DO NOT GOOGLE THIS! The tamest pictures are horrific.
That was a Dirty-Double-Dog-Dare, wasn't it?
So..............do I understand this right?
People are doing this to themselves on purpose?? **nononono*
“The DEA is very concerned about the recent news that several patients who were treated at Presence St. Joseph Medical Center in Joliet, [who] had symptoms consistent with the use of the drug Krokodil. Our agents and task force officers are on the street canvassing the area, and trying to track down any leads. We want to be pro-active and get out ahead of the curve on this, but until we can get our hands on the drugs and people who are trafficking in it, we won’t know the extent of what we’re dealing with. What we do know is that if this is Krokodil, it is extremely dangerous and we’re doing everything within our authority to stop it."
Aren't there enough real drugs out there anymore?You'd think so, wouldn't you? I'll pass on the paint thinner "high," thanks.
Aren't there enough real drugs out there anymore?
Yep. Some people will do anything to escape, and junkies are not what you'd call good at long term planning.
As a public service to both members and guests:
DO NOT GOOGLE THIS! The tamest pictures are horrific.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I'll pass on the paint thinner "high," thanks.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? I'll pass on the paint thinner "high," thanks.
Drug addicts make and use this stuff because it gives a heroine like euphoria, but for a fraction of the cost. You can pretty easily make this stuff with cheap, everyday things you have laying around your house. The part where it causes necrosis doesn't matter to them, because for a drug addict all that matters is the here and now.
Exactly! You and the vast majority of people will pass on using any drug whether prohibited or not.
So, let's remove prohibition, institute treatment in it's place and empty overcrowded jails of nonviolent drug "criminals."
I completely agree with you. They have shown that the war on drugs has pretty much been a failure. When lots and lots of people want an illegal product, like pot, the demand for it simply goes up when they throw the dealers in prison. When the demand goes up, it makes the product more expensive, which makes it even more profitable to be a drug dealer. Once it becomes more profitable, more, new dealers are going to pop up all over the place and bring the demand back down. The only way you're going to kill the black market is to make what they are supplying legal and treat the problems it causes to the minority of people that are doing them whether it is legal or not.
And legalizing alcohol and tobacco has accomplished what besides feeding the government coffers? Don't both of those rank pretty high on the cause of death lists in the US?
Well, the organized crime gangs that made all of their money off selling booze illegally went away. Also, saying alcohol and tobacco are bad for you but still legal is not a justification for keeping drugs that are not as bad for you as those illegal.
There is no such thing as a safe drug, they all cause problems. Pot is always touted as being "safer" than alcohol. I think much of that is purely a numbers game anyway since there are far more drinkers than pot smokers. Pot is often labeled as 'natural', well, so are poppies, coca, mushrooms, peyote, hell a good southern sour mash starts with corn.
Don't know what the solution is but legalizing is not really viable. We don't need another version of Switzerland's Needle Park in this county.
There is no such thing as a safe drug, they all cause problems. Pot is always touted as being "safer" than alcohol. I think much of that is purely a numbers game anyway since there are far more drinkers than pot smokers. Pot is often labeled as 'natural', well, so are poppies, coca, mushrooms, peyote, hell a good southern sour mash starts with corn.
Don't know what the solution is but legalizing is not really viable. We don't need another version of Switzerland's Needle Park in this county.
Legalizing drugs will make their use even more wide spread and acceptable.
Do we really want younger and younger kids, and more and more people on hard drugs?
You're right.
NOT a viable solution.
It's impossible to overdose on pot. There is not a single recorded death that was solely caused my marijuana use. It has been proven that it doesn't actually cause cancer, and it has also been proven that it does not actually cause any kind of brain damage. They can even make breathalyzers to test for it. Alcohol and tobacco use are among the leading causes of death in the United States. It's not even close, not by a long shot. As far as pot in particular goes, it is not even remotely close to as bad as tobacco or alcohol.
That is because you are comparing apples to cheese. Tobacco and alcohol are widely and readily available at all times, provided you're of age or have a convincing enough fake ID. Pot is less so in most of the country, so you simply don't have the same baseline of users to make an accurate comparison.
