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General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: Fishrrman on June 15, 2017, 01:57:46 pm

Title: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Fishrrman on June 15, 2017, 01:57:46 pm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/14/america-now-the-worlds-oldest-democracy/

Can a divided America survive?
The nation is not immune to the virus that killed others

By Victor Davis Hanson
Wednesday, June 14, 2017

The United States is currently the world’s oldest democracy.

But America is no more immune from collapse than were some of history’s most stable and impressive consensual governments. Fifth-century Athens, Republican Rome, Renaissance Florence and Venice, and many of the elected governments of early 20th-century Western European states eventually destroyed themselves, went bankrupt or were overrun by invaders.

The United States is dividing as rarely before. Half the country, mostly liberal America, is concentrated in 146 of the nation’s more than 3,000 counties — in an area that collectively represents less than 10 percent of the U.S. land mass. The other half, the conservative red states of the interior of America, is geographically, culturally, economically, politically and socially at odds with blue-state America, which resides mostly on the two coasts.

The two Americas watch different news. They read very different books, listen to different music and watch different television shows. Increasingly, they now live lives according to two widely different traditions.

Red America and Blue America are spiraling into divisions approaching those of 1860, or of the nihilistic hippie-straight divide of 1968.

Currently, some 27 percent of all Californians were not born in the United States. More than 40 million foreign-born immigrants currently reside in the United States — the highest number in the nation’s history.

Yet widely unchecked immigration comes at a time when the country has lost confidence in its prior successful adherence to melting-pot assimilation and integration. The ultimate result is a fragmenting of society into tribal cliques that vie for power, careers and influence on the basis of ethnic solidarity rather than shared Americanness.

History is not very kind to multicultural chaos — as opposed to a multiracial society united by a single national culture. The fates of Rwanda, Iraq and the former Yugoslavia should remind us of our present disastrous trajectory.

Either the United States will return to a shared single language and allegiance to a common and singular culture, or it will eventually descend into clannish violence.


Does the unique American idea of federalism still work, with state rights and laws subordinate to federal law? We fought a Civil War that cost more than 600,000 lives in part to uphold the idea that individual states could not override the federal government.

Yet sanctuary cities declare that they can freely nullify federal immigration law. The California Senate passed a bill earlier this month that would prohibit the state from contracting with any firms that work on the federal government’s wall at the border with Mexico.

States such as California vow that they will ignore Washington and work directly with foreign nations to promote their own policies on global warming. Read carefully what some prominent Californians are saying about the federal government: It is not much different from what influential Confederate South Carolinians boasted about in 1860 on the eve of secession.

The national debt has almost doubled over the last eight years and, at nearly $20 trillion, is unsustainable.

Entitlement spending rose even as new taxes increased. The have-nots claim the haves make far too much money; the haves retort that they pay most of the income taxes while nearly half the country pays nothing.

Most Americans agree that the present levels of borrowing and spending cannot continue. But many believe that the tough medicine to cure the disease of chronic annual deficits and mounting debt is unacceptable.

America’s infrastructure and military are vastly underfunded, even though some voters want more subsidies for themselves and, apparently, others to pay for them.

America’s once-pre-eminent colleges and universities are fatally compromised. Universities charge far too much, resist reform, expect exemption from accountability, and assume their students must take on huge amounts of debt. Yet campuses can’t guarantee that their graduates are competently educated or that they will find jobs.

Illiberal attempts to end free speech, to sanction racial and gender segregation, and to attack rather than argue with opponents are disguised by euphemisms such as “safe spaces,” “trigger warnings” and various -isms and -ologies.

Behind the guise of campus activism and non-negotiable demands is the reality that too many students simply are unprepared to do their assigned work and seek exemption through protests in lieu of hard studying.

America barely survived the Civil War of 1861-65, the Great Depression of 1929-39, and the rioting and protests of the 1960s. But today’s growing divides are additionally supercharged by instant internet and social media communications, 24/7 cable news, partisan media and the denigration of America’s past traditions.

All Americans need to take a deep breath, step back and rein in their anger — and find more ways to connect rather than divide themselves.

They should assume their opponents are not all sinners, and that their supporters are not all saints.

