The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Space => Topic started by: bigheadfred on March 12, 2017, 01:38:18 pm
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Training in Antarctica or on the International Space Station won't provide adequate preparation for human settlement on Mars, according to new research.
In 2016, two astronauts finished nearly a year of work on the International Space Station. NASA's Scott Kelly and Russia's Mikhail Kornienko were studied closely for changes in their physical and psychological health.
NASA touts the mission as part of its "Journey to Mars", in which it hopes to send humans to the Red Planet by the 2030s. But a recent paper published in the journal Space Policy argues that there are so many aspects to a Martian colony that it is all but impossible to simulate the parameters on Earth.
http://www.seeker.com/colonizing-mars-might-require-humans-to-radically-alter-their-bodies-a-2304346104.html
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Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. The most adaptable on the planet but I agree that technological, surgical and genetic help will be needed.
The Pandorum flick had an interesting answer to the problem. Passengers on the ship were given a drug that led to rapid adaption (evolution) to the environment of the planet they were going to.
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Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. The most adaptable on the planet but I agree that technological, surgical and genetic help will be needed.
The Pandorum flick had an interesting answer to the problem. Passengers on the ship were given a drug that led to rapid adaption (evolution) to the environment of the planet they were going to.
An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.
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An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.
Exactly. Its not so much about making humans so adapted to mars that is "human habitable" but to make it more human habitable to make us less reliant on technology to survive there.
We would still need heated and pressurized suits and shelter but pressures could be kept at 25 percent earth pressure or temperatures kept much lower. Its a huge energy savings and survivability at lower temps and pressures in emergencies is increased.
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@Quix
As in the days of Noah....
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@Quix
As in the days of Noah....
YUP.
Thanks.
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Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.
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Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.
That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.
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Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.
That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.
There is no shame about it. I think most of us see it as a good and necessary thing for humanoid expansion. Eventually earth and mars would find themselves under friendly terms as independent sovereign planets much like the USA and Britain today.
The very first sci fi book I remember from my childhood was about a revolt against earth (Revolt on Alpha C). The right and desire for self determination don't disappear with distance.
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There factually is no doubt that we will become two distinct species. For example, they will become much taller, and will have a different form of vision. To speed this up they need to breed. Breed young, and breed often. The sooner we get a few generations born, the sooner and more pronounced the adaptations will be.
This is important because I doubt the first gen astronauts will live very long after arriving because they are adapted to live on Earth. Their bones will degenerate, muscle will atrophy, among other things. However, the second generation onward should fare much better.
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An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.
The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.
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SF has been there, done that...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51snC8CehtL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Man-Plus-Frederik-Pohl/dp/0765321785/)
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The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.
Yeah, I was thinking midget sherpas would be ideal...
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SF has been there, done that...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51snC8CehtL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Man-Plus-Frederik-Pohl/dp/0765321785/)
I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
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There is no shame about it. I think most of us see it as a good and necessary thing for humanoid expansion. Eventually earth and mars would find themselves under friendly terms as independent sovereign planets much like the USA and Britain today.
The very first sci fi book I remember from my childhood was about a revolt against earth (Revolt on Alpha C). The right and desire for self determination don't disappear with distance.
Nor will they disappear with other differences in needs and resources as well. If you taxed each earthling a liter of water a year, that would be one thing in terms of resources, someone on Mars, something entirely different. Imagine earth imposed BMI and 'health' parameters, for instance, after a few generations on Mars (which make as much sense as imposing that single standard or dietary constraints on several regional genetic pools in the US today). One size does not fit all, even on a smaller than interplanetary scale.
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Before or after having to fight off "The Belters"
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Before or after having to fight off "The Belters"
I see the 'belters' as being in much the same position as those of us who live in states that provide the raw materials of industry. We get paid little for the materials, get sold back the products at insane markups, and get taxed on all of it by people who never get their fingernails dirty.
In almost every human conflict, there are reasons for one side or the other to be aggrieved. Belters won't be any happier about a 'corporate' in some city on Earth making decisions about what they "need", any more than a farmer in North Dakota likes some chairborne commando with a manicure and Italian loafers instead of workboots in DC telling them how to plant. It never has 'flown', it never will.
