The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Energy => Topic started by: EC on June 26, 2017, 06:14:47 am
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When Energy Secretary Rick Perry requested a study of electric grid reliability, wind and solar energy lobbyists were predictably alarmed. Perry wanted to know how federal policies were shaping wholesale electricity markets and whether public policies were responsible for forcing the premature retirement of baseload power plants.
The government has long had a role in the electric power industry, so asking for a survey of its effects should not be controversial.
The reason for the alarm? The request mentioned government mandates and subsidies, which have driven wind and solar energy's growth, as possible drivers of reliability concerns. The industry lobbyists are right to be sensitive. Despite constantly touting the rapidly falling cost of wind and solar, industry growth over the next decade depends on mandates and subsidies.
The lobbyists are not wrong about falling costs. The most recent Wind Technologies Market Report, a Department of Energy (DOE) study, highlights the up to 40 percent drop in wind turbine costs since 2008. Over the same period, solar PV costs have fallen by as much as 70 percent.
Are policies supporting wind and solar energy responsible for the premature retirement of baseload power? In some sense, the answer is obvious. Without wind and solar energy, sales to existing resources would have been higher and most of these resources are only on the grid because of government subsidies and mandates.
While low natural gas prices due to fracking have figured into the closure of coal fired power plants, a rise in regulatory compliance costs is playing a prominent role according to a 2013 study in Environmental Science & Technology. From the consumer’s view, coal power’s loss to natural gas is mostly market-driven and produces lower electricity prices, but coal’s loss to wind and solar has been driven by government mandates and subsidies that drive costs higher.
More: http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/energy-environment/339365-doe-grid-study-has-wind-and-solar-lobbyists-spooked
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I would love to see the operations subsidies for wind suddenly eliminated, along with the proviso the companies operating the windmills cannot walk away from them without a plan to take them down.
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I would love to see the operations subsidies for wind suddenly eliminated, along with the proviso the companies operating the windmills cannot walk away from them without a plan to take them down.
Hey, you're being green!!!! Returning the land to the state from whence it came. :tongue2:
Not a bad idea at all, to my mind. We're stewards of the land. Not owners.
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I would love to see the operations subsidies for wind suddenly eliminated, along with the proviso the companies operating the windmills cannot walk away from them without a plan to take them down.
Consider (at least here, and on Federal Land) Oil and Gas companies are required to post reclamation bonds to reclaim wellsites, access roads, and production facilities, it is only environmental justice that those same regulations exist for wind and solar power generation facilities and the reclamation of sites and access roads to restore the natural landscape.
Any less would be to force taxpayers to subsidize long-term environmental degradation.
post 1-2-3-4-5!
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Nothing against small scale solar, but if wind and solar are so great (as we are repeatedly told by those on the left) why do they need subsidies?
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My neighbor just had solar panels put on his house. He said it should provide all of his electricity and virtually eliminate his electric bill. My guess is he's paying an average of $250 per month for electric.
About a year ago I got talked into letting a solar company come to my house and talk me into the same deal. The pre-subsidized cost of the solar panels and power distribution was around $70,000. They wouldn't guarantee the State would actually provide the subsidies in which case the entire amount would be my responsibility.
I wouldnt mind a backup during hurricanes but cmon folks. It will take a long time to pay those panels off at $250 a month.
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My neighbor just had solar panels put on his house. He said it should provide all of his electricity and virtually eliminate his electric bill. My guess is he's paying an average of $250 per month for electric.
About a year ago I got talked into letting a solar company come to my house and talk me into the same deal. The pre-subsidized cost of the solar panels and power distribution was around $70,000. They wouldn't guarantee the State would actually provide the subsidies in which case the entire amount would be my responsibility.
I wouldnt mind a backup during hurricanes but cmon folks. It will take a long time to pay those panels off at $250 a month.
I can tell you from personal experience that you will NEVER see a return on a solar installation if you take into account ALL of the maintence costs!
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I wouldnt mind a backup during hurricanes but cmon folks. It will take a long time to pay those panels off at $250 a month.
@driftdriver
@CatherineofAragon
@Freya
I lived in hurricane territory. When a hurricane would take out power, I had a phone that worked, a TV that worked, radios that worked, fans that worked, lights that worked, 10 ways to cook, food for a year, good water for as long as I needed it, and running water when I had no running water. I'm writing a book about that right now.
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Nothing against small scale solar, but if wind and solar are so great (as we are repeatedly told by those on the left) why do they need subsidies?
At the same time we're subsidizing tearing out dams that could be producing electricity at night and when the wind isn't blowing. However, retrofitting dams to repower them also would be subsidized because little gets done without federal funds these days but the right dams would pay for themselves fairly quickly.
A few years back in Michigan a private contractor offered to rebuild a dam on the Boardman river and generate power to be fed into the grid. Instead his requests were refused and they tore the dam out, managed to flood a couple dozen homes downstream while permanently contaminating the wells with heavy metals that were in the sediment from the paper plant that once existed above the dam. As an added bonus they completely destroyed the value of the homers surrounding the lake created by the dam.
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@driftdriver
@CatherineofAragon
@Freya
I lived in hurricane territory. When a hurricane would take out power, I had a phone that worked, a TV that worked, radios that worked, fans that worked, lights that worked, 10 ways to cook, food for a year, good water for as long as I needed it, and running water when I had no running water. I'm writing a book about that right now.
