The Briefing Room
General Category => Elections 2020 => Topic started by: mystery-ak on June 25, 2021, 01:28:51 pm
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Pence unloads on Trump: Former VP says 'nothing more un-American than idea that one person could choose the president' and he'll always be proud of certifying results after Trump rebuked him
Former Vice President Mike Pence said he was proud to certify the election results on Jan. 6, despite the disruption caused by the Capitol riot
It was one of his most direct public departures from former President Donald Trump, who contests the results of the 2020 presidential election
Pence was speaking to a crowd at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on Thursday
He still touted his and Trump's record during their four years in office, comparing Trump to Reagan
Pence rarely speaks about the events of Jan. 6 when a mob of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol
The last time was June 3, when Pence said he would never 'see eye-to-eye' with his former boss on the events of that day
By Peter Belfiore For Dailymail.Com
Published: 02:15 EDT, 25 June 2021 | Updated: 08:29 EDT, 25 June 2021
Former Vice President Mike Pence was proud to certify the presidential election results on Jan. 6 after a deadly riot at the US Capitol, he said in his most direct and pointed departure from former President Donald Trump.
Speaking to a crowd at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library on Thursday, Pence said it was his duty under the Constitution to certify the results, and while he made no direct mention of his former boss, he appeared to distance himself from Trump, who still disputes the results of the Electoral College tally.
'I will always be proud that we did our part on that tragic day to reconvene the Congress and fulfilled our duty under the Constitution and the laws of the United States,' Pence said.
more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9724167/Pence-departs-Trump-says-proud-certify-election-results.html
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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No one was asking you to select the president, but it was your duty to ensure the integrity of the election!
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No one was asking you to select the president, but it was your duty to ensure the integrity of the election!
Which he did..
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Which he did..
No! He did not and neither did SCOTUS.
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That was a nice moral high ground sidestep, but the reality is that Pence regardless of which way he went WAS singlehandedly picking a President.
Certifying a vote means there were no shenanigans, of which there were many. Pence chose to ignore them, and he did indeed pick a President.
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No! He did not and neither did SCOTUS.
They obeyed the Consitution.
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That was a nice moral high ground sidestep, but the reality is that Pence regardless of which way he went WAS singlehandedly picking a President.
Certifying a vote means there were no shenanigans, of which there were many. Pence chose to ignore them, and he did indeed pick a President.
It was over when Trump lost his 60th case. There were no shenanigans.. Pence did his duty to the Constitution first. Trump lost fair and square. Snowflake.
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They obeyed the Consitution.
Bovine fecal matter! They did no such thing.
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They obeyed the Consitution.
Bullshit. SCOTUS is the court of original jurisdiction in issues between the States, and refused to even examine the evidence in the Texas suit, which had the support of over 20 other States
They did not do their job, leaving Texas and the other States without legal recourse.
At issue was the clear violation of election rules set by non-legislative entities, in violation of the US Constitution.
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It was over when Trump lost his 60th case. There were no shenanigans.. Pence did his duty to the Constitution first. Trump lost fair and square. Snowflake.
And almost all were dismissed on standing. And you are also not the Pope, and proclamations of no shenanigans have no weight because the matter has never been investigated.
Sorry if that intrudes on your rough-tough-creampuff CNN gay bravado.
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Bullshit. SCOTUS is the court of original jurisdiction in issues between the States, and refused to even examine the evidence in the Texas suit, which had the support of over 20 other States
They did not do their job, leaving Texas and the other States without legal recourse.
At issue was the clear violation of election rules set by non-legislative entities, in violation of the US Constitution.
You wish.. He lost fair and square.. There was no evidence of Fraud.. I don't know who told you, but the fact remains, there was no proof that he was robbed. Those who are saying it are making you look like jackasses.
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And almost all were dismissed on standing. And you are also not the Pope, and proclamations of no shenanigans have no weight because the matter has never been investigated.
Sorry if that intrudes on your rough-tough-creampuff CNN gay bravado.
I don't watch CNN.. You tried and failed. Like Trump did.
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Pence's remarks are not helpful. He and Trump need to stop debating this by proxy through interviews and speeches.
The path forward is for all conservatives and Rs to close ranks in support of state-level reforms so that elections become secure and credible, and in opposition to Congressional D or DOJ attempts to stop those reforms. Furthermore all future SCOTUS nominees should be grilled thoroughly about "standing" and about the original jurisdiction of SCOTUS to hear disputes among the states.
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You wish.. He lost fair and square.. There was no evidence of Fraud.. I don't know who told you, but the fact remains, there was no proof that he was robbed. Those who are saying it are making you look like jackasses.
You ought to parse though the Election thread that night, and witness what both @Right_in_Virginia and I watched and said while the election tallies mysteriously stalled in 6 or 7 key states at about 12:30 a.m. my time.... and then suddenly starts reversing in all those states toward Biden simultaneously. It's no mystery or accident why many polls are showing that 30% of population believes this election was stolen.
To me...you are the one coming off as a jack ass, and FOS.
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You ought to parse though the Election thread that night, and witness what both @Right_in_Virginia and I watched and said while the election tallies mysteriously stalled in 6 or 7 key states at about 12:30 a.m. my time.... and then suddenly starts reversing in all those states toward Biden simultaneously. It's no mystery or accident why many polls are showing that 30% of population believes this election was stolen.
To me...you are the one coming off as a jack ass, and FOS.
You do realize that the mail-in ballots came in later. Right? I'm not the idiot who believes in Conspiracy theories.
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You do realize that the mail-in ballots came in later. Right? I'm not the idiot who believes in Conspiracy theories.
No you are just a delusional NT'er who sticks his head in the sand, believes the bullshit the MSM and Big Tech feeds him, and naively believes that election results can not be manipulated. Something happened (and it wasn't a phantom water leak) that led to all these swing states to simutaneously start reversing their result trends..... all at the same time. If you believe that this wasn't rigged..... I don't know what to say
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You wish.. He lost fair and square.. There was no evidence of Fraud.. I don't know who told you, but the fact remains, there was no proof that he was robbed. Those who are saying it are making you look like jackasses.
Well, at this point, it is largely moot. You got what you want, and you're gonna get it--good and hard.
Our military is being gutted and turned into romper room for social degenerates, if not being aimed at the people, even as we are being invaded by unprecedented swarms of foreigners at the behest of this administration. Enjoy your new police state, where federal gestapo are picking up people in the early morning for merely attending a rally while letting criminals roam free. Our currency is being inflated, our energy independence squandered, and our enemies enriched and emboldened by the amateurs in the government, even as weaknesses are exposed by the idiot in charge.
Saying Biden won? Not in my neck of the woods (82% for Trump in my county).
You broke it, you bought it. Hey. at least you tweeterites don't have to put up with all those nasty tweets.
And on the odd days when the lights are on, you can charge up your oversized golf cart and drive, well, somewhere close.
I'm no hardcore Trump fan, but I could and did see the good things he did, in spite of a less than cooperative Congress and constant attack.
But Pence will NEVER get a vote from me.
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It was over when Trump lost his 60th case. There were no shenanigans.. Pence did his duty to the Constitution first. Trump lost fair and square. Snowflake.
Why don’t you wait until the Az & Ga audits are over.
5 will get you 20 you’ll be back here mewling about how they were rigged.
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I'm no hardcore Trump fan, but I could and did see the good things he did, in spite of a less than cooperative Congress and constant attack.
But Pence will NEVER get a vote from me.
Not a Trump fan either, but I can smell a rat a mile away.
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Why don’t you wait until the Az & Ga audits are over.
5 will get you 20 you’ll be back here mewling about how they were rigged.
Someone here at TBR has a massive list of links that have iron clad and ancecdtoal proof a many many many cases of dimocratic fraudluent election tactics in '20. If they are watching, I hope they can ping Kevin Davis with that list.
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I don't watch CNN.. You tried and failed. Like Trump did.
Well you're down to playground logic.
That didn't take long.
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Someone here at TBR has a massive list of links that have iron clad and ancecdtoal proof a many many many cases of dimocratic fraudluent election tactics in '20. If they are watching, I hope they can ping Kevin Davis with that list.
Won't matter. @kevindavis and one or two other TBR kiddies aren't interested in addressing inconvenient facts, they only show up to neener-neener, and they're gone in a cloud of dust.
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They obeyed the Consitution.
@kevindavis
What part of the Constitution requires him to certify a stolen election?
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That was a nice moral high ground sidestep, but the reality is that Pence regardless of which way he went WAS singlehandedly picking a President.
Certifying a vote means there were no shenanigans, of which there were many. Pence chose to ignore them, and he did indeed pick a President.
Pence came across as a flaccid wimp January 6th, and was pail as a sheet as this unfolded He doesn't have the nads to be POTUS as far as I am concerned.
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@kevindavis
I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view. Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri. Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit. SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”
If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?
So, here we are. I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways. But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath. We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything. And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit.
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@kevindavis
I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view. Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri. Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit. SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”
If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?
So, here we are. I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways. But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath. We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything. And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit.
Correct in every detail! You can read it for yourself here (https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163215/20201209144840609_2020-12-09%20-%20Texas%20v.%20Pennsylvania%20-%20Amicus%20Brief%20of%20Missouri%20et%20al.%20-%20Final%20with%20Tables.pdf)
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Correct in every detail! You can read it for yourself here (https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/22/22O155/163215/20201209144840609_2020-12-09%20-%20Texas%20v.%20Pennsylvania%20-%20Amicus%20Brief%20of%20Missouri%20et%20al.%20-%20Final%20with%20Tables.pdf)
Thanks for the link!
Exactly. Unfathomable to me that SCOTUS rejected the case. Where else is a State to turn?
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That was a nice moral high ground sidestep, but the reality is that Pence regardless of which way he went WAS singlehandedly picking a President.
Certifying a vote means there were no shenanigans, of which there were many. Pence chose to ignore them, and he did indeed pick a President.
The only thing Pence had the authority to certify was arithmetic adding up to at least 270. The votes were certified by the states, and that is where the fault lies for tolerating shenanigans.
To argue otherwise implies that the Constitution empowers the President of the Senate, who is frequently a candidate for POTUS or VP, to influence how the EVs are counted in his own election, and it implies that a Federal official could unilaterally refuse to accept a certified state outcome. No one believes either is a good idea or what the founders or authors of later statues intended and there is no basis for either idea anywhere in the Constitution or later statutes. But a Federal Official throwing out a state result might be exactly the kind of Federal takeover of elections the Ds are pushing for.
It was unforgivably stupid for Pence to say he was proud of what he did. He should have said simply that he had no authority to do anything else, and that he fully supports state-level reform efforts to restore security and credibility to elections. FWIW I won't be casting any votes for him in the future either.
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The only thing Pence had the authority to certify was arithmetic adding up to at least 270. The votes were certified by the states, and that is where the fault lies for tolerating shenanigans.
