The Briefing Room
General Category => World News => Topic started by: TomSea on June 14, 2017, 03:32:44 am
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'LIKE HELL ON EARTH' Grenfell Tower fire: Huge blaze rips through 24-storey residential tower in London’s Ladbroke Grove with residents trapped inside ‘screaming for help’
Residents jumping from building with more trapped inside block that contains 120 homes, as 40 fire engines and more than 200 firefighters fighting to control blaze
By JAMES COX AND ERIKA SANGER
14th June 2017, 2:13 am
Updated: 14th June 2017, 4:30 am
FIREFIGHTERS are battling an inferno which has engulfed a block of flats in Ladbroke Grove, West London.
Some residents are trapped inside the 24-storey tower, with children among residents desperately shouting for help from windows on upper floors with neighbouring flats ablaze as other residents have jumped from upper floors to escape the flames.
The surrounding area has been evacuated with police warning that the building is in danger of collapse.
Continued: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3794912/ladbroke-grove-high-rise-flats-engulfed-by-giant-blaze-as-shocked-onlookers-film-raging-fire/
It sounds like a big, big fire there.
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Footage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-40269613/latimer-road-huge-fire-breaks-out-in-west-london-flats
How the hell is anyone still alive in there?
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Do we know the cause yet?
I heard one potential cause in the comments area at the Sun that would make one think it was not terrorism like an electric short; but that might have been poppycock. Surely, they had a sprinkler system, some sort of safeguards against a huge fire like this is turning out to be.
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Nothing on the cause yet.
Depends which end of Latimer Road it is - some of the blocks along there are about 1/2 a step up from slums. I doubt they even have functional sprinkler systems.
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Footage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-40269613/latimer-road-huge-fire-breaks-out-in-west-london-flats
How the hell is anyone still alive in there?
Painful to think of... like those aboard the plane on 9/11 that knew they were going to die in the end. Good grief...
Live stream....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pStB7aCT43E
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Footage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-40269613/latimer-road-huge-fire-breaks-out-in-west-london-flats
How the hell is anyone still alive in there?
How the hell is that building burning like it's made of paper?
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I don't understand what the hell is going on here. First they talk about blocks of flat buildings and then they are talking about a 24 story tower. WTF? This writer needs to learn English.
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Per the Mail - it's Grenfell Tower, built in 1974. So - one of the slum towers that haven't been cleared yet.
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Nothing on the cause yet.
Depends which end of Latimer Road it is - some of the blocks along there are about 1/2 a step up from slums. I doubt they even have functional sprinkler systems.
There is a report of someone from the building saying his neighbor came to his door and told him to get out, that his refrigerator had exploded
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More information here:
Towering inferno: Screaming residents build ropes from sheets and lean out windows as huge fire at West London tower block engulfs the 27-storey building with 200 firefighters struggling to control the blaze
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4601902/Huge-inferno-West-London-tower-block.html#ixzz4jwlDs2NI
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I don't understand what the hell is going on here. First they talk about blocks of flat buildings and then they are talking about a 24 story tower. WTF? This writer needs to learn English.
Flats are what we call apartments, Frank.
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Flats are what we call apartments, Frank.
The term is even used here some.
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Flats are what we call apartments, Frank.
I go back to my original post. You people need to learn English.
BTW, I do not understand how in the hell this building lit up like a roman candle. Sure it was built in '74, but we have plenty of old buildings around and they have sprinkler systems, fire rated walls and other things to retard a fires progress until it is put down. This thing looks like an Erwin Allen movie.
(http://cybermonkeydeathsquad.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/poster.jpg)
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I missed this story, thanks for posting it @EC
Reminds me from a scene in your version of "house of cards"
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There is a report of someone from the building saying his neighbor came to his door and told him to get out, that his refrigerator had exploded
Refrigerators DO explode in Britain. More here @Mom MD :
Could your fridge burn your house down? You can't switch them off. They're packed with inflammable insulation that can give off toxic gas. Here's why they are the most dangerous appliance of all...