Things are bad now. But our own history suggests that if we are not careful, they can get even worse.

(Some content omitted. See URL above for full article)
Above emphasis added by poster
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
History is not very kind to multicultural chaos — as opposed to a multiracial society united by a single national culture. ...Either the United States will return to a shared single language and allegiance to a common and singular culture, or it will eventually descend into clannish violence.

We are already there, and given the numbers of 'immigrants' and refugees who have no intention of assimilating into an American culture - and the fact the urban areas and Academe are as hostile to our culture, foundations and existence as the Jihadists are, clannish violence is inevitable.

And hanging over all of this, is when this unsustainable debt and fiat currency finally implodes and all the welfare bennies dry up.

France in the 1790's will be a picnic in comparison given trends.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Bigun on June 15, 2017, 02:24:50 pm
It is my humble opinion that the USA is currently in the midst of a TRUE civil war - one in which the contending sides are actually fighting for control of the central government.  Currently it is mostly being fought with invective but is rapidly moving toward full blown, all out, warfare. 
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 02:46:01 pm
If we would have a serious and sustained interest rate spike, we'd have trouble just paying the interest on our debt on what we have today, not to mention if we tack on another $10T in 10 years like the CBO projects. Or another recession like the last where our tax revenues fell 20%.

Since 75% of our budget is military and social programs, but cuts would mean cities burning and no money to defend it. At that point it's going to be very hard to hold together and not have states going their separate ways.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 02:50:18 pm
If we would have a serious and sustained interest rate spike, we'd have trouble just paying the interest on our debt on what we have today, not to mention if we tack on another $10T in 10 years like the CBO projects. Or another recession like the last where our tax revenues fell 20%.

Since 75% of our budget is military and social programs, but cuts would mean cities burning and no money to defend it. At that point it's going to be very hard to hold together and not have states going their separate ways.

Apparently few are willing to see that inevitability.

It's already cooked into our fate, and everyone is stuck inside a fatal case of Normalcy Bias.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Taxcontrol on June 15, 2017, 02:52:57 pm
Lets be honest.  The left does not listen to the right and the right does not listen to the left.  Each is it's own echo chamber.  So until each side is able to denounce the calls for violence; until each side is willing, able and ACTIVELY policing it's own .... there will be no change.


And since we have seen that the leadership on the left supports and calls for riots, violence and assaults on others as a means of advancing their agenda, I see no hope of change in this situation.  Consequently, we are on a path to civil war.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on June 15, 2017, 02:56:42 pm
Apparently few are willing to see that inevitability.

It's already cooked into our fate, and everyone is stuck inside a fatal case of Normalcy Bias.

Meh. I really think this is a case of two groups hiding in their own echo chambers. When you reside in a 24/7 cacophony of rage (like right wing media) and encounter nutjobs (like those found in spades on tos and even this website) it's easy to think the world is coming to an end. The loudest idiots on both sides tend to scream the shrilled and it's easy to think that is the norm. Normies have no appetite for splitting up and certainly none for an actual civil war.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 03:34:28 pm
Meh. I really think this is a case of two groups hiding in their own echo chambers. When you reside in a 24/7 cacophony of rage (like right wing media) and encounter nutjobs (like those found in spades on tos and even this website) it's easy to think the world is coming to an end. The loudest idiots on both sides tend to scream the shrilled and it's easy to think that is the norm. Normies have no appetite for splitting up and certainly none for an actual civil war.

When 'Normies' have absolutely no use for foundational principles and are perfectly fine with both Socialism and Big Government no matter what letter follows a name as long as they get theirs - it's no longer about echo chambers, but that our bedrock as a society and nation has been dug up and tossed.

What are we supposed to stand on as a people?   God?  He's been rejected and banned.   Liberty?   People do not want that risk.  They want 'security' and a hand-out and those well-off  think government's role is to provide for those unable or unwilling to provide for themselves.

We have been divided along lines race, gender, sexual appetite, religion, no religion, political party, ideology, location, education, aspiration and association.