To argue otherwise implies that the Constitution empowers the President of the Senate, who is frequently a candidate for POTUS or VP, to influence how the EVs are counted in his own election, and it implies that a Federal official could unilaterally refuse to accept a certified state outcome. No one believes either is a good idea or what the founders or authors of later statues intended and there is no basis for either idea anywhere in the Constitution or later statutes. But a Federal Official throwing out a state result might be exactly the kind of Federal takeover of elections the Ds are pushing for.
It was unforgivably stupid for Pence to say he was proud of what he did. He should have said simply that he had no authority to do anything else, and that he fully supports state-level reform efforts to restore security and credibility to elections. FWIW I won't be casting any votes for him in the future either.
I share your viewpoint. Every word of it.
The failure occurred with the Roberts SCOTUS.
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@kevindavis
I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view. Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri. Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit. SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”
If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?
So, here we are. I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways. But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath. We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything. And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit.
Extremely well-stated @Lando Lincoln. SCOTUS abdicated its duty and the country is being harmed as a result. Their decision reduces Presidential elections to whatever patchwork quilt of stunts local D officials are able to get away with, rather than credible expressions of the people's will for the Chief Executive office.
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Extremely well-stated @Lando Lincoln. SCOTUS abdicated its duty and the country is being harmed as a result. Their decision reduces Presidential elections to whatever patchwork quilt of stunts local D officials are able to get away with, rather than credible expressions of the people's will for the Chief Executive office.
And further, malicious management of a Presidential election in one state can subvert or negate the results of another. Seems to be a "cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections”, judicial, Constitutionally and otherwise.
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I share your viewpoint. Every word of it.
The failure occurred with the Roberts SCOTUS.
@Lando Lincoln
That's the sort of thing you can expect when you have a homo president who is raging alcoholic and PROBABLY a closeted child molester nominate and seat one of his "Play Pals".
I know this will make heads explode,and nothing could make me happier that to state the obvious,which is that Bush and Biden are freaking interchangeable because there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between them.
Well,Biden MAY be slightly more moral. At least he doesn't wave a Bible around and try to pretend he is righteous.
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You ought to parse though the Election thread that night, and witness what both @Right_in_Virginia and I watched and said while the election tallies mysteriously stalled in 6 or 7 key states at about 12:30 a.m. my time.... and then suddenly starts reversing in all those states toward Biden simultaneously. It's no mystery or accident why many polls are showing that 30% of population believes this election was stolen.
To me...you are the one coming off as a jack ass, and FOS.
:thumbsup:
Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered. There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized what they were doing when they "stopped counting".
In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead. We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump. Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting". --- My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.
Just one example ... Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting" --- and started stealing ---
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmPQ7joVgAMccpQ.jpg)
It was a hell of a night, Catfish.
@kevindavis
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'I will always be proud that we did our part on that tragic day to reconvene the Congress and fulfilled our duty under the Constitution and the laws of the United States,' Pence said.
You stopped objections. Let me repeat this: You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required.
I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.
Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.
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You stopped objections. Let me repeat this: You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required.
I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.
Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.
Amen!!
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You stopped objections. Let me repeat this: You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required.
False.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-democrats-object-more-states-2016-republicans-2020-1561407
https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/07/954380156/here-are-the-republicans-who-objected-to-the-electoral-college-count
https://ballotpedia.org/Counting_of_electoral_votes_(January_6-7,_2021)
https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Electoral_College_vote_count
The only states for which Senators submitted written objections were Arizona and Pennsylvania. Since House members had also submitted written objections for these states, in both instances the Joint Session adjourned to separate sessions of each chamber, in accord with the Electoral Count Act of 1887.
The demonstration occurred during the consideration of the objections to AZ's EVs in each chamber; the objections to PA's EVs took place in each chamber after the Joint Session re-convened when the demonstration had been cleared.
Please cite a reference for the assertion that written objections from members of both chambers were ignored.
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:thumbsup:
Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered. There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized what they were doing when they "stopped counting".
In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead. We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump. Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting". --- My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.
Just one example ... Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting" --- and started stealing ---
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmPQ7joVgAMccpQ.jpg)
It was a hell of a night, Catfish.
@Right_in_Virginia @catfish1957
Count me as a fellow watcher that night,who ended up going to bed convinced that Trump had won because he was so far ahead there was no logical way to catch him.
Then the vote counting stopped.
People should be hanged in public over this.
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You stopped objections. Let me repeat this: You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required.
I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.
Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.
@Right_in_Virginia
Better yet,take a long walk off a short pier.
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Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.
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Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
It's also hard to believe that an illegal alien who grew up in a Muslim household and who was fathered by a Kenyan could become president too,but it happened.
Not to mention a totally amoral draft-dodger.
Or the alcoholic homosexual son of a father who was one of our lousiest Presidents.
Or a senile professional criminal.
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Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.
No one expected --- or asked --- Pence to overturn the election. Everyone understood Pence served as a bookkeeper on January 6. He was simply asked to uphold the Electors Clause of the Constitution and the law regulating the recording of electoral tallies in the Congress.
Pence broke with the Electors Clause of the US Constitution by denying state legislators their right to submit legally tallied electors when he denied their request for 10 days to review how the electors were tallied. -- Remember @Weird Tolkienish Figure the only unmovable date for Presidential elections is set in the Constitution: January 20 at noon of the year following the election. January 6 is an arbitrary date set by Congress --- Cruz even gave the VP additional cover (if the Constitution isn't enough) by also requesting a 10 day review period, which Pence also ignored.
Pence then broke with his legal requirement under "3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress" which states: "Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections ...". When the Congress reconvened, Pence --- without legal basis or precedent --- stopped all objections and went on to record tallies he knew were in question and would have been challenged.
Pence did nothing noble on January 6. He threw a middle finger at the Constitution, 3 U.S.Code § 15 and every citizen of the United States.
He should not be defended; Pence should be shunned.
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@Right_in_Virginia
Better yet,take a long walk off a short pier.
I could live with that @sneakypete happy77
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@Weird Tolkienish Figure
It's also hard to believe that an illegal alien who grew up in a Muslim household and who was fathered by a Kenyan could become president too,but it happened.
Not to mention a totally amoral draft-dodger.
Or the alcoholic homosexual son of a father who was one of our lousiest Presidents.
Or a senile professional criminal.
Sad profiling POTUS of the past 20 years, versus the 1st 20 years of the Republic.
Honor, integrity, and common good meant something back then. I mean is this the best we can do?
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Sad profiling POTUS of the past 20 years, versus the 1st 20 years of the Republic.
Honor, integrity, and common good meant something back then. I mean is this the best we can do?
@catfish1957
No,but it WILL be the best we ARE doing for as long as we remain so complainant that we just can't be bothered to do better.
Our nation is compromised to the point of collapse and destruction,and we have nobody to blame but ourselves because the majority of us just can't be bothered with spending our free time on something as boring as politics.
The opportunists and the self-centered will continue to destroy our nation as long as there is profit/power in it for them,and we let them do it with no consequences.
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:thumbsup:
Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered. There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized what they were doing when they "stopped counting".
In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead. We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump. Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting". --- My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.
Just one example ... Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting" --- and started stealing ---
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmPQ7joVgAMccpQ.jpg)
It was a hell of a night, Catfish.
@kevindavis
It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.
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It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.
This time the Democrats had a back-up plan. I am convinced that all the various forms of fraud were present for Hillary, too. There was the glowing run--up to the election in the MSM, replete with polls that sure seemed skewed from out here in flyover country.
And I think the fix was in, but the Democrats underestimated the resonance Trump found with ordinary, workaday Americans, his ability to harness the frustration with (and even anger toward) a government that has been seriously out of touch with its employers, and there just wasn't enough margin set to prevail.
They got the points spread wrong, and she lost, despite their efforts.
Not this time.
This time, they'd done their homework, and knew which States (with lagging counts) would have to be 'converted' to win, so they shut down those states, re-did the tabulation algorithms, and proceeded to do what Democrats do when they don't have a marketable idea--cheat. And cheat they did.
I have little doubt that (so far, anyway) that is the crime of the century, (not far behind the murderous responses to COVID), but still yet to tally all its fruits.
I do not know what the solution is, but the problem is clear.
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No one expected --- or asked --- Pence to overturn the election. Everyone understood Pence served as a bookkeeper on January 6. He was simply asked to uphold the Electors Clause of the Constitution and the law regulating the recording of electoral tallies in the Congress.
Pence broke with the Electors Clause of the US Constitution by denying state legislators their right to submit legally tallied electors when he denied their request for 10 days to review how the electors were tallied. -- Remember @Weird Tolkienish Figure the only unmovable date for Presidential elections is set in the Constitution: January 20 at noon of the year following the election. January 6 is an arbitrary date set by Congress --- Cruz even gave the VP additional cover (if the Constitution isn't enough) by also requesting a 10 day review period, which Pence also ignored.
Pence then broke with his legal requirement under "3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress" which states: "Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections ...". When the Congress reconvened, Pence --- without legal basis or precedent --- stopped all objections and went on to record tallies he knew were in question and would have been challenged.
Pence did nothing noble on January 6. He threw a middle finger at the Constitution, 3 U.S.Code § 15 and every citizen of the United States.
He should not be defended; Pence should be shunned.
@Right_in_Virginia consistently ignores the fact that the electoral votes counted during the Joint Session of Congress beginning January 6 2021 had all been certified by the respective states, and furthermore all states except Wisconsin had certified their results before the "safe harbor deadline" of December 8 2020, which legally obligated Congress to accept the state's electoral votes. Whether or not we like the procedures used by each of the states, each state's results were certified in accord with its own state law, hence the electors for each state in fact were selected in a "Manner which the Legislature thereof [did] direct." I agree with many that some of those results should not have been certified, but in fact they were.
Furthermore Right_in_Virginia continues to ignore the obvious fact that the position she advocates would enable Democrat state legislators, acting with no official authority other than their titles, to recall certified electoral votes for Republican candidates on any manufactured fictional pretense or even no pretense at all. And everyone who reads this board knows that Democrat state legislators would do exactly that.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447849.html#msg2447849
Right_in_Virginia consistently fails to cite any Constitutional or statutory justification for the idea that a request by state legislators to return the electoral votes of their states can be considered. Neither the Twelfth Amendment nor the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887 provides for such a request or even mentions it as a possibility, not when requested as a legal act of the entire state legislature and certainly not when requested by smaller groups of legislators. Nor is any authority given to the President of the Senate to act on any such requests.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447974.html#msg2447974
Right_in_Virginia continues a false account of the actual events of the Joint Session of Congress, maintaining that no objections to state electoral votes were allowed once Congress re-convened after the demonstration; in fact contemporaneous media reports prove that objections to PA's electoral votes were raised and fully considered after Congress re-convened.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447967.html#msg2447967
Each of these points has already been made to Right_in_Virginia; she has completely failed to rebut any of them and merely repeats her erroneous premises and fallacious conclusions. Her continued insistence on a theory supported by neither Constitution nor statute, which would set a disastrous political precedent and is based in part on a counter-factual narrative, simply creates confusion. Her position on this subject should be actively rejected as often as she presents it.
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It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.