As far as brain damage goes, there are studies which state pot does not cause brain damage, true. There are also studies which claim that excessive use causes serious loss of cognitive abilities and may trigger various psychological diseases. It depends who you ask, really. It is, admittedly, a rather good treatment for depression, migraines and chronic pain.
And legalizing alcohol and tobacco has accomplished what besides feeding the government coffers? Don't both of those rank pretty high on the cause of death lists in the US?Fedgov saves money on early deaths, versus elder care for people into their 70s, and 80s.
As if we don't already have it on every corner and alcove already?
Exactly. I think people underestimate just how many people smoke weed, and just how much of it gets sold everywhere all the time.
I have no issues with legalizing pot. The rest if the drugs I do have problems with... including many prescription drugs like Vicodin, Oxycodone, codeine 3, etc. A substance in pot helps glaucoma, nausea from chemo, etc... while the prescription drugs are much more addictive and damaging. I would also rather someone smoke pot than take Meth...One if the most diabolical addictions there is.
After nearly 20 years of AA meetings (and remaining continuously sober), I've heard a lot of stories, good bad and in between. Fear of jail does little to stop an addict or alcoholic from using again.
Fear of jail does little to stop an addict or alcoholic from using again.
Some of them even prefer jail. Free healthcare, three meals a day, TV and a bed to sleep in is a lot more appealing than being a homeless drug addict.
Some of them even prefer jail. Free healthcare, three meals a day, TV and a bed to sleep in is a lot more appealing than being a homeless drug addict.From my experience, and borrowing wisdom of others, a practicing addict or alcoholic is partly mentally ill. Some say insane.
What about the elderly addicted to pain killers? Trapped, powerless. I have recently gained empathy for them, taking them because they are addicted long beyond the underlying pain issue.
I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.
I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.Knowledge and information should be dispensed by the doctor prescribing the drugs.
Okay, I couldn't stay away.
Exactly! You and the vast majority of people will pass on using any drug whether prohibited or not.
So, let's remove prohibition, institute treatment in it's place and empty overcrowded jails of nonviolent drug "criminals."
Savings and benefits to society will easily outstrip the current cost of funding an interdictive police state with it's infringements on liberty and other unintended consequences of prohibition—like flesh eating drugs.
This is how we stop these outbreaks of self abuse. Stop "hardening" non violent drug users by helping them make a better life rather than by making criminals of them. Drug abuse should be seen in the same light as other personality disorders. You wouldn't make it a crime to be obsessive-compulsive? Would you?
Legalizing drugs will make their use even more wide spread and acceptable.
Do we really want younger and younger kids, and more and more people on hard drugs?
ML, you know that I respect you greatly but the problem with your position is with what you will allow. Alcohol is a drug and cigarettes contain drugs that will kill you or ruin your health long term. Both have far more negative impact on society than all hard drugs combined. So to be consistent with those statements above you must be in favor of banning both of those substances also.
Are you?
Completely agree AC. Most of these druggies need help - they don't need to be locked up with hardened violent criminals where they learn Crime 101 while they're there. Most burglaries and thefts are to pay for drugs. This hits us all. What we are doing now - Is. Not. Working.
Just for the record, though I strongly disagree with legalizing hard drugs, I completely agree with lessening the punishment for using them (selling..........that's a different story).
Putting people in jail for marijuana use is absurd. Medical care and community service seem appropriate for those addicted to more dangerous drugs.
Prison is not a good plan.
Hard drugs have always been illegal because they are so harmful (the greater negative impact of alcohol and tobacco is due to greater use because they are legal).Just factually in error. Hemp-cannabis-marijuana was legal. Cocaine was legal. Opiates are legal, but controlled. LSD was legal.
Just factually in error. Hemp-cannabis-marijuana was legal. Cocaine was legal. Opiates are legal, but controlled. LSD was legal.
If one compared the total societal costs (Medical, lost work, family abuses, etc) associated with alcohol to Marijuana, it might shock folks.
There were strong justifications, for taking the Prohibition experiment. But it did not work.
If it's not against the law for people to use heroin, more people will use it, and there will be more young people who are not afraid to use it.
