The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: mrclose on November 11, 2016, 08:38:58 am
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Donald Trump has selected one of the best-known climate skeptics to lead his U.S. EPA transition team, according to two sources close to the campaign.
Myron Ebell, director of the Center for Energy and Environment at the conservative Competitive Enterprise Institute, is spearheading Trump’s transition plans for EPA, the sources said.
Ebell is a well-known and polarizing figure in the energy and environment realm. His participation in the EPA transition signals that the Trump team is looking to drastically reshape the climate policies the agency has pursued under the Obama administration. Ebell’s role is likely to infuriate environmentalists and Democrats but buoy critics of Obama’s climate rules.
:tongue2:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/?wt.mc=SA_Twitter-Share#
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:tongue2:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/?wt.mc=SA_Twitter-Share#
We need a Trump score board. The good and the bad.
This good, real good.
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:tongue2:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/?wt.mc=SA_Twitter-Share#
Holy crap!
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Sorry Bill Nye.
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"skeptic" - aka actual scientist
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As Trump picks his people my anxiety subsides.
My biggest fear is that he fills his cabinet with Alex Jones loonies or his family members (as his son-in-law was floated as a name for something or other last night).
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:tongue2:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/?wt.mc=SA_Twitter-Share#
+1
Good start with the first drain plug being yanked out of the swamp. Dismantling the EPA Gestapho will be a wonderful move.
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Good start
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We need a Trump score board. The good and the bad.
This good, real good.
How about, The Good. The Bad, and The ugly.
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Anthropogenic climate change ,or global warming ,or climate crisis, whatever they want to call it at any given moment is definitely an elite cause. Not so much with everybody else because they have to live with the policies that are implemented
Does this mean now no more threats of arrest for anybody who is skeptical of Anthropogenic climate change
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We need a Trump score board. The good and the bad.
This good, real good.
This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
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This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
This looks like a good move on his part and I am happy about it.
That said, based on his actual history, Nevertrump, nor YOU had any reason to believe he would or will continue to make good choices. Lets all hope he does.
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Anthropogenic climate change ,or global warming ,or climate crisis, whatever they want to call it at any given moment is definitely an elite cause.
It's a perfect issue for those interested in gaining real power. This is an issue that is portrayed as a truly existential threat -- actually the end of the world as we know it -- and as such can be used as leverage for taking extreme measures.
It's also where the confluence of science, politics, money, and public acclaim converge -- Bill Nye being the poster boy. Honest discussion has no place in such an environment.
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This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
I'm unchanged in my assessment of Trump's fitness for office (or lack thereof); his temperament is demonstrably unsuited to the sorts of behavior a president must have.
That said, if he picks good people and actually listens to them; and if his team can keep his public utterances under some semblance of control, it will go a long way toward making me feel more optimistic about the next four years.
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We need a Trump score board. The good and the bad.
This good, real good.
Agree. I was shocked and very pleased. Trump went head on at the climate crazies and that is one big checkmark for Trump.
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....If his team can keep his public utterances under some semblance of control, it will go a long way toward making me feel more optimistic about the next four years.
I have been thinking about that, and it seems to me his public utterances have been calculated to give his enemies something to chew on while he goes about the business of "winning" whatever it is that is in his sights. It is a common management tactic.
If this is the case, then if you pay attention to what he says rather than what he does, you are following the decoy.
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I have been thinking about that, and it seems to me his public utterances have been calculated to give his enemies something to chew on while he goes about the business of "winning" whatever it is that is in his sights. It is a common management tactic.
If this is the case, then if you pay attention to what he says rather than what he does, you are following the decoy.
This isn't business, though -- it's politics: "the art of the possible." In politics a great deal hinges on what one says; and any difference between what is said and what is actually done, is fodder for the opposition.
Besides all that, to the extent that Trump's behavior drives the media narrative, his ability to get things done will suffer accordingly.
My view of him is unchanged: that he's a thin-skinned and undisciplined narcissist. His behavior during the election established that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Thus my lack of confidence in him being able to reign in his behavior for the good of the country, and even the world.
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So far so good. Gotta give credit where credit is due.
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I have been thinking about that, and it seems to me his public utterances have been calculated to give his enemies something to chew on while he goes about the business of "winning" whatever it is that is in his sights. It is a common management tactic.
If this is the case, then if you pay attention to what he says rather than what he does, you are following the decoy.
Thats why during the campaign, we Nevertrumpers preached on his record. And why his fanatics preached on 'listen to what he says'.
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This looks like a good move on his part and I am happy about it.
That said, based on his actual history, Nevertrump, nor YOU had any reason to believe he would or will continue to make good choices. Lets all hope he does.
Actually we did. And we told you why, but the Never Trumpers were too busy screaming bile laced tirades at everyone to listen.
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Actually we did. And we told you why, but the Never Trumpers were too busy screaming bile laced tirades at everyone to listen.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fjr6v88OPk7U4/giphy.gif)
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Actually we did. And we told you why, but the Never Trumpers were too busy screaming bile laced tirades at everyone to listen.
No you didn't. You projected what you hoped for. His record and his support is on the left. History is what it is. If he moves right, America benefits.
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Thats why during the campaign, we Nevertrumpers preached on his record. And why his fanatics preached on 'listen to what he says'.
You lost because you were too busy screaming bile laced tirades rather then listening to anything that challenged your dogmas. You did "preach on his record". The Never Trumpers merely screamed in horror that that their precious GOP Country Club was being invaded by that crude lewd dirty unwashed peasant Trump.
It was a live re-enactment of the move Caddy Shack.
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No you didn't. You projected what you hoped for. His record and his support is on the left. History is what it is. If he moves right, America benefits.
No, I actually looked at the guy and his record and evolved instead of clinging to my knee jerk distaste for his bombastic politcal style. I looked past the surface and saw the substance. You all never looked beyond the surface.
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Let's all stop reliving the past..it's over
Here is something we can all agree on and I pray this is just the beginning of great things to come.
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You lost because you were too busy screaming bile laced tirades rather then listening to anything that challenged your dogmas. You did "preach on his record". The Never Trumpers merely screamed in horror that that their precious GOP Country Club was being invaded by that crude lewd dirty unwashed peasant Trump.