That was my observation as well. What I remember most clearly is remarking to my son, a first-time voter, that Michigan had gone for Trump by a significant margin with only Red counties remaining to report; yet the next day Michigan was Blue. Apparently we are to believe all those Red counties reported in late votes with overwhelming Blue majorities.
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What confirmed the reality of the situation for me was a post right here by our good friend @massadvj. He essentially stated, “We are witnessing the theft of an American Presidential election.”
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Here is the observant and prescient post by @massadvj:
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,418946.msg2318539.html#msg2318539
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Well, at this point, it is largely moot. You got what you want, and you're gonna get it--good and hard.
Our military is being gutted and turned into romper room for social degenerates, if not being aimed at the people, even as we are being invaded by unprecedented swarms of foreigners at the behest of this administration. Enjoy your new police state, where federal gestapo are picking up people in the early morning for merely attending a rally while letting criminals roam free. Our currency is being inflated, our energy independence squandered, and our enemies enriched and emboldened by the amateurs in the government, even as weaknesses are exposed by the idiot in charge.
Saying Biden won? Not in my neck of the woods (82% for Trump in my county).
You broke it, you bought it. Hey. at least you tweeterites don't have to put up with all those nasty tweets.
And on the odd days when the lights are on, you can charge up your oversized golf cart and drive, well, somewhere close.
I'm no hardcore Trump fan, but I could and did see the good things he did, in spite of a less than cooperative Congress and constant attack.
But Pence will NEVER get a vote from me.
Why cause he obeyed the Constitution????
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Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.
:amen: :amen: :amen:
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Here is the observant and prescient post by @massadvj:
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,418946.msg2318539.html#msg2318539
Thanks @Lando Lincoln , yes @massadvj called it well.
For many years the Ds held out totals from urban areas in order to submit adequate results to tip state results their way; 2020 was the first time we saw them do it in obvious, simultaneous collusion from multiple states.
And of course the established media continues to cover for them with a gaslighting campaign.
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@Right_in_Virginia consistently ignores the fact that the electoral votes counted during the Joint Session of Congress beginning January 6 2021 had all been certified by the respective states, and furthermore all states except Wisconsin had certified their results before the "safe harbor deadline" of December 8 2020, which legally obligated Congress to accept the state's electoral votes. Whether or not we like the procedures used by each of the states, each state's results were certified in accord with its own state law, hence the electors for each state in fact were selected in a "Manner which the Legislature thereof [did] direct." I agree with many that some of those results should not have been certified, but in fact they were.
Furthermore Right_in_Virginia continues to ignore the obvious fact that the position she advocates would enable Democrat state legislators, acting with no official authority other than their titles, to recall certified electoral votes for Republican candidates on any manufactured fictional pretense or even no pretense at all. And everyone who reads this board knows that Democrat state legislators would do exactly that.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447849.html#msg2447849
Right_in_Virginia consistently fails to cite any Constitutional or statutory justification for the idea that a request by state legislators to return the electoral votes of their states can be considered. Neither the Twelfth Amendment nor the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887 provides for such a request or even mentions it as a possibility, not when requested as a legal act of the entire state legislature and certainly not when requested by smaller groups of legislators. Nor is any authority given to the President of the Senate to act on any such requests.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447974.html#msg2447974
Right_in_Virginia continues a false account of the actual events of the Joint Session of Congress, maintaining that no objections to state electoral votes were allowed once Congress re-convened after the demonstration; in fact contemporaneous media reports prove that objections to PA's electoral votes were raised and fully considered after Congress re-convened.
https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447967.html#msg2447967
Each of these points has already been made to Right_in_Virginia; she has completely failed to rebut any of them and merely repeats her erroneous premises and fallacious conclusions. Her continued insistence on a theory supported by neither Constitution nor statute, which would set a disastrous political precedent and is based in part on a counter-factual narrative, simply creates confusion. Her position on this subject should be actively rejected as often as she presents it.
@Right_in_Virginia cited the law correctly in the part you quoted @HoustonSam you have a problem. Do you, like Pence, have a problem with following the law?
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@Right_in_Virginia cited the law correctly in the part you quoted @HoustonSam you have a problem. Do you, like Pence, have a problem with following the law?
I make the same offer to you @Bigun that I've made to @Right_in_Virginia : simply cite the specific provision of the Twelfth Amendment, or of the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887, or of the Code of Federal Regulations, that empowers state legislators to recall the certified, state-sealed electoral votes submitted by their states. "Cite" does not mean tell me which part of the Constitution or later statutes or CFR describes how the EVs are counted, it means show where any of these documents actually say that state legislators can recall the votes submitted by their states. Merely repeating "Electors Clause" or indicating a CFR Chapter Number is misrepresentation.
Actual text please, not your pet Penumbras and Emanations.
And while you're at it perhaps you can explain how a Conservative Federalist advocates the authority of a Federal official to overturn the act of a state.
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I make the same offer to you @Bigun that I've made to @Right_in_Virginia : simply cite the specific provision of the Twelfth Amendment, or of the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887, or of the Code of Federal Regulations, that empowers state legislators to recall the certified, state-sealed electoral votes submitted by their states. "Cite" does not mean tell me which part of the Constitution or later statutes or CFR describes how the EVs are counted, it means show where any of these documents actually say that state legislators can recall the votes submitted by their states. Merely repeating "Electors Clause" or indicating a CFR Chapter Number is misrepresentation.
Actual text please, not your pet Penumbras and Emanations.
And while you're at it perhaps you can explain how a Conservative Federalist advocates the authority of a Federal official to overturn the act of a state.
Ha Ha! MY pet Penumbras and Emanations indeed! Physician heal thyself!
And BTW @HoustonSam your sophistry is unbecoming. The PROPER constitutionally mandated people of states should have been allowed to act. I.E. the legislatures.
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Ha Ha! MY pet Penumbras and Emanations indeed! Physician heal thyself!
Funny, I don't see any cites to actual text here.
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Ha Ha! MY pet Penumbras and Emanations indeed! Physician heal thyself!
And BTW @HoustonSam your sophistry is unbecoming. The PROPER constitutionally mandated people of states should have been allowed to act. I.E. the legislatures.
You know I still can't find your cites to the actual text of any legal document. "Should have been allowed to act" is nothing more than your opinion - whether Penumbra or Emanation you can decide.
Furthermore even your opinion mis-states what actually happened. Not a single legislature made any attempt to recall EVs. Legislators made the attempts, not legislatures. You can prove me wrong here by citing even one resolution or act passed by any state legislature to recall EVs from Congress. Members of the PA House introduced such a resolution, but it went nowhere.
I'm afraid @Bigun you've wandered into the wrong room. Around here we believe in what the law actually says, not what someone wishes it said, and we're very particular about federal officials overturning what states have done, even when those states got it completely wrong.
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All you guys need to stop throwing rocks at each other over this. It is a done deal,and there is not a damn thing any of you can do about it but gloat if you are a RINO that hates Bad Orange Man because he has bad manners.
If you hate Pence for being a gutless weasel hoping to be repaid with a Presidential nomination,all you can do is kick your dog and call your neighbors names. The FACT that he is never going to be the President is irrelevant to anyone but him. What IS relevant is that he sold his soul for the promise of power,and what he did is a done deal that will NOT be undone by anyone with the power to do anything about it. And even THAT is ASSUMING that someone DOES have that power.
Even to try would almost certainly lead to open revolt and Americans killing each other in the streets,and nobody from any side wants to see this happen if possible.
Once again,done deal. You can NOT unring a bell,and this one quit pealing a long time ago.
Those of you who are RINO's or leftists should focus on different methods of suicide,and those of you who supported Trump need to focus on getting Trump elected and holding his feet to the fire to make sure he does his best to restore America to ACTUAL Constitutional law,as opposed to the "Constitutional Law" the Dims seem to pull out of cereal boxes.
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Post of the day, @sneakypete
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All you guys need to stop throwing rocks at each other over this. It is a done deal,and there is not a damn thing any of you can do about it but gloat if you are a RINO that hates Bad Orange Man because he has bad manners.
If you hate Pence for being a gutless weasel hoping to be repaid with a Presidential nomination,all you can do is kick your dog and call your neighbors names. The FACT that he is never going to be the President is irrelevant to anyone but him. What IS relevant is that he sold his soul for the promise of power,and what he did is a done deal that will NOT be undone by anyone with the power to do anything about it. And even THAT is ASSUMING that someone DOES have that power.
Even to try would almost certainly lead to open revolt and Americans killing each other in the streets,and nobody from any side wants to see this happen if possible.
Once again,done deal. You can NOT unring a bell,and this one quit pealing a long time ago.
Those of you who are RINO's or leftists should focus on different methods of suicide,and those of you who supported Trump need to focus on getting Trump elected and holding his feet to the fire to make sure he does his best to restore America to ACTUAL Constitutional law,as opposed to the "Constitutional Law" the Dims seem to pull out of cereal boxes.
@sneakypete
:thumbsup:
Maybe the site should order some of these (https://i.imgur.com/fPtRJDW.jpg?1)
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All you guys need to stop throwing rocks at each other over this. It is a done deal,and there is not a damn thing any of you can do about it but gloat if you are a RINO that hates Bad Orange Man because he has bad manners.
If you hate Pence for being a gutless weasel hoping to be repaid with a Presidential nomination,all you can do is kick your dog and call your neighbors names. The FACT that he is never going to be the President is irrelevant to anyone but him. What IS relevant is that he sold his soul for the promise of power,and what he did is a done deal that will NOT be undone by anyone with the power to do anything about it. And even THAT is ASSUMING that someone DOES have that power.
Even to try would almost certainly lead to open revolt and Americans killing each other in the streets,and nobody from any side wants to see this happen if possible.
Once again,done deal. You can NOT unring a bell,and this one quit pealing a long time ago.
Those of you who are RINO's or leftists should focus on different methods of suicide,and those of you who supported Trump need to focus on getting Trump elected and holding his feet to the fire to make sure he does his best to restore America to ACTUAL Constitutional law,as opposed to the "Constitutional Law" the Dims seem to pull out of cereal boxes.
Good post @sneakypete .... Except I don't think this debate is about unringing a bell.
After all that's happened, hearing Pence preach he didn't choose to help install Biden -- when he did -- and that he's proud of his actions, is really tough to take. His lying claims cannot go unanswered.
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Mike Pence - yet another 2016 Donald Trump Establishment sellout. He should have chosen someone who was already actively trying to drain the swamp instead of selling out to Priebus and his cadre.
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Post of the day, @sneakypete
:yowsa: @sneakypete makes me question the point of conversing with anyone on the internet at all. All it does is wastes my time and pisses off the pigs.
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:amen: :amen: :amen:
Imo this is the right wings version of wokeness.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/4tim8a.jpg)
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:yowsa: @sneakypete makes me question the point of conversing with anyone on the internet at all. All it does is wastes my time and pisses off the pigs.
On the other hand there are more than a few who enjoy reading and value what you have to say, @Bigun hope you keep it up.
