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Exclusive Content => Editorials => Topic started by: Liberty Tree Dr on August 18, 2016, 12:22:45 pm
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For serious discussion, please (really, pretty please):
I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals. Let's assume these new Americans will vote as other new Americans tend to do, in the 80/20 or even 90/10 ratio for Democrats. That means for every Republican/Right voter, Hillary mints 4 or 5 Democrat voters. These voters would sew up Florida and a couple other southern States, and even threaten Texas.
So, if this comes to pass, please outline with as much detail and reason as you can muster the path that takes us away from Venezuelan-style banana republic and back to the Reagan vision. Please avoid magical thinking, and I will stipulate that the Second Coming might occur anytime to make this argument moot.
Once more into the breach, @don-o ...
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Random thoughts:
I am reminded of LBJ...racist to the bone, locking up the black vote.
Demographics are inescapable.
Nancy Pelosi has never given up on the "Fairness Doctrine."
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For serious discussion, please (really, pretty please):
I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals. Let's assume these new Americans will vote as other new Americans tend to do, in the 80/20 or even 90/10 ratio for Democrats. That means for every Republican/Right voter, Hillary mints 4 or 5 Democrat voters. These voters would sew up Florida and a couple other southern States, and even threaten Texas.
So, if this comes to pass, please outline with as much detail and reason as you can muster the path that takes us away from Venezuelan-style banana republic and back to the Reagan vision. Please avoid magical thinking, and I will stipulate that the Second Coming might occur anytime to make this argument moot.
Once more into the breach, @don-o ...
Another meaningless argument - There is no guarantee that the Republicans would do any differently - Especially with a NYC Yankee running the show - Remember it has been the REPUBLICANS pushing for amnesty.
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Obama=Hillary will keep Milwaukee burning. The GOP Establishment is riddled through and through with "white guilt."
Hispanics laugh at American politicians. They say one (GOP) wants to use them for punching bags, while the other (dems) want to give them stuff.
Most of them really prefer dignity, but will take the stuff.
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Another meaningless argument - There is no guarantee that the Republicans would do any differently - Especially with a NYC Yankee running the show - Remember it has been the REPUBLICANS pushing for amnesty.
Who has ever expected guarantees in the political realm?
It has been the Dems granting amnesty. But, I supposed Clinton's amnesty won't be all THAT bad. Right?
And her SCOTUS appointments wont be THAT bad? And her payback for cash received won't be THAT bad. Right?
I keep hearing about building something for the future. That future promises to be exponentially darker and more difficult to operate in under Obama in a pantsuit.
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Who has ever expected guarantees in the political realm?
Yet you seem to see one in Trump...
It has been the Dems granting amnesty. But, I supposed Clinton's amnesty won't be all THAT bad. Right?
And her SCOTUS appointments wont be THAT bad? And her payback for cash received won't be THAT bad. Right?
I keep hearing about building something for the future. That future promises to be exponentially darker and more difficult to operate in under Obama in a pantsuit.
Your focus is all wrong - I know it will be damnably bad if there is a Clinton administration. My point is that a Trump administration will be no better. He's already at touch-back amnesty. There is likely no difference in judges - he'll appoint liberals too- Because he IS a liberal
I think one can loathe Clinton so much that one builds expectations into Trump... Cherry-picking his word salad can give one something approaching sanity...
The REAL solution lies in Castle. Perhaps if all y'all stopped beating a dead horse and helped get Castle out there, we'd actually get a win. and a real win, at that.
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I am at the point where it comes down to given the choice, which candidate has the best chance of creating gridlock for the next four years. Odds are it's Trump, since even his own party will probably fight him tooth and nail.
And all things considered, right now, Gridlock is looking pretty good.
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It is said, we already have an example in California, a state that voted Democrat for President only once between 1952 and 1988. Now, it is one of the deepest blue states about, not one Republican in a statewide office.
http://www.270towin.com/states/California
A number of factors contribute to this I gather.
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Yet you seem to see one in Trump...
You know better than that.
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I am at the point where it comes down to given the choice, which candidate has the best chance of creating gridlock for the next four years. Odds are it's Trump, since even his own party will probably fight him tooth and nail.