It was a live re-enactment of the move Caddy Shack.
Thats odd as I have been railing on the GOP for 8 years. I want the party flushed down the toilet as they have proven their liberalism. But whatever belief gets you through the day, you should do that.
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@GAJohnnie
@Norm Lenhart
For cryin' out loud, can't you guys give it a rest? Or are the rest of us going to have to wade through pages of internecine squabbling ad infinitum?
Don't bitch at me. Bitch at the guy with his hair on fire.
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@GAJohnnie
@Norm Lenhart
For cryin' out loud, can't you guys give it a rest? Or are the rest of us going to have to wade through pages of internecine squabbling ad infinitum?
We have members still arguing about the war in Iraq. It's going to take a while for this to simmer down.
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Dismantle the EPA and the Dept of Education and return these functions to the States-the Tenth Amendment is rising from ashes.
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Don't bitch at me. Bitch at the guy with his hair on fire.
How was I supposed to know hairspray was flammable? :tongue2:
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How was I supposed to know hairspray was flammable? :tongue2:
Check with a match, DUH! ;)
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This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
+1,000,000 on your Avatar. Just sayin'.
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How was I supposed to know hairspray was flammable? :tongue2:
This from a guy who lights his farts around the campfire!
:whistle:
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This from a guy who lights his farts around the campfire!
:whistle:
Wait... does he light them all the way around the campfire?
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This from a guy who lights his farts around the campfire!
:whistle:
Think of it as doing ones part to eliminate greenhouse gasses.
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Actually we did. And we told you why, but the Never Trumpers were too busy screaming bile laced tirades at everyone to listen.
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Think of it as doing ones part to eliminate greenhouse gasses.
Silly, he's just transforming it from one greenhouse gas to two others: Methane -> H20 and CO2.
That's TWICE as bad!
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You lost because you were too busy screaming bile laced tirades rather then listening to anything that challenged your dogmas. You did "preach on his record". The Never Trumpers merely screamed in horror that that their precious GOP Country Club was being invaded by that crude lewd dirty unwashed peasant Trump.
It was a live re-enactment of the move Caddy Shack.
Sir, I knew Al Czervik. Al Cervik was a friend of mine. And Donald Trump is No Al Czervik. Trump is not Bushwood material!
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Silly, he's just transforming it from one greenhouse gas to two others: Methane -> H20 and CO2.
That's TWICE as bad!
Yea but isn't methane like 8 times as bad to begin with? I get so confused. I think I committed genocide on AZ this morning and I'm sorta feeling guilty at the moment.
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This from a guy who lights his farts around the campfire!
Myron Ebell is the guy in the left:
(http://www.readjunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/articles_fartsinmovies.jpg)
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Sir, I knew Al Czervik. Al Cervik was a friend of mine. And Donald Trump is No Al Czervik. Trump is not Bushwood material!
HEY, EVERYBODY! WE'RE ALL GONNA GET LAID!
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Think of it as doing ones part to eliminate greenhouse gasses.
Don't try it on cows though... Had to ride 5 miles to find the old rocket cow...
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Come on everybody knock it off..please!
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.
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Come on everybody knock it off..please!
Ah come on we hadn't even gotten to the bean jokes yet...
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Needs to go beyond who's the head of an agency, though that's a good start. The EPA makes regs without any science whatsoever. What 'science' they do try to prop us as the excuse is one sided and only feeds the predetermined conclusion.
Worse is the incestuous collusion with the enviro groups. They sue the EPA to get a judge to sign off on new regs, then sit down with the EPA to write those regs. Unethical and in my book illegal conflict of interest, and that's just one of many issue of how these departments put out regs that we have to pay for and deal with.
Laws need to be passed completely reforming the rule making system by clamping down on agencies, and require strict procedures before their regs can past muster.
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@Idaho_Cowboy
"Global Warming?"
(http://s9.postimg.org/plnogq6sv/blazing_saddles_dock_that.jpg)
"It can't be more than 114!"
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Let's all stop reliving the past..it's over
Here is something we can all agree on and I pray this is just the beginning of great things to come.
I still maintain my skepticism regarding Donald Trump . But when you're right, you're right, and in this case, he's right
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Come on everybody knock it off..please!
Mystery!! I feel your pain.
Trump just did something we all like and we're still hell bent on sticking it to each other.
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Needs to go beyond who's the head of an agency, though that's a good start. The EPA makes regs without any science whatsoever. What 'science' they do try to prop us as the excuse is one sided and only feeds the predetermined conclusion.
Worse is the incestuous collusion with the enviro groups. They sue the EPA to get a judge to sign off on new regs, then sit down with the EPA to write those regs. Unethical and in my book illegal conflict of interest, and that's just one of many issue of how these departments put out regs that we have to pay for and deal with.
Laws need to be passed completely reforming the rule making system by clamping down on agencies, and require strict procedures before their regs can past muster.
Yes.
What you're talking about here is the unaccountable (because not "official") fourth branch of government, the permanent bureaucracy, which is in effect a second legislative branch.
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Needs to go beyond who's the head of an agency, though that's a good start. The EPA makes regs without any science whatsoever. What 'science' they do try to prop us as the excuse is one sided and only feeds the predetermined conclusion.
Worse is the incestuous collusion with the enviro groups. They sue the EPA to get a judge to sign off on new regs, then sit down with the EPA to write those regs. Unethical and in my book illegal conflict of interest, and that's just one of many issue of how these departments put out regs that we have to pay for and deal with.
Laws need to be passed completely reforming the rule making system by clamping down on agencies, and require strict procedures before their regs can past muster.
If Trump will allow the division heads to take cases where judges overrule them to the supreme court, the problem ends because the left will start double checking their privlege before the chineese barge of frivilous suits due to costs. They won't be getting govt payback.. But to date, Bush and Obama both have refused to do so.
If he appoints a good interior/EPA team then much of this mess can get sorted.
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Ah come on we hadn't even gotten to the bean jokes yet...
Women never appreciate the nuances of a good windwood section joke!
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Yes.
