I was wondering when we'd get a new boogeyman to keep the cash flowing into the military-industrial complex.
/snicker
can't you come up with anything even slightly less cliched?
Apparently not. I personally find it way too convenient that we all of a sudden have the perfect justification for waging more war in Iraq. However I am just a conspiracy nut, so pay no attention. It's not like we had anything to do with these guys becoming more militarized...
I think we had a LOT, if not EVERYTHING to do with ISIS being trained and equipped with our weapons.
I'm not sure if the intention is to help the military/industrial complex though - I'm thinking more that the intention is to help the Muslim Brotherhood take over the Middle East. The joke is on the buffoonish Obama, Hillary & Kerry though, because once we help them with the Middle East - they will come for the rest of the world. It's apocalyptic.
I was wondering when we'd get a new boogeyman to keep the cash flowing into the military-industrial complex.
This "boogeyman" you speak of want your head and mine on a pike, and for them to claim world domination as they usher in their twisted version of the end-of-days. And us pulling back and letting the Middle East solve their own problems is a sign of short sightedness at best.
However I personally feel that us getting the hell out of there and letting the Middle East deal with its own problems would increase the likelihood of them NOT attacking us.
:silly:
As a veteran, it sickens me to think about how many of my brothers and sisters in uniform as well as civilians have died or have been maimed by Islamic Fanciest, and this goes back to the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon back when I served. Tens of thousands of good people, and I’m tired of it. This evil must be destroyed. Ignoring them is NOT going to get them to ignore us – just the opposite. Do I need to remind you that the first attempt to blow up the foundation of one of the Twin Towers so it would topple over on the other, happened during a placid time in 1993 when we were ignoring the Middle east? And again in 2001 we were again just going about our business with our heads in the sand. Your belief that if we leave them alone they will leave us alone is lunacy.
How much success do you think ISIS is going to have when they storm the Californian coastline?
Apparently not. I personally find it way too convenient that we all of a sudden have the perfect justification for waging more war in Iraq. However I am just a conspiracy nut, so pay no attention. It's not like we had anything to do with these guys becoming more militarized...
That's what I was implying with my sarcasm there. :-P
Do you think Obama is intentionally trying to bring an apocalypse, or does he have something else to gain? Who benefits the most from perpetual war in the Middle East? There is no way these guys would ever become more than just a nuisance. We have more military might than the rest of the world combined. The entirety of the rest of the world could try to conquer us and at most we would destroy each other. If the threat they pose it terrorist attacks, well, there is nothing we can do about that anyway. If extremists in the Middle East or anywhere else want to use sneak attacks on us, there is a good chance they will be successful. It's damn near impossible to track and stop a well planned sneak attack. ISIS being a military power in the Middle East or not doesn't change that in any way.
However I personally feel that us getting the hell out of there and letting the Middle East deal with its own problems would increase the likelihood of them NOT attacking us. One of the most common messages to us from these terrorists is that they want us out of their countries and they want us to let them resolve their own issues. On that much I am inclined to agree with them. Dropping more bombs and killing more people isn't going to make Middle East extremists any less likely to attack us. The state of things right now makes it clear to me that not only have we not made the situation over there better, we have actually managed to make it worse.
The wild card in this whole thing is the religious fanatic part. You can't predict or reason with that kind of thinking - you will always be on the defensive end of it.
Yes, the old-school hawks and neo-cons did a bang-up job with the whole military/industrial complex thing - but it was necessary for the enemy we had at the time - the USSR. Big machines and weapons. Still do have to worry about that too, but now we have a different kind of enemy. They're scattering all over the globe and laying their eggs everywhere - eggs that will hatch into a new religious fanatic that believes their religion tells them to kill innocent people in the name of Allah.
Add to that grim picture - and we now have a leader that was actually brought up in that kind of society. We have a leader whose first instinct and knee-jerk reaction is to naturally sympathize and understand the thinking of this new enemy of ours.
Forget yesterday's thinking on the military industrial complex - this terrifying enemy doesn't care what you do - they hate you because you will not submit to THEM. They are the most horrific bullies you can imagine in your worst nightmare - they won't come en masse to our shores until their implanted cells surround us all and rip our society apart with us always looking over our shoulder in fearful trepidations of where they will attack next. THEN, their armies will come.
Their goal is a world-wide Caliphate and they don't care what they have to do to get it. When you have a barbaric and ruthless bully enemy like that - all you can do is go medieval on them!
If someone is going around your house at night, and setting little fires all over the place - you better damn well put those little fires out - or it's all going to go up in flames. You don't worry about WHY they're doing it- you just have to STOP it now!
There is a fundamental difference between our brothers gone thanks to the Tali's or AQ and the damage being done by ISIL. ISIL is an army, and the media won't admit that. You still get pictures of ragged looking Arabs waving guns in the street and they are not like that at all. They are formidably organized, battle hardened thanks to Syria and they have some wickedly effective and inventive commanders. Some of the tactics are sheer genius.
I too am in favor of destroying every last one of them. This is one time that simply cutting off the head of the beast won't do. They won't splinter into factions this time - they have and believe in a very specific goal.