The only way such a federation will hold together is if the power of government is localized (and not corrupt) as much as possible. Micromanagement from afar will lead to war sooner rather than later.
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I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.
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Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.
Thanks. The reviews on Amazon were mixed. They were saying he can write like a dream but his politics ruined a lot of it for many readers.
I figured I'd go to my library this week and read a chapter or two and see for myself. I had never heard of him before yesterday. @Joe Wooten
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I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
You must have really ticked someone off.
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You must have really ticked someone off.
No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.
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No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.
I have the series on audiobooks stored on my computer in a folder called "Really boring Mars series". If you can make it through all three books, you'll be three ahead of me (and I almost never give up on a book without finishing it).
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So???
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Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.
I read his books, and yes he ruined the trilogy with the Socialist rant..
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Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.
That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.
That is how I see it as well.. I find nothing wrong being two different species.. Now that is true diversity. I happen to be a proponent of modifying the human DNA to adapt of various planets if they can't be terraformed..
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No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.
@Freya
You might want to read the Mars books by Ben Bova..
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Nor will they disappear with other differences in needs and resources as well. If you taxed each earthling a liter of water a year, that would be one thing in terms of resources, someone on Mars, something entirely different. Imagine earth imposed BMI and 'health' parameters, for instance, after a few generations on Mars (which make as much sense as imposing that single standard or dietary constraints on several regional genetic pools in the US today). One size does not fit all, even on a smaller than interplanetary scale.
Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.
I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..
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Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.
I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..
I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question for Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.
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I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question of r Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.
I see mars as more of a jumping off point and agree that the belters will become the industrialists of the system.
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I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question of r Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.
Basically the Solar System could be the Solar System like in the Expanse.
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Basically the Solar System could be the Solar System like in the Expanse.
One of the reasons I like the show is that it seems well thought out in that regard. The other is that human nature still governs the actions of humanity, despite all the touchy-feely social development sci-fi is often laced with. We are who and what we are, in many regards, and have been for millennia. It is our basic nature that leads to us explore and invent and yes, conquer, whether that conquest be climbing a mountain or taking over the next country. It's wired in in there somewhere.
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Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.
That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.
I don't think that's remotely part of God's script for the future.
imho, His script is the only one that matters.
Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.
IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.
Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.
Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
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One of the reasons I like the show is that it seems well thought out in that regard. The other is that human nature still governs the actions of humanity, despite all the touchy-feely social development sci-fi is often laced with. We are who and what we are, in many regards, and have been for millennia. It is our basic nature that leads to us explore and invent and yes, conquer, whether that conquest be climbing a mountain or taking over the next country. It's wired in in there somewhere.
I believe our future is going to more like the The Expanse / Firefly with Babylon 5 or Star Trek Technology.
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Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.
I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..
Exotic propulsion tech would likely remove the gravity issue in terms of lofting weight off planet.
. . . if we ever got to that point.
Ben Rich, retiring head of Lockheed Skunk Works has indicated we already use such tech.
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I don't think that's remotely part of God's script for the future.
imho, His script is the only one that matters.
Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.
IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.
Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.
Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
Pretty much says it .
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I believe our future is going to more like the The Expanse / Firefly with Babylon 5 or Star Trek Technology.
Understanding gravity, warp drive, force fields (shields) will all be needed to really move out, but even a in-system expansion is a start.
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Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
Pretty much says it .
Says that God is still in control no matter where I am. I've never disputed it.
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Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
Pretty much says it .
Except 'they' are not us...
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I don't think that's remotely part of God's script for the future.
imho, His script is the only one that matters.
Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.
IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.
Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.
Then there's Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."
Since the tower of Babel, humans have been somewhat self-limiting. The libraries of Alexandria were reputed to have cures for cancer, for instance.
Every time we get close, someone decides to burn the books. In fact, that's how my mother referred to the cataclysmic episodes in human history as "burning the books" (and perhaps why we had a library at home).