A society cannot survive long with that amount of it's population irrevocably divided along those lines.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 03:36:40 pm
Meh. I really think this is a case of two groups hiding in their own echo chambers. When you reside in a 24/7 cacophony of rage (like right wing media) and encounter nutjobs (like those found in spades on tos and even this website) it's easy to think the world is coming to an end. The loudest idiots on both sides tend to scream the shrilled and it's easy to think that is the norm. Normies have no appetite for splitting up and certainly none for an actual civil war.

Up until the last few years I would have agreed with you. But after 50 years of culture war since the 60's there are clear lines drawn well beyond the echo chamber of activists. Obama has just ramped that up 10 fold. I've seen more political engagement in this last election than I ever have, and the lines are sharply drawn.

It's so much easier now in the age of viral to use small numbers to great effect. The Leftists have really latched onto this. Add a new influx of bodies and energy from SJW Millennials with alot of Soros type money, and you have a perfect vehicle to sow chaos, dissension and disruption via a really small percentage.

Which creates the backlash in the conservative areas of the country. And the Left is fine with that. They have become so true-believer and full of their self-righteous cock swagger they just don't care anymore. Those on the other side most just say 'have at it, we have all the guns.'

And that's where it stands. I don't see it de-escalating any time soon. How it will manfest here out I don't know, but it is definitely beyond the echo chamber. If we do encounter hard financial times, it is definitely going to blow up much much bigger.

Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on June 15, 2017, 03:42:23 pm
What are we supposed to stand on as a people? 

You simply have to accept that there are people out there who disagree with you.  :shrug: And accept that pulling a lever every few years is about the best you're gonna do to have your voice heard (as you are 1 in about 350 million people).

IMO a lot of people use politics as a vector for their own mental illness. They are isolated, depressed, and they like to believe magic men shysters (either AM radio or internet hacks for the right, or in the left, media figures and college professors) who have simple answers to every aspect in life.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: skeeter on June 15, 2017, 03:44:24 pm
Apparently few are willing to see that inevitability.

It's already cooked into our fate, and everyone is stuck inside a fatal case of Normalcy Bias.

Historians are the best to be able to divine where the US is headed, because we're not going anywhere societies in the past haven't already gone.

IMO one day in the near future there are going to be a great many bewildered and unprepared people in this country.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: rangerrebew on June 15, 2017, 03:51:21 pm
Abraham Lincoln dealt with this many years ago in his "House Divided" speech:
 
 "A house divided against itself cannot stand.

I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free.

I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided.

It will become all one thing or all the other. "

The slavery issue still stands today.  Instead it will be slavery to the government, not an individual.  As he also noted, does it really matter to the slave who the master is?
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 03:56:13 pm
You simply have to accept that there are people out there who disagree with you.  :shrug: And accept that pulling a lever every few years is about the best you're gonna do to have your voice heard (as you are 1 in about 350 million people).

IMO a lot of people use politics as a vector for their own mental illness. They are isolated, depressed, and they like to believe magic men shysters (either AM radio or internet hacks for the right, or in the left, media figures and college professors) who have simple answers to every aspect in life.

Sorry, but I think you are delusional. It is alot more complex than just the disgruntled Trumpian alt-right v. Bernie alt-left internet jingo. It is metastasizing way beyond that.

And that's the problem. I can't just accept that there are people out there who disgree with me anymore. Because the Left is now using aggression and targeting and not respecting any civil lines, becoming more extremist by the day. There is a certain point where you area bridge too far, and they are there. They need to be stomped into the ground, not lived with in civility.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on June 15, 2017, 03:58:18 pm
They need to be stomped into the ground, not lived with in civility.

Then go stomp them into the ground. Another internet kook and keyboard warrior making an idle threat.

Turn off your computer, big boy, and get stomping. Go stomp some filthy leftists.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 04:12:57 pm
Then go stomp them into the ground. Another internet kook and keyboard warrior making an idle threat.

Turn off your computer, big boy, and get stomping. Go stomp some filthy leftists.

That's rich from the guy who sees the Trumpian alt-right bogeyman under every rock and behind every corner, and literally stamps his internet foot in scathing unhinged tirades. You go live in that civil moderate bipartisan echo chamber Mitch McConnell.

