The Briefing Room
General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: mystery-ak on April 17, 2024, 05:02:11 pm
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April 17, 2024
1938 and 2024: Whom do you stand with?
By Dov Tov
In 1938, it was dangerous to be a Jew anywhere in the world — especially Germany, where 60% of the Jewish people lived.
In 2024, it is dangerous to be a Jew anywhere in the world — especially Israel, where 74% live.
In 1938, most of the world hated Jews.
In 2024, most of the world hates Jews.
Nineteen thirty-eight was documented as the “Fateful Year” by the Nazis because it was the radicalization of the Germans policy on the Jewish people. The beginning of the extermination of the Jewish people. The Final Solution. Nazi propaganda was born and thrived, from youths to adults.
In 2024, we hear the words “From the River and to the Sea,” which are Hamas propaganda — a chant the Palestinians use to call for the extermination of the Jews. Hamas propaganda was born and thrives, indoctrination for youths and adults.
In 1938, the concept of Jewish ghettos was enacted — places where Jews were forced to reside under German captivity until their fate to live or die was decided.
In 2024, Jews have been taken into captivity as hostages until their fate to live or die is (and was) decided.
On October 5, 1938, Jewish passports were marked Jude (Jew in English).
more
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2024/04/1938_and_2024_whom_do_you_stand_with.html
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Hey, Dov, are you trying to assert that what happened to innocent, individual Jews 80 years ago is equivalent to the questioning the consequences of the actions of a powerful and independent nation state? If so, let's have *that* discussion ---- because 2024 is not 1938.
In 1938, Jews did not have a loud, clear and perpetual voice in the global arena.
In 1938, Jews did not have a "Nation State of the Jewish People".
In 1938, Jews did not have the benefit of a nuclear armed, multi-disciplinary military often operating without the interference of international law.
Let's have a discussion about the nation state of Israel and the consequences --- for good and for ill --- of the actions it chooses. But, let's have it without using the horrors of the Holocaust as a sword and shield.
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Why does RiV hate the Jews?
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Why does RiV hate the Jews?
:shrug:
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Hey, Dov, are you trying to assert that what happened to innocent, individual Jews 80 years ago is equivalent to the questioning the consequences of the actions of a powerful and independent nation state? If so, let's have *that* discussion ---- because 2024 is not 1938.
In 1938, Jews did not have a loud, clear and perpetual voice in the global arena.
In 1938, Jews did not have a "Nation State of the Jewish People".
In 1938, Jews did not have the benefit of a nuclear armed, multi-disciplinary military often operating without the interference of international law.
Let's have a discussion about the nation state of Israel and the consequences --- for good and for ill --- of the actions it chooses. But, let's have it without using the horrors of the Holocaust as a sword and shield.
Yeah, because it's not like anyone has such hideous intentions toward the Jews of today as they did back then. I mean, eliminating them by gassing them to death is much worse than running them into the sea (metaphorically speaking). They can always just swim away. *****rollingeyes*****
Honestly, @Right_in_Virginia, I don't get what you're trying to say. What the hell difference does it make if they have advantages now that they didn't have in '38? There's still a good portion of the world that wants them dead, and there's a nearby nation that would love to find a way to make that happen.
For the record, I do and will always stand with Israel. The days are evil. Stay alert.
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Hey, Dov, are you trying to assert that what happened to innocent, individual Jews 80 years ago is equivalent to the questioning the consequences of the actions of a powerful and independent nation state? If so, let's have *that* discussion ---- because 2024 is not 1938.
In 1938, Jews did not have a loud, clear and perpetual voice in the global arena.
In 1938, Jews did not have a "Nation State of the Jewish People".
In 1938, Jews did not have the benefit of a nuclear armed, multi-disciplinary military often operating without the interference of international law.
Let's have a discussion about the nation state of Israel and the consequences --- for good and for ill --- of the actions it chooses. But, let's have it without using the horrors of the Holocaust as a sword and shield.
What exactly do you have against the state of Israel? They're the only well-functioning democracy in the Mideast beset by a bevy a third world autocracies intent on destroying it. Despite its tiny size it's one of the world leaders in science, technology, and medicine.
They're a strong ally of the U.S.
So, what complaints do you have against it?