We're close, as a species, to burning the books again and entering another dark age--if not the end of ages. Either we step out and 'conquer' in that more philosophical sense, or we will likely devolve into another century of bloodletting, despite there being plenty of resources.
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Understanding gravity, warp drive, force fields (shields) will all be needed to really move out, but even a in-system expansion is a start.
That is why in the next 100 years The Expanse will be our future (hopefully the UN is not running things).
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Mars vs Earth seems inevitable. The Earthlings will have pretty much footed the bill for everything, but the second or third generation Martians will likely see any Earth dominance (like taxation) over Mars as tyranny. Getting much farther out than Mars, we need to simply accept that the "colonists" represent an independent "nation".
Lately I've been thinking about a world with no FTL, wormholes, inertial dampeners, etc. Kind of makes inter-system war of any kind but all out invade and conquer obsolete. With communication times measured in years and travel times measured in generations, who is going to want to get on a ship to attack another planet when the war might be over long before you get there? An interesting twist is to also disallow hybernation, so the "soldiers" who embark will not be the ones doing the fighting, their job will be to raise families so their great great grandchildren will be the soldiers.
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This vid I posted has the truth about Mars in the first part. I found it entertaining. ^-^
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,253765.msg1258627.html#msg1258627
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Except 'they' are not us...
How do you interpret that term in that context?
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Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.
Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Alienigena.jpg)
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Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.
Those humans can run the sleeper ships while the normal humans is in stasis.. Did I just open a can of worms with that comment??
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Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Alienigena.jpg)
After I said it I had the same thought. I just described the greys. :silly:
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Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...
@Cripplecreek
Soooo, we are already there and all we need to do is get in touch with ourselves.
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Those humans can run the sleeper ships while the normal humans is in stasis.. Did I just open a can of worms with that comment??
Might as well have robots for that. Although there is the speculation the greys are just that.
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This vid I posted has the truth about Mars in the first part. I found it entertaining. ^-^
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,253765.msg1258627.html#msg1258627
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Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.
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I forced myself to watch the whole thing simply out of respect for you as a person and my telling you I'd watch it.
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It is difficult for me to think a the tiniest part of it that I'd consider solid truth.
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The whole thing and every significant part of it strikes me as a mangled together bunch of new age deception.
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I do not doubt that the dark lord has been busy for millennia concocting layers upon layers and elaborations upon elaborations toward the END TIMES GREAT DECEPTION.
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I do not doubt that such a video could conceivably seduce millions of folks to follow the yellow brick road to satanic tyranny of the worst order.
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It may be good for me to be more aware of where such 'constructions on' "reality" currently are in some spheres of philosophical thought.
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However, i don't plan to needlessly spend that much time with that much blatant, deceptive stuff ever again.
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Cheers.
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Might as well have robots for that. Although there is the speculation the greys are just that.
Be careful with that...."Good Morning, Doctor Chandra, I am ready for my first lesson."
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@Quix
Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.
Sorry, but that comment giggles me. Mostly because I so agree with you. I'm pretty sure the look of dumbfounded amazement never left my face the whole show thru. :laugh:
(I told it was something else) ^-^
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@Quix
Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.
Sorry, but that comment giggles me. Mostly because I so agree with you. I'm pretty sure the look of dumbfounded amazement never left my face the whole show thru. :laugh:
(I told it was something else) ^-^
That's a relief. Glad we see it similarly.
Cheers.
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How do you interpret that term in that context?
Look at the bloodline of Esau... You will find him to be the progenitor of Amalek. The Amalekites == Nephilim
Then, perhaps, read Obediah again.
:seeya:
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Look at the bloodline of Esau... You will find him to be the progenitor of Amalek. The Amalekites == Nephilim
Then, perhaps, read Obediah again.
:seeya:
I simply asked you who you interpreted "they" to be.
I'm not interested in a long research study or rabbit trail at this time.
Sigh.
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@Freya
You might want to read the Mars books by Ben Bova..
Will do.
