The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: mystery-ak on May 27, 2015, 01:47:19 pm
-
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/rand-paul-blames-gop-hawks-for-isil-rise-118315.html?hp=l2_4 (http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/rand-paul-blames-gop-hawks-for-isil-rise-118315.html?hp=l2_4)
Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
By Nick Gass
5/27/15 7:59 AM EDT
Rand Paul says the Islamic State exists and increased in strength because of the hawkish wing of the Republican Party that provided weapons to the region “indiscriminately.”
The Kentucky senator and Republican presidential candidate blasted members of his own party like South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham for arguing that the terrorist group exists because of people like him.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/rand-paul-blames-gop-hawks-for-isil-rise-118315.html#ixzz3bLY0PK55
-
It's the gun's fault.
-
It does seem that we are arming the wrong people. Intentionally? I could see where people might think that. You would think the hawks would see that - it makes me wonder what their intentions really are. On this, I think I agree with Rand Paul.
-
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention: if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone. They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.
And to think I once backed this fool.
-
it makes me wonder what their intentions really are.
$$$
-
$$$
The mother's milk of politics.
-
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.
It's the Reublicans.
Right...
-
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.
It's the Reublicans.
Right...
How potent do you think ISIS would be without the military equipment they use?
-
How potent do you think ISIS would be without the military equipment they use?
How potent would ISIS be if we had left a residual force of 10,000 troops behind?
They'd be a ratty little bunch of Islamists, sniping and trying to get noticed.
Rand Paul would have done exactly what Obama did: pull all the troops from Iraq. He is NOT what this country needs right now and, frankly, never will be.
-
How potent would ISIS be if we had left a residual force of 10,000 troops behind?
They'd be a ratty little bunch of Islamists, sniping and trying to get noticed.
Rand Paul would have done exactly what Obama did: pull all the troops from Iraq. He is NOT what this country needs right now and, frankly, never will be.
Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.
-
Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.
It's not just about invading the US. It's about a powerful Islamic force in the Middle East that threatens American interests. If we do nothing about ISIS, we send a message to all the ally nations that we're willing to let them hang. If we're no longer an ally, what do they do then?
I will not vote for a man whose heritage is one of appeasement and isolationism. That's Ron Paul, and, without a doubt, his son, too.
-
It's not just about invading the US. It's about a powerful Islamic force in the Middle East that threatens American interests. If we do nothing about ISIS, we send a message to all the ally nations that we're willing to let them hang. If we're no longer an ally, what do they do then?
I will not vote for a man whose heritage is one of appeasement and isolationism. That's Ron Paul, and, without a doubt, his son, too.
Are you talking about Israel? I think you're sorely mistaken if you think ISIS would stand a chance in hell against Israel. They have the most advanced military in the region; we get some of OUR military tech from them. Nobody is stupid enough to openly engage Israel, and even if they were that stupid we would immediately help them. Our assistance is not necessary. We need to leave the Middle East and work on improving our own country.
-
Are you talking about Israel? I think you're sorely mistaken if you think ISIS would stand a chance in hell against Israel. They have the most advanced military in the region; we get some of OUR military tech from them. Nobody is stupid enough to openly engage Israel, and even if they were that stupid we would immediately help them. Our assistance is not necessary. We need to leave the Middle East and work on improving our own country.
I think you're naive, my friend. Let's just leave it at that.
-
This crap started when McCain was taking group photos with Syrian "freedom fighters"....which no doubt were ISIS acolytes.
It was shortly after Assad was accused of using chemical weapons against his own people.
WTF kind of war or months' long military action have you ever seen where there is a COMPLETE American news blackout?
It's great to be a democrat..... :whistle:
-
On the whole we've no idea what we're doing in the Middle East. It really doesn't matter how we got to this point, but that's where we are.
It's time for the Middle East nations to step up and form a coalition of the willing against ISIS.
The majority of Americans have no stomach to spill more American blood on that sand trap (myself included) so let's arm our "allies" (including all those fighting ISIS) offer intelligence as we deem helpful, and get the he!! out of the way.
