The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: mystery-ak on March 24, 2017, 09:58:13 pm
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By ROBERT PEAR, GLENN THRUSH and THOMAS KAPLAN
March 24, 2017
WASHINGTON — House Republican leaders, facing a revolt among conservatives and moderates in their ranks, pulled legislation to repeal the Affordable Care Act from consideration on the House floor Friday afternoon in a significant defeat for President Trump on the first legislative showdown of his presidency.
House Speaker Paul D. Ryan conceded, “We’re going to be living with Obamacare for the foreseeable future.”
more
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/us/politics/health-care-affordable-care-act.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=http://m.facebook.com
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Shocked. Not.
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He never said he would repeal and replace health care, it was just something he read in the newspapers.
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The headline is dishonest. It wasn't a push to repeal Obamacare, it was a bill to tinker with it.
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The headline is dishonest. It wasn't a push to repeal Obamacare, it was a bill to tinker with it.
And that was the problem!
After 7 years of hearing "give us the power and we will repeal this day one" they didn't do it. They didn't have a plan that they could agree on and Ryan presented a bill that no one was allowed to amend except him. The Rats have to be excited they will gain seats in 2018 and maybe the POTUS in 2020.
I can't believe the Pubs threw away this once in a lifetime opportunity.
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And that was the problem!
After 7 years of hearing "give us the power and we will repeal this day one" they didn't do it. They didn't have a plan that they could agree on and Ryan presented a bill that no one was allowed to amend except him. The Rats have to be excited they will gain seats in 2018 and maybe the POTUS in 2020.
I can't believe the Pubs threw away this once in a lifetime opportunity.
The Republican Party has been so adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over the past decade, that I am well along to believing it is just a charade.
It has been the same limp attempts, lame excuses, and absence of Conservatism when it can count, that is almost perfection in its lack of efficacy for Conservative causes. No matter what resources at their disposal, there is always another excuse.
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The headline is dishonest. It wasn't a push to repeal Obamacare, it was a bill to tinker with it.
The headline is a flat out lie! Revise and rename - as this bill was - is a FAR cry from Repeal and replace!
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The Republican Party has been so adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over the past decade, that I am well along to believing it is just a charade.
It has been the same limp attempts, lame excuses, and absence of Conservatism when it can count, that is almost perfection in its lack of efficacy for Conservative causes. No matter what resources at their disposal, there is always another excuse.
ALL of the swamp critter love their swamp just as it is and no draining will be allowed! The letters behind their names are purely incidental.
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Best thing that could be done now is to quickly get a vote in the House on a straight-up repeal -- have the vote regardless of whether or not there are enough votes for it to pass. And regardless of what would happen to the bill in the Senate.
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Best thing that could be done now is to quickly get a vote in the House on a straight-up repeal -- have the vote regardless of whether or not there are enough votes for it to pass. And regardless of what would happen to the bill in the Senate.
THAT is exactly what should have been done in the first place IMHO! That is what they promised to do and they should have done exactly that! At the very least it would have put the nay Sayers of both parties and both houses directly in the cross hairs of the 2016 election! Which, BTW, is EXACTLY why they won't do that!
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THAT is exactly what should have been done in the first place IMHO! That is what they promised to do and they should have done exactly that! At the very least it would have put the nay Sayers of both parties and both houses directly in the cross hairs of the 2016 election!
I don't think there is a hope in hell that a straight repeal with no replacement would have actually passed both the House and Senate. But I think that reality needs to be demonstrated if there is going to be much hope of getting anything passed.
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I don't think there is a hope in hell that a straight repeal with no replacement would have actually passed both the House and Senate. But I think that reality needs to be demonstrated if there is going to be much hope of getting anything passed.
It has passed the house something like thirty times over the last 7 years and there are a hell of a lot of democrat senators in states handily won by Trump in the last election who want to keep their phony baloney jobs!
And 60 votes be damned if necessary! we are only talking about the long term survival of our current form of government here after all!
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I don't think there is a hope in hell that a straight repeal with no replacement would have actually passed both the House and Senate. But I think that reality needs to be demonstrated if there is going to be much hope of getting anything passed.
Considering the repeal of Obamacare has been a cornerstone of GOP campaigns, I;d just like to see who the liars are. What about the last bill they passed, knowing full well it would never be signed?
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Considering the repeal of Obamacare has been a cornerstone of GOP campaigns, I;d just like to see who the liars are. What about the last bill they passed, knowing full well it would never be signed?
Damned right! Get their sorry A$$ES on the record! Unmask them once and for all!
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Considering the repeal of Obamacare has been a cornerstone of GOP campaigns, I;d just like to see who the liars are.
There really aren't any liars. The moderates who oppose repeal without keeping some parts of Obamacare via replacement have been upfront about that since before the election. They'd vote for the repeal bill, but generally while also saying that they wanted to see some aspects of it kept. And it was an open secret that Republicans in Congress before the election could not get agreement on a replacement bill.
The supposed "unity" on just repealing ObamaCare and letting the chips fall where they may never existed. This debacle was just confirmation of what has generally been known by anyone looking at facts rather than just seeing what they want to see. Here is an article from June 2016.
GOP framework for Obamacare replacement is short on details
Seven months before President Barack Obama leaves the White House, congressional Republicans have little more than a white paper to show voters what they would do if given the chance to repeal the health care law that bears his name.
Speaker Paul Ryan on Wednesday will lay out the House’s plan to repeal and replace Obamacare in a paper designed to show voters the GOP isn’t just a party of no.
But the paper — which paints a conservative health policy agenda in broad strokes but doesn’t get into details like dollar amounts, who would be covered or how much financial help they might get — underscores the political and policy problems facing Republicans as they seek to unite around a plan to unravel a social safety net program that is already used by 20 million people.
