The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Space => Topic started by: kevindavis007 on March 02, 2017, 01:14:31 am
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Brianna Wu, a Dem, claims that Moon valuable militarily because rocks ‘have power of 100s of nuclear bombs’
A transgender-issues activist and Democratic candidate for Congress says the advent of the space tourism industry could give private corporations a “frightening amount of power” to destroy the Earth with rocks because of the Moon’s military importance.
Brianna Wu, a prominent “social justice warrior” in the “Gamergate” controversy who now is running for the House seat in Massachusetts’ 8th District, suggested in a since-deleted tweet that companies could drop rocks from the Moon.
“The moon is probably the most tactically valuable military ground for earth,” the tweet said. “Rocks dropped from there have power of 100s of nuclear bombs.”
SpaceX announced Monday it is planning to launch a tourism venture to the Moon in 2018.
Read More: http://www.isn-news.net/2017/03/congressional-candidate-moon-colonizing.html
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Space Ping!
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@EC
@Joe Wooten
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@Just_Victor
@montanajoe
@Ghost Bear
@Free Vulcan
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@Victoria33
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Was that Footfall? Hammer of the Gods? I can't remember.
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“The moon is probably the most tactically valuable military ground for earth,” the tweet said. “Rocks dropped from there have power of 100s of nuclear bombs.”
Well.... yeah, one could do that; and with a bit of precise targeting and not too terribly much delta-V, either. But it's cheaper to build and use nukes.
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Duh, I've been saying it all along. The moon is the high ground.
Personally I wouldn't screw with rocks. Tungsten darts launched with mass drivers would be far more effective.
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Well.... yeah, one could do that; and with a bit of precise targeting and not too terribly much delta-V, either. But it's cheaper to build and use nukes.
But nukes are so inhuman. Bashing people to death with a rock goes way back.
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(https://bangmosnowdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/wordpress-stupid-it-burns.jpg)
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Lucifer's Hammer.
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Duh, I've been saying it all along. The moon is the high ground.
Personally I wouldn't screw with rocks. Tungsten darts launched with mass drivers would be far more effective.
Is that like lawn darts? They'd never go for it. ^-^
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I do have to wonder what possible incentive a space based company would have to kill lots of their customers in an apparent show of power.
Damocrats. :whistle:
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The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Actually, she isn't that nuts. This is something that has been explored by the US Military in many different ways. Kinetic Bombardment. If you are already up there, it is far more of an efficient way of attack that shooting rockets from continent to continent.
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I do have to wonder what possible incentive a space based company would have to kill lots of their customers in an apparent show of power.
Damocrats. :whistle:
If it is a military operation it makes complete sense that it doesn't make sense.
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The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Actually, she isn't that nuts. This is something that has been explored by the US Military in many different ways. Kinetic Bombardment. If you are already up there, it is far more of an efficient way of attack that shooting rockets from continent to continent.
I wonder how much of a miscalculation you can make, the margin of error, to even be close?
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The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Actually, she isn't that nuts. This is something that has been explored by the US Military in many different ways. Kinetic Bombardment. If you are already up there, it is far more of an efficient way of attack that shooting rockets from continent to continent.
Well the loony part thinks that Spacex is going to bomb earth with Moon Rocks..
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Well the loony part thinks that Spacex is going to bomb earth with Moon Rocks..
Elon Musk isn't my favorite person but Dr Evil he ain't.
Plus he already gets more than ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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Well the loony part thinks that Spacex is going to bomb earth with Moon Rocks..
Very true, but the physics work, the economics work, and history shows us, eventually if man finds it can throw a rock at someone else, they will throw it.
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Elon Musk isn't my favorite person but Dr Evil he ain't.
Plus he already gets more than ONE MILLION DOLLARS
:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:
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Very true, but the physics work, the economics work, and history shows us, eventually if man finds it can throw a rock at someone else, they will throw it.
True.. I think in The Expanse (at least in the Novels).. Earth has been devastated by a serious of meteor showers that was done on purpose.