-
Paul's daddy is coming through too much.
ISIS has been around a long time, their roots are in the Islamic Baath Party of Syria who attempted to overthrow them in the 50s.
If anything threw fuel on the fire, it was the promotion of the Arab Spring.
-
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention: if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone. They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.
And to think I once backed this fool.
I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...
-
I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...
I was thinking the same thing.
Some people said we should leave the Nazis alone too.......
-
I was thinking the same thing.
Some people said we should leave the Nazis alone too.......
Also just give Japan the oil and steel.. They would have left us alone right ;)
-
I guess we haven't learned our lessons about our Isolationism in the 1930's...
Exactly.
Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?
If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.
-
Exactly.
Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?
If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.
Exactly..
The oceans can no longer protect us.....
-
Exactly.
Should we not concern ourselves with crime in our cities and townships and instead just secure our homes?
If you do that, sooner or later you'll find yourself barricaded behind your own walls trying by yourself to fight off the barbarians at your gate, wishing you'd beaten them before they surrounded you.
And that, in a nutshell is the problem with Libertarian national defense policy. Rather than maintaining a healthy skepticism toward international involvement, it pretends instead that America has no legitimate interests beyond our borders worthy of military defense.
The primary purpose and most legitimate role of a national government is to protect its citizens against violent force, especially when it is initiated from beyond one's borders. Else, how is liberty possible?
America did not "create" ISIS by unnecessarily involving itself in the internal affairs of other nations, even if sometimes in history, we have done just that.
ISIS was created by radical Islamists who prevailed upon those we liberated from local tyrants we might have chosen to leave alone, and then cruelly abandoned them to far more dangerous transnational forces who will not ever leave us alone.
-
And that, in a nutshell is the problem with Libertarian national defense policy. Rather than maintaining a healthy skepticism toward international involvement, it pretends instead that America has no legitimate interests beyond our borders worthy of military defense.
The primary purpose and most legitimate role of a national government is to protect its citizens against violent force, especially when it is initiated from beyond one's borders. Else, how is liberty possible?
America did not "create" ISIS by unnecessarily involving itself in the internal affairs of other nations, even if sometimes in history, we have done just that.
ISIS was created by radical Islamists who prevailed upon those we liberated from local tyrants we might have chosen to leave alone, and then cruelly abandoned them to far more dangerous transnational forces who will not ever leave us alone.
Also don't forget about the Pat Buchanan crowd as well..
Here is how we could have stopped ISIS from the beginning:
1. Left US Troops in Iraq
2. Don't say there is a red line and don't do and damn thing about said person crossing the red line
3. Since Libya is falling apart, we should have kept Gadafi in power. He was helping us,
Personally I think the Arab spring caused the mess more than the Invasion of Iraq..
-
Rand Paul is moving more and more toward his dad's position on foreign intervention: if they're not on our shores attacking us, leave 'em alone. They'll mind their own business and just confine themselves to the Middle East.
And to think I once backed this fool.
Agreed, he is taking himself out of consideration by me. I remember Harry Browne, 2004 Libertarian candidate for President, who blamed the US for 9/11/2001.
Now Rand Paul blaming his own party for ISIS.
-
Between this issue and the Patriot Act, I think Rand Paul is doing a very good job differentiating himself from the rest of the Republican field. I believe there are far more freedom-loving, war-weary and war-wary Republicans out there than Karl Rove, John McCain and Lindsey Graham would care to admit. In response to those who are attacking Paul for stating the obvious, I have a simple question:
Has the neocon approach to the Middle East worked?
-
Between this issue and the Patriot Act, I think Rand Paul is doing a very good job differentiating himself from the rest of the Republican field. I believe there are far more freedom-loving, war-weary and war-wary Republicans out there than Karl Rove, John McCain and Lindsey Graham would care to admit. In response to those who are attacking Paul for stating the obvious, I have a simple question:
Has the neocon approach to the Middle East worked?
