The Briefing Room
General Category => Military/Defense News => Topic started by: rangerrebew on January 20, 2017, 12:03:30 pm
-
Army Picks Sig Sauer's P320 Handgun to Replace M9 Service Pistol
Military.com | Jan 19, 2017 | by Matthew Cox and Hope Hodge Seck
LAS VEGAS -- The U.S. Army on Thursday awarded Sig Sauer a contract worth $580 million to make the next service pistol based on the company's P320 handgun.
Sig Sauer beat out Glock Inc., FN America and Beretta USA, the maker of the current M9 9mm service pistol, in the competition for the Modular Handgun System, or MHS, program.
"We are both humbled and proud that the P320 was selected by the U.S. Army as its weapon of choice," Ron Cohen, chief executive officer of Sig Sauer, said in a statement to Military.com here at SHOT Show, the world's largest gun show, taking place this week in the city.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/19/army-picks-sig-sauer-replace-m9-service-pistol.html
-
In their statements, Army and Sig officials didn't specify what caliber the new Sig Sauer pistol will be.
??
9mm Luger
357 SIG
40 S&W
45 Auto
??
https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p320/
(https://www.sigsauer.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x303/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/3/2/320ca-9-tacops.jpg)
(https://www.sigsauer.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x303/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/3/2/320f-9-bss-rx.jpg)
(https://www.sigsauer.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x303/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/3/2/320c-9-bss-rx.jpg)
(https://www.sigsauer.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x303/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/3/2/320f-9-bss-tacops.jpg)
-
Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?
Shouldn't go messing with perfection.
-
I like Sigs. Usually use the P556.
-
My Son has a P938 that I really like.
-
Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?
Shouldn't go messing with perfection.
There's nothing at all wrong with John Browning's timeless design. I own two of them, in fact. God love 'em.
But from a modern military perspective, there are a few issues: weight, capacity, condition-readiness, and accessorizablity, among them. Modern polymer frame pistols are far lighter, have greater round capacity (16+1 or more, chambered in 9mm), can be carried safely in ready-fire condition without external hammer or safety devices, are able to accept rail-mounted sights and lights, and are easier to field-strip and clean.
-
I like Sigs. Usually use the P556.
I have a P228 I like. My granddaughter has her eyes on it--she shoots golf balls with it at 20 yards.
-
There's nothing at all wrong with John Browning's timeless design. I own two of them, in fact. God love 'em.
But from a modern military perspective, there are a few issues: weight, capacity, condition-readiness, and accessorizablity, among them. Modern polymer frame pistols are far lighter, have greater round capacity (16+1 or more, chambered in 9mm), can be carried safely in ready-fire condition without external hammer or safety devices, are able to accept rail-mounted sights and lights, and are easier to field-strip and clean.
Para Ordinance adds appx 1/8 in to the grip width for a staggered magazine. Greater Round Cap. issue solved WITHOUT using that castrated POS 9mm. When the 9mm was being pushed in the 7/11 gun magazines it was being touted as 'The Wonder 9'.
Jeff Cooper responded that yes, it was a wonder cartridge.
You shot the enemy/assailant 3 times and Wondered if he'd fall over or just laugh it off and kill you.
As for easier to field strip and clean, what do you have to do to get it apart that easier than a 1911?
Drop it on the floor?
-
" Put them in a sandy environment like the middle east, and you have trouble."
The 1st Government model 1911 I owned would rattle when you shook it.
Tighten the slide to frame tolerance up and yes, packing it with sand is going to be a negative.
Those $3000 1911s at a target shoot are not what I'm advocating for in the field military use.
And on the issue of mounting sights and lights on a pistol, that makes them a rather slick issue of getting them out of the holster.
Can't see well enough at night over your pistol?
Our military have drop down Helmet mounted Night Vision.
Lights up the entire environment in the dark. Not just the target.
-
Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?
The only thing wrong with it is there is no kickback money available to anyone that supports it. Other than that,it is mechanical and ballistic perfection.
Shouldn't go messing with perfection.
The only messing I have seen done with it is tuning it for specific purposes. I'm just grateful I have a few variants of it myself if push ever comes to shove,and feel sorry for the GI's of today who have no such option. I have personally been carrying or owning at least one every day of my life for over 50 years. When I'm not carrying a 1911 of some sort,I am carrying a 44 Special with a 3 inch barrel.
-
There's nothing at all wrong with John Browning's timeless design. I own two of them, in fact. God love 'em.
But from a modern military perspective, there are a few issues: weight, capacity, condition-readiness, and accessorizablity, among them. Modern polymer frame pistols are far lighter, have greater round capacity (16+1 or more, chambered in 9mm), can be carried safely in ready-fire condition without external hammer or safety devices, are able to accept rail-mounted sights and lights, and are easier to field-strip and clean.
@andy58-in-nh
That is one thing that constantly amazes me. The alleged Defense Dept (ran by civilians,I might add) decided the typical American soldier was too stupid to be able to figure out how to carry a 1911A1 with a round chambers and the safety on AS IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE CARRIED,and yet they then turn around and adopt imports in 9mm,which has famously been described as "A 45ACP set on stun",and then commence to put every bell and whistle they can find on it,right up to ship to shore radios.
You pull it out of the holster,use your thump to disengage the safety,and then you pull the trigger. How freaking complicated is that?
-
I have a P320. It is a fantastic firearm. They have a unique feature where the serialized portion of the gun is the internal mechanism that includes the trigger. This means you can swap out the grip/frame or slide for one of another size, and those parts can even be shipped without going through an FFL. The firearm is striker fired (no hammer), and has a nice trigger that, although a little stiffer than some competing firearms, is very appropriate for military and police use.
