring a special electrical service for homes built without the capability.
That's exactly how it works on the Tesla.
(https://i.imgur.com/QeeGe0f.jpg)
The car comes with a Mobile Connector, which plugs into 110V. For a few bucks, you can buy an adapter for that that lets it plug into a standard NEMA 240V socket (there are several variants supported).
https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/mobile-connector
This gets you typically to 240V 30A charging. If you want more than that, or want the convenience of a big robust cord and a place to wind it up, then you can buy their Wall Connector. This also requires a 240V circuit, but it can do higher current (mine is currently limited by the capacity of my existing breaker box - IIRC it's 40A).
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That's exactly how it works on the Tesla.
Thanks, what is the amp rating of that circuit?
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Thanks, what is the amp rating of that circuit?
Check my post again - I added some detail.
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Check my post again - I added some detail.
Thank you!
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And some of us will never buy one in the first place.
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And some of us will never buy one in the first place.
I'm sure in the early days of the automobile, as it started to supplant the horse and buggy, there were many that felt just as you do now, @Bigun.
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I'm sure in the early days of the automobile, as it started to supplant the horse and buggy, there were many that felt just as you do now, @Bigun.
The automobile offers several advantages over the horse and buggy, whereas as far as I can tell the electric car has no advantages over the gas-powered car, and several clear disadvantages, such as shorter range, slower max speed, longer time to refuel. Why would anyone buy an electric car instead of a gas-powered car?
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i"m suprised they don't use a "swappable battery" type deal where you can just drive to a gas station like place and swap one out.
The same could be done with a tank of sodium borohydride.
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The automobile offers several advantages over the horse and buggy, whereas as far as I can tell the electric car has no advantages over the gas-powered car, and several clear disadvantages, such as shorter range, slower max speed, longer time to refuel. Why would anyone buy an electric car instead of a gas-powered car?
Key words being "as far as I can tell". Drive one for a month and get back to me.
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The automobile offers several advantages over the horse and buggy, whereas as far as I can tell the electric car has no advantages over the gas-powered car, and several clear disadvantages, such as shorter range, slower max speed, longer time to refuel. Why would anyone buy an electric car instead of a gas-powered car?
Not needing to worry about the oil is one advantage i'd give them. Plus less maintenance need in general.
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Duh!
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So who do the survivors blame when the battery explodes and wipes out everyone in the car.
I can see how car manufacturers would want to stay as far away from that as possible.
I can see how normal people would want to stay away from that, too. I gave up my gas grill because I had no idea who had those tanks before and how they were used.
It's not like gasoline powered cars are 100% safe either though. Cars kill plenty of people in the US, people still drive.
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I'm all for people being able to spend their money however they wish so if you want an electric car be my guest. I'll pass.
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I'm all for people being able to spend their money however they wish so if you want an electric car be my guest. I'll pass.
Up in here they ain't worth having... They don't do so good in mountains, nor in bitter cold. My sis has a hybrid, and it hardly comes off the motor all winter long, and she took me for a ride down along the lake, and every hill, the motor kicked in. It don't make no sense.
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Up in here they ain't worth having... They don't do so good in mountains, nor in bitter cold. My sis has a hybrid, and it hardly comes off the motor all winter long, and she took me for a ride down along the lake, and every hill, the motor kicked in. It don't make no sense.
It's the same in lots of places but still if someone wants one and can afford it let them have it.
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It's the same in lots of places but still if someone wants one and can afford it let them have it.
That's right. Just saying they ain't gonna catch on here yet.
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That's right. Just saying they ain't gonna catch on here yet.
In these parts, owning one would be like owning Yugo X 1000.
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In these parts, owning one would be like owning Yugo X 1000.
Yeah... Though Yoda pickups have finally got a foothold up in here, so anything is possible, I guess :laugh:
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(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d68b1d75f17a6893ba08154c7358f3643caeff92e1ce1eaeb3ddb6fcb696475a.jpg)
Get one with the additional rear luggage rack so you can carry the fuel necessary to run the generator all night.
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That's right. Just saying they ain't gonna catch on here yet.