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On the other hand there are more than a few who enjoy reading and value what you have to say, @Bigun hope you keep it up.
:yowsa:
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Same offer to you @libertybele , all you have to do is cite the specific provision in the law that authorizes the President of the Senate to send back certified, state-sealed EVs on the request of state legislators. You get to choose from the Twelfth Amendment, the Electoral Count Act of 1887, and Title 3 of the US Code of Federal Regulations. With all this law to choose from, surely it's in there somewhere.
So far no one has accepted my offer; @Bigun and @Right_in_Virginia both punted. Maybe you'll do better.
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I had submitted this info in a prior post. The fact remains that Pence DID NOT call for any objections; meanwhile Cruz and Hawley had taken the appropriate avenues to do just that. They were ignored and the objections were never heard nor recognized. Pence went ahead and certified the EV's anyways.
Not saying that Pence had the authority to send the EV's back to the state but he absolutely had the authority and in fact duty to call for objections. It would have been up to Congress to settle upon any objections. Congress never got the chance to settle or vote on any objections because Pence never called for any objections.
Would it have changed anything perhaps not, but Pence gave up that chance. Traitor? That's how I see him.
3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting electoral votes in Congress
U.S. Code
Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections, if any. Every objection shall be made in writing, and shall state clearly and concisely, and without argument, the ground thereof, and shall be signed by at least one Senator and one Member of the House of Representatives before the same shall be received.
----------------------------
In reference to what Cruz was trying to also accomplish he said that there should be an election commission made of five senators, five representatives and five Supreme Court justices to “to conduct an emergency 10-day audit of the election returns in the disputed states.” He models this commission after the one created following the disputed 1876 election and sets the timeline so the audit can be completed before inauguration day on January 20.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/verify/verify-what-happens-congress-member-objects-election-results/507-3e654439-9b05-4c2e-a18c-0e8f8b413e28
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I had submitted this info in a prior post. The fact remains that Pence DID NOT call for any objections; meanwhile Cruz and Hawley had taken the appropriate avenues to do just that. They were ignored and the objections were never heard nor recognized. Pence went ahead and certified the EV's anyways.
I've already proven upthread in reply #36 that this is not true :
False.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-democrats-object-more-states-2016-republicans-2020-1561407
https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/07/954380156/here-are-the-republicans-who-objected-to-the-electoral-college-count
https://ballotpedia.org/Counting_of_electoral_votes_(January_6-7,_2021)
https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Electoral_College_vote_count
The only states for which Senators submitted written objections were Arizona and Pennsylvania. Since House members had also submitted written objections for these states, in both instances the Joint Session adjourned to separate sessions of each chamber, in accord with the Electoral Count Act of 1887.
The demonstration occurred during the consideration of the objections to AZ's EVs in each chamber; the objections to PA's EVs took place in each chamber after the Joint Session re-convened when the demonstration had been cleared.
Please cite a reference for the assertion that written objections from members of both chambers were ignored.
Five independent media accounts and summaries all agree that the only states for which any Senator submitted an objection were AZ and PA, and both were heard. Not a single item of evidence has been submitted here by anyone to document the assertion that Pence ignored properly-written objections. It is not true that Pence failed to call for objections. Where did you hear that anyway?
In reference to what Cruz was trying to also accomplish he said that there should be an election commission made of five senators, five representatives and five Supreme Court justices to “to conduct an emergency 10-day audit of the election returns in the disputed states.” He models this commission after the one created following the disputed 1876 election and sets the timeline so the audit can be completed before inauguration day on January 20.
Cruz's suggested 10 day audit died for lack of support among Republicans. Pence had nothing to do with that.
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Cruz's suggested 10 day audit died for lack of support among Republicans. Pence had nothing to do with that.
The Republican Party as a whole was willing to let the Dems steal the election in order to rid themselves of the interloper, Donald Trump. Having absolute control at the national level of the entire GOP Party is THE Number One goal. And with Donald Trump in the White House, that was a big obstacle towards their goal.
Ted Cruz understood this more than anyone. You think that things are bad now? Just wait until the 2022 elections. The RSCC is already running Senate ads in Georgia against Rafael Warnock, a candidate they could have easily defeated in 2020 if they hadn't cut deals with Democrats overturning election rules.
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The Republican Party as a whole was willing to let the Dems steal the election in order to rid themselves of the interloper, Donald Trump. Having absolute control at the national level of the entire GOP Party is THE Number One goal. And with Donald Trump in the White House, that was a big obstacle towards their goal.
Ted Cruz understood this more than anyone. You think that things are bad now? Just wait until the 2022 elections. The RSCC is already running Senate ads in Georgia against Rafael Warnock, a candidate they could have easily defeated in 2020 if they hadn't cut deals with Democrats overturning election rules.
As of now I won't be voting in the 2022 election. The next steal is already in. Why bother?
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(https://i.imgflip.com/4tim8a.jpg)
Mike Pence is NO TRAITOR!!! Stop it with this Bulls**t FFS!
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Mike Pence is NO TRAITOR!!! Stop it with this Bulls**t FFS!
Mike Pence is a milquetoast politician who has risen as far as he is going to go. He might as well head on down to K street and cash in as his kind usually does.
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Mike Pence is a milquetoast politician who has risen as far as he is going to go. He might as well head on down to K street and cash in as his kind usually does.
That's about as well as it can be said @skeeter :amen:
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Mike Pence is a milquetoast politician who has risen as far as he is going to go. He might as well head on down to K street and cash in as his kind usually does.
I tend to agree with this; I can't imagine supporting Pence for national office should he attempt a run. However it is completely irrelevant to the assertion that he had authority to return EVs to states or that he refused to consider properly documented objections during the EV count.
The loudest voices of invective against Pence here have completely failed to provide a single reference in any legal document for the claim that the President of the Senate has authority to return EVs to states. Furthermore multiple, independent sources prove that properly-documented objections were considered fully during the Joint Session of Congress to count the EVs; no reference has been provided for the contrary, repeated assertion that Pence ignored properly-documented objections. The "argument" that Pence is some kind of traitor is entirely without basis and frequently rests on nothing more than hysterical ranting.
Apparently some find it cathartic to malign Pence's character; retreating to personal insults simply concedes that there is no basis for the assertions made here and in other threads about his authority during the count or his oversight of the joint session. While this subject is beyond tiresome, as long as these myopic, distorted, ignorant, and disproven positions are posted, they should be called out for what they are.
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I tend to agree with this; I can't imagine supporting Pence for national office should he attempt a run. However it is completely irrelevant to the assertion that he had authority to return EVs to states or that he refused to consider properly documented objections during the EV count.
The loudest voices of invective against Pence here have completely failed to provide a single reference in any legal document for the claim that the President of the Senate has authority to return EVs to states. Furthermore multiple, independent sources prove that properly-documented objections were considered fully during the Joint Session of Congress to count the EVs; no reference has been provided for the contrary, repeated assertion that Pence ignored properly-documented objections. The "argument" that Pence is some kind of traitor is entirely without basis and frequently rests on nothing more than hysterical ranting.
Apparently some find it cathartic to malign Pence's character; retreating to personal insults simply concedes that there is no basis for the assertions made here and in other threads about his authority during the count or his oversight of the joint session. While this subject is beyond tiresome, as long as these myopic, distorted, ignorant, and disproven positions are posted, they should be called out for what they are.
Please direct your complaints on that score to those making the assertions, as I have kept my thoughts on the matter to myself.
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Please direct your complaints on that score to those making the assertions, as I have kept my thoughts on the matter to myself.
Consider it an open letter, and please accept my apologies for catching you in the collateral damage.
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Consider it an open letter, and please accept my apologies for catching you in the collateral damage.
No problemo. IMO this issue is just one of those things. All the sound & fury in the world ain't gonna change the reality of it.
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No problemo. IMO this issue is just one of those things. All the sound & fury in the world ain't gonna change the reality of it.
Exactly right. My ire lies with the Robert’s Court but that ain’t worth anything either. It still was, still is regardless of my foot stomping.
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Exactly right. My ire lies with the Robert’s Court but that ain’t worth anything either. It still was, still is regardless of my foot stomping.
Impotent rage pretty sums up my entire existence these past months. I gotta get better at coping.
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Mike Pence is NO TRAITOR!!! Stop it with this Bulls**t FFS!
You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.
I didn't like the guy from the very beginning nor did I trust him and felt Trump made a huge mistake in selecting him as his VP.
Obviously he has his eyes on 2024 and he definitely won't get my vote.
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Exactly right. My ire lies with the Robert’s Court but that ain’t worth anything either. It still was, still is regardless of my foot stomping.
You are correct and unfortunately because of "Robert's Court" we are watching our Republic crumble.
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I tend to agree with this; I can't imagine supporting Pence for national office should he attempt a run. However it is completely irrelevant to the assertion that he had authority to return EVs to states or that he refused to consider properly documented objections during the EV count.
The loudest voices of invective against Pence here have completely failed to provide a single reference in any legal document for the claim that the President of the Senate has authority to return EVs to states. Furthermore multiple, independent sources prove that properly-documented objections were considered fully during the Joint Session of Congress to count the EVs; no reference has been provided for the contrary, repeated assertion that Pence ignored properly-documented objections. The "argument" that Pence is some kind of traitor is entirely without basis and frequently rests on nothing more than hysterical ranting.
Apparently some find it cathartic to malign Pence's character; retreating to personal insults simply concedes that there is no basis for the assertions made here and in other threads about his authority during the count or his oversight of the joint session. While this subject is beyond tiresome, as long as these myopic, distorted, ignorant, and disproven positions are posted, they should be called out for what they are.
You are correct. I don't like Pence and never have. I have never trusted him. Perhaps I have judged him unfairly and certainly will admit that it is strictly my opinion and gut feeling about the man. @SamHouston I agree the subject of EV's has been exhausted, so I will refrain from further pitching this issue back and forth -- yes many articles support what you have stated and I have been unable to find the video again that I saw that supported my claim.
Further, if there was anything that I stated that you saw as a personal insult to you, that certainly was not my intent.
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You are correct and unfortunately because of "Robert's Court" we are watching our Republic crumble.
I see my smart phone added an apostrophe to Roberts. Ha!
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I see my smart phone added an apostrophe to Roberts. Ha!
I knew exactly what you meant and didn't catch the apostrophe issue till you just now pointed it out. At any rate I feel the same ire, frustration and sadness. God help this country!
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Impotent rage pretty sums up my entire existence these past months. I gotta get better at coping.
Part of my rage is that Mike Pence thinks the Americans who reelected Trump are just going to forget that he grabbed the keys to the democrat getaway car and drove it across the finish line --- with a combination of forethought and malice. Pence is counting on us being this stupid, this easily diverted.
So, as long as coping doesn't mean forgetting --- I'm with you on this @skeeter
I will cope with Pence until and if the time comes to remind him with my vote and wallet that he will not see the inside of the Oval Office again --- nevermind reside in it --- in his lifetime.
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Part of my rage is that Mike Pence thinks the Americans who reelected Trump are just going to forget that he grabbed the keys to the democrat getaway car and drove it across the finish line --- with a combination of forethought and malice. Pence is counting on us being this stupid, this easily diverted.