I stand corrected on that (people who are trying to get illegal drugs legalized generally spend more time researching than I do. My knowledge only goes so far).There are already young people using heroin, and alcohol and tobacco.
Total societal costs from alcohol will obviously be higher because it is a legal drug and more widely used.
That doesn't mean that other drugs, especially harder ones, should become legal.
If it's not against the law for people to use heroin, more people will use it, and there will be more young people who are not afraid to use it.
It's a very, very bad idea.
There are already young people using heroin, and alcohol and tobacco.
People persisted during Prohibition to use alcohol. People have persisted during the War on Drugs, to use Drugs.
Is it the job of government to be involved with all such matters? They spend so much money, turn people into criminals, turn people towards the criminal lifestyle and community, and fail to curb use.
Many families admit if some marijuana relieved an elderly person's pain, they would be fine with that.
People use legal opiates in the form of prescription narcotic pain killers--a much abused issue. (aka heroin in pill form--Oxycontin, Vicodin, Norco, Percocet, etc.)
I could care less if some idiots cook up meth or krocodil and rot their teeth or shed their skin. When they break a law, lock them up and throw away the key. Give them bread, water and hard labor.
Side note - Congratulations! Four years for me next month.
Drug addicts make and use this stuff because it gives a heroine like euphoria, but for a fraction of the cost. You can pretty easily make this stuff with cheap, everyday things you have laying around your house. The part where it causes necrosis doesn't matter to them, because for a drug addict all that matters is the here and now.
What actually causes the necrosis?
Side note - Congratulations! Four years for me next month.
What actually causes the necrosis?
Back to my point. Crime around drug use is a result of it's illegality. Prohibition means bigger government, higher taxes, more agencies, bureaucrats, cops and more privacy concerns. Prohibition also disproportionately affects minority communities.
I'd rather we shift focus away from interdiction and toward treatment on demand. There would be lower costs and less danger of becoming a police state and infringing on even more of our constitutional liberties.
I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.
My experience has been different. The doctors I work with, if anything, under-prescribe pain meds. They have an almost pathological fear that their patients will become addicted. This results in needless suffering. Many hospitals in response to this tendency of doctors to under-prescribe have posted their pledge in waiting rooms to say, in effect, don't worry. If you are in pain we'll give you the drugs necessary to control your pain.
http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock
Those are shocking numbers from the "land of the free" for what is essentially a personal weakness, or simply a mental health issue. I sincerely believe as a nation we are mishandling drug abuse policy.
Out here most of the doctors with chronic pain patients will now send them to "Pain" centers and let doctors who specialize in chronic pain decide on the proper meds.
Those are shocking numbers from the "land of the free" for what is essentially a personal weakness, or simply a mental health issue. I sincerely believe as a nation we are mishandling drug abuse policy.
Thanks for stepping up, E. Will hold my question open for the strong "lock 'em up" republicans and conservatives to weigh in.
By the way, folks, being drug-free is the way to go. It's fantastic. So let's help others get there without arresting and jailing them, with all the negative that results from that.
I share a similar attitude. It was a long time in evolving but I eventually came to the same point that you so well stated. I'm not for drug use, I'm simply against the way we're handling it now.
I don't think you should legalize deadly drugs. I don't see anything wrong with responsible people using recreational drugs.
The biggest thing that I think should be done, is to examine why our society has so many people willing to risk their health or their life just to get high. If we can "fix" what is wrong in our society, then I don't think we would see the drug problem we're seeing now. It's our society that is sick - addicted to the drugs of dependence, the easy-way-out, short term thinking, lack of accountability - and no spiritual core to keep us strong.
You jump to conclusions. Personally, I have never said anything about legalizing any substance. I have always maintained substances should be decriminalized, and abuse handled by medical professionals—not the criminal justice system. Also, I don't think anyone wants to see heroin sold in Walgreens, except maybe the addict.
You can buy drugs at Walgreens that are just as bad as long as you have permission from a doctor.
You jump to conclusions. Personally, I have never said anything about legalizing any substance. I have always maintained substances should be decriminalized, and abuse handled by medical professionals—not the criminal justice system. Also, I don't think anyone wants to see heroin sold in Walgreens, except maybe the addict.