Nothing has worked very well and nothing will work until we decide to start working on the disease rather than halfheartedly treating symptoms as we have been doing.
-
Nothing has worked very well and nothing will work until we decide to start working on the disease rather than halfheartedly treating symptoms as we have been doing.
How do we work on the disease?
-
How do we work on the disease?
As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!
-
As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!
You believe that will end extremism in the Middle East?
-
You believe that will end extremism in the Middle East?
Not entirely but it will take it down to levels so much lower than what we are currently seeing that it will hardly be noticeable.
-
Not entirely but it will take it down to levels so much lower than what we are currently seeing that it will hardly be noticeable.
I think you're completely wrong.
-
I think you're completely wrong.
You can think whatever the hell you like!
-
As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!
How do we remove those mullahs?
-
Fiorina then outlined her ISIS strategy, saying, “I would do very specific things. First, instead of having a Camp David conference to talk our Arab allies into a bad deal with Iran, I would have had a Camp David conference to talk with our Arab allies about how we can support them to fight ISIS. Let me give you very specific examples. The Kurds have been asking us to arm them for three years, we still have not. The Jordanians have been asking us to provide them with bombs and materiel. We know King Abdullah of Jordan, I’ve known him for many years. He took the appropriate leadership steps when a Jordanian pilot was burned alive. He was here in this country asking us for bombs and materiel, we haven’t provided him with any of them. He’s now looking to China for that. The Egyptian president, a very brave and pious Muslim, who has said there is a cancer in the heart of Islam, has asked us to share intelligence. We are not. The Turks have asked us to help them topple Bashar al-Assad, we are not. There are a whole set of things that we’ve been asked to do by our allies who know this is their fight, and we’re not doing any of them.”
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/05/27/fiorina-titles-are-just-titles-hillarys-track-record-is-me-collapse-and-the-russian-reset/
-
Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.
Despite all our guns, armed Americans couldn't stop 19 muslims, armed with box-cutters, from killing 3,000 people and causing $billions in damage...in just a few hours. After that President Bush did a excellent job of taking the war to the terrorist and we were safe. I felt safer. But the Kenyan President couldn't stop two muslims in Boston from buying pressure cooker pots and forever tarnishing an American tradition. Even with the most powerful military force the world has ever seen our own soldiers stationed in freaking Fort Hood Texas could not prevent a muslim from killing 19 others.
I couldn't write "completely irrational fear" about homeland terrorism without irony. What "media" is polluting our minds with fear and propaganda? ...it seems to me, that most the media agree with you that homeland security, and terrorism is a non-story(except when a Republican is bashing his own party.)
I'm getting tired of defending Senator Paul because he needs to stand out from the crowd. That crowd is attractive to much of the GOP base. Maybe standing out is standing apart.
-
How do we remove those mullahs?
Bullets are pretty cheap. Not terribly ethical, and Israel would get blamed, but it is doable.
-
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.
It's the Reublicans.
Right...
I think Rand may have cost himself the nomination with this little exchange on MSNBC.
It will be interesting to see how he tries to back it down. He wants to win, and he has to understand that the vast majority of Republican primary voters don't blame Republicans for ISIS.
It's factually inaccurate, and stupid politically for him to do so.
-
How do we remove those mullahs?
With just a little help from us we wont have to remove them! The Iranian people will do it for us!
-
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/05/27/fiorina-titles-are-just-titles-hillarys-track-record-is-me-collapse-and-the-russian-reset/
She's espousing a LOT better plan than I've seen anywhere else to date. I'm sure she would heed advice to do the rest of what's necessary as well.
-
She's espousing a LOT better plan than I've seen anywhere else to date. I'm sure she would heed advice to do the rest of what's necessary as well.
Since ISIS and Iran are enemies, what is our vested interest in killing them off? Why not secure and protect our allies Kurdistan, Jordan and the rest from attack and so make softer the other targets ISIS seeks such as Assad and the mullahs? We can always take ISIS out later.