So, as long as coping doesn't mean forgetting --- I'm with you on this @skeeter
I’ll never forget this past year, nor will I forget where everyone stood when it mattered.
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Part of my rage is that Mike Pence thinks the Americans who reelected Trump are just going to forget that he grabbed the keys to the democrat getaway car and drove it across the finish line --- with a combination of forethought and malice. Pence is counting on us being this stupid, this easily diverted.
So, as long as coping doesn't mean forgetting --- I'm with you on this @skeeter
I will cope with Pence until and if the time comes to remind him with my vote and wallet that he will not see the inside of the Oval Office again --- nevermind reside in it --- in his lifetime.
To think that people attacked Trump relentlessly for his lack of character to me is almost laughable. Coping with Pence? Well, I just don't happen to like his character and he will never get my vote. Not going to happen.
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Further, if there was anything that I stated that you saw as a personal insult to you, that certainly was not my intent.
@libertybele I've never seen you say anything insulting about anyone on TBR. You and I might disagree on things but IMO we have no cause of enmity between us. I hope you can see it the same way.
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Mike Pence is NO TRAITOR!!! Stop it with this Bulls**t FFS!
@kevindavis
Ok,how about he is a floater in the septic tank of politics?
Is that any better?
ALL he had to do was have the stones to refuse to certify an obviously stolen election,and this weasel decided to side with his long-time political cohorts instead of the People and the Constitution.
He is a weasel and a pox on humanity.
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@libertybele I've never seen you say anything insulting about anyone on TBR. You and I might disagree on things but IMO we have no cause of enmity between us. I hope you can see it the same way.
:beer:
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As of now I won't be voting in the 2022 election. The next steal is already in. Why bother?
This is exactly why this “election was stolen bs” is so dangerous and counterprocductive.
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This is exactly why this “election was stolen bs” is so dangerous and counterprocductive.
Votes being counted days after the election and the counting of votes stopped on election night, among other things is certainly suspect.
So the true danger IS that people actually believe that we got a fair election.
The DEMS tried stealing the election in FL during the mid terms. So ... what's changed and what systems have the RNC and GOP put in place to ensure a fair election???
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Votes being counted days after the election and the counting of votes stopped on election night, among other things is certainly suspect.
So the true danger IS that people actually believe that we got a fair election.
The DEMS tried stealing the election in FL during the mid terms. So ... what's changed and what systems have the RNC and GOP put in place to ensure a fair election???
None of which adddressed my main point.
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Votes being counted days after the election and the counting of votes stopped on election night, among other things is certainly suspect.
So the true danger IS that people actually believe that we got a fair election.
A look at who's telling us 'nothing to see here' is all I need to know whats what.
Pretending there's nothing wrong is a virtual guarantee the fraud will not only continue but will accelerate.
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Votes being counted days after the election and the counting of votes stopped on election night, among other things is certainly suspect.
So the true danger IS that people actually believe that we got a fair election.
The DEMS tried stealing the election in FL during the mid terms. So ... what's changed and what systems have the RNC and GOP put in place to ensure a fair election???
For the last time, they were counting mail-in votes....
Here is the #1 true fact:
Trump lost to Sleepy Joe Biden fair and square. Maybe if Trump ran a better campaign he would have won especially in Georgia and Arizona.
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For the last time, they were counting mail-in votes....
Here is the #1 true fact:
Trump lost to Sleepy Joe Biden fair and square. Maybe if Trump ran a better campaign he would have won especially in Georgia and Arizona.
Sure He ran such a crappy campaign he gained 12 million voters over 2016. And that with the fraud.
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For the last time, they were counting mail-in votes....
Here is the #1 true fact:
Trump lost to Sleepy Joe Biden fair and square. Maybe if Trump ran a better campaign he would have won especially in Georgia and Arizona.
Well, your facts are far different than mine @kevindavis End of discussion.
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Sure He ran such a crappy campaign he gained 12 million voters over 2016. And that with the fraud.
He did but he motivated more people to vote against him than for him. He got lucky with Hillary.
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For the last time, they were counting mail-in votes....
Here is the #1 true fact:
Trump lost to Sleepy Joe Biden fair and square. Maybe if Trump ran a better campaign he would have won especially in Georgia and Arizona.
I don’t believe that #1 true fact at all.
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Democrats in 2021: Elections can't be stolen
Democrats in 2001: This election was stolen.
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For the last time, they were counting mail-in votes.... Here is the #1 true fact: Trump lost to Sleepy Joe Biden fair and square. Maybe if Trump ran a better campaign he would have won especially in Georgia and Arizona.
You're very unimformed @kevindavis --- And, yet you post "facts". 88devil
God love ya.
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I don’t believe that #1 true fact at all.
I'm with @Lando Lincoln . The idea that Biden won "fair and square" is not credible given what we all saw.
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Sure He ran such a crappy campaign he gained 12 million voters over 2016. And that with the fraud.
You are of course right @skeeter but there are those that will never, ever see President Trump as anything but a bad orange man. So be it.
As I have stated many, many times, one can chose to be on the side that tries to move this country in a positive direction, or one can be on the side that continues the destruction of our country.
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He did but he motivated more people to vote against him than for him. He got lucky with Hillary.
A guy who can barely stay awake during his own rallies received a historic number of votes because voters just hated the guy who brought us a booming economy & secured the border etc etc, because they blamed him for a virus coming out of a "Chinese wet market".
You go ahead and continue to swallow that one.
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I'm headed to the "Lounge" happy77 :beer: Time for pie, cake, ice cream, popcorn.... :pop41:
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This is exactly why this “election was stolen bs” is so dangerous and counterprocductive.
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
You have that completely backwards. What is "dangerous and counterproductive" is to let them get away with it.
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Sure He ran such a crappy campaign he gained 12 million voters over 2016. And that with the fraud.
Two different elections.
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Sure He ran such a crappy campaign he gained 12 million voters over 2016. And that with the fraud.
@skeeter @kevindavis
Who knew that "new math" and "RINO math" were the same thing?
Learn something new every day.....
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So all 5 f'n swing states at the same GD time start reversing their electoral trend at the exact moment all 5 states paused counting? Geez are you that freakin' naive?
You represent the Mike Pence and Liz Cheney wing of our party well. Congrats.
Am I to understand you do not accept that Biden was entitled to all of those mail-in ballots?
Y'know when you think of it, those who imply that of course the vote totals turned around after the mail in ballots started being counted are tacitly admitting there was fraud.
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Two different elections.
YES. During the second one we had a record and knew Trump intended to follow up on his promises.
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He did but he motivated more people to vote against him than for him. He got lucky with Hillary.
Fact check... True
:yowsa: :yowsa: :yowsa:
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Fact check... True
:yowsa: :yowsa: :yowsa:
You must work for Snopes.
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You must work for Snopes.
@sketter
Facts can be such squiggly,wiggly things,it's easy for them to slip from your fingers.
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Two different elections.
First election
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/c47bf2f126eb13703d8d9682e0eefa9470b30a4b/c=462-0-7942-4226/local/-/media/2017/01/26/USATODAY/USATODAY/636210589629747867-AP-Trump-Inauguration.1.jpg?width=3200&height=1680&fit=crop)
Second election
(https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/9853629_012021-wls-iteam-goudie-inauguration-security-6p-vid.jpg)
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He did but he motivated more people to vote against him than for him. He got lucky with Hillary.
So Joe Biden, who stayed hidden in his basement for months on end somehow ran a better campaign than Hillary Clinton? And Biden somehow excited more voters to show up and vote for him even though Trump was drawing even bigger crowds at his rallies than in 2016? Yeah, right.
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@sketter
Facts can be such squiggly,wiggly things,it's easy for them to slip from your fingers.
@sneakypete apparently some here have hooves for hands.
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So Joe Biden, who stayed hidden in his basement for months on end somehow ran a better campaign than Hillary Clinton? And Biden somehow excited more voters to show up and vote for him even though Trump was drawing even bigger crowds at his rallies than in 2016? Yeah, right.
@Hoodat
Hit bees magic!
Magic,ah tells ya!
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So Joe Biden, who stayed hidden in his basement for months on end somehow ran a better campaign than Hillary Clinton? And Biden somehow excited more voters to show up and vote for him even though Trump was drawing even bigger crowds at his rallies than in 2016? Yeah, right.
Joe Biden was more likable than Hillary, yes.
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A guy who can barely stay awake during his own rallies received a historic number of votes because voters just hated the guy who brought us a booming economy & secured the border etc etc, because they blamed him for a virus coming out of a "Chinese wet market".
You go ahead and continue to swallow that one.
A lot of people had problems with Trump's personality.
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@skeeter @kevindavis
Who knew that "new math" and "RINO math" were the same thing?
Learn something new every day.....
The Democrats use toilet paper math to count votes...12=96 and all that. In the end, it all ends up the same...covered with ...
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A lot of people had problems with Trump's personality.
And then there were those of us who recognize that being loveable and all that doesn't get the job done, especially when dealing with some of the most notorious badasses on the planet.
How's that foreign policy working so far, now?
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And then there were those of us who recognize that being loveable and all that doesn't get the job done, especially when dealing with some of the most notorious badasses on the planet.
How's that foreign policy working so far, now?
I didn't say I had a problem with Trump's personality. Understand?
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A lot of people had problems with Trump's personality.
I had problems with his personality - in 2016.
It is simply counterintuitive to believe his personality was a bigger problem for him in 2020, considering he gained so many actual votes.
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I had problems with his personality - in 2016.
It is simply counterintuitive to believe his personality was a bigger problem for him in 2020, considering he gained so many actual votes.
I don't think that's right... Without considering equally the white-hot anger against him too. Doesn't matter how many votes he gained if he also caused many to be hardened against him.
Considering the low turnout on both sides in '16... If he also galvanized the left to turn out. and maybe more so against him... That would have to be part of the consideration.
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I don't think that's right... Without considering equally the white-hot anger against him too. Doesn't matter how many votes he gained if he also caused many to be hardened against him.
Considering the low turnout on both sides in '16... If he also galvanized the left to turn out. and maybe more so against him... That would have to be part of the consideration.
If this was all there was to consider coming out of the 2020 election I might agree with you. But there's all that other stuff we've gone over ad nauseam, as well as the hysterical reaction of the rat media at the suggestion of any ballot audit, so I'm gonna go with The Big Lie for 1000 Alex.
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I had problems with his personality - in 2016.
It is simply counterintuitive to believe his personality was a bigger problem for him in 2020, considering he gained so many actual votes.
I think after he was President, he got a lot more exposure.
Maybe now that Biden is getting more exposure people will turn on him too. I don't know.
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I think after he was President, he got a lot more exposure.
Maybe now that Biden is getting more exposure people will turn on him too. I don't know.
How people evaluate Biden will be based, as with Trump, upon his record.
