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General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 01:18:27 pm

Title: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 01:18:27 pm
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/klein-ted-cruz-makes-the-democrats-stronger-1.6267023

Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger

Published: October 16, 2013 3:36 PM

By EZRA KLEIN


A true cynic about American politics would, at this point, be forced to one conclusion: Sen. Ted Cruz is a Democratic sleeper agent.

It is tough to appreciate just how much good Ted Cruz has done the Democrats over these last few weeks.

-- He convinced Republicans to shut down the government rather than wait and fight over the debt ceiling, where they would have had more - and more dangerous - leverage.

-- He splintered the Republican Party such that, from day one, it was clear that the GOP leadership opposed the strategy they were executing, and GOP senators were publicly blasting House Republicans. That also cut the GOP's leverage.

-- He made this a fight over defunding Obamacare, which polls showed was a wildly unpopular reason to shut down the government, and which united Democrats against him.

-- He shut the government down on Oct. 1, the same day Obamacare began, thus distracting the American people from the law's catastrophic rollout.

-- He drove the Republican Party to its lowest levels of popularity ever recorded in polls.

-- He actually managed to make Obamacare more popular at a time when, by all rights, the law's extremely troubled launch should've been eroding its standing in the polls.

-- The culmination of the strategy, today, is that Republicans are reopening the government and raising the debt ceiling in return for . . . nothing.

There are no policy concessions from the Democrats (income verification is already part of Obamacare). There are no procedural concessions from the Democrats. Just the opposite, in fact.

Democrats managed to get the budget conference they've been pursuing for six months. They got a CR of the length they wanted and ending before the next sequestration cuts rather than the six-month CR that Sen. Susan Collins proposed. They got a debt-ceiling increase all the way into February. This is far beyond what Democrats thought possible on Sept. 30.

But the strategy Ted Cruz managed to force on the GOP was so suicidal that Democrats felt comfortable forcing Republicans to cave completely. They were so confident that they managed to reject a deal proposed by Sen. Susan Collins and supported by many Senate Democrats because it funded the government for longer than the Democratic leadership preferred. That's a level of control over the outcome that Democrats never expected to have.

Going forward, not only will Republicans be afraid to shut down the government or threaten the debt ceiling again during this Congress, but if Republicans somehow end up doing it anyway, Democrats will be unafraid of the fight. As Democrats see it, if Republicans want to give a shutdown or a default another shot closer to the 2014 election, well, that's great news for Democratic congressional candidates.

Over the last 24 hours I've seen some Republicans complaining that President Obama and the Democrats are trying to break them. Their anger is misplaced. They should be angry at Ted Cruz for putting Republicans in a position to be broken.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 01:19:27 pm
Time for a third party. 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: massadvj on October 17, 2013, 01:20:18 pm
Time for a third party.

No.  Time for the Tea Party to take over the GOP in 2014.  If that fails, then it will be time for a third party.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 01:25:35 pm
Time for a third party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_third_party_performances_in_United_States_elections
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 01:27:15 pm
No.  Time for the Tea Party to take over the GOP in 2014.  If that fails, then it will be time for a third party.

Good luck with that.  "Take no prisoners" is out as a political strategy.  And we know Tea Partiers don't want any compromise.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2013, 01:40:47 pm
LMAO....compromise?....still laughing....McConnell did such a great job in that department...
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: happyg on October 17, 2013, 02:25:32 pm
The GOP makes the democrats stronger. The daily bashing of Cruz by the GOP, along with the MSM, who fear him, is the culprit. Cruz didn't lose one supporter during this period, and has gained many people who are waking up. The GOP won't give up its social club, and that is what is hurting the country. Once they are voted out, the country can begin to heal.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 02:26:45 pm
Time for a third party.

 :beer:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 02:29:18 pm
Somehow I don't picture you as a Tea Partier.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 02:29:32 pm
LMAO....compromise?....still laughing....McConnell did such a great job in that department...

McConnell was playing a weak hand.  He had no leverage.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 02:30:12 pm
Somehow I don't picture you as a Tea Partier.

He's a Democrat.  He WANTS a third party to split off from the Republicans.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 02:32:12 pm
The GOP makes the democrats stronger. The daily bashing of Cruz by the GOP, along with the MSM, who fear him, is the culprit. Cruz didn't lose one supporter during this period, and has gained many people who are waking up. The GOP won't give up its social club, and that is what is hurting the country. Once they are voted out, the country can begin to heal.

Nobody's afraid of Ted Cruz but his disciples in the House.  Now that he's got that "loser" scarlet letter on him, even they won't fear him any longer.

What makes you think Cruz gained supporters?  If anything, he's alienated many Republicans who share his goals.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 02:36:38 pm
He's a Democrat.  He WANTS a third party to split off from the Republicans.

I'm not a Democrat. I don't vote Democrat and never will. I have never voted for anything but third party candidates. Regardless of whether or not I support his Tea Party and their ideas, I can still appreciate the American people taking a stand against our corrupt two party system.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: happyg on October 17, 2013, 02:38:06 pm
I'm not a Democrat. I don't vote Democrat and never will. I have never voted for anything but third party candidates. Regardless of whether or not I support his Tea Party and their ideas, I can still appreciate the American people taking a stand against our corrupt two party system.