What you're talking about here is the unaccountable (because not "official") fourth branch of government, the permanent bureaucracy, which is in effect a second legislative branch.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2409/2146255295_ebfaeec92b_z.jpg?zz=1)
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+1,000,000 on your Avatar. Just sayin'.
I thank you, and Uncle Milty thanks you.
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If he appoints a good interior/EPA team then much of this mess can get sorted.
Perhaps. As it stands, though, there is a strong alliance between EPA regulators and activist groups that must be dealt with; apparently in many cases the activist groups are called upon to dictate the fundamentals of environmental regulation. See, e.g., https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/ (https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/)
Nothing will change in DC unless and until the regulatory machinery can be made subject to actual accountability.
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Women never appreciate the nuances of a good windwood section joke!
If God hadn't meant for farts to be funny, he'd never have invented elevators.
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Perhaps. As it stands, though, there is a strong alliance between EPA regulators and activist groups that must be dealt with; apparently in many cases the activist groups are called upon to dictate the fundamentals of environmental regulation. See, e.g., https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/ (https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/)
Nothing will change in DC unless and until the regulatory machinery can be made subject to actual accountability.
Thats what I mean by team. Not just the heads. You are absolutely right. The departments basically have to be gutted or better yet, eliminated. The link to philanthropics and activists groups must be severed totally.
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Perhaps. As it stands, though, there is a strong alliance between EPA regulators and activist groups that must be dealt with; apparently in many cases the activist groups are called upon to dictate the fundamentals of environmental regulation. See, e.g., https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/ (https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/)
Nothing will change in DC unless and until the regulatory machinery can be made subject to actual accountability.
Just as a side note, I spent several years as the Senior Ed of the then largest off-road website. We were heavily involved with fighting the Sierra Club and their ilk along with Blue Ribbon Coalition and several others. I understand the EPA/Interior problem very well. And it is massively worse today than in 2000.
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I understand the tyranny and the power of the global warming nuts. I just don't understand how anyone was ever convinced of this fantasy.
I guess people were desperate for someone/something to blame.
Every time my son hits me with it, I remind him that he is personally responsible because he ran a large yacht on Lake Texoma for several years.
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I understand the tyranny and the power of the global warming nuts. I just don't understand how anyone was ever convinced of this fantasy.
Tell a lie often enough, people will believe it.
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I understand the EPA/Interior problem very well. And it is massively worse today than in 2000.
It's because of something that has been called "The Colorado Machine" model of political organizing (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/colorado-udall-hickenlooper-senate-democracy-alliance (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/colorado-udall-hickenlooper-senate-democracy-alliance)), which is itself a natural follow-on to what Democrats have been doing since the 60s.
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I understand the tyranny and the power of the global warming nuts. I just don't understand how anyone was ever convinced of this fantasy.
I guess people were desperate for someone/something to blame.
Every time my son hits me with it, I remind him that he is personally responsible because he ran a large yacht on Lake Texoma for several years.
The short version of the very long story is that Liberals took control of education. They then had the means to indoctrinate generations. Once they took power in Washington, they were able to indoctrinate as they pleased and did, without anyone to stop them.
The media is an arm of the left. It went along willingly.
together they simply socially engineered the issue. Kids were taught eco worship and they grew up believing it. Most did not have principled parents to teach them the truth and as kids do, they ostracize anyone not like them. So there was peer pressure added into the mix.
In the end you had 2 full generations steeped in eco propaganda from home, school and social/friends. They believe it because they simply do not know anything else. Their while life has been filled with it.
Itwould be like me telling you that homosexuality was the natural order when you know it is not. Your whole life you have known it. So it would be hard to make you believe me. Thats what they face. They were taught one thing they 'know with all their being'. and to not believe it is just crazy for them.
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The short version of the very long story is that Liberals took control of education. They then had the means to indoctrinate generations. Once they took power in Washington, they were able to indoctrinate as they pleased and did, without anyone to stop them.
The media is an arm of the left. It went along willingly.
together they simply socially engineered the issue. Kids were taught eco worship and they grew up believing it. Most did not have principled parents to teach them the truth and as kids do, they ostracize anyone not like them. So there was peer pressure added into the mix.
In the end you had 2 full generations steeped in eco propaganda from home, school and social/friends. They believe it because they simply do not know anything else. Their while life has been filled with it.
Itwould be like me telling you that homosexuality was the natural order when you know it is not. Your whole life you have known it. So it would be hard to make you believe me. Thats what they face. They were taught one thing they 'know with all their being'. and to not believe it is just crazy for them.
“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.” - Lenin
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“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.” - Lenin
Exactly. And they have employed it time and again.
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This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
Oh does it, now?
I recall:
"The EPA should ensure that biofuel … blend levels match the statutory level set by Congress under the [renewable fuel standard],” Trump said.
http://www.governorsbiofuelscoalition.org/?p=15941 (http://www.governorsbiofuelscoalition.org/?p=15941)
From the article, dated January 19, 2016:
Quote
Donald Trump said Tuesday that federal regulators should increase the amount of ethanol blended into the nation’s gasoline supply.
I recall, during the Iowa campaign, Trump said he would look to increase the Renewable fuels mandate (that's ethanol) and "use the EPA to the fullest extent of the law to enforce it."
That was deal-breaker number one for me.
I am thrilled to see he has no apparent intent of following that 'Climate Change' dictated policy, but that wasn't what he said. Hiring a scientist for the transition team is nice, but he isn't even sworn in yet. So put your pecker away and let's see what he does. His willingness to double down on existing environmental policy during the campaign was a key factor in my stance against him (too).
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Exactly. And they have employed it time and again.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, reality has a way of catching up with such things. Happened to the Russians under communism; gonna happen to us, too.
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Fortunately, or unfortunately, reality has a way of catching up with such things. Happened to the Russians under communism; gonna happen to us, too.
History does have a maddening tendency to repeat. Eventually they will have it blow up in their faces if for no other reason than entropy but it won't take that long. Lies always fall apart. And there is way too much truth to be denied forever on Green issues.
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Mystery!! I feel your pain.
Trump just did something we all like and we're still hell bent on sticking it to each other.