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183412/Could-fridge-burn-house-t-switch-packed-inflammable-insulation-toxic-gas-s-dangerous-appliance-all.html#ixzz4jwnOOBM6
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/04/416778F800000578-4601902-image-a-244_1497410204712.jpg)
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I go back to my original post. You people need to learn English.
BTW, I do not understand how in the hell this building lit up like a roman candle. Sure it was built in '74, but we have plenty of old buildings around and they have sprinkler systems, fire rated walls and other things to retard a fires progress until it is put down. This thing looks like an Erwin Allen movie.
(http://cybermonkeydeathsquad.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/poster.jpg)
The usual reasons - it was built cheap to house the unemployed (Council housing, we call it) and the old. Plenty of kickbacks to the local council because who cared if it burned? Not like anyone important was going to get hurt, right?
The public housing built between the end of the 50s and the end of the 70s is a disgrace. Most areas have been relocating people and tearing them down to replace them with blocks that don't actively try to kill you.
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Refrigerators DO explode in Britain. More here @Mom MD :
So Lucas is building refrigerators over there?
The Lucas motto: "Get home before dark."
Lucas denies having invented darkness. But they still claim "sudden, unexpected darkness"
Lucas--inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Lucas--inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF.
The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.
Lucas dip-switch positions: LOW and BLOW (Bruce Miller, www.hermit.cc)
The original anti-theft devices--Lucas Electric products.
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have never experienced any prob...
If Lucas made guns, wars would not start either.
Did you hear about the Lucas powered torpedo? It sank.
It's not true that Lucas, in 1947, tried to get Parliament to repeal Ohm's Law. They withdrew their efforts when they met too much resistance.
Did you hear the one about the guy that peeked into a Land Rover and asked the owner "How can you tell one switch from another at night, since they all look the same?" "He replied, it doesn't matter which one you use, nothing happens!"
Back in the '70s Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which didn't suck.
Quality Assurance phoned and advised the Lucas engineering guy that they had trouble with his design shorting out. So he made the wires longer.
Why do the English drink warm beer? Lucas made the refrigerators, too.
Alexander Graham Bell invented the Telephone. Thomas Edison invented the Light Bulb. Joseph Lucas invented the Short Circuit.
Recommended procedure before taking on a repair of Lucas equipment: check the position of the stars, kill a chicken and walk three times sunwise around your car chanting: "Oh mighty Prince of Darkness protect your unworthy servant."
Lucas systems actually uses AC current; it just has a random frequency.
How to make AIDS disappear? Give it a Lucas parts number.
Recently, Lucas won out over Bosch to supply the electrical for the new Volkswagens. So, now the cars from the Black Forest will come with electrics supplied by the Lord of Darkness -- how appropriate!
Lucas is an acronym for Loose Unsoldered Connections and Splices.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/03/4167570500000578-4601902-image-a-209_1497408027876.jpg)
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The usual reasons - it was built cheap to house the unemployed (Council housing, we call it) and the old. Plenty of kickbacks to the local council because who cared if it burned? Not like anyone important was going to get hurt, right?
The public housing built between the end of the 50s and the end of the 70s is a disgrace. Most areas have been relocating people and tearing them down to replace them with blocks that don't actively try to kill you.
Must be. I was trying to figure out how you cram 120 units into a 24 floor building that size. If it's govt' housing, that explains it.
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Our homes tend smaller anyways - our house is a typical size terraced for a family of 4 or 5 and is about 1600 sq ft. Lot of people, small space. :shrug:
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Our homes tend smaller anyways - our house is a typical size terraced for a family of 4 or 5 and is about 1600 sq ft. Lot of people, small space. :shrug:
Hell. My garage is that big.
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I don't understand how this building is still standing. The whole thing has been burning for hours.
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I don't understand how this building is still standing. The whole thing has been burning for hours.
Probably a steel reinforced concrete structure. The concrete protects the steel pretty well.