In fact I did stomp liberals doing nearly 20 years of politics. We control the Governor and Legislature of Iowa, and we just spent the last legislative session stomping the liberals into the ground. I stomp them on facebook, stomp them in debate in public, and never back down an inch anywhere.

And I'm not the only one. You think the Left is going to stop the aggression? They aren't. They have made themselves into a threat, and I don't back down from threats, and neither do alot of people. If that bothers some pissy pants crybabies who want everything to be peace and love, I don't care. Playtime stops when threats start.

Sorry if that offends your effete worldview.

Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on June 15, 2017, 04:15:00 pm
That's rich from the guy who sees the Trumpian alt-right bogeyman under every rock and behind every corner, and literally stamps his internet foot in scathing unhinged tirades. You go live in that civil moderate bipartisan echo chamber Mitch McConnell.

In fact I did stomp liberals doing nearly 20 years of politics. We control the Governor and Legislature of Iowa, and we just spend the last legislative session stomping the liberals into the ground. I stomp them on facebook, stomp them in debate in public, and never back down an inch anywhere.

And I'm not the only one. You think the Left is going to stop the aggression? They aren't. They have made themselves into a threat, and I don't back down from threats, and neither do alot of people. If that bothers some pissy pants crybabies who want everything to be peace and love, I don't care. Playtime stops when threats start.

Sorry if that offends your effete worldview.

Great, so you voted. Exactly what I advocate.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 04:23:47 pm
Great, so you voted. Exactly what I advocate.

Oh but aren't you smirky. Smirky and smug 10 foot tall internet lawyer wannabe twisting clever little words in clever little arrangement and then patting themselves on the back over their smirky retorts.

The problem is in your fevered delusional and your hyperventilating paranoia over alt-right Trumpians you're willing to twist and project what you want seen to fit the agenda. By 'stomp' I mean everywhere - on the street, in the ballot box, in the legislative chambers, on the internet.

And yeah, if the Lefty mob tries to assault me on my domicile and anywhere else, I'll shoot them in the head too. I am the one living my life trying to be left along and do good, they are the ones agitating for marxist revolution. Clear contrast there.

So if that offends your limp wrist world view, and you need to invent your alt-right bogeyman to sooth your fragile psyche, you go right ahead. Because the only place it exists is in your head, not out here in the real world.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Bigun on June 15, 2017, 04:45:34 pm
That's rich from the guy who sees the Trumpian alt-right bogeyman under every rock and behind every corner, and literally stamps his internet foot in scathing unhinged tirades. You go live in that civil moderate bipartisan echo chamber Mitch McConnell.

In fact I did stomp liberals doing nearly 20 years of politics. We control the Governor and Legislature of Iowa, and we just spent the last legislative session stomping the liberals into the ground. I stomp them on facebook, stomp them in debate in public, and never back down an inch anywhere.

And I'm not the only one. You think the Left is going to stop the aggression? They aren't. They have made themselves into a threat, and I don't back down from threats, and neither do alot of people. If that bothers some pissy pants crybabies who want everything to be peace and love, I don't care. Playtime stops when threats start.

Sorry if that offends your effete worldview.

VERY well said sir!  I fully concur!  Been there, done that,  got the damned tee shirt!

Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Bigun on June 15, 2017, 04:48:20 pm
Great, so you voted. Exactly what I advocate.

He's done a damned site more than just voted you damned fool!  And so have I!  I spent forty years + of my life trying to prevent what's coming and failed! Now I have done my best to fully prepare for what I see coming very soon!
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Frank Cannon on June 15, 2017, 04:54:41 pm
That's rich from the guy who sees the Trumpian alt-right bogeyman under every rock and behind every corner, and literally stamps his internet foot in scathing unhinged tirades. You go live in that civil moderate bipartisan echo chamber Mitch McConnell.

In fact I did stomp liberals doing nearly 20 years of politics. We control the Governor and Legislature of Iowa, and we just spent the last legislative session stomping the liberals into the ground. I stomp them on facebook, stomp them in debate in public, and never back down an inch anywhere.

And I'm not the only one. You think the Left is going to stop the aggression? They aren't. They have made themselves into a threat, and I don't back down from threats, and neither do alot of people. If that bothers some pissy pants crybabies who want everything to be peace and love, I don't care. Playtime stops when threats start.

