The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: mystery-ak on October 19, 2013, 11:31:39 pm
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/19/Obama-nurtures-his-faith-away-from-the-spotlight (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/19/Obama-nurtures-his-faith-away-from-the-spotlight)
from AP 19 Oct 2013, 6:26 AM PDT
(AP) Obama nurtures his faith away from the spotlight
By JOSH LEDERMAN
Associated Press
WASHINGTON
President Barack Obama is not an overtly religious man. He and his family rarely attend church, and he almost never elaborates in public about his own relationship to his Christian faith.
But away from the public eye, advisers say, the president has carefully nurtured a sense of spirituality that has served as a grounding mechanism during turbulent times, when the obstacles to governing a deeply divided nation seem nearly insurmountable.
Every year on Aug. 4, the president's birthday, Obama convenes a group of pastors by phone to receive their prayers for him for the year to come. During the most challenging of times, prayer circles are organized with prominent religious figures such as megachurch pastor Joel Hunter, Bishop Vashti McKenzie of the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the Rev. Joseph Lowery, a civil rights activist.
Each morning for the past five years, before most of his aides even arrive at the White House, Obama has read a devotional written for him and sent to his BlackBerry, weaving together Scripture with reflections from literary figures such as Maya Angelou and C.S. Lewis.
"I've certainly seen the president's faith grow in his time in office," said Joshua DuBois, an informal spiritual adviser to Obama who writes the devotionals and ran Obama's faith-based office until earlier this year. "When you cultivate your faith, it grows."
Obama is particularly moved by theories that draw connections between biblical themes and the personal journeys of historical figures such as Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr., DuBois said.
He added that the president's spiritual strength is his belief that God will carry him through to see another day even in times of crisis.
"Because of these grounding aspects of his life, he doesn't let the day-to-day challenges really shake him," said DuBois, a former associate pastor at a Pentecostal church.
The image of Obama as someone who draws heavily on faith to guide his daily life contrasts with his public persona.
An intensely private person, Obama has shied away from all but the most general descriptions of his spiritual life.
Obama had to distance himself from his longtime pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, when his anti-American rantings threatened Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.
Persistent and false claims that Obama is secretly a Muslim have followed him even into his second term.
"Sometimes I search Scripture to determine how best to balance life as a president and as a husband and as a father," Obama said in February at the National Prayer Breakfast. "I often search for Scripture to figure out how I can be a better man as well as a better president."
The best clues to which texts fortify Obama's spiritual consumption may come from the daily devotionals that DuBois started sending Obama, then a U.S. senator from Illinois, in 2008.
DuBois ran religious outreach for Obama's presidential campaign that year, and his digital benedictions for Obama have been compiled in a forthcoming book, "The President's Devotional."
"A snippet of Scripture for me to reflect on," Obama has said. "And it has meant the world to me."
At pivotal moments in Obama's presidency, DuBois sometimes selects texts that offer lessons appropriate to the challenges at hand.
Before one State of the Union address, it was the words of Isaiah, in an appeal for clarity of speech: "So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth, it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose."
Others are intended as an oasis from the conflicts Obama confronts on any given day.
"We are hard-pressed on every side, but not crushed. Perplexed, but not in despair," reads a verse from 2 Corinthians that DuBois sent Obama one November, followed with his own meditation: "Dear God, give us a resilient spirit, a spirit that returns to face this day even in the shadow of yesterday's challenges. Help us, today, to bounce back."
In his final years in office, Obama plans to continue with the morning meditations, the birthday call with pastors and ad hoc prayer circles, said a senior administration official, who wasn't authorized to comment by name on Obama's spiritual life and requested anonymity.
In times of crisis, from hurricanes to school shootings, many Americans look to their president as a source of strength and comfort.
"This office tends to make a person pray more," Obama said last year in an interview with Cathedral Age magazine. "And as President Lincoln once said, `I have been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had no place else to go.'"