Agreed, I think we're still many years from that. ANd I think the energy storage technology needs to improve. I firmly believe they will, eventually, supplant ICE vehicles, and people who say they are inferior are for the most part people who have never owned one and don't understand.
Once you own an electric car, you really don't want to go back. The way they drive is better - the linear acceleration, the one pedal driving. They have almost zero maintenance. Not having to stop for gas - ever - is addictive. But IMHO, right now, they are only practical for people that use them to commute back and forth to work and who don't live 100+ miles from their job, and can afford to also have access to a gasoline powered car for longer trips. Yes, if you have a Tesla, you can use their SuperCharger network to take longer trips, but you can't (for example) take one out into an area without access to a supercharger (like for example, I took a trip to Western Washington to go shooting, and the Tesla was totally not an option for that).
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Agreed, I think we're still many years from that. ANd I think the energy storage technology needs to improve. I firmly believe they will, eventually, supplant ICE vehicles, and people who say they are inferior are for the most part people who have never owned one and don't understand.
Once you own an electric car, you really don't want to go back. The way they drive is better - the linear acceleration, the one pedal driving. They have almost zero maintenance. Not having to stop for gas - ever - is addictive. But IMHO, right now, they are only practical for people that use them to commute back and forth to work and who don't live 100+ miles from their job, and can afford to also have access to a gasoline powered car for longer trips. Yes, if you have a Tesla, you can use their SuperCharger network to take longer trips, but you can't (for example) take one out into an area without access to a supercharger (like for example, I took a trip to Western Washington to go shooting, and the Tesla was totally not an option for that).
Believe it or not, I know where you are coming from. I worked on a race rail that was electrically powered, and while I was not the driver (I did drive it a bit) I know the power and the immediacy of that power that is present in an electric motor. Hard to beat, although steam may come close.
But It is a long, long way from overcoming gas and diesel... just like it is hard put to overcome natural gas, albeit that electric heat is more ubiquitous than I would have predicted.
I think it will become more commonplace in city centers (because that is where they work, and where charging is not a problem), but rural areas, even where it is flat... I just don't see it supplanting anything... Probably ever. Rural families drive suburbans and those suburbans are full. That is a whole nother thing from the little cars (passenger wise) in the cities. And pickups - you'll play hell getting rid of pickups and what they do in rural areas. I think the payloads, both in freight and passengers are well beyond the reach of electric stuff.
Hybrids work here for small cars, and I can see that growing if they can be made powerful enough and able to function in cold weather, will they continue here? Yeah. And electric cars in town? Maybe. Plenty of folks never get far from town. But the blood meat and bone of it is going to be diesel, with gas a close second for the foreseeable future.
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Believe it or not, I know where you are coming from. I worked on a race rail that was electrically powered, and while I was not the driver (I did drive it a bit) I know the power and the immediacy of that power that is present in an electric motor. Hard to beat, although steam may come close.
But It is a long, long way from overcoming gas and diesel... just like it is hard put to overcome natural gas, albeit that electric heat is more ubiquitous than I would have predicted.
I think it will become more commonplace in city centers (because that is where they work, and where charging is not a problem), but rural areas, even where it is flat... I just don't see it supplanting anything... Probably ever. Rural families drive suburbans and those suburbans are full. That is a whole nother thing from the little cars (passenger wise) in the cities. And pickups - you'll play hell getting rid of pickups and what they do in rural areas. I think the payloads, both in freight and passengers are well beyond the reach of electric stuff.
Hybrids work here for small cars, and I can see that growing if they can be made powerful enough and able to function in cold weather, will they continue here? Yeah. And electric cars in town? Maybe. Plenty of folks never get far from town. But the blood meat and bone of it is going to be diesel, with gas a close second for the foreseeable future.
What you said aligns with what I believe as well. I love automobiles of all kinds. But I think that the internal combustion engine is an archaic technology that has outlived its time. It's notable that big car buffs like the Top Gear guys (James May, Richard Hammond), Jay Leno - love electric cars. Many here seem to think they are like hybrids - underpowered vehicles for eco-weenies. They are totally missing it.
Regarding hybrids, I have never been a fan. It combines the worst attributes of both types of vehicles.