 :amen:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 02:42:07 pm
I also want to put it out there that I have been encouraging frustrated liberals to vote third party too. We need to break away from the monster that has taken over our political system.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2013, 02:42:44 pm
McConnell was playing a weak hand.  He had no leverage.

...still laughing....leverage..that's their own damn fault by not sticking together instead of all the infighting...you sure don't see the Dems do that!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 02:43:33 pm
I'm not a Democrat. I don't vote Democrat and never will. I have never voted for anything but third party candidates. Regardless of whether or not I support his Tea Party and their ideas, I can still appreciate the American people taking a stand against our corrupt two party system.

Good grief.  You realize you'll play in the minor leagues the rest of your life, don't you?
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 02:44:08 pm
...still laughing....leverage..that's their own damn fault by not sticking together instead of all the infighting...you sure don't see the Dems do that!

Did you really believe Obama was going to agree to defund Obamacare?
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2013, 03:05:55 pm
Did you really believe Obama was going to agree to defund Obamacare?

Absolutely not....but I had hoped he would negotiate on some of it's issues...instead by relenting Obama now knows he doesn't have to negotiate on anything in the future....Repubs now have a hard task now of trying to block anything the the Dems try to push through..which is even harder now since some Repub's can't be trusted to remain faithful to their own party.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 03:11:48 pm
Absolutely not....but I had hoped he would negotiate on some of it's issues...instead by relenting Obama now knows he doesn't have to negotiate on anything in the future....Repubs now have a hard task now of trying to block anything the the Dems try to push through..which is even harder now since some Repub's can't be trusted to remain faithful to their own party.

Why would he negotiate?  He knew the GOP would be blamed for the shutdown, and they would be blamed for a debt default.

Hey, we can do the same thing.  We can refuse to negotiate on the sequester cuts.  The country supports the sequester cuts.  Yet the GOP is jumping offside to trade those cuts for entitlement reform (at some date in the future). 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2013, 03:18:49 pm
Why would he negotiate?  He knew the GOP would be blamed for the shutdown, and they would be blamed for a debt default.

Hey, we can do the same thing.  We can refuse to negotiate on the sequester cuts.  The country supports the sequester cuts.  Yet the GOP is jumping offside to trade those cuts for entitlement reform (at some date in the future).

They won't do that...they've lost their nerve...even if a few Repub's suggest it you can't count on the others to stand with you...this is their weakness...
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 03:44:19 pm
Absolutely not....but I had hoped he would negotiate on some of it's issues...instead by relenting Obama now knows he doesn't have to negotiate on anything in the future....Repubs now have a hard task now of trying to block anything the the Dems try to push through..which is even harder now since some Repub's can't be trusted to remain faithful to their own party.

 :amen:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 03:48:23 pm
:amen:

Not really wise to trust that guy or anything he says, happy......
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: truth_seeker on October 17, 2013, 03:51:52 pm
Absolutely not....but I had hoped he would negotiate on some of it's issues...instead by relenting Obama now knows he doesn't have to negotiate on anything in the future....Repubs now have a hard task now of trying to block anything the the Dems try to push through..which is even harder now since some Repub's can't be trusted to remain faithful to their own party.
Some general questions:

1. Will the GOP follow Cruz' lead again soon?

2. Will those who followed him already, admit he led them to nothing?

Washington and Eisenhower waited until they were ready. Custer honestly didn't know the size of the forces he opposed at Little Bighorn (he failed because he SHOULD have known).

The French resistance was a temporary coalition of Republicans and communists. The US formed a temporary alliance with the Soviet communists.

Eisenhower, FDR and Churchill followed an plan of "Ready, Aim, Fire." The Tea Party seems to follow no plan, or a plan of "Fire, Ready, Aim."

Then retreat, regroup, observe the previous failure, and vow to do the same thing over again. All the while ranting about the battle field not being fair, their soldiers not being hardy enough, the other side using unfair tactics, the war reporters not telling their version, etc.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: happyg on October 17, 2013, 04:11:03 pm
Not really wise to trust that guy or anything he says, happy......

LOL! I liked the one comment. Don't worry; I'm not changing my stance on the issues.  :beer:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 04:21:03 pm
LOL! I liked the one comment. Don't worry; I'm not changing my stance on the issues.  :beer:

I know that, happy, but the phrase "CAVEAT EMPTOR" keeps coming to mind.

While I strongly disagree with sinkspur about Ted Cruz,et al,  I agree 100% that the self-admitted "liberal spy" who also admitted to coming to the "belly of the beast" (and then said it was a joke), is here to DIVIDE us.

There is no good purpose for his being here.  He is an internet leftist on a conservative forum.

He's here to harm us.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 04:30:22 pm


He's here to harm us.



Not everybody here is paranoid and intolerant.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2013, 05:12:27 pm
I also want to put it out there that I have been encouraging frustrated liberals to vote third party too. We need to break away from the monster that has taken over our political system.

That sounds like a nice tune your singing, but...