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Probably a steel reinforced concrete structure. The concrete protects the steel pretty well.
Thanks @DB
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The usual reasons - it was built cheap to house the unemployed (Council housing, we call it) and the old. Plenty of kickbacks to the local council because who cared if it burned? Not like anyone important was going to get hurt, right?
The public housing built between the end of the 50s and the end of the 70s is a disgrace. Most areas have been relocating people and tearing them down to replace them with blocks that don't actively try to kill you.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WNFQV0uzftU/0.jpg)
The first thing that came to my mind was Monty Python's Architect Sketch.
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50 people in hospitals. An unknown number of fatalities, but there are dead.
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More on "exploding fridges"...the UK is using butane as a refrigerant in refrigerators...it's "green/enviro friendly" dontcha know!
From 2009: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210334/Alert-new-wave-exploding-fridges-caused-environmentally-friendly-coolant.html
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More on "exploding fridges"...the UK is using butane as a refrigerant in refrigerators...it's "green/enviro friendly" dontcha know!
From 2009: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210334/Alert-new-wave-exploding-fridges-caused-environmentally-friendly-coolant.html
I love this line from the article "Previously CFCs and HFCs were used in fridges but these gases damaged the ozone layer and contributed significantly to global warming".
Significantly? Right... This is a religious movement where no actual facts are required.
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Wife's watching it on Italian telly. According to them, there was a fire suppression system in the block - it didn't work thanks to lack of maintenance. I'll keep an eye out for more on that from the euro news, because that isn't going to make the UK papers.
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Wife's watching it on Italian telly. According to them, there was a fire suppression system in the block - it didn't work thanks to lack of maintenance. I'll keep an eye out for more on that from the euro news, because that isn't going to make the UK papers.
Why wouldn't it make the UK papers?
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Probably a steel reinforced concrete structure. The concrete protects the steel pretty well.
Must be. I would expect a steel frame structure to buckle under its own weight from the apparent intensity of that.
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Why wouldn't it make the UK papers?
It's a council block, so all maintenance is done by Kensington and Chelsea council. Kensington and Chelsea is an incredibly wealthy borough who have past form at skimping maintenance until housing collapses to get rid of the poor residents.
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Why wouldn't it make the UK papers?
Just a guess, but I think it's a public housing project sort of thing.
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Probably a steel reinforced concrete structure. The concrete protects the steel pretty well.
I caught a video where one of the residents said the building was concrete, so that appears to be right.
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It's a council block, so all maintenance is done by Kensington and Chelsea council. Kensington and Chelsea is an incredibly wealthy borough who have past form at skimping maintenance until housing collapses to get rid of the poor residents.
I'm sorry. I don't follow. Are you saying the papers won't report on government run housing for the poor when the government fails to maintain the property? I would think that would be a raging headline.
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Must be. I would expect a steel frame structure to buckle under its own weight from the apparent intensity of that.
Ya, I doubt a steel structure would have survived that. It is pretty shocking how easily the fire moved though the building, particularly floor to floor.
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Extraordinary stories are emerging of individuals who helped save those trapped in the tower - including one member of the public who caught a baby thrown from the ninth or 10th floor.
Witness Samira Lamrani told the Press Association: "People were starting to appear at the windows, frantically banging and screaming.
"The windows were slightly ajar, a woman was gesturing that she was about to throw her baby and if somebody could catch her baby.
"Somebody did, a gentleman ran forward and managed to grab the baby."
She added: "I could see people from all angles, banging and screaming for help.
Reports (from Italy) that it was the plastic based cladding on the outside of the building that spread the fire - it was added last year as part of a £10 million refurbishment (To make it look decent for the neighbors in the big money homes, not to fix the actual problems).
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Reports (from Italy) that it was the plastic based cladding on the outside of the building that spread the fire - it was added last year as part of a £10 million refurbishment (To make it look decent for the neighbors in the big money homes, not to fix the actual problems).