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Every year on Aug. 4, the president's birthday, Obama convenes a group of pastors by phone to receive their prayers for him for the year to come. During the most challenging of times, prayer circles are organized with prominent religious figures such as megachurch pastor Joel Hunter, Bishop Vashti McKenzie of the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the Rev. Joseph Lowery, a civil rights activist.
He makes a bunch of pastors call him on his birthday to pray for him?
Does the AP know how insulting that is to most Christians? He never goes to church, never talks about God, yet he has vanity prayers directed at him on the day he was born? :silly:
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Some still think he is the Messiah. The closest he comes to religion is a cult, both Islam and himself.
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(http://www.barfboutique.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/classic-white-barf-bag-20.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0)
Classic White Barf Bags
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He makes a bunch of pastors call him on his birthday to pray for him?
Does the AP know how insulting that is to most Christians? He never goes to church, never talks about God, yet he has vanity prayers directed at him on the day he was born? :silly:
Nope! They haven't a clue!
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Classic White Barf Bags
Thanks for the barf bag, mystery.
I'm suddenly nauseated............
But I will remind all my brothers and sisters in Christ..
God is not mocked.
This charade of faux Christianity will not stand.
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Thanks for the barf bag, mystery.
I'm suddenly nauseated............
But I will remind all my brothers and sisters in Christ..
God is not mocked.
This charade of faux Christianity will not stand.
:thumbsup:
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[[ AP: Barack Obama, Man of Deep Christian Faith ]]
AP: News agency up to its ears in lying and B.S.
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To Josh Lederman, Associated Press:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/10371412876_d6fb0dc0bb_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/105575503@N07/10371412876/)
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I don't think Obama is a Christian, but I also don't think he is a Muslim.
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To Josh Lederman, Associated Press:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/10371412876_d6fb0dc0bb_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/105575503@N07/10371412876/)
Another way to put it.......... :beer:
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Anyone that can condone the ripping out of a baby from it's mother's womb is not a Christian no matter how loud they profess it...
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Anyone that can condone the ripping out of a baby from it's mother's womb is not a Christian no matter how loud they profess it...
:amen:
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I don't think Obama is a Christian, but I also don't think he is a Muslim.
I think he is agnostic.
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I think he is agnostic.
He's as Muslim as it is possible to be.
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He's as Muslim as it is possible to be.
In an interview with Nicolas Kristoff - before he became President - he stated the most wonderful sound in all the world is the Islamic Call to Prayer. He attended a Muslim school in Indonesia and - according to his instructors in the school - was more interested in the study of Islam than the Catholic religion (he was reportedly enrolled as a Catholic student). His American grandfather and Frank Marshall Davis were both Communists. The truth lies somewhere in between.
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He is not a Christian and anyone who says he is has no idea what a Christian is. He was raised Muslim and I doubt he has ever broken from that cult they rarely do. If you go by actions he is a want to be Muslim but is gay. Muslims may kill gays supposedly and be against them but many male Muslims seem to like young boys and are not taken to task about that. I don't think he practices any faith but his actions lean a bit towards his Muslim upbringing. Christians may pray for him and he can ask us to too. We can pray for anyone but only God can choose to wake a person who is friends with the devil and lead him to salvation so far he hasn't but who knows maybe someday Obama will realize the error of his ways and God will lead him to ask for forgiveness but I am not holding my breath.
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Obama, McCain, Reid, Pelosi, all the Liberals in Congress are persecuting and attempting to shut down any semblance of Christianity in America, and, they support the people in Syria, Paaa-kee-stan, Libya, Egypt, well basically all over the M.E. who are kidnapping, abusing, and massacring Christians every day.
America, under Obama, has become an openly anti-Christian pro-Islam nation. Anyone who believes these people are true Christians is a fool. Their Gods are power and money, nothing more. Religion is laughable to them and is just 'in thier way' of full control of the populace.
Whoever wrote this piece, if they really believe it, is a brainwashed idiot.
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He was raised Muslim and I doubt he has ever broken from that cult they rarely do.
