The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: WAC on July 30, 2016, 05:18:08 pm
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http://townhall.com/columnists/waynegrudem/2016/07/28/why-voting-for-donald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564
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The author of the link is Wayne Grudem:
Who is Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona.
He is a graduate of Harvard (BA), Westminster Seminary-Philadelphia (MDiv, DD),
and the University of Cambridge (PhD).
He has written more than 20 books, includingSystematic Theology, Politics According to the Bible and (with Barry Asmus) The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution.
http://townhall.com/columnists/waynegrudem/2016/07/28/why-voting-for-donald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564
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The fact that we are still talking about the 'lesser of two evils' to the point that for a very high percent (not just single digits like we usually have), both are so vile and corrupt it is difficult to tell the lesser and people choose neither, says a lot about how bad the system has become.
In just four years, we've gone from the lesser of two evils in Romney versus Obama, where even with Romney, many may have had problems with him but most didn't actually think he was vile and evil, to this, shows the vast and rapid decline on our side.
(at that, the Conservative rate of voting actually stayed the same with McCain and Romney going back to trends, so those that sat out were minimal- now we are looking at upward of 30% polling who can't vote for the Republican candidate (and the Democrats are having similar issues))- http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/423363/conservative-purists-didnt-sit-out-last-two-elections-ramesh-ponnuru )
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Phil Johnson's Response to Wayne Grudem's Recent Support of Donald Trump
"The lesser-of-two-evils argument loses all validity when the two evils we are talking about are both major abominations. The lesser-evil principle only works when we're talking about petty issues--gnats, not camels. And we've got a couple of massive, hairy, two-humped Bactrian Camels here."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrian_camel
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M637da884c65d06233d89056f3a1b4dafH0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=266&h=178)
So it took just four minutes to read the article I posted.... locate a rebutal and post it all...right?
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:amen:
Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
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Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
I've grown tired of feeding trolls. See ya!
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Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
Actually, this has been posted in comments several times in the past couple of days so I'm sure everyone has seen it before, as I did at the source. At that, I almost posted it yesterday writing a long, paragraph by paragraph rebuttal but decided not to go there and get into some big morality fight.
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http://townhall.com/columnists/waynegrudem/2016/07/28/why-voting-for-donald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564
Let me guess. The 'lesser evil' argument. It's the only one left. And still a fallacy.
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“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”.
Dietrich Bonhoffer
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“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”.
Dietrich Bonhoffer
:thumbsup:
I'm in the middle of reading Bonhoffer's biography right now.
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Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
:silly:
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The fact that we are still talking about the 'lesser of two evils' to the point that for a very high percent (not just single digits like we usually have), both are so vile and corrupt it is difficult to tell the lesser and people choose neither, says a lot about how bad the system has become.
In just four years, we've gone from the lesser of two evils in Romney versus Obama, where even with Romney, many may have had problems with him but most didn't actually think he was vile and evil, to this, shows the vast and rapid decline on our side.
(at that, the Conservative rate of voting actually stayed the same with McCain and Romney going back to trends, so those that sat out were minimal- now we are looking at upward of 30% polling who can't vote for the Republican candidate (and the Democrats are having similar issues))- http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/423363/conservative-purists-didnt-sit-out-last-two-elections-ramesh-ponnuru )
Yes but I do think it's been going on further back as well......it can be no other way as there are none devoid of 'evil' in one form or another. Some are just far better at hiding it than others.
Furthermore it's no longer about 'good men' rising to the top of the heap as the heap is nothing more than those who have or can generate the funding to run for office, and both. ... so it's a "bought" presidency no matter how any one looks at it.
We have what we get because the population on a whole has permitted so......Trump and Sanders both represented an angry population fed up with the political status quo......so one of the two indeed shake the entire filed and here we are.......now everyone's complaining.....go figure......
As Ii see it none in Washington were listening to the people and this just evidences so. Further the population isn't the American population it once was.......The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the population as migrants/illegals come here to take advantage of this "free ride' going so far as demanding it's their right..... and many here were already generational families remaining on the rolls for a lifetime. It's their standard.
Sp here we are...
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Get back to me when Trump himself even starts to articulate, in a rational and coherent manner, the things that the writer is projecting upon him.
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Get back to me when Trump himself even starts to articulate, in a rational and coherent manner, the things that the writer is projecting upon him.
That's one of the things I almost went after yesterday when reading this and almost posting. Grudem attributes to Trump things he has never said or positions he has never clearly articulated. It is very much a lesson in projection- what he wants to happen, not what there is evidence for happening.
