The Briefing Room
Exclusive Content => Editorials => Topic started by: Dexter on November 12, 2018, 09:43:44 pm
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It takes so little effort to not be rude and childish. If people could just talk to each other with respect and decency it probably would never have gotten to the point where polar opposite ideas are ready to kill each other in the streets. It's especially disappointing when it's my own father, somebody I've looked up to my whole life. I never realized until I started to have my own ideas that his respect depends on my willingness to nod my head and agree with everything he says. The smartest man I know is just one more childish baiter that can't stand that he's forced to exist in the same world as people that hold opposing ideas.
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If people could just talk to each other with respect and decency it probably would never have gotten to the point where polar opposite ideas
How the bleep is this going to stop the democrats from stealing elections?
Does your philosophy textbook have an answer for this?
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How the bleep is this going to stop the democrats from stealing elections?
Does your philosophy textbook have an answer for this?
None of the people you know in your life are stealing elections. Most of them are decent people that for whatever reason have a certain set of political beliefs. They don't deserve your disdain, and you don't deserve theirs.
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None of the people you know in your life ....
You know nothing of the people in my life, good, bad or indifferent. You know nothing. Please make this the last time you make such a presumption.
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None of the people you know in your life are stealing elections. Most of them are decent people that for whatever reason have a certain set of political beliefs. They don't deserve your disdain, and you don't deserve theirs.
I just don't talk about politics with them, they won't change my mind, and I won't change theirs' so what's the point?
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You know nothing of the people in my life, good, bad or indifferent. You know nothing. Please make this the last time you make such a presumption.
You know left wing people directly involved in election fraud? Most people are decent be they left, right, center or nonpolitical.
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what's the point?
(https://wallpapercave.com/wp/1k2yS0V.jpg)
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Because everyone is convinced that they're right, and everything they believe is a life-or-death situation.
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It's a good question. Even those who are the same side frequently resort to invective, particularly when unable to present a good counter argument.
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Topic moved.
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"Why can't we all just get along?"
With a general societal decline in civil discourse, why would invective be surprising? People in the 'meat world' get shot because someone 'dissed' them, real or imagined, so swearing at one another takes a relatively mild role in comparison.
Yes, it would be nice if people could express their opinions without resorting to mock severed heads or burning effigies, not to mention the physical attacks on those presenting a different viewpoint (Charlottesville, e.g.)--which lead to defensive action, and a series of counter reprisals which escalate and inevitably lead to someone getting hurt or the destruction of property, be that a few blocks of a city, construction equipment, or attempts to cause disasters by shutting valves on active pipelines.
When the language of personal discourse is coarse, rife with 'F' bombs and other invective, we are beyond discussion of issues, minds (emotions) are made up, and little, if anything will penetrate the limbic responses which ensue.
There is no reasoning with a mob, only the threat of overwhelming violence or other negative and direct impacts upon the persons of those perpetrating their particular violence will stay their hand.
Unfortunately, much of what passes as political discourse is often just braying groupthink, the intellectual equivalent of the mob in the streets. Many of the positions espoused betray a lack of consideration or even education about the issue at hand, without which, the position espoused is not rationally considered in the first place.
Ask a Liberal why they embrace a particular stance, and few will be able to answer beyond "feelings" at their most rational. Epithets follow.
But one must make the distinction between disagreement and incivility, between factual analysis and prejudice, and between seeing solid, reasoned, guidance as persecution or 'hate'. Without the fundamental honesty it takes to dispassionately consider carefully vetted facts, and not just cherry-pick, but all the facts, the conflict between reality and belief will remain unresolved.
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It takes so little effort to not be rude and childish.
Shut up and sit down. No one asked your damn opinion.
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Shut up and sit down. No one asked your damn opinion.
Obviously it takes more effort for some people. Superhuman even.
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Obviously it takes more effort for some people. Superhuman even.
Tell me about it. It took a lot of effort for me to keep that above board and businesslike.
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My father and I came to blows, during Vietnam.
He was right. If we hadn't backed down, he would have cleaned my clock.
We got over it, and I learned a lot about politics from him.
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The tone is set from the top.
He's a loser, look at his ugly wife - she has the face of a pig - if they bring a knife you bring a gun - knock the crap out them, I'll pay your legal fees - when they go low we kick them - And on and on...
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The tone is set from the top.