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True.. I think in The Expanse (at least in the Novels).. Earth has been devastated by a serious of meteor showers that was done on purpose.
That's where Eros was heading at the end of last week's episode but I think its going to end up impacting Venus.
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I wonder how much of a miscalculation you can make, the margin of error, to even be close?
If you throw a big enough rock, it won't matter.
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That's where Eros was heading at the end of last week's episode but I think its going to end up impacting Venus.
Not going to say a thing..
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Was that Footfall? Hammer of the Gods? I can't remember.
Footfall, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and a few (IIRC) John Ringo novels.
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But wouldn't that cause the moon to tip over?
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Was that Footfall? Hammer of the Gods? I can't remember.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - Heinlein.
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If you throw a big enough rock, it won't matter.
I was shooting for tactical. Like dropsies. Any dang fool can play planet killer. ^-^
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You would have to propel that rock with a sizeable amount of energy so that it would impact the earth and not just orbit around it. How much energy was required for the Apollo vehicles to return to the earth? And they were by no means city destroyers. Any city destroying rock is going to have to be accelerated with a huge amount of energy.
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Footfall, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and a few (IIRC) John Ringo novels.
@EC
Hammer of God was an asteroid, I think, A. C. Clarke. It wasn't Hammer of the Gods.
Lucifer's Hammer was one. I think there was a similar Greg Bear book.
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Lucifer's Hammer.
Lucifer's Hammer was a big comet that hit Earth, completely natural. Footfall featured the attacking aliens dropping rocks to take out centers of human opposition.
As others have pointed out, in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress the Loonies repurposed the mass drivers meant to send raw materials to Earth into bombardment cannons.
Kinetic bombardment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) a.k.a. "Project Thor" a.k.a "Rods from God" was one of the advanced weapons concepts thought up by the Air Force during the "Star Wars" push in the late-80s. Jerry Pournelle talks about it in a couple of places on his blog.
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Lucifer's Hammer was a big comet that hit Earth, completely natural. Footfall featured the attacking aliens dropping rocks to take out centers of human opposition.
As others have pointed out, in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress the Loonies repurposed the mass drivers meant to send raw materials to Earth into bombardment cannons.
Kinetic bombardment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) a.k.a. "Project Thor" a.k.a "Rods from God" was one of the advanced weapons concepts thought up by the Air Force during the "Star Wars" push in the late-80s. Jerry Pournelle talks about it in a couple of places on his blog.
Thanks for the clarification. I've read a lot of books and can't seem to keep them all straight in my head anymore. Forgetful.
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Thanks for the clarification. I've read a lot of books and can't seem to keep them all straight in my head anymore. Forgetful.
You're welcome. ^-^ I have the same problem, especially with books that I read as a kid. Sometimes I'll start reading something and think, "This is very familiar...." and it's because I read it before. :shrug:
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You're welcome. ^-^ I have the same problem, especially with books that I read as a kid. Sometimes I'll start reading something and think, "This is very familiar...." and it's because I read it before. :shrug:
I went and looked. I have Lucifer's Hammer and Footfall. :shrug:
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You would have to propel that rock with a sizeable amount of energy so that it would impact the earth and not just orbit around it.
Actually, no... it's easier to crash into the Earth than to put something in orbit about it.
How much energy was required for the Apollo vehicles to return to the earth? And they were by no means city destroyers. Any city destroying rock is going to have to be accelerated with a huge amount of energy.
The Apollo vehicles approached Earth at something north of 24,000 mph, which represents a whopping kinetic energy. All of that energy was bled off into the atmosphere by the ablative heat shield. Had they gone straight through the atmosphere without burning up, they'd have left a very large crater.
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Actually, no... it's easier to crash into the Earth than to put something in orbit about it.
ain't that the truth
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I went and looked. I have Lucifer's Hammer and Footfall. :shrug:
They are both great books! I re-read each of them every few years.
I mean, deliberately... not just by accident.
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They are both great books! I re-read each of them every few years.
I mean, deliberately... not just by accident.