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Honestly, @Right_in_Virginia, I don't get what you're trying to say. What the hell difference does it make if they have advantages now that they didn't have in '38?
@AllThatJazzZ Fair question. Let me try and explain it this way ----
Eastern European Jews didn't fight back in the 1930's/early 1940's because they had nothing to fight back with ---- no global voice, no leadership, no weapons. Only once did they fight back, and that was during the rebellion in a Nazi open air prison.
Jews rectifying this 1938 disadvantage and gaining a voice, leadership and weapons were the essential goals of the original invocation of "never again". The Jewish people have achieved all of this; but how best to use the success to secure peace, security and prosperity in 2024 and beyond remains elusive. Harkening back to 1938 Germany is counterproductive ---- simply an emotional shield against questions few want to hear, nevermind answer.
I think it's time for an honest, difficult discussion. :shrug:
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[...] Jews rectifying this 1938 disadvantage and gaining a voice, leadership and weapons were the essential goals of the original invocation of "never again". The Jewish people have achieved all of this; [...]
Yet here they are again, again, even yet...
And you're on the wrong side of it.
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Yet here they are again, again, even yet...
Is it becoming a self-fulfilled prophesy?
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Is it becoming a self-fulfilled prophesy?
No. Just prophecy.
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Hey, Dov, are you trying to assert that what happened to innocent, individual Jews 80 years ago is equivalent to the questioning the consequences of the actions of a powerful and independent nation state?
That is not at all what he is saying. Not even remotely close.
But it is quite telling how you describe the current situation Israel is facing as 'consequences of their own actions'. Blaming Israel for anti-Semitism?
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Jews rectifying this 1938 disadvantage and gaining a voice, leadership and weapons were the essential goals of the original invocation of "never again".
Uh, no. It was the Final Solution that was the impetus behind לעולם לא עוד.
(See: Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec)
The Jewish people have achieved all of this; but how best to use the success to secure peace, security and prosperity in 2024 and beyond remains elusive.
Peace? Security? The reason it remains elusive is because they are continuously being attacked. Seventy-five years of being attacked. Yet you seem to blame the Jews for that. Kind of like Hitler blaming the Jews for losing WWI.
Harkening back to 1938 Germany is counterproductive -
Not counterproductive. Only an inconvenience to deniers.
I think it's time for an honest, difficult discussion.
This is something you have proved incapable of doing.
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Uh, no. It was the Final Solution that was the impetus behind לעולם לא ע
There would have been no final solution if beginning in 1938 Eastern European Jews had had the apparatus to fight ---- it would have stymied Hitler.
Peace? Security? The reason it remains elusive is because they are continuously being attacked.
Can we explore why?
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No. Just prophecy.
Yours?
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There would have been no final solution if beginning in 1938 Eastern European Jews had had the apparatus to fight and leave.
There would have been no Final Solution without inherent hatred of the Jewish people.
Can we explore why?
See above.
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Yours?
Nah. Yah's. He called his shots over 6000 years ago.
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@AllThatJazzZ Fair question. Let me try and explain it this way ----
Eastern European Jews didn't fight back in the 1930's/early 1940's because they had nothing to fight back with ---- no global voice, no leadership, no weapons. Only once did they fight back, and that was during the rebellion in a Nazi open air prison.
Jews rectifying this 1938 disadvantage and gaining a voice, leadership and weapons were the essential goals of the original invocation of "never again". The Jewish people have achieved all of this; but how best to use the success to secure peace, security and prosperity in 2024 and beyond remains elusive. Harkening back to 1938 Germany is counterproductive ---- simply an emotional shield against questions few want to hear, nevermind answer.
I think it's time for an honest, difficult discussion. :shrug:
@Right_in_Virginia
Seriously, what difference does it make? What is it you're bugged about? :shrug:
It seems like you're not understanding the spiritual warfare that's taking place regarding Israel. The hatred and pursuit of the Jews will be unending until the Messiah – Whom, sadly, they didn't recognize in His first appearance – returns to complete their ultimate rescue. They will be viscerally and satanically despised until then. But not by me and millions of other Christians.
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Hey, Dov, are you trying to assert that what happened to innocent, individual Jews 80 years ago is equivalent to the questioning the consequences of the actions of a powerful and independent nation state?
Now there's a nice whitewashing of the Holocaust.