I'm not quite certain things would turn out well. I not sure that encouraging liberals to vote for Green, Peace and Freedom, Working Families, and every other neo-communist party out there would help the cause of liberty or get us back to a constitutional republic. Besides, it would just split the vote on the left and elect more establishment Republicans. Then we'd be on the same course where on now – only slower.

No, the thing to do is to educate folks (start 'em young) about liberty and then field candidates who understand and respect the Constitution. The answer to entrenched and corrupt politicians is in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

At least, that's the theory.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 05:32:48 pm
That sounds like a nice tune your singing, but...

I'm not quite certain things would turn out well. I not sure that encouraging liberals to vote for Green, Peace and Freedom, Working Families, and every other neo-communist party out there would help the cause of liberty or get us back to a constitutional republic. Besides, it would just split the vote on the left and elect more establishment Republicans. Then we'd be on the same course where on now – only slower.


You're focusing on the things we disagree on to avoid working together for the thing we DO agree on. What we do agree on is this current setup isn't working. It's corrupt, and democracy isn't working. By shutting down the current administration we would be doing a lot towards taking back our country.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 05:36:34 pm
Not everybody here is paranoid and intolerant.

Might have been a little smarter if you had picked a less in-your-face handle.  Personally, I don't think you add anything to the forum.  You never bother to explain WHY you think like you do, which I find strange. I have watched some folks have actually spend time explaining things to you, which I thought was a huge waste of their time.   You are not here to learn anything--that is obvious.
.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 05:42:45 pm
You never bother to explain WHY you think like you do, which I find strange.


I recognize where I am, and because of that I tend to let things go before the disagreement escalates. You guys know what I think when it comes to my more liberal views, and those of you who have spent time talking to liberals know most of what would be my responses to some of those questions. Liberals and conservatives have fundamental disagreements about how to best improve the United States, and I've completely accepted that I'm not going to convince any of you to change your mind on things like healthcare/abortion/whatever.  I try to focus on the things we agree on.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 05:46:11 pm
I realize you're a liberal, I just don't know WHY you have the opinions you do.  As for common ground, specifically which specific issues can we can find common ground on, and how? 

Quite frankly, dealing with you is like nailing jello to a wall.   
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 05:51:21 pm
I realize you're a liberal, I just don't know WHY you have the opinions you do.  As for common ground, specifically which specific issues can we can find common ground on, and how? 

Quite frankly, dealing with you is like nailing jello to a wall.

Many of you recognize that the banks are a problem, and that they need to be broken up; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Many of you seem to agree with cutting out excess military spending; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Almost all of you disagree with gun control, which I also disagree with. Most of you seem to believe that the powers that run this country have overstepped their boundaries and have polarized the two parties into something that benefits them regardless of who is in office, which I completely agree with. I think the left and right could get a lot of good done if they worked together. 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: xfreeper on October 17, 2013, 05:59:22 pm
McConnell was playing a weak hand.  He had no leverage.

McConnell had all the leverage he needed in the house. He and other GOP senators were unwilling to use it
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 06:03:09 pm
McConnell had all the leverage he needed in the house. He and other GOP senators were unwilling to use it

Amen!
 

RINOS are the problem and always have been!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:06:01 pm
McConnell had all the leverage he needed in the house. He and other GOP senators were unwilling to use it

Are  you one of those who thinks Obama would defund Obamacare?
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:06:58 pm
Amen!
 

RINOS are the problem and always have been!

Tom Coburn, no RINO, thought the defunding strategy was stupid.  It was.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 06:13:42 pm
Many of you recognize that the banks are a problem, and that they need to be broken up; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Many of you seem to agree with cutting out excess military spending; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Almost all of you disagree with gun control, which I also disagree with. Most of you seem to believe that the powers that run this country have overstepped their boundaries and have polarized the two parties into something that benefits them regardless of who is in office, which I completely agree with. I think the left and right could get a lot of good done if they worked together.

These things don't make you sound like much of a liberal, yet you insist you are.  I think you're a time waster and you're boring.   You're going on ignore--if I can figure out how to do that.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: DCPatriot on October 17, 2013, 06:19:46 pm
The "problem" with the ignore button is that you'll end up 'seeing' many of that member's posts inside quotes contained in typical replies.

IMO, tis better to simply glance...see...and look away.

RE: Ted Cruz....whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Ted Cruz' future could mirror Ronald Reagan's back in 1976, when Rockefeller and FRiends kept the nomination from him.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: xfreeper on October 17, 2013, 06:21:15 pm
Are  you one of those who thinks Obama would defund Obamacare?
No. I am one of those that never thought you can get from point A to point Z without any steps in between. My thoughts on the overall strategy were expressed a month or two ago. None the less, when you arrive at point G, you don't say we can't get to Z so we give up. You stick together and perhaps get to L. They certainly could have extracted something, perhaps a delay, if the had held strong and been wise about their strategy. Instead by folding (GOP senators) they end up with nothing and looking like the losers they are.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:25:49 pm
 

Quote
Hell, I'm a conservative and some are trying to run me off the forum because I disagree with them


You are NOT a conservative.  You are not even close to being a conservative.  At the very least you are a Rockefeller Republican - a PROGRESSIVE who calls himself a Republican, but a conservative  - you have no clue what a conservative is.
 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2013, 06:26:57 pm
Many of you recognize that the banks are a problem, and that they need to be broken up; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Many of you seem to agree with cutting out excess military spending; I am a huge supporter of this idea. Almost all of you disagree with gun control, which I also disagree with. Most of you seem to believe that the powers that run this country have overstepped their boundaries and have polarized the two parties into something that benefits them regardless of who is in office, which I completely agree with. I think the left and right could get a lot of good done if they worked together.