And all things considered, right now, Gridlock is looking pretty good.
Sorry Charlie - False hope - McConnell and Ryan are still in place. Preibus is still in place. Until you pry their fingers of the levers of power, and replace them with Conservatives, you'll get exactly what you have been getting. And Trump is fine with that, or he'd have had them step down...
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You know better than that.
I will reiterate that there is no way to secure the promises coming from a damned liar of the first order.
The best way to judge him is by his history - before he began shaping himself for a political run.
Do that, and he is no different than Clinton... Any distinction is without a difference.
Far, Far better to eschew the liberal candidates and lift the Conservative.
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2016 has proved to be a year of disruption.
Clinton will continue the Obama disruption, complete with white guilt, income/wealth redistribution, liberal supreme court decisions, weaker and weaker military and border security.
Trump took advantage of Republican disarray, 17 candidates no less, and pushed to the front. He alone won the disruption contest.
Now those on the political right, find him "too icky" for their delicate, refined manners.
In a disruptive environment, you don't all get to pick some pristine, perfect soul to pushes back on the pendulum.
GOP establishment types prefer to not push back. Just settle for Hillary, instead of uniting in order to win.
So in the end, the truly "icky" ones include Romney, Jeb Bush, Kasich, Bill Kristol, Glenn Beck, etc.
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Now those on the political right, find him "too icky" for their delicate, refined manners.
In a disruptive environment, you don't all get to pick some pristine, perfect soul to pushes back on the pendulum.
Oh, bullcrap. I'll push back HARD for Conservatism.
Not so much for NYC liberalism.
Not at all for alt-right race based nonsense.
Not a bit for a lying, asinine buffoon.
For all that, You're on your own.
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For serious discussion, please (really, pretty please):
I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals. Let's assume these new Americans will vote as other new Americans tend to do, in the 80/20 or even 90/10 ratio for Democrats. That means for every Republican/Right voter, Hillary mints 4 or 5 Democrat voters. These voters would sew up Florida and a couple other southern States, and even threaten Texas.
So, if this comes to pass, please outline with as much detail and reason as you can muster the path that takes us away from Venezuelan-style banana republic and back to the Reagan vision. Please avoid magical thinking, and I will stipulate that the Second Coming might occur anytime to make this argument moot.
Once more into the breach, @don-o ...
I agree with all this, the Never-Trumpers really want the whole USA to become as blue as California;
In the end, this same kind of spiel was said about Romney, who though not perfect, I voted for; if he had won, we wouldn't be dealing with this scenario.
Clinton will decimate the USA, there is some hope with Trump, Mike Pence is a solid conservative.
Trump puts America first, law and order first, wishes to seal the border and fight terrorism. I don't know what people want in a candidate. This is not liberalism.
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Most illegals are fairly conservative. All the Hispanics I know are mostly pro life, want small gov't etc.
If we treat them like crap they will go to the dark side.
No one including Trump is going to send 15 million people back home.
The best we can do is build the wall and assimilate the ones here the best we can.
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There is not a doubt in my mind that Trump will legalize the illegals too.
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African Americans are not liberal as a group.
Illegals, etc. are not liberal but I would say they are big government, big government entitlement programs are going to be voted for.
Unfortunately, the Republican party would then, have to be the party that gives out entitlements like the Democrats do.
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It is said, we already have an example in California, a state that voted Democrat for President only once between 1952 and 1988.
Nice cherry picking of years. They voted for democrats 5 presidential elections in a row before that time and 6 times now after that.
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Nice cherry picking of years. They voted for democrats 5 presidential elections in a row before that time and 6 times now after that.
It's not cherry picking, during the Republican reign, Ike through Reagan, California almost always voted Red.
Governor Reagan became a president of the US; he's from California.
Rush Limbaugh is always saying this.
Now California is a deep blue state.
The rest of the US could end up in similar condition.
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California is known for its urban flight, to Colorado, Washington and Oregon and other places. There are lessons to be learned.
I"m not sure if it was legal immigration, Reagan's amnesty or what, but California has absorbed a huge population which demographically changed it.