So that's why there was so much fire on the outside surface of the building. I would have thought the UK would have been pretty strict on doing that sort of thing for the obvious reasons.
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So that's why there was so much fire on the outside surface of the building. I would have thought the UK would have been pretty strict on doing that sort of thing for the obvious reasons.
We do have very strict fire control laws, so I don't understand how they got away with using it. :shrug:
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I never had a reason to use this emoji until now...
:dropjaw:
Holy crap. I have never seen a tall building go up in flames like that. There was a building fire in Dubai a few years back on New Year's Eve. But it wasn't engulfed in flames like that.
When you're young and stupid you wonder why they make a big deal about fire safety in huge buildings as they are concrete and steel....
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I just woke up and got a news alert from Sky news. Six confirmed fatalities.
http://news.sky.com/story/west-london-fire-live-fire-service-chief-confirms-there-have-been-fatalities-10915010
USA Today, CNN and Fox just confirmed too. Prayers up.
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Just saw a CNN clip where they're interviewing residents who made it out - seem to be a lot of immigrants, Muslims (women with covered heads, anyway), etc.
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From reports I just read, while people were sleeping no fire alarms were sounded in the building and the fire sprinklers didn't work. If true, the body count is going to be horrific on the upper floors because as I understand it the fire started in the lower section and therefore likely blocked the downward escape route by the time the people above became aware of the fire.
This fire is going to change UK law substantially.
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Reports (from Italy) that it was the plastic based cladding on the outside of the building that spread the fire - it was added last year as part of a £10 million refurbishment (To make it look decent for the neighbors in the big money homes, not to fix the actual problems).
Dear God...I'm just seeing this on the news. They're saying there were repeated safety issues with the building which were apparently ignored.
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Company that carried out cladding work reportedly went into administration
Posted at 7:22
According to the industry publication Construction Enquirer, the company that carried out the cladding work on Grenfell Tower went into administration shortly after completing the work.
Harley Curtain Wall carried out the £3m project in 2015.
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'The burning smell of plastic'
Posted at 7:19
Tasha, who has lived in the area all her life, has been telling BBC News the impact the fire has had on her.
"The smell, the smell, the fumes, I have the worst headache I've ever had. It's just the plastic burning isn't it, it's the plastic. It's not a good feeling and it's not a good environment to be in.
"And so people are angry and people want answers, and there were many warnings, people raised their concerns and nothing was done about it."
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7:10 Construction firm statement in full
Here's the full statement from Construction firm Rydon, which completed a refurbishment of Grenfell Tower in 2016.
We are shocked to hear of the devastating fire at Grenfell Tower and our immediate thoughts are with those that have been immediately affected by the incident, their families relatives and friends.
Rydon completed a refurbishment of the building in the summer of 2016 for KCTMO (Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation) on behalf of the council, which met all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards.
We will cooperate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their inquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time.
More at BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008)
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... How safe was the tower block? The residents of Grenfell Tower had raised fire safety concerns four years prior to the tower block fire.
In February 2013 Grenfell Action Group warned fire safety equipment had not been tested for 12 months.
The residents group published an extract from a 2012 fire risk assessment which found that fire extinguishers in the basement boiler room, lift motor room and ground floor electrical room were more than 12 months out of test date. Others located in roof level areas had "condemned" written on them in large black writing and had not been tested since 2009.
The tower block was given a medium fire risk rating - defined as a a normal fire risk - in 2016 following completion of the refurbishment by the London Fire Brigade (LFB) and Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council.
But residents warned the tower block remained a fire risk. In a further blog posting in November 2016, the action group stated it believed "only a catastrophic event" would bring an end to the dangerous living conditions at the tower block.
The group association further alleged residents were given scant information about what to do in the event of a fire.
They claimed "a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter" informed them they should remain in their flats in the event of fire.
"There are not and never have been any instructions posted in the Grenfell Tower noticeboard or on individual floor as to how residents should act in event of a fire," the blog posting added. ...
BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40271723)
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BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40271723)
Oh, boy....