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The primary benefit for EVs is regenerative braking. This helps city drivers, but does nothing for rural drivers. In the city, mileage efficiency is reduced because of all the start/stop motion. With regenerative breaking, some of this energy can be recaptured.
Of course it means your vehicle will have to have the battery capacity to store that recaptured energy.
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Smart thing to do, is not getting snookered into this in the first place
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The primary benefit for EVs is regenerative braking. This helps city drivers, but does nothing for rural drivers. In the city, mileage efficiency is reduced because of all the start/stop motion. With regenerative breaking, some of this energy can be recaptured.
Of course it means your vehicle will have to have the battery capacity to store that recaptured energy.
If it is all electric, the battery capacity is always there to recapture energy through braking. Any kinetic energy you capture through braking was already drawn out of the battery to reach the speed before braking.
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edit: If started from the top of a tall hill, you might get more kinetic energy than capacity, but only if you recharged the battery while on top of the hill.
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Key words being "as far as I can tell". Drive one for a month and get back to me.
No thanks. If you can't distill the advantages down into a few sentences, they probably aren't very tangible.
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Not needing to worry about the oil is one advantage i'd give them. Plus less maintenance need in general.
That is an advantage. I'm not sure if it is enough of an advantage to overcome the lack of infrastructure currently, but in the future if the infrastructure is built up it could become a reason to adopt electric vehicles.
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What you said aligns with what I believe as well. I love automobiles of all kinds. But I think that the internal combustion engine is an archaic technology that has outlived its time. It's notable that big car buffs like the Top Gear guys (James May, Richard Hammond), Jay Leno - love electric cars. Many here seem to think they are like hybrids - underpowered vehicles for eco-weenies. They are totally missing it.
Crazy power, crazy fast. The problem is the long extension cord.
BUT, if you'd have told me my beloved blip gun - the 3/8 drive pneumatic impact wrench that has been so well used all my life, that it has actually conformed to my hand - If you'd have told me that I would prefer a batt operated impact gun over it, I would have laughed in your face.
But it turns out to be true. And the same in construction. I am FAR more likely to pick up my Ryobi stuff than my corded stuff. No cords is awesome. Oddly enough, the one that has not been supplanted is my little Rodac 1/4"hex pneumatic screw driver, that hangs forever on it's coily hose above my bench. It still works better than the electrics for bench work. Go figger.
And the same with my current project - This subject, again in minimum. I am building an electric trike, built on a Schwinn Meridian platform, and I mean to tell you, I am seriously impressed. I am gonna make me one. That thing can go the mile into town, and all over town, and back again, on a single charge. They preach 15-20 miles, but I know for sure it will go 10 miles with no trouble, and it is a pleasant ride. Not a barn burner by any means, but comparatively quiet and calm. Really a good time. That's another one I would have laughed at. Me on an old-lady trike. And it is STILL laughable,were it not for the electronics.
So yeah, it's coming on and improving. Even the solar project I am doing would not have been possible for me even 5 years ago.
Regarding hybrids, I have never been a fan. It combines the worst attributes of both types of vehicles.
Yeah, I am not impressed. But they are better than electric here, for the winters.
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If it is all electric, the battery capacity is always there to recapture energy through braking. Any kinetic energy you capture through braking was already drawn out of the battery to reach the speed before braking.
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edit: If started from the top of a tall hill, you might get more kinetic energy than capacity, but only if you recharged the battery while on top of the hill.
I was thinking more along the lines of a fuel cell car. Definitely an EV, but one that doesn't require a traditional electric battery.
Also, brakes on wheels are not tied to the drive shaft. Yes, coasting down a hill will put drive shaft energy back into the motor. But stopping for a stop sign does not. That energy is traditionally lost via heat though the rotors and pads.
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Hoodat wrote:
"Also, brakes on wheels are not tied to the drive shaft. Yes, coasting down a hill will put drive shaft energy back into the motor. But stopping for a stop sign does not."
On a railroad locomotive, the dynamic/regenerative brakes can't actually stop the train, although they can slow it down to, say, 5mph. The engineer still needs to "use the air brakes" to make the actual stop.
Below 5mph or so the dynamic/regenerated current begins to fade away, no longer effective against the movement/mass of the train.