Everyone knows that, they had conservatives like Bob Dornan, etc. in congress; now, every major office in California basically is democrat. This is all very well known stuff.
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In fact, Nixon and Reagan both hailed to California, that shows you how important one state can be. We probably won't be seeing California offer up Presidential candidates soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon
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I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals.
This just proves that folks who think ideological principles hinge on electing a person to high office, have everything bass ackwards.
There IS NO BRINGING CONSERVATISM BACK to a culture and population that has rejected morality and our biblical religious heritage as the foundation for a civil society.
Hillary and Trump are the FRUITS of a culture and society that have become totally corrupted and self-absorbed with hedonism and licentiousness. It explains why so many look on them as defacto dictators needed to carry out the will of their respective mobs.
You folks are looking for political solutions to spiritual problems - and you are never going to find any remedy to what you supposedly think you seek.
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African Americans are not liberal as a group.
Their voting patterns suggest otherwise.
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For serious discussion, please (really, pretty please):
I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals. Let's assume these new Americans will vote as other new Americans tend to do, in the 80/20 or even 90/10 ratio for Democrats. That means for every Republican/Right voter, Hillary mints 4 or 5 Democrat voters. These voters would sew up Florida and a couple other southern States, and even threaten Texas.
So, if this comes to pass, please outline with as much detail and reason as you can muster the path that takes us away from Venezuelan-style banana republic and back to the Reagan vision. Please avoid magical thinking, and I will stipulate that the Second Coming might occur anytime to make this argument moot.
Once more into the breach, @don-o ...
STOP PAYING TAXES
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For serious discussion, please (really, pretty please):
Well, considering how Trump just named a pro-amnesty woman as his campaign manager, are you asking Trump supporters this?
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Another meaningless argument - There is no guarantee that the Republicans would do any differently - Especially with a NYC Yankee running the show - Remember it has been the REPUBLICANS pushing for amnesty.
You failed right off the bat. Please re-read my question. This is a thought experiment - Hillary wins, amnesties 10s of millions. How do you get the country back?
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There is not a doubt in my mind that Trump will legalize the illegals too.
Another failed response. I didn't ask if Trump was better/worse. I asked how you plan to get the country back if Hillary wins and amnesties 10s of millions. If you think Trump will do the same, then you can answer this one - Hillary OR Trump wins, amnesties 10s of millions - how do you get the country back?
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Trump is the most liberal GOP nominee ever. We used to grouse that a Democrat with an R by their name would be nominated and now it has come true.
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You failed right off the bat. Please re-read my question. This is a thought experiment -
I understood the question fine. Here again, is my answer:
Hillary Trump wins, amnesties 10s of millions. How do you get the country back?
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This just proves that folks who think ideological principles hinge on electing a person to high office, have everything bass ackwards.
There IS NO BRINGING CONSERVATISM BACK to a culture and population that has rejected morality and our biblical religious heritage as the foundation for a civil society.
Hillary and Trump are the FRUITS of a culture and society that have become totally corrupted and self-absorbed with hedonism and licentiousness. It explains why so many look on them as defacto dictators needed to carry out the will of their respective mobs.
You folks are looking for political solutions to spiritual problems - and you are never going to find any remedy to what you supposedly think you seek.
Thanks, @INVAR. First poster who answered the question. I'll mark this as conservatism returning via Divine intervention.
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Well, considering how Trump just named a pro-amnesty woman as his campaign manager, are you asking Trump supporters this?
No, please re-read the initial post - I clearly directed this to the #NeverTrump people.
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Trump is the most liberal GOP nominee ever. We used to grouse that a Democrat with an R by their name would be nominated and now it has come true.
Noted. To try and get this thread back on track, if Trump loses since we don't want a filthy Democrat pretending to be a Republican to win, and Hillary grants citizenship to 10s of millions after amnesty, how do you bring conservatism back?
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How about you tell me how you get the country back if either Trump OR Hillary amnesties 10s of millions. If you refuse to answer, I'll assume you are not able to do so.
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Noted. To try and get this thread back on track, if Trump loses since we don't want a filthy Democrat pretending to be a Republican to win, and Hillary grants citizenship to 10s of millions after amnesty, how do you bring conservatism back?