Sorry if that offends your effete worldview.

Hear Hear!

 :thumbsup3:
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: truth_seeker on June 15, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
US Civil War = 600,000 dead of total population numbering 39000000 or about 1.5 percent

Current population 330,000,000 with 1.5% dead would yield 4,950,000 dead, make it even 5 million

for my city of 200,000 that is 3,000

Total number of military combatants in the Civil War numbered about 3,000,000
or about 7.7% of total population, or about 1 in 13, but about 1 in 6.5 males

May 1970, Kent State University campus.  Just imagine the outcome, had the students charged the guardsmen, when shooting started. The guardsmen were part time soldiers, not highly trained, and badly outnumbered.

Students overpower guardsmen, take weapons and take over the campus.  Violence breaks out in other cities.

What does the Mayor of Baltimore say? Take whatever weapons you have, and go to DC to join up with others, and take over the city and the government?

What do police in Baltimore do when handed such an order by their mayor?

What about towns like Berkeley? Do they fall to the left, and link up with nearby Oakland? And then they walk over the Bay Bridge to link up with San Francisco?

Do most blacks and Hispanics don black outfits and join with the college students, and head for the upper middle suburbs, of Houston, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, etc.?

How long until airports close? What will the military do? Will they simply stay in garrison? How about civilian police forces?

What about city police, fire and paramedic services? Hospitals? What about grocery stores, gasoline stations? Gun stores?

OHIO (1970 lyrics by Canadian Neil Young)

"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
 We're finally on our own.
 This summer I hear the drumming,
 Four dead in Ohio.

 Gotta get down to it
 Soldiers are cutting us down
 Should have been done long ago.
 What if you knew her
 And found her dead on the ground
 How can you run when you know?

 Gotta get down to it
 Soldiers are cutting us down
 Should have been done long ago.
 What if you knew her
 And found her dead on the ground
 How can you run when you know?

 Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
 We're finally on our own.
 This summer I hear the drumming,
 Four dead in Ohio."

Insofar as songs were sung about such matters before, I am not afraid to talk about this.

Four years later, the house where Patty Hearst's captors were hiding, was utterly destroyed.

We watched these events on television. That was not very far from the flames and smoke of the 1965 Watts Riots, or the later 1992 Rodney King Riots.

FYI the 1992 Riots actually kicked off with many whites at City Hall miles away from South Central. But it very soon escalated in the South Central area. Police backed away, to organize.

Police Chief Gates took much criticism, for waiting to organize, but that is actually what a policeman neighbor told me they are trained to do. Keep yourself alive, wait for sufficient numbers in order to be able to take control. Do not sacrifice yourselves one at a time, when outnumbered.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on June 15, 2017, 05:06:13 pm
US Civil War = 600,000 dead of total population numbering 39000000 or about 1.5 percent

Current population 330,000,000 with 1.5% dead would yield 4,950,000 dead, make it even 5 million

for my city of 200,000 that is 3,000

Total number of military combatants in the Civil War numbered about 3,000,000
or about 7.7% of total population, or about 1 in 13, but about 1 in 6.5 males

May 1970, Kent State University campus.  Just imagine the outcome, had the students charged the guardsmen, when shooting started. The guardsmen were part time soldiers, not highly trained, and badly outnumbered.

Students overpower guardsmen, take weapons and take over the campus.  Violence breaks out in other cities.

What does the Mayor of Baltimore say? Take whatever weapons you have, and go to DC to join up with others, and take over the city and the government?

What do police in Baltimore do when handed such an order by their mayor?

What about towns like Berkeley? Do they fall to the left, and link up with nearby Oakland? And then they walk over the Bay Bridge to link up with San Francisco?

Do most blacks and Hispanics don black outfits and join with the college students, and head for the upper middle suburbs, of Houston, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, etc.?

How long until airports close? What will the military do? Will they simply stay in garrison? How about civilian police forces?

What about city police, fire and paramedic services? Hospitals? What about grocery stores, gasoline stations? Gun stores?