There was an instigator to the problem. He needs to be ignored.
As for this choice, one good decision...... possibly.
I will be a skeptic for a very long time, and never will agree with having an amoral man in the WH, but I'm not going to gripe about decisions I agree with.
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As for this choice, one good decision...... possibly.
Assuming he's even confirmed, he's almost certain to get the James Watt treatement (showing my age here...). The effectiveness of putting a heretic at the head of a religious organization is always open to question.
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This alone demonstrates the absurdity of NEVERTRUMP. Would Hillary have done such a thing? Trump may not be ideological, but he is a businessman with a keen sense of who his customers are and what they want. If that is the case, it is good enough for me.
No decision is "absurd" if integrity and character are more important to you than politics, and supporting someone devoid of both is not an option. Purely politically, perhaps NT was "absurd," but in the scheme of eternity, the most rational decision, and one I will never, ever regret.
That said, I'm still glad that Hillary isn't going to be President.
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Assuming he's even confirmed, he's almost certain to get the James Watt treatement (showing my age here...). The effectiveness of putting a heretic at the head of a religious organization is always open to question.
The religious left may well behead the choice of a climate change skeptic who opposes their deeply held theology.
It will be interesting to see what happens here.
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History does have a maddening tendency to repeat. Eventually they will have it blow up in their faces if for no other reason than entropy but it won't take that long. Lies always fall apart. And there is way too much truth to be denied forever on Green issues.
Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end of the nouveau Lysenkoism that has gripped policy in America by the short hairs, and we can get rid of those jerks down by Cannonball (ND).
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Lots of talkie talk. Let's see who is actually nominated and just who gets confirmed by the senate.
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Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end of the nouveau Lysenkoism that has gripped policy in America by the short hairs, and we can get rid of those jerks down by Cannonball (ND).
Simple solution. Said it for years. Oil is a national security issue. Thats not remotely arguable. Oil infrastructure is obviously a NatSec issue as well. Same for any energy.
Put the guard on site, arm them and treat protestors as jihadi terrorists the second they violate the law or in any way interfere with the country's national security.
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nouveau Lysenkoism
Exactly.
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Simple solution. Said it for years. Oil is a national security issue. Thats not remotely arguable. Oil infrastructure is obviously a NatSec issue as well. Same for any energy.
Put the guard on site, arm them and treat protestors as jihadi terrorists the second they violate the law or in any way interfere with the country's national security.
The outsiders pushing this, (most of the people there, but likely the ones really pushing people) want another 'Wounded Knee' so they can play the race card, too--at least that is my guess. They aren't there because they 'care' about the Tribe, they are there to make money, either because they 'care' and are there, or in an attempt to extract some sort of payment ("settlement") to go away. Some true believers may think oil is evil, do the whole dirt worship thing, but I think this is just an old fashioned holdup that got out of hand.
Calling out the National Guard has its problems, with locals facing locals. Not pretty, even if the locals in the protest camp are relatively few compared to the rest.
For the real ecowhacko, this will go on their resume like a campaign ribbon, and arrests are additional bars on the rack, but to the rest of us this is a pain in the arse, especially for local residents, and it is costing a fortune, holding up jobs, and costing everyone in the state tax money. Lovely. It is a testament to the law abiding nature of people in the State that no one has gathered up a group and taken things into their own hands, and the fundamental stoicism that waits for winter to settle in. Besides, no one here would want to put local LEOs in the unenviable position of having to defend the protesters against their own people.
It'll wait. Winter's coming.
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It'll wait. Winter's coming.
:silly:
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The outsiders pushing this, (most of the people there, but likely the ones really pushing people) want another 'Wounded Knee' so they can play the race card, too--at least that is my guess. They aren't there because they 'care' about the Tribe, they are there to make money, either because they 'care' and are there, or in an attempt to extract some sort of payment ("settlement") to go away. Some true believers may think oil is evil, do the whole dirt worship thing, but I think this is just an old fashioned holdup that got out of hand.
Calling out the National Guard has its problems, with locals facing locals. Not pretty, even if the locals in the protest camp are relatively few compared to the rest.
For the real ecowhacko, this will go on their resume like a campaign ribbon, and arrests are additional bars on the rack, but to the rest of us this is a pain in the arse, especially for local residents, and it is costing a fortune, holding up jobs, and costing everyone in the state tax money. Lovely. It is a testament to the law abiding nature of people in the State that no one has gathered up a group and taken things into their own hands, and the fundamental stoicism that waits for winter to settle in. Besides, no one here would want to put local LEOs in the unenviable position of having to defend the protesters against their own people.
It'll wait. Winter's coming.
Whatever we do to the snowflakes, they are going to scream racism/sexism/homoism/purple penguinism. We have to accept that and let them scream. If they cause an issue, so be it. The reality as that as bad as it will be, we cannot let the left hold America hostage any longer. It has to begin somewhere because they will never stop/be talked out of it/whatever.
Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.
Give them their chance with ample time, then the party ends.
Theywill then think twice before doing it again. Fallout? Of course. Then they will go back to their basements after a couple failed attempts elsewhere when the process repeats.
Go in with RICO and nail every funder and organizer.
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Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.
Disagree. As a wise woman once said:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b2/52/fd/b252fde20dcd76e85a3803e25f28b85f.jpg)
Obama will do nothing. Trump couldn't do anything until late January (when the cold most likely would have chased them away in any case).
Were Trump to send in the military, it would simply confirm to those already in the throes of the vapors, that Trump is exactly what they say he is. It would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.
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Disagree. As a wise woman once said:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b2/52/fd/b252fde20dcd76e85a3803e25f28b85f.jpg)
Obama will do nothing. Trump couldn't do anything until late January (when the cold most likely would have chased them away in any case).
Were Trump to send in the military, it would simply confirm to those already in the throes of the vapors, that Trump is exactly what they say he is. It would be a monumentally stupid thing to do.
I really don't see many options. I'm sure you don't honestly believe they will leave (or not show up come spring again so the problem is still there. It has to be solved. So all kidding aside, what options are there? And consider I don't just mean up there. I mean with every situation like this and there will be a lot more coming as now there is no Obama to simply go write an EO or will there be an EPA/Interior person on their payroll.