I would reckon the same principles apply to rubber-tied vehicles, as well.
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Crazy power, crazy fast. The problem is the long extension cord.
BUT, if you'd have told me my beloved blip gun - the 3/8 drive pneumatic impact wrench that has been so well used all my life, that it has actually conformed to my hand - If you'd have told me that I would prefer a batt operated impact gun over it, I would have laughed in your face.
But it turns out to be true. And the same in construction. I am FAR more likely to pick up my Ryobi stuff than my corded stuff. No cords is awesome. Oddly enough, the one that has not been supplanted is my little Rodac 1/4"hex pneumatic screw driver, that hangs forever on it's coily hose above my bench. It still works better than the electrics for bench work. Go figger.
And the same with my current project - This subject, again in minimum. I am building an electric trike, built on a Schwinn Meridian platform, and I mean to tell you, I am seriously impressed. I am gonna make me one. That thing can go the mile into town, and all over town, and back again, on a single charge. They preach 15-20 miles, but I know for sure it will go 10 miles with no trouble, and it is a pleasant ride. Not a barn burner by any means, but comparatively quiet and calm. Really a good time. That's another one I would have laughed at. Me on an old-lady trike. And it is STILL laughable,were it not for the electronics.
So yeah, it's coming on and improving. Even the solar project I am doing would not have been possible for me even 5 years ago.
Yeah, I am not impressed. But they are better than electric here, for the winters.
That sounds like a fun project. Watch out for the other drives - it's worse than a motorcycle in terms of the attention drivers pay to you (and I am a motorcycle rider - not knocking the idea).
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Crazy power, crazy fast. The problem is the long extension cord.
BUT, if you'd have told me my beloved blip gun - the 3/8 drive pneumatic impact wrench that has been so well used all my life, that it has actually conformed to my hand - If you'd have told me that I would prefer a batt operated impact gun over it, I would have laughed in your face.
But it turns out to be true. And the same in construction. I am FAR more likely to pick up my Ryobi stuff than my corded stuff. No cords is awesome. Oddly enough, the one that has not been supplanted is my little Rodac 1/4"hex pneumatic screw driver, that hangs forever on it's coily hose above my bench. It still works better than the electrics for bench work. Go figger.
And the same with my current project - This subject, again in minimum. I am building an electric trike, built on a Schwinn Meridian platform, and I mean to tell you, I am seriously impressed. I am gonna make me one. That thing can go the mile into town, and all over town, and back again, on a single charge. They preach 15-20 miles, but I know for sure it will go 10 miles with no trouble, and it is a pleasant ride. Not a barn burner by any means, but comparatively quiet and calm. Really a good time. That's another one I would have laughed at. Me on an old-lady trike. And it is STILL laughable,were it not for the electronics.
So yeah, it's coming on and improving. Even the solar project I am doing would not have been possible for me even 5 years ago.
Yeah, I am not impressed. But they are better than electric here, for the winters.
Until recently I have been using mostly pneumatic tools. The larger industrial tools are dirt cheap used, because most people don't have the CFM to drive them. My compressor will put out 25CFM all day long. And I'm only running it a half power. It's nice having 3phase. My favorite tool though is a Jet 1/4" die grinder that must be 30 yrs old now and just refuses to die. Over the years I could pick up as many used cordless tools as I wanted free, just with no batteries. Most constriction workers would buy new tools instead of ever getting a new battery. So I'd convert them back to corded to run off of gel cells. My son gave my a cordless drill last year, and I use it a lot. If I need power though, I go back to pneumatic. Many years ago,(25?) I built my son an off road gokart. For a motor I used a GM generator. Worked good. I am also powering my Mill/Drill with another GM generator. I started building an electric off road hill climbing minibike. Another of my projects I need to get back to.