No matter what others have said, I take you at your word. And I agree that working together might be better for the good of the country than working at cross purposes—if what you want is the same thing as what I want: dismantling that bureaucratic behemoth in DC, including the IRS, the EPA, the education department (give me a minute, there are so many agencies this could take a long time). But you get the point.

Now if you want to join me, then we have some common ground.  Washington's political power structure ain't going to dismantle itself.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: xfreeper on October 17, 2013, 06:28:07 pm
Tom Coburn, no RINO, thought the defunding strategy was stupid.  It was.

He may have been right about the strategy but he and others that caved early are the reason they got nothing at all
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:28:18 pm
The "problem" with the ignore button is that you'll end up 'seeing' many of that member's posts inside quotes contained in typical replies.

IMO, tis better to simply glance...see...and look away.

RE: Ted Cruz....whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Ted Cruz' future could mirror Ronald Reagan's back in 1976, when Rockefeller and FRiends kept the nomination from him.

For God's sake!  Cruz has been in the Senate 15 minutes and you're comparing him to Ronald Reagan.  Seriously?

Reagan had leadership skills.  Cruz has none, at least none that he demonstrated over the past two weeks.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 06:30:29 pm
The "problem" with the ignore button is that you'll end up 'seeing' many of that member's posts inside quotes contained in typical replies.

IMO, tis better to simply glance...see...and look away.

RE: Ted Cruz....whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Ted Cruz' future could mirror Ronald Reagan's back in 1976, when Rockefeller and FRiends kept the nomination from him.

The only problem with that is that with SOME posters you go over the same ground continually no matter how many times they have been proven wrong previously.

You can conclusively prove them wrong on something and five minutes later they will be back posting the same thing you just conclusively disproved!

It drives me CRAZY so I have resorted to the ignore option in those cases.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:32:37 pm
No. I am one of those that never thought you can get from point A to point Z without any steps in between. My thoughts on the overall strategy were expressed a month or two ago. None the less, when you arrive at point G, you don't say we can't get to Z so we give up. You stick together and perhaps get to L. They certainly could have extracted something, perhaps a delay, if the had held strong and been wise about their strategy. Instead by folding (GOP senators) they end up with nothing and looking like the losers they are.

What would L look like?  How do you extract ANYTHING from a President who is not going to give you anything?  Obama might delay the mandate on his own, but he's not going to do it because the GOP is willing to shutdown the government over it, especially since they and not he got the bulk of the blame.

If the Republicans held the Senate, they'd be a better position, obviously.  They could shut down approval of all nominees, for instance.  But you can't force a major change from one House of Congress.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 06:33:56 pm
He may have been right about the strategy but he and others that caved early are the reason they got nothing at all

He didn't cave.  He said the strategy was wrong.  And it WAS wrong.  And the Republicans got nothing because Obama held all the cards.  All he had to was wait 'em out.

Many of us predicted exactly what would happen.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: DCPatriot on October 17, 2013, 06:35:07 pm
For God's sake!  Cruz has been in the Senate 15 minutes and you're comparing him to Ronald Reagan.  Seriously?

Reagan had leadership skills.  Cruz has none, at least none that he demonstrated over the past two weeks.

And a 144 day-old Senator from Illinois was elected and just REELECTED!

Once the pain and suffering of Obamacare trickles down to the street....he'll 'look' more like Reagan.

Even the French are freaking out at the rise of Conservatism in their country.   People get fed up....and vote.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 06:45:43 pm
There are many here who are bothered by the very idea that you would come on this forum  and present alternative ideas. Some will tell you to leave, others will put you on ignore.

 Hell, I'm a conservative and some are trying to run me off the forum because I disagree with them! 

So don't get discouraged.

I don't blame them; people on the left are the same way. The left and right have dehumanized each other to the point that people are threatened by the mere presence of the opposition.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2013, 06:53:38 pm
The thing is in order to get anything political done you need to harness the passion in people. And passion is what the extremes on both sides have plenty of. Rationality? That's a different matter.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: truth_seeker on October 17, 2013, 06:54:44 pm
No. I am one of those that never thought you can get from point A to point Z without any steps in between. My thoughts on the overall strategy were expressed a month or two ago. None the less, when you arrive at point G, you don't say we can't get to Z so we give up. You stick together and perhaps get to L. They certainly could have extracted something, perhaps a delay, if the had held strong and been wise about their strategy. Instead by folding (GOP senators) they end up with nothing and looking like the losers they are.
Immediately following Pearl Harbor, the US Navy could have appointed Admiral Cruz to lead the retaliation against Japan. He could have ordered every vessel and sailor, to steam straight west for Japan.

Seeing he was heading for disaster, a higher authority could have halted that fleet, to save them for when they were ready, and not doomed to certain destruction.

