This is terribly sad for everyone involved, the boy, his family, the cops.
Eff the cops until I get more details. Why did they shoot him? Obviously the kid couldn't have fired any shots at them.
Carling, in AZ 12 year old shot and killed a teacher. Today a 14 year old did the same in MA. Cops are probably more aware of these killings than most. Children can kill. They know it and must protect themselves. And if you think these police officers took pleasure or are indifferent to what has happened you are living in a very unpleasant fantasy world.
It was a toy gun, and the kid wasn't shooting it. Boo hoo for the cops who shot the defenseless child.It was a pellet gun and looked like the real thing. No orange tip to denote a toy. They told him to put it down twice and he didn't he pointed it toward them.
It was a pellet gun and looked like the real thing. No orange tip to denote a toy. They told him to put it down twice and he didn't he pointed it toward them.
What would you have done? :shrug:
Actually I was wondering if the boy perhaps did not speak English and understand what the police we telling him to do.
It was a pellet gun and looked like the real thing. No orange tip to denote a toy. They told him to put it down twice and he didn't he pointed it toward them.
What would you have done? :shrug:
The article above says it is "not clear" whether the teen pointed the gun at the cops.
The main directive in today's police departments is to make sure the cops themselves are protected. So they seem to have adopted the position of shooting at the slightest provocation. No doubt these lawmen will say the kid pointed the gun at them; he's dead, so there's no one to contradict them. Incidents like these undermine the credibility of the police. Now these two hot dogs have the blood of a young kid who had a toy gun on their hands.
He got shot because there wasn't a dog around to shoot.
Actually I was wondering if the boy perhaps did not speak English and understand what the police we telling him to do.
The police officer interviewed today said he did. Plus they said if it was a real AK it would penetrate the vests and the car's doors
How do you guys feel about small recording devices being mandatory for police to carry?
The police officer interviewed today said he did. Plus they said if it was a real AK it would penetrate the vests and the car's doors
If you're going to trust law enforcement to enable these devices, forget it.
That's why it's always a good thing for bystanders to fire up their Android phone video cameras when cops come on the scene.
Last week, a cop in Dallas shot a mentally ill man who was holding a knife but never raised his hands in a threatening manner. The cop who shot the man said, in an affidavit, "The suspect advanced with arms raised in a threatening manner." Luckily, a neighbor videoed the encounter and the cop will likely be fired and brought up on charges.
Plus they said if it was a real AK it would penetrate the vests and the car's doors
Anyone who is dumb enough to point a weapon, real or fake, at a police officer, is likely going to get shot.
I hope the sonofabitch who shot this teenager is tormented for the rest of his miserable life by what he's done.
If you're going to trust law enforcement to enable these devices, forget it.
That's why it's always a good thing for bystanders to fire up their Android phone video cameras when cops come on the scene.
Last week, a cop in Dallas shot a mentally ill man who was holding a knife but never raised his hands in a threatening manner. The cop who shot the man said, in an affidavit, "The suspect advanced with arms raised in a threatening manner." Luckily, a neighbor videoed the encounter and the cop will likely be fired and brought up on charges.
Funny how some will try, convict, and execute a police officer despite not having a clue what happened.
Funny how some will try, convict, and execute a police officer despite not having a clue what happened.
A kid here in Texas brought a pellet gun to school, but it looked exactly like a 9mm S&W. When he was confronted by two officers, they ordered him to put it down numerous times, but when he pointed it at them, they fired first and killed him. It was ruled a justified shooting by the department and grand jury. Nearly every witness backed the officers because to everyone, it appeared the gun was real.
So you accuse me of doing the same very thing you've been doing all thread. Typical.
You accuse the cops of executing the kid and automatically assume they are guilty without any facts whatsoever. Perhaps you should wait and see what happened, but I don't think your clear hated of police officers will allow that.
Carling, in AZ 12 year old shot and killed a teacher. Today a 14 year old did the same in MA. Cops are probably more aware of these killings than most. Children can kill. They know it and must protect themselves. And if you think these police officers took pleasure or are indifferent to what has happened you are living in a very unpleasant fantasy world.I listen to both sides of these things, but often it seems the cops are too hasty to resolve a matter which doesn't need to leave anybody dead.
I listen to both sides of these things, but often it seems the cops are too hasty to resolve a matter which doesn't need to leave anybody dead.
In my town multiple police officers shot a teenage girl, on a school playground. The girl have a small knife.
In a town nearby, multiple police officers beat a mentally ill man to death.
Eff the cops until I get more details. Why did they shoot him? Obviously the kid couldn't have fired any shots at them.