1911s are nice range gunsl I love them, but they are a little too finicky for me to choose one as a self defense weapon, IMHO. You can tune them, or buy one pre-tuned, to get them pretty reliable, but they'll never match the reliability of more modern pistols such as those from Glock, Sig Sauer, HK, S&W, etc. Put them in a sandy environment like the middle east, and you have trouble.
SAY WHAT?????? You can drop a 1911A1 in the mud,pick it up,beat it against your boot to knock the mud loose,and it will function flawlessly. It is probably THE most reliable semi-auto handgun ever made.
I used to shoot competitively (IDPA). At the time, people at the matches were primarily shooting Glocks, revolvers, or 1911s. Every match, I saw some guy with a $3000 1911 dealing with some sort of malfunction. Rarely saw the Glock or revolver guys dealing with this.
Duhhh,those are race guns,designed for minimum tolerances to be used while playing games. Nobody but a fool or someone who didn't have access to any other gun would consider taking one into combat. They have as much in common with a issue combat pistol as a deuce and a half does a Porsche 911.
-
I am not sure why you are bringing up sights and lights. Regarding the reliability, it's not really a debatable point. It's been proven in testing and individual and organzational experience with millions of rounds of ammunition, which is why military and police departments don't issue 1911s as duty weapons.
@Scutter
I don't know who told you that,but he sure as hell wasn't a friend. Friends don't lie to friends about survival tools,and that has to be one the biggest lies ever told.
1911A1's weren't issued to cops as duty weapons and were pulled from the military because the civilian asswipes in procurement who never heard a shot getting fired in anger or fear had appropriation money to spend,kickbacks to pocket,and wanted new toys. They used the excuse of "loaded guns with cocked hammers are dangerous and the cretins we hire to fight for us or protect us are too stupid to operate them safely!"
I guess you aren't aware that the shooters in Delta Force all carry one version or another of the 1911A1?
But hey,what they hell do professional soldiers who are literally authorized to carry any kind of handgun they want know about handguns,right?
As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?
-
Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?
Shouldn't go messing with perfection.
This was done while Imam Obama :ODIO: was still in office. The military are lucky the M9 wasn't replace by daisy BB guns. :whistle:
-
@sneakypete
That's great, you carry whatever your comfortable with.
Nobody sane can argue with that.
Personally I have seen way too many people having to clear a F2E or F2F with their 1911 to ever carry one.
In over 50 years of carrying and shooting one,even one I custom built to handle "Banzi!" loads so hot GI ball wouldn't even cycle the slide, I have never had ONE single failure to feed or failure to fire,with the obvious exception of firing military ball in my custom Combat Commander. Many thousands of those loads were loads I loaded myself,and were both 185 and 200 grain wadcutters. The military 1911's,the old "shake and clank" leftovers from WW-2 and the Korean war never ONCE failed to feed or eject a military ball round unless there was some defect with the issue magazine. Usually bent fed lips or a very weak spring.
And that doesn't even begin to cover the other disadvantages, like the limited capacity magazine.
ROFLMAO! How many hits do you need to make on a man with a 45 ACP to take him down? Unlike the 9mm ball round,where it might take 15 rounds and then you might have to use your knife.
In the military or a PD you have 8 rounds plus at least two spare mags ,and then the purpose of the handgun is to keep you alive long enough to get to a rifle. In civilian life,just how many rounds do you need? It ain't like you are fighting off charging hordes of Red Chinese PLA soldiers.
IDPA is all about using stanndard self defense weapons, so these wouldn't be some fancy modified race guns.
Well,I guess I don't own any "standard defense gun" other than my 44 Rossi DAO 5 shot 44. I bought it specifically because it didn't have a rear sight or anything else that could "hang" when pulling it out of my pocket. It came with a rounded butt and rubber grips and an ejection rod shroud and bobbed hammer,so all that was already taken care of before I got it. It's purely for self-defense. If I can't pop a man in the head at 10 feet or so with it without even consciously aiming,I deserve to die. I have actually shot and killed 3 snakes with it. One swimming in the water so all I could see was his head,and the other two were slithering away from me. Hit all three with the first shot.
I hit what I shoot at,and have never felt the need to even carry a spare mag for any of my 1911's or a speed loader or even loose rounds for my 44 Special revolver. I honestly can't picture a scenario in civilian life where I will need more than the 5 rounds my revolver holds or the 8 rounds my 1911 holds. By the time I lay 5 attackers out dead,any others that were with them when it started have already heard their mamas calling them,and are hauling ass for home.
I was once threatened by 6 gangbangers when living in Denver. One had been inside the restaurant where I normally ate dinner,giving a waitress a load of crap to the point where she was crying,so I made him give her a 20 dollar tip and apologize before he left. A half-hour or so later when I walked out to my bike to leave,he had returned with 5 of his cholo's to teach me a lesson. I just reached into my coat pocket to grab my 44,backed up against the brick wall,and smiled and told them "I have a 5 shot gun in my coat pocket loaded with Valmet exploding bullets. I am going to gut shoot the first 5 of you that get here just to hear you scream,and then I'm going to beat the sixth one to death with the empty gun." Then I just sat down with my back to the wall and told them to take their time deciding who was going to lead the charge because I had all night and nothing better to do. It didn't take them long to start backing away,and then turn and haul ass. And I never once took the Bulldog out of my pocket.
I could and was willing to do that because I couldn't see any weapons,and it was obvious they thought a lone white man would be afraid of 6 cholo's. If any of them had had even a knife or a club,I would have just pulled and started exploding heads. I'm tolerate to a point,but once that point has passed,I don't play.
