The Briefing Room
General Category => Sports/Entertainment/MSM/Social Media => Shooting Sports => Topic started by: txradioguy on March 06, 2017, 05:36:04 pm
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Some of today’s shooters think any pistol that debuted in the year 1911 simply must be obsolete, and should be relegated to the museum instead of the working armory. Yet today there are more companies manufacturing 1911s—and more individuals keeping them as home-protection guns and carrying them as personal weapons—than ever before. Critics are at a loss to understand why this is. We who still carry them are not.
The Model 1911 was introduced in what would be its defining chambering, the .45 ACP. By the start of World War II, it had also been chambered for the deep-penetrating .38 Super (since 1929) and the .22 LR, in both conversion kits for standard guns and the dedicated Colt Ace pistol. Today we can buy 1911s at gun shops chambered for all three of those cartridges plus the 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, .22 TCM, .50 GI, .45 Super, .45 Winchester Magnum and .357 Magnum in the Coonan pistol. In the past, 1911s were manufactured in 7.65mm Luger and 9mm Steyr for the overseas market, and in 9x29mm (aka the 9mm Winchester Magnum). Wildcat rounds developed for the 1911 include the .41 Avenger, the .460 Rowland and the .38-45. And I’m certain I’ve missed a few more.
Ultra-Versatile
The 1911 can do a number of things well. The late Hal Swiggett, the first editor of The Complete Book of Handguns, shot many deer with the Colt .45 ACP that always accompanied him on his travels. And while the pistol wasn’t designed for hunting, I killed my last wild hog with a Smith & Wesson SW1911 .45, and have Saint Patrick’d my share of poisonous snakes with various 1911s in 9mm through .45 ACP.
Target shooting has embraced the 1911 for a century or so. In Bullseye competitions under the auspices of the NRA, the 1911 is the standard choice for the .45-caliber third of the game, and it’s hugely popular in the centerfire third, and many competitors choose custom rimfire 1911s even for the third of the course dedicated to rimfire .22s.
From the custom Colt .45 ACP of the first winner in 1979, Ron Lerch, to the Smith & Wesson .38 Super of today’s perennial winner, Doug Koenig, the 1911 has won more times at Bianchi Cup matches, the flagship of NRA action pistol shooting, than any other handgun. These pistols are big at Police Pistol Combat (PPC) matches, too, in both 9mm and .45 ACP. They’re huge in Steel Challenge matches as well, and you’ll see more 10mm and .45 ACP 1911-style pistols than anything else at bowling-pin matches, where it takes powerful shots to clear heavy bowling pins completely off the tables.
On the defensive side of the house, police and law-abiding armed citizens have embraced the 1911 from the beginning. The legendary Texas Rangers bought their own Colt .45s (and later, to some degree, .38 Supers) so enthusiastically that they became something of a trademark gun for the agency, and Wilson Combat has even offered a dedicated Texas Ranger model. By the 1960s, forward-thinking police departments such as those of Los Alamitos and El Monte, California, had adopted the Colt Government Model .45 as standard issue, and many more departments authorized them as privately owned duty weapons or backup and off-duty guns.
Just as generations of American soldiers came back from their wars and bought bolt-action rifles after WWI, autoloading .30-caliber rifles after WWII and Korea, and AR-15s after Vietnam, all of those generations came home already trained to use the GI 1911 .45, and therefore many bought such guns to defend their homes or wear with their carry permits. The writings of Colonel Jeff Cooper in the 1950s and 1960s did much to popularize the .45 as what he called a “fighting handgun.”
Reasons 2 and 3 are here:
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/02/massad-ayoob-1911/#massad-ayoob-1911-1
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I have a Colt/Walther 1911 Gold Cup .22. Love this gun. My brother and I would spend hours out in the woods plinking cans bottles and homemade targets and such. Someday I would love to own a larger cal 1911.
(http://www.waltherarms.com/wp-content/uploads/1911a1goldcup-beauty.jpg)
(http://modernrifleman.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/dsc_0447.jpg?w=800)
(http://modernrifleman.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/dsc_0449.jpg?w=800)
It does need to be kept clean howerver as the slide will occasionally short stroke and fail to feed the next round.
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I know a lot of people don't like Ayoob, but I've always found his stuff to be pretty good.
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I know a lot of people don't like Ayoob, but I've always found his stuff to be pretty good.
I'm just starting to get into his writing and I agree with you.
@Wingnut you won't be disappointed when you finally get a 1911 chambered in .45
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@Wingnut you won't be disappointed when you finally get a 1911 chambered in .45
I want it to go with my 1890's Colt Lightning Pump Rifle. (32-20 cal)
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Some of today’s shooters think any pistol that debuted in the year 1911 simply must be obsolete...
I don't know. Some things invented in 1911 are still handy today. The electric start on a car is one.
(http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Feb/0215_cad_starter/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer_1/par/image_2.img.jpg/1329320979380.jpg)
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I want it to go with my 1890's Colt Lightning Pump Rifle. (32-20 cal)
Those are some cool looking rifles.
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Some of today’s shooters think any pistol that debuted in the year 1911 simply must be obsolete...
I don't know. Some things invented in 1911 are still handy today. The electric start on a car is one.
(http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Feb/0215_cad_starter/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer_1/par/image_2.img.jpg/1329320979380.jpg)
LOL. Must.... resist..... comparisons to some TBR members....
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I absolutely love the 1911. If the SHTF, I need one to go underground with me. I own a Taurus version but my son has several tricked out Colt models, including a Level III model. Despite Colt's financial woes, he swears by Colt over any other maker. He and his twin have stainless Colt Commanders with consecutive serial numbers.