He's a loser, look at his ugly wife - she has the face of a pig - if they bring a knife you bring a gun - knock the crap out them, I'll pay your legal fees - when they go low we kick them - And on and on...
Maybe from the top, but that fellow had a hand up his back: "After we win this election, it's our turn. Payback time. Everyone not with us is against us and they better be ready because we don't forget. The ones who helped us will be rewarded, the ones who opposed us will get what they deserve. There is going to be Hell to pay...."
Of course, with the discourse of the last Presidential Primaries, who said that might get a little fuzzy.
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Shut up and sit down. No one asked your damn opinion.
You're always good for comedic relief my friend.
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My father and I came to blows, during Vietnam.
He was right. If we hadn't backed down, he would have cleaned my clock.
We got over it, and I learned a lot about politics from him.
My dad is the quintessential liberal college professor. In his universe there's only his opinion and everybody that disagrees with it is too uneducated or too stupid to see reality.
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My dad is the quintessential liberal college professor. In his universe there's only his opinion and everybody that disagrees with it is too uneducated or too stupid to see reality.
Sorry to hear that, @Dexter. Sounds like you may get past his errors though. However, it does make Christmas and Thanksgiving interesting from now on out.
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However, it does make Christmas and Thanksgiving interesting from now on out.
Grandpa is extremely conservative. He will appreciate my support. haha
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Grandpa is extremely conservative. He will appreciate my support. haha
So, what happened to Dad?
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So, what happened to Dad?
He just sees the world differently than grandpa and he's too smart to understand that he doesn't know everything. A lot of people here have that problem too. :laugh: He's a decorated college professor that works at a well known university; you can't deny him that. All of that education never taught him that sometimes there isn't a clear right or wrong, and that sometimes people just don't agree on what should happen in the face of certain facts.
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My dad is the quintessential liberal college professor. In his universe there's only his opinion and everybody that disagrees with it is too uneducated or too stupid to see reality.
Have you asked your father the question you raise in this thread?
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Have you asked your father the question you raise in this thread?
He doesn't have a good answer. He thinks ideas I'm expressing are dangerous and so they deserve contempt. The truth is he may be a whole lot smarter than me but I think I'm more mature.
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He just sees the world differently than grandpa and he's too smart to understand that he doesn't know everything. A lot of people here have that problem too. :laugh: He's a decorated college professor that works at a well known university; you can't deny him that. All of that education never taught him that sometimes there isn't a clear right or wrong, and that sometimes people just don't agree on what should happen in the face of certain facts.
Ah, the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's very tough to overcome by those afflicted with it.
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How the bleep is this going to stop the democrats from stealing elections?
Does your philosophy textbook have an answer for this?
Oh cut me a break. Dexter's question deserves some introspection and thought. It is about time for folks to take back politics from those who see it as an exercise in dishonesty, demonization and implacable hate. Politics is, or should be, a means to an end - the election of honest leaders and the development of sound public policy. I have my share of liberal friends, and it is possible to converse civilly with them without assuming they want me ground to dust.
We are all Americans. It is hardly a radical notion to try to see things from the perspectives of others, and work to find common ground.
Things seem worse now because both parties have, in recent years, nominated ideological bigots. Clinton thinks we're deplorable and beyond redemption, Obama lied to the nation about amity and governed with enmity. And Trump's whole shtick is about picking at scabs until they bleed.
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Oh cut me a break. Dexter's question deserves some introspection and thought. It is about time for folks to take back politics from those who see it as an exercise in dishonesty, demonization and implacable hate. Politics is, or should be, a means to an end - the election of honest leaders and the development of sound public policy. I have my share of liberal friends, and it is possible to converse civilly with them without assuming they want me ground to dust.
We are all Americans. It is hardly a radical notion to try to see things from the perspectives of others, and work to find common ground.
Things seem worse now because both parties have, in recent years, nominated ideological bigots. Clinton thinks we're deplorable and beyond redemption, Obama lied to the nation about amity and governed with enmity. And Trump's whole shtick is about picking at scabs until they bleed.
@Jazzhead, you were doing fine until you got to Trump. Some people's "picking at scabs" is seen by many others, on both sides, as "willing and able to fight". Regardless of what you think of the man personally.
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He doesn't have a good answer. He thinks ideas I'm expressing are dangerous and so they deserve contempt. The truth is he may be a whole lot smarter than me but I think I'm more mature.