The Greg Bear I was thinking of are Eon and Legacy. Sorta like Rama. Sorta not.
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Was that Footfall? Hammer of the Gods? I can't remember.
@Jeff Head included it as a weapon system in his book!
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Actually, no... it's easier to crash into the Earth than to put something in orbit about it.
The Apollo vehicles approached Earth at something north of 24,000 mph, which represents a whopping kinetic energy. All of that energy was bled off into the atmosphere by the ablative heat shield. Had they gone straight through the atmosphere without burning up, they'd have left a very large crater.
aiming it might be a bigger challenge
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I was shooting for tactical. Like dropsies. Any dang fool can play planet killer. ^-^
What-evurrrr!
I didn't mean that big. Just enough to give it an effective radius a couple times the diameter of the target area. It isn't like someone on the moon is going to throw rocks at Monaco or Lithuania, they'll be aiming at a bigger target, anyway, like Helmland Province, or Guangdong, or Yemen. If it's smaller than that, nuke it from orbit...
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Brianna Wu, a Dem, claims that Moon valuable militarily because rocks ‘have power of 100s of nuclear bombs’
A transgender-issues activist and Democratic candidate for Congress says the advent of the space tourism industry could give private corporations a “frightening amount of power” to destroy the Earth with rocks because of the Moon’s military importance.
Brianna Wu, a prominent “social justice warrior” in the “Gamergate” controversy who now is running for the House seat in Massachusetts’ 8th District, suggested in a since-deleted tweet that companies could drop rocks from the Moon.
“The moon is probably the most tactically valuable military ground for earth,” the tweet said. “Rocks dropped from there have power of 100s of nuclear bombs.”
SpaceX announced Monday it is planning to launch a tourism venture to the Moon in 2018.
Read More: http://www.isn-news.net/2017/03/congressional-candidate-moon-colonizing.html
Brianna Wu is a complete nutcase starting with the fact he is no woman. He is a surgically/chemically mutilated eunuch who thinks he's a woman.
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aiming it might be a bigger challenge
Not at all -- it's a straightforward launch window computation.
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Not at all -- it's a straightforward launch window computation.
Sure, but you will need mid-course corrections in all likelihood.
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Not at all -- it's a straightforward launch window computation.
You don't really run into any really unpredictable variables until you hit the atmosphere of earth.
Your speed is high enough that wind direction is meaningless. It really comes down to whether the rock will impact the surface, explode in the air, and if it explodes in the air will it be at a low enough altitude to do serious damage.
Plenty of titanium oxide on the moon, Is titanium resistant to extreme heating at hypersonic speeds?
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You don't really run into any really unpredictable variables until you hit the atmosphere of earth.
Midcourse corrections are reasonable. There's probably not enough time in-atmosphere to make significant corrections, but re-entry bodies are steerable.
Your speed is high enough that wind direction is meaningless. It really comes down to whether the rock will impact the surface, explode in the air, and if it explodes in the air will it be at a low enough altitude to do serious damage.
Plenty of titanium oxide on the moon, Is titanium resistant to extreme heating at hypersonic speeds?
Here you've hit upon the re-entry body problem -- it's a matter of heat dissipation vs. speed vs. time. Manned bodies are blunt. Missile warheads are sharp. For both cases, the heat dissipation works -- it's the angles in the middle that are problematic. (The seminal paper on the topic is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20151013182336/http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1958/naca-report-1381.pdf)
So a warhead-shaped projectile would be the proper choice.
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You don't really run into any really unpredictable variables until you hit the atmosphere of earth.
Your speed is high enough that wind direction is meaningless. It really comes down to whether the rock will impact the surface, explode in the air, and if it explodes in the air will it be at a low enough altitude to do serious damage.
Plenty of titanium oxide on the moon, Is titanium resistant to extreme heating at hypersonic speeds?
Titanium dioxide (Rutile) melts around 1800 degrees C.
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Sure, but you will need mid-course corrections in all likelihood.