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Some of today’s shooters think any pistol that debuted in the year 1911 simply must be obsolete...
I don't know. Some things invented in 1911 are still handy today. The electric start on a car is one.
(http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Feb/0215_cad_starter/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer_1/par/image_2.img.jpg/1329320979380.jpg)
And the 1911 Lewis Gun is handy as well.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Lewis_Gun_%28derivated%29.jpg)
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And the 1911 Lewis Gun is handy as well.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Lewis_Gun_%28derivated%29.jpg)
I don't know about that. I have something from 1947 that does that better....
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/armyoftwo/images/a/a0/AK-47.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110215215411)
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you won't be disappointed when you finally get a 1911 chambered in .45
@txradioguy
Now see, I have a Rockwell 1911 .45ACP - I didn't know they come in a 22LR. That s exactly what I am looking for. I am gonna head over to Rockwell to see if they have one.
@Wingnut
edit: Sheesh! Rock Island... What was I thinkin?
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I don't know about that. I have something from 1947 that does that better....
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/armyoftwo/images/a/a0/AK-47.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110215215411)
I kinda like my 1928 designed M1 Garand
(http://www.fulton-armory.com/images/categories/NSM1-600.jpg)
or my 1941 designed M1 Carbine
(http://ultimak.com/products/CHM1CFinst.jpg)
Or my 49/56 French Surrender weapon
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/16/72/53/30/at_m_s12.jpg)
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@txradioguy
Now see, I have a Rockwell 1911 .45ACP - I didn't know they come in a 22LR. That s exactly what I am looking for. I am gonna head over to Rockwell to see if they have one.
@Wingnut
edit: Sheesh! Rock Island... What was I thinkin?
@roamer_1
RIA has three different 1911's in three different flavors of .22 IIRC.
The .22 LR .22 Magnum and their own creation the .22 TCM
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@roamer_1
RIA has three different 1911's in three different flavors of .22 IIRC.
The .22 LR .22 Magnum and their own creation the .22 TCM
Personally, I'd take a good look at the .22 Mag. Has just enough power to be less fussy with ammo working the action.
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@roamer_1
RIA has three different 1911's in three different flavors of .22 IIRC.
The .22 LR .22 Magnum and their own creation the .22 TCM
Yep... Already been and found out. Definitely the .22LR that I'd be after... In fact, if I can convert my .45 I'll just pack the extra parts with me. That'd be the best of both...
Already have a couple guys sniffing around for a used one... I'll have it in a week or two
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.22 Long. Low cost and low noise make it great for recreational shooting and small-game/pest control. Many times we don't bother with ear protection if we are in the great out doors just popping off a few shots at a time.
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Personally, I'd take a good look at the .22 Mag. Has just enough power to be less fussy with ammo working the action.
But there is a considerable price difference. From 6 cents a round to 28 cents and more.
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.22 Long. Low cost and low noise make it great for recreational shooting and small-game/pest control. Many times we don't bother with ear protection if we are in the great out doors just popping off a few shots at a time.
One of my son in laws fell in love with a Ruger SR22 when he was out here at Christmas.
I think that's going to be his birthday present from me this year.
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Yep... Already been and found out. Definitely the .22LR that I'd be after... In fact, if I can convert my .45 I'll just pack the extra parts with me. That'd be the best of both...
Already have a couple guys sniffing around for a used one... I'll have it in a week or two
Cool let me know how you like it. I'm a RIA fan. I've been very happy with the 1911 I bought from them. Probably gonna get their .38 special as a birthday present to myself.
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.22 Long. Low cost and low noise make it great for recreational shooting and small-game/pest control. Many times we don't bother with ear protection if we are in the great out doors just popping off a few shots at a time.
I can't even tell you how many 22LR rounds I have... A 12" deep cupboard probably 28 inches wide, stuffed full...
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One of my son in laws fell in love with a Ruger SR22 when he was out here at Christmas.
I think that's going to be his birthday present from me this year.
Nice. And the upside it doesn't cost close to the $400 the Gold Cup Trophy would set you back. Not that the boy ain't worth it...But they have to pay their dues!
But there is a considerable price difference. From 6 cents a round to 28 cents and more.
Amen to the lower cost. Less then 5 cents a round most times.
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I shot High Standards when I was in college. I've wanted one ever since. Maybe one day.
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I used to have High Standards..... :whistle:
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But there is a considerable price difference. From 6 cents a round to 28 cents and more.
True enough on the cost difference.
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I used to have High Standards..... :whistle:
I tried to shoot 'em all. Just too many of 'em.
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I tried to shoot 'em all. Just too many of 'em.
Oh...We are still talking Guns then? LOL :smokin:
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Cool let me know how you like it. I'm a RIA fan. I've been very happy with the 1911 I bought from them. Probably gonna get their .38 special as a birthday present to myself.
I already like it. My RIA .45 is one of the best pistols I have ever owned. And that is no faint praise- I am partial to revolvers and have carried 45 Colt a good portion of my life, with a brief sojourn into 44mag.
My thought is toward ammo consolidation. I have tons of 22LR... my main purpose is for trap line dispatch, though a 22 is mighty handy in the woods anyway. I can probably bark a skwerl with that 45, but miss by a 1/2" and that squirrel is a fine red mist... Not so touchy with the 22... same with grouse and chinks.
I'd be happy with a 22 revolver in my bush kit, but that's pretty hard to find anymore used (in 22LR), I don't want to stock yet another caliber variant, and if it's RIA 1911, I am pretty sure quite a bit of it is swap-able, so I can cannibalize one for the other in a pinch. That's a win, all the way around.