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I read it yesterday at TownHall. Don't let the facts get in your way.
And you comments regarding it?.......
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Get back to me when Trump himself even starts to articulate, in a rational and coherent manner, the things that the writer is projecting upon him.
I think most informed voters prefer to hear from the candidate himself instead of someone trying to interpret what he thinks the candidate says and does....I know I do.
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Get back to me when Trump himself even starts to articulate, in a rational and coherent manner, the things that the writer is projecting upon him.
:amen: But that is NEVER going to happen!
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Agreed, non-interventionism, protect the USA, America first, fight terror. All moral.
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:thumbsup:
I'm in the middle of reading Bonhoffer's biography right now.
Eric Metaxis' Bonhoeffer?? It's a marvelous book - so well written and deeply informative. GREAT read!
And if we had a few more people with the backbone and character of Bonhoeffer in the Republican party, there would be no such thing as a Trump candidacy.....
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Let me guess. The 'lesser evil' argument. It's the only one left. And still a fallacy.
Spurgeon's statement is often quoted hear that "of two evils, choose neither."...
The reality however is.... you WILL have a president, like it or not... sometimes not making a choice, is making a choice.....choosing neither in this case means choosing to help the greater evil......no matter what you choose to do, vote or not, hillary or trump is going to be in the white house.... there is no option C....... what everyone chooses to do or not will 'contribute' in some way to that result
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Spurgeon's statement is often quoted hear that "of two evils, choose neither."...
The reality however is.... you WILL have a president, like it or not... sometimes not making a choice, is making a choice.....choosing neither in this case means choosing to help the greater evil......no matter what you choose to do, vote or not, hillary or trump is going to be in the white house.... there is no option C....... what everyone chooses to do or not will 'contribute' in some way to that result
What many of us want to know, is how you can justify your missionary-like zeal for an evil candidate? Why are you here trying to convince us to go against our beliefs? Why are you insistent on condemning our choice?
If both are evil (they are) and you are voting for one because one of them will win, how can you possibly attack those of us who refuse to vote for either evil?
At least have the decency to recognize that we have the right to refuse to support someone who violates every principle we have.....
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Spurgeon's statement is often quoted hear that "of two evils, choose neither."...
The reality however is.... you WILL have a president, like it or not... sometimes not making a choice, is making a choice.....choosing neither in this case means choosing to help the greater evil......no matter what you choose to do, vote or not, hillary or trump is going to be in the white house.... there is no option C....... what everyone chooses to do or not will 'contribute' in some way to that result
I reject that opinion entirely.
There IS an option C.
No matter what the odds, I will pick the candidate of character and conservative principle, or, if none are valid, I will abstain.
there is no point at all in electing that which you abhor - to prevent the election of that which you abhor..
The absurdity is beyond belief.
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@WAC
#Nevertrump.
Moral? Yeah, lol.
(https://i.imgur.com/oT41FYI.jpg)
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Spurgeon's statement is often quoted hear that "of two evils, choose neither."...
The reality however is.... you WILL have a president, like it or not... sometimes not making a choice, is making a choice.....choosing neither in this case means choosing to help the greater evil......no matter what you choose to do, vote or not, hillary or trump is going to be in the white house.... there is no option C....... what everyone chooses to do or not will 'contribute' in some way to that result
Sure there's an option C, and I availed myself of it long ago. I sleep well at night, and the air out here in "C" land is very fresh.
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These are certainly flaws, but I don’t think they are disqualifying flaws in this election.
Here is where I stopped reading in detail. If the flaws that are listed are disqualifying in some elections (and they are!) then they are disqualifying in ALL elections. You can throw any justification you want at the list of flaws, but that doesn't make them justified.
Your "bait" can hang, as if most, or all actually, of us don't read independently besides what is posted here.
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Charlie Manson would have been a more natural choice for a running mate.
(http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/donald-trump-like-charles-manson-comparison-gif-animation.gif)
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Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
Because this is the exact same argument peddled for months now.
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Took you guys just 4 minutes to post and that no doubt without even reading the article let alone "thinking" about what was written to draw your own conclusions from....which leads me to believe you aren't interested in discussion...rather simply going from thread to thread to prevent any discussion regarding anything favorable to Trump.....
You took the bait......and showed yourselves for what you are!
You set the trap and showed yourself for what you are.............. deceitful.
btw, the answer that this is a stale argument, therefore did not require reflection, has already been stated. But the fact that you admitted that you were 'baiting' people with your post is disturbingly self-indicting. Anything for the Donald, eh? Deceit, entrapment, false attacks, ad hominems....... all now acceptable to one who previously opposed them?