Fortunately during WWII we had wise commanders. Also when outnumbered, General Washington got the most from a bad situation, by cunning, strategy, patience etc.

A lot of willful denial going on these days.

Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: xfreeper on October 17, 2013, 06:57:43 pm
Obama might delay the mandate on his own, but he's not going to do it because the GOP is willing to shutdown the government over it, especially since they and not he got the bulk of the blame.

We will never know what barry would have done if the GOP had stuck together

But you can't force a major change from one House of Congress

Yes you can when they hold the purse strings
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 07:00:25 pm
Obama might delay the mandate on his own, but he's not going to do it because the GOP is willing to shutdown the government over it, especially since they and not he got the bulk of the blame.

We will never know what barry would have done if the GOP had stuck together

But you can't force a major change from one House of Congress

Yes you can when they hold the purse strings

ONLY if they are willing to exercise their prerogatives!
 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 07:04:50 pm
Obama might delay the mandate on his own, but he's not going to do it because the GOP is willing to shutdown the government over it, especially since they and not he got the bulk of the blame.

We will never know what barry would have done if the GOP had stuck together

Yes we do.  He would have done exactly what he did.  So would you and so would I.  Think of this scenario: if the Democrats had tried to jam a tax increase on Bush or they would shut down the government.  They would have gotten the blame, and Bush would NEVER have yielded.

Quote
But you can't force a major change from one House of Congress

Yes you can when they hold the purse strings

How'd that work out in this case?  The House held the purse strings, shutdown the government, and got nothing.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 07:16:55 pm
Is anyone else here getting tired of continual circular arguments from some quarters?

I sure am!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: andy58-in-nh on October 17, 2013, 07:54:38 pm
Immediately following Pearl Harbor, the US Navy could have appointed Admiral Cruz to lead the retaliation against Japan. He could have ordered every vessel and sailor, to steam straight west for Japan.

Seeing he was heading for disaster, a higher authority could have halted that fleet, to save them for when they were ready, and not doomed to certain destruction.

Fortunately during WWII we had wise commanders. Also when outnumbered, General Washington got the most from a bad situation, by cunning, strategy, patience etc.

A lot of willful denial going on these days.

Please, now: we're not at war, and the Tea Party did not bomb Washington. Nor was Mr. Cruz's effort intended as an "all-out assault", nor did it constitute a reckless or poorly-considered use of congressional authority. There is no level at which your analogy really works.

The bad situation is which we presently find ourselves exists not because of, but in spite of Mr. Cruz's efforts.

We have a Democrat Senate and President comprised of radical Progressives who refuse to compromise in any meaningful way. Their goal is democratic socialism, and they will not allow any reversal of the gains they have thus far made toward that end. Along with Democrat House members and Democrat constituent members, the party at present finds itself essentially united in its beliefs and purposes, even in spite of great differences in class and social standing as between Democrat leaders and their client groups. 

For their part, the Republicans find themselves strongly divided between a definable class of permanent politicians, lobbyists, and consultants on one hand, and the set of constituent groups that comprise their base voters, on the other. Increasingly, these two sets of people have less in common in the way of either social standing, beliefs or purposes. In point of fact, they are growing apart.

GOP leaders tend to shun conflict, where their Democrat counterparts embrace it. The GOP base wants its leaders to fight for their principles, but they most often decline to do so. In part, this reticence is due to fear of the (very real) damage that can be done to them as a result of the modern control of all social institutions by Progressive liberals. But it is also due to a gradual shift on the part of GOP leaders, away from the beliefs and attitudes of their base voters.

Into this environment came a radical, transformative President, one given neither to self-doubt or compromise, but rather to conflict and intentional antagonism. Exploiting the growing rift between the GOP elites and their natural political base (which here I will describe roughly as a loose coalition of religious traditionalists, cultural activists, free-market libertarians, small business people and entrepreneurs, and white, suburban and exurban families), the President set about to mock and ridicule the attitudes and beliefs of these people while tying them to their leaders as though they were millstones.

The Tea Party was a natural reaction to the Democrats' legislative overreach and open hostility toward conservative values, but it also provided a convenient and visible bulls-eye for a Progressive President and his minions, all well-schooled in the teachings of Saul Alinsky: pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

And so, Obama's advisers employed a divide-and-conquer strategy not just between Americans, but specifically between Republican leaders and their own voters. It was and is, an audacious and clever move, knowing that many life-long Republican political figures have a good deal more in common - socially and attitudinally - with Washington Democrats, than they do with the people who elected them. The result over time, and especially after 2010, has been to dishearten Republican base voters, while increasing their polarization from the people who represent them.

And so, into the fray stepped Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and others, in an effort to reverse the polarity of the current political dynamic - in the process, inviting their own electrocution.  Anyone who thinks that what they are doing is in the pursuit of self-aggrandizement should ask themselves whether they would be willing to subject themselves to the torrents of hatred, abuse, vitiol and public disdain that has been brought down upon them - for daring to stand up for the people that their fellow Republicans increasingly refuse to represent, or in some cases: really no longer do represent.