You should take your 1911 and go to an IDPA match some time. They are a lot of fun, and usually open to anyone who can legally carry. You will likely have to go to a short safety briefing first, so call in advance.
Too old to move like I used to move,and my eyesight ain't what it used to be. Plus I get irritated when children try to tell me I shoot too fast. Had that happen when I qualified for my CCW permit maybe 20 years ago. I asked him "Why?" He said because it was unsafe and inaccurate. I told him "Look at the target and tell me how many rounds are out of the black." That left him with nothing to say,so he went to get the retired Colonel who ran the range to come over and deal with me. The Colonel looked at the target and told the guy to leave me alone.
-
Well, I guess you have been blessed by the god's of the 1911, because there's not a (honest) person on the planet who can make the same claim. Enjoy your day.
@Scutter
ROFLMAO! You actually think you are important enough to me for me to construct lies over something like this?
Truth to tell,you are one of the very few people I have ever seen or heard calling 1911A1's unreliable. I am NOT going to say you are lying,though. I'm just saying you are ignorant enough to really believe that crap yourself because you hang around with the "game" shooters,and there is nothing boys love to talk about more than their trendy new toys.
-
@Scutter
I don't know who told you that,but he sure as hell wasn't a friend. Friends don't lie to friends about survival tools,and that has to be one the biggest lies ever told.
1911A1's weren't issued to cops as duty weapons and were pulled from the military because the civilian asswipes in procurement who never heard a shot getting fired in anger or fear had appropriation money to spend,kickbacks to pocket,and wanted new toys. They used the excuse of "loaded guns with cocked hammers are dangerous and the cretins we hire to fight for us or protect us are too stupid to operate them safely!"
I guess you aren't aware that the shooters in Delta Force all carry one version or another of the 1911A1?
But hey,what they hell do professional soldiers who are literally authorized to carry any kind of handgun they want know about handguns,right?
As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?
But can you field strip a Schnauzer?
-
Sure as shootin' there's a lot of hot lead flying here.
-
But can you field strip a Schnauzer?
@endicom
Not into dogs,but I guess everybody is entitled to a hobby.
-
Well, I guess you have been blessed by the god's of the 1911, because there's not a (honest) person on the planet who can make the same claim. Enjoy your day.
Actually, I have never had a malfunction with a 1911, either, though I doubt I have put as many rounds through the pipe as @sneakypete. They are the AK of semiauto handguns. Not the most accurate I have ever shot, but good enough at reasonable ranges, and they can handle a lot of crap in the environment--which is basically what they were designed for, aside from having more terminal energy than many counterparts.
The same 'rattle' from larger tolerances lets them function with a lot less trouble than other close tolerance arms which have trouble when they get dirty.
-
Actually, I have never had a malfunction with a 1911, either, though I doubt I have put as many rounds through the pipe as @sneakypete. They are the AK of semiauto handguns. Not the most accurate I have ever shot, but good enough at reasonable ranges, and they can handle a lot of crap in the environment--which is basically what they were designed for, aside from having more terminal energy than many counterparts.
The same 'rattle' from larger tolerances lets them function with a lot less trouble than other close tolerance arms which have trouble when they get dirty.
@Smokin Joe
Anybody that thinks the 1911's are fussy or delicate needs to read the pre-WW-1 field tests done at the army proving grounds prior to WW-1 The tests included burying them in sand and mud,then pulling them out of the ground beating them against their boots and shaking them to loosen the mud or sand,and then firing them. IIRC,the Colt 1911A1 was the only handgun being tested for army acceptance that passed all the tests.
These test came about after the failure of the army 38 caliber revolvers to stop the charging Moro tribesmen in the Philippines during the Muslim uprising there after the Spanish-American War. The army ended up shipping old surplus 1873 Colt SSA revolvers there in 45 Long Colt caliber there as a stop gap measure. The army clearly realized they were going to need a modern sidearm in 45 caliber to replace the Colt 38 double action revolvers they had recently adopted. I know both Colt and Savage both produced samples to be tested,but after all these years I can't remember who else presented 45 caliber autoloaders for the tests.
I THINK Colonel Townsend Whelen was the officer in charge of the tests,but it's been so long I am no longer sure. I have the hardback book that describes these tests and shows charts,pictures,and results of the tests of both the 1911 and then the 30/06 cartridge as the army was going away from the 30/40 Krag rifles and the 30/03 Springfields in favor of a more powerful cartridge for the 03 Springfield rifles. They also did a lot of testing on firing various bullets straight up into the air as well as at varying angles,and testing the impact when the bullets hit. Pretty interesting stuff if you are a gun nut,but most likely boring to everyone else.
-
@Smokin Joe
Anybody that thinks the 1911's are fussy or delicate needs to read the pre-WW-1 field tests done at the army proving grounds prior to WW-1 The tests included burying them in sand and mud,then pulling them out of the ground beating them against their boots and shaking them to loosen the mud or sand,and then firing them. IIRC,the Colt 1911A1 was the only handgun being tested for army acceptance that passed all the tests.
These test came about after the failure of the army 38 caliber revolvers to stop the charging Moro tribesmen in the Philippines during the Muslim uprising there after the Spanish-American War. The army ended up shipping old surplus 1873 Colt SSA revolvers there in 45 Long Colt caliber there as a stop gap measure. The army clearly realized they were going to need a modern sidearm in 45 caliber to replace the Colt 38 double action revolvers they had recently adopted. I know both Colt and Savage both produced samples to be tested,but after all these years I can't remember who else presented 45 caliber autoloaders for the tests.