If people are thinking ISIS is a greater threat to US security than Iranian nuclear weapons then they are seriously delusional, and drinking Rupert's Fox News Kool Aid.
-
With just a little help from us we wont have to remove them! The Iranian people will do it for us!
It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979.
When the Shah's government fell, this external role by the CIA contributed to resentment of the US, which continues until today. Not everybody, but very significant.
If the Iranians are to get a better government, the US had best not be viewed as manipulating, conspiring, facilitating the transition in a major way.
Overall there is NOT much evidence of fairly elected governments getting started and succeeding in muslim countries. Iran would kind of be an exception.
FYI outside Iran, the largest Iranian population is in greater Lost Angeles, California. Most do not talk about politics much. Something people inside Iran learn, whether during the Shah, or since.
-
Since ISIS and Iran are enemies, what is our vested interest in killing them off? Why not secure and protect our allies Kurdistan, Jordan and the rest from attack and so make softer the other targets ISIS seeks such as Assad and the mullahs? We can always take ISIS out later.
If people are thinking ISIS is a greater threat to US security than Iranian nuclear weapons then they are seriously delusional, and drinking Rupert's Fox News Kool Aid.
I watch Fox pretty regularly and don't believe I've ever heard, from any of the disparate voices on Fox, that ISIS is a greater threat than Iranian nuclear weapons.
Who is saying that?
Just for my own info.......
(And wondering if covering the fact that ISIS is slaughtering, raping and enslaving Christians makes an implication that ISIS is a 'greater' threat).
-
truth_seeker asks above:
[[ How do we remove those mullahs? ]]
How about with bombuhs ??
-
It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979.
When the Shah's government fell, this external role by the CIA contributed to resentment of the US, which continues until today. Not everybody, but very significant.
If the Iranians are to get a better government, the US had best not be viewed as manipulating, conspiring, facilitating the transition in a major way.
Overall there is NOT much evidence of fairly elected governments getting started and succeeding in muslim countries. Iran would kind of be an exception.
FYI outside Iran, the largest Iranian population is in greater Lost Angeles, California. Most do not talk about politics much. Something people inside Iran learn, whether during the Shah, or since.
Who do you imagine put the Shah in power in what was then called Persia?
-
mass asserts above:
[[ Since ISIS and Iran are enemies...]]
The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or so it is said).
Iran and isis may be opposing forces within islam, but they share a common "enemy" that both hate more than each other.
When it comes to destroying Israel and defeating the United States, watch isis and Iran join as partners...
-
Who do you imagine put the Shah in power in what was then called Persia?
I wrote:
"It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979."
-
I wrote:
"It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979."
Indeed you did! My apologies for my error.
And thirty years later - because the GREAT Jimmy Carter - rectified that and brought about, over time, what we have today. The Shah was an SOB but he was OUR SOB!
-
Indeed you did! My apologies for my error.
And thirty years later - because the GREAT Jimmy Carter - rectified that and brought about, over time, what we have today. The Shah was an SOB but he was OUR SOB!
The pragmatic truth in almost all the Mideast, and the muslim world, is it takes a firm, cruel authoritarian to govern those people.
Some people have worked to get them into democracy. GWB and the purple fingers.
Today in Iran the religious police enforce veils for women. I believe they have been known to bury people, stone people, etc.
Almost my entire adult life has exposed me to people from the religion, from several religions including islam. Very few risk being "political" or to speak freely once they get to the US.
Because there are people over here, that will send signals back home, to take steps against somebody's family.
So the safe thing is to keep quiet, thank your lucky stars you are in the US, I have seen it over, and over. I have asked people about it, and they just nod yes.
I have known Jews, Christians, muslims and Bahai from Iran; Christians from Egypt, Christians from Jordan, Christians from Syria, Jews and muslims from Israel, muslims from Oman, etc.
Generally they are guarded, not open. I think it is regional and cultural, as well as religious. Don't want to be publicly on the record, should the power change hands. Safe instead of sorry. They tend to not have uprisings to throw off bonds. Too risky.