It wasn't something that happened to "individual" Jews. It was Jews collectively being targeted for extermination. An effort to wipe them out completely as a people.
In 1938, Jews did not have a loud, clear and perpetual voice in the global arena.
The voice they have today is one that generally is shouted down internationally by widespread hatred of the Jews as people, usually (but not exclusively) by many of the nearly two billion Muslims worldwide.
In 1938, Jews did not have a "Nation State of the Jewish People".
If the thing that makes the situation for Jews better than it was in 1938 is them having a strong, independent state, then aren't they 100% correct in not budging on maintaining the integrity of that state? 1938 is still relevant because it shows what can happen to Jews when they don't have a secure, stable Jewish state, and if they don't defend it when it is attacked. That's why their refusal to compromise on that is reasonable.
I've always been amused by people whose contribution to a debate is that they support "having honest discussions" as an alternative to the status quo, but refuse to get specific about what exactly substantive positions they actually support.
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Now there's a nice whitewashing of the Holocaust.
Well, this may help explain some of that
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trumps-dinner-with-a-holocaust-denier-draws-rare-criticism-from-some-jewish-allies/amp/
I do not believe Trump himself is a Holocaust denier. But how much of his base is?
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Well, this may help explain some of that
https://www.timesofisrael.com/trumps-dinner-with-a-holocaust-denier-draws-rare-criticism-from-some-jewish-allies/amp/
I do not believe Trump himself is a Holocaust denier. But how much of his base is?
Trumpian/MAGA foreign policy truly scares me. It's not based on any discernable principles other than 1) Trump's personal relationship with particular world leaders, and 2) neo-isolationism.
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Now there's a nice whitewashing of the Holocaust.
It wasn't something that happened to "individual" Jews. It was Jews collectively being targeted for extermination. An effort to wipe them out completely as a people.
Gah! I could hardly believe I read that.
My visit to Auschwitz a few years ago - the thousands of suitcases, purses, shoes, eyeglasses, crutches, pony tails, photos on display - sure didn’t seem like that was about individual Jews. It was a massive attempt at extermination. Nothing individual about it.
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Gah! I could hardly believe I read that.
My visit to Auschwitz a few years ago - the thousands of suitcases, purses, shoes, eyeglasses, crutches, pony tails, photos on display - sure didn’t seem like that was about individual Jews. It was a massive attempt at extermination. Nothing individual about it.
My son and his fiancé visited Auschwitz a few years ago also
Yeah, it was not about individual Jews. When someone makes a comment like that in describing the Holocaust, they’re letting their anti-Semitism slip
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My son and his fiancé visited Auschwitz a few years ago also
Yeah, it was not about individual Jews. When someone makes a comment like that in describing the Holocaust, they’re letting their anti-Semitism slip
I have a son who converted to Islam back in the '90s during his stint in the Army. He was part of Operation Desert Shield and was stationed in Germany.
Because I have many dear friends who are Jewish and because of my circle-of-influence during the peak of my real estate career, I am a proud Zionist.
Every time my son calls me from Florida, which is almost daily, before we hang up, he'll say: "Oh dad...one more thing...F**K ISRAEL!!"
And we both laugh.
That's the extent of our conversation about Jews and Hamas/Palestinians. He knows better than to go deeper than that.
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My son and his fiancé visited Auschwitz a few years ago also
Yeah, it was not about individual Jews. When someone makes a comment like that in describing the Holocaust, they’re letting their anti-Semitism slip
I'm not Jewish, and I don't live in a Jewish community. Didn't grow up with Jewish people, and I suppose my closest connection now is a prospective daughter in law. But what has happened to Jewish people throughout much of history, and obviously the Holocaust was the culmination of that, is an embarrassment and shame to the entire human race. And then the survivors -- who mostly bought land in the Mandate from willing Arab sellers -- built a first world nation in the middle of a bleep desert. It's really inconceivable to me how so many people don't see any kind of moral obligation to help that state survive.
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Why does RiV hate the Jews?
It's a mystery. Darn Joooos.
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What is rare to hear from critics of the Israeli military action is what they propose concretely as an alternative. They'd already pulled out completely from Gaza more than a decade ago, literally dragging settlers by force from their homes to eliminate any Israeli presence in Gaza. If you send aid to Gaza, Hamas seizes it and uses/sells it to purchase arms with which to attack Israeli. If Israel tries to seal off the border completely to prevent any future ground incursions, then it gets attacked for "blockading" Gaza. And of course, even you seal the border, that doesn't stop rockets that fly over walls.