And so the (Tea) party will go on...
 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Cincinnatus on October 17, 2013, 07:58:53 pm
And we know Tea Partiers don't want any compromise.

Quote
President Barack Obama warned Republicans in Congress on Monday that he will not negotiate over an extension of the U.S. debt ceiling...

(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t413/winthroproberts/c5069e1a-4852-4c79-b068-06f480414c2e_zps83bbd8f6.jpg) (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/winthroproberts/media/c5069e1a-4852-4c79-b068-06f480414c2e_zps83bbd8f6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 08:11:41 pm
These things don't make you sound like much of a liberal, yet you insist you are.  I think you're a time waster and you're boring.   You're going on ignore--if I can figure out how to do that.

Good move.  Your observations are accurate.

(If you need some help with the 'ignore' thing, I'll be glad to give it to you.  ^-^  It only took 24 hours for me to realize for sure that he was just your run of the mill liberal troll, pretending to be something that he's not.  Leftist internet interlopers may vary in personal skills, some more well behaved [ergo, more deceitful] than others, but they all have one goal......... DIVIDE and conquer).
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 08:18:22 pm
Please, now: we're not at war, and the Tea Party did not bomb Washington. Nor was Mr. Cruz's effort intended as an "all-out assault", nor did it constitute a reckless or poorly-considered use of congressional authority. There is no level at which your analogy really works.

The bad situation is which we presently find ourselves exists not because of, but in spite of Mr. Cruz's efforts.

We have a Democrat Senate and President comprised of radical Progressives who refuse to compromise in any meaningful way. Their goal is democratic socialism, and they will not allow any reversal of the gains they have thus far made toward that end. Along with Democrat House members and Democrat constituent members, the party at present finds itself essentially united in its beliefs and purposes, even in spite of great differences in class and social standing as between Democrat leaders and their client groups. 

For their part, the Republicans find themselves strongly divided between a definable class of permanent politicians, lobbyists, and consultants on one hand, and the set of constituent groups that comprise their base voters, on the other. Increasingly, these two sets of people have less in common in the way of either social standing, beliefs or purposes. In point of fact, they are growing apart.

GOP leaders tend to shun conflict, where their Democrat counterparts embrace it. The GOP base wants its leaders to fight for their principles, but they most often decline to do so. In part, this reticence is due to fear of the (very real) damage that can be done to them as a result of the modern control of all social institutions by Progressive liberals. But it is also due to a gradual shift on the part of GOP leaders, away from the beliefs and attitudes of their base voters.

Into this environment came a radical, transformative President, one given neither to self-doubt or compromise, but rather to conflict and intentional antagonism. Exploiting the growing rift between the GOP elites and their natural political base (which here I will describe roughly as a loose coalition of religious traditionalists, cultural activists, free-market libertarians, small business people and entrepreneurs, and white, suburban and exurban families), the President set about to mock and ridicule the attitudes and beliefs of these people while tying them to their leaders as though they were millstones.

The Tea Party was a natural reaction to the Democrats' legislative overreach and open hostility toward conservative values, but it also provided a convenient and visible bulls-eye for a Progressive President and his minions, all well-schooled in the teachings of Saul Alinsky: pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

And so, Obama's advisers employed a divide-and-conquer strategy not just between Americans, but specifically between Republican leaders and their own voters. It was and is, an audacious and clever move, knowing that many life-long Republican political figures have a good deal more in common - socially and attitudinally - with Washington Democrats, than they do with the people who elected them. The result over time, and especially after 2010, has been to dishearten Republican base voters, while increasing their polarization from the people who represent them.

And so, into the fray stepped Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and others, in an effort to reverse the polarity of the current political dynamic - in the process, inviting their own electrocution.  Anyone who thinks that what they are doing is in the pursuit of self-aggrandizement should ask themselves whether they would be willing to subject themselves to the torrents of hatred, abuse, vitiol and public disdain that has been brought down upon them - for daring to stand up for the people that their fellow Republicans increasingly refuse to represent, or in some cases: really no longer do represent.

And so the (Tea) party will go on...

Wow.  This is absolutely SUPERB, andy.

It's a clear synopsis of exactly what we're facing.

As a conservative Republican (who IS a Republican), I am deeply dismayed that those who are supposed to be representing me, are representing inside the beltway, power-hungry, party attending special interests, and not ME.  A loyal, thinking Republican who actually lives in the REAL world outside of Washington.

How, I continually ask myself, can my 'leadership' be so blind to what's going on?  To what the American people want from them?

I strongly believe that a third party would be disastrous to conservatism, but I do not know what's going to make the establishment Republicans wake up to what's really going on in their party.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 08:24:07 pm
Wow.  This is absolutely SUPERB, andy.

It's a clear synopsis of exactly what we're facing.

As a conservative Republican (who IS a Republican), I am deeply dismayed that those who are supposed to be representing me, are representing inside the beltway, power-hungry, party attending special interests, and not ME.  A loyal, thinking Republican who actually lives in the REAL world outside of Washington.

How, I continually ask myself, can my 'leadership' be so blind to what's going on?  To what the American people want from them?

I strongly believe that a third party would be disastrous to conservatism, but I do not know what's going to make the establishment Republicans wake up to what's really going on in their party.