So what realistically can be done without getting serious with these liberals when they break the law?
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I really don't see many options. I'm sure you don't honestly believe they will leave (or not show up come spring again so the problem is still there. It has to be solved. So all kidding aside, what options are there? And consider I don't just mean up there. I mean with every situation like this and there will be a lot more coming as now there is no Obama to simply go write an EO or will there be an EPA/Interior person on their payroll.
So what realistically can be done without getting serious with these liberals when they break the law?
The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal. But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them.
The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need. Arrest them for actual crimes, but otherwise let them yell.
The winter will come, and it will be long and cold. Their ardor will have died down by May....
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The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal. But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them.
The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need.
The winter will come, and it will be long and cold. Their ardor will have died down by May....
So how long do we continue to delay projects in 6 month blocks? That is functionally identical to Baltamore's 'give them space to destroy".
And then what about the next one? How long there? The original year and when they come back after a rainstorm, a month more?
I'm not trying to be a smartass here or Stalin. But these things need to be addressed definitively by people in power. You cannot reward bad behavior like this as it only breeds more. And without the protection of Obama, they are going to ramp way up until it is stopped cold. We cannot kick the can because the left/media cries about it. We have to have a functioning system of government and that included oil/mining/logging/shipping/transportation.
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The only reason it gets attention now, is because the social media echo chamber has made it a big deal. But ultimately this stuff ends up being counter-productive for them.
The best thing to do is ignore them as much as possible; taking the offensive -- especially using soldiers or SWAT -- gives them exactly what they want and need. Arrest them for actual crimes, but otherwise let them yell.
The winter will come, and it will be long and cold. Their ardor will have died down by May....
As a for instance, have a read through the following
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/03/news/mn-23861
These people sat through a decade of 120+ degree summers until they stopped the site.
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As Trump picks his people my anxiety subsides.
My biggest fear is that he fills his cabinet with Alex Jones loonies or his family members (as his son-in-law was floated as a name for something or other last night).
It's early, but it sure looks like he's got the right people in mind.
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So how long do we continue to delay projects in 6 month blocks? That is functionally identical to Baltamore's 'give them space to destroy".
And then what about the next one? How long there? The original year and when they come back after a rainstorm, a month more?
I'm not trying to be a smartass here or Stalin. But these things need to be addressed definitively by people in power. You cannot reward bad behavior like this as it only breeds more. And without the protection of Obama, they are going to ramp way up until it is stopped cold. We cannot kick the can because the left/media cries about it. We have to have a functioning system of government and that included oil/mining/logging/shipping/transportation.
More or less true. But as the green lady said above, these things must be done delicately. Ham-fisted responses -- which they're hoping for! -- will make things even worse.
In cases like this, triangulation is the proper approach.
First, acknowledge that, hidden behind the protests, there are some legitimate concerns -- because there probably are. Next, find somebody on the other side who's reasonable -- and there will be such -- and make him the de facto spokesman for the movement. Air concerns and arguments on both sides, and actually attempt to find middle ground -- it's almost certainly there.
This approach has worked well in other places. For example, the logging industry in Oregon was hamstrung like this until a series of enormous fires brought people to their senses. The enviros' total opposition to logging had created a tremendous fuel load, which of course burned. But they had legitimate grievances against the logging practices of the time (vast clear-cutting operations).
After the fires, sensible adults on all sides came together to work out a better way of doing things. As it stands now, the Forest Service, logging concerns, and the enviros seem to have actually done good work in coming up with a workable compromise solution.
I see no reason why it shouldn't be tried in ND as well.
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As a for instance, have a read through the following
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/apr/03/news/mn-23861
These people sat through a decade of 120+ degree summers until they stopped the site.
You can sit through 120+ degrees. You can't sit through 40- below.
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You can sit through 120+ degrees. You can't sit through 40- below.
I have lived in upstate NY in 50-60 below winters. I used to stay up all night back in high school keeping my uncles log truck running with space heaters on the tanks so the fuel didn't gel and he could get to the mill. I live 20 miles from the site of the article I linked. My point was they kept at it. They did not get bored and go home.
And I assure you that you will not survive long sitting in the sun here during July/August. Every year a couple tourists end up dead after a few hours doing something they shouldn't outside.
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I have lived in upstate NY in 50-60 below winters. I used to stay up all night back in high school keeping my uncles log truck running with space heaters on the tanks so the fuel didn't gel and he could get to the mill. I live 20 miles from the site of the article I linked. My point was they kept at it. They did not get bored and go home.
And I assure you that you will not survive long sitting in the sun here during July/August. Every year a couple tourists end up dead after a few hours doing something they shouldn't outside.
Well, you're a hardy fellow, then -- but you had the advantage of a nice, warm log truck to sit in. You're not gonna get a bunch of folks to camp out for the duration of a North Dakota winter.
Even so, the solution is as I said: triangulate.
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Perhaps. As it stands, though, there is a strong alliance between EPA regulators and activist groups that must be dealt with; apparently in many cases the activist groups are called upon to dictate the fundamentals of environmental regulation. See, e.g., https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/ (https://epafacts.com/new-report-highlights-revolving-door-between-epa-and-green-activist-groups/)
Nothing will change in DC unless and until the regulatory machinery can be made subject to actual accountability.
One way would be to pass a law that all proposed agency regulations, both new regs and changes to existing regs, will henceforth be considered bills put before Congress, and will not go into effect until approved by both houses. That would slow things down, and would force legislators to be politically responsible for the bureaucratic regs.
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One way would be to pass a law that all proposed agency regulations, both new regs and changes to existing regs, will henceforth be considered bills put before Congress, and will not go into effect until approved by both houses. That would slow things down, and would force legislators to be politically responsible for the bureaucratic regs.
Not a bad idea. As it stands now, a lot of legislation authorizes the regulatory agencies to make policies to implement the law ... which is fine, so far as it goes, but the resultant regulations never come back for approval.
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Ebell is a decent choice. He is head of the Competitive Enterprise Institute and is a free market solutions proponent.
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Ebell is a decent choice. He is head of the Competitive Enterprise Institute and is a free market solutions proponent.