Your respect for your father's intelligence is admirable.
Conservatives used to say that we thought liberals were misguided, while liberals thought we were evil. This liberal insistence led to, for example, Ted Kennedy's "In Robert Bork's America" speech, and diminished the character of civil discourse years ago, although only from one side. The Republican thesis for many years, represented most clearly by the Bush family, was to "rise above" the rhetoric of the left.
Trump as antithesis inevitably emerged. The conventional wisdom in the media is that Trump has unilaterally diminished the character of civil discourse; I'm not a Trump supporter, but he is not guilty of this charge, he just expresses himself inartfully and with his characteristic narcissism.
People cannot respect each other's views because we view the opposing views not as misguided or simply different, but as evil. The liberal side started this, the progressives are pushing it to new extremes, and conservatives are finally recognizing this reality and adopting the same terms.
I have to deal with some of this in my own family. My blood kin get a pass - not to maintain without challenge stupid and destructive ideas, but to stay in relationship with me while doing so. Otherwise I limit my association with people who are convinced that my beliefs are evil.
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Things seem worse now because both parties have, in recent years, nominated ideological bigots. Clinton thinks we're deplorable and beyond redemption, Obama lied to the nation about amity and governed with enmity. And Trump's whole shtick is about picking at scabs until they bleed.
I think Trump is also bringing these issues to a head. He's trying to take big steps that will force us to decide who we are as a nation. I think people now more than in recent years sense that there's a lot on the line. That's still not a good reason for us to disrespect each other as individuals, though. Politicians for years have loved to throw gasoline on the fires that separate us and it has seemed like they haven't had a real interest in resolution. Good or bad, Trump is fighting for resolution; he's forcing hands. I think that's why the establishment pretty much universally hates him. They don't want resolution. They want us to stay divided and bicker about these things for as long as possible.
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I think Trump is also bringing these issues to a head. He's trying to take big steps that will force us to decide who we are as a nation. I think people now more than in recent years sense that there's a lot on the line. That's still not a good reason for us to disrespect each other as individuals, though. Politicians for years have loved to throw gasoline on the fires that separate us and it has seemed like they haven't had a real interest in resolution. Good or bad, Trump is fighting for resolution; he's forcing hands. I think that's why the establishment pretty much universally hates him. They don't want resolution. They want us to stay divided and bicker about these things for as long as possible.
Well said. As one of the frogs in the proverbial pot I'm not gonna fault Trump for cranking the temperature up. We all know where the leftward slow boil was taking us.
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@Jazzhead, you were doing fine until you got to Trump. Some people's "picking at scabs" is seen by many others, on both sides, as "willing and able to fight". Regardless of what you think of the man personally.
@Sanguine , It is easy to see the flaws and ideological bigotry in the "enemy". But the first step to reconciliation is to recognize that we fall prey to such flaws ourselves.
Fight fight fight, bite bite bite - Trump's played his part to turn contemporary politics into the Itchy and Scratchy Show.
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@Sanguine , It is easy to see the flaws and ideological bigotry in the "enemy". But the first step to reconciliation is to recognize that we fall prey to such flaws ourselves.
Fight fight fight, bite bite bite - Trump's played his part to turn contemporary politics into the Itchy and Scratchy Show.
I dislike a lot of Trump's antics, but I think he could be a catalyst for change in this country. He is a monkey wrench that has been tossed into the gears of the beast.
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@Sanguine , It is easy to see the flaws and ideological bigotry in the "enemy". But the first step to reconciliation is to recognize that we fall prey to such flaws ourselves.
Fight fight fight, bite bite bite - Trump's played his part to turn contemporary politics into the Itchy and Scratchy Show.
I can see why it would look that way to someone who doesn't believe the nation is locked in a mortal struggle to the death with the statist left where the other side abides by no standards of behavior.
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Trump happened because we saw two of the most Milquetoast Republican candidates lose to Obama. It was time to try something else.
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I dislike a lot of Trump's antics, but I think he could be a catalyst for change in this country. He is a monkey wrench that has been tossed into the gears of the beast.
He may well be the catalyst, but I have my doubts he will be the instrument of change. Trump has shaken up the GOP by remembering the lessons of Lee Atwater - to make the GOP appealing to working people, not just the monied elites.