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@roamer_1
RIA has three different 1911's in three different flavors of .22 IIRC.
The .22 LR .22 Magnum and their own creation the .22 TCM
Are U sure? All I saw was TCM.
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Are U sure? All I saw was TCM.
The XT-22 is their 1911 in .22lr and the same model is also available in .22 mag.
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The XT-22 is their 1911 in .22lr and the same model is also available in .22 mag.
I was looking for conversion kits. They only offer kits for the TCM.
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Reading all this over the last couple of hours... I was looking at the Larger cal 1911's. 9 mil ammo is relatively inexpensive per shot. Would anyone recommend a 1911 by a maker that chambers .9's (besides the Colt Defender. I don't like that one)? Maybe the Remington R1 Enhanced?
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Reading all this over the last couple of hours... I was looking at the Larger cal 1911's. 9 mil ammo is relatively inexpensive per shot. Would anyone recommend a 1911 by a maker that chambers .9's (besides the Colt Defender. I don't like that one)? Maybe the Remington R1 Enhanced?
Is price a limiting factor?
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Dan Wesson...Kimber...Wilson Combat...Rock Island Armory...Springfield...all make 1911's chambered in 9mm.
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ROCK Standard FS - 9mm
51632
MSRP $594
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I was looking for conversion kits. They only offer kits for the TCM.
Ahhh ok gotcha.
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Does anyone know anyone that has used one of the MechTech uppers that converts a 1911 into a carbine?
They've always interested me.
(http://mechtechsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/1911-main-page-large.png)
http://mechtechsys.com/1911-carbine-conversion/ (http://mechtechsys.com/1911-carbine-conversion/)
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Is price a limiting factor?
I have 500 squirreled away in my bike upgrade fund that I have no wanted must have upgrades at present. Might be able to beg the wife for a a c-note on credit...... So $650?
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ROCK Standard FS - 9mm
51632
MSRP $594
http://armscor.com/firearms/rock-series/rock-standard-fs-9mm/
This one? Ifso... nice.
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http://armscor.com/firearms/rock-series/rock-standard-fs-9mm/
This one? Ifso... nice.
That be the one.
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I have 500 squirreled away in my bike upgrade fund that I have no wanted must have upgrades at present. Might be able to beg the wife for a a c-note on credit...... So $650?
Shoot, you coud dang near buy two of them for that if you went used (person to person)... and no intrusive paperwork either...
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I have 500 squirreled away in my bike upgrade fund that I have no wanted must have upgrades at present. Might be able to beg the wife for a a c-note on credit...... So $650?
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/rock-island/1911-a1-fs-pistol-9mm-5in-9rd-parkerized/ (https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/rock-island/1911-a1-fs-pistol-9mm-5in-9rd-parkerized/)
Rock Island Armory 51632 M1911 A1 FS Tactical Pistol 9mm 5in 9rd Parkerized
$468.42
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Shoot, you coud dang near buy two of them for that if you went used (person to person)... and no intrusive paperwork either...
LOL And that is an option when I figure out what direction I plan to go.
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LOL And that is an option when I figure out what direction I plan to go.
I paid 300 for mine with 4clips full of ammo and two untouched boxes of cartridges. And to judge by the wear in the pan and the barrel, it is in near pristine condition. The blue was worn off of it on 1 side from sliding around in a drawer or something... I traded making some oilcloth out of a canvas for my gunsmith, and he went through it and fixed it right up.
And the funny part was, a guy the owner knew owed me money, and he bought that guy's bill in direct trade for the gun (not intended, turned out to be the same money straight across) So I didn't even really lay down for it...
AND And and... I was making oil cloth anyway, half of which was for another guy who bought all the fixins (and the canvas) for the make, and way too much at that.
So basically, I sold the flag on a deal I wasn't going to be able to collect, dragged about a 10'x75' total canvas through a tub of oil, and walked away pat, with all that hardware, a 10x10 oil skin, and almost 5 gallons of oil left over...
Sometimes a plan just comes together.
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Okay, I'll be the first one to poop on this article, probably the last one as well given the preceding comments by other gun guys. But "into the breach", as they say....
The article doesn't actually describe any particular virtues of the 1911 design. It basically says "lot of people use them because....lots of people used them!", which doesn't seem to say much.
The article also talks about its ability to be designed for different calibers as apparently being some kind of virtue. But why? It's not as though you have the exact same gun and are able to switch out chambering at your leisure. You have to buy a new gun for each different caliber you want to shoot. The fact that you can buy a 1911 in .22 caliber doesn't make your 9mm 1911 any better of a gun. Each should be looked at on its own merits, and compared to other guns in the same caliber.
I've got a Walther PPQ, and it too can come in a .45 ACP, .22, and .40 models. But that ability to make the gun in different calibers doesn't make each individual gun any better. So why is the 1911 design itself, as an individual gun, worthy of enduring other than for fond, romantic notions of historical usage?
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Okay, I'll be the first one to poop on this article, probably the last one as well given the preceding comments by other gun guys. But "into the breach", as they say....
The article doesn't actually describe any particular virtues of the 1911 design. It basically says "lot of people use them because....lots of people used them!", which doesn't seem to say much.
The article also talks about its ability to be designed for different calibers as apparently being some kind of virtue. But why? It's not as though you have the exact same gun and are able to switch out chambering at your leisure. You have to buy a new gun for each different caliber you want to shoot. The fact that you can buy a 1911 in .22 caliber doesn't make your 9mm 1911 any better of a gun. Each should be looked at on its own merits, and compared to other guns in the same caliber.