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I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
It's supposed to be one of the great series of SF, but considering when it was published and what was happening in the SF world at the time (the takeover of the publishing world by the Leftists) I don't know if you can trust the reviews that say it was great. I've never read it, but I have read another work by Kim Stanley Robinson (a book named "Icehenge", which was a collection of three loosely-related stories) and found it so infused with his Leftist politics and world-view that to me it was a really unpleasant read. So based on that experience I wouldn't recommend Robinson as a writer, YMMV.
The book that I listed, "Man Plus", is also kind of dark and depressing, in that while the project succeeds in changing the protagonist into a being that can survive on Mars unaided, he is so changed in the process that by the end it's difficult to consider him human. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend that book as a good time, either. :shrug:
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I simply asked you who you interpreted "they" to be.
I'm not interested in a long research study or rabbit trail at this time.
Sigh.
Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.
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Except 'they' are not us...
How do you interpret that term in that context?
The vision of Obadiah.
This is what the Sovereign Lord says about Edom—
We have heard a message from the Lord:
An envoy was sent to the nations to say,
“Rise, let us go against her for battle”—
“See, I will make you small among the nations;
you will be utterly despised.
The pride of your heart has deceived you,
you who live in the clefts of the rocksa
and make your home on the heights,
you who say to yourself,
‘Who can bring me down to the ground?’
Though you soar like the eagle
and make your nest among the stars,
from there I will bring you down,”
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Edom was not followers of Yahweh
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Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.
I don't see any religious issues with going to space as long we continue to honor and keep faith in God. After all, God created the entire universe and its all his domain.
One cool thing about "The Expanse" series is the inclusion and even prominence of religion in the series. So far Mormons have been prominent but I know from reading ahead that Methodists and other Christian sects will play a prominent role in the expansion of mankind in the series.
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Edom was not followers of Yahweh
@thackney
It necessarily MUST go deeper than merely that, lest one must admit that anyone with a hint of Edom's blood is predisposed and predetermined to go to hell, hence thwarting justice. It would be a fun conversation, but not for here...
@Quix
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I don't see any religious issues with going to space as long we continue to honor and keep faith in God. After all, God created the entire universe and its all his domain.
The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.
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The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.
Exactly. Alter the environment, keep people people. After all we live in places on earth we'd never survive without shelter, and the people who live and work there, while adapted to the environments through countless generations, are still people. Sherpas, Inuit, Bushmen, are still human, but live at altitudes and in climates many would have difficulty surviving, even it that takes a particular skill set to do so.
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Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.
Thanks.
imho . . . it could be construed that the sentence refers to the human Edomites . . . and by extrapolation . . . mankind.
It doesn't seem to me that the "if you make your nest among the stars," would not refer to angelic--fallen or not--angels who would already be 'among the stars.'
= = =
imho, the point of that Scripture is that God is noting HIS power to humble--to bring 'down' all who would presume to claim any kind of lofty 'perch.'
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The vision of Obadiah.
This is what the Sovereign Lord says about Edom—
We have heard a message from the Lord:
An envoy was sent to the nations to say,
“Rise, let us go against her for battle”—
“See, I will make you small among the nations;
you will be utterly despised.
The pride of your heart has deceived you,
you who live in the clefts of the rocksa
and make your home on the heights,
you who say to yourself,
‘Who can bring me down to the ground?’
Though you soar like the eagle
and make your nest among the stars,
from there I will bring you down,”
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Edom was not followers of Yahweh
Thanks.
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The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.
I'm not sure there is a religious or ethical issue in this situation. After all we're not talking about useless cosmetic alterations or sex changes. Mostly we're talking about things that would be unseen but help humans to survive and even thrive in extreme environments.
I was watching a science show just the other day about isolated populations of people and how they've adapted to their environments over generations. One group lives miles from land on boats ans stilt houses. They have better vision underwater than in air and can hold their breath for several minutes. They also are very tolerant of pressure changes.
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The prohibition is against chimeras. Environmental adaptations are one thing. Manbearpig another.
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The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.
Good idea. I'll have to look if any research has been done on that.