One more thought.
How many of the law and order conservatives here think that we should have arrested Rush Limbaugh because he abused hydrocodone?
Now, how many of the law and order conservatives here think we should arrest that black teenager in the inner city who is taking and selling hydrocodone?
I hope your response is not *crickets*
One more thought.
How many of the law and order conservatives here think that we should have arrested Rush Limbaugh because he abused hydrocodone?
Now, how many of the law and order conservatives here think we should arrest that black teenager in the inner city who is taking and selling hydrocodone?
I hope your response is not *crickets*
I don't think you should legalize deadly drugs. I don't see anything wrong with responsible people using recreational drugs.
The biggest thing that I think should be done, is to examine why our society has so many people willing to risk their health or their life just to get high. If we can "fix" what is wrong in our society, then I don't think we would see the drug problem we're seeing now. It's our society that is sick - addicted to the drugs of dependence, the easy-way-out, short term thinking, lack of accountability - and no spiritual core to keep us strong.
You can buy drugs at Walgreens that are just as bad as long as you have permission from a doctor.Just as bad? You do realize that certain drugs are legally prescribed because of their potentially good effects, don't you?
I don't think you should legalize deadly drugs. I don't see anything wrong with responsible people using recreational drugs.
The biggest thing that I think should be done, is to examine why our society has so many people willing to risk their health or their life just to get high. If we can "fix" what is wrong in our society, then I don't think we would see the drug problem we're seeing now. It's our society that is sick - addicted to the drugs of dependence, the easy-way-out, short term thinking, lack of accountability - and no spiritual core to keep us strong.
You jump to conclusions. Personally, I have never said anything about legalizing any substance. I have always maintained substances should be decriminalized, and abuse handled by medical professionals—not the criminal justice system. Also, I don't think anyone wants to see heroin sold in Walgreens, except maybe the addict.
Taking and selling are different. Hydrocodone is heroin in pill form.
Rush=Taking without prescription, mandatory rehab & public service.
Teenager=Taking and selling, rehab for taking, prison for selling.
To return to the subject of this thread.......
No it is not derived from heroin, its a derivative of codeine. The stuff they put in cough syrup.
Nice shoehorn in of a Rush slam though.
So my point is, why do we as a society arrest and incarcerate those who choose different toxicants, some that are arguably safer than the darling intoxicant? I think the answer is ignorance and politics. (Sorry for the redundancy)
So my point is, why do we as a society arrest and incarcerate those who choose different toxicants, some that are arguably safer than the darling intoxicant? I think the answer is ignorance and politics. (Sorry for the redundancy)
Gotta have a reason to keep the war on drugs going and pay for turning the police into a domestic military.
Gotta have a reason to keep the war on drugs going and pay for turning the police into a domestic military.For some reason, that comment, even though I can see the sarcasm, strikes me more as a conservative comment than a liberal one.
Gotta have a reason to keep the war on drugs going and pay for turning the police into a domestic military.
For some reason, that comment, even though I can see the sarcasm, strikes me more as a conservative comment than a liberal one.
Our young lad is growing up. But is still not sure he's ready to let go of youthful pride. He still craves peer acceptance. Pop cultural elitists have branded conservatives as racist, sexist and homophobes. So he is yet unwilling to take up the mantle. Give him time.
How did Churchill phrase it? If you are not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at forty you have no brain. Liberal_Spy is in transition. Why do you think he even bothered to enter our plainly conservative house? To change our minds? Or, acquire his?
He's playing everyone here like a banjo.
He's playing everyone here like a banjo.
Yep.
'Honest troll' is an oxymoron.
It was obvious on Day One what he was doing, and he's still doing it......
Yup. I tried putting Liberal_spy on ignore, but the ignore feature doesn't seem to work for me. :shrug:
I've never put anyone on ignore before. I don't think I'm doing it wrong--you just put in the name on the Ignore list, but it won't "take."
You can't "play" someone who already knows the tune.
You can't "play" someone who already knows the tune.
You can't "play" someone who already knows the tune.
I don't mind his comments as long as he is polite. He can learn much from us, he put himself in here, we should use it as an opportunity to be able to hone our ability to defend our idealogy to the other side. Who knows, we might even be able to "turn" him.