I THINK Colonel Townsend Whelen was the officer in charge of the tests,but it's been so long I am no longer sure. I have the hardback book that describes these tests and shows charts,pictures,and results of the tests of both the 1911 and then the 30/06 cartridge as the army was going away from the 30/40 Krag rifles and the 30/03 Springfields in favor of a more powerful cartridge for the 03 Springfield rifles. They also did a lot of testing on firing various bullets straight up into the air as well as at varying angles,and testing the impact when the bullets hit. Pretty interesting stuff if you are a gun nut,but most likely boring to everyone else.
I'm a gun nut. If you find the title of those test results I'd be interested, and I'll do the search to find a copy. I horse traded my last 1911, but I have the Springfield with M84 scope my dad brought back from Korea. I love that rifle, it hasn't had many down the pipe, but they have all gone where I wanted them to go. If one of my grandkids don't get it my nephew will. I consider it a family heirloom.
The .30-06 is one of my favorite calibers, and the one I have taken deer with since I moved out to rifle country nearly 40 years ago.
I found a couple of .30-40 krag bullets (just the bullet) out near Fort Buford, with the jacket rusted. Those must have been hell on barrels.
-
I'm a gun nut. If you find the title of those test results I'd be interested, and I'll do the search to find a copy.
No promises. I have boxes full of books in strorage,and I lent some of the technical books to a friend of mine that I taught to build rifles. If I run across it I will let you know,but you can probably have better luck doing a google search.
I horse traded my last 1911, but I have the Springfield with M84 scope my dad brought back from Korea. I love that rifle,
What's not to love about a 03? I got hard up for money several years ago and sold mine,but I still have a "beater" 30/40 Krag,a "beater"1917 Enfield with a butchered stock and shot-out bore,and a restored WW-2 dated Winchester M-1 Garand with the 4 groove barrel. Back before my eyes started failing,I could shoot pieces off of you from as far away as I could see you with that Garand using the issue open sights. Also have a Model 52 Winchester and a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester in 30/06,and both of them are pretty sweet shooters,too. Since I almost never shoot anymore I really should sell them,but I don't need the money and they don't eat anything.
I also had a Siamese Mauser I built while in gunsmith school that was chambered for a wildcat round I designed that used a blown out and tapered to 375 caliber Winchester 348 case that pretty much created 375 H&H Magnum velocities in a medium-length bolt action receiver. Had a milled half-octagonal and half-round bull barrel to break down the vibrations that was 26 inches long,and set in a birds eye maple stock I built for it. Ended up giving that one away to a friend maybe 15 years ago. I THINK he may have shot it once or twice,but for the most part it has never been out of his gun safe since. He mostly shoots old black powder target rifles,though. Stuff like 50 calibers with 120 grains of black powder behind the very long,very heavy cast bullets.
I found a couple of .30-40 krag bullets (just the bullet) out near Fort Buford, with the jacket rusted. Those must have been hell on barrels.
I don't know what to tell you about that. It's almost impossible to find surplus 30/40 Krag ammo anymore,but all that I have seen had brass cases and jacketed bullets.
15-20 years ago there was a lot of European,Central American,and South American/Israeli surplus .308/762 stuff coming in the country,and some of it had steel cases. I had a STG-58 FN-FAL at the time that I had put together out of a demilled parts gun using a new semi-auto receiver and a new barrel,but I wouldn't shoot any steel cased stuff in it. At the time you could buy a case of 1,000 rounds of surplus 7.62 military ball ammo for 140 bucks,and it was sealed in 200 round battle packs in wooden crates. AR-15 and 9MM ammo was also plentiful and so cheap it was cheaper to buy it than it was to buy the empty brass to reload it. I ran some of the surplus stuff through my chronograph,and the Israeli stuff was pretty hot. Probably too hot to shoot in a M1A. The FAL's had an adjustable gas system so you could "tune it" for the loads you were shooting. I also had an Israeli FAL at the time with a semi-auto receiver,but it still had the forged steel chrome-lined MG barrel on it,so I shot the hot ammo through that one. Have a good friend that owns a commercial rifle range with pop up targets out to 500 meters,and I could shoot there for free anytime I wanted,and I can pretty much do that in my yard if I want,but no pop-up targets. Got sick and most of that stuff,including the ammo,got sold off to pay medical bills,and I pretty much quit shooting. I discovered the chronograph stored away in a cardboard box a few days ago. I had forgotten I still have it. My shooting friends used to give me ammo for Christmas.(G)
-
Anybody that thinks the 1911's are fussy or delicate needs to read the pre-WW-1 field tests done at the army proving grounds prior to WW-1 The tests included burying them in sand and mud,then pulling them out of the ground beating them against their boots and shaking them to loosen the mud or sand,and then firing them. IIRC,the Colt 1911A1 was the only handgun being tested for army acceptance that passed all the tests.
These test came about after the failure of the army 38 caliber revolvers to stop the charging Moro tribesmen in the Philippines during the Muslim uprising there after the Spanish-American War. The army ended up shipping old surplus 1873 Colt SSA revolvers there in 45 Long Colt caliber there as a stop gap measure. The army clearly realized they were going to need a modern sidearm in 45 caliber to replace the Colt 38 double action revolvers they had recently adopted. I know both Colt and Savage both produced samples to be tested,but after all these years I can't remember who else presented 45 caliber autoloaders for the tests.