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If this was all there was to consider coming out of the 2020 election I might agree with you. But there's all that other stuff we've gone over ad nauseam, as well as the hysterical reaction of the rat media at the suggestion of any ballot audit, so I'm gonna go with The Big Lie for 1000 Alex.
I ain't far off from you in that, at least in my suspicions. I await tangible proof before jumping in with you with all four feet. I would happily agree that the numbers we are being fed from BOTH sides are spun, and none of it can be trusted... I can go that far.
Which is why I await the various forthcoming audits.
But it is seriously wrong to consider his popularity without also considering his unpopularity along with it.
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I ain't far off from you in that, at least in my suspicions. I await tangible proof before jumping in with you with all four feet. I would happily agree that the numbers we are being fed from BOTH sides are spun, and none of it can be trusted... I can go that far.
Which is why I await the various forthcoming audits.
But it is seriously wrong to consider his popularity without also considering his unpopularity along with it.
I live in California & am very familiar with TDS. But his record is what it is and I believe most Americans are not so easily led.
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How people evaluate Biden will be based, as with Trump, upon his record.
People don't vote based on records. You don't know "normies" very well. It's often just a likability contest, period.
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Joe Biden was more likable than Hillary, yes.
Ohhhh?... Why don't you let him babysit your grandchildren?
I find nothing likeable about pedophilia.
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I live in California & very familiar with TDS. But his record is what it is and I believe most Americans are not so easily led.
Well, if you are speaking of a 'most' defined by a narrow - exceedingly slim - majority, I can kinda agree to a likelihood. But if that 'most' defines a wide majority, I'd call that wrong on its face. The bare reality is that most of America lives in mega cities, which without a doubt lean far to the left. Just the major population centers, which always vote Democrat, reduce your statement to nothing but a fervent wish.
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Well, if you are speaking of a 'most' defined by a narrow - exceedingly slim - majority, I can kinda agree to a likelihood. But if that 'most' defines a wide majority, I'd call that wrong on its face. The bare reality is that most of America lives in mega cities, which without a doubt lean far to the left. Just the major population centers, which always vote Democrat, reduce your statement to nothing but a fervent wish.
I'm speaking of it in the historical sense. I fully realize the pendulum has swung inexorably leftward in general, but national elections have been determined by relatively slim majorities for decades, just as the political loyalties in cities have been rat.
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I'm speaking of it in the historical sense. I fully realize the pendulum has swung inexorably leftward in general, but national elections have been determined by relatively slim majorities for decades, just as the political loyalties in cities have been rat.
In that, I'll submit, the 'vast herds' of Tump supporters are an illusion. At best the argument is over a few spare 10s of thousands in a few states. The reality is a 50/50 split nation and that has not significantly changed.
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Ohhhh?... Why don't you let him babysit your grandchildren?
I find nothing likeable about pedophilia.
You know that this is a foolish reply in the context in what I'm speaking of. It's frankly childish. I ain't talking my personal opinion and you know that.
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You know that this is a foolish reply in the context in what I'm speaking of. It's frankly childish. I ain't talking my personal opinion and you know that.
Don't worry, you've made quite a fool of yourself on this thread without any help.
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Don't worry, you've made quite a fool of yourself on this thread without any help.
Thanks for that response, you're now in my ignore list.
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Thanks for that response, you're now in my ignore list.
I'm heartbroken (triple /s) :silly:
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You know that this is a foolish reply in the context in what I'm speaking of. It's frankly childish. I ain't talking my personal opinion and you know that.
If it's not your personal opinion, then whose opinion is it? Seriously, who considers a pedophile more likeable than Hillary Clinton?
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If it's not your personal opinion, then whose opinion is it? Seriously, who considers a pedophile more likeable than Hillary Clinton?
Sucker doesn't realize how stupid he sounded. Someone put him in the "Words have Consequences" remedial school.
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A lot of people had problems with Trump's personality.
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
Yeah,causen when it comes to balancing saving America,individual freedoms,and being able to sleep safely in your home at night without worrying about petty things like the PC Secret Police picking you up,none of THAT shit is as important as a Presidents personality,huh?
MUCH better to live in a fascist police state where everyone has the same rights to work and live where they are told,and all the freedom in the world to have as many children as they are allowed,huh?
At least we won't have a rude President,huh?
Then again, we won't HAVE a President. We,and the rest of the western world will be ruled by a corporate board that meets someplace like Geneva,and they will give the orders to our masters,who will sit on the "North American Economic Zone Board of Directors" in NYC.
The bestest news here is neither you nor anyone else will even KNOW what type of personality our Maximum Leaders will have because they will never be seen in public and they DAMN SURE will never be running for election and asking for our votes because none of US will be allowed to vote.
Good call!
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If it's not your personal opinion, then whose opinion is it? Seriously, who considers a pedophile more likeable than Hillary Clinton?
@Hoodat
What makes you so certain that Bubbette! is not a pedophile,also?
In that case,Slow Joe might be better because he would only molest them. Bubbette! might molest them and then eat them.
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If it's not your personal opinion, then whose opinion is it? Seriously, who considers a pedophile more likeable than Hillary Clinton?
I voted for Trump in both elections. It's my opinion of Trump's popularity among the "normies", people who don't post on political forums on a daily basis. They have thin, superficial reasons for voting the way they do.
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I voted for Trump in both elections. It's my opinion of Trump's popularity among the "normies", people who don't post on political forums on a daily basis. They have thin, superficial reasons for voting the way they do.
And here we are.
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I voted for Trump in both elections. It's my opinion of Trump's popularity among the "normies", people who don't post on political forums on a daily basis. They have thin, superficial reasons for voting the way they do.
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
"Thin and superficial reasons for voting"?
Really?
BTW,does this mean their votes don't count?
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In that, I'll submit, the 'vast herds' of Tump supporters are an illusion. At best the argument is over a few spare 10s of thousands in a few states. The reality is a 50/50 split nation and that has not significantly changed.
Hard to believe the rat party, media and a good chunk of the GOP would react so hysterically to a few tens of 000s in a few states. I think you’re wrong about that.
It’s not so much that the 50/50 split has changed - the 5 or 10 percent in the middle still determine outcomes - as it is the change in attitude among our 50 percent.
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Pence faces fierce resistance from GOP's pro-Trump base
Former Vice President Mike Pence is facing strong resistance from members of his party's pro-Trump base over his role in certifying the Electoral College results in the 2020 election.
Pence has stepped up his public appearances recently and is set to appear at the Family Leadership Summit in Iowa next month alongside other high-profile Republicans. But his political future is complicated by his refusal in January to bow to pressure from then-President Trump to help deliver him a victory in the race against Joe Biden.
While garnering praise from Democrats and Republicans, that decision has led to howls from members of the party's right flank — a swath of voters Pence will need should he launch a presidential campaign in three years.
“He is, unfortunately, for having done the right thing by following the constitutional duties of his office, committed an unforgivable sin to Trump, and therefore to his most loyal supporters,” said Doug Heye, a GOP strategist and former communications director for the Republican National Committee.
Pence’s struggles with the Trump wing of the GOP were put into stark relief earlier this month when attendees at the Faith and Freedom Coalition summit booed and heckled him as a “traitor.”
more
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/560584-pence-faces-fierce-resistance-from-gops-pro-trump-base
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Wrong, right or indifferent, Pence's career is over! happy77
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Pence faces fierce resistance from GOP's pro-Trump base
Former Vice President Mike Pence is facing strong resistance from members of his party's pro-Trump base over his role in certifying the Electoral College results in the 2020 election.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, Pence will never get past this issue. He needs to recognize reality and decline speaking opportunities; he just perpetuates conflict when he steps into the spotlight.
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Wrong, right or indifferent, Pence's career is over! happy77
I would have said it "Right, wrong or indifferent" :beer:. I think you are correct. He is done as an elected politician.
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Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, Pence will never get past this issue. He needs to recognize reality and decline speaking opportunities; he just perpetuates conflict when he steps into the spotlight.
I agree with you, however, Pence recognizing reality I don't think is going to happen. He's a career politician and I believe in his mind, as the former VP he deserves a shot at the WH. What he doesn't understand is that he is now strongly considered part of the establishment and that won't win him any votes. IF he thinks that Trump's base is going to go quietly into the night, or vote for him because he has an 'R' next to his name on the ballot, he's then delusional.
Gee, I'll go out on a limb here and say that voters will be given the choice of the usual establishment politicians; Mittens, Pence, and Rubio. No thank you.
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Hard to believe the rat party, media and a good chunk of the GOP would react so hysterically to a few tens of 000s in a few states. I think you’re wrong.
Fine. Liberal cities still voted liberal. Jussayin.
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I don't think that's right... Without considering equally the white-hot anger against him too. Doesn't matter how many votes he gained if he also caused many to be hardened against him.
Considering the low turnout on both sides in '16... If he also galvanized the left to turn out. and maybe more so against him... That would have to be part of the consideration.
The white hot anger was manufactured by the MSM over years of lies and bullshit. Even opposing viewpoints were derided, and in my experience was held by only a couple of types of people: Youngsters who got their news from social media where it was every bit as fashionable to bash Trump as it was to spew vitriol about Nixon back in the day (in fact, the whole 5 years of hate week reminded me of the jihad against RMH, only without any basis in law or fact). The rest were Hillary fans who are a lost cause anyway.
But what I did see were blacks and Latinos/Hispanics who seriously supported Trump,because they Came out here during an oil boom, made good money in good jobs and proved it could be done. Now, I know this is just one small corner of flyover country, but Trump got 82% of the votes in this county. Unheard of, but real, and this wasn't the highest percentage in the state. The liberal areas in the East we are saddled with, the same people who demand "their share" of oil impact grants for towns which are 350 or more miles from any oil wells over those in the thick of things trying to keep infrastructure together and hire enough sheriff's deputies to take care of things, well those areas went more for Biden than the West (which is typical, we produce, they put their hand out over there), but even then, Trump got 65% of the vote overall in the State and only failed to carry two counties with Indian Reservations, which, for some reason$ I don't under$stand, $eem to vote for Democrat$ pretty con$i$tently.
In other words, in a State with a Republican Legislature and Governor, where people generally work for a living and hold their work ethic dear, even in all but the most Liberal two Counties (out of 53), Trump won handily.
But the white hot hatred you see was an artifact, a product of an Orwellian Hate Week that didn't stop in the media, and the BIG LIE applied over and over to an age group that knows no better.
Fashion follows folly, almost essentially, and is a poor reason for making choices, as I suspect another generation is waking up to as they realize they've been had.
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Manhattan DA will not criminally charge Donald Trump - Politico
https://mobile.twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1409616424415502344
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Wrong, right or indifferent, Pence's career is over! happy77
So is Trump.
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Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, Pence will never get past this issue. He needs to recognize reality and decline speaking opportunities; he just perpetuates conflict when he steps into the spotlight.
For doing the right thing?
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So is Trump.
Sometimes there are those (not many) in this forum who purposefully try to incite and antagonize others. You are successfully trying to do so in liberal fashion.
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For doing the right thing?