It is also not permissible in islam to leave and go to another religion. If a person does, they are subject to an "untimely" demise from Islamic "fundamentalists." :2gunz:
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In an interview with Nicolas Kristoff - before he became President - he stated the most wonderful sound in all the world is the Islamic Call to Prayer. He attended a Muslim school in Indonesia and - according to his instructors in the school - was more interested in the study of Islam than the Catholic religion (he was reportedly enrolled as a Catholic student). His American grandfather and Frank Marshall Davis were both Communists. The truth lies somewhere in between.
I think he's an atheist/Communist with strong sympathies to Islam and hatred of Christianity.
I believe that we, as Conservative Christians, are, in his confused, angry mind and soul, his greatest enemies.
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Well.....I got as far as "Associated Press". :laugh:
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I don't think Obama is a Christian, but I also don't think he is a Muslim.
He's Muslim. A Reptilian Muslim.
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I'll not judge a person's religion. Unlike God, I can't see hearts, just actions.
Having said that - I am gonna judge. It is Sunday, and I'll confess it later ..... :laugh:
Looking at his actions, I see very little of the Holy Spirit in evidence. A guy who treats war as a video game and who holds an entire country to ransom to satisfy his own ego really needs to grow the EFF up and listen to the word.
Now I agree with him on one thing - the call to prayer is a hauntingly beautiful sound, and something I wish we had. I found it beneficial to be reminded to give thanks for my life, my loves and my advantages 5 times a day.
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I'll not judge a person's religion. Unlike God, I can't see hearts, just actions.
Having said that - I am gonna judge. It is Sunday, and I'll confess it later ..... :laugh:
Looking at his actions, I see very little of the Holy Spirit in evidence. A guy who treats war as a video game and who holds an entire country to ransom to satisfy his own ego really needs to grow the EFF up and listen to the word.
Now I agree with him on one thing - the call to prayer is a hauntingly beautiful sound, and something I wish we had. I found it beneficial to be reminded to give thanks for my life, my loves and my advantages 5 times a day.
I love listening to Gregorian chants for that very reason.
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I love listening to Gregorian chants for that very reason.
Same. Peace and joy at the same time. Got a fair collection of them :)
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Same. Peace and joy at the same time. Got a fair collection of them :)
I have a Gregorian Chant channel on Pandora. I find music to be a very important conduit for me spiritually.
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I have a Gregorian Chant channel on Pandora. I find music to be a very important conduit for me spiritually.
I wonder if spotify has it.
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Now I agree with him on one thing - the call to prayer is a hauntingly beautiful sound, and something I wish we had. I found it beneficial to be reminded to give thanks for my life, my loves and my advantages 5 times a day.
Christians have always had a 'call to prayer'. It was the Church Bells. The Leftists banned Church bells while simultaneously suing for the Muslims to be able to blast their caterwauling all over the city.
Liberals either are too stupid to understand what hypocrisy is, or they simply refuse to acknowledge it. Either way, the Left is 100% in support of everything Islamic, while seeking to suppress and eradicate any form of Christian worship.
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Liberals either are too stupid to understand what hypocrisy is, or they simply refuse to acknowledge it. Either way, the Left is 100% in support of everything Islamic, while seeking to suppress and eradicate any form of Christian worship.
And that very godless "left" is the first group that will be culled if the Muslims gain political power over a people. :shrug:
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I love listening to Gregorian chants for that very reason.
And Gregorian chant never drove me to violent behavior in order to spread its theology.
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I wonder if spotify has it.
Check and see. I was surprised Pandora had it.
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And Gregorian chant never drove me to violent behavior in order to spread its theology.
True that!
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He's Muslim. A Reptilian Muslim.
Peas Be Upon him.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ubvYqOh1M
An hour and a quarter of beauty and joy.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ubvYqOh1M
An hour and a quarter of beauty and joy.
Thanks EC. I'll listen to this today.
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In the times of the Early Church, the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) was celebrated across Christendom, when during the daylight (working) hours, bells rung across every village and township in a time of remembrance and gratitude. The hours are:
Matins (during the night, at midnight with some); also called Vigils or Nocturns or, in monastic usage, the Night Office
Lauds or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
Prime or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
Sext or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 noon)
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
Vespers or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
Compline or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)
The Daily Office (Liturgies) can be found at http://universalis.com/ (http://universalis.com/)
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Their title and their first line don't match.