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4601902/Huge-inferno-West-London-tower-block.html
'Nobody on the top three floors survived': Six dead and dozens missing as massive blaze 'sparked by faulty fridge' engulfs 27-storey tower block in just 15 minutes: Residents hurl themselves from windows while others make ropes from sheets
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Terribly sad. Horrific images.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4601902/Huge-inferno-West-London-tower-block.html
'Nobody on the top three floors survived': Six dead and dozens missing as massive blaze 'sparked by faulty fridge' engulfs 27-storey tower block in just 15 minutes: Residents hurl themselves from windows while others make ropes from sheets
*At least six people have died, 74 are in six London hospitals including 20 in a critical condition after Grenfell Tower blaze started at 1am;
*Dozens more are feared dead or missing with one source claiming total could run into the hundreds. The Casualty Bureau number is 0800 0961 233;
*Trapped residents begged to be rescued while waving white towels, torches and mobile phones after being urged to stay in their flats;
*Petrified people were seen throwing themselves and their children out of windows - a baby tossed from the '9th or tenth floor' was caught and survived;
*200 firefighters with 40 engines needed to tackle 'unprecedented' blaze - residents claim that fire alarms didn't work, sprinklers failed and only stairwell used as exit was blocked;
*Residents gave repeated warnings about 'appalling' fire safety to landlord Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), whose four bosses earned £650,000 between them last year;
*New plastic rain-proof cladding encasing the building in £10million refurbishment 'went up like a match' and helped fire spread quickly from fourth floor to 27th floor - although the contractor insists it was safe;
*Dozens of similar blocks from the 1960s and 1970s refurbished in recent years have the same or similar new cladding;
*Local community including celebrities bring food and clothes to crisis centres while others offer the now-homeless places to stay;
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4601902/Huge-inferno-West-London-tower-block.html#ixzz4jzPC0Ura
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From this morning:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/13/416939C800000578-4601902-image-a-51_1497442249108.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/13/4169D89500000578-4601902-image-a-40_1497441666046.jpg)
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Last night:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/08/416872A100000578-4601902-image-a-82_1497426863404.jpg)
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8888crybaby Heartbreaking.
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8888crybaby Heartbreaking.
Yes, it is. Wow.
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Horrific and prayers to the families of those who didn't make it out, and those in the hospital. My heart weeps for the children lost.
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Death toll is now confirmed as 12. It is going to increase further - expectation is that no one at all on the top 4 floors survived.
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A prayer for the folks going into that burned out hulk to search for remains. I cannot imagine its very stable.
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The recent rehab to the building is over $100,000 spent, per unit.
(GBP 10,000,000, exch. rate $1.27 per GBP, 120 units)
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They better do a sweep to get the dead out as quickly as possible, and then do a controlled demolition (as best as can be arranged in a hurry) to take the hulk down.
If they don't, it may come down NOT under anyone's "control"...
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A prayer for the folks going into that burned out hulk to search for remains. I cannot imagine its very stable.
And the friends, family, and souls of the departed. Recovery operations are no fun, even without a questionable structure.
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Grenfell Tower fire: Muslims awake for Ramadan among heroes who helped save lives
by Helena Horton 14 JUNE 2017 • 7:11PM
Heroic residents of the Grenfell tower saved their neighbours by banging on their doors and guiding them to safety, it has emerged.
Local community centres and religious buildings have opened to help those who have lost their homes, and left with nothing but their pyjamas.
Some put their own lives at risk to rescue others.
Muslims awake due to Ramadan may have saved lives
Rashida, a local resident, told Sky News how Muslims observing Ramadan may have saved lives in the tower block, as many of them were awake.
She said: “Most Muslims now observing Ramadan will normally not go to bed until about 2am, maybe 2.30am, [when] they have their late night last meal. They do their last prayer.
“So most of the families around here would have been awake and I think even with the noise of the helicopters, it would have brought a lot of attention to a lot of residents, non-Muslim as well, [who] would have thought 'something's going on that's not quite normal.'"