Conservative factions have blasted plans deemed to provide too much coverage — such as Scott Walker’s prescription when he was running for president — as “Obamacare Lite.” At the other end of the spectrum, moderate Republicans have criticized plans that offer too little coverage as unsympathetic to people with expensive pre-existing illnesses.
“If you live in the Republican conference … I don’t think Jesus could get everyone to agree on everything,” said Rep. Phil Roe (R-Tenn.), a physician who has attended all of the task force meetings on the health plan.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/obamacare-house-republicans-224640
The only truly shocking thing is that so many people are shocked that they can't reach an agreement. That's been an open secret for a very long time, covered up by a lot of self-delusion that there existed this great consensus to just eliminate ObamaCare without doing anything else.
I'd prefer that result myself, but it's not going to happen. And if people think the midterms are going to be the chance to get a majority of conservatives in both the House and Senate willing to vote for a straight repeal...good luck. That ain't happening either.
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There really aren't any liars.
*****rollingeyes*****
Normally, Bill, I would read your post in its entirety. Not tonight.
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The headline is dishonest. It wasn't a push to repeal Obamacare, it was a bill to tinker with it.
As I mentioned on another thread, it seems all of the headlines are using that word.
My guess is it's to set up the narrative for the Dems. We'll see if the talks shows this weekend are filled with "failed", "grandma/seniors", "cliff", "settled science" (oops, wrong subject) and "move on".
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Ryan wants to keep ObamaCare and he made it happen
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Ryan wants to keep ObamaCare and he made it happen
There is no keeping ObamaCare. It is not sustainable. In six months or so, ObamaCare will die of its own weight.
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There is no keeping ObamaCare. It is not sustainable. In six months or so, ObamaCare will die of its own weight.
With Republicans Like Paul Ryan, Who Needs Democrats?
https://drhurd.com/2017/03/24/63464/
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There really aren't any liars. The moderates who oppose repeal without keeping some parts of Obamacare via replacement have been upfront about that since before the election. They'd vote for the repeal bill, but generally while also saying that they wanted to see some aspects of it kept. And it was an open secret that Republicans in Congress before the election could not get agreement on a replacement bill.
But that wasn't what they have been telling the folks back home who have been clamoring for the repeal of this disaster. From the beginning, some 60% of Americans were in favor of repeal, and while that looks highly unlikely, those same people who were aghast at Roberts' failure to find a penalty for not purchasing a product to be unconstitutional are again aghast that those who voted for repeal when there was no chance of anything but a veto, now will not when there is a chance the bill will be signed into law.
It is no accident that this last election turnouts were execrable, barely enough to rid the political landscape of Hillary for a while. Now another layer of disillusionment has been added for the people who actually thought Mr Smith went to Washington on their behalf.
In the meantime, the 'right' people are laughing over drinks and God only knows what else at the plebeian rubes who put them in office, smugly shoulder to shoulder in slick suits at the 'right' cocktail parties, just living the dream at our children's childrens' expense, and buying votes with your wages.
The supposed "unity" on just repealing ObamaCare and letting the chips fall where they may never existed. This debacle was just confirmation of what has generally been known by anyone looking at facts rather than just seeing what they want to see.
Sure, it existed, it was a lie, but that doesn't mean there wasn't unity.
No, apparently there was no intent to actually repeal the thing, any more than America had a snowball's chance in Hell of seeing it thrown out at the SCOTUS. It is all a charade, typical cherry blossom Kabuki theater for the tourists, for the suckers back home.
That is the reason Ryan pulled the bill. If it had gone for a vote, someone would have voted for it, and they'd have had some awkward moments at townhall meetings back in their home district explaining that. There would have had to be some pretty serious staging to keep the questions from being asked that just might cost them their jobs.
This way they can hide behind the actions of the speaker.
Trump's willingness to keep parts of the bill enables this nonsense, too. If we had someone in there who would simply say "Send me a bill to repeal this monstrosity", they'd really be out on a limb.
Here is an article from June 2016.
GOP framework for Obamacare replacement is short on details
Seven months before President Barack Obama leaves the White House, congressional Republicans have little more than a white paper to show voters what they would do if given the chance to repeal the health care law that bears his name.
Speaker Paul Ryan on Wednesday will lay out the House’s plan to repeal and replace Obamacare in a paper designed to show voters the GOP isn’t just a party of no.
But the paper — which paints a conservative health policy agenda in broad strokes but doesn’t get into details like dollar amounts, who would be covered or how much financial help they might get — underscores the political and policy problems facing Republicans as they seek to unite around a plan to unravel a social safety net program that is already used by 20 million people.
Twenty million? Six percent? How many LOST their insurance because of this 'safety net', and how many more are stuck with some plan that leaves them paying multiples of their previous premiums and paying out of pocket for their health care, too?
You mean to tell me that six percent of the American people are what Congress is worried about?
Not likely, not even as a voting bloc.
Which tells me the scammers on The Hill are lining their pockets over this deal. There can be no other explanation for throwing out the 94% of the American people who got the shaft.
Conservative factions have blasted plans deemed to provide too much coverage — such as Scott Walker’s prescription when he was running for president — as “Obamacare Lite.” At the other end of the spectrum, moderate Republicans have criticized plans that offer too little coverage as unsympathetic to people with expensive pre-existing illnesses.
“If you live in the Republican conference … I don’t think Jesus could get everyone to agree on everything,” said Rep. Phil Roe (R-Tenn.), a physician who has attended all of the task force meetings on the health plan.[/i]
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/obamacare-house-republicans-224640
Trapped by the false narrative of having to replace something that has done far more damage than good, that was fundamentally unsound, economically and otherwise, conservatives Republicans on the Hill have found themselves bound by a Gordian knot of of this program/that program/whose arse to kiss to keep their job, when the actual solution is to cut the damned rope.
The only truly shocking thing is that so many people are shocked that they can't reach an agreement. That's been an open secret for a very long time, covered up by a lot of self-delusion that there existed this great consensus to just eliminate ObamaCare without doing anything else.