You're a fascinating case study, WAC in the rapid deterioration of values caused by Trump love.
Fascinating and sad.
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There were Christian ministers in Germany who told their parishioners that God had sent Chancellor Hitler to Germany to save them. So I'm not impressed with alleged-ministers who want to contort God into supporting a very vile man.
Dr. Grudem's characterization of Trump as a flawed candidate is incredibly gracious. Jesus said, "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of." Matthew 12:34 (NIV). Jesus also said, "Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18 (NIV). The book of Proverbs also talks about the importance of character and warns against associating with fools. All human beings have flaws but some human beings are "fools" and there are degrees of corruption. The Scriptures clearly teach believers to avoid people of questionable character and fools. In Psalm 1, the writer writes, "Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers." Psalm 1:1(NIV)
Dr. Grudem then goes on to defend Trump's character. He writes of the manner in which Trump has conducted himself in his business dealings, in his relationships with minorities, and as a parent. Jesus stated that even people of questionable character treat their friends very well. However, he said that it was how people treated their enemies that truly demonstrated their character. We have been given a front row seat to view how Trump treats his enemies.
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That last just about caps it. NO Christian adherent would have EVER behaved as Trump has, as regards Cruz. Even, hypothetical, if the charges and the legality of Cruz' citizenship were TRUE.
If there is a legal issue, it's settled in court. NOT in the front pages of a tabloid newspaper your buddy, aptly-named "Pecker," owns. NOT with your pretend-enemies-real-cronies with the Faux Nooze Nutwork.
You settle legal issues where they belong. As to personal issues...the morally-correct way to deal with them is to point out your own better standing in terms of standards. Which of course is hard if you have four trophy wives, one of whom did cheesecake porn; as well as numerous adultrous conquests in the past. As you've admitted to lusting over your own daughter. Jesus said, to take the beam out of your own eye, before trying to remove the speck in your neighbor's.
There is NOTHING to recommend this putz. NOTHING! And the more the trumpbots try, the more ridiculous they look.
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So it took just four minutes to read the article I posted.... locate a rebutal and post it all...right?
quote from article:
He is egotistical, bombastic, and brash. He often lacks nuance in his statements. Sometimes he blurts out mistaken ideas (such as bombing the families of terrorists) that he later must abandon. He insults people. He can be vindictive when people attack him. He has been slow to disown and rebuke the wrongful words and actions of some angry fringe supporters. He has been married three times and claims to have been unfaithful in his marriages. These are certainly flaws, but I don’t think they are disqualifying flaws in this election.
...end quote
Just that section alone would be enough for me to question the sanity of Trump and whether we want him making decisions relating to foreign affairs?
But this entire article is the same diatribe. Same worn out you must choose evil argument. And to quote the scripture about standing by idol didn't sit well with my soul. We all have to pray and listen for what the Lord tells us. I man that finds strength in the Chinese slaughter at Tiananmen Square. Quotes Mussolini. Finds strength in Kim Jung Un and Saddam Hussein. A man who apparently has no respect for law.
It is much more than merely lacking nuance. It is a repeating habit. He speaks his mind and I don't like what is in it. He is double minded. A man that can be tossed to and fro with the wind. (James 1) He lacks Wisdom. His disbelief makes him incapable of Christian moral choice. (calls himself Christian but doesn't need the sacrifice for sin. The blood shed for forgiveness) He doesn't need it.
As for Business owner section - Religious freedom. Words without weight.
If you want to protect religious freedom for Christians you have to respect it for all religions. You cannot ban any religion. You can use the Constitution to enforce freedom. But you cannot ban or make any special tests for religions without expecting similar actions to follow for all religion and faith. Yes we need protection of religion. We need to abide by our laws and enforce laws that exist to protect freedom. And by the name of my Lord Jesus Christ and what I know to be His truth. Freedom is God given. It is enshrined in the Word of God. No religious test just free will.
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I don't outsource my moral decisions to another, not matter how decorated or lettered.
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I don't outsource my moral decisions to another, not matter how decorated or lettered.
I wouldn't be saying amen to any of that article.
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Here again we have another article posted with the intention of explaining away Trump's poor behavior. Yesterday we had one trying to get us to buy that Trump wasn't mocking the disabled reporter. I see both of these articles and all the other similar ones as attempts to make the OPs feel better about their own poor decisions.
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WTF is wrong with you? Are you that ignorant or obnoxious that you are....despite countless warnings...post this Third Reich, Hitler comparison bullsh*t.