I've got a Walther PPQ, and it too can come in a .45 ACP, .22, and .40 models. But that ability to make the gun in different calibers doesn't make each individual gun any better. So why is the 1911 design itself, as an individual gun, worthy of enduring other than for fond, romantic notions of historical usage?
True. No one buys a 1911 b cause it's a superior performer. Least myself or anyone I know. They buy it because, as you say, it's a 1911.
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So why is the 1911 design itself, as an individual gun, worthy of enduring other than for fond, romantic notions of historical usage?
@Maj. Bill Martin
Couple thoughts on this...
There is a civilian in my unit that custom builds 1911's...can't stand polymer guns because...in his words "the 1911 has a soul...those plastic guns don't"
So he sees it from that "fond romantic" viewpoint that you speak of.
I have to admit from a design standpoint there is a beauty to the gun that few others possess. My best friend feels the SP101 is a beautiful gun where I see it simply as a very well made small frame revolver. SO I guess in that sense beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
My own thoughts on the gun and why it's so popular 106 years after Mr. Browning and Colt made the first one...it's durable...one of those guns that you can drag it through the mud...dunk it in water an it will still spit .45 ACP all day long. The controls are simple and well placed and it's not a hard gun to operate for new shooters.
As for getting them in different calibers...I think that has to do with muscle memory for shooters that don't want to learn new controls or grip positions etc. just because they also what to shoot 9mm or .22 LR. Your hands and where/how you aim will fall pretty much into he exact same place on a 9mm Model 1911 as they do on one chambered for .45 and that IMO translates into more accurate and more enjoyable shooting.
Its like how someone who shoots an M16 or M4 can walk into any gun store pick up an AR 15 and everything just falls right into place. (at least for me it's like this).
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https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/rock-island/1911-a1-fs-pistol-9mm-5in-9rd-parkerized/ (https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/rock-island/1911-a1-fs-pistol-9mm-5in-9rd-parkerized/)
Rock Island Armory 51632 M1911 A1 FS Tactical Pistol 9mm 5in 9rd Parkerized
$468.42
I was digging deeper into the RIA 1911's and found this neet one. .22LR with a 9MM conversion!
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2016/12/top-11-1911-handguns-2016/#rock-island-armory-tcm-combo
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I was digging deeper into the RIA 1911's and found this neet one. .22LR with a 9MM conversion!
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2016/12/top-11-1911-handguns-2016/#rock-island-armory-tcm-combo
The TCM is NOT a .22LR
(http://armscor.com/images/gallery/_square_large/TCM_Series_Inset.jpg)
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Oh well. Sexy little crossdresser tho.
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The Most Popular IDPA Pistols
The IDPA surveyed nearly 335 competitors to determine the most popular pistols used in each division.
By Robert A. Sadowski on September 26, 2014
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/09/popular-pistols-used-idpa-shooters/ (http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/09/popular-pistols-used-idpa-shooters/)
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@Maj. Bill Martin
Couple thoughts on this...
There is a civilian in my unit that custom builds 1911's...can't stand polymer guns because...in his words "the 1911 has a soul...those plastic guns don't"
So he sees it from that "fond romantic" viewpoint that you speak of.
I have to admit from a design standpoint there is a beauty to the gun that few others possess. My best friend feels the SP101 is a beautiful gun where I see it simply as a very well made small frame revolver. SO I guess in that sense beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
My own thoughts on the gun and why it's so popular 106 years after Mr. Browning and Colt made the first one...it's durable...one of those guns that you can drag it through the mud...dunk it in water an it will still spit .45 ACP all day long. The controls are simple and well placed and it's not a hard gun to operate for new shooters.
As for getting them in different calibers...I think that has to do with muscle memory for shooters that don't want to learn new controls or grip positions etc. just because they also what to shoot 9mm or .22 LR. Your hands and where/how you aim will fall pretty much into he exact same place on a 9mm Model 1911 as they do on one chambered for .45 and that IMO translates into more accurate and more enjoyable shooting.
Its like how someone who shoots an M16 or M4 can walk into any gun store pick up an AR 15 and everything just falls right into place. (at least for me it's like this).
I basically agree with all that -- I was being a bit of a shit-stirrer because, well, what's the fun in talking about guns if everyone agrees? Obviously, a large part of the appeal boils down to people liking the gun simply because of the history associated with it. I personally just find it odd that so many manufacturers make 1911-style pistols rather than actually trying to make something new. After all, the only reason the 1911 came about in the first place was because someone determined that a better gun could be made.
My admitted bias is the opposite. I was issued one of those clunkers in the early 80's. It rattled, and I thought the ergonomics were poor. Then we got the Berettas, with which I was much more accurate. And since then, I've tried a variety of guns trying to find the best combinations of ergonomics, durability, and accuracy. And I keep trying them because, to be honest, they keep improving. I'm currently involved romantically with my Walther PPQ, but hey, I'm always keeping my eyes open!
And I know exactly what you mean about the AR's. There may well be better designs out there, but familiarity counts for a whole lot. Which was kind of my point with the 1911 -- the thing hasn't been a designated service weapon for more than 3 decades, so having young guys lapping them up just seems strange. I mean, I'd understand buying an old 1911, for the same reasons you'd by a Garand or other historically-significant weapon. But buying a modern "1911-style" gun, that really has no history associated with, puzzles me a bit.
@txradioguy
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I personally just find it odd that so many manufacturers make 1911-style pistols rather than actually trying to make something new. After all, the only reason the 1911 came about in the first place was because someone determined that a better gun could be made.
Making them is not odd, they sell. That is why they make guns.