OHIO (1970 lyrics by Canadian Neil Young)

"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
 We're finally on our own.
 This summer I hear the drumming,
 Four dead in Ohio.

 Gotta get down to it
 Soldiers are cutting us down
 Should have been done long ago.
 What if you knew her
 And found her dead on the ground
 How can you run when you know?

 Gotta get down to it
 Soldiers are cutting us down
 Should have been done long ago.
 What if you knew her
 And found her dead on the ground
 How can you run when you know?

 Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
 We're finally on our own.
 This summer I hear the drumming,
 Four dead in Ohio."

Insofar as songs were sung about such matters before, I am not afraid to talk about this.

Four years later, the house where Patty Hearst's captors were hiding, was utterly destroyed.

We watched these events on television. That was not very far from the flames and smoke of the 1965 Watts Riots, or the later 1992 Rodney King Riots.

FYI the 1992 Riots actually kicked off with many whites at City Hall miles away from South Central. But it very soon escalated in the South Central area. Police backed away, to organize.

Police Chief Gates took much criticism, for waiting to organize, but that is actually what a policeman neighbor told me they are trained to do. Keep yourself alive, wait for sufficient numbers in order to be able to take control. Do not sacrifice yourselves one at a time, when outnumbered.

To me the real nightmare scenario would be different generals branching out on their own and fighting, roman republic style. No clear winner in that scenario. Or is the end goal to be ruled by a junta Argentina style?
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on June 15, 2017, 05:15:29 pm
That's rich from the guy who sees the Trumpian alt-right bogeyman under every rock and behind every corner, and literally stamps his internet foot in scathing unhinged tirades. You go live in that civil moderate bipartisan echo chamber Mitch McConnell.

In fact I did stomp liberals doing nearly 20 years of politics. We control the Governor and Legislature of Iowa, and we just spent the last legislative session stomping the liberals into the ground. I stomp them on facebook, stomp them in debate in public, and never back down an inch anywhere.

And I'm not the only one. You think the Left is going to stop the aggression? They aren't. They have made themselves into a threat, and I don't back down from threats, and neither do alot of people. If that bothers some pissy pants crybabies who want everything to be peace and love, I don't care. Playtime stops when threats start.

Sorry if that offends your effete worldview.


 :thumbsup2: :thumbsup2: :thumbsup2:
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Sanguine on June 15, 2017, 05:21:08 pm
Historians are the best to be able to divine where the US is headed, because we're not going anywhere societies in the past haven't already gone.

IMO one day in the near future there are going to be a great many bewildered and unprepared people in this country.

Good point.  And, VDH is an eminent historian.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Sanguine on June 15, 2017, 05:25:47 pm
What will it look like?  Venezuela is probably a good example:
 
Quote
The recovery of oil prices in the early 2000s gave Venezuela oil funds not seen since the 1980s.[12] The Venezuelan government then established populist policies that initially boosted the Venezuelan economy and increased social spending, significantly reducing economic inequality and poverty.[12][13][14][15] However, such policies later became controversial, since they destabilized the nation's economy, resulting in hyperinflation, an economic depression, and drastic increases in poverty, disease, child mortality, malnutrition, and crime.[16][17][12][18][19][20][21][22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 05:31:02 pm
VERY well said sir!  I fully concur!  Been there, done that,  got the damned tee shirt!

Thank you sir. You know as well as I, when you get neck deep in it, you see how the Left works. Not saying there aren't some alt-right nutters out there, but the Left is far far more organized, and it flows right down from the top to the protest down the street, all bankrolled, managed, and coordinated astroturf.

Most don't see this because it doesn't splash in the headlines, but those who have gotten beyond the surface do. Little of what you do see from them is random, and they are working their scorched earth agenda with full intentions of escalating.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 05:31:34 pm
What will it look like?  Venezuela is probably a good example:

That is a good bet given it's modern occurrence.

Frighteningly, Venezuela didn't have hundreds of Trillions of dollars in debt and unfunded liabilities to sustain it's welfare state culture.

One can only wonder in cold sweats what that is going to look like here once confidence pops in an unsustainable economy based on debt and fiat currency.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Sanguine on June 15, 2017, 05:34:00 pm
That is a good bet given it's modern occurrence.