In reality, the media doesn't understand what real faith is.
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Their title and their first line don't match.
In reality, the media doesn't understand what real faith is.
Only because they don't have it.
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Only because they don't have it.
Exactly. They put their faith in government and man.
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Exactly. They put their faith in government and man.
I can put my faith in my fellow man. Most people are decent. Hard working, want to be left alone to raise their kids, make a living and make a difference. Seen enough of that to not discount it as a powerful force for life.
Government, on the other hand .....
If they are not screwing things up through malice, they are doing it through sheer incompetence.
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Their title and their first line don't match.
In reality, the media doesn't understand what real faith is.
BINGO!!!
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I can put my faith in my fellow man. Most people are decent. Hard working, want to be left alone to raise their kids, make a living and make a difference. Seen enough of that to not discount it as a powerful force for life.
Government, on the other hand .....
If they are not screwing things up through malice, they are doing it through sheer incompetence.
Don't think I'd say most are decent anymore, some maybe. Look at what is suggested to be cut to reduce government, everyone elses but mine!
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BINGO!!!
^-^
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Don't think I'd say most are decent anymore, some maybe. Look at what is suggested to be cut to reduce government, everyone elses but mine!
You get no disagreement from me on that. At all. Ever. If I do, slap me until I come to me senses. :laugh:
Yet people - individually - are decent in my (fairly narrow) experience. I have seen and heard of people do amazing things, simply because it is the right thing to do and at the risk of their own lives.
It may be a shitty world, but as long as there are people who care, it isn't lost.
Or maybe I am just an old fool.
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I love listening to Gregorian chants for that very reason.
I teach about Gregorian chant, and actually refer to the fact that people will listen to chant to bring peace in a very confusing and hectic world.
It's something that students have never even thought about.
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You get no disagreement from me on that. At all. Ever. If I do, slap me until I come to me senses. :laugh:
Yet people - individually - are decent in my (fairly narrow) experience. I have seen and heard of people do amazing things, simply because it is the right thing to do and at the risk of their own lives.
It may be a shitty world, but as long as there are people who care, it isn't lost.
Or maybe I am just an old fool.
Won't slap you but I may do an "told you so". LOL
I am still pleasantly surprised by the actions of some of the younger generation with their volunteerism and sacrifice. Which in itself, instills the possibility of some hope for this world. I tend to expect it out of the older bunch and that is where I continue to be severely disappointed.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ubvYqOh1M
An hour and a quarter of beauty and joy.
This is beautiful. Thank you for posting.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Praise He who inspired the writers, who gave the singers their voices and who supported those who created the systems that allowed it to be shared. He is pretty damned neat and rather impressive :beer:
I just found it :laugh:
Love it though.
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I teach about Gregorian chant, and actually refer to the fact that people will listen to chant to bring peace in a very confusing and hectic world.
It's something that students have never even thought about.
It really works, and you don't have to get a prescription for it.
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It really works, and you don't have to get a prescription for it.
...not yet anyway!
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It really works, and you don't have to get a prescription for it.
One time, in speech class, a guy told each of us to write down our feelings and mood in simple words. He then shut the lights off, and played different sounds, such as music, waves breaking, and rainfall. At the end of the sounds, which lasted about 20 minutes, he turned the lights back on, and had us write down words about how we felt. All but one in the class felt better, and more relaxed. I always knew this, but never experienced it in such a way.
That year, I bought gifts of small fountains for my sisters. One sister said she couldn't sleep without listening to her waterfall.
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It really works, and you don't have to get a prescription for it.
:laugh:
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One time, in speech class, a guy told each of us to write down our feelings and mood in simple words. He then shut the lights off, and played different sounds, such as music, waves breaking, and rainfall. At the end of the sounds, which lasted about 20 minutes, he turned the lights back on, and had us write down words about how we felt. All but one in the class felt better, and more relaxed. I always knew this, but never experienced it in such a way.