@sinkspur Do your job, please.
whine, whine, whine.
Here's a novel though: why don't you grow up. :whistle:
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I hate to have to moderate anything, but let's keep the Hitler references or even inferences off the forum.
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I hate to have to moderate anything, but let's keep the Hitler references or even inferences off the forum.
They're not necessary.
Trump is so deeply flawed and ugly on his own that any reference to previous despots is entirely unnecessary.
We can't do worse than Trump.
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I hate to have to moderate anything, but let's keep the Hitler references or even inferences off the forum.
You do understand what Godwin's Law is, do you not?
It's a covert attempt at enforcing PC Speech Codes. To SHUT DOWN debate.
There can be thousands of reasons why discussion or comparison of the Nazi movement might be not only appropriate but important. Now there can be ludicrous comparisons to Hitler, but the answer to that is to explain why they are ludicrous. Not to remove the post or lock down the thread.
If someone is calling someone else a Nazi, that's cause to edit - for the personal attacks, not for saying the Magic Words.
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whine, whine, whine.
Here's a novel though: why don't you grow up. :whistle:
Oceander! Don't you have some heavy traffic to play in or something?
Get lost.
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Oceander! Don't you have some heavy traffic to play in or something?
Get lost.
whine, whine, whine. Lay off the sauce. :whistle:
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I hate to have to moderate anything, but let's keep the Hitler references or even inferences off the forum.
Thank you, Sink. :patriot:
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Yes, it is part of the PC code of Trump???(oops, can't say that either). But it is not such a big deal. We can just compare him to Al Capone or some other mobster. Trump is a thug and a hypocrite. He thinks everyone should bow and kiss his ring and follow his rules when he does not follow them himself. I can live without the Hitler reference. He may not end up being as bad as Hitler. That doesn't mean he is not dangerous and unfit for the Presidency.
Al Capone or some other mobster is probably a better reference in any event.
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I hate to have to moderate anything, but let's keep the Hitler references or even inferences off the forum.
Trumps no dolfie ...he is more charlie like!
(http://i.imgur.com/bQKerMu.gif)
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You do understand what Godwin's Law is, do you not?
It's a covert attempt at enforcing PC Speech Codes. To SHUT DOWN debate.
There can be thousands of reasons why discussion or comparison of the Nazi movement might be not only appropriate but important. Now there can be ludicrous comparisons to Hitler, but the answer to that is to explain why they are ludicrous. Not to remove the post or lock down the thread.
If someone is calling someone else a Nazi, that's cause to edit - for the personal attacks, not for saying the Magic Words.
I understand and I thought long and hard about removing that image. But it was simply gratuitous, with no explanation or defense.
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Meanwhile:
Kevin M. Kruse
@KevinMKruse
Trump's last 24 hours:
-Attacked dead soldier's family
-Trashed 4-star general
-Lied about NFL & Koch Bros.
-Accused fire marshal of bias
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Yes, it is part of the PC code of Trump???(oops, can't say that either). But it is not such a big deal. We can just compare him to Al Capone or some other mobster. Trump is a thug and a hypocrite. He thinks everyone should bow and kiss his ring and follow his rules when he does not follow them himself. I can live without the Hitler reference. He may not end up being as bad as Hitler. That doesn't mean he is not dangerous and unfit for the Presidency.
Compare him to any despot who rose through a Cult of Personality.
Over at another board, one which went ape for the Orange Julius, I compared his rise to that of Francois Duvalier or Fidel Castro.
Castro, remember, was an American-educated lawyer. Duvalier was a physician. Both of them had the reputation, at least partly earned, of being folk heroes...Duvalier had done service in rural Haiti with a cholera outbreak, some years before being elected (only once, before elections were abolished) to Haiti's Presidency.
There is nothing new under the sun. There are always opportunists; and when they sense their chance, they move. Human psychology being what it is, the creation of a Personality Cult is a necessary step to becoming a de facto king or emperor.
I don't think Trump has time enough before the Grim Reaper comes a-calling; but I worry who will pick up where he leaves it...
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Here is the other half of the speech Khan said he wanted to give:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoovliiUkAA5mGv.jpg)
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Yes, it is part of the PC code of Trump???(oops, can't say that either). But it is not such a big deal. We can just compare him to Al Capone or some other mobster. Trump is a thug and a hypocrite. He thinks everyone should bow and kiss his ring and follow his rules when he does not follow them himself. I can live without the Hitler reference. He may not end up being as bad as Hitler. That doesn't mean he is not dangerous and unfit for the Presidency.
Al Capone. I like that one better........