I think that you are far from alone in those thoughts! Well Stated! And I agree with everything Andy said as well!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 17, 2013, 08:41:50 pm
I think that you are far from alone in those thoughts! Well Stated! And I agree with everything Andy said as well!

There have always been conservative and moderate/liberal factions within the Republican party.  You and I are old enough to remember back to the Republican convention in 1964 with Goldwater against Scranton (how much more fun it was to watch those conventions when the nominee was decided there and then!), with the conservative wing against the moderate wing of the party.  There has always been the Rockefeller wing, but somehow it didn't seem as important that there was division back a few decades ago as it does now..

Now we're talking about the very survival of America......not just some variations in goals.  The progressive left under Obama is destroying the very infrastructure of our Republic.  They are tearing away the very fabric of our society.  They are willfully breaking laws left and right, and very few of our representatives are uttering a word about it.  The left is now fulfilling the diabolical goals that go back 100 years in the Dem party, and have literally eliminated any conservative opposition within their party and now serve as a united front......a veritable battering ram against everything we hold dear.

We cannot compromise with people who don't share a single goal with us, who don't have a single value that we have.

And yet we've got representatives who seem to be hold their ears and singing "LA, LA, LA!" to try to avoid the reality of the situation we're in.  They're more interested in their own power and perks than in the liberty and well-being of their constituents.  And they seem oblivious to the threats we're facing from the left.

It's maddening and disheartening, and perhaps the only consolation is that we are NOT alone.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2013, 08:44:47 pm
Andy, I'm afraid it goes beyond just having "a Democrat Senate and President comprised of radical progressives." Yes, that's certainly true. But then, and you touched on it, there's the corruption. These guys of relatively modest means get in the senate, especially, and in short order they are multi millionaires. How does that work? I think we all know the answer.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 08:48:56 pm
There have always been conservative and moderate/liberal factions within the Republican party.  You and I are old enough to remember back to the Republican convention in 1964 with Goldwater against Scranton (how much more fun it was to watch those conventions when the nominee was decided there and then!), with the conservative wing against the moderate wing of the party.  There has always been the Rockefeller wing, but somehow it didn't seem as important that there was division back a few decades ago as it does now..

Now we're talking about the very survival of America......not just some variations in goals.  The progressive left under Obama is destroying the very infrastructure of our Republic.  They are tearing away the very fabric of our society.  They are willfully breaking laws left and right, and very few of our representatives are uttering a word about it.  The left is now fulfilling the diabolical goals that go back 100 years in the Dem party, and have literally eliminated any conservative opposition within their party and now serve as a united front......a veritable battering ram against everything we hold dear.

We cannot compromise with people who don't share a single goal with us, who don't have a single value that we have.

And yet we've got representatives who seem to be hold their ears and singing "LA, LA, LA!" to try to avoid the reality of the situation we're in.  They're more interested in their own power and perks than in the liberty and well-being of their constituents.  And they seem oblivious to the threats we're facing from the left.

It's maddening and disheartening, and perhaps the only consolation is that we are NOT alone.

 :amen: Sister! And we won't have those kind of representatives for long if I have any say in the matter!

It may go unnoticed by others here that not one Republican from Texas voted for this "deal" last evening!  Not a one! And I can tell you for sure that there were some who REALLY REALLY wanted to but were afraid that it would have ended their career if they had! They were right!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 17, 2013, 08:50:02 pm
Nobody's afraid of Ted Cruz but his disciples in the House.  Now that he's got that "loser" scarlet letter on him, even they won't fear him any longer.

What makes you think Cruz gained supporters?  If anything, he's alienated many Republicans who share his goals.

(http://crappypictures.com/images/2012/08/broken-record2.gif)
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 08:51:04 pm
There are many here who are bothered by the very idea that you would come on this forum  and present alternative ideas. Some will tell you to leave, others will put you on ignore.

 Hell, I'm a conservative and some are trying to run me off the forum because I disagree with them! 

So don't get discouraged.

So sayeth the hypocrite who readily slapped people into ignore status on that old TBL site.   :police:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 17, 2013, 08:51:17 pm
...still laughing....leverage..that's their own damn fault by not sticking together instead of all the infighting...you sure don't see the Dems do that!

They had leverage alright. Cruz actually worked out a brilliant plan and McConnell, McCain, etc., refused to go along with it.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 17, 2013, 08:53:12 pm
Good move.  Your observations are accurate.

(If you need some help with the 'ignore' thing, I'll be glad to give it to you.  ^-^  It only took 24 hours for me to realize for sure that he was just your run of the mill liberal troll, pretending to be something that he's not.  Leftist internet interlopers may vary in personal skills, some more well behaved [ergo, more deceitful] than others, but they all have one goal......... DIVIDE and conquer).

Thank you Music Lady, I got it figured out via a kind PM.  Liberal Spy can run his/her con on other posters here.  I'm done.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 17, 2013, 08:58:05 pm
Is anyone else here getting tired of continual circular arguments from some quarters?

I sure am!

Me.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: happyg on October 17, 2013, 09:08:56 pm
Me.

Me, too!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 09:38:38 pm
Thank you Music Lady, I got it figured out via a kind PM.  Liberal Spy can run his/her con on other posters here.  I'm done.