Probably so -- assuming he can survive the confirmation process. I think EPA is one of those appointments that the Democrats will go all-out to get their way.
To get through it, Ebell will have to make a very good case that he's not a "denier," but instead is a scientist; and that as a scientist he will insist on hard science to justify whatever draconian regulations are being proposed.
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Well, you're a hardy fellow, then -- but you had the advantage of a nice, warm log truck to sit in. You're not gonna get a bunch of folks to camp out for the duration of a North Dakota winter.
Even so, the solution is as I said: triangulate.
Not that hardy. The heater does not work when it's that cold ;)
The thing is, the indians and their supporters will do there what they did here. Bring in motorhomes. Earth first does/did the same thing in the PNW. Sure some leave but the core group gets the party going.
I'm not against triangulation per se. But the thing is that its still more of the same thing that has been done for years. It does not work and it actually benefits them because it always delays, not fixes while they stall with 'talks'. There's nothing new with that strategy and it is they that triangulate us. There are countless examples especially in the PNW and the California deserts. It goes back at least 3 decades.
So far on this site I have seen people say elect Trump because Trump is going to build a wall and said so before the election and say it's stupid/he cant because reasons since election night.
I have seen people say elect trump because he's going to bring Hillary to justice and said so before the election and say 'thats stupid, it will endanger his agenda' once he got elected.
Now there's this and I am sure someone would also apply it to BLM and the other liberal 'protestors'. Before the election we had to elect trump because he was a hard ass that would never let these terrorists get away with shutting down infrastructure, but now he can't because the media would say bad things.
My question is why did people elect him if they don't want him to do what he said he was going to? surely people understand the screaming and violence that will happen no matter what he does, peacefully with words or with law enforcement?
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Hiring a scientist for the transition team is nice, but he isn't even sworn in yet.
That's right. This is just the transition team, without any policy. At best it's a 'thumb up' and a 'big shrug'...
Rubber ain't anywhere near hitting the road.
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My question is why did people elect him if they don't want him to do what he said he was going to? surely people understand the screaming and violence that will happen no matter what he does, peacefully with words or with law enforcement?
Look: elections are all about promises. Politics is about what's possible.
Using force on these guys will only make things worse.
For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them. To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do. Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.
The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives. The ardent activists can't compete with it.
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Look: elections are all about promises. Politics is about what's possible.
Using force on these guys will only make things worse.
For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them. To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do. Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.
The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives. The ardent activists can't compete with it.
Trump thinks of promises as the starting points in a negotiation.
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Whatever we do to the snowflakes, they are going to scream racism/sexism/homoism/purple penguinism. We have to accept that and let them scream. If they cause an issue, so be it. The reality as that as bad as it will be, we cannot let the left hold America hostage any longer. It has to begin somewhere because they will never stop/be talked out of it/whatever.
Just get the guard set up on site doing nothing. THEN announce the new rules on TV and all other media with saturation coverage telling the world, "This is on them". Let them scream. At the designated deadline, the guard goes active.
Give them their chance with ample time, then the party ends.
Theywill then think twice before doing it again. Fallout? Of course. Then they will go back to their basements after a couple failed attempts elsewhere when the process repeats.
Go in with RICO and nail every funder and organizer.
Something not readily apparent, but a quirk of demographics here, nonetheless. While I am not certain of the demographics in the National Guard, the Tribes here hold special honor for those who serve in the armed forces, and I doubt the guard is any exception. The possibility of ordering someone in uniform to face down their Tribal Elders exists. That, frankly, is a severe test of loyalties I would not want to impose on anyone. Like I said. Winter's coming.
The people who have the proverbial ball in their court are the US Army Corps of Engineers. Their past behaviour toward people on Corps land would indicate they are playing favorites now, permitting a group larger than the population of many county seats in ND to camp on Corps land when most folks get run off it if they are just down at the beach, swimming.
The disparity in that treatment is glaring to any who have been so run off, and I'd wager next summer there will be folks out at those areas with brand new signs saying things like "Keep water natural" or some meaningless tripe to see if they get run off (while the rest of the clan is swimming or whatever).
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Trump thinks of promises as the starting points in a negotiation.
That's true -- I think he even said so during the campaign. As a negotiator, he expects his deals to end up somewhere in the middle.
If he's serious about putting Ebell into the EPA, then it's encouraging that his environmental negotiations would start from a rational place.
However, if he's negotiating about who gets nominated to head EPA, then he's probably hoping to end up with a squish.
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Look: elections are all about promises. Politics is about what's possible.
Using force on these guys will only make things worse.
For whatever reasons, people take protests like this seriously, if only in abstract because they only know what a slanted social media is telling them. To make the protesters into victims is the last thing you want to do. Classic guerilla (and Alinsky) tactics include persuading the authorities to meet civil disobedience with force.
The only long-term solution is to establish an MO based on reasonable dialogue with rational representatives. The ardent activists can't compete with it.
OK, serious question. When liberals are unreasonable, which they are, and in charge of bith running and funding these protests, which they are, with whom does one have reasonable dialog? You won't find it in the only two possible sources of influence because they are hard leftists. If politics is about the possible, then this is an impossible situation.
If you go outside their core group, then you have yet another layer of complexity to fight against and only strengthened their numbers while adding yet more time to the delay.
I get that this is not easy. But it is long past time to put feet down on the left. Rational have searched for years and found no dialog. Only more delays, more protests and more lawsuits resulting in more power for the left. It's time to stop talking and start applying the legal system.
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OK, serious question. When liberals are unreasonable, which they are, and in charge of both running and funding these protests, which they are, with whom does one have reasonable dialog? You won't find it in the only two possible sources of influence because they are hard leftists. If politics is about the possible, then this is an impossible situation.
You've hit on the root of the problem. There may be no solution until the situation is publicly named, and publicly remedied. Force is not an option -- it shuts out any solutions short of force.
I don't have a global answer; but I have shown an example of how the process can and does work. If there is a government solution to these protests, then Trump and his minions have the option of naming somebody to deal with the problem. And that person has the freedom to decide with whom he will negotiate. That gets around the systemic bias, because the person authorized to negotiate, also gets to name the team who will carry out the details.