The deal was simple. We sent them to Washington to get rid of Obamacare. We didn't want government run health insurance (it never was healthcare, just insurance) because even those of us who were buying our own insurance had a better deal in the private sector.
The basis on which the GOP obtained a majority in Congress was repeal.
They're politicians, they lied. What a shocker!
How damned long are we, the constituents, the voters going to allow those bastards to get away with that?
I have ever been skeptical of the efficacy of an Article 5 convention, but if and when it happens: Amendment "Every elected office holder in the Federal Government shall be subject to recall election upon petition by 10% of the voters in their home district or State, and be replaced upon the majority vote of those voters to remove them from office, with the exception of the offices of President and Vice President."
I'd prefer that result myself, but it's not going to happen. And if people think the midterms are going to be the chance to get a majority of conservatives in both the House and Senate willing to vote for a straight repeal...good luck. That ain't happening either.
No, it won't happen in the midterms. Unfortunately, these scalywags grease their home districts well enough that they'll likely be reelected, even after such an egregious breach of the public trust. If they aren't removed by a primary challenger, they will rely on the fear of depredations which would be imposed by a Democrat majority.
Both sides of the aisle use this fear of the other Party to maintain their jobs.
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There is no keeping ObamaCare. It is not sustainable. In six months or so, ObamaCare will die of its own weight.
@240B
In theory and by the law of economics it should.
But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.
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@240B
In theory and by the law of economics it should.
But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.
If the government starts covering health care, then we will have transitioned to single payer government controlled health care, which is exactly what Obama had in mind the whole time.
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If the government starts covering health care, then we will have transitioned to single payer government controlled health care, which is exactly what Obama had in mind the whole time.
Apparently the Congress had that in mind, too--at least most of it.
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If the government starts covering health care, then we will have transitioned to single payer government controlled health care, which is exactly what Obama had in mind the whole time.
@240B
Exactly.
So be prepared for more sluggish economic growth
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@240B
In theory and by the law of economics it should.
But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.
Social security has been in a state of collapse for decades yet remains animated like a zombie.
Same with standard public vs charter schools. An under performing charter school will be closed in a few years while a failing public school will stumble along for decades eating young brains.
Govt subsidizes failure.
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There's a couple of problems with letting Obamacare implode:
1/ "The Republicans killed it." It's BS, but that is going to be the wail from the left. It will be effective because ...
2/ People get hurt when things blow up. When Obamacare collapses as it will, a lot of people are going to get hurt. They are not going to blame the Worm. They will blame the party on who's watch the collapse happens.
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What really needs to happen for health care reform is to break the back of the collusion between health care providers and health insurers.
PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED TO AFFORD HEALTH CARE.
If anyone cares to do the research you will see what I am getting at.
A couple of things:
Free Market Healthcare Reform
Making insurance a much worse deal is the fact that America’s insured often must pay more out-of-pocket for a treatment than someone would pay who was uninsured and negotiated a cash price prior to being treated.
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/25568-free-market-healthcare-reform
An example of true cost.
http://truecostofhealthcare.net/
Kick health providers, and insurers out on the street. Make them scramble for profits just like any other business in this country.
I thought there were laws to prevent monopolies. Not when it comes to your health care.
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@bigheadfred
Insurance is the single biggest cost increaser of health care there is.
In 1964 my hospital birth and 3 day stay in the hospital only cost around $75 which was about 2 weeks pay for my dad who was a garbageman at the time. Today its several thousand dollars.
Few people had health insurance in those days and few employers provided it.
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I went to the doc last week. He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there. When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left.
I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated. Now we pay much less than when we had insurance. Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums. Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble. Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.
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I went to the doc last week. He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there. When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left.
@anubias
@bigheadfred
You are so right about this. I have been in the emergency room twice in my life and both happened within the last two years. One was when a car hit ours on my side of the car and I couldn't move my neck. EMS got there and took me to the trauma hospital nearby. With the neck brace on I couldn't see anything around me, was stuck looking at the ceiling. X-rays and MRI were done. Neck wasn't broken and I got to go home. I have Medicare and a supplemental policy. When I got the bill, it was many thousands of dollars and tests were listed they didn't do.
A year later, I fell outside and my face smashed down on a big rock. Ambulance took me to same trauma hospital. X-rays on knee and MRI on face/skull. Facial bones were not broken, left side of face was black and left eye full of blood, cornea scratched, but nothing broken. Knee not broken. Knee was bleeding on their sheets, but they didn't do anything to stop it. Since nothing broken, sent me home. When got home, stopped my knee from bleeding and put antibiotic cream on it and bandaged it. Later got bill, many thousands of dollars and tests they didn't do.
When you have to be taken to an emergency room, there is something really wrong and you are not thinking of how much your care might cost. The first time, I hoped my neck wasn't broken and the second time, hoped my skull/face wasn't broken. I was not thinking they (or the doc who sends a separate bill which was over $1,000) might cheat on the bill and put things they didn't do. Didn't think about they would charge thousands of dollars for an x-ray and/or MRI.
It is absolutely wrong for hospitals to charge what they do and to list tests they don't do. I wonder what the charge in both cases would have been if I had no insurance like you. In my case for both times, I paid nothing but I pay about $400 a month for the two insurances. If I had no insurance, what would they have charged me? None of this is right - it is a farce.
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I went to the doc last week. He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there. When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left.
I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated. Now we pay much less than when we had insurance. Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums. Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble. Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.
We are EXACTLY in the same spot with healthcare. EXACTLY.
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@Victoria33
I can't tell you what your trauma facility would have done, but I do know what the hospital did for me on the two occasions that I have been to the ER since losing insurance. The hospital I chose was a "Methodist" hospital that was closest to me. I was told that "charity" pays for the uninsured even though I was willing to pay the bill. I do not know if it was truly charity from donors to the hospital or if it was our taxes that paid the hospital for the uninsured. I never received a bill.