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Until recently I have been using mostly pneumatic tools. The larger industrial tools are dirt cheap used, because most people don't have the CFM to drive them. My compressor will put out 25CFM all day long. And I'm only running it a half power. It's nice having 3phase. My favorite tool though is a Jet 1/4" die grinder that must be 30 yrs old now and just refuses to die. Over the years I could pick up as many used cordless tools as I wanted free, just with no batteries. Most constriction workers would buy new tools instead of ever getting a new battery. So I'd convert them back to corded to run off of gel cells. My son gave my a cordless drill last year, and I use it a lot. If I need power though, I go back to pneumatic. Many years ago,(25?) I built my son an off road gokart. For a motor I used a GM generator. Worked good. I am also powering my Mill/Drill with another GM generator. I started building an electric off road hill climbing minibike. Another of my projects I need to get back to.
Oh how the mighty have fallen!! I used to have a 3phase compressor at my old shop. I used to have a lot of things at my old shop... Actually, I STILL have a lot of things, but they are all tightly wedged (I mean tetris, man) into about 3/4ths of a 12x18 shed, floor to ceiling... I have one short wall, with my little tool box, my bench, and my old jobsite compressor and a wee aisle to get at em. I had figured to put up a 25x40 with my pooter lab off one side in a leanto, and my carpentry stuff on the other side... But I flat ran out of fun tickets just getting the house done. Another 20k would have had it dried in with the lab done... But, spilt milk. :shrug:
SO right now I am stuck with 1/2" and under impact (I have up to 1" drive), and no die grinders, DAs or airboards. I did haul out my air hammer the other day to try to cut the top out of a 55 for a burn barrel, but that little 30 gallon compressor couldn't keep up. Almost, but not really. No air drills either.
Oddly enough, the top came off that 55 using my batt operated sawzall.
Pneumatics have always been cheap. if you watch for em, you can get a bucketful for about nothing, 'broken'... Pump a little carb cleaner through em and a bit of tranny fluid, and they usually come right to life again. Just plugged up. Hardly ever need to crack them open. anything auto-oiler wll plug up like that.
But yeah. battery tools have fairly supplanted pneumatics. Kinda. through 3/8ths mostly. Hardball 1/2" I will have to haul out the air. It is still more powerful. Just not as convenient.
Same in construction. piddly work (which is most of it) the batt powered stuff just rules. But if I had to say, screw off a drywall job or a deck, the corded drill is coming out for sure.
Projects, right? I have about 20 right now that got past 'fixin to'... and partly to 'round tuit'. :laugh:
They tell me the number 1 pile is always bigger than the finished product.
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Agreed, I think we're still many years from that. ANd I think the energy storage technology needs to improve. I firmly believe they will, eventually, supplant ICE vehicles, and people who say they are inferior are for the most part people who have never owned one and don't understand.
Once you own an electric car, you really don't want to go back. The way they drive is better - the linear acceleration, the one pedal driving. They have almost zero maintenance. Not having to stop for gas - ever - is addictive. But IMHO, right now, they are only practical for people that use them to commute back and forth to work and who don't live 100+ miles from their job, and can afford to also have access to a gasoline powered car for longer trips. Yes, if you have a Tesla, you can use their SuperCharger network to take longer trips, but you can't (for example) take one out into an area without access to a supercharger (like for example, I took a trip to Western Washington to go shooting, and the Tesla was totally not an option for that).
It all comes down to battery technology. Electric cars are far simpler mechanically and less expensive to produce - excluding the battery... Eventually that problem will be solved. There's a lot resources working on that problem.
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It all comes down to battery technology. Electric cars are far simpler mechanically and less expensive to produce - excluding the battery... Eventually that problem will be solved. There's a lot resources working on that problem.
I agree, it will be solved one day.
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I agree, it will be solved one day.
Agreed, efficient, economic energy storage is the brass ring many industries are reaching to grab.
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Agreed, efficient, economic energy storage is the brass ring many industries are reaching to grab.
Ever elusive according to thermodynamics. :shrug:
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I was hoping they would develop a liquid fuel cell that would replace batteries in vehicles.
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I was hoping they would develop a liquid fuel cell that would replace batteries in vehicles.
Gasoline Fuel Cell Would Boost Electric Car Range
https://www.technologyreview.com/2011/12/02/86731/gasoline-fuel-cell-would-boost-electric-car-range/
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I was hoping they would develop a liquid fuel cell that would replace batteries in vehicles.
I see what you did there.
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I see what you did there.