I mean, I'd understand buying an old 1911, for the same reasons you'd by a Garand or other historically-significant weapon. But buying a modern "1911-style" gun, that really has no history associated with, puzzles me a bit.
That would be the odd part.
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How do you define a classic? How do you make a classic? A classic car? A classic recording? Movie? The 1911 is a legend, a classic. I don't own mine because of it's utility.
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My first handgun was the Ruger standard auto. I liked it a lot. Then while in the service I purchased a Ruger Single Six and a S&W Model 36, 3in bbl. I had picked up a book on area aiming, so that was the technique that my roommate and I utilized in our practice sessions. I was stationed in Pensacola and we either shot in the many tree farms or sand pits. I most exclusively shot single action. I expected triggers to be light, minimum travel and clean breaking. I shot a 1911 and a HI power friends had, but was not impressed the the accuracy of the 2 guns I shot. In college I took a “Problem Analysis and Decision Making Course”. One day a week was lecture. One day was pistol marksmanship. We shot High Standard Supermatics. I’ve wanted a High Standard ever since. Then I got to shoot a friend’s Colt Gold Cup. I was highly impressed. Very accurate and it had a great trigger. I’d love one , but I’m too cheap to buy one. My problem is I’ll buy several inexpensive items that it total cost more that the expensive one. Now my Son doesn’t have that problem. I’ve shot his FNs, SIGs and CZs. I really liked shooting his CZ75 so I picked up a LOE trade-in(remember I’m cheap). It has a light single action trigger pull. I just have to get used to its travel. I’m trying to unlearn my tendency to be a bullseye shooter and try to become more of a Practical Pistol Shooter. My carry gun currently is the pipsqueak Kel tec P32. Because its small, but I Hate the DAO trigger. I also have LOE trade-in CZ70 and CZ83. I think I’ll start carrying one of those, or the CZ75.
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I like and own and have other handguns,but unless I am going out in the woods where I might meet a grizzly,one 1911A1 version or another is what I carry if I suspect there is any chance of running into a social disturbance.
I no longer live in a large city so I carry my 5 shot 44 Special revolver with a bobbed hammer spur,no sights,and a 3 inch barrel for local trips because it fits nicely in my pocket,and because 5 rounds is plenty for local social situations. I don't bother carrying reloads,either. By the time I have shot 5 times there is going to be at least 3 or 4 guns laying around already loaded that nobody is using,so I won't need reloads.
If going to a major city chances are I will be carrying one of my 1911's and a spare loaded magazine,though.
I remember stopping to refuel my truck in Atlanta one night a few years ago. Not a white face in sight,but there were several teens on bicycles hanging around a bank of payphones,and the clerk was sitting behind bulletproof glass. I could see the locals eyeing me and trying to figure out if I am a cop decoy sent out to try to bust them for attempted armed robbery,or a stupid cracka vic-tum they could rob and attack .For wahtever reason they decided to not take a chance,so I finished fueling up and hit the road again. No way I was even going to leave my truck alone to go try to buy a soft drink or bag of potato chips with that crowd of Dindu Nuffins hanging around.
I don't mind telling you I was wishing I had a 30 cal belt-fed of one type or another. Or at least a SAW or RPD.
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I don't know about that. I have something from 1947 that does that better....
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/armyoftwo/images/a/a0/AK-47.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110215215411)
@Frank Cannon
No,it doesn't. The round the AK fires makes it a mouse gun compared to the .303 British round the Lewis fires.
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@txradioguy
Now see, I have a Rockwell 1911 .45ACP - I didn't know they come in a 22LR. That s exactly what I am looking for. I am gonna head over to Rockwell to see if they have one.
@Wingnut
edit: Sheesh! Rock Island... What was I thinkin?
@roamer_1
I don't know about Rock Island,but Colt was making 22LR conversion kits for 1911's since at least the 1930's. IF they still make them,it has to be a lot cheaper than buying a complete new handgun.
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I kinda like my 1928 designed M1 Garand
(http://www.fulton-armory.com/images/categories/NSM1-600.jpg)
or my 1941 designed M1 Carbine
(http://ultimak.com/products/CHM1CFinst.jpg)
Or my 49/56 French Surrender weapon
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/16/72/53/30/at_m_s12.jpg)
@Elderberry
Oh yeah,on the Garand! One of the finest pieces of engineering that has ever hit a battlefield.
The M-1 carbine is next door to useless. I personally know a man that was shot in the back 4 times with one while he stood at a sink shaving,and he strangled the shooter to death and walked to the dispensary. Yeah,a lung collapsed once he got there and he probably would have died if it hadn't been close,but the lesson to learn here is he strangled the shooter to death and walked away. OK for head shots,but not for torso.
Never shot or handled the French rifle. IF it's the 8mm Lebel it would be ok if it didn't jam after the first shot.
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Never shot or handled the French rifle. IF it's the 8mm Lebel it would be ok if it didn't jam after the first shot.
Not a Lebel. I had a Berthier M1916 Carbine that shot the Lebel.
I was looking for a FN-49 when I found the MAS 49/59 for some $250. I am please with its accuracy and it has never jammed for me. I just have to look out for corrosive surplus ammo. But new ammo is not a problem. It gained a bad reputation from Century Arms butchering them in their conversion to .308.
The MAS-49/56 is a semi-automatic gas-operated shoulder-fired main battle rifle chambered for the 7.5 x 54 French caliber. The MAS-49 was formally adopted by the French Army in July 1949. [Example below] The MAS 49/56 is an upgraded version that entered in service in… you guessed it … 1956. The major improvements (shorter barrel, shorter fore-end, grenade launching capability) were a direct result of feedback from troops fighting in Algeria and Vietnam (i.e. the First Indochina War against the Viet Minh).