Let's compare Trump and Reagan. Ronald Reagan instinctively knew to appeal to the working class - remember the Reagan Democrats, who are essentially yesterday's Trumpsters. But the difference in effectiveness between Trump and Reagan is like night and day. Reagan had his enemies -fierce ones - but he expanded the GOP's base and - almost uniquely in the 20th century - handed a winning GOP coalition to his successor. Trump, by contrast, has presided over a rip-roaring economy, but has lost the House and may well lose the Senate if we lose Florida and Murkowski flips.
I recognize what Trump has done, and the calalyst he represents - but I also have come to the conclusion that he must be replaced if the GOP is to avoid defeat in 2020.
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Trump happened because we saw two of the most Milquetoast Republican candidates lose to Obama. It was time to try something else.
Yes it was. Unfortunately all I see on the horizon are the same old milquetoast clowns lining up to try to snatch the crown back in 2020.
Heaven forbid they should succeed. Personally I do not believe there's any going back to the old order now. If the GOPe tries they might as well just hand power over to the left because there's no constituency for them any longer.
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I can see why it would look that way to someone who doesn't believe the nation is locked in a mortal struggle to the death with the statist left where the other side abides by no standards of behavior.
What standards of behavior does Trump abide by? The concept of a "mortal struggle" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Trump has allowed the "mainstream" Democratic party to radicalize itself. There's a reason we never saw the other party pitching outright socialism until Trump.
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He may well be the catalyst, but I have my doubts he will be the instrument of change. Trump has shaken up the GOP by remembering the lessons of Lee Atwater - to make the GOP appealing to working people, not just the monied elites.
Let's compare Trump and Reagan. Ronald Reagan instinctively knew to appeal to the working class - remember the Reagan Democrats, who are essentially yesterday's Trumpsters. But the difference in effectiveness between Trump and Reagan is like night and day. Reagan had his enemies -fierce ones - but he expanded the GOP's base and - almost uniquely in the 20th century - handed a winning GOP coalition to his successor. Trump, by contrast, has presided over a rip-roaring economy, but has lost the House and may well lose the Senate if we lose Florida and Murkowski flips.
I recognize what Trump has done, and the calalyst he represents - but I also have come to the conclusion that he must be replaced if the GOP is to avoid defeat in 2020.
There's a community on Reddit called "The Donald." It's hundreds of thousands of 18-30ish Trump supporters, many of which used to be liberals, and some of which even voted for Bernie Sanders. Trump attracts support from a lot of unexpected places. He might not be as weak as you think.
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What standards of behavior does Trump abide by? The concept of a "mortal struggle" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Trump has allowed the "mainstream" Democratic party to radicalize itself. There's a reason we never saw the other party pitching outright socialism until Trump.
So it was better when they were simply pretending to be OK with our system?
Personally I'm glad the cats out of the bag.
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I recognize what Trump has done, and the calalyst he represents - but I also have come to the conclusion that he must be replaced if the GOP is to avoid defeat in 2020.
With whom? Kasich?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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With whom?
That was my thought as well.
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That was my thought as well.
There is ONE person that I would choose over Trump, and he isn't going to run, and that's Texas Governor Greg Abbott.
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That was my thought as well.
The bottom-line is that the GOP and Trump better realize that they are stuck with each other and they'd better figure out real quick how to work together to win in 2020.
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With whom? Kasich?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
No, not Kasich. Kasich has used up all his good will with me. A credible opponent for Trump can't be a NeverTrumper. Yeah, I don't like Trump's bullying and coarse style, but I credit him with the good that he's done. Any credible challenger has to be able to say to Trump's base that the problem is one of gravitas, competence, civility and tone, and not his focus on America for Americans. The ideal challenger is one that has served Trump loyally and with distinction, but can bring to the table those qualities that Trump lacks.
Right now, the name I want to see put her hat in the ring is Nikki Haley.
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I just don't talk about politics with them, they won't change my mind, and I won't change theirs' so what's the point?
Precisely what I've done.
Ever since Obama made them all swoon, there's no rational thought with even the most rational liberal friends/family.
If I want to maintain relationships with them (and I do), the subject of politics never comes up.
It's made my real life life much more pleasant.
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I take discussing politics with liberals in the current environment as a challenge. I'm notorious on the train. It's sport!
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:2popcorn:
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Hmm......... certainly sounded like a noisy therapy session.
Hopefully it will bear fruit!