I listen to both sides of these things, but often it seems the cops are too hasty to resolve a matter which doesn't need to leave anybody dead.
In my town multiple police officers shot a teenage girl, on a school playground. The girl have a small knife.
In a town nearby, multiple police officers beat a mentally ill man to death.
Actually I was wondering if the boy perhaps did not speak English and understand what the police we telling him to do.
Geesh.l...it's about time somebody suggested this, Rap.
That's exactly what probably happened.
That said, what kind of a cop can shoot a 13 year old boy that is not in the act of committing a crime?
Geesh.l...it's about time somebody suggested this, Rap.
That's exactly what probably happened.
That said, what kind of a cop can shoot a 13 year old boy that is not in the act of committing a crime?
Anyone who is dumb enough to point a weapon, real or fake, at a police officer, is likely going to get shot.
The Santa Rosa Police Department, in conjunction with the Sonoma County District Attorney’s Office and Petaluma Police Department continue to investigate this incident. Anyone with information about this incident is requested to contact the Santa Rosa Police Department at (707) 543-3590.
Jill R. Ravitch, District Attorney
Contact:Jill R. Ravitch, District AttorneyAddress:Sonoma County District Attorney’s Office
600 Administration Drive, Room 212 J
Santa Rosa, CA 95403
Local FBI Field Office
FBI San Francisco
450 Golden Gate Avenue, 13th. Floor
San Francisco, California 94102-9523
sanfrancisco.fbi.gov
(415) 553-7400
After interviewing the involved deputies, the witnesses identified to this point, and examining the crime scene, the following information can be released.
The deputies were riding together in the same patrol car. They were driving a marked Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office patrol vehicle and they were dressed in their standard patrol uniforms. While driving in the area of Moorland Avenue and West Robles Avenue they observed a subject walking northbound on the west side of Moorland Avenue just north of the intersection with West Robles Avenue. The subject was wearing a blue “hoodie” style sweatshirt and shorts.
One of the deputies immediately recognized that the subject was carrying what appeared to be an assault style rifle, similar to an AK-47 assault rifle. The weapon was in the subject’s left hand and his hand was at his left side. The deputies immediately called for emergency assistance from other deputies in the area and they broadcast their location. The deputies continued northbound through the intersection and pulled into the southbound lane and stopped their vehicle. One of the witnesses described that he saw the patrol car’s overhead rotating lights come on and he heard a “chirp” of the vehicle’s siren.
Both deputies exited their vehicle, but maintained cover behind their open passenger door. One of the deputies shouted at the subject to, “put the gun down.” A witness in the area reported that he heard the deputy shout two times to “put the gun down.” Initially, the subject’s back was toward the deputies. When the deputy shouted at the subject, the subject began to turn toward the deputies. One of the deputies described that as the subject was turning toward him the barrel of the assault rifle was rising up and turning in his direction.
The deputy feared for his safety, the safety of his partner, and the safety of the community members in the area. He believed the subject was going to shoot at him or his partner. The deputy described that he is aware an assault weapon of this type is capable of firing a bullet that can penetrate his body armor, the metal exterior of his car, and the walls of the residential houses behind him. The deputy then fired several rounds from his service weapon at the subject, striking him at least one time. The subject immediately fell to the ground.
The deputies approached the subject, handcuffed him, and immediately began life-saving measures. They called for an emergency medical response and both Fire and EMS were on scene within minutes.
Andy Lopez Cruz, age 13, died at the scene. An autopsy is scheduled for Thursday, October 24, 2013.
Recovered at the scene were a replica AK-47 assault style rifle, and a replica of a handgun. The rifle was located on the ground next to the subject. The handgun was located concealed in the waistband of the subject. The rifle had a brown stock and fore grip, and a dark colored plastic body. It did not have the traditionally orange tip of a replica firearm. The handgun was clear plastic and did have an orange tip at the end of the barrel.
So I am calling upon our experts, Sinkspur and Carling especially, to contact the appropriate authorities and tell them what really happened since you seem to know. Don't let this heinous deed go unpunished.
Oh, and do let us know the reception you receive from the investigating bodies.
Ismael Mondragon saw the boy carrying the rifle and warned him to put it away. He saw the events unfold in his rearview mirror.
"He pull over to the kid just walking and opened the door and shoot him, three shots," Mondragon said. "I did not hear anything like [a warning]. I am 50 feet away but I am stopping as I am watching."
The deputies who shot the boy are on leave. Santa Rosa police, Petaluma police and the district attorney's office are investigating the shooting.