Trump put Pence in a lose/lose situation by agitating for Pence to assert authority that does not exist. Pence did the only thing he could, but yes it effectively ends his career in elective politics; that should be clear just from reading this board. Pence is also incredibly stupid to talk about being proud of it, that just inflames controversy even more.
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People don't vote based on records. You don't know "normies" very well. It's often just a likability contest, period.
I completely agree with this statement @Weird Tolkienish Figure . Most people can tell you who won American Idol...but not much about politics or civics.
They vote on likability, looks and party identification. And of course (if they listen that closely) what goodies a candidate says he will provide.
It makes me very sad that these folks don't look at the country's welfare.
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Sometimes there are those (not many) in this forum who purposefully try to incite and antagonize others. You are successfully trying to do so in liberal fashion.
Oh he's trying, but not so successfully.
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Sometimes there are those (not many) in this forum who purposefully try to incite and antagonize others. You are successfully trying to do so in liberal fashion.
Hard to believe that have a few here on this thread alone who are card carrying members of the Liz Cheney Fan Club.
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Sometimes there are those (not many) in this forum who purposefully try to incite and antagonize others. You are successfully trying to do so in liberal fashion.
It seems that you are a snowflake and can't handle the truth.
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Hard to believe that have a few here on this thread alone who are card carrying members of the Liz Cheney Fan Club.
Go Liz...
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I completely agree with this statement @Weird Tolkienish Figure . Most people can tell you who won American Idol...but not much about politics or civics.
They vote on likability, looks and party identification. And of course (if they listen that closely) what goodies a candidate says he will provide.
It makes me very sad that these folks don't look at the country's welfare.
The largest segment of the voting public will vote their pocketbook, and I think most did in 2020. That is what Trump promised and indeed provided.
That the election was close enough to steal was entirely because of the Covid shutdown.
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It seems that you are a snowflake and can't handle the truth.
It seems you are twelve and require supervision when on line.
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Go Liz...
Gee I'm so glad that you could weigh in on this issue. It gives me some insight as to what to expect from you in the future. Thank you!
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For doing the right thing?
How are you doing the right thing when you ignore parliamentary procedure to achieve the desired result?
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I completely agree with this statement @Weird Tolkienish Figure . Most people can tell you who won American Idol...but not much about politics or civics.
They vote on likability, looks and party identification. And of course (if they listen that closely) what goodies a candidate says he will provide.
It makes me very sad that these folks don't look at the country's welfare.
Unfortunately, that 'likability' is often molded by the hatefests in social media or the MSM, and whether those make any rational sense or not, that religious fervor is contagious among those not innoculated against the lunacy of the MSM and pop culture.
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How are you doing the right thing when you ignore procedure to achieve the desired result?
Pence followed to the letter the only procedure that exists in law. You can prove me wrong by citing the specific provisions of the law that authorize the President of the Senate to return certified, state-sealed EVs upon the request of legislators. Just quote in any legal document - The Constitution, the Electoral Count Act of 1887, or Chapter 3 of the Code of Federal Regulations - the written details of the procedure for state legislators recalling EVs from the Joint Session.
I have made that offer to three people on this thread, and the record for proving me wrong is 0 for 3; in fact none of the three batters even took a swing. Maybe you'll do better.
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I would have said it "Right, wrong or indifferent" :beer:. I think you are correct. He is done as an elected politician.
@Lando Lincoln
I think you put your finger on what is going on.
He KNOWS he is history,so while he still has a little time left in the spot light,he is whoring himself out for cash and book deals while his name is still valuable to the left.
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Pence followed to the letter the only procedure that exists in law. You can prove me wrong by citing the specific provisions of the law that authorize the President of the Senate to return certified, state-sealed EVs upon the request of legislators. Just quote in any legal document - The Constitution, the Electoral Count Act of 1887, or Chapter 3 of the Code of Federal Regulations - the written details of the procedure for state legislators recalling EVs from the Joint Session.
I have made that offer to three people on this thread, and the record for proving me wrong is 0 for 3; in fact none of the three batters even took a swing. Maybe you'll do better.
@HoustonSam
So what? Your record,as well as everyone else's "record" on this issue is meaningless. Everybody is either starting out wrong and staying wrong,or starting out right TECHNICALLY,but still wrong because no one in the DNC or the alleged RNC give a damn about right and wrong.
This is a political world of reality being defined as "what you can get away with."
All they care about is getting away with it,and the left flat out got away with stealing the last election.
The Right understands this perfectly,and some are willing to just bend over and grab their ankles while pretending it is ok,and others are outraged MUCH more than usual because they understand there is not one single damn thing they can do about it at this point.
Right and wrong don't even really enter into the conversation.
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So is Trump.
@kevindavis
Dream on,Party Creature!
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@HoustonSam
So what? Your record,as well as everyone else's "record" on this issue is meaningless. Everybody is either starting out wrong and staying wrong,or starting out right TECHNICALLY,but still wrong because no one in the DNC or the alleged RNC give a damn about right and wrong.
This is a political world of reality being defined as "what you can get away with."
All they care about is getting away with it,and the left flat out got away with stealing the last election.
The Right understands this perfectly,and some are willing to just bend over and grab their ankles while pretending it is ok,and others are outraged MUCH more than usual because they understand there is not one single damn thing they can do about it at this point.
Right and wrong don't even really enter into the conversation.
@sneakypete
I think the Ds took their usual tactics of cheating and stealing to a new level in 2020. If it were up to me a lot of them would pay the price for treason over it.
It might be too late for right and wrong, but it is never too late for true and false. And we aren't going to solve the problem of Ds cheating by doubling down on false. When I see false I call bullshit, and it doesn't matter to me what other people think about me doing it.
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@sneakypete
I think the Ds took their usual tactics of cheating and stealing to a new level in 2020. If it were up to me a lot of them would pay the price for treason over it.
It might be too late for right and wrong, but it is never too late for true and false. And we aren't going to solve the problem of Ds cheating by doubling down on false. When I see false I call bullshit, and it doesn't matter to me what other people think about me doing it.
@HoustonSam
My friend,THAT is an OBLIGATION we ALL SHARE,even while we may disagree on what right and wrong is on any particular issue.
If we remain silent,EVERYBODY loses as we become a police state and no longer have the right to disagree.
Disagreeing rates VERY high in MY "book of morality".
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@HoustonSam
My friend,THAT is an OBLIGATION we ALL SHARE,even while we may disagree on what right and wrong is on any particular issue.
If we remain silent,EVERYBODY loses as we become a police state and no longer have the right to disagree.
Disagreeing rates VERY high in MY "book of morality".
Amen Brother @sneakypete .
:beer:
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The white hot anger was manufactured by the MSM over years of lies and bullshit. Even opposing viewpoints were derided, and in my experience was held by only a couple of types of people: Youngsters who got their news from social media where it was every bit as fashionable to bash Trump as it was to spew vitriol about Nixon back in the day (in fact, the whole 5 years of hate week reminded me of the jihad against RMH, only without any basis in law or fact). The rest were Hillary fans who are a lost cause anyway.
Doesn't matter and frankly sounds crybaby. MUCH of it was instigated by Tumpy himself... And even damn lies don't matter when Tumpy himself is lying like a damn rug. The act of meeting the press at their own level... Never wrestle with a pig, right? Only this time there's a pig on all sides. And everybody is cheering on their own pig, and is trained to hate the other pig(s). Nothing measured. Nothing journalistic... Just poo-throwing all around.
But what I did see were blacks and Latinos/Hispanics who seriously supported Trump,because they Came out here during an oil boom, made good money in good jobs and proved it could be done. Now, I know this is just one small corner of flyover country, but Trump got 82% of the votes in this county. Unheard of, but real, and this wasn't the highest percentage in the state. The liberal areas in the East we are saddled with, the same people who demand "their share" of oil impact grants for towns which are 350 or more miles from any oil wells over those in the thick of things trying to keep infrastructure together and hire enough sheriff's deputies to take care of things, well those areas went more for Biden than the West (which is typical, we produce, they put their hand out over there), but even then, Trump got 65% of the vote overall in the State and only failed to carry two counties with Indian Reservations, which, for some reason$ I don't under$stand, $eem to vote for Democrat$ pretty con$i$tently.
Not quite... but mostly, so what? Is it your opinion that Tumpy made huge forays into LIBERAL cities everywhere? Because no one is even claiming that.
In other words, in a State with a Republican Legislature and Governor, where people generally work for a living and hold their work ethic dear, even in all but the most Liberal two Counties (out of 53), Trump won handily.
But the white hot hatred you see was an artifact, a product of an Orwellian Hate Week that didn't stop in the media, and the BIG LIE applied over and over to an age group that knows no better.
Nah. They ALWAYS play the big lie. Ever since I have been cognizant of politics, which was peripherally Nixon And somewhat Ford.
Fashion follows folly, almost essentially, and is a poor reason for making choices, as I suspect another generation is waking up to as they realize they've been had.
All of that has no traction against the end result. You can whine and cry and throw dirt in the air all day long, claim he was martyred, claim it was all so unfair... But the bottom line is that there was an equally massive liberal wave to rise up against Tump which realistically nullified most of his wave. All you can be arguing about is the very top of both curves. A tiny percentage of the whole. Sorry, but that is a bare fact. Y'all didn't change hearts and minds significantly in NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, or LA. And you should quit trying to.
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Trump put Pence in a lose/lose situation by agitating for Pence to assert authority that does not exist. Pence did the only thing he could, but yes it effectively ends his career in elective politics; that should be clear just from reading this board. Pence is also incredibly stupid to talk about being proud of it, that just inflames controversy even more.
That's likely right.
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Unfortunately, that 'likability' is often molded by the hatefests in social media or the MSM, and whether those make any rational sense or not, that religious fervor is contagious among those not innoculated against the lunacy of the MSM and pop culture.
I would humbly submit that current runs in two directions. :whistle:
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Pence followed to the letter the only procedure that exists in law. You can prove me wrong by citing the specific provisions of the law that authorize the President of the Senate to return certified, state-sealed EVs upon the request of legislators. Just quote in any legal document - The Constitution, the Electoral Count Act of 1887, or Chapter 3 of the Code of Federal Regulations - the written details of the procedure for state legislators recalling EVs from the Joint Session.
I have made that offer to three people on this thread, and the record for proving me wrong is 0 for 3; in fact none of the three batters even took a swing. Maybe you'll do better.
A little more research might have been in order.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL32717/12
Objecting to the Counting of One or More
Electoral Votes
Provisions in 3 U.S.C. §15 include a procedure for making and acting on objections to the
counting of one or more of the electoral votes from a state or the District of Columbia. When the
certificate or equivalent paper from each state (or the District of Columbia) is read, “the President
of the Senate shall call for objections, if any.” Any such objection must be presented in writing
and must be signed by at least one Senator and one Representative. The objection “shall state
clearly and concisely, and without argument, the ground thereof.... ” During the joint session of
January 6, 2001, the presiding officer intervened on several occasions to halt attempts to make
speeches under the guise of offering an objection.