What? I can't have hopes and dreams?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBIDuglkWi3rruAbldjdRDjhI7B0LaHy9moQ&usqp=CAU)
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Until ACME gets involved, I'm unconvinced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huf-7dZ8Rts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huf-7dZ8Rts)
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ER8Klm3IwmnuN_xwrIbmrrKAnn4jTisV53KfdE_azZxZybVpM6wdIBGztqTEkMFQeQQ_MuTzsNEWG8CqyRbQRp6YqURZrtdN43lUHdUZlUmgTQ)
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What? I can't have hopes and dreams?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBIDuglkWi3rruAbldjdRDjhI7B0LaHy9moQ&usqp=CAU)
Well, it may have been in jest, but I still think this would be an improvement. The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's parts wear out, it's heavy, and has poor efficiency. The electric motor is a beautifully simple device. That's the main benefit of the electric car. If they could ditch the lithium batteries and replace with a gas-powered fuel cell, that would provide us with a vehicle with all the benefits.
Of course, the climate alarmists wouldn't be happy, but who cares what they think.
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Well, it may have been in jest, but I still think this would be an improvement. The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's parts wear out, it's heavy, and has poor efficiency. The electric motor is a beautifully simple device. That's the main benefit of the electric car. If they could ditch the lithium batteries and replace with a gas-powered fuel cell, that would provide us with a vehicle with all the benefits.
Of course, the climate alarmists wouldn't be happy, but who cares what they think.
And high torque at zero RPM. Don't need a clutch, torque converter or multiple gear ratios. The drive train is dramatically simpler. In time it will likely be a motor in the wheel hub with no other mechanical drive train at all.
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And high torque at zero RPM. Don't need a clutch, torque converter or multiple gear ratios. The drive train is dramatically simpler. In time it will likely be a motor in the wheel hub with no other mechanical drive train at all.
I always thought that Tesla was going to go with the motors in the wheel hubs - to give the ultimate in traction control. But it seems there's a lot of efficiency lost with that approach. My Model 3 is the "Dual Motor" variant, but the two motors are actually significantly different. One of them is the higher efficiency one that uses permanent magnets, and the other is something different. Apparently most of the time just the high efficiency one runs.
There's a lot of info online about the Tesla motors it if you're interested.
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Tesla Model 3's motor - The Brilliant Engineering behind it
Lesics Dec 18, 2020
The engineers of Tesla motor's shocked everyone when they abandoned the versatile induction motor in Model 3 cars. They used a totally different motor called IPM-SynRM. Let's understand why the Tesla engineers made this crucial design change.
We thank EMWorks for their FEA support. To know more about this powerful electromagnetic simulation software checkout : https://www.emworks.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio)
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Great video, @Elderberry . Thanks for posting that.
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@BassWrangler Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:
http://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html (http://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html)
Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron
Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.
The challenge is range. Battery energy is easily enough to cross cities but not enough for long-distance freeway driving.
BatteryEnergy ∼ Range * Speed2 * DragArea
For a typical electric car driving at city speed,
Car speed = V = 20 meters/second
Air density = D = 1.22 kg/meter3
Air drag area = K = 1.5 meters2
Air drag force = F = ½ K D V2 =366 Newtons
Air drag power = P = ½ K D V3 = 7.3 kWatts
Battery energy = E = F X =100 MJoules
Range = X = E/(½ K D V2) =272 km
An electric generator can extend range. Generators have poor power/mass but for ground vehicles, mass isn't a problem. If we equip electric vehicles with generators,
Speed Generator Generator Generator
m/s power (kW) cost ($) mass (kg)
Kick scooter 10 .25 25 1
Bike 15 1.0 100 5
Trike 20 4 400 20
Compact car 30 16 1600 80
Mid-sized car 30 25 2500 125
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@BassWrangler Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:
https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html (https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html)
Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron
Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.
The challenge is range. Battery energy is easily enough to cross cities but not enough for long-distance freeway driving.