I THINK Colonel Townsend Whelen was the officer in charge of the tests,but it's been so long I am no longer sure. I have the hardback book that describes these tests and shows charts,pictures,and results of the tests of both the 1911 and then the 30/06 cartridge as the army was going away from the 30/40 Krag rifles and the 30/03 Springfields in favor of a more powerful cartridge for the 03 Springfield rifles. They also did a lot of testing on firing various bullets straight up into the air as well as at varying angles,and testing the impact when the bullets hit. Pretty interesting stuff if you are a gun nut,but most likely boring to everyone else.
@sneakypete
I found the report of the 1907 Pistol Trials. Like you said, pretty boring if you're not a gun nut. http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf)
Also the NRA Museum had an interesting pdf on it as well. http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940450/1907%20pistol%20trials.pdf (http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940450/1907%20pistol%20trials.pdf)
I thought some of the testing was also in Hatcher's Notebook, but alas, my copy is loaned out.
-
Old Western Scrounger sells 30-40Krag ammo.
30 Army (30-40 Krag) 220GR SP
.30 Army (.30-40 Krag) Model 1898. 220GR Correct headstamp. Box of 20. NO ETA
$39.95
http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=c2d8cc3f7ca42a4e38930a353ff94be1&keyword=30-40 (http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=c2d8cc3f7ca42a4e38930a353ff94be1&keyword=30-40)
@sneakypete
-
@sneakypete
I thought some of the testing was also in Hatcher's Notebook, but alas, my copy is loaned out.
@Elderberry
HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK! THAT is the book I was thinking of,and couldn't remember the name. Fascinating reading for anal loons like reloaders and gunsmiths,but a real snoozer for most people. I think I read mine from cover to cover at least twice.
Speaking of anal,is there anybody on the planet more anal than bench rest shouters? Competitive skeet and trap shooters come close,but I don't think the bench rest boys are in any danger of losing their crowns.
-
Old Western Scrounger sells 30-40Krag ammo.
30 Army (30-40 Krag) 220GR SP
.30 Army (.30-40 Krag) Model 1898. 220GR Correct headstamp. Box of 20. NO ETA
$39.95
http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=c2d8cc3f7ca42a4e38930a353ff94be1&keyword=30-40 (http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=c2d8cc3f7ca42a4e38930a353ff94be1&keyword=30-40)
@sneakypete
@Elderberry
YIKES! That has to be modern reproduction stuff. I'm more than a little shocked it is that cheap. LOTS of people used to think the 30/40 Krag and the 300 Savage were the perfect deer calibers. I still know people who deer hunt with a Model 99 Savage chambered in 300 Savage.
-
@sneakypete
I found the report of the 1907 Pistol Trials. Like you said, pretty boring if you're not a gun nut. http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf)
Also the NRA Museum had an interesting pdf on it as well. http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940450/1907%20pistol%20trials.pdf (http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940450/1907%20pistol%20trials.pdf)
I thought some of the testing was also in Hatcher's Notebook, but alas, my copy is loaned out.
Thanks for the links! --and the head's up on Hatcher's Notebook!
-
@Elderberry
HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK! THAT is the book I was thinking of,and couldn't remember the name. Fascinating reading for anal loons like reloaders and gunsmiths,but a real snoozer for most people. I think I read mine from cover to cover at least twice.
Speaking of anal,is there anybody on the planet more anal than bench rest shouters? Competitive skeet and trap shooters come close,but I don't think the bench rest boys are in any danger of losing their crowns.
I've never competed, but I got the bug, chasing tight groups once many years ago. I friend from the old neighborhood came by one day and gave me a 95 Chilean Mauser. He didn't want it cause it didn't have a 29" bbl. I did my first rebarrel job on it. I put a Madsen MG barrel on it and kept it 7mm Mauser. I drilled & tapped it for a scope and turned down the bolt handle. First time for me for all of this. I mounted only a 4 power scope on it. And I chased, and chased and chased the groups down until I could shoot tight clover leafs, almost ragged 1 holers with it. To this day, those were the tightest groups I have ever shot.
@sneakypete
-
I've never competed, but I got the bug, chasing tight groups once many years ago. I friend from the old neighborhood came by one day and gave me a 95 Chilean Mauser. He didn't want it cause it didn't have a 29" bbl. I did my first rebarrel job on it. I put a Madsen MG barrel on it and kept it 7mm Mauser. I drilled & tapped it for a scope and turned down the bolt handle. First time for me for all of this. I mounted only a 4 power scope on it. And I chased, and chased and chased the groups down until I could shoot tight clover leafs, almost ragged 1 holers with it. To this day, those were the tightest groups I have ever shot.
@sneakypete
@Elderberry
No surprise there. Think about it for a minute. Many years ago your eyes were sharper,your breathing was steadier,and your muscles could be counted on to do what you wanted them to do. Plus you didn't have to look for a urinal every 30 minutes,so you weren't so stressed.
Not that *I* have to worry about such things,mind you.
-
The contract will contain a price “ceiling,” the Army said, the kind of cost control businessman Donald Trump has embraced as he stings the defense industry over cost overruns. Sig Sauer will provide the guns, accessories and ammo for no more than $580 million.
Next the Army will begin operational test-shooting aimed at sending the weapon to soldiers later this year.
At Mr. Mattis‘ confirmation hearing a week earlier, Ms. Ernst used much of her allotted time to condemn what she believes is the poor state of the armed forces’ small arms.
Her target was not just the 30-year-old Beretta. The Army’s M4 carbine, its mainstay rifle, is often criticized by front-line combatants as prone to jamming and as lacking firepower.
“The Army can’t even figure out how to replace the M9 pistol, first issued in 1982,” the senator told Mr. Mattis. “Take a look at their 350-page micromanaging requirements document if you want to know why it’s taking so long to get this accomplished. Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”
In the fall of 2015, Mr. McCain became so frustrated by the long march to find what should be a simple procurement he issued a special report, “America’s Most Wasted: Army’s Costly Misfire.”