She spoke of how tight-knit the community was, and how many different nationalities lived in the tower.
She said: "It’s a very diverse area, we have all nationalities, all religions. We all live peacefully amongst each other, there is not much crime - [not] higher than anywhere else. You can walk around safely late at night… we all know each other. There is a very high population of Moroccans, and for some reason we all live close to each other. Everyone knows each other.”
Nadia Yousuf, 29, told BuzzFeed Muslim residents were among the first to notice the fire, as they woke up to prepare to break their fast.
"They saw it just after they woke up to eat", she said.
...
Excerpt. More at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/local-heroes-saved-lives-helped-residents-grenfell-tower-fire/
Note this comes from the Torygraph, not a left-wing paper.
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Reports (from Italy) that it was the plastic based cladding on the outside of the building that spread the fire - it was added last year as part of a £10 million refurbishment (To make it look decent for the neighbors in the big money homes, not to fix the actual problems).
Placing a combustional substance on a high rise to 'make it look pretty'?
The London Fire Code must have been thrown away.
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Grenfell Tower fire: Muslims awake for Ramadan among heroes who helped save lives
by Helena Horton 14 JUNE 2017 • 7:11PM
Heroic residents of the Grenfell tower saved their neighbours by banging on their doors and guiding them to safety, it has emerged.
Local community centres and religious buildings have opened to help those who have lost their homes, and left with nothing but their pyjamas.
Some put their own lives at risk to rescue others.
Muslims awake due to Ramadan may have saved lives
Rashida, a local resident, told Sky News how Muslims observing Ramadan may have saved lives in the tower block, as many of them were awake.
She said: “Most Muslims now observing Ramadan will normally not go to bed until about 2am, maybe 2.30am, [when] they have their late night last meal. They do their last prayer.
“So most of the families around here would have been awake and I think even with the noise of the helicopters, it would have brought a lot of attention to a lot of residents, non-Muslim as well, [who] would have thought 'something's going on that's not quite normal.'"
She spoke of how tight-knit the community was, and how many different nationalities lived in the tower.
She said: "It’s a very diverse area, we have all nationalities, all religions. We all live peacefully amongst each other, there is not much crime - [not] higher than anywhere else. You can walk around safely late at night… we all know each other. There is a very high population of Moroccans, and for some reason we all live close to each other. Everyone knows each other.”
Nadia Yousuf, 29, told BuzzFeed Muslim residents were among the first to notice the fire, as they woke up to prepare to break their fast.
"They saw it just after they woke up to eat", she said.
...
Excerpt. More at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/local-heroes-saved-lives-helped-residents-grenfell-tower-fire/
Note this comes from the Torygraph, not a left-wing paper.
No doubt, being awake (for whatever reason) influenced survival.
If the above is the case and this is not just a puff piece, then by all means give credit where credit is due.
It's enough to face a burning building in full turnout gear with a hose in your hands. Been there, done that, just none that tall, but plenty hot.
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Placing a combustional substance on a high rise to 'make it look pretty'?
The London Fire Code must have been thrown away.
There are other reports that it was added to make the building more energy efficient. Doesn't really matter. It was an incredibly stupid thing to do for all the obvious reasons.
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No doubt, being awake (for whatever reason) influenced survival.
If the above is the case and this is not just a puff piece, then by all means give credit where credit is due.
It's enough to face a burning building in full turnout gear with a hose in your hands. Been there, done that, just none that tall, but plenty hot.
Apparently the fire was started by a refrigerator that literally blew up. The enviro-nuts started using butane (or something similar) for refrigerant in them... Enviro-nuts have killed far more people than their good intentions have ever saved...
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From this morning:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/14/13/4169D89500000578-4601902-image-a-40_1497441666046.jpg)
In my professional opinion as a slumlord, a little paint and spackle and you can start moving people back into those units next week.