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/joe-grine/gun-review-mas-4956-fusil-semi-automatique-modele-1949-1956/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/joe-grine/gun-review-mas-4956-fusil-semi-automatique-modele-1949-1956/)
http://www.virdea.net/french/mas-auto.html (http://www.virdea.net/french/mas-auto.html)
@sneakypete
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I was looking for a FN-49 when I found the MAS 49/59 for some $250.
Looks like a good buy for what is a rare military rifle here. Probably everywhere these days.
I am please with its accuracy and it has never jammed for me. I just have to look out for corrosive surplus ammo.
That used to be a problem with Garands too,but Clinton took care of that by dumping all the surplus 30-06 in the Atlantic,and banning the importation of it into the US. If you want to shoot a Garand anymore,you had better reload or be rich.
But new ammo is not a problem.
That's a surprise. Where does it come from?
The MAS-49/56 is a semi-automatic gas-operated shoulder-fired main battle rifle chambered for the 7.5 x 54 French caliber. The MAS-49 was formally adopted by the French Army in July 1949. [Example below] The MAS 49/56 is an upgraded version that entered in service in… you guessed it … 1956. The major improvements (shorter barrel, shorter fore-end, grenade launching capability) were a direct result of feedback from troops fighting in Algeria and Vietnam (i.e. the First Indochina War against the Viet Minh).
Do you reload for it Commercial ammo has to be pricey. What kind of bullet selection is available?
BTW,if you ever get your hands on some "mad money" you don't have to spend on necessities,you might want to invest in a FN-FAL. They are a lot pricier than they used to be back when the parts kits were coming in and you could buy a new semi-auto receiver and bolt one together,but it is one MIGHTY fine rifle.
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Looks like a good buy for what is a rare military rifle here. Probably everywhere these days.
Not as common as they once were. Prices have gone up to the $500-$700 range.
That used to be a problem with Garands too,but Clinton took care of that by dumping all the surplus 30-06 in the Atlantic,and banning the importation of it into the US. If you want to shoot a Garand anymore,you had better reload or be rich.
I bought a lot of surplus 30-06 from http://www.ammogarand.com/ (http://www.ammogarand.com/) and a case of Hornady Match from CMP. pricey though.
That's a surprise. Where does it come from?
Priv Partisan $15-16 a box.
Do you reload for it Commercial ammo has to be pricey. What kind of bullet selection is available?
It shoots a .308 bullet, the Partisan is 139gr, I reload mostly. You can now find cases, but I started out using 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser brass. And CCI -M34 primers are a must to prevent slam fires.
BTW,if you ever get your hands on some "mad money" you don't have to spend on necessities,you might want to invest in a FN-FAL. They are a lot pricier than they used to be back when the parts kits were coming in and you could buy a new semi-auto receiver and bolt one together,but it is one MIGHTY fine rifle.
My Son has one, its nice. But what I'd really like is his .308 SCAR.
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It shoots a .308 bullet,
I thought it was a 7.5MM? Has it been rebarreled?
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I thought it was a 7.5MM? Has it been rebarreled?
That's just what they call it. Bullet dia is .3075. .308 works fine. I think 7.5mm describes the bore dia. Not the groove dia.
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My first handgun was the Ruger standard auto. I liked it a lot. Then while in the service I purchased a Ruger Single Six and a S&W Model 36, 3in bbl. I had picked up a book on area aiming, so that was the technique that my roommate and I utilized in our practice sessions. I was stationed in Pensacola and we either shot in the many tree farms or sand pits. I most exclusively shot single action. I expected triggers to be light, minimum travel and clean breaking. I shot a 1911 and a HI power friends had, but was not impressed the the accuracy of the 2 guns I shot. In college I took a “Problem Analysis and Decision Making Course”. One day a week was lecture. One day was pistol marksmanship. We shot High Standard Supermatics. I’ve wanted a High Standard ever since. Then I got to shoot a friend’s Colt Gold Cup. I was highly impressed. Very accurate and it had a great trigger. I’d love one , but I’m too cheap to buy one. My problem is I’ll buy several inexpensive items that it total cost more that the expensive one. Now my Son doesn’t have that problem. I’ve shot his FNs, SIGs and CZs. I really liked shooting his CZ75 so I picked up a LOE trade-in(remember I’m cheap). It has a light single action trigger pull. I just have to get used to its travel. I’m trying to unlearn my tendency to be a bullseye shooter and try to become more of a Practical Pistol Shooter. My carry gun currently is the pipsqueak Kel tec P32. Because its small, but I Hate the DAO trigger. I also have LOE trade-in CZ70 and CZ83. I think I’ll start carrying one of those, or the CZ75.
One of the gun stores I frequent has the CZ clone EAA Wittness for $299. Very tempting.
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One of the gun stores I frequent has the CZ clone EAA Wittness for $299. Very tempting.
@txradioguy
Don't be tempted. If you do,you will once again have buyers remorse. Go ahead and buy what you want to start with and be done with it.
And you can't go wrong with a CZ. I've been lusting after the police model in 40 S&W for a few years now,but I already have a bunch of guns I never shoot anymore,so why spend the money on another one that is just going to sit in a drawer?
Not to mention "Why buy another caliber I don't have so I have to buy new dies,new brass,and new bullets because nothing I already have will work with the new one.
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One of the gun stores I frequent has the CZ clone EAA Wittness for $299. Very tempting.