I did receive bills from the docs that saw me. Both were a $1000 reduced to $160 due to being uninsured. While I was happy to receive the reduced bills, I was stunned at the difference in the cost. I felt rather foolish for paying insurance premiums along with a $150 ER copay all those years that I realized was a hidden form of socialism taking from me (my premiums) to pay for others. Frankly, I suspect we have had socialized medicine all along disguised as insurance.
I would like to be able to have a catastrophic policy though. I do dread the financial ruin if one of us develops a catastrophic illness. For all I know, the government probably picks up the tab for the uninsured as well, but I'd prefer not to find out. I am infuriated that I am unable to buy a catastrophic policy. I should be free to choose the policy that I want with whom I want.
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We are EXACTLY in the same spot with healthcare. EXACTLY.
Thus the reason I am furious with Ryan. O'bammy didn't mind taking away our insurance, but Ryan doesn't dare tick off some Dem voters by taking away those that are receiving FREE healthcare with 0care? Does he not realize that most Conservatives have refused to sign up for 0care? His constituency or what was his constituency until he decided he needed to kneecap us for having the audacity for supporting Cruz and/or Trump in the primaries. We shall all be taught a lesson I am afraid.
I want that man's head on a platter with a Conservative to replace him post-haste.
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I know people are sick of my talking about my now former problem with the Hep C, but I only want to put out the information.
The cost of that treatment here--the medication for the one drug-is $84,000. A 5000% profit margin. Yes, because of my circumstances they gave me that treatment for free. But if they hadn't I considered the price completely unaffordable. If it doesn't work I die and leave my wife with that bill? NO. I've heard all the rebuttals about the cost of research blah, blah, blah.
If they had not helped me my next best option would have been to go to India and live there for 3 months. The cost there for the exact same treatment is in the $700 range. Airfare, room and board, and treatment would have been far far less than the $84k here.
I have no problem with paying my way. What I am saying is give a man a chance.
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The cost of that treatment here--the medication for the one drug-is $84,000.
@bigheadfred
Most people wouldn't know to try to get that drug for free, so they die. Most of us could not pay $84,000 because we don't have that much just sitting around.
Your $84,000 for the drug is the same thing happening in hospitals that happened to me, many thousands of dollars for an ex-ray/MRI, and charges for tests they didn't do. I think the whole bill was about $20,000 in both cases, plus the separate doctor bill of over $1,000. What the doctor did was look at the x-rays/MRIs and determine nothing was broken. He saw me when they brought me in and came back later to say nothing was broken. That was it for him.
People with Obamacare do not have health insurance - they have a piece of paper and a card causing them to pay thousands in premiums with a deductible so high they have to pay for all their healthcare. That piece of paper and their insurance card is worthless unless they get cancer or numerous heart attacks. Even then, they would not have that much money - having to pay the multiple thousands before the insurance would kick in and then they have to pay 20% of the rest of the bills after it kicks in.
Democrats know this is crap but it allows them to say anyone can have healthcare now. That of course, is a lie. People just have a piece of paper and a card.
Thank goodness you are still alive and well now.
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@240B
In theory and by the law of economics it should.
But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.
Yes, we have a Federal Reserve that has been propping up a Democrat administration for over eight years by keeping interest rates low. But don't expect that to continue.... now that Republicans have a majority control plus the White House. They (the left) will bring it all down (again) just so they can blame the GOP.
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@Smokin Joe
But that wasn't what they have been telling the folks back home who have been clamoring for the repeal of this disaster. From the beginning, some 60% of Americans were in favor of repeal, and while that looks highly unlikely, those same people who were aghast at Roberts' failure to find a penalty for not purchasing a product to be unconstitutional are again aghast that those who voted for repeal when there was no chance of anything but a veto, now will not when there is a chance the bill will be signed into law.
The polls were always more complicated than that. Very rarely was there actually a majority saying repeal it and do nothing else. Generally, votes were divided between "fix", "repeal and replace", and "repeal". And as it turned out, some specific parts of Obamacare, like no denial for pre-existing conditions and coverage of adult children to age 26, usually polled well. I personally think both are terrible ideas, and I know you do as well. But we aren't, and never were, the majority. And members of Congress knew that. This is from 2014:
Protection against preexisting-condition exclusions is a core guarantee of Obamacare, and one that consistently garners the greatest public approval. In a Kaiser Family Foundation tracking poll in March 2014, some 70% of respondents had a favorable view of the rule, a result that spanned political coloration -- even 69% of Republicans were in favor. (See chart below.)
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-pre-existing-conditions-20151104-column.html
No, apparently there was no intent to actually repeal the thing, any more than America had a snowball's chance in Hell of seeing it thrown out at the SCOTUS.
I don't think that's fair. I think a solid 85-90% of the GOP Caucus in each House honestly intend/desired to repeal ObamaCare completely. The problem has always been that there were enough moderates who didn't want to eliminate it completely to deprive the rest of a majority. It's not Senator Cruz' fault that Senator Portman insists on preserving Medicaid expansion.
That is the reason Ryan pulled the bill. If it had gone for a vote, someone would have voted for it, and they'd have had some awkward moments at townhall meetings back in their home district explaining that.
I disagree with your premise that there really is a majority in each district that truly wanted every little bit of ObamaCare repealed with no replacement. I'm in Ohio, and I know that the guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension were both popular. Portman may get hung if ObamaCare isn't fixed, but he probably would have been hung for eliminating guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension as well.
This way they can hide behind the actions of the speaker.
I think Ryan personally would be thrilled to repeal the entire thing, and either not replace it, or deal with that down the road. He's just constrained by a lack of votes for that position, and knows it won't pass.
[quoteTrump's willingness to keep parts of the bill enables this nonsense, too.[/quote]
Agree.