The wild card in this whole thing is the religious fanatic part. You can't predict or reason with that kind of thinking - you will always be on the defensive end of it.
Yes, the old-school hawks and neo-cons did a bang-up job with the whole military/industrial complex thing - but it was necessary for the enemy we had at the time - the USSR. Big machines and weapons. Still do have to worry about that too, but now we have a different kind of enemy. They're scattering all over the globe and laying their eggs everywhere - eggs that will hatch into a new religious fanatic that believes their religion tells them to kill innocent people in the name of Allah.
Add to that grim picture - and we now have a leader that was actually brought up in that kind of society. We have a leader whose first instinct and knee-jerk reaction is to naturally sympathize and understand the thinking of this new enemy of ours.
Forget yesterday's thinking on the military industrial complex - this terrifying enemy doesn't care what you do - they hate you because you will not submit to THEM. They are the most horrific bullies you can imagine in your worst nightmare - they won't come en masse to our shores until their implanted cells surround us all and rip our society apart with us always looking over our shoulder in fearful trepidations of where they will attack next. THEN, their armies will come.
Their goal is a world-wide Caliphate and they don't care what they have to do to get it. When you have a barbaric and ruthless bully enemy like that - all you can do is go medieval on them!
If someone is going around your house at night, and setting little fires all over the place - you better damn well put those little fires out - or it's all going to go up in flames. You don't worry about WHY they're doing it- you just have to STOP it now!
Apparently not. I personally find it way too convenient that we all of a sudden have the perfect justification for waging more war in Iraq. However I am just a conspiracy nut, so pay no attention. It's not like we had anything to do with these guys becoming more militarized...
How much success do you think ISIS is going to have when they storm the Californian coastline?
Watch their actions, just don't listen to what they say. That's my advice on this.
Overseas: How are they going to prosecute the war? Are we going to be in it, to win it? Or are we going to stick with the low-grade, perpetual war model? That should provide insight as to whether or not the US (along with any willing allies) are intent on stopping this global threat, or are merely interested in plundering the treasury (and future) and willing to expend countless lives of the US (and allies) to continue to play a game of cat and mouse for years without end. (Are we going to keep insisting on building roads & schools that will be destroyed within weeks of building/re-building? Are we going to continue the decades old model of propping up one dictator after another, until said dictator is no longer "our dictator?" Are we going to insist on attempting to force western style democracies onto feudal societies with centuries old "red lines" of their own?)
Domestic: How are we going to go about weeding out the threat from within? Will we be smart and target the groups within their communities and gathering places? Will we be unapologetic about either deporting or imprisoning those that are fomenting terrorism (no matter what form it takes)? Or are we going to continue to infringe upon the Liberties and Freedom of ALL Americans (so that we can be "fair")? (Shall we keep fretting and wringing our hands about "training camps" built on the other side of the globe, while we allow the radicalization of American born terrorists in California?? (See the threads here about the latest guy currently locked up for 4 "jihad against Americans" murders in Seattle and NJ.) Are we going to keep hardening the police state in America because of constant and escalating threats from terrorists that we refuse to deal with properly??
(You know my take on this, I am a part of a small minority that believes that Western Civilization must confront the scourge of islam and drive it out of Western Civilization, root and branch. (Think of Fishhrman's "Apple Tree" analogy!) But at the present I see no evidence that Western Civilization (except in small pockets, e.g., some European countries that are a decade or so further down the invasion road than the US) is anywhere close to becoming willing to call a Spade, a Spade, and deal with it appropriately.
So as I say, watch how the US proceeds along these lines, that'll give you an indication of what beasts are being served.
If they would only just pull up in Higgins boats – but come on you know that is not how they operate. Do you even remember the two attacks on the Twin Towers in 1993, and 2001? A sleeper cell launching a Westgate Shopping Mall type of attack is tens of thousands of times more likely than some invasion that could be turned back.
what exactly are you saying is the reason Obama/Hagel want to go into Iraq?
The wild card in this whole thing is the religious fanatic part. You can't predict or reason with that kind of thinking - you will always be on the defensive end of it.
Yes, the old-school hawks and neo-cons did a bang-up job with the whole military/industrial complex thing - but it was necessary for the enemy we had at the time - the USSR. Big machines and weapons. Still do have to worry about that too, but now we have a different kind of enemy. They're scattering all over the globe and laying their eggs everywhere - eggs that will hatch into a new religious fanatic that believes their religion tells them to kill innocent people in the name of Allah.
Add to that grim picture - and we now have a leader that was actually brought up in that kind of society. We have a leader whose first instinct and knee-jerk reaction is to naturally sympathize and understand the thinking of this new enemy of ours.
Forget yesterday's thinking on the military industrial complex - this terrifying enemy doesn't care what you do - they hate you because you will not submit to THEM. They are the most horrific bullies you can imagine in your worst nightmare - they won't come en masse to our shores until their implanted cells surround us all and rip our society apart with us always looking over our shoulder in fearful trepidations of where they will attack next. THEN, their armies will come.