I hope somebody will let me in on my con.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 17, 2013, 09:41:11 pm
I hope somebody will let me in on my con.

Lipstick did sort of let you in, she said it is like trying to nail jello to the wall getting a straight answer from you... 
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 09:49:02 pm
Lipstick did sort of let you in, she said it is like trying to nail jello to the wall getting a straight answer from you...

Sometimes when I disagree with the logic that led a poster to make the point they made I choose to simply let it go, rather than let the discussion get to the point where we are both irritated because neither person understands the others point of view. I'm also on a conservative forum, and it becomes way too much to try to reply to every post that disagrees with me.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2013, 10:41:19 pm
Hang in there kid. I think you're doing alright. Personally, I would never go on a liberal site and try to have reasoned conversations with them. I doubt I could sway anybody to my POV. Besides, they'd tear my head off. Democrats can be real nasty and get real personal. Who needs it.

One other thing. I said before I come from a family of Democrats. Now I may despise their thinking—but I don't despise them. You're a self professed liberal. But you're also a fellow American and young. And so there's still hope for you.

You know, I served in Vietnam, so I would never turn my back on a fellow veteran—no matter how much I disagreed with his politics. :patriot:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 17, 2013, 11:05:17 pm
Is anyone else here getting tired of continual circular arguments from some quarters?

I sure am!

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 11:09:02 pm

You know, I served in Vietnam, so I would never turn my back on a fellow veteran—no matter how much I disagreed with his politics. :patriot:

I've always loved that military service is a bond that persists through all other differences.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 11:11:18 pm
So sayeth the hypocrite who readily slapped people into ignore status on that old TBL site.   :police:

THey didn't have the "ignore" feature.  If they did, I didn't use it.

Hell, I wouldn't have ignored WAR, one of the most obnoxious posters on the internet.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 11:13:39 pm
THey didn't have the "ignore" feature.  If they did, I didn't use it.

Hell, I wouldn't have ignored WAR, one of the most obnoxious posters on the internet.

Obnoxious posters are sometimes the most interesting/entertaining. :P
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 11:14:54 pm
Is anyone else here getting tired of continual circular arguments from some quarters?

I sure am!

What on earth do you know about arguments?  All you do is take potshots if you oppose somebody or Amen somebody if you don't.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 17, 2013, 11:19:23 pm
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQG6txfyq3kfXPAZOxeMXem642DBE_oSX5PzT5pK969t-EXs1UxA)
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Bigun on October 17, 2013, 11:50:25 pm
What on earth do you know about arguments?  All you do is take potshots if you oppose somebody or Amen somebody if you don't.

Well you see Sink it's like this! My daddy told me never to argue with an idiot for more than two minutes because after that it becomes impossible for a bystander to tell the difference! Your two minutes have long ago expired!
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: sinkspur on October 17, 2013, 11:53:45 pm
Well you see Sink it's like this! My daddy told me never to argue with an idiot for more than two minutes because after that it becomes impossible for a bystander to tell the difference! Your two minutes have long ago expired!

Be nice.  I thought you had me on "ignore." 

Your daddy was smart.  Too bad he didn't teach you some manners.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Liberal_Spy on October 17, 2013, 11:55:16 pm
Nothing constructive is going to come from escalating this argument.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Cincinnatus on October 18, 2013, 12:03:04 am
 :bs:
Quote
I'd appreciate you leaving out the snide comments.
  :bs:

.........................................................................................

What on earth do you know about arguments?  All you do is take potshots if you oppose somebody or Amen somebody if you don't.

Your daddy was smart.  Too bad he didn't teach you some manners.

Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 18, 2013, 12:12:33 am
Be nice.  I thought you had me on "ignore." 

Your daddy was smart.  Too bad he didn't teach you some manners.

Sinkspur

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfsYURy5eGCYy3klUfgepgLIv7DTy-_SFpIRjmf7Wy5DRR1BuXPw)
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Lipstick on a Hillary on October 18, 2013, 12:18:25 am
 000hehehehe
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: aligncare on October 18, 2013, 12:50:10 am
Come on guys, really?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/10337330895_700a742e79_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/105575503@N07/10337330895/)
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: Rapunzel on October 18, 2013, 12:52:42 am
Come on guys, really?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/10337330895_700a742e79_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/105575503@N07/10337330895/)

 :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: DCPatriot on October 18, 2013, 12:53:40 am
edit:  to hell with it......    :laugh:

 


Title: Re: Ted Cruz makes the Democrats stronger
Post by: musiclady on October 18, 2013, 01:10:01 am
THey didn't have the "ignore" feature.  If they did, I didn't use it.

Hell, I wouldn't have ignored WAR, one of the most obnoxious posters on the internet.

I loved the way you ripped the obnoxious WAR to shreds on TBL.

It was a joy to behold!

(Oh, yeah, and when I referred to Liberal_Spy as one who was here to divideus, it was in AGREEMENT with you).

btw, by the end of my tenure at TBL, I had all the leftists on ignore because there wasn't a single one of them who had anything decent to contribute to any discussion about anything.

And I hate wasting my time with interlopers.