Simple. Deploy magical thinking. Problem solved.
#NeverTrump.
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Simple. Deploy magical thinking. Problem solved.
#NeverTrump.
In fairness, I don't think you're really a #NeverTrump person based on posts I've seen you make on other threads. Shame! Shame! :nono:
Now, so we can get a good thread like this in the Politics forum (from whence this thread was moved), please start your own heavily-editorialized news website and publish an article I can link to that asks this question. That way, I can post a link and partial excerpt of your lightly-sourced opinion piece masquerading as real news to the Politics forum like certain others are doing on the #NeverTrump side. Maybe you can name @don-o as your Washington correspondent - I'm sure he can gin up some "unnamed campaign insiders" to lend credence to your lightly-sourced opinion piece masquerading as real news (LSOPMARN) like the #NeverTrump folks' favorites - the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, and other such bastions of credible, unbiased, agenda-less hard journalism I'm seeing linked to over there.
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Thanks, @INVAR. First poster who answered the question. I'll mark this as conservatism returning via Divine intervention.
"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it." - John Adams, July 7, 1777
In modern English: you do not get the "country back". Ever.
You cannot have a nation with open borders and a welfare state open to them coupled with a refusal to demand assimilation as we have had for 25 plus years.
You become fundamentally transformed.
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2 Chron. 7:14 Pray earnestly for revival because what INVAR posted (see reply #21) is 100% accurate.
@INVAR
Amen to that. And I do pray for that exact thing. I also pray that we will receive a leader of His choosing, not our own.
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There is not a doubt in my mind that Trump will legalize the illegals too.
Yep.
One little ol' Amnesty and they aren't illegal any more.
>POOF!!<
No more illegals except for the ones dripping dry on the riverbank.
No problemo!
And think of all the money he'll save on that wall! It's YUUGE!!!
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In fairness, I don't think you're really a #NeverTrump person based on posts I've seen you make on other threads. Shame! Shame! :nono:
Now, so we can get a good thread like this in the Politics forum (from whence this thread was moved), please start your own heavily-editorialized news website and publish an article I can link to that asks this question. That way, I can post a link and partial excerpt of your lightly-sourced opinion piece masquerading as real news to the Politics forum like certain others are doing on the #NeverTrump side. Maybe you can name @don-o as your Washington correspondent - I'm sure he can gin up some "unnamed campaign insiders" to lend credence to your lightly-sourced opinion piece masquerading as real news (LSOPMARN) like the #NeverTrump folks' favorites - the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, and other such bastions of credible, unbiased, agenda-less hard journalism I'm seeing linked to over there.
Thinly sourced?
Like Ted Cruz's five mistresses?
Or His dad being in on killing JFK?
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How about you tell me how you get the country back if either Trump OR Hillary amnesties 10s of millions. If you refuse to answer, I'll assume you are not able to do so.
You don't. Not in its current configuration. Consider the premise of the thought experiment: Hillary or Trump is dictator and usurps Congressional authority and the Judiciary. In this scenario checks and balances failed. So the answer is not to go forward by going back, but to go forward by going forward:
(http://www.commonsensegovernment.com/pix/tytler.jpg)
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."
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Simple. Deploy magical thinking. Problem solved.
#NeverTrump.
:bigsilly:
Magical thinking. You mean like believing, against all facts, that Donald Trump is the second coming of Christ, and is going to solve all of your problems?
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How will Conservativism advance or even survive with Trump trying to destroy such great conservatives as Cruz, Lee, Cucinelli (?)..... Trump doesn't understand conservatism, how could he advance it? Also, Trump Team has a PAC who has committed to booting out the freedom caucus.
At least people will fight for conservatism against Hillary. With Trump, former conservatives have been accepting liberalism AND DEFENDING IT.
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There is not a doubt in my mind that Trump will legalize the illegals too.
http://www.univision.com/univision-news/politics/trump-to-introduce-reforms-to-legalize-some-undocumented-immigrants
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I would like to understand from the principled #NeverTrump members their post-2016 action plan to bring Conservatism back from the brink if/once Hillary is elected and implements her plan amnesty plan that grants citizenship to tens of millions of illegals.