Their goal is a world-wide Caliphate and they don't care what they have to do to get it. When you have a barbaric and ruthless bully enemy like that - all you can do is go medieval on them!
If someone is going around your house at night, and setting little fires all over the place - you better damn well put those little fires out - or it's all going to go up in flames. You don't worry about WHY they're doing it- you just have to STOP it now!
In other words, the reason ISIS is so well armed now has very little to do with the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX (looks so much more scary in all caps, don't it) and everything to do with liberal democrat party politics.
To be perfectly blunt, 'twas Barack Obama and the liberal democrats who armed ISIS.
I'd suggest a return to high school, but unfortunately these days you wouldn't learn a whit more of real history or real thought.
I thought my first post made that clear.
I was wondering when we'd get a new boogeyman to keep the cash flowing into the military-industrial complex.
/snicker
strawman argument. are you saying that the 9/11 hijackers stormed the coastlines in Boston and New York City?
What?? THIS??? Obama????
Now THAT's funny!
Okay, Dex you make some good points. And on some level I even agree with you re war in the middle East. But on a base level, retaliation against aggression, and, yes, waging war is endemic to humankind. There will always be the next threat from without, the next Hitler to counter.
This is an important moment in history for Islam. Will it self examine and embrace modernity? Or will it continue to let it's fundamentalist orthodoxy threaten other religions and peoples with "convert or die?"
At that level, we gotta let the dogs loose! Pound them into submission. You don't need boots on the ground for that. Dust off the bombers and crank up the fighters. Get 'er done!
I'm feeling a bit testy this Friday evening.
The Middle East and the millions of decent, peace loving Muslims that live there are going to have to win this for themselves and decide to make the changes necessary to improve their culture and their future.
ISIS does not have the means to wage actual war against the United States. They wouldn't even stand a chance against Israel. If those are the goals of ISIS, their leadership is going to have a very rude awakening. If we decide to take them out we will do so easily. They could never pose a real threat to U.S citizens on U.S soil. You may be thinking "terrorist attacks" but I would like to once again reiterate that waging war in the Middle East is not going to decrease the likelihood of us getting hit by another sneak attack.
9/11 was a act of waging war, but you would disagree I suppose.
I'm saying once again that destroying ISIS or not will not make us any less likely to get hit by a terrorist attack. If some extremists get together and have enough brains and cash to put together a well planned attack, it will probably work. There isn't a lot we can do about that at this point in time. Also, if ISIS wants to take over the world they are going to have to do a lot more than take down a couple of towers.
And on that you are simply wrong; hopefully you won't be dead wrong.
Of course, I suppose I can see the certain logic in your argument. After all, what the Hell should a couple of Choos in Europe have mattered to us, eh? Why'd we have to go and get involved in Europe in WWII? We could have sat that side out nicely and simply licked our wounds from Pearl Harbor and made sure the Japanese forces couldn't storm the beaches in California. And who cares if ISIS is beheading a few here and there, right? Heck, they're just offing Christians, after all, and isn't that what Christians want anyways, to be martyred? After all, attacking Japan and smashing their fighting ability didn't solve anything, did it? It just made that part of the world madder at us, didn't it?
Maybe it's all just another deep conspiracy between the Koch Brothers and the .... (wait for it) ....MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!
Monty Python had the Spanish Inquisition. Dexxie boy has the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. Too bad he doesn't have any of the humor or wit that Monty Python had.
What the heck was "Lend Lease", if not a way to avoid spilling American blood on European soil?
Why don't you stop your insulting bullshit this beautiful Friday evening. It detracts from your otherwise intelligent argument(s)
:whistle:
Lend/Lease? Are you saying the only two valid responses are either (a) do-nothing isolationism, or (b) full boots-on-the-ground? Are you seriously saying that we should either STFU about Russia getting into Ukraine or get a full battalion of US soldiers on the ground? That supplying Ukraine with so-called lethal aid isn't a valid way of supporting an ally?
Just desserts don't always tolerate the foolish.
Just desserts don't always tolerate the foolish.
I respect your intelligence enough to not insult it over a disagreement. I'd like to think that I've at least demonstrated that I am not a complete fool, but perhaps not. Either way it should be beneath you to insult people that disagree with you.
Thinking you handled yourself splendidly, Dex! :beer:
DC (David), I rarely make a post like this, but you are a good guy through and through!! I may not agree 100% with your points and approach at times, but I can tell without a doubt that your heart (and soul) is in the right place, always!! :beer:
...
Well, reading over the thread it seems there are a couple of more besides Dex who thinks America’s best position is to not get involved. I respectfully disagree with the premise of leaving ISIS alone and hoping things will sort themselves out.
This will result in a radical theocracy (Caliphate) taking over the entire Mideast, and which will continue to spread to the west.
Moderate Moslems will not wage war on other Muslims. The people will not, cannot "rise up", against the theocracy of a Caliphate. It can only be stopped from the outside. These radicals WILL get nukes, and Will use them on us.
A cancer, left alone, always worsens. The sooner we obliterate this menace, the easier and less costly it will be.