I just don't see what else they are supposed to do.
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What is rare to hear from critics of the Israeli military action is what they propose concretely as an alternative. They'd already pulled out completely from Gaza more than a decade ago, literally dragging settlers by force from their homes to eliminate any Israeli presence in Gaza. If you send aid to Gaza, Hamas seizes it and uses/sells it to purchase arms with which to attack Israeli. If Israel tries to seal off the border completely to prevent any future ground incursions, then it gets attacked for "blockading" Gaza. And of course, even you seal the border, that doesn't stop rockets that fly over walls.
I just don't see what else they are supposed to do.
Die. That's what they're supposed to do. Nothing else will satisfy their haters.
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Why does RiV hate the Jews?
It's a mystery. Darn Joooos.
How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
@Wingnut @mountaineer
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How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
I believe you have completely mischaracterized anything either of us believes.
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Gah! I could hardly believe I read that.
My visit to Auschwitz a few years ago - the thousands of suitcases, purses, shoes, eyeglasses, crutches, pony tails, photos on display - sure didn’t seem like that was about individual Jews. It was a massive attempt at extermination. Nothing individual about it.
In the 1930s (the decade that was being discussed) individual Germans were identified and isolated. The Holocaust actually began one individual Jew at a time --- which is what makes it all the more horrifying. @deb
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I believe you have completely mischaracterized anything either of us believes.
@mountaineer
You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel. I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.
How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
@Wingnut @mountaineer
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You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel. I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.
:silly: Whatever.
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@mountaineer
You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel. I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.
@Right_in_Virginia
Girl, you're not the One who's going to show up with a solution. There are certain things that can be known before they show up in the news.
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The islamites need to have their own "wandering in the desert for forty years" experience before there can ever be peace. @Right_in_Virginia
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@Right_in_Virginia
It seems like you're not understanding the spiritual warfare that's taking place regarding Israel. The hatred and pursuit of the Jews will be unending until the Messiah – Whom, sadly, they didn't recognize in His first appearance – returns to complete their ultimate rescue. They will be viscerally and satanically despised until then. But not by me and millions of other Christians.
I'm sure this isn't going to help my case, but I was not raised on the writings of CI Scofield. @AllThatJazzZ
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:silly: Whatever.
88devil
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@Right_in_Virginia
Why not just say what your specific recommendations are for what Israel should do/change what it is doing? Not useless vagaries like "have a discussion" or "negotiate a mutually-agreeable solution" that simply beg the question of what that solution would actually be, but an actual concrete plan that is what you believe to be a workable, realistic solution superior to what Israel is doing right now.
Because I think most of us have considered this situation and don't really see a better alternative for Israel. So...enlighten us.
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How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
Because you are starting from Bullshit. And starting in bullshit can only yield bullshit.
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Because you are starting from Bullshit. And starting in bullshit can only yield bullshit.
She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah. It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table. We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now. That's our position.
So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.
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She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah. It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table. We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now. That's our position.
So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.
Her position is the same as it was for Ukraine. Surrender for "peace".
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She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah. It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table. We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now. That's our position.
So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.
Nah... Her depiction of Jewish history is bullshit. What she declares to have come from it is bullshit. So from that stance, her 'solutions' will be bullshit... and necessarily not in Israel's favor.
@Right_in_Virginia
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She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah. It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table. We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now. That's our position.
So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.
AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.
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AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.
That's right - and that will not be forthcoming.
Although there is an oddity in that - The Saudis are developing toward Israel. The new prince there seems to have designs toward peace. A welcome if shaky change.
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I'm sure this isn't going to help my case, but I was not raised on the writings of CI Scofield. @AllThatJazzZ
@Right_in_Virginia
Neither was I. And I didn't become a believer until I was in my 30s. But once I did, I began to learn from the reference book Scofield learned from. The Jews will suffer persecution until the Savior returns. It's just that simple. You can't fix it. I can't fix it. Neither BB nor Biden can fix it. Not even your boy Trump can fix it.
“Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, ‘Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.’” (Zech. 12:2-3)
The Day of the Lord Zechariah 14:1–15 describes God gathering the nations to lay siege to Jerusalem and when half of the population has been exiled, God comes to deliver the city (2–3), defeating those opposing Jerusalem (verses 12–15).
I don't know God's timing regarding these events, but I do know how to discern the times. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent these things from happening.
And finally, because Christians take Genesis 12:1-3 very seriously, we're not likely to fall away in our support for Israel – even if our nation and our countrymen do.
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She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah. It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table. We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now. That's our position.
When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map. But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation. I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. :beer:
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@Right_in_Virginia
Neither was I. And I didn't become a believer until I was in my 30s. But once I did, I began to learn from the reference book Scofield learned from. The Jews will suffer persecution until the Savior returns. It's just that simple. You can't fix it. I can't fix it. Neither BB nor Biden can fix it. Not even your boy Trump can fix it.
“Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, ‘Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.’” (Zech. 12:2-3)
The Day of the Lord Zechariah 14:1–15 describes God gathering the nations to lay siege to Jerusalem and when half of the population has been exiled, God comes to deliver the city (2–3), defeating those opposing Jerusalem (verses 12–15).
I don't know God's timing regarding these events, but I do know how to discern the times. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent these things from happening.
And finally, because Christians take Genesis 12:1-3 very seriously, we're not likely to fall away in our support for Israel – even if our nation and our countrymen do.
Thank you @AllThatJazzZ for this thoughtful and respectful reply.
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AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.
pointing-up...This
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When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map. But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation. I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. :beer:
Well, I'm an adult and more than ready to hear your thoughts. This is not snark...some of the greatest minds in history have tried to resolve this conflict. It takes two sides to tango, imho. I would like to hear your detailed plan. :laugh:
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Here's the unpleasant truth for RiV and others:
There is no solution that the Palestinians are willing to accept that would be reasonable for Israel to accept. And/or that hasn't already been tried and failed.
In some ways, Israel dealing with the Palestinians/Hamas is like is trying to deal with the radical BLM activists. Their demands are so unreasonable that it is impossible to resolve them.
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When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map. But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation. I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. :beer:
BWAHAHAHAHA!!
What a classic RiV dodge. First, demand an open and honest discussion about an issue. Then, when we indicate our willingness to do exactly that, she refuses to have the discussion she was just demanding.
Not exactly the first time she's done that, either...
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Here's the unpleasant truth for RiV and others:
There is no solution that the Palestinians are willing to accept that would be reasonable for Israel to accept. And/or that hasn't already been tried and failed.
In some ways, Israel dealing with the Palestinians/Hamas is like is trying to deal with the radical BLM activists. Their demands are so unreasonable that it is impossible to resolve them.
Word. It's that simple, y'all. There is no way these people will ever be satisfied. Their hatred comes from a place deeper than even they understand.
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Well, I'm an adult and more than ready to hear your thoughts. This is not snark...some of the greatest minds in history have tried to resolve this conflict. It takes two sides to tango, imho. I would like to hear your detailed plan. :laugh:
The funny thing is that nobody has a plan. Every single peace plan people have come up with has foundered on the unreasonableness of the Palestinian position.
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Not exactly the first time she's done that, either...
Lol...no it is not
It's similar to the left demanding an "honest' discussion about race
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Here's the unpleasant truth for RiV and others:
There is no solution that the Palestinians are willing to accept that would be reasonable for Israel to accept. And/or that hasn't already been tried and failed.
In some ways, Israel dealing with the Palestinians/Hamas is like is trying to deal with the radical BLM activists. Their demands are so unreasonable that it is impossible to resolve them.
This argument/debate has absolutely nothing to do with Palestinians per se.
They're the current antagonist. Like a baseball season of 162 games is a series of 3 or 4 games and then you get another team to go against.
Iran's people are Persians. Technically, they're not Arabs.
Always assumed the cause of universal hatred/dislike of the Jewish People was one born out of jealousy...or a innate hatred of being on the receiving end of somebody's greed and lack of compassion.
The Jewish businessman...from pawn broker to banker to jeweler/watchmaker consistently displays a lack of empathy or a surplus of apathy toward a man's predicament. Complete indifference to another's plight.
But...is it wrong to behave that way, when you are struggling to achieve success for yourself and your own family?