This is the third fatal shooting by Sonoma County sheriff's deputies this year. The deputies are on administrative leave.
Carling, thank you for your continuing commentary on the situation in Santa Rosa/Sonoma County, but don't you think you would better serve the cause of humanity and the truth if you were simply to do this?:
So I am calling upon our experts, Sinkspur and Carling especially, to contact the appropriate authorities and tell them what really happened since you seem to know.
Because there seem to be several posters on here who know what happened in this incident, I have, in the interest of public safety and full disclosure, done some research relative to Santa Rosa. So for you know it alls here are the people and organizations you contact in order to provide your assistance and evidence.
"Anyone with information". Quite a few on here it seems.
The Sonoma County District Attorney (also listed as a responsible party)
If needed, to avoid a cover up:
In addition, the Santa Rosa Police Dept has issued a press release on the shooting, which we all know is mostly nothing more than a tissue of lies; still:
So I am calling upon our experts, Sinkspur and Carling especially, to contact the appropriate authorities and tell them what really happened since you seem to know. Don't let this heinous deed go unpunished.
Oh, and do let us know the reception you receive from the investigating bodies.
This is a warning that this thread is slowly spiraling out of control....
What else is new? :whistle: (the spiraling....not the warning)
Ah yes. A nice neat, tidy story with all the loose ends closed up. Of course what else could one expect given a day to get it all cleaned up. Almost causes one to overlook the fact a 13 year old with a toy gun was shot dead. The cops should be commended for their stealthy tactics. The kid never even got off a shot thus totally avoiding the threat to the cops, their vehicle and the surrounding neighborhood from the plastic rounds the menace in a hoodie was packing.
The deputies' statements will back up their actions in this case. That's a given. However, I see no reason to think the department will cover up anything after a full investigation if the events turn out to be different than what the officers said.
Just one more caveat, though. Someone made a comment up thread, that the extreme left and extreme right share some things in common. I believe that. I believe that commonality is the shared belief that it is prudent to always "question authority." That's a mantra I learned when I was part of the antiwar movement in the 60s. I believe that still applies today. The Obama administration comes to mind.
Look for a National campaign to outlaw toy guns....PERIOD!
Look for a National campaign to outlaw toy guns....PERIOD!
It would probably be better to disarm some LEO that are not properly trained or don't have the aptitude for their work
This is the essence of it. To be able to question authority is to have the freedom to do so. Once that goes, you become a serf or a slave.
Today we learn that 8 shots fired by the deputy were within 10 seconds of their first report of a suspicious person (according to the police's own time line) and all shots fired came from one deputy meaning the other one may not have seen cause to shoot. Something way wrong here
The main directive in today's police departments is to make sure the cops themselves are protected.
Residents of a Northern California community expressed skepticism Thursday about a sheriff's deputy's decision to shoot a popular 13-year-old boy who was carrying a pellet gun that looked like an assault rifle.
A preliminary autopsy report released Thursday said Andy Lopez was shot seven times, and the two fatal wounds were in his right hip and the right side of his chest.
The final autopsy results won't be ready for several weeks.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people marched more than 3 miles from Santa Rosa City Hall to the field where Andy Lopez was killed Tuesday afternoon. Some lit candles and placed flowers at a makeshift memorial with printed pictures of the victim, stuffed animals and a balloon that read "RIP Andy L." An Aztec dance performance followed the march.
"It's very tragic and sad. It just happened so quick," said Noel Nunez, 15, a sophomore at nearby Elsie Allen High School. Still, he said deputies should have been able to tell the difference between a real gun and a replica weapon.
A Sonoma County sheriff's deputy twice told the boy to drop the weapon, but he instead raised it in the deputy's direction, police said at a news conference Wednesday.
"The deputy's mindset was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot," said Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry, whose agency is investigating the shooting in the suburban town of roughly 170,000 people. It's about 50 miles northwest of San Francisco in California's wine country.
The gun looked just like an AK-47 assault rifle, with a black body and ammunition magazine, and a brown butt and grip. Only after the shooting did deputies realize it was a plastic replica, authorities said.
"Nobody should die for a misunderstanding, especially not a young boy who hasn't even started his life. It's just really sad knowing that," said Viviany Diaz Agirra Torres, 17. Torres said she wanted to know whether police gave Andy time to put the gun down before opening fire.
Hundreds of community members marched Wednesday night to remember the teen and protest the shooting, chanting "We need justice," the Press Democrat of Santa Rosa reported.
Police said two deputies were riding in a marked patrol vehicle and were in uniforms when they spotted Andy in a hooded sweatshirt and shorts at 3:14 p.m. Tuesday. His back was turned toward the deputies, and they did not realize he was a boy.