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Since the tower of Babel, humans have been somewhat self-limiting. The libraries of Alexandria were reputed to have cures for cancer, for instance.
Every time we get close, someone decides to burn the books. In fact, that's how my mother referred to the cataclysmic episodes in human history as "burning the books" (and perhaps why we had a library at home).
We're close, as a species, to burning the books again and entering another dark age--if not the end of ages. Either we step out and 'conquer' in that more philosophical sense, or we will likely devolve into another century of bloodletting, despite there being plenty of resources.
This time I'm afraid that the 'burning of books' will be from those that seek to take our tech and bite us on the butt with out. Rather than Babylon 5 or Star Trek, our future seems to be going down the road of Orwell, Huxley, The Matrix, Terminator, and the Borg all wrapped into one.
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Thanks.
imho . . . it could be construed that the sentence refers to the human Edomites . . . and by extrapolation . . . mankind.
Then one must logically believe that all who spring from Edom - Idumea - Are doomed to hell. Predestined, to align with prophecy. I don't think that to be true. It voids justice and free will among the children of Adam. That there are those who are not eligible among the sons of Adam, who have no part in the grace delivered in the person of Yeshua.
That cannot be, as it thwarts the very intent of EVERYTHING - To SAVE the Sons of Adam (not Israel, not Christians, but ALL mankind).
Hoomin beans who do not qualify are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, which necessarily admits they were natively written in (in order to be blotted out)...
There is only one kind that were never written IN the Book of Life, who qualify for that predestined lack of mercy, and who must necessarily not be hoomins.
It doesn't seem to me that the "if you make your nest among the stars," would not refer to angelic--fallen or not--angels who would already be 'among the stars.'
Well, I dare say the Fallen are n longer among the stars.... but the prophecy would be toward their seed.
imho, the point of that Scripture is that God is noting HIS power to humble--to bring 'down' all who would presume to claim any kind of lofty 'perch.'
While that is true enough, the doom against any who bear the blood of Esau would seem unjust.
But that is a long argument, and a sidebar not in line with the OP
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Exactly. Alter the environment, keep people people. After all we live in places on earth we'd never survive without shelter, and the people who live and work there, while adapted to the environments through countless generations, are still people. Sherpas, Inuit, Bushmen, are still human, but live at altitudes and in climates many would have difficulty surviving, even it that takes a particular skill set to do so.
But start messing with genetics... with what is by definition 'human', and where will it stop?
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I'm not sure there is a religious or ethical issue in this situation. After all we're not talking about useless cosmetic alterations or sex changes. Mostly we're talking about things that would be unseen but help humans to survive and even thrive in extreme environments.
How much of the human genome is sufficient to be called 'human'? Where, pray tell, is the new line to be drawn? And what guarantees that line to remain even there.
This is precisely ethical and religious. It is messin with the very engine of creation. It is not merely against Moses - It is against Eden.
I was watching a science show just the other day about isolated populations of people and how they've adapted to their environments over generations. One group lives miles from land on boats ans stilt houses. They have better vision underwater than in air and can hold their breath for several minutes. They also are very tolerant of pressure changes.
That's all great, but there is no ethical question as to their existence or humanity. To alter genetics intentionally results in questions we'd best not even approach. It is the days of Noah, all over again.
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The prohibition is against chimeras. Environmental adaptations are one thing. Manbearpig another.
ZACKLY.
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Then one must logically believe that all who spring from Edom - Idumea - Are doomed to hell. Predestined, to align with prophecy. I don't think that to be true. It voids justice and free will among the children of Adam. That there are those who are not eligible among the sons of Adam, who have no part in the grace delivered in the person of Yeshua.
That cannot be, as it thwarts the very intent of EVERYTHING - To SAVE the Sons of Adam (not Israel, not Christians, but ALL mankind).
Hoomin beans who do not qualify are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, which necessarily admits they were natively written in (in order to be blotted out)...
There is only one kind that were never written IN the Book of Life, who qualify for that predestined lack of mercy, and who must necessarily not be hoomins.
Well, I dare say the Fallen are n longer among the stars.... but the prophecy would be toward their seed.