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You've hit on the root of the problem. There may be no solution until the situation is publicly named, and publicly remedied. Force is not an option -- it shuts out any solutions short of force.
I don't have a global answer; but I have shown an example of how the process can and does work. If there is a government solution to these protests, then Trump and his minions have the option of naming somebody to deal with the problem. And that person has the freedom to decide with whom he will negotiate. That gets around the systemic bias, because the person authorized to negotiate, also gets to name the team who will carry out the details.
It works with sane people. It does not work with committed leftists who run these things. You're right. There may be no solution. But one does not negotiate with terrorists. In Iraq or North Dakota.
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More or less true. But as the green lady said above, these things must be done delicately. Ham-fisted responses -- which they're hoping for! -- will make things even worse.
In cases like this, triangulation is the proper approach.
First, acknowledge that, hidden behind the protests, there are some legitimate concerns -- because there probably are. Next, find somebody on the other side who's reasonable -- and there will be such -- and make him the de facto spokesman for the movement. Air concerns and arguments on both sides, and actually attempt to find middle ground -- it's almost certainly there.
This approach has worked well in other places. For example, the logging industry in Oregon was hamstrung like this until a series of enormous fires brought people to their senses. The enviros' total opposition to logging had created a tremendous fuel load, which of course burned. But they had legitimate grievances against the logging practices of the time (vast clear-cutting operations).
After the fires, sensible adults on all sides came together to work out a better way of doing things. As it stands now, the Forest Service, logging concerns, and the enviros seem to have actually done good work in coming up with a workable compromise solution.
I see no reason why it shouldn't be tried in ND as well.
Behind the protests, there is a lot of hyperbole. The "Indian burial ground" tactic is an old one. In this case, there is no burial ground. If remains are found, those are assessed as to origin (Native vs white), and if Indian, the appropriate Shaman(s) brought in to settle the spirits and the grave/remains are either moved or closed and re-routed around. This stuff is handled delicately, not out of politics so much as respect, the same respect we'd accord if a wagonload of settlers had been buried out there on the prairie, too.
Rockpiles (what they are calling "cairns") are common as cat dirt north of the Missouri, just because the last ice sheet seeded the ground with chunks of Canada ranging in size from grains of sand to larger than a Peterbuilt. When farming, those rocks are cleaned out of the soil using a rockpicker (once with a wagon and by hand), and piled off to the side of cultivated fields. there are rockpiles all over North Dakota, evidence of cultivation, not so much occupation otherwise. There are tipi rings, the occasional cairn, and fire pit stones, and I have seen all three, some in incredible states of preservation. Those are pretty obvious by their configuration and by fire reddening of the pit stones. Cairns were piled, with a small footprint often smaller than their height, and usually remain that way. They were used as markers, often for trails, boundaries, and more rarely, graves. It is easy enough to assess which, and natural accumulations are evident, too.
The route the pipeline follows has been surveyed for the Northern Border Gas pipeline, for a power line right of way, and again for this pipeline. Cultural remains would have been found by now, but there are people on site in case any are located while putting the pipeline in.
Rare plants, rare animals, rare insects, items of historical and prehistorical significance have been surveyed for and the right of way is clear of those. Those problems have been addressed, and over 300 meetings have been held with tribal representatives to address any concerns. It isn't like there hasn't been dialogue.
Water issues: The pipeline will pass 80 ft. below the bottom of the river. That will be horizontally drilled to stay well below the bottom of the old river channel. If the Upper Missouri dams were all breached, and the river returned to free flowing for its entire length, it would take centuries, if not millennia, to erode the bottom of the river down to the level of the pipeline. The last problem had with a pipeline on the Missouri (actually, the Yellowstone) was up by Laurel, MT, when during extraordinarily severe river flows after a very fast Spring Melt with record snow pack, the pipeline crossing there was washed out and rocks tumbled against it damaging the line.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxon-mobil-montana-spill-idUSKCN11R29O (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxon-mobil-montana-spill-idUSKCN11R29O)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/03/yellowstone-river-suffers-oil-spill (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/03/yellowstone-river-suffers-oil-spill)
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/02/montana.oil.spill/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/02/montana.oil.spill/index.html)
By placing the line so much lower than the bottom of the river, the chances of a similar incident are removed from the table. Indeed, the company building this pipeline does not want any incident like that, and has taken steps to avoid it.
As pipelines go, this one will be state-of-the art, with the very intention of avoiding problems, partly because of the revenue loss that would accompany such an incident. The profit motive is definitely present to avoid trouble, and being a good neighbor is essential to continued oil activity in any region. The present lines having problems are often much older lines, some pushing half a century or more in age. With those problems have come lessons in avoiding future troubles, and with technology, the ability to prevent them.
Most leaks are associated with equipment operator error, but this leak was apparently from a lightning strike. http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/pipeline-leak-spills-20600-barrels-oil-near-tioga-nd (http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/pipeline-leak-spills-20600-barrels-oil-near-tioga-nd) The initial routing of the pipeline helped limit the damage done, and the cleanup has since been completed.
The result is that better monitoring of pipeline pressures and throughput have been implemented, and helped avoid disaster when protesters broke into facilities and shut valves on pipelines earlier this year. https://sputniknews.com/environment/201610121046243288-oil-pipeline-shutdown-protest/ (https://sputniknews.com/environment/201610121046243288-oil-pipeline-shutdown-protest/)
http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html (http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html)
The bottom line, though is that the Obamites are likely having nocturnal emissions over the whole show. They have tried from day one to shut down the boom in oil produced from unconventional reservoirs like the Bakken/Three Forks, and they aren't going to do anything about it. The disparity in law enforcement efforts is blatant on the part of the Federal Government. https://sputniknews.com/us/201610041045969636-feds-wont-evict-dapl-camp/ (https://sputniknews.com/us/201610041045969636-feds-wont-evict-dapl-camp/)
In the end, if the government won't do anything, the pipeline company will likely have to either re-route or quit. That's just wrong, especially considering the land is not tribal land (not part of a reservation), it was private property with the exception of Corps of Engineers land. If the Tribe had felt there were sacred sites or remains on that land, they have had over a hundred years to find a way to acquire it. This amounts to an illegal 'taking' in that they are seeking to establish a zone of control beyond their own land. That dog won't hunt, but right now, force is what the out of state groups (90% of the 'protest'). are hoping for. They want to be Rachel Corrie, maybe without the caterpillar prints, but of similar stature in their twisted world. Note, in photos of the protest camp, the ubiquitous blue polyethylene tarps, made cheaply by cheap oil. There is nothing quite like hypocrites on parade.