One of the deputies saw what appeared to be an assault rifle similar to an AK-47 in the teen's left hand. The deputies pulled over and took cover behind one of the vehicle's doors, according to police.
A witness reported seeing the patrol car's overhead emergency lights turn on and hearing the chirp of a siren, police said.
One of the deputies twice ordered Andy to drop the weapon, according to a witness, police said.
The teen was about 20 or 30 feet away from the deputies with his back toward them when he began turning around with what one deputy described as the barrel of the rifle rising up and turning in his direction, police said.
One deputy then fired several rounds, striking the boy at least once, Henry said. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
Investigators said they believe eight rounds were fired. The timeline released by Santa Rosa police says those shots were fired within 10 seconds of the deputies' first report of a suspicious person.
At Wednesday's news conference, Santa Rosa police displayed the pellet gun alongside a real AK-47. The two appeared strikingly similar.
Deputies also found a plastic handgun in the boy's waistband, police said.
The pellet gun did not have an orange-tipped barrel like other replica firearms, including the plastic handgun found in the boy's waistband, police said.
The deputies, who have not been identified, have been placed on administrative leave, which is standard after a shooting, sheriff's officials said.
Assistant Sheriff Lorenzo Duenas told the Press Democrat that the deputy who shot the teen is a 24-year veteran and his partner, who did not fire his weapon, is a new hire.
(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/8d/a8d4937d-06b9-5424-95e4-e1b5735156fc/5269e4112145c.preview-620.jpg)
I'm not trying to hijack the thread but this is the VERY reason people need weapons; the cops are not there to protect the citizens first, they are protecting themselves and helping the citizen IF THEY CAN. :pondering:
What is the name of the officer who murdered the kid? Why can't we get that information, if the shooting was completely justified, as Santa Rosa County LE claims?
Because stuff like this blows up on social media and they end up having to deal with death threats among other things.
The police, ostensibly, are employed by the citizens to keep the community safe. Will we ever find out the name of the trigger-happy cop?
If that police officer did anything wrong or unlawful in his actions he should be punished to the full extent of the law and I will be the first to call for it. However, the problem we have on here is that several posters have already convicted him due to sympathy for the victim and/or the fact the shooter is a police officer. Guilty!
In truth no one on here knows what actually happened though from their posts you might conclude otherwise. If they do know I provided plenty of information on how to contact the proper authorities and provide whatever evidence they have. Gee, I wonder if anyone has taken me up on that. Anyone?
Then, too, I am still waiting for proof of this statement:
Speaking of racism, I've read enough of your comments on Mexican immigration over the years to bias my opinion toward what I think is your real reason for protecting the white officers.
Where's your proof, Carling? Or, failing that, your apology?
If that police officer did anything wrong or unlawful in his actions he should be punished to the full extent of the law and I will be the first to call for it. However, the problem we have on here is that several posters have already convicted him due to sympathy for the victim and/or the fact the shooter is a police officer. Guilty!
In truth no one on here knows what actually happened though from their posts you might conclude otherwise. If they do know I provided plenty of information on how to contact the proper authorities and provide whatever evidence they have. Gee, I wonder if anyone has taken me up on that. Anyone?
Seven rounds found at the scene. Three in the body of the boy, FOUR IN OTHER PLACES!!
In other words, this "veteran" was firing wildly. What possesses a cop of 24 years to be scared out of his mind because a kid is turning around with a gun and he decides to nearly unload his service weapon, and the rookie doesn't fire a shot?
An eyewitness says the kid dropped with the first hit, but this hot dog kept firing at him on the ground.
Something is very wrong in law enforcement today. Itchy trigger fingers are the order of the day, whether at human beings or dogs.
I am also beginning to wonder where the moderators are when it comes to that little piece of libel? Is it acceptable on this Forum to make such a venomous and unsubstantiated accusation like that and not even be mildly rebuked for having done so? That, too, strikes me as more than odd.
Get off your high horse :silly:
My high horse, is it? By calling for restraint, an end to the extravagant rhetoric that borders on hysteria (First it was OK to shoot your dogs. Now it is OK to shoot your kids), and requesting that those who claim to know what happened contact the appropriate authorities, I'm the one on a "high horse"? Naw, I don't think so.
. Carling should have apologized, or, in the least, backed up his statement. Since he couldn't do that, he was wrong. Period!
Didn't see it Cincy....
Carling and other members..
Cincinnatus is not the same Cincinnatus that has posted on FR for years so please don't confuse FR's Cincinnatus past comments with our Cincy.