While that is true enough, the doom against any who bear the blood of Esau would seem unjust.
But that is a long argument, and a sidebar not in line with the OP
Those are some good points. Especially the section I bolded. People get wrapped around the axle pretty easy on pre-detestation and such.
God also traces spiritual lineage as well as physical. Jesus told the Pharisees "ye are of your father the devil"
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Those are some good points. Especially the section I bolded. People get wrapped around the axle pretty easy on pre-detestation and such.
Being raised up a hard-wound Calvinist, I know that to be true... And it is the bane of Calvinism, IMHO. I have since come to a more inclusive rather than exclusive point of view. We easily forget it is all about saving the sons of Adam.
God also traces spiritual lineage as well as physical. Jesus told the Pharisees "ye are of your father the devil"
Again, too long an argument for this sidebar, but I see no difference in the two... Perhaps hard to grasp, but I think the spiritual is more 'real' than the physical - of a higher quality. A greater set as viewed from the subset which we can now observe.
In the mean time, with our 'faith' so stubbornly couched in an ethereal, misty sense of 'spiritual', so easily allegorically surmised, we fail to see the raw, 'greater than physical' truth that is in the literal words:
There IS a seed whose head will be crushed. There is a 'they' who will 'mingle themselves with the seed of men' as per Daniel - By definition, 'they' are distinct from men, necessarily... Literally.
In a strictly legal sense it can be said that we are all sons of the devil, I suppose - That our entrance back into the House of YHWH is by adoption alone... But it does not negate the very real thing that Herod was of Edom - an Idumean - and that Caiaphas was likely Idumean (appointed high priest, and not of the lineage of Aaron) - There is something in that, just beyond what one can put a finger on.
Edom was physically present and legally responsible in the railroaded conviction of Yeshua. These, no doubt, were a physical manifestation of the doom against Edom. These ARE Edom, by blood and by spirit, BOTH.
No doubt such as these are who the prophets spoke about. Does that mean that anyone who carries the physical seed is likewise? I should hope not. But the seed who's head will be crushed came up through Edom, and actively so.
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But start messing with genetics... with what is by definition 'human', and where will it stop?
At some point the product will no longer be human. The whole reason for technology, aside from making the Mrs. happy, is to overcome our environment, to be warm, dry, cool, wet, whatever we want, when we want. We invent things so that even the least adapted of us might survive. We recognize that there are talents that are not physical, nor feats of endurance, which can and do bring about more adaptation, but through technology and not genetics.
That tech will help us conquer the stars, not the ability to withstand multiple gravities or survive incredibly thin air, for if we become those organisms, we might be humanoid, but will no longer be human.
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I don't see any religious issues with going to space as long we continue to honor and keep faith in God. After all, God created the entire universe and its all his domain.
One cool thing about "The Expanse" series is the inclusion and even prominence of religion in the series. So far Mormons have been prominent but I know from reading ahead that Methodists and other Christian sects will play a prominent role in the expansion of mankind in the series.
So far the The Expanse has treated religion very nice which I find unusual in SciFi.
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They are building human reference genomes as we speak. It shouldn't be that hard to study gene expression in certain groups, but I think there are local adaptations to environmental factors that aren't necessarily genetic.
If people start popping up that can do things outside the human norm, like climb a glass wall with their bare feet and hands, something is up.
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So far the The Expanse has treated religion very nice which I find unusual in SciFi.
Lots of otherwise great sci fi has been destroyed by pointless and gratuitous attacks on religion.
An otherwise great freebie I got from free ebooks.com was "Space-Time Odessey" by Michel Poulin. It was very well written and a great story but the writer never passed up a chance to flog Christianity.
Several hundred years into the future mankind had spread across several hundred light years to many dozens of planets. The human expansion had come under a relentless devastating and relentless attack by a malevolent alien species (the first encountered) anmd wiped out on all planets but 1 in the Alpha C system and on earth. In a last ditch attempt to retreat to earth the ships and several million humans had been somehow transported back to medieval earth where they settled.