Which tells me the scammers on The Hill are lining their pockets over this deal. There can be no other explanation for throwing out the 94% of the American people who got the shaft.
There is more than 6% of the population that supports the pre-existing condition inclusion, and the age 26 expansion. You and I know that both of those carry a lot of baggage that inflates costs, but a great many people don't see it that way. They like those things, and want to have those things and lower costs. It's unrealistic, but people vote all the time based off unrealistic expectations.
The deal was simple. We sent them to Washington to get rid of Obamacare.
But it really wasn't a "simple" deal at all. Us self-professed conservatives sent them there for that reason, but a lot of people voted for Republicans based on promises that they would "repeal" Obama but also keep some things. I saw the ads Portman ran in Ohio myself. He ran on "Repeal ObamaCare, but also....." He's essentially stuck with that.
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2/ People get hurt when things blow up. When Obamacare collapses as it will, a lot of people are going to get hurt.
People are getting hurt now. What about them?
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And that was the problem!
After 7 years of hearing "give us the power and we will repeal this day one" they didn't do it. They didn't have a plan that they could agree on and Ryan presented a bill that no one was allowed to amend except him. The Rats have to be excited they will gain seats in 2018 and maybe the POTUS in 2020.
I can't believe the Pubs threw away this once in a lifetime opportunity.
It's not a once in a lifetime opportunity. It is a once in March of 2017 opportunity. We still have a Republican president and a Republican congress and every opportunity to construct a bill that we can sell to the people who didn't like this one.
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Best thing that could be done now is to quickly get a vote in the House on a straight-up repeal -- have the vote regardless of whether or not there are enough votes for it to pass. And regardless of what would happen to the bill in the Senate.
I agree with you on that. That could be fought for with fervor and probably would have passed.
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People are getting hurt now. What about them?
The RINO's aren't getting the blame for those.
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Ryan wants to keep ObamaCare and he made it happen
That is a flat out lie.
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Yes, we have a Federal Reserve that has been propping up a Democrat administration for over eight years by keeping interest rates low. But don't expect that to continue.... now that Republicans have a majority control plus the White House. They (the left) will bring it all down (again) just so they can blame the GOP.
But even with them propping up the economy in the last eight years we still had one of the worst recoveries.
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I went to the doc last week. He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there. When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left.
I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated. Now we pay much less than when we had insurance. Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums. Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble. Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.
Interesting anecdote. We should be able to purchase catastrophic health care. We should figure out how much health expense we could pay without going bankrupt. If we want to gamble on that ... say, risking selling one's cars or going into debt, then we should be allowed to. But those that do that gamble should not expect someone else to rescue them.
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@bigheadfred
Insurance is the single biggest cost increaser of health care there is.
In 1964 my hospital birth and 3 day stay in the hospital only cost around $75 which was about 2 weeks pay for my dad who was a garbageman at the time. Today its several thousand dollars.
Few people had health insurance in those days and few employers provided it.
I'd tell you what my birth cost but nobody would believe it.
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@Smokin Joe
The polls were always more complicated than that. Very rarely was there actually a majority saying repeal it and do nothing else. Generally, votes were divided between "fix", "repeal and replace", and "repeal". And as it turned out, some specific parts of Obamacare, like no denial for pre-existing conditions and coverage of adult children to age 26, usually polled well. I personally think both are terrible ideas, and I know you do as well. But we aren't, and never were, the majority. And members of Congress knew that. This is from 2014:
Protection against preexisting-condition exclusions is a core guarantee of Obamacare, and one that consistently garners the greatest public approval. In a Kaiser Family Foundation tracking poll in March 2014, some 70% of respondents had a favorable view of the rule, a result that spanned political coloration -- even 69% of Republicans were in favor. (See chart below.)
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-pre-existing-conditions-20151104-column.html
I don't think that's fair. I think a solid 85-90% of the GOP Caucus in each House honestly intend/desired to repeal ObamaCare completely. The problem has always been that there were enough moderates who didn't want to eliminate it completely to deprive the rest of a majority. It's not Senator Cruz' fault that Senator Portman insists on preserving Medicaid expansion.
I disagree with your premise that there really is a majority in each district that truly wanted every little bit of ObamaCare repealed with no replacement. I'm in Ohio, and I know that the guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension were both popular. Portman may get hung if ObamaCare isn't fixed, but he probably would have been hung for eliminating guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension as well.
I think Ryan personally would be thrilled to repeal the entire thing, and either not replace it, or deal with that down the road. He's just constrained by a lack of votes for that position, and knows it won't pass.
There is more than 6% of the population that supports the pre-existing condition inclusion, and the age 26 expansion. You and I know that both of those carry a lot of baggage that inflates costs, but a great many people don't see it that way. They like those things, and want to have those things and lower costs. It's unrealistic, but people vote all the time based off unrealistic expectations.
But it really wasn't a "simple" deal at all. Us self-professed conservatives sent them there for that reason, but a lot of people voted for Republicans based on promises that they would "repeal" Obama but also keep some things. I saw the ads Portman ran in Ohio myself. He ran on "Repeal ObamaCare, but also....." He's essentially stuck with that.
Dammit, Bill. Stop making so much sense. It confuses us.
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I'd tell you what my birth cost but nobody would believe it.
I hope it wasn't the life of your mother.
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I hope it wasn't the life of your mother.
No, I would never be facetious about that. Just reading that hurt my heart.
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@Victoria33
I can't tell you what your trauma facility would have done, but I do know what the hospital did for me on the two occasions that I have been to the ER since losing insurance. The hospital I chose was a "Methodist" hospital that was closest to me. I was told that "charity" pays for the uninsured even though I was willing to pay the bill. I do not know if it was truly charity from donors to the hospital or if it was our taxes that paid the hospital for the uninsured. I never received a bill.