Frighteningly, Venezuela didn't have hundreds of Trillions of dollars in debt and unfunded liabilities to sustain it's welfare state culture.

One can only wonder in cold sweats what that is going to look like here once confidence pops in an unsustainable economy based on debt and fiat currency.

Yep.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Bigun on June 15, 2017, 05:34:26 pm
Thank you sir. You know as well as I, when you get neck deep in it, you see how the Left works. Not saying there aren't some alt-right nutters out there, but the Left is far far more organized, and it flows right down from the top to the protest down the street, all bankrolled, managed, and coordinated astroturf.

Most don't see this because it doesn't splash in the headlines, but those who have gotten beyond the surface do. Little of what you do see from them is random, and they are working their scorched earth agenda with full intentions of escalating.

Indeed! And that is because they have no other choice at this point! They have lost everywhere and cannot now depend on the courts to save them. What is coming will NOT be pretty but it MUST come and be dealt with if we are to survive.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 05:39:42 pm
Thank you sir. You know as well as I, when you get neck deep in it, you see how the Left works. Not saying there aren't some alt-right nutters out there, but the Left is far far more organized, and it flows right down from the top to the protest down the street, all bankrolled, managed, and coordinated astroturf.

Most don't see this because it doesn't splash in the headlines, but those who have gotten beyond the surface do. Little of what you do see from them is random, and they are working their scorched earth agenda with full intentions of escalating.

As a former GOP precinct captain in Cook County, IL - some 20-plus years ago, you have no idea how prescient your comments are given what I saw firsthand all those years ago.

It is a form of extortion being organized to the point where we will be demanded to capitulate and surrender to their total rule or they will incite their pawns to burn it all down and take out all potential 'enemies' of their progressive putsch.

For them, this is war - and a significant portion of the population is on their side.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 15, 2017, 05:46:11 pm
As a former GOP precinct captain in Cook County, IL - some 20-plus years ago, you have no idea how prescient your comments are given what I saw firsthand all those years ago.

It is a form of extortion being organized to the point where we will be demanded to capitulate and surrender to their total rule or they will incite their pawns to burn it all down and take out all potential 'enemies' of their progressive putsch.

For them, this is war - and a significant portion of the population is on their side.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Old Warrior in Exile on June 15, 2017, 05:57:39 pm
I pray that I am wrong, but in my own opinion, I suspect that yesterday the first shots of CWII were fired.

It appears that all hell is about to break loose and the S is about to HTF (feel free to add your own doomsday metaphor here).

The Left will see to it that we have no choice but to fight back. The coup with the usurper failed to destroy our Republic.

 Hillary Clinton failed to get elected. If you think about it, it's really the only move they have, now.




Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: INVAR on June 15, 2017, 06:38:08 pm
I pray that I am wrong, but in my own opinion, I suspect that yesterday the first shots of CWII were fired.

It appears that all hell is about to break loose and the S is about to HTF (feel free to add your own doomsday metaphor here).

The Left will see to it that we have no choice but to fight back. The coup with the usurper failed to destroy our Republic.

 Hillary Clinton failed to get elected. If you think about it, it's really the only move they have, now.

The Left understands what we refuse to acknowledge or recognize (because that kind of thing just cannot happen here!): sowing violence and mayhem breeds more chaos as shelves go bare and the economy reels and they think that the rest of the country will sue for peace on THEIR terms just to have shelves filled and sustenance provided.

They understand that this is the formula for iron-fisted Socialist governments to come into fullness and they know that the vast majority do not care about individual liberty or freedom beyond sex and booze and having what they want on tap.  Establishing a government that promises them everything and gives them nothing is what itching ears of the vast majority will eagerly support.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Old Warrior in Exile on June 16, 2017, 07:46:55 pm
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19113842_698975240298478_6420968437472079738_n.jpg?oh=3ad5197d11533b73f2501a61b5dd7405&oe=59E87D02)
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on June 16, 2017, 08:12:49 pm
What are we supposed to stand on as a people?   God?  He's been rejected and banned.   Liberty?   People do not want that risk.  They want 'security' and a hand-out and those well-off  think
Speak for yourself instead of thinking you speak for us all.