It all depends on how 'surgical' you want the strike to be. If you have enough rock, say an anticipated radius of destruction 2 times the diameter of the intended target area or more, your success is more likely than just throwing something intending to take out a smaller area. in a situation where 'surgical' might mean the elimination of a major metro area, a little slop might get an extra country or two (thinking Europe or Africa, for instance). In larger countries an extra state or province. If you want precision, I'd think it would take something smaller, likely manufactured rather than cut loose as a chunk, and that can be maneuvered, both inbound, and possibly in atmosphere. (The 'Rods from god' approach to kinetic apocalypse.)
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Titanium dioxide (Rutile) melts around 1800 degrees C.
Then Tungsten it is.
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Then Tungsten it is.
Just factor in the ablation. Send some little ones over and see where they burn up...contact mass should be relatively calculable.
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The meteor that crashed into Russia was estimated to be about 55 feet in diameter, weighing 100,000 tons, at a speed of 46,000 mph, and had an energy of 500 kilotons, about 25 times the energy of “Fat Man” that exploded over Nagasaki.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html)
What would the size and speed of Brianna Wu’s rock be to have the energy of 100’s of nuclear bombs?
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The meteor that crashed into Russia was estimated to be about 55 feet in diameter, weighing 100,000 tons, at a speed of 46,000 mph, and had an energy of 500 kilotons, about 25 times the energy of “Fat Man” that exploded over Nagasaki.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html)
What would the size and speed of Brianna Wu’s rock be to have the energy of 100’s of nuclear bombs?
For reference, a 1000 kg rock traveling at the speed of Apollo 13 (~40,000 kph) has the energy of about 1.5 tons of TNT. You'd need a mass of 5000 kg to reach 1 kT.
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"Brianna Wu" is an avowed mentally ill nutcase, not just your regular nutter
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"Brianna Wu" is an avowed mentally ill nutcase, not just your regular nutter
Its elite nutbaggery.
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For reference, a 1000 kg rock traveling at the speed of Apollo 13 (~40,000 kph) has the energy of about 1.5 tons of TNT. You'd need a mass of 5000 kg to reach 1 kT.
If you dropped Brianna Wu from orbit, he/she/it would likely be able to take out a Wal-Mart
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Its elite nutbaggery.
not only is he/she/it an elitist nutbag, but a snobbish, holier-than-thou one.
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For reference, a 1000 kg rock traveling at the speed of Apollo 13 (~40,000 kph) has the energy of about 1.5 tons of TNT. You'd need a mass of 5000 kg to reach 1 kT.
So 20MT would be 2000 times that, or roughly 1.333 million kilos. Mare Basalts run about 3300 kg/m3, so it would take about 404 m3 to get a 20MT whack, not allowing for ablation.
Very roughly a 10 meter sphere should do the trick.
Highland rock (feldspathic) has a lower density, around 2650 Kg/m3, so it would take a larger sphere, and the impact breccia samples at about 2400 kg/m3 would have to be even larger, but I think would be more likely to fragment during atmospheric entry.
IF (and that's a big if) that 10 meter ball of basalt hit the surface without breaking up, that would be roughly a 7 mile radius with 5 psi of overpressure (roughly the 'kill' radius of the impact, with widespread serious injury and death). Expect total devastation in roughly a three mile diameter area (not adjusting for terrain) with rare survivors only in protected locations, most concrete buildings would collapse in the 20 psi overpressure, if the effects are equivalent to a groundburst nuke.
It would take some whoppers to be planet wreckers, but 30-50 ft. chunks could do some serious damage to populated areas.
Lunar rock density source: http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/CosmoSparks/July12/PSRD-Lunar-rock-densities.pdf (http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/CosmoSparks/July12/PSRD-Lunar-rock-densities.pdf)
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not only is he/she/it an elitist nutbag, but a snobbish, holier-than-thou one.
(Everyone should send her a pebble) :silly:
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For reference, a 1000 kg rock traveling at the speed of Apollo 13 (~40,000 kph) has the energy of about 1.5 tons of TNT. You'd need a mass of 5000 kg to reach 1 kT.
the 5000kg rock @ 40,000kph would have 7.5tons, not 1 kT
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the 5000kg rock @ 40,000kph would have 7.5tons, not 1 kT
You're quite right. In my little spreadsheet I forgot to convert from kph to m/sec.