That year, I bought gifts of small fountains for my sisters. One sister said she couldn't sleep without listening to her waterfall.
I found a little noise machine at Walmart that you could set for different times and sounds - my favorite was the sound of a running stream. Put me right to sleep!
I never thought of putting an actual small fountain by my bed, that would be very nice..
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...not yet anyway!
They'll probably be banned someday.
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I have a sound machine. Favorite is the sound of thunder and rain. Another is called "seashore"....the sound of the waves hitting the sand or rocks.
Then there's "rainforest"....the aviary sounds and rain hitting the canopy leaves.
Think I'll go and take a nap.... :laugh:
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I teach about Gregorian chant, and actually refer to the fact that people will listen to chant to bring peace in a very confusing and hectic world.
It's something that students have never even thought about.
I was thinking that as I was listening. it would be good for meditation I think. At least for me.
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I found a little noise machine at Walmart that you could set for different times and sounds - my favorite was the sound of a running stream. Put me right to sleep!
I never thought of putting an actual small fountain by my bed, that would be very nice..
I got those fountains for under $10. A couple were only $6 at General Dollar at Christmas time.
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I was thinking that as I was listening. it would be good for meditation I think. At least for me.
It really is.
I play Gregorian chants when I pray (assuming I can and never at sunrise, that is both silent and sacred). Never had the words to describe it - my sister does. She says it is like being a guitar and tuned down an octave.
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"...my individual salvation is not going to come about without a collective salvation for the country..." - Barack Obama
“One of their beliefs which is antithetical to traditional Christianity is collective salvation. Sin is not individual, but collective and it cannot be overcome by religious conversion. According to liberation theologies, God does not save men. Man saves himself through a political process of absolute social justice. This is not in Christian doctrine, but it is Marxist.” - http://web.archive.org/web/20080612182721/http://www.180people.com/2008/June/CollectivismBarack-Obamas-BeliefsCommunism-Marxism-Fascism.htm
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Many people and groups call themselves 'Jewish' even though they are and do absolutely nothing related to Judaism. Many people call themselves 'Christian' who have nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. These people define their own terms of what Judaism or Christianity is to them, regardless of doctrine, theology, or tradition. In essence, they create their own version of a religion and then apply a recognizable name to it, even if their version of 'observance' is completely out of sync with what they claim to be.
This is a long winded way of saying that Obama's claim of Christianity is meaningless. Worse than meaningless, it is cynical and insulting in that he is making his claim with the intent of fraud. No Christian I have ever met would demand the cross and the symbol of Jesus be covered before speaking. Obama is as much a 'Christian' as I, my family, and all my relatives are Muslims.
CNSNews.com) - Georgetown University says it covered over the monogram “IHS”--symbolizing the name of Jesus Christ—because it was inscribed on a pediment on the stage where President Obama spoke at the university on Tuesday and the White House had asked Georgetown to cover up all signs and symbols there.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/georgetown-says-it-covered-over-name-jesus-comply-white-house-request-0
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Obama's claim of Christianity is meaningless.
That's it in a nutshell.
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I got those fountains for under $10. A couple were only $6 at General Dollar at Christmas time.
Seriously? I LOVE the sound of water--I am fortunate to have lovely ponds out back of my townhouse with waterfalls. I love that sound. I think about indoor ones, but I have cats, ya know?
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"...my individual salvation is not going to come about without a collective salvation for the country..." - Barack Obama
“One of their beliefs which is antithetical to traditional Christianity is collective salvation. Sin is not individual, but collective and it cannot be overcome by religious conversion. According to liberation theologies, God does not save men. Man saves himself through a political process of absolute social justice. This is not in Christian doctrine, but it is Marxist.” - http://web.archive.org/web/20080612182721/http://www.180people.com/2008/June/CollectivismBarack-Obamas-BeliefsCommunism-Marxism-Fascism.htm
Barack Hussein Obama is NOT a Christian, never has been one, and if the quote you posted above doesn't prove that I don't know what it will take!