Here's a better question: why are you surrendering without a fight?
Seriously: are you suggesting that Conservatism such a weak and sickly idea that it's impossible for immigrants to understand and support it?
Think about it: a lot of illegals are coming here to work and make a better life for themselves and their families. Why wouldn't we welcome such people into the ranks of conservatism?
And how would you go about reaching them with the message?
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Now Trump is open to legalizing them.
hahahaha
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http://www.univision.com/univision-news/politics/trump-to-introduce-reforms-to-legalize-some-undocumented-immigrants
yup
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Here's a better question: why are you surrendering without a fight?
Seriously: are you suggesting that Conservatism such a weak and sickly idea that it's impossible for immigrants to understand and support it?
Think about it: a lot of illegals are coming here to work and make a better life for themselves and their families. Why wouldn't we welcome such people into the ranks of conservatism?
And how would you go about reaching them with the message?
I asked you first. That was the whole point of my post. How are you going to turn those newly minted Democrat voters into conservatives? How are YOU planning to reach them with the message?
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I asked you first. That was the whole point of my post. How are you going to turn those newly minted Democrat voters into conservatives? How are YOU planning to reach them with the message?
That's not at all what I got out of your original post, the intent of which was rather obviously to stump for Trump.
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That's not at all what I got out of your original post, the intent of which was rather obviously to stump for Trump.
No, I specifically am trying to understand how the #NeverTrump people plan on turning the country around, whether Hillary or Trump wins. I'll assume for this purpose that both Trump and Hillary will bring about lots of newly minted citizens. How will you work on getting those new voters - who will go 9 or 10 to 1 for Democrats - to turn into conservative voters? What's the plan?
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No, I specifically am trying to understand how the #NeverTrump people plan on turning the country around, whether Hillary or Trump wins. I'll assume for this purpose that both Trump and Hillary will bring about lots of newly minted citizens. How will you work on getting those new voters - who will go 9 or 10 to 1 for Democrats - to turn into conservative voters? What's the plan?
The best shot there is is Social Conservatism. Exactly what the Republicans are trying so hard to step away from.
But for now, I'll be concentrating on the Constitution party. We're a long way from having a political party to represent us, since the Republicans are epic failures at same. Likewise on the fight against liberalism and the restoration of Constitutional precepts... It's a long haul, but you've got to start somewhere.
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How will conservatism advance when Trump gives them amnesty? You don't advance conservatism by voting for liberals like Trump.
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No, I specifically am trying to understand how the #NeverTrump people plan on turning the country around, whether Hillary or Trump wins. I'll assume for this purpose that both Trump and Hillary will bring about lots of newly minted citizens. How will you work on getting those new voters - who will go 9 or 10 to 1 for Democrats - to turn into conservative voters? What's the plan?
The question has been answered before, but here goes.
It will require the advancement of a third party to significant status, politically. So far, that seems to be the Libertarian Party in greatest contention, but I would surmise that is partly because it is the only third party many people can name, and partly because the Libertarian Candidate is doing what he can to get prospective other third parties removed from consideration by mischaracterizing them or their candidates. (For instance, characterizing Darrell Castle as a '9/11 troofer' when he just wants the other 28 pages of the 9/11 Commission Report released (the ones dealing with Saudi connections to the incident), or presenting the Constitution Party as a Religious one when it, in fact, is centered on the United States Constitution and Original Intent).
In many cases, of the 70 odd "third" parties out there, there is no need to malign candidates not suited for the job, or platforms most conservatives would not accept.
The competition for the votes of Republicans who recognize that since Reagan, much ground has been lost, even with the GOP in charge, vis-a-vis the Constitutional Rights of American Citizens, is fierce. There are many present and former Republicans who also recognize that continually electing the most liberal of the possible GOP candidates is not serving the goals of Conservatives in the Party, and who represent a potential voter base for third parties.
It has become evident from the statements of both Hillary and Trump that there will be no reduction in the size or scope of the Federal Government during the tenure of either, and without another voice in the fray, conservatives will remain muzzled or disdained at the top of the executive branch.