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Titanium dioxide (Rutile) melts around 1800 degrees C.
Most of the lunar titanium is in ilmenite, which melts at only 1050 degrees C.
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You're quite right. In my little spreadsheet I forgot to convert from kph to m/sec.
I think the Lockheed Mars lander team has an opening for you :)
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I think the Lockheed Mars lander team has an opening for you :)
I used to love the Lunar Lander program. Do you think they'd take me?
And I landed the Shuttle Motion Base Simulator once. And it was survivable.
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I used to love the Lunar Lander program. Do you think they'd take me?
And I landed the Shuttle Motion Base Simulator once. And it was survivable.
Survivable. Maybe with Musk's team....
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Survivable. Maybe with Musk's team....
I swear! I didn't even pop a tire. The cross winds were murder. :whistle:
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the 5000kg rock @ 40,000kph would have 7.5tons, not 1 kT
Well, heck. I think we're going to need a bigger rock!
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Most of the lunar titanium is in ilmenite, which melts at only 1050 degrees C.
Oh. Well, that means more ablation, too...
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Well, heck. I think we're going to need a bigger rock!
Nah - free MIRV. :tongue2:
If you do the orbit right, so the rock is coming as near straight down as makes no difference, you aren't going to need worry too much about ablation. 100 miles isn't much resistance to something that moves through the entire depth of air in 15 seconds.
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Nah - free MIRV. :tongue2:
If you do the orbit right, so the rock is coming as near straight down as makes no difference, you aren't going to need worry too much about ablation. 100 miles isn't much resistance to something that moves through the entire depth of air in 15 seconds.
Use the basalt, it's more dense, and less likely to fragment. :tongue2:
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I swear! I didn't even pop a tire. The cross winds were murder. :whistle:
It's a long walk home.
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The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Actually, she isn't that nuts. This is something that has been explored by the US Military in many different ways. Kinetic Bombardment. If you are already up there, it is far more of an efficient way of attack that shooting rockets from continent to continent.
The nuts part comes from the slander that private companies, rather than governments, would do this. The only people with an incentive to do something like this would be a socialist/fascist government; in other words, a government run by hard left democrats like social justice warriors.
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The nuts part comes from the slander that private companies, rather than governments, would do this. The only people with an incentive to do something like this would be a socialist/fascist government; in other words, a government run by hard left democrats like social justice warriors.
The kind that would say "We'll take their oil"
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A Simple Targeting Procedure For Lunar Trans-Earth
Injection
Shane Robinson and David Geller†
Utah State University, Logan, Utah, 84322-4130, United States
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1120&context=spacegrant (http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1120&context=spacegrant)
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The meteor that crashed into Russia was estimated to be about 55 feet in diameter, weighing 100,000 tons, at a speed of 46,000 mph, and had an energy of 500 kilotons, about 25 times the energy of “Fat Man” that exploded over Nagasaki.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280920/Meteor-crashed-Russia-largest-space-rock-hit-earth-century-claim-scientists.html)
What would the size and speed of Brianna Wu’s rock be to have the energy of 100’s of nuclear bombs?
I know he (Wu) did not, but has anyone else considered the effort needed to build a mass driver that can fling rocks big enough to do mass damage. It would take years of concentrated effort and HUGE amounts of money to get the supporting infrastructure built on the moon to be able to do that. BY the time something like this could become a problem, I'm sure an easy solution will be available.
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I know he (Wu) did not, but has anyone else considered the effort needed to build a mass driver that can fling rocks big enough to do mass damage. It would take years of concentrated effort and HUGE amounts of money to get the supporting infrastructure built on the moon to be able to do that. BY the time something like this could become a problem, I'm sure an easy solution will be available.
But stuff is lighter on the moon, so you can just pick up a boulder at chuck it at earth. Right?