BatteryEnergy ∼ Range * Speed2 * DragArea
For a typical electric car driving at city speed,
Car speed = V = 20 meters/second
Air density = D = 1.22 kg/meter3
Air drag area = K = 1.5 meters2
Air drag force = F = ½ K D V2 =366 Newtons
Air drag power = P = ½ K D V3 = 7.3 kWatts
Battery energy = E = F X =100 MJoules
Range = X = E/(½ K D V2) =272 km
An electric generator can extend range. Generators have poor power/mass but for ground vehicles, mass isn't a problem. If we equip electric vehicles with generators,
Speed Generator Generator Generator
m/s power (kW) cost ($) mass (kg)
Kick scooter 10 .25 25 1
Bike 15 1.0 100 5
Trike 20 4 400 20
Compact car 30 16 1600 80
Mid-sized car 30 25 2500 125
Thanks, will check it out.
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@BassWrangler Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:
https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html (https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html)
Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron
Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.
I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.
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I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.
I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.
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Au contraire, mon frere. Always dealing with BTUs, lb/ft3, hp, inH2O, and bbls. Not by choice though.
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Au contraire, mon frere. Always dealing with BTUs, lb/ft3, hp, inH2O, and bbls. Not by choice though.
Is that the energy industry?
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Is that the energy industry?
Oil, as well as refining and chemicals. Process oriented. Not design.
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I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.
About a year ago I finally moved to metric dimensions for HDI PCB layout and housing design. Prior everything I did was in inches/mils with the vast majority of component specifications being in millimeters and having to be converted. All the mechanical hardware (screws/washers/etc.) I use are also metric now with the exception of the customer mounting interfaces still being in inches and English (#6-32 for example) for mounting hole sizes.
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I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.
Metric vs Imperial Units: How NASA lost a 327 Million Dollar Mission to Mars
https://everydayastronaut.com/mars-climate-orbiter/
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I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.
All of our design drawings are dimensioning in imperial units.
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:bkmk:
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Oil, as well as refining and chemicals. Process oriented. Not design.
OK, interesting, I didn't know that. I know some PCB designers and machinists work in mils too, so my comment was overly broad.
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Why isn't time measure in metric? From what I figure the only thing that could not be in metric is days/year.
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Seconds, minutes and hours are based on the joints of the fingers of your hand~60/12 or so I've heard @Weird Tolkienish Figure
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Seconds, minutes and hours are based on the joints of the fingers of your hand~60/12 or so I've heard @Weird Tolkienish Figure
How 10 Fingers Became 12 Hours
episode number ED-191
https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours (https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours)
We have 10 fingers, so we’ve based our common counting systems on 10. Why then, do we divide the day into 12 hours and the hour into 60 minutes?
To understand, we need to go back 3000 years. Babylonians also used their hands to count, but wanting to count higher than 10, they devised a different system.
They used their thumb to count the three segments of their four fingers to get 12. They marked that 12 by raising a finger on the other hand. Twelve times five fingers is 60.
2500 years ago, when people started using sundials, it seemed only natural to divide the day in 12.
Egyptian astronomers then found 12 stars to mark the passing of time in the night sky, making a 24-hour cycle.
Early Greek mathematicians realized they could divide a circle into six equilateral triangles like a sliced pizza.
Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.
Another Greek divided those degrees further, into 60 minute parts, and those into 60 secondary parts.
A few centuries later, these geographic minutes and seconds were applied to the 24-hour day.
But it would take another thousand years before we could accurately measure that second, which we’ll cover on another EarthDate.
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Thanks for that explanation @Elderberry I thought it went back to the Sumerians.
Our cars are small, not because we are poor (like me) but they fit on the same size roads the Romans used to invade everybody, I also heard.
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How 10 Fingers Became 12 Hours
episode number ED-191
https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours (https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours)
We have 10 fingers, so we’ve based our common counting systems on 10. Why then, do we divide the day into 12 hours and the hour into 60 minutes?
To understand, we need to go back 3000 years. Babylonians also used their hands to count, but wanting to count higher than 10, they devised a different system.
They used their thumb to count the three segments of their four fingers to get 12. They marked that 12 by raising a finger on the other hand. Twelve times five fingers is 60.
2500 years ago, when people started using sundials, it seemed only natural to divide the day in 12.
Egyptian astronomers then found 12 stars to mark the passing of time in the night sky, making a 24-hour cycle.