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Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
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Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
Nope. My bad. I made the mistake of assuming it was current. I should know better.
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Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?
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Behind the protests, there is a lot of hyperbole....
That is an outstanding post. It also spells out a good negotiating position.
Of course, the real intent of the protest is against pipelines of all sorts, for lots of reasons. The tactics here are just a variation on the standard "cute, cuddly fish" tactics that have worked for them in the past.
So the way you address such things, is to have "serious, frank, and substantive exchanges of views" with sane spokesmen from the other side. There are some, somewhere. Address actual concerns, even.
And for the rest, there's no rule against leaking the money trail, and exposing their real agenda.
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You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?
@Machiavelli @Norm Lenhart
Actually, the thread has morphed into a discussion of the Dakota Access Pipeline protests, which is a bit of a sidebar. The original thread is about Trump picking a climate 'skeptic' for his transition team, and that being done even before the election (five weeks ago) is significant, in terms of delay. If this pick was made today, it might have more relevance than a promise made before the election. If Trump sticks to the pick, fine, but things have a way of changing after the votes are counted.
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That is an outstanding post.
Of course, the real intent of the protest is against pipelines of all sorts, for lots of reasons. The tactics here just a variation on the standard "cute, cuddly fish" tactics that have worked for them in the past.
So the way you address such things, is to have "serious, frank, and substantive exchanges of views" with sane spokesmen from the other side. There are some, somewhere. Address actual concerns, even.
And for the rest, there's no rule against leaking the money trail, and exposing their real agenda.
My outside the box take on this is simple. It was a thing where the Tribe tried to get a cut of the deal, which was going outside tribal land. Thus, the Tribe could not do the usual trick of forcing contractors to buy licenses to operate on reservation land or hiring Tribal members for crews, both of which are common ways to extract money from any venture operating on tribal land. Nope, the only way to cash in on the pipeline was to claim "burial grounds", which even though unfounded in this case is a flare up for all the enviros and others to protest, too, and collect a 'settlement' as part of deciding there maybe weren't any significant remains there, after all. This sounds cynical, but it happens. Well, oops, that stuff got out of hand.
More media attention than needed, not just a holdup (in more ways than one) but now a huge media circus and a tiger by the tail. Letting go could be problematical for the Tribe, and the various ecowhackos won't relent until incarcerated. The latter are the ones who want to dance naked in the trees (thank God those are in short supply here) and commune with Gaia. They are not reasonable. They break and burn things and chance rupturing four major pipelines by breaking into facilities and tampering with valves, which could burst lines with up to 1000 psi of operating pressure. http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html (http://www.ogj.com/articles/2016/10/groups-express-concerns-as-crude-oil-pipeline-protests-escalate.html)
Think the 'Whale warrior' bit on teevee, and how that ended up, interfering with a lawful harvest.
"Reasonable people" have been talked with (over 300 meetings with Tribal Representatives, nearly 400, in fact), but the rest are out burning vehicles to roadblock bridges and shutting off pipeline valves, and frankly, I don't think the situation on the protest side is under control any more, just contained.
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You realize one of the people in this conversation lives there and it ongoing right?
@Norm Lenhart
No, I did not.
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@Norm Lenhart
No, I did not.
Ultimately it's just a synonym for everything from BLM to the actual Bureau of Land Management anyway. The same subject is repeating in various forms but the conversations for them all are about identical. This thing is the same as every other protest over land/mines/trees etc around the country the left has created.
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@Norm Lenhart
No, I did not.
Actually, I am a couple hundred miles away as the crow flies.
Deputies from our county have been involved in the LEO effort down there, though.
The impact on this area is that half of the oil produced here could be going down that pipeline, at a transport savings of $2.3 million a day.
Feeder pipeline projects which tie into that pipeline are being held up, and aside from the wells that won't be drilled because the money will have been spent sending oil out by BNSF (Warren Buffett's railway), other projects are on hold as well. That translates to a negative economic impact here, but even more, the state relies on extraction taxes (a percentage of oil produced) for part of the budget, income and sales taxes from those operations, etc., some of which goes into a property tax relief fund for the State's school districts.
Everyone in the state is paying more in the near future because of this protest, some more than others, either in terms of lost wages or continued unemployment, reduced oil royalties (generally 20%, but if costs to transport are $5/bbl higher, that translates to a dollar a barrel less mineral owners get as royalty payments), reduced tax revenues: income from jobs that did not materialize or are held up, extraction taxes (a percentage of the value of oil produced), sales taxes (for stuff not bought), and that fund from the extraction tax that goes to offset the school tax on residential property statewide, which will be made up in either budget cuts for education or higher property taxes for everyone (because renters pay property taxes, too, factored in as part of their rent).
The impact is costing everyone in the State, and no Federal assistance has been forthcoming for LEO efforts, which have cost over ten million dollars so far.
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Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
What click the link. People do such a thing? Nope, didn't look at the date. :baghead: 888oops888 888blushing8888
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Did anyone notice the date of this article? It's September 26, 2016. That's almost seven weeks ago. IOW, it's old news. Moreover, it's pre-election. Things may or may not have changed since then, but please stop acting like this is something recent when it isn't. Jesus H. Christ in a sidecar, people! :facepalm2:
All you had to do is to put the guys name into Google and click on tools.
Select past week and you're up to date!
https://www.google.com/search?q=myron+ebell+trump&biw=672&bih=333&tbs=qdr:w&tbm=nws&ei=EWImWPuNIuzejwS0loeoDQ&start=10&sa=N&dpr=2.86
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-environmentalists-idUSKBN1362EU?il=0