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But stuff is lighter on the moon, so you can just pick up a boulder at chuck it at earth. Right?
Right........ :silly:
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But stuff is lighter on the moon, so you can just pick up a boulder at chuck it at earth. Right?
Slow and steady wins the race. low constant acceleration, or just give it the right nudge (and trajectory) and let gravity do the rest. The movement of the earth isn't exactly a secret.
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But stuff is lighter on the moon, so you can just pick up a boulder at chuck it at earth. Right?
I was thinking Catapults.
(Actual I first thought Trebuchets, because Trebuchets are cool, but low gravity works against those)
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I was thinking Catapults.
(Actual I first thought Trebuchets, because Trebuchets are cool, but low gravity works against those)
Lunar trebuchets.... *drooling*
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Congressional candidate: Moon-colonizing companies could destroy cities by dropping rocks
Brianna Wu, a Dem, claims that Moon valuable militarily because rocks ‘have power of 100s of nuclear bombs’
Brianna Wu, a software engineer and video-game developer, sits at her workstation in Boston, in this July 25, 2016, file photo. Wu, the co-founder of a gaming software company who made headlines two years ago when she was threatened, said she wants to run for one of Massachusetts' nine U.S. House seats. Wu said her platform will focus on privacy rights and online harassment. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola, File)
Brianna Wu, a software engineer and video-game developer, sits at her workstation in Boston, in this July 25, 2016, file photo. Wu, the co-founder of a gaming software company who made headlines two years ago when she was threatened, said ... more >
By Bradford Richardson - The Washington Times - Tuesday, February 28, 2017
A transgender-issues activist and Democratic candidate for Congress says the advent of the space tourism industry could give private corporations a “frightening amount of power” to destroy the Earth with rocks because of the Moon’s military importance.
Brianna Wu, a prominent “social justice warrior” in the “Gamergate” controversy who now is running for the House seat in Massachusetts’ 8th District, suggested in a since-deleted tweet that companies could drop rocks from the Moon.
“The moon is probably the most tactically valuable military ground for earth,” the tweet said. “Rocks dropped from there have power of 100s of nuclear bombs.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/28/brianna-wu-claims-companies-could-destroy-cities-b/
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The democrats must have some requirement that you have to be a looney toon to become a member. The party is absolutely overrun by them. :woohoo: ***hair on fire 10631
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Well, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress)...
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I was thinking Catapults.
(Actual I first thought Trebuchets, because Trebuchets are cool, but low gravity works against those)
Electromagnetic catapults, a.k.a. mass drivers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver)
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In other (FAKE) news, Drug suppliers are struggling to keep up with Bostonian demand for a new drug that combines the effects of LSD and crack cocaine... :silly:
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The real humor in this is that this candidate thinks the space tourism industry would lead to the earth being destroyed from the moon.
Apparently, not too much thought was given as to where the tourists would come from after planet wide destruction. I think it would be bad for business, personally.
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The real humor in this is that this candidate thinks the space tourism industry would lead to the earth being destroyed from the moon.
Apparently, not too much thought was given as to where the tourists would come from after planet wide destruction. I think it would be bad for business, personally.
The danger would come only when there was a large permanent lunar population able to provide for themselves without earth. At that point people begin to grumble about independence
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I know he (Wu) did not, but has anyone else considered the effort needed to build a mass driver that can fling rocks big enough to do mass damage. It would take years of concentrated effort and HUGE amounts of money to get the supporting infrastructure built on the moon to be able to do that. BY the time something like this could become a problem, I'm sure an easy solution will be available.
It would be easier to use Near Earth Asteroids than moon rocks
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It would be easier to use Near Earth Asteroids than moon rocks
They're already moving and just need a nudge in the right direction.
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"The Earth is obstructing my view. I must blow it up"
-Marvin the Martian
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It would be easier to use Near Earth Asteroids than moon rocks
Yeah, but what a waste of a chunk of nickel/iron. Chondrites might fragment easier, and that just wouldn't have the same impact. (pun intended!)