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I don't know anything about this site or the writer of the article (someone sent me the link in an e-mail) but admit that having long thought the same thing the article alleges!
http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2012/12/12/u-s-physicist-tom-fife-obama-was-groomed-to-be-president-by-soviet-communists/
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Seriously? I LOVE the sound of water--I am fortunate to have lovely ponds out back of my townhouse with waterfalls. I love that sound. I think about indoor ones, but I have cats, ya know?
I have one of the wall-mounted waterfalls in my bedroom. We got where we couldn't sleep without it.
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I don't know anything about this site or the writer of the article (someone sent me the link in an e-mail) but admit that having long thought the same thing the article alleges!
http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2012/12/12/u-s-physicist-tom-fife-obama-was-groomed-to-be-president-by-soviet-communists/
I remember a detailed article similar to this from 2008. Went into a lot of detail on how they accomplished this. It seemed far-fetched -- THEN. Not so much now, especially knowing about his grandfather and Frank Marshall Davis.
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EC wrote:
[[ I'll not judge a person's religion... ]]
You'd better start.
Because others are certainly "judging" you.
Especially over there in the UK.
The time is running out.
It was once said,
"You may not be interested in war. But war is interested in you."
I say:
"You may not be interested in islam. But islam is interested in YOU."
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EC wrote:
[[ I'll not judge a person's religion... ]]
You'd better start.
Because they are certainly "judging" you.
Especially over there in the UK.
The time is running out.
It was once said,
"You may not be interested in war. But war is interested in you."
I say:
"You may not be interested in islam. But islam is interested in YOU."
Nope. I will not judge,
Someone wishing to harm me or mine - I would suggest they change their ideas fast, the river is literally 5 minutes drive from here.
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The Music of Hildegard von Bingen. A German mystic and abbess and composer of monophonic settings of lyric and dramatic poetry, Hildegard von Bingen was born in 1098. Sickly from birth, Hildegard explains that from a very young age she had experienced visions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMBrSf3dl9A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMBrSf3dl9A)
Modern arrangement as used in the film American Perfekt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avABG8hrnRE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avABG8hrnRE)
Edit: I replaced the second video with different one that is visually stunning. Check it out if you already clicked the first video
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aligncare, do you know that, as the 10th child in her family, Hildegarde was "tithed" to the Church, and raised in a convent?
Because of that, she was educated, and her brilliance was allowed to flourish (in an era when most women were illiterate).
She was a philosopher, theologian, scientist, among other things, not the least of which was that she was the most prolific composer of the Middle Ages.
An AMAZING woman!
(Whom I just happened to have as the subject of a lecture last week. ^-^ )
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We are fortunate indeed to have folks with such breadth of knowledge posting at TBR.
I'm glad you expanded her biography, musiclady. What a fascinating woman. Now I want to know even more about her. Interestingly, I had never heard of her until I saw the movie "American Perfekt" which used the updated arrangement in the film. It grabbed my attention so I started researching and found I enjoyed von Bingen's work immensely.
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We are fortunate indeed to have folks with such breadth of knowledge posting at TBR.
I'm glad you expanded her biography, musiclady. What a fascinating woman. Now I want to know even more about her. Interestingly, I had never heard of her until I saw the movie "American Perfekt" which used the updated arrangement in the film. It grabbed my attention so I started researching and found I enjoyed von Bingen's work immensely.
:amen: :amen: and :amen:
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We are fortunate indeed to have folks with such breadth of knowledge posting at TBR.
I'm glad you expanded her biography, musiclady. What a fascinating woman. Now I want to know even more about her. Interestingly, I had never heard of her until I saw the movie "American Perfekt" which used the updated arrangement in the film. It grabbed my attention so I started researching and found I enjoyed von Bingen's work immensely.
She wrote treatises on theology, and her writings include physics, botany, medicine and physiology, and she indeed was a mystic.
She was also very creative in her chant-writing, expanding the range and melodic essence of what had previously been more limited.
I think she's one of history's most fascinating people, and I'm glad people are still getting the word out!
And am thankful for the fact that she had the chance that few women had a thousand years ago, to develop her incredible mind.............and soul!