He is definitely not rejected in my house in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Hondo69 on June 16, 2017, 09:31:39 pm
When did the Civil War start?

When did the 2nd Civil War start?

You'll get different answers to each question depending upon the historian, but the main point here is that many would say the 2nd Civil War has already started and I would agree.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: skeeter on June 16, 2017, 09:35:36 pm
When did the Civil War start?

When did the 2nd Civil War start?

You'll get different answers to each question depending upon the historian, but the main point here is that many would say the 2nd Civil War has already started and I would agree.

After having read a little about the Revolutionary War in the south I'd say we've had two already. Next'll be no. 3.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: bigheadfred on June 17, 2017, 02:27:39 am
Sooooo...the majority of the left is concentrated in certain places. Relax people. We have them surrounded.

Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Smokin Joe on June 17, 2017, 10:10:29 am
Thank you sir. You know as well as I, when you get neck deep in it, you see how the Left works. Not saying there aren't some alt-right nutters out there, but the Left is far far more organized, and it flows right down from the top to the protest down the street, all bankrolled, managed, and coordinated astroturf.

Most don't see this because it doesn't splash in the headlines, but those who have gotten beyond the surface do. Little of what you do see from them is random, and they are working their scorched earth agenda with full intentions of escalating.
You are right about the left being organized, 'community organized', and quite well funded (and likely armed far better than most give it credit for, especially at the gang level). Little ACORNS have been growing, and the country has been looted to pick up the tab.

Now, if the people on the Right would stop attacking each other, we might have a chance against our real enemies.

I'm still remembering how Al-Qaida was going to split this county in half....
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Smokin Joe on June 17, 2017, 10:16:21 am
I pray that I am wrong, but in my own opinion, I suspect that yesterday the first shots of CWII were fired.

It appears that all hell is about to break loose and the S is about to HTF (feel free to add your own doomsday metaphor here).

The Left will see to it that we have no choice but to fight back. The coup with the usurper failed to destroy our Republic.

 Hillary Clinton failed to get elected. If you think about it, it's really the only move they have, now.
Well, they tried looting, cheating, stealing, rigging the election, and damnit, none of it worked. Full Media control isn't enough. Obamaphone flash mobs on social media didn't get the job done. Stacking the courts with liberal judges didn't get it.

Yep, they are running out of options. It's time to sh*t or quit. They aren't quitters, no matter what people think of the snowflakes and pajama boys who are just a smokescreen.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: DB on June 17, 2017, 10:32:43 am
:thumbsup:

Those significant populations are in the cities. Where food, power and water are not produced. And they don't know how to produce it. Just trying to keep a lid on hungry inner city types will consume most of their resources.

But is best BY FAR to not go there.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: DB on June 17, 2017, 10:35:42 am
Well, they tried looting, cheating, stealing, rigging the election, and damnit, none of it worked. Full Media control isn't enough. Obamaphone flash mobs on social media didn't get the job done. Stacking the courts with liberal judges didn't get it.

Yep, they are running out of options. It's time to sh*t or quit. They aren't quitters, no matter what people think of the snowflakes and pajama boys who are just a smokescreen.

What would do it is getting a ruling form a stacked SC that outlawed gun ownership which they so desire. That would be a bridge too far. That would set off the fuse.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Smokin Joe on June 17, 2017, 10:51:13 am
What would do it is getting a ruling form a stacked SC that outlawed gun ownership which they so desire. That would be a bridge too far. That would set off the fuse.
When they come for the guns, it isn't time to bury them. It's time to carry them.

They know that, though, and they'd have to be all-in for them to try that.
Title: Re: Can a divided America survive? (Victor Davis Hanson)
Post by: Free Vulcan on June 17, 2017, 02:30:27 pm
Those significant populations are in the cities. Where food, power and water are not produced. And they don't know how to produce it. Just trying to keep a lid on hungry inner city types will consume most of their resources.

But is best BY FAR to not go there.

I don't DB. Not any more. I last left a metro area for a very rural area nearly 20 years ago. Boring as hell sometimes, but I'll give up the city amenties for being far away from the powderkeg when it finally goes off.