"Now, for the bad: Through independent, real-world research of my own on forums and message boards, I have heard quite a few negative things about the Witness line. Mainly, the larger caliber setups tend to crack at the frame or slide. However, most of the people who bought 9mm Witnesses report no problems, but the 10mm and .45 versions seem to let go easily. Just food for thought."
http://www.guns.com/review/review-of-the-clone-the-eaa-witness/ (http://www.guns.com/review/review-of-the-clone-the-eaa-witness/)
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"Now, for the bad: Through independent, real-world research of my own on forums and message boards, I have heard quite a few negative things about the Witness line. Mainly, the larger caliber setups tend to crack at the frame or slide. However, most of the people who bought 9mm Witnesses report no problems, but the 10mm and .45 versions seem to let go easily. Just food for thought."
http://www.guns.com/review/review-of-the-clone-the-eaa-witness/ (http://www.guns.com/review/review-of-the-clone-the-eaa-witness/)
Yeah I read that review. The one I was looking at was 9mm. Despite the price I think I'm crossing it off my next gun buy list.
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@roamer_1
I don't know about Rock Island,but Colt was making 22LR conversion kits for 1911's since at least the 1930's. IF they still make them,it has to be a lot cheaper than buying a complete new handgun.
@sneakypete
Well, first off, the only NEW gun I have ever bought in my life is my current 45/70 carbine... and only two guns I have ever owned were purchased in a condition wherein I would have to fill out paperwork... I have been told to expect $200-$250 for a RIA 1911 22LR in fair condition on the used market... That's not significant. And I can get a 22LR revolver for way less than that.
The interesting conundrum is this(and why I am considering/desiring it): IF I go with a 1911 for the 22LR will I be able to cannibalize that gun to repair a damaged .45ACP 1911 in the woods?If I just get a conversion, that answer is necessarily no, as the conversion is going to contain only the parts that are different (which is why they are needed in a conversion) - I don't get to cannibalize in that case, and I am carrying no 'spare' parts beyond the small collection already present in my repair kit.
The other side of that is that the conversion is predictably a lighter carry.
But the next step in that thinking is this: The reason I pack that .45 is primarily last-gasp protection. If I am pulling that particular gun for it's primary purpose, It means I can't get to my 45/70, or it's already empty, and whatever the problem is is still coming, and by now it's damn close.
My luck, being as it is, would necessitate that the next time I actually do need to pull that Rock Island, it will be in '22 mode', and I will inevitably be facing a wounded and very pissed off griz or moose. Predictably, at that point in my life, I will regret my decision to save a pound or two by settling for conversion on the fly... 10 .22 rounds in that scenario is of so little consequence that I would have to ponder whether it would be better to just throw the thing at it and go right to knife and hawk. :shrug:
And before you accuse me of awful-izing, you must understand my particular supernatural ability to attract sh*t... It's what I do.
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@sneakypete
@roamer_1
But the next step in that thinking is this: The reason I pack that .45 is primarily last-gasp protection. If I am pulling that particular gun for it's primary purpose, It means I can't get to my 45/70, or it's already empty, and whatever the problem is is still coming, and by now it's damn close.
My luck, being as it is, would necessitate that the next time I actually do need to pull that Rock Island, it will be in '22 mode', and I will inevitably be facing a wounded and very pissed off griz or moose.
Ok,you just changed the rules. I was thinking "self-defense against thin-skinned 2 legged animals". When you are talking animals like Moose and Bear,but NOT "squivel",you are suddenly talking 44 Magnum revolver with 240 grain hard cast solids and a 6 inch barrel. You ain't talking one of these down. When they come at you they are not half-stepping. They are coming in a rush so quick it will stop your heart. With attackers and conditions like this,you need the original point and click device,not something you might have to fumble with to get a safety released. MY choice would be a double action Ruger 44 Magnum with handloads.
If you can afford it and find one,I'd go for a .444 or 45/70 Marlin carbine in the short "trapper" version,and use the 44 mag revolver for backup. When dealing with a wounded bear,there is no such thing as "too much gun". If you can back off and call in artillery fire or helicopter gun ships,that would be the way to go.
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Ok,you just changed the rules. I was thinking "self-defense against thin-skinned 2 legged animals". When you are talking animals like Moose and Bear,but NOT "squivel",you are suddenly talking 44 Magnum revolver with 240 grain hard cast solids and a 6 inch barrel. You ain't talking one of these down. When they come at you they are not half-stepping. They are coming in a rush so quick it will stop your heart. With attackers and conditions like this,you need the original point and click device,not something you might have to fumble with to get a safety released. MY choice would be a double action Ruger 44 Magnum with handloads.
If you can afford it and find one,I'd go for a .444 or 45/70 Marlin carbine in the short "trapper" version,and use the 44 mag revolver for backup. When dealing with a wounded bear,there is no such thing as "too much gun". If you can back off and call in artillery fire or helicopter gun ships,that would be the way to go.
@sneakypete
Well, I see you understand my dilemma (hence my nearly made decision to carry a 22LR too, rather than conversion)... As to your further opinion, I'll begin with this:
I stepped on a wolverine.
I know that sounds unlikely, even impossible, but there it is. One moment I was innocently stepping over a log, wherein I felt an unexpected squish... And then, I was quite literally catapulted into a life-changing event of no small consequence...
To cut a long story short, my takeaway from that event left me with sure wisdom.
First, quick-draw artistry is vastly underrated. In an unexpected event, timing is measured in it's most fundamental increment.
Second: Getting that hogleg out and centered is greatly affected by surprise and environmental distractions... As if stepping on a wolverine is not altogether enough, someone seemingly right next to me was screaming like a little girl - Who ought to have her mouth washed out with soap.
Third: You must be able to shoot with your own poop in your eyes.