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Apparently the fire was started by a refrigerator that literally blew up. The enviro-nuts started using butane (or something similar) for refrigerant in them... Enviro-nuts have killed far more people than their good intentions have ever saved...
Butane or propane would work as refrigerants, but almost no one uses them because of the fire hazard. I knew a farmer who charged his tractor AC system with propane every year (after R-12 was banned), but even that was on the outside of the cab in an area where if it can't push the pickup down the road, it isn't very windy.
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Butane or propane would work as refrigerants, but almost no one uses them because of the fire hazard. I knew a farmer who charged his tractor AC system with propane every year (after R-12 was banned), but even that was on the outside of the cab in an area where if it can't push the pickup down the road, it isn't very windy.
Holy shit. I heard about people doing that but I thought that was just folk lore. A/C systems are notorious for leaking and having propane leaking next to something that uses fire to operate seems ill advised.
Better off converting to 134 which isn't a big deal or maybe trying ammonia.
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Holy shit. I heard about people doing that but I thought that was just folk lore. A/C systems are notorious for leaking and having propane leaking next to something that uses fire to operate seems ill advised.
Better off converting to 134 which isn't a big deal or maybe trying ammonia.
Yep, I agree. But the AC unit was on the top of the cab of a large diesel tractor. They guy was a licensed A&P Mechanic, and decided it was his tractor, his A/C system, and he'd do it his way. He never did have a problem, but I wouldn't do it nor recommend it. John Deere wanted a fortune to convert to 134 at the time and a bottle of R-12 had gone from 99 bucks to 999 overnight on Dec. 31. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a half dozen of those when they were cheap, 'cause I knew it was coming.
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Reports (from Italy) that it was the plastic based cladding on the outside of the building that spread the fire - it was added last year as part of a £10 million refurbishment (To make it look decent for the neighbors in the big money homes, not to fix the actual problems).
Told you: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=267368.new#new
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Told you: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=267368.new#new
Yep, EC, you had that nailed. **nononono* Dear God...
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I'm getting text alerts on my phone the death toll has risen to 17 but will probably be worse. BBC, Sky, CNN, and USA Today reporting.
G-d please take care of these poor souls and those who are injured.
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Fire safety rule is to get down on stomach and crawl in a fire (in heavy smoke) but how do get down stairs in that?
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Told you: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=267368.new#new
Sounds like it was green global warming garbage, not merely aesthetics
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Fire safety rule is to get down on stomach and crawl in a fire (in heavy smoke) but how do get down stairs in that?
Wet clothes and heavy wet cloth over your mouth and pray the gasses aren't too toxic and that you can open your eyes enough to make your way...
Simply horrible.
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Sounds like it was green global warming garbage, not merely aesthetics
The reported source of the fire was also caused by "green global warming garbage". A refrigerator blew up on the 4th floor. They use butane for refrigerant there because of evil CFCs... Apparently they've imported butane use to the US too. Hell no.
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The reported source of the fire was also caused by "green global warming garbage". A refrigerator blew up on the 4th floor. They use butane for refrigerant there because of evil CFCs... Apparently they've imported butane use to the US too. Hell no.
Could be true but I've never heard of a fire cause be refrigerate refridgerant.
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Could be true but I've never heard of a fire cause be refrigerate refridgerant.
They commonly use BUTANE for refrigerant in Europe because it is "Green". It leaks inside the cabinet and then when the thermostat contacts arc it goes boom. I kid you not.
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Could be true but I've never heard of a fire cause be refrigerate refridgerant.
That's because in the US other non flammable refrigerants are used. The CFC (Chlorinated flourocarbon--AKA: Freon) refrigerants worked fine, but supposedly were making a hole in the ozone layer.
Other gasses which are volatile will work, including propane and butane, but are not used here in the States, precisely because of the fire danger.
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Butane or propane would work as refrigerants, but almost no one uses them because of the fire hazard. I knew a farmer who charged his tractor AC system with propane every year (after R-12 was banned), but even that was on the outside of the cab in an area where if it can't push the pickup down the road, it isn't very windy.