In our own American culture the very same thing is happening between the Asian communities and "...the rest of us".
It's the reason Harvard changed the rules on Asian admissions...the same reasons Washington State or Oregon has terminated the bar exam to get a law license. The dumbing down of society in the name of inclusion.
Now it's happening in the medical field too.
It's maddening to have your opposition not give an inch on their own volition. Especially when you don't have access to your own clean water or 6 different brands of a product from which to choose at the local markets.
It's much easier to hate somebody for keeping you down than it is to clean up your own house/local governments.
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How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
@Wingnut @mountaineer
Said by a Jew hating bitch.
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How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people?
I can't believe RiV, of all people, messed this up.
The one major foreign policy achievement of the Trump Administration, and maybe of all of his achievements the one most deserving of respect, was the Abraham Accords. Trump and/or his team recognized that if you can't cut a reasonable deal with the unreasonable Palestinians, you just try to cut deals with everybody else in the region. And it worked. He essentially isolated the Palestinians from much of their Arabic support, and Saudi Arabia is even now very clearly still interested in maintaining positive relations with Israel.
How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
Precisely! Which is why expecting Israel to continue the doomed strategy of just letting the Palestinians lob rockets into Israel, and launching terrorist attacks whenever the mood struck them, had to be abandoned. Because it was a strategy that doomed the Jewish people.
What was needed instead was this new strategy of simply eliminating Hamas on the battlefield. Just wipe it out in one brutal campaign so that the days of daily terrorism and rockets finally could be ended.
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Word. It's that simple, y'all. There is no way these people will ever be satisfied. Their hatred comes from a place deeper than even they understand.
IOW, The Issue is never the issue!
As usual, it’s not really about having land. That’s a cover for what it really is - hatred of Jews and desire to force Islam on everyone.
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From the standpoint of the Israelis, how exactly are they to negotiate with rabid animals whose basic requirement is the extermination of Israel and ever Jew who populates it? To the Palis, the only subject open for negotiation is how that extermination is to be accomplished.
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Always assumed the cause of universal hatred/dislike of the Jewish People was one born out of jealousy...or a innate hatred of being on the receiving end of somebody's greed and lack of compassion.
The Jewish businessman...from pawn broker to banker to jeweler/watchmaker consistently displays a lack of empathy or a surplus of apathy toward a man's predicament. Complete indifference to another's plight.
But...is it wrong to behave that way, when you are struggling to achieve success for yourself and your own family?
That's total crap.
It's much easier to hate somebody for keeping you down than it is to clean up your own house/local governments.
That last sentence is the only thing you said that is true.
There is no such thing as a 'palestinian'. It's bullshit.
There is no real bias against Arabs in Israel. many, many Arabs participate in Israel, on the street, in business, and in government. The entire 'bitch' is a concoction for political leverage.
If people actually read history, that would be well known.
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@mountaineer
You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel.
No, you're not. You have been asked repeatedly how Israel should respond to Hamas. And I have yet to hear a single answer from you that aligns with Israel's survival.
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When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map. But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation. I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.
QED
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BWAHAHAHAHA!!
What a classic RiV dodge. First, demand an open and honest discussion about an issue. Then, when we indicate our willingness to do exactly that, she refuses to have the discussion she was just demanding.
Not exactly the first time she's done that, either...
@Maj. Bill Martin
To be fair, she did earlier call for the West Bank to be re-annexed by Jordan, and for the Egyptian Army to re-occupy Gaza. And also for the Golan Heights to be given back to Syria so that Hezbollah could rain artillery shells onto Israeli civilians from the high ground.
This is her solution to bring 'peace' to the Jews. Not really anything there for Palestinians though.
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How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people? How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?
@Wingnut @mountaineer
We have been advocating exactly that for months now, while you have criticized every single action Israel has taken to secure that peace and prosperity for its people.
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I can't believe RiV, of all people, messed this up.
The one major foreign policy achievement of the Trump Administration, and maybe of all of his achievements the one most deserving of respect, was the Abraham Accords. Trump and/or his team recognized that if you can't cut a reasonable deal with the unreasonable Palestinians, you just try to cut deals with everybody else in the region. And it worked. He essentially isolated the Palestinians from much of their Arabic support, and Saudi Arabia is even now very clearly still interested in maintaining positive relations with Israel.