He said the Army had spent 10 years preparing a competition for a $500 gun.
“The Army has managed to create entirely new acquisition problems for what should be a simple, straightforward purchase of a commercially available item,” Mr. McCain said.
“The Army’s effort to buy a new handgun has already taken 10 years and produced nothing but more than 350 page[s of] requirements micromanaging extremely small unimportant details and Byzantine rules and processes the Army wants followed, many of which are unnecessary or anticompetitive,” he said.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/)
-
Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”
I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.
-
I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.
Depreciated doctrine. Works fine if your oppo is sane - but the scum don't care for their wounded until and unless they win.
-
I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.
That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...
-
That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...
I would think listening to you fellow soldiers scream in pain while you tried to ignore them to at least be a little distracting, perhaps even give pause to moving past your current cover.
-
That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...
@Smokin Joe
A good hit is a good hit,and I have never seen or heard of a good hit not killing the enemy.
Having said that,I never personally gave a damn if they were dead or not. All I really cared about was "are they any longer a danger to me or my teammates?"
If they weren't,I then preferred them alive and screaming their hearts out in pain. That type of thing tends to make the living and mobile enemy lose a lot of their enthusiasm about charging you again.
-
I would think listening to you fellow soldiers scream in pain while you tried to ignore them to at least be a little distracting, perhaps even give pause to moving past your current cover.
@thackney
BINGO!
-
I was in the military when they took our M-14 and gave us a plastic gun.
The plastic gun is better for spray and pray operations. For anything other than that I prefer the M-14 hands down!
-
@Scutter
As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?
I spent a few years in the USMC so I am trained on a 911 but that was 40+ years ago. These days I like a double action revolver. I only get 6 shots but I know every time I squeeze the trigger something is going to happen. lol, I do have a semi-auto Glock in the gun safe but I have never fired it.
Never heard anything bad about a well maintained 911. All guns will eventually ware out, judging a weapon on a worn out one is dishonest and foolish.
I am still pissed at gov for destroying most of its' inventory of M-14. I wanted one! Happily the Marines kept their M-14. The Marines know a good weapon when they see one.
-
Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?
Shouldn't go messing with perfection.
It's "perfection" for a limited number of shooters, mostly older ones who grew up with it and have some sort of attachment to it. For many others -- including a lot of older people who also grew up with it -- it has bad ergonomics and is difficult to shoot well. And for everyone, it carries a limited amount of ammo.
I was issued the 1911 myself, and didn't like it. When we went to the Beretta 92, shooting scores went up across the board. There are some great modern pistols that include things like swappable backstraps that make the weapon far more ergonomical to a wider range of shooters, etc.... The vast majority of people will shoot much better with such a weapon than they will with a 1911.
Again, that's not to say that the 1911 isn't a great gun for some people. It is. But it's a limited number, and takes a lot more range time to become proficient with one.
-
I spent a few years in the USMC so I am trained on a 911 but that was 40+ years ago. These days I like a double action revolver. I only get 6 shots but I know every time I squeeze the trigger something is going to happen. lol, I do have a semi-auto Glock in the gun safe but I have never fired it.
Frowning at you right now.
You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?
-
The contract will contain a price “ceiling,” the Army said, the kind of cost control businessman Donald Trump has embraced as he stings the defense industry over cost overruns. Sig Sauer will provide the guns, accessories and ammo for no more than $580 million.
Next the Army will begin operational test-shooting aimed at sending the weapon to soldiers later this year.
At Mr. Mattis‘ confirmation hearing a week earlier, Ms. Ernst used much of her allotted time to condemn what she believes is the poor state of the armed forces’ small arms.
Her target was not just the 30-year-old Beretta. The Army’s M4 carbine, its mainstay rifle, is often criticized by front-line combatants as prone to jamming and as lacking firepower.
“The Army can’t even figure out how to replace the M9 pistol, first issued in 1982,” the senator told Mr. Mattis. “Take a look at their 350-page micromanaging requirements document if you want to know why it’s taking so long to get this accomplished. Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”
In the fall of 2015, Mr. McCain became so frustrated by the long march to find what should be a simple procurement he issued a special report, “America’s Most Wasted: Army’s Costly Misfire.”
He said the Army had spent 10 years preparing a competition for a $500 gun.
“The Army has managed to create entirely new acquisition problems for what should be a simple, straightforward purchase of a commercially available item,” Mr. McCain said.
“The Army’s effort to buy a new handgun has already taken 10 years and produced nothing but more than 350 page[s of] requirements micromanaging extremely small unimportant details and Byzantine rules and processes the Army wants followed, many of which are unnecessary or anticompetitive,” he said.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/)
I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15. It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.
I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.
-
Frowning at you right now.
You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?
Or just sell it. If you have a gun that you don't like/don't shoot, why keep it at all? I'm not a huge fan of Glocks myself, but they're fine guns and lots of people would take it off his hands for a reasonable price.
-
I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15. It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.
I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.
I have this from several years ago. I cannot vouch for it's accuracy nor can I cite a source. Kinda worthless, I guess.
Alabama- centerfire
Alaska- centerfire
Alberta- .23 and up centerfire
Arizona- centerfire
Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire
California- centerfire
Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards
Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area
Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader
Florida- centerfire
Georgia- .22 and up centerfire
Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think
Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?)
Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol onlyIndiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols
Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state.
Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum)
Kentucky- centerfire
Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire
Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up!
Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though.
Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs
Mass- Shotgun/ML
Michigan- centerfire in certain areas
Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire
Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find
Missouri- centerfire
Montana- No restrictions
Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards
Nevada- .22 centerfire and up
New Hampshire- centerfire
New Jersey- shotgun only
New Mexico- centerfire
New York- centerfire
North Carolina- No restrictions
North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire
Nova Scotia- .23 and up
Ohio- Shotgun/ML
Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet
Ontario- centerfire
Oregon- .22 centerfire and upPennsylvania- centerfire
Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up
Rhode Island- shotgun/ML*
Saskatchewan- .24 and up
South Carolina- centerfire
South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME
Tennessee- centerfire
Texas- centerfire
Utah- centerfire
Vermont- No restriction
Virginia- .23 centerfire and up
Washington- .24 centerfire and up
West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire
Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up
Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up
-
Frowning at you right now.
You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?
LOL, I can't argue with you cause when you are right you are right.
I've got few in the safe that I need to get a little practice on. I used to go to the range every 3 or 4 months back in the day. Now not so much. However with the gun grabbers out of power it might be safe to by ammo and go to the range again.
-
I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15. It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.
I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.
You can use it in Idaho, but most consider it too small for deer. Works on varmints of a variety of sizes though quite well.
-
You can use it in Idaho, but most consider it too small for deer. Works on varmints of a variety of sizes though quite well.
A properly placed projectile from a .223 will kill any deer on the planet. The problem is that far too many hunters can't place it properly with any regularity. The restrictions are a feeble sop at being humane toward the animals because hunters aren't any better with larger calibers than they are with the .223.
-
A properly placed projectile from a .223 will kill any deer on the planet. The problem is that far too many hunters can't place it properly with any regularity. The restrictions are a feeble sop at being humane toward the animals because hunters aren't any better with larger calibers than they are with the .223.
I have heard old old stories from old old timers who brought down deer with a .22 on a regular basis, where you hit is a huge part of whether you bring the critter down and how far you have to hike after it when you do.
-
@Scutter
I don't know who told you that,but he sure as hell wasn't a friend. Friends don't lie to friends about survival tools,and that has to be one the biggest lies ever told.
1911A1's weren't issued to cops as duty weapons and were pulled from the military because the civilian asswipes in procurement who never heard a shot getting fired in anger or fear had appropriation money to spend,kickbacks to pocket,and wanted new toys. They used the excuse of "loaded guns with cocked hammers are dangerous and the cretins we hire to fight for us or protect us are too stupid to operate them safely!"
I guess you aren't aware that the shooters in Delta Force all carry one version or another of the 1911A1?
But hey,what they hell do professional soldiers who are literally authorized to carry any kind of handgun they want know about handguns,right?
As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?
It takes a hell of a lot of training to get really good with the 1911, and that's just not practical for the average shooter. It's a tough gun to shoot well.
-
I have heard old old stories from old old timers who brought down deer with a .22 on a regular basis, where you hit is a huge part of whether you bring the critter down and how far you have to hike after it when you do.
I agree about the .22--it will do the job.
-
I agree about the .22--it will do the job.
Not that I know anything about this mind you, but yes, yes it will.
-
I was in the military when they took our M-14 and gave us a plastic gun.
So was I. I didn't even know such a thing existed as an AR-15 (what it was called at first) until I got to the Special Warfare Center and was issued one. The conventional army support units were still being issued M-14's as late as 1969 in VN. Maybe even later,for all I know.
The plastic gun is better for spray and pray operations. For anything other than that I prefer the M-14 hands down!
Yes,and no. The M-16 was far superior tactically in the jungles because it was shorter,lighter,and half the time you couldn't see what you were shooting at anyhow,even if it was 15 feet away. That's where the "spray and pray" came in handy. MOST troops could do a better job of controlling a M-16 on full auto than a M-14,and given that the savings in ammo weight meant the typical troop could carry more 5.56 rounds than he could 7.62 rounds made the M-16 the winner. The hyper-velocity (compared to the 7.62 round) also mean horrendous wounds to those hit by the round because a lot of the rounds fired would be tumbling when they hit due to being deflected by hitting tree limbs or twigs firest.
If I am facing an enemy in the Great Dismal Swamp,I want a M4. If I am facing an enemy in Kansas,I want a M-14 if I can't find a BAR. I can get a serious case of the warm and fuzzies if I have targets in the open and a good BAR.
-
I have heard old old stories from old old timers who brought down deer with a .22 on a regular basis, where you hit is a huge part of whether you bring the critter down and how far you have to hike after it when you do.
All true!
-
So was I. I didn't even know such a thing existed as an AR-15 (what it was called at first) until I got to the Special Warfare Center and was issued one. The conventional army support units were still being issued M-14's as late as 1969 in VN. Maybe even later,for all I know.
Yes,and no. The M-16 was far superior tactically in the jungles because it was shorter,lighter,and half the time you couldn't see what you were shooting at anyhow,even if it was 15 feet away. That's where the "spray and pray" came in handy. MOST troops could do a better job of controlling a M-16 on full auto than a M-14,and given that the savings in ammo weight meant the typical troop could carry more 5.56 rounds than he could 7.62 rounds made the M-16 the winner. The hyper-velocity (compared to the 7.62 round) also mean horrendous wounds to those hit by the round because a lot of the rounds fired would be tumbling when they hit due to being deflected by hitting tree limbs or twigs firest.
If I am facing an enemy in the Great Dismal Swamp,I want a M4. If I am facing an enemy in Kansas,I want a M-14 if I can't find a BAR. I can get a serious case of the warm and fuzzies if I have targets in the open and a good BAR.