Idealist!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Weird. Got the case right? - it is case sensitive. If you type lib in the box and let it auto complete, that might work better.
I don't mind his comments as long as he is polite. He can learn much from us, he put himself in here, we should use it as an opportunity to be able to hone our ability to defend our idealogy to the other side. Who knows, we might even be able to "turn" him.
Yes, that's exactly what I did. :shrug:
He has already asked folks here to post reams of explanations of conservatism, and they have obliged. He doesn't budge an inch. He is a time waster.
On a complete and total side note - thank you for reminding me of Hildegarde! Been reading and Hypatia has competition now! :laugh:
I am going to agree and disagree, my friend. This applies to hard core addicts, not casual users.
It's a fairly open secret that I am an alcoholic. Different drug, same mechanism. Addiction isn't something that may be cured. Only controlled, and only if the sufferer wants to do so. Most, simply, do not. My friends at AA/NA say the same thing. The impulse is always there. Sometimes it sleeps for a while, but the bugger always wakes up again, usually at the worst possible time.
Now, should we criminalize drug users? I do not think so, unless they are an active danger to themselves and those around them. Will they consent to learn to control their addiction? Not until they are ready.
Casual users, the ones who can take it or leave it - who cares? Let them take the odd hit if it makes them feel better.
I don't mind his comments as long as he is polite. He can learn much from us, he put himself in here, we should use it as an opportunity to be able to hone our ability to defend our idealogy to the other side. Who knows, we might even be able to "turn" him.That is the attitude which is required, to change minds, change votes, and win.
Funny you say that. My mother, who had been an ex-smoker for nearly 20 years had very strong desires for a cigarette when my father passed away. Between the stress and the grief, a little voice in her head told her if she just smoked one, she could get through it easier. She didn't smoke, but still. Amazing how an addiction can come after you from so long ago, at a time when you are most vulnerable.
P.S my father died of lung cancer. Which makes it even stranger. The thing that caused her pain was now calling to her.
I believe I'm consistent, Cincinnatus.
Tobacco has always been legal in America. Alcohol has been, all but for a short time when what was legal suddenly became illegal.
Hard drugs have always been illegal because they are so harmful (the greater negative impact of alcohol and tobacco is due to greater use because they are legal). If we now legalize harmful drugs, their use will increase, and they will most likely create an even greater negative impact than alcohol and tobacco.
They're already having problems in Colorado with DUI violations regarding the use of marijuana.
Legalizing harder drugs is a very bad idea on any level, IMO.
Unless one wants a greater consumption of them and greater harm to the individuals who will use them because they have become legal.
Actually, marijuana and cocaine didn't become illegal in the US until the early 1900's. (less than 100 years ago) Along with opium and heroine being legal until regulated/illegal in the late 1800's early 1900's
I already conceded that I made an error, LambChop.
I should have said, in the last hundred years hard drugs have been illegal because they are so harmful.
I still believe that it is a consistent argument that alcohol and tobacco are different situations than hard drugs, and that drugs' remaining illegal is the best decision. Dealing drugs kills people. LOTS of people.
Lessening penalties (also already discussed) for using is a different matter, and on that I believe we are almost all in agreement.
I don't mind his comments as long as he is polite. He can learn much from us, he put himself in here, we should use it as an opportunity to be able to hone our ability to defend our idealogy to the other side. Who knows, we might even be able to "turn" him.
That is the attitude which is required, to change minds, change votes, and win.
(I personally changed from an idealistic 20 something liberal veteran, to a staunch Reagan conservative during my mid-late 20s) Exposed to life, and to men and women who argued the case effectively.
I do apologize, didn't see I had been parroting a response until after I did so. Was responding to your post before reading the thread in it's entirety.
Personally, I think some drugs should be legal and some shouldn't. Does the drug hurt anybody except the user? If the answer is no, then legalize it. Although I do think regulation as to when and where should be in place. We don't let people drink and drive with out punishment.
That's it truth seeker. I was pretty wild in my youth too. As my grandmother used to say, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar. I think he is trying to convince himself of his beliefs more so than trying to change our minds.