I did receive bills from the docs that saw me. Both were a $1000 reduced to $160 due to being uninsured. While I was happy to receive the reduced bills, I was stunned at the difference in the cost. I felt rather foolish for paying insurance premiums along with a $150 ER copay all those years that I realized was a hidden form of socialism taking from me (my premiums) to pay for others. Frankly, I suspect we have had socialized medicine all along disguised as insurance.
I would like to be able to have a catastrophic policy though. I do dread the financial ruin if one of us develops a catastrophic illness. For all I know, the government probably picks up the tab for the uninsured as well, but I'd prefer not to find out. I am infuriated that I am unable to buy a catastrophic policy. I should be free to choose the policy that I want with whom I want.
Glad you were able to get the care you needed, but please keep in mind that the the doctor's bill before being reduced was more than likely what the ICD required for the billing. Do not be confused at the billable amount for a service and what a doctor actually receives, they are wildly different amounts, I know, the wife is a CPC (Certified Professional Coder) and it's her business. You may or may not be amazed at how many providers have given up their practices due to the insane costs and requirements of Obamacare. Just another reason why patchwork repairs are ridiculous.
@anubias
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Has anyone noticed how much better Trump is looking these days?
His hair is white and he is a nice tan color. Who says he can't learn.
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Has anyone noticed how much better Trump is looking these days?
His hair is white and he is a nice tan color. Who says he can't learn.
Dang, @Emjay....I'm sorry, but, uh,no. Holy cow.
Look more closely...that's not white hair. He's just using a lighter shade of daffodil yellow. For Easter, maybe?
(https://i.imgflip.com/2/lzr5n.jpg)
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Dang, @Emjay....I'm sorry, but, uh,no. Holy cow.
Look more closely...that's not white hair. He's just using a lighter shade of daffodil yellow. For Easter, maybe?
(https://i.imgflip.com/2/lzr5n.jpg)
No, really, I just started noticing it myself yesterday. I've told you guys all along that I owe a lot to Trump and I will defend him at every opportunity.
He's been taking some hits lately but, trust me, he's looking great.
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Dang, @Emjay....I'm sorry, but, uh,no. Holy cow.
Look more closely...that's not white hair. He's just using a lighter shade of daffodil yellow. For Easter, maybe?
(https://i.imgflip.com/2/lzr5n.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/spaOiC9.gif)
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(http://i.imgur.com/spaOiC9.gif)
No; c'mon, Bro. He's got that elder statesman look going now. Trust me.
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No, really, I just started noticing it myself yesterday. I've told you guys all along that I owe a lot to Trump and I will defend him at every opportunity.
He's been taking some hits lately but, trust me, he's looking great.
@Emjay
Well, it's a matter of opinion. I've always found him to be physically repulsive, even before I knew anything about him. He has a lamprey's mouth.
After his healthcare bill antics, I'm done attempting to give him credit for anything. If something good comes out of this administration, it will be by accident and in spite of him. I don't like the man and I never will, and I feel so free.
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No; c'mon, Bro. He's got that elder statesman look going now. Trust me.
@Emjay
(http://nation.com.pk/print_images/large/2017-03-24/trump-s-truck-driver-moment-1490375279-9583.jpg)
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"Get all those people out from under my bus, I gotta roll!"
(http://nation.com.pk/print_images/large/2017-03-24/trump-s-truck-driver-moment-1490375279-9583.jpg)
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@Emjay
Well, it's a matter of opinion. I've always found him to be physically repulsive, even before I knew anything about him. He has a lamprey's mouth.
After his healthcare bill antics, I'm done attempting to give him credit for anything. If something good comes out of this administration, it will be by accident and in spite of him. I don't like the man and I never will, and I feel so free.
Good for you. You don't have to like him but he's the reason we can wake up every morning and know that Hillary Clinton is not president and that Barack Obama is plotting down the street to regain power he can never regain.
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Good for you. You don't have to like him but he's the reason we can wake up every morning and know that Hillary Clinton is not president and that Barack Obama is plotting down the street to regain power he can never regain.
It's easy to feel free if you totally detach yourself from the fight. I'd like to do that as well, but my conscience forbids it.
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Good for you. You don't have to like him but he's the reason we can wake up every morning and know that Hillary Clinton is not president and that Barack Obama is plotting down the street to regain power he can never regain.
@Emjay That Hillary thing is something I just can't comprehend because I think the top 10 of the 17 in the Primary could have beat Hillary, her non-existent campaign and the DNC/Bernie fight seriously wounded her, not to mention her negative's, untrustworthiness and corruption.
But since we're dealing with hypotheticals, allow me to indulge myself:
Had Cruz been elected I think he would have had the same problems as Trump with getting his cabinet in place, but one thing I know for sure this recent repeal & replace disaster never would have occurred. JS
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@Emjay That Hillary thing is something I just can't comprehend because I think the top 10 of the 17 in the Primary could have beat Hillary, her non-existent campaign and the DNC/Bernie fight seriously wounded her, not to mention her negative's, untrustworthiness and corruption.
But since we're dealing with hypotheticals, allow me to indulge myself:
Had Cruz been elected I think he would have had the same problems as Trump with getting his cabinet in place, but one thing I know for sure this recent repeal & replace disaster never would have occurred. JS
Of course it would not have. Ted Cruz would be a great president and I hope he will someday.
I think he would have had better luck putting together an acceptable bill, but that's just me.
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Of course it would not have. Ted Cruz would be a great president and I hope he will someday.
I think he would have had better luck putting together an acceptable bill, but that's just me.
:beer:
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Of course it would not have. Ted Cruz would be a great president and I hope he will someday.
I think he would have had better luck putting together an acceptable bill, but that's just me.
Switching from hypotheticals to reality, how many of those 7 or 8 you liked came close to getting the nomination?
I've been wrong about this whole election from day one. But I don't want Trump to go down in flames just because you and a few others hate him.