Its amazing that when I first saw the kid's picture, my sympathies swung to the cop. Remember the pictures of Trayvon? Mostly, they are good and can add to a discussion but they can have the opposite effect. Just a thought.
Its amazing that when I first saw the kid's picture, my sympathies swung to the cop. Remember the pictures of Trayvon? Mostly, they are good and can add to a discussion but they can have the opposite effect. Just a thought.
Not me. When I saw the kid's picture, made me madder.
This cop's actions are indefensible. But they will be defended, and likely excused.
By the way, I, too, did not know our Cincinnatus was a different Cincinnatus from the Cincinnatus that haunted that other place. :shrug:
Posted: 1:10 p.m. Monday, Oct. 28, 2013
Deputy identified in shooting of Santa Rosa teen
KTVU and Wires
SANTA ROSA, Calif. — The Sonoma County Sheriff's Office has identified the deputy who fatally shot 13-year-old Andy Lopez last Tuesday as 48-year-old Erick Gelhaus.
Gelhaus is a 24-year veteran of the sheriff's office who was assigned to the day shift patrol at the time of the shooting. He is also a field training officer and firearms instructor in policy and procedure, safety and the use of force, Assistant Sheriff Lorenzo Duenas said.
Gelhaus and another deputy were on patrol at about 3:15 p.m. Tuesday when they saw Lopez near Moorland and West Robles avenues, southwest of Santa Rosa.
Lopez was carrying an airsoft BB gun that looked like an authentic AK-47 assault rifle, as he walked down Moorland Avenue, according to the Santa Rosa Police Department, one of the agencies investigating the incident.
The deputies took cover behind the open doors of their patrol car and ordered Lopez to drop the rifle, Santa Rosa police said.
As Lopez turned around, the deputies said they saw the barrel of the rifle rise up, and Gelhaus opened fire, according to Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry.
He fired eight shots at Lopez within 10 seconds, Henry said. Seven of the shots hit Lopez, who died at the scene.
A replica handgun made of plastic was found in his waistband, Henry said.
The deputy who did not fire his weapon is not being identified because he is a witness to the shooting. He has 11 years' experience with another Bay Area law enforcement agency, and had recently joined the sheriff's office and was training with Gelhaus at the time, Duenas said.
Duenas said the sheriff's office has received general and direct threats of "an eye-for-an-eye" nature since the shooting. Both deputies are on paid administrative leave.
Petaluma police and the Sonoma County District Attorney's Office are also investigating the shooting, and the FBI is conducting a separate, independent investigation.
There have been several protest marches in Santa Rosa since the shooting, as well as daily vigils and prayer sessions at a memorial at the shooting site. Another march is scheduled for Tuesday afternoon.
Several hundred people attended a wake for Lopez at a Windsor funeral home on Sunday.
Gelhaus lost his nerve.
A 24 year veteran should know better.
I doubt he lost his nerve. Maybe 24 yrs on the force and not one kill to his name was making him feel unfulfilled
Andy Lopez Family Files Federal Lawsuit, Claiming Violation of Fourth Amendment
The parents of a 13-year-old Santa Rosa boy killed by a sheriff's deputy who thought the airsoft rifle he was carrying was real has filed a lawsuit over their son's death, claiming the deputy who shot him used excessive force and had a history of "reckless" acts.
Andy Lopez was a "charismatic kid" who was "shot without provocation or cause," in violation of his Fourth Amendment rights, according to the suit (PDF), which Rodrigo Lopez and Sujey Cruz Casarez filed Monday in San Francisco federal court.
They are represented by Casillas, Moreno and Associates, based in Montebello, Calif., which won a $24 million verdict after a Los Angeles police officer there shot a 13-year-old boy playing cops and robbers, leaving him paralyzed.
At a news conference with their lawyers, Andy's father asked for "justice," and relatives wiped away tears. Attorney Arnoldo Casillas said the lawsuit over Andy Lopez's death will ensure an "honest" investigation into what happened.
The suit names Sonoma County and Deputy Erick Gelhaus, the sheriff's deputy who fatally shot Andy on Oct. 22. Gelhaus's attorney said in an interview with NBC Bay Area on Monday that his client only fired because he was staring down the barrel of a rifle that looked real
I'm not that cynical. Today's police forces have it drummed into them that THEY should never place themselves at risk.Had a discussion with a younger cop on an unrelated subject a few days ago. It was like he didn't hear a word I said.
That's why cops seems to be so trigger-happy. Shooting dogs, kids, mentally ill people. We never heard of this shooting-gallery mentality until recently.