This has not gone unnoticed. For someone with such a hard-on for everything Trump, it remarkable how she has offered zero acknowledgement of Trump's success with Abraham.
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From the standpoint of the Israelis, how exactly are they to negotiate with rabid animals whose basic requirement is the extermination of Israel and ever Jew who populates it? To the Palis, the only subject open for negotiation is how that extermination is to be accomplished.
Truth.
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From the standpoint of the Israelis, how exactly are they to negotiate with rabid animals whose basic requirement is the extermination of Israel and ever Jew who populates it? To the Palis, the only subject open for negotiation is how that extermination is to be accomplished.
Unfortunately, you won't get an answer to that question.
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This has not gone unnoticed. For someone with such a hard-on for everything Trump, it remarkable how she has offered zero acknowledgement of Trump's success with Abraham.
Given a choice between promoting Trump and criticizing Israel, she went with the latter.
Interesting.
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Uh-oh. They are riled up tonight ..... 88devil
(https://previews.123rf.com/images/dennisvdwater/dennisvdwater1309/dennisvdwater130900031/22541178-group-of-senior-men-taking-a-walk-in-the-park.jpg)
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Uh-oh. They are riled up tonight ..... 88devil
(https://previews.123rf.com/images/dennisvdwater/dennisvdwater1309/dennisvdwater130900031/22541178-group-of-senior-men-taking-a-walk-in-the-park.jpg)
@Right_in_Virginia
LOL! It's like you emptied a bag of popcorn into a commercial fish farm tank!
Perfect pic BTW... :beer:
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Everything anyone needs to know about militant Muzzies can be summed up on 11 Sept 2001.
None can be trusted or given an inch. And the half measures being practiced by Bibi of late is a bad strategy. They are like roaches... Finish them off!!!!
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Everything anyone needs to know about militant Muzzies can be summed up on 11 Sept 2001.
None can be trusted or given an inch. And the half measures being practiced by Bibi of late is a bad strategy. They are like roaches... Finish them off!!!!
Disagree my FRiend. Abiding by the West's ridiculous demands in proportionate warfare Bibi continues to allow the world to see what kind of enemy Israel is dealing with.
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@Maj. Bill Martin
To be fair, she did earlier call for the West Bank to be re-annexed by Jordan, and for the Egyptian Army to re-occupy Gaza. And also for the Golan Heights to be given back to Syria so that Hezbollah could rain artillery shells onto Israeli civilians from the high ground.
This is her solution to bring 'peace' to the Jews. Not really anything there for Palestinians though.
@Hoodat
I didn't see that in this thread so I'll address it now. But basically this falls under the category of already tried and failed.
First, when Egypt had Gaza, and Jordan had the West Bank, and Syria had the Golan Heights, the result was them announcing a war of extermination against Israel in 1967. So obviously, that combination of circumstances didn't work the first time.
But overlooking that, maybe she could argue that those countries wouldn't go to war against Israel now if those lands were returned to them. The problem with that is that Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza, and Jordan wants nothing to do with the West Bank. And why would they? Both regions are poort, and are hot beds of Islamic fundamentalism and potential terrorism. Islamic fundamentalists are fans of neither the Egyptian nor Jordanian governments. Both have flatly rejected absorbing those two regions. So that part of a peace plan never even gets off the ground.
The second problem is, as you note, the Palestinians essentially get nothing out of this. Even if we were to ignore reality and assume that Egypt and Jordan would take over those lands, all that means is the Palestinians would exchange one ruler for another, and not one of their own choosing. Both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank have made it very clear that they do not want to be part of either Jordan or Egypt
In other words, returning Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan is a complete non-starter no matter how you look at it.
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Why did Abraham have to sleep with Hagar ? Sarai/Sarah why did you throw Hagar at Abraham ? Abraham why didn't you trust the promise given you ?
Gotta rank up there with Adam and Eve... mistakes us foolish humans make. Would I have done better, probable not.
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Disagree my FRiend. Abiding by the West's ridiculous demands in proportionate warfare Bibi continues to allow the world to see what kind of enemy Israel is dealing with.
@DCPatriot
You act like we're dealing with a sane, sensible world. The world is frothing at the mouth toward Israel. They're suffering from IDS, and there's no cure.