Propane works very well as a refrigerant. It is commonly used in oil & gas facilities. But then for us it is no greater risk than most everything else and the equipment is rated for use in such hazardous environments.
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The reported source of the fire was also caused by "green global warming garbage". A refrigerator blew up on the 4th floor. They use butane for refrigerant there because of evil CFCs... Apparently they've imported butane use to the US too. Hell no.
What's the source on that claim?
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Propane works very well as a refrigerant. It is commonly used in oil & gas facilities. But then for us it is no greater risk than most everything else and the equipment is rated for use in such hazardous environments.
That's a far cry from putting it in your car AC or using it in your fridge (not rated for hazardous environments). Or the farmer I knew putting it in the AC on his tractor. (something on this order only a little older model)
(http://www.machinefinder.com/images/machines/99/3939199/11014661_huge.jpg)
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What's the source on that claim?
"Mahad Egal, who lives on the fourth floor, led his wife and two young children to safety, reaching the ground floor at about 1.10am. Mr Egal said: “The fire started on the fourth floor. My neighbour told me it was his fridge that exploded."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/15/london-fire-latest-death-toll-set-rise-amid-grim-search-grenfell/
"A total of 74 people were being treated in hospitals, with 20 of them in a critical condition after the fire, thought to have been sparked by a faulty refrigerator, started just after 1am on Wednesday and quickly spreading up the building. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-inferno-disaster-waiting-happen-concerns-raised/
And more here:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,267396.msg1358255/topicseen.html#msg1358255
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That's because in the US other non flammable refrigerants are used. The CFC (Chlorinated flourocarbon--AKA: Freon) refrigerants worked fine, but supposedly were making a hole in the ozone layer.
Other gasses which are volatile will work, including propane and butane, but are not used here in the States, precisely because of the fire danger.
I ran propane as a refrigerant in a vehicle I owned for years without a single problem. There isn't enough refrigerant there to cause much of a problem even if you lose a hose and it ignites.
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The death toll is now 79.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357
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The death toll is now 79.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357
Was just going to post this, getting alerts from all USA wires on my iPhone on this very thing.
GMTA, I'm honored to be thinking like you, @EC
Oh those poor people. G-d bless their souls.
:0001:
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God will. He's good like that.
God help the bastards as set it up to happen though.
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On fox news tv they just said the death toll was 97 now.
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...Homeless Grenfell Tower victims will receive at least £5500 ($9200) in a Government payout, The Sun reports.
Downing Street said desperate families got £500 ($836) in cash on Sunday to be followed by a £5000 ($8300) bank transfer tomorrow — after victims told of getting just £10 ($16) a day so far.
No. 10 officials said support workers would ensure people could access the cash — including those who may not have a bank account.
A £5 million ($8.36 million) fund has been set up for emergency supplies, food and clothing....
Grenfell Tower fire: British ministers reveal building cladding was banned under UK regulations
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/grenfell-tower-fire-british-ministers-reveal-building-cladding-was-banned-under-uk-regulations/news-story/c90d27657651a86435d60c7d30ea4b7e
JUNE 19, 2017
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I ran propane as a refrigerant in a vehicle I owned for years without a single problem. There isn't enough refrigerant there to cause much of a problem even if you lose a hose and it ignites.
Most of a vehicle (at least used to be, especially under the hood) is more resistant to fire than materials in the average home, when you think about it. The idea being that if the fuel leaked, you'd have time to pull over and get out.
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Grenfell Tower fire: British ministers reveal building cladding was banned under UK regulations
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/grenfell-tower-fire-british-ministers-reveal-building-cladding-was-banned-under-uk-regulations/news-story/c90d27657651a86435d60c7d30ea4b7e
JUNE 19, 2017
This means the London Fire Safety Brigade was over-ruled.
Someone will go to jail.
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This means the London Fire Safety Brigade was over-ruled.
Someone will go to jail.
Sure sounds like it. Terrible story.