Early Greek mathematicians realized they could divide a circle into six equilateral triangles like a sliced pizza.
Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.
Another Greek divided those degrees further, into 60 minute parts, and those into 60 secondary parts.
A few centuries later, these geographic minutes and seconds were applied to the 24-hour day.
But it would take another thousand years before we could accurately measure that second, which we’ll cover on another EarthDate.
I don't know all that, but your hand without the thumb, held to the sky is about an hour. So if you know the sun came up around 8am and you are 3 hands above the horizon, that is around 11am, and four hands will get you straight up which would be noon... Consequently, each finger is around a quarter hour...
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I don't know all that, but your hand without the thumb, held to the sky is about an hour. So if you know the sun came up around 8am and you are 3 hands above the horizon, that is around 11am, and four hands will get you straight up which would be noon... Consequently, each finger is around a quarter hour...
15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.
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....
Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.
......
My understanding is the 360 degree circle came from ancient celestial observations of what we call the sidereal year, i.e. how long it takes the sun to complete an annual cycle of motion relative to the fixed stars. We know this is 365 and a quarter days give or take a few minutes; lacking the conveniences of a Hubble Telescope, atomic clocks, and digital computations, the learned ancients were off a bit, or decided simply to round the circle to 360 units for convenience.
I cannot cite a reference, it's just something I read somewhere a long time ago; I stand to be corrected.
I have never read the connection between the twelve carpal bones in the fingers of one hand and the four-fingers-plus-one-thumb of the other hand explaining 12 and 60 in our measurements of time. If that's not really true, it should be.
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15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.
Works up in here... Good enough anyhow, for mountain time... Of course it ain't perfect, as it has to do with the size of your hand, length of your arm, height, and etc... But for my particular configuration, it works. :shrug:
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The automobile offers several advantages over the horse and buggy, whereas as far as I can tell the electric car has no advantages over the gas-powered car, and several clear disadvantages, such as shorter range, slower max speed, longer time to refuel. Why would anyone buy an electric car instead of a gas-powered car?
:thumbsup:
EV is NWO crap.
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15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.
I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...
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If you do it right, fuel for the electric car can be free. You can use other people's electricity to charge it. Our research park has free hookups.
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I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...
It definitely matters if you are using the technique where you're measuring the number of finger widths between the bottom of the sun and the horizon. You can read more about it here (https://awesci.com/calculating-sunset-time-with-your-fingers/#:~:text=Each%20finger%20is%20about%2015%20minutes%20of%20remaining,is%20very%20close%20to%2015%20minutes%20per%20finger).
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It definitely matters if you are using the technique where you're measuring the number of finger widths between the bottom of the sun and the horizon. You can read more about it here (https://awesci.com/calculating-sunset-time-with-your-fingers/#:~:text=Each%20finger%20is%20about%2015%20minutes%20of%20remaining,is%20very%20close%20to%2015%20minutes%20per%20finger).
Yep, that technique is heavily dependent on what latitude you are.
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I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...
Yeah it does matter for telling time... Summer vs winter, the sun ain't in the sky nowhere near the same amount of time. Summer she rises at 4:30 and sets near 11pm... In the winter your lucky if it's up at 9 and it's gone at 4pm...
So telling time, you have to take that into account. But it really don't matter in the doing, because noon is always pretty much straight up, and it still works the same way to tell how long till the sun sets, even if it is longer between noon and when the sun sets... From straight up noon to four oclock is still four hands, and three hands from sunset is still 3hrs. Or thereabouts.
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Yeah it does matter for telling time... Summer vs winter, the sun ain't in the sky nowhere near the same amount of time. Summer she rises at 4:30 and sets near 11pm... In the winter your lucky if it's up at 9 and it's gone at 4pm...
So telling time, you have to take that into account. But it really don't matter in the doing, because noon is always pretty much straight up, and it still works the same way to tell how long till the sun sets, even if it is longer between noon and when the sun sets... From straight up noon to four oclock is still four hands, and three hands from sunset is still 3hrs. Or thereabouts.
I was thinking about the rotation around the earth and not relative to the horizon. If the horizon is the reference then where you are matters a lot.