Fourth: Your opponent might not care whatsoever if he gets your poop in his eyes - He may well press on unaffected in any way.
And lastly (and to your point): One must be able to shoot accurately with one hand, between one;' legs, while performing a cartwheel over a log with one's other hand.
I had a 44mag. I've shot a 50 and a 45/70 pistol too. None of them can be managed with breathtaking accuracy one-handed.
The 44mag comes close, but too much time off target. And I will need that time. That time-off-target, dumping rounds in quick succession may well only be the difference of one shot (I'd say two), but I need that shot. It don't matter as much how many you got, but how many you can use.
If I am able to take stance and measure, I can shoot the 44 pretty well one handed, one-shot-at-a-time. But with a cowboy Colt 45, I can do so offhandedly, and repeatably, with very good accuracy, almost from the hip. Not quite as good with the 1911, but it is a new form factor for me, and I was better with it than the 44mag, right off the get go.
If it wasn't for the extra rounds and clips the 1911 provides, I would go back to wheel guns in a new york minute. But one way or the other, thank you very much, but I'll stay in 45.
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If you can afford it and find one,I'd go for a .444 or 45/70 Marlin carbine in the short "trapper" version,and use the 44 mag revolver for backup. When dealing with a wounded bear,there is no such thing as "too much gun". If you can back off and call in artillery fire or helicopter gun ships,that would be the way to go.
And btw, that marlin 45/70 carbine is the one I have... i don't walk off into the deep woods without it.
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And btw, that marlin 45/70 carbine is the one I have... i don't walk off into the deep woods without it.
A gift from the family, mine is the Henry. My son the Marlin. Each has its pluses. Both are good. He and I load our own. We will each pop open a beer and start loading. About two hours later, the beer is warm and we have a pile of new, gleaming ammo. We generally load the 325 grain Hornady. Gotta trim the cases, but it's worth it. Best father/son time there is.
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And btw, that marlin 45/70 carbine is the one I have... i don't walk off into the deep woods without it.
Do you scope yours? I'm debating... and debating... and thinking about it. I have a Leupold ready to go.
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I have a Marlin 45-70 whose barrel is just shy of 22 in long. I put the Williams receiver peep sight on it as soon as I got it. I see Henry has gone thru some sight changes on their lever guns. On your Henry is the front sight mounted on the barrel band or dovetailed into the barrel. Does it have a peep sight? On the barrel or the receiver? Are you happy/confident with your groups using your sights? I am happy with mine just the way it is. And it is constantly being borrowed out. I think a scope takes away from a lever gun.
I reload as well. I have been loading the 300 gr Hornady I don't even remember a 325gr Hornady. Is it new?
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Do you scope yours? I'm debating... and debating... and thinking about it. I have a Leupold ready to go.
Oh, no!. With the short barrel and carbine config, that's a brush gun pure and simple. If I got a 100 yard shot with that rifle, I'd take it... but it will never happen. Normal shot in the woods is 50 maybe 75 yards. At that range, all I am going to see with a scope is hair.
But what a rockin' brush gun that is. It goes right where you put it, brush or not. Zero deflection.
Short range, high knockdown power, no deflection. Sweet.
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I have a Marlin 45-70 whose barrel is just shy of 22 in long. I put the Williams receiver peep sight on it as soon as I got it. I see Henry has gone thru some sight changes on their lever guns. On your Henry is the front sight mounted on the barrel band or dovetailed into the barrel. Does it have a peep sight? On the barrel or the receiver? Are you happy/confident with your groups using your sights? I am happy with mine just the way it is. And it is constantly being borrowed out. I think a scope takes away from a lever gun.
I reload as well. I have been loading the 300 gr Hornady I don't even remember a 325gr Hornady. Is it new?
I have buckhorn sights dovetailed right in the barrel. Shorter sight radius than I prefer but they are totally natural when I shoulder it. I also shoot well with it since my eyesight is still pretty good.
I use the Hornady 325 grain FTX LeveRevolution. Since they have a soft ballistic tip, new casings need to be trimmed a bit. I love 'em.
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I have buckhorn sights dovetailed right in the barrel. Shorter sight radius than I prefer but they are totally natural when I shoulder it. I also shoot well with it since my eyesight is still pretty good.
Have you thought of mounting a receiver sight?
I use the Hornady 325 grain FTX LeveRevolution. Since they have a soft ballistic tip, new casings need to be trimmed a bit. I love 'em.
Are you trimming due to the cannelure location on your bullets?
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Have you thought of mounting a receiver sight?
Are you trimming due to the cannelure location on your bullets?
I may with a receiver mounted peep. I have them on several other levers and do well with them. I want to have a little more time with current set-up. Decisions, decisions, lol.
No on the cannelure, but it is due to the overall cartridge length. The ballistic tip adds length. It does not affect the charge. When I get home, I can pull out my load data if you lie and pass it along. I have a crimping tool that is wonderful. I am brain dead at the moment with the details.
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I may with a receiver mounted peep.
@Lando Lincoln
Take the peep sight off and leave the mount on there. What you will see is a rectangle that will naturally form with the front sight bead in the center as you raise it to your eyes. This gives you a MUCH wider field of view than the peep,thus quicker accurate shots on big,dangerous game. You may be surprised to discover you shoot as well with the peep sight removed as you do with it.
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No on the cannelure, but it is due to the overall cartridge length. The ballistic tip adds length. It does not affect the charge. When I get home, I can pull out my load data if you lie and pass it along. I have a crimping tool that is wonderful. I am brain dead at the moment with the details.
No need. I've just never heard of having to shorten cases to load any 45-70 bullets before.