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If someone can tell me the upside in destroying Trump, please feel free. I don't see it, no matter how much he embarrasses your delicate sensibilities.
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Switching from hypotheticals to reality, how many of those 7 or 8 you liked came close to getting the nomination?
I've been wrong about this whole election from day one. But I don't want Trump to go down in flames just because you and a few others hate him.
@Emjay I'm very bias about your first inquiry, Ted Cruz was the only one I liked among them all, I voted Darrell Castle/Constitution Party, but I have the luxury of living in Texas, it was a foregone conclusion that Trump was gonna get all 39 electorial votes.
Many here did not have that luxury, residing in purple states, and I respect them all.
You been listening to @Frank Cannon again, I don't hate the man and I want him to succeed and in 4 years get out.
Granted during the primary I wore my dislike for the man on my sleeve for all to see, but hate is a word that rarely if ever gets typed on my keyboard, it just does not reside in my Heart.
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"Get all those people out from under my bus, I gotta roll!"
(http://nation.com.pk/print_images/large/2017-03-24/trump-s-truck-driver-moment-1490375279-9583.jpg)
@corbe
LOL
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@Emjay I'm very bias about your first inquiry, Ted Cruz was the only one I liked among them all, I voted Darrell Castle/Constitution Party, but I have the luxury of living in Texas, it was a foregone conclusion that Trump was gonna get all 39 electorial votes.
Many here did not have that luxury, residing in purple states, and I respect them all.
You been listening to @Frank Cannon again, I don't hate the man and I want him to succeed and in 4 years get out.
Granted during the primary I wore my dislike for the man on my sleeve for all to see, but hate is a word that rarely if ever gets typed on my keyboard, it just does not reside in my Heart.
Ditto (all) that!
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If someone can tell me the upside in destroying Trump, please feel free. I don't see it, no matter how much he embarrasses your delicate sensibilities.
There is no upside to it. The idiot left wins in that case. Lose-lose scenario.
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If someone can tell me the upside in destroying Trump, please feel free. I don't see it, no matter how much he embarrasses your delicate sensibilities.
Of course you are correct. Any American who considers themselves anything other than a progressive should hope he succeeds.
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If someone can tell me the upside in destroying Trump, please feel free. I don't see it, no matter how much he embarrasses your delicate sensibilities.
Ask Trump. He seems to be the one trying to destroy himself.
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If someone can tell me the upside in destroying Trump, please feel free. I don't see it, no matter how much he embarrasses your delicate sensibilities.
No upside in destroying Trump and I wonder what's the upside to degenerating people that just don't feel as strongly about him as you do.
Sure, there are still some here that make their #nevertrump boldly visible and there are also those that can find no wrong in him no matter what, It balances out pretty well, providing for oftentimes passionate and informed debate here.
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Good for you. You don't have to like him but he's the reason we can wake up every morning and know that Hillary Clinton is not president and that Barack Obama is plotting down the street to regain power he can never regain.
@Emjay
You're right. I don't have to like him. And Hillary Clinton is history, out of the picture, old news---she has nothing to do with anything. Same for Obama, pretty much.
We should be forming our opinions on Trump based on the man himself, and no one else. And the bottom line is this: he campaigned on repealing Obamacare, but he lied. He doesn't give a damn about the American people or what kind of nightmarish healthcare system we might have to deal with---all that matters to him is a "win" in his column. He didn't get it, so he wants to move on, like some kind of dime store monarch with bad hair plugs. But that's not how it works. He's a public employee, and he'll deal with whatever bills are put in front of him.
No one posting on an internet forum can "destroy" Trump. He can only do that to himself.
I think he's a liar, a fraud, and a con man. Nothing more.
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Tell us how you really feel @CatherineofAragon don't hold back.
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There was NOTHING done by DT during the primary that would have endeared him to me. There was not a single day that went by that he did not slander his opponents. He trashed Starbucks because he didn't like their coffee cups. He went after Macy's Dept. store because they didn't carry his ties. He went after the company that made Twinkies...
It was attack attack attack and then act the vulgarian.
Aside from Santorum, Huckabee, and Graham and Carson ... I would have been happy with any of the candidates.
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Tell us how you really feel @CatherineofAragon don't hold back.
@corbe
Overkill? *sigh*
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I went to the doc last week. He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there. When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left.
I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated. Now we pay much less than when we had insurance. Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums. Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble. Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.
I had catastrophic insurance, with a 5K deductible per event. I was happy with that, put the max in the MSA annually, and paid the small stuff out of that account for a family of 4 and did it for less than 1/3 of what the Cadillac plan would have cost, not counting deductibles and co-pays. Being self-employed, the insurance cost was tax deductible, and the MSA payments were, too, so long as distributions were used only for medical costs. It worked. Thanks to the ACA, my insurer stopped writing health care policies, period. I'd love to be able to go back to that.
As far as I am concerned, just make medical costs tax deductible, from the first bottle of aspirin up. That alone would have done wonders, that and getting rid of the penalty.
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@bigheadfred
People with Obamacare do not have health insurance - they have a piece of paper and a card causing them to pay thousands in premiums with a deductible so high they have to pay for all their healthcare. That piece of paper and their insurance card is worthless unless they get cancer or numerous heart attacks. Even then, they would not have that much money - having to pay the multiple thousands before the insurance would kick in and then they have to pay 20% of the rest of the bills after it kicks in.
Democrats know this is crap but it allows them to say anyone can have healthcare now. That of course, is a lie. People just have a piece of paper and a card.
QFT!
Democrats have been scamming poor people and other gullibles for far too long as it is. With the exception of people who have serious and ongoing medical problems, the obamacare policies don't make economic sense. It just leaves people paying out of pocket with the illusion they have 'insurance', while they are picking up the tab for chronic patients who might not have otherwise been able to get insurance. For the average person, it would have been better to just kick in another grand a year in taxes and keep what they had.