When an objection, properly made in writing and endorsed by at least one Senator and one
Representative, is received, each house is to meet and consider it separately. The statute states
that “[n]o votes or papers from any other State shall be acted upon until the objections previously
made to the votes or papers from any State shall have been finally disposed of.” However, in
1873, before enactment of the law now in force, the joint session agreed, without objection and
for reasons of convenience, to entertain objections with regard to two or more states before the
houses met separately on any of them.
Disposing of Objections
The joint session does not act on any objections that are made. Instead, the joint session is
suspended while each house meets separately to debate the objection and vote whether, based on
the objection, to count the vote or votes in question. Both houses must vote separately to agree to
the objection. Otherwise, the objection fails and the vote or votes are counted. (3 U.S.C. §15,
provides that “the two Houses concurrently may reject the vote or votes.... ”)
These procedures have been invoked twice since enactment of the 1887 law. The first was an
instance of what has been called the “faithless elector” problem. In 1969, a Representative (James
O’Hara of Michigan) and a Senator (Edmund S. Muskie of Maine) objected in writing to counting
the vote of an elector from North Carolina who had been expected to cast his vote for Richard
Nixon and Spiro Agnew, but who instead cast his vote for George Wallace and Curtis LeMay.
Both chambers met and voted separately to reject the objection, so when the joint session
resumed, the challenged electoral vote was counted as cast.11 In that instance, the elector whose
vote was challenged was from a state that did not by law “bind” its electors to vote only for the
candidates to whom they were pledged. The instance of a “faithless” elector from a state that
does, in fact, bind the elector by law to vote for the candidate to whom listed or pledged has not
yet been expressly addressed by Congress or the courts.12
11 When the two chambers reconvened in joint session, the Secretary of the Senate reported that the Senate had agreed
to the following action: “Ordered, that the Senate by a vote of 33 ayes to 58 nays rejects the objection to the electoral
votes cast in the State of North Carolina for George C. Wallace for President and Curtis E. LeMay for Vice President.”
The Clerk of the House stated the results of the House action: “Ordered, that the House of Representatives rejects the
objection to the electoral vote of the State of North Carolina submitted by the Representative from Michigan, Mr.
O’Hara, and the Senator from Maine, Mr. Muskie.” Congressional Record, vol. 115 (January 6, 1969), p. 171. The
House vote was 170-228. See also Deschler’s Precedents, vol. 3, chap. 10, §3.6. Both houses used roll call votes to
decide the question.
12 See Ray v. Blair, 343 U.S. 214 (1952) in which the Court upheld the permissibility of such state limitations but did
not address their enforceability.
The second instance was related to reported voting irregularities in Ohio. In 2005, a
Representative (Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio) and a Senator (Barbara Boxer of California)
objected in writing to the Ohio electoral votes. The chambers withdrew from the joint session to
consider the objection, and the House and Senate each rejected the objection. When the House
and Senate resumed the joint session, the electoral votes were counted as cast.13
Procedures for Considering Objections
3 U.S.C. §17 lays out procedures for each house to follow in debating and voting on an objection.
These procedures limit debate on the objection to not more than two hours, during which each
Member may speak only once, and for not more than five minutes. Then “it shall be the duty of
the presiding officer of each House to put the main question without further debate.” Under this
provision, the presiding officer in each house held in 1969 that a motion to table the objection
was not in order.14
In the House, the Speaker announced both in 1969 and 2005 that he would attempt to recognize
supporters of the objection and opponents in an alternating fashion for the duration of the twohour period. In one instance in 1969, the Speaker inquired whether a Member supported or
opposed the challenge before he agreed to recognize him to speak. Members can yield to each
other during debate as they can during five-minute debate in the Committee of the Whole, and
many chose to do so in 2005. The Speaker also entertained unanimous consent requests to insert
material in the Congressional Record.
In 1969 the Senate agreed, by unanimous consent, to a different way in which the time for debate
was to be controlled and allocated, granting one hour each to the majority and minority leaders
and authorizing them to yield not more than five minutes to any Senator seeking recognition to
speak.15 The five-minute debate prescribed in the statute was followed in 2005, however, and the
Presiding Officer entertained requests to insert statements into the Congressional Record.
Basis for Objections
The general grounds for an objection to the counting of an electoral vote or votes would appear
from the federal statute and from historical sources to be that such vote was not “regularly given”
by an elector, and/or that the elector was not “lawfully certified” according to state statutory
procedures. The statutory provision first provides in the negative that “no electoral vote ...
regularly given by electors whose appointment has been lawfully certified ... from which but one
return has been received shall be rejected” (3 U.S.C. §15), and then reiterates for clarity16 that
both houses concurrently may reject a vote when not “so regularly given” by electors “so
certified” (3 U.S.C. §15). It should be noted that the word “lawfully” was expressly inserted by
the House in the Senate legislation (S. 9, 49th Congress) before the word “certified.”
17 Such addition arguably provides an indication that Congress thought it might, as grounds for an
13 When the two chambers reconvened in joint session, the Secretary of the Senate reported that the Senate had agreed
to the following action: “Ordered, that the Senate by a vote of 1 aye to 74 nays rejects the objection to the electoral
votes cast in the State of Ohio for George W. Bush for President and Richard Cheney for Vice President.” The Clerk of
the House then stated the results of the House action: “Ordered, that the House of Representatives rejects the objection
to the electoral vote of the State of Ohio.” Congressional Record, daily edition, vol. 151 (January 6, 2005), p. H128.
The House vote was 31-267. Both houses used roll call votes to decide the question.
14 Deschler’s Precedents, ch. 10, §3.7, pp. 18-20.
15 Deschler’s Precedents, ch. 10, §3.8, pp. 20-23.
16 See Conference Report on 1887 legislation, Congressional Record, vol. 18 (January 14, 1887), p. 668.
17 Ibid.
objection, question and look into the lawfulness of the certification under state law. The objection
that votes were not “regularly given” may, in practice, subsume the objection that the elector was
not “lawfully certified,” for a vote given by one not “lawfully certified” may arguably be other
than “regularly given.” Nevertheless, the two objections are not necessarily the same. In the case
of the so-called “faithless elector” in 1969, described above, the elector was apparently “lawfully
certified” by the state, but the objection raised was that the vote was not “regularly given” by
such elector. In the above-described 2005 case, the objection was also based on the grounds that
the electoral votes “were not, under all of the known circumstances, regularly given.”
There is indeed statutory provision for lawful and properly filed objections. You can't under parliamentary procedure just ignore them, you have to deal with them in some manner, even if they are ultimately dismissed.
Pence did not follow proper parliamentary procedure.
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How Congress certifies Electoral College results: What to know
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/how-congress-certifies-electoral-college-results-what-to-know
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@HoustonSam
My friend,THAT is an OBLIGATION we ALL SHARE,even while we may disagree on what right and wrong is on any particular issue.
If we remain silent,EVERYBODY loses as we become a police state and no longer have the right to disagree.
Disagreeing rates VERY high in MY "book of morality".
I always figured it would be cheaper to disagree while we were just fighting with words.
Not disagreeing is never cheap, when the truth is at stake, and waiting just means the price of Liberty will be much, much higher.
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I always figured it would be cheaper to disagree while we were just fighting with words.
@Smokin Joe
VERY true,but the adrenaline rush just ain't the same. I honestly think this is why SOME people,mostly from the left who get their rush from watching OTHER people do the fighting,keep pushing and just never stop.
Not disagreeing is never cheap, when the truth is at stake, and waiting just means the price of Liberty will be much, much higher.
It is ALWAYS much,much higher in the long run.
BTW,notice how everybody on EBERY TB station in the known universe suddenly just can't find even good things to praise Bill Barr over?
Notice how he is on the teebee quoting the BIDEN Justice Dept officials,who are ALL political flunkies and Dim appointments given their positions by the Biden administration?
Yet the media NEVER seems to highlight the "insider baseball game" being played?
After all,WHO is shocked by a Biden Administration agreeing with the DNC?
Yet Barr is skating on this. Not a WORD of criticism from the RNC weenies. It's only the rank and file Republic voters like me bringing it up,and I even seem to be the first. Which HAS to be impossible,but I honestly haven't seen or heard anyone bring this point up.
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There is indeed statutory provision for lawful and properly filed objections. You can't under parliamentary procedure just ignore them, you have to deal with them in some manner, even if they are ultimately dismissed.
Pence did not follow proper parliamentary procedure.
I have already cited five independent references in post 36 above on this thread indicating that written objections were fully considered in accord with the statutes and precedents you cite. The Joint Session adjourned twice to separate chambers to debate written objections, one for AZ's EVs and once for PA's. Neither objection was sustained by either chamber.
It is not true that Pence ignored written objections to EVs and hence violated procedure.
False.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-democrats-object-more-states-2016-republicans-2020-1561407
https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/07/954380156/here-are-the-republicans-who-objected-to-the-electoral-college-count
https://ballotpedia.org/Counting_of_electoral_votes_(January_6-7,_2021)
https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Electoral_College_vote_count
The only states for which Senators submitted written objections were Arizona and Pennsylvania. Since House members had also submitted written objections for these states, in both instances the Joint Session adjourned to separate sessions of each chamber, in accord with the Electoral Count Act of 1887.
The demonstration occurred during the consideration of the objections to AZ's EVs in each chamber; the objections to PA's EVs took place in each chamber after the Joint Session re-convened when the demonstration had been cleared.
Please cite a reference for the assertion that written objections from members of both chambers were ignored.
Several people have repeated the disproven claim that Pence simply ignored the procedures for considering objections. Where is that belief coming from?
You've taken a good swing here, but it's still a miss.
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Go Liz...
Your posts are becoming tiresome and you know exactly what you are doing. They add nothing and are designed/intended to irritate. Nothing more.
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Your posts are becoming tiresome and you know exactly what you are doing. They add nothing and are designed/intended to irritate. Nothing more.
Agreed!!!
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@Smokin Joe
VERY true,but the adrenaline rush just ain't the same. I honestly think this is why SOME people,mostly from the left who get their rush from watching OTHER people do the fighting,keep pushing and just never stop.
It is ALWAYS much,much higher in the long run.
BTW,notice how everybody on EBERY TB station in the known universe suddenly just can't find even good things to praise Bill Barr over?
Notice how he is on the teebee quoting the BIDEN Justice Dept officials,who are ALL political flunkies and Dim appointments given their positions by the Biden administration?
Yet the media NEVER seems to highlight the "insider baseball game" being played?
After all,WHO is shocked by a Biden Administration agreeing with the DNC?
Yet Barr is skating on this. Not a WORD of criticism from the RNC weenies. It's only the rank and file Republic voters like me bringing it up,and I even seem to be the first. Which HAS to be impossible,but I honestly haven't seen or heard anyone bring this point up.
I noticed the guy who couldn't see any evidence of the Steal is still in there sucking it up and acting like he belongs. (Because he is right at home, the effin' pollywog knows the swamp).
I noticed, but I also have been watching to see who would mention it. Barr, Pence, a lot of the swamp critters are making themselves known because they feel safe. Its the real pros who will manage to not out themselves and keep the game going.