I don't think there is a whole lot of daylight between what I said and what you said but I will agree with you anyway! BTW: My personal side arm in Vietnam was a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge shotgun. It worked wonders at 15 feet in the jungle when you couldn't see what you were shooting at!
-
@sneakypete
That's great, you carry whatever your comfortable with. Personally I have seen way too many people having to clear a F2E or F2F with their 1911 to ever carry one. And that doesn't even begin to cover the other disadvantages, like the limited capacity magazine. IDPA is all about using stanndard self defense weapons, so these wouldn't be some fancy modified race guns.
I'd point out that a lot of other Spec. Ops units don't use the 1911, and prefer something else. Or, they leave it up to each member of the unit. In any case, all that proves is that even the most highly trained people don't share the same opinion regarding weapons. And a lot of the spec ops units have in-house gunsmiths who will specially tune/modify their weapons. That's not the case with most line units.
-
LOL, I can't argue with you cause when you are right you are right.
I've got few in the safe that I need to get a little practice on. I used to go to the range every 3 or 4 months back in the day. Now not so much. However with the gun grabbers out of power it might be safe to by ammo and go to the range again.
Besides - the range is always fun. :laugh:
-
I agree about the .22--it will do the job.
But it sure limits your options to brain, spine, and heart. You can forget about a "boiler room" shot that only penetrates the lungs. You may be lucky, if you're a good tracker, to find where he settles down, to finish him off, with another shot. I read about a polar bear hunt, where upon examination of the bear they shot, they found a .22 bullet in the roof of its mouth that didn't penetrate to the brain. It sucked to be that Eskimo.
-
But it sure limits your options to brain, spine, and heart. You can forget about a "boiler room" shot that only penetrates the lungs. You may be lucky, if you're a good tracker, to find where he settles down, to finish him off, with another shot. I read about a polar bear hunt, where upon examination of the bear they shot, they found a .22 bullet in the roof of its mouth that didn't penetrate to the brain. It sucked to be that Eskimo.
Somedays you get the bear and other days...
-
I'd point out that a lot of other Spec. Ops units don't use the 1911, and prefer something else.
Last I heard,Delta shooters all carry a custom-built variant of the 1911,but built up to take loads that would beat a stock 1911 into scrap.
Other Delta operators carry whatever they think is best for whatever mission it is they are sent on. It's a matter of the right tool for the job,but I am not aware of ANY job where a 9mm is preferable to a 45ACP. ESPECIALLY not when a suppressor is used.
I do think the SEALS carry 9mm's,but let's face it,they are sailors and nobody on the planet is more anal than an Admiral,so they might not even have the option to carry anything else.
-
But it sure limits your options to brain, spine, and heart. You can forget about a "boiler room" shot that only penetrates the lungs. You may be lucky, if you're a good tracker, to find where he settles down, to finish him off, with another shot. I read about a polar bear hunt, where upon examination of the bear they shot, they found a .22 bullet in the roof of its mouth that didn't penetrate to the brain. It sucked to be that Eskimo.
Well, no one here is hunting polar bears. Likely that came from a pistol as a final act of desperate defense or an attempt to dissuade the bear form attacking. Lots of trappers carry .22 pistols.
On a deer, lung shots (especially with a small entrance wound) are a bitch to track in grasslands. A larger caliber through and through can be a challenge, too, though at least there is a little more blood trail. Heart? I have seen whitetail deer go 100+ yards with its heart in three pieces (12 ga. rifled slug), although it laid down a trail a blind man could follow. The small entrance wound (and exit wound unlikely with a .22) again, makes tracking harder.
Best target with a small caliber arm is a high neck shot. Either it hits the spine and drops it right there, takes out the bleeders in the neck (a little low, but easier tracking), or it misses. Not a long distance shot, but within 50 yards, and the deer standing still, walking slowly, or feeding. Getting that opening to shoot requires either a lot of luck, or a thorough knowledge of the area, where the deer move, when they move, and the ability to stay quiet in a decent hide, much like bowhunting, and ideally at about the same range.
-
Myself, I prefer the "boiler room" shot just behind the front leg. And yes, they all run. Most less than 25 yards. My longest around 50 yds. There is less meat damage than the neck shot.
I shot 3 one evening with .243 90gr Nosler Ballistic tips. As each one ran, I noted the direction and where I last saw him. After the 3rd, My limit, I looked for them and they were not much farther than where I last saw them. There was no blood trail. None of those bullets exited. Once I was hunting flooded timber and took the same shot, this time with a 8mm Mauser 180 gr.
I was thinking how can I track in 10 in of water. No problem. With every exhalation, that deer painted all the weed tops with a 3 foot blood circle.
-
Myself, I prefer the "boiler room" shot just behind the front leg. And yes, they all run. Most less than 25 yards. My longest around 50 yds. There is less meat damage than the neck shot.
I shot 3 one evening with .243 90gr Nosler Ballistic tips. As each one ran, I noted the direction and where I last saw him. After the 3rd, My limit, I looked for them and they were not much farther than where I last saw them. There was no blood trail. None of those bullets exited. Once I was hunting flooded timber and took the same shot, this time with a 8mm Mauser 180 gr.
I was thinking how can I track in 10 in of water. No problem. With every exhalation, that deer painted all the weed tops with a 3 foot blood circle.
We were discussing the venerable .22LR as a bambi getter. If I'm shooting my 30.06 I'll put a 180 gr core-lokt through the ribs right behind the point of the shoulder on a standing deer, center of the brisket head-on, and I admit to having taken a 'Texas heart shot', once, seeking to send one up a natural orifice (it worked, but field dressing it was unpleasant).