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The RINO's aren't getting the blame for those.
Oh really? Look around here. They took it up, they own it now, their little paw prints are all over it. Aside from being true, that will be the optic the MSM gleefully promotes as well. (Along with Trump/Failure, of course.)
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But even with them propping up the economy in the last eight years we still had one of the worst recoveries.
Small wonder. Billions of that money were siphoned off somewhere, sent out in 'community grants' to ACORN offshoots, and the like. A friend who lived in the Denver area said the signs went up proclaiming the stimulus-financed road project in the spring, and came down in the fall, and that was all the road project there was. Signs up/signs down, no road work. God only knows how much money went where, but it didn't go to jobs--not even public works.
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@Emjay
You're right. I don't have to like him. And Hillary Clinton is history, out of the picture, old news---she has nothing to do with anything. Same for Obama, pretty much.
We should be forming our opinions on Trump based on the man himself, and no one else. And the bottom line is this: he campaigned on repealing Obamacare, but he lied. He doesn't give a damn about the American people or what kind of nightmarish healthcare system we might have to deal with---all that matters to him is a "win" in his column. He didn't get it, so he wants to move on, like some kind of dime store monarch with bad hair plugs. But that's not how it works. He's a public employee, and he'll deal with whatever bills are put in front of him.
No one posting on an internet forum can "destroy" Trump. He can only do that to himself.
I think he's a liar, a fraud, and a con man. Nothing more.
I'm going to have to disagree on a point. Trump campaigned on forcing coverage of preexisting conditions which negates anything called insurance which is risk based. Second Trump said that for the "25%" who can't afford health insurance the "government is going to pay for it". With those two things Obamacare can't be repealed because there is no market based solution possible to replace it. So in short, Trump got exactly what he asked for out of Ryan.
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I had catastrophic insurance, with a 5K deductible per event. I was happy with that, put the max in the MSA annually, and paid the small stuff out of that account for a family of 4 and did it for less than 1/3 of what the Cadillac plan would have cost, not counting deductibles and co-pays. Being self-employed, the insurance cost was tax deductible, and the MSA payments were, too, so long as distributions were used only for medical costs. It worked. Thanks to the ACA, my insurer stopped writing health care policies, period. I'd love to be able to go back to that.
My COBRA coverage recently ran out, and to buy insurance I had to go through the multi-billion dollar gov't website to get approval. I picked up what I would consider catastrophic insurance, which is all I really want anyway, at about 40% less than what I was paying for COBRA (which was probably a pretty decent plan, if you actually used health care).
I am NOT advocating for gov't interference with free markets, just pointing out that you may be able to find what you want if you look.
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No upside in destroying Trump and I wonder what's the upside to degenerating people that just don't feel as strongly about him as you do.
Sure, there are still some here that make their #nevertrump boldly visible and there are also those that can find no wrong in him no matter what, It balances out pretty well, providing for oftentimes passionate and informed debate here.
Well, hah, I don't like Trump at all. I fought tooth and nail against him in the primary but, hello, we lost and he is now our president.
I want him to succeed ... he's gonna make mistakes but his general goals are in line with what most of us want.
There was a picture yesterday of Schumer and Pelosi standing together, grinning like possums because they thought they'd scored a glorious victory since the health care bill didn't pass.
I do not want to see any more pictures of Schumer and Pelosi grinning like possums. Hillary was happy as a clown also.
I'm not responsible for Trump's personal idiosyncracies and failings and I don't accept responsibility for that because I support him. I support him because he's the only Republican president we have and if he can succeed, it will be a good thing for us and for conservatives.
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@Emjay I have to admit, I was smiling like a Cheshire cat too, yesterday when the bill was pulled and therein lies our basic political differences in outlooks toward Trump, I was happy because that crap was defeated NOT because Trump didn't get a check in the win column.
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There is no upside to it. The idiot left wins in that case. Lose-lose scenario.
Thank you, XenaLee. When I mention Hillary, there are way too many people around here who dismiss me .... like ... she's old news; anyone could have beaten her;; etc.
I have challenged people who constantly diss Trump here to tell me the upside in Trump being discredited to the point of somehow losing the presidency. I've gotten some reasonable thoughts but yours is the only answer I agree with.
I saw gloating yesterday from the dregs of society, the worst of the worst because Trump couldn't get his health care bill passed.
Can you even imagine the gloating if the left with the help of people who 'just can't stand' Trump manage to destroy him.
Personally, I think it is self-indulgent among a lot of our good people here who take joy in proclaiming how superior they are to Trump ... and, by the way, they probably are ... but they are not president.
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@Emjay I have to admit, I was smiling like a Cheshire cat too, yesterday when the bill was pulled and therein lies our basic political differences in outlooks toward Trump, I was happy because that crap was defeated NOT because Trump didn't get a check in the win column.
The plan was horrible. Especially for seniors. I was so glad they pulled it.
Why would we want to worse socialized medical plan that still covers illegals?
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The plan was horrible. Especially for seniors. I was so glad they pulled it.
Why would we want to worse socialized medical plan that still covers illegals?
I thought getting the illegals off the teat and back across the border was a priority, anyway. Why leave incentives in place? Patch 'em up, if need be, then put them on the next bus/plane/train/boat out.
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The plan was horrible. Especially for seniors. I was so glad they pulled it.
Why would we want to worse socialized medical plan that still covers illegals?
@corbe @Chosen Daughter
Dammit it, nobody understands me. I need my dog. I didn't like the bill either and I don't mind Corbe grinning because he's cute when he grins.
I'm talking about calling the whole Trump administration a failure after 60 days and one ill-advised bill that failed.
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I just told @truth_seeker that Trump's done some good things in his 60+ days, in spite of only having 50%, or less, of his political appointees seated and I don't overlook his serious character flaws, I realize he's all, we as a nation have right now, failure is not an option here, there's to much at stake.