Back in 2004 I know a lot of people that went 3-4 weeks without electricity. Not fun in the Florida summer. Most of the damage to the power lines was caused by falling trees. Trees that should have been kept trimmed by the power company but weren't.
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Back in 2004 I know a lot of people that went 3-4 weeks without electricity. Not fun in the Florida summer. Most of the damage to the power lines was caused by falling trees. Trees that should have been kept trimmed by the power company but weren't.
@driftdriver
Anyone who lives in Florida needs to be prepared for power outage, but they don't do it. I've had people in Florida get in touch with me to tell them what to do. One was a ex military Seal and an author of best selling books, but he had nothing but his boat. Now, he is prepared.
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@driftdriver
Anyone who lives in Florida needs to be prepared for power outage, but they don't do it. I've had people in Florida get in touch with me to tell them what to do. One was a ex military Seal and an author of best selling books, but he had nothing but his boat. Now, he is prepared.
@Victoria33
I've lived in Florida almost 20 years and have had two outages of about 12 hours each caused by hurricanes. I have a very small generator which can support some lights and a fan or two. If I lived further out then I'd have a propane generator but the lines to my house are buried so really I'm dependent on the substations.
I have plenty of food, means to cook it and the means to sanitize/purify water. I only need to dig down about 12 inches to get water in my yard so that isn't a concern. Not to mention a small river about 100 yds away.
I've read his books, btw.
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@Victoria33
I have plenty of food, means to cook it and the means to sanitize/purify water. I only need to dig down about 12 inches to get water in my yard so that isn't a concern. Not to mention a small river about 100 yds away.
I've read his books, btw.
@driftdiver
I am really glad you have those preps. Having water nearby that you can purify saves your life.
On another forum some years ago, I had private communication with a woman and her husband who lived in Florida and the husband was also a retired Seal. Florida must attract Seals. They lived in more northern Florida. After hurricane Andrew, he volunteered to go on a truck to deliver water to those affected by Andrew. When their truck got to the appointed place, he went to the back of the truck. The collected people rushed the truck and started intense fighting. In fear of his life, the Seal got back in the truck and they left. He said he would never do that again.
After hurricane Ike came in at Galveston, it went through Houston and immediately after it passed, many in Houston were wanting water from FEMA right then. These people had not prepared with any water at all. How stupid can you get? Houston water did get polluted and no one was to drink that water. FEMA trucks cannot get to a place immediately. Depending on government to save your life is giving your life to some one else. People like that are "one doters". They can only see right now, can't visualize the rest of the dots, as in what happens in the future if they take no action now.
There will likely be a hurricane this year and many people will again have no water stored and be begging for FEMA. In a real emergency lasting for weeks to a month or more, these people will be the first to die.
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I wouldnt mind a backup during hurricanes but cmon folks. It will take a long time to pay those panels off at $250 a month.
A backup for hurricanes?
You do realize the wind strength of a hurricane will make those panels airborne?
Best preparation is a gas or diesel powered generator like I have.
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A backup for hurricanes?
You do realize the wind strength of a hurricane will make those panels airborne?
Best preparation is a gas or diesel powered generator like I have.
@IsailedawayfromFR
The panels charge battery banks. The panels are rated for 120mph winds or a cat 3. Doesn't matter they are too expensive
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A backup for hurricanes?
You do realize the wind strength of a hurricane will make those panels airborne?
Best preparation is a gas or diesel powered generator like I have.
Or propane like mine.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
The panels charge battery banks. The panels are rated for 120mph winds or a cat 3. Doesn't matter they are too expensive
The shingles on my roof were rated that high too, and they still blew off during Hurricane Ike.
Good luck if you ever do try that.
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Or propane like mine.
This is like the one I have, but that is definitely not my car.
(http://cached-assets.patriotpost.us/images/2017-06-23-2f3bce51_large.jpg)
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Or propane like mine.
I was out of power for about 2 weeks after a hurricane. I had converted an ancient Onan 1800 rpm 2400 watt gen to propane. I was feeding it off a 100# bottle. After a week, I thought I'd better find a supply of propane before I needed it. I went on a quest to find propane. I drove from Houston/Hobby almost to Angleton before I found propane. It was a small outfit running off a diesel gen. So I picked up a 60# bottle while I was there. A few days later I hooked the gen into my house's natural gas and ran it on nat gas until the power came back.
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My neighbor just had solar panels put on his house. He said it should provide all of his electricity and virtually eliminate his electric bill. My guess is he's paying an average of $250 per month for electric.
About a year ago I got talked into letting a solar company come to my house and talk me into the same deal. The pre-subsidized cost of the solar panels and power distribution was around $70,000. They wouldn't guarantee the State would actually provide the subsidies in which case the entire amount would be my responsibility.
I wouldnt mind a backup during hurricanes but cmon folks. It will take a long time to pay those panels off at $250 a month.
And I would guess the $70k was for the solar panels only and not the battery bank required to run the house full time. By the time things need to be replaced at end of life you would be lucky to break even; like so lucky you should have won Powerball by now.
My husband is an electrical engineer. He did the calcs to see what would be needed to run our whole house. Besides the entire south facing roof covered in solar panels, half of the 2 car garage would be filled with batteries.
We are fairly rural though and are on well and septic, so we converted the well to run on solar/battery power. In the middle of the state the chances of seeing winds higher than Cat 3 are low, and if it does happen we have a regular gas powered generator.
If we had the extra $150k kicking around to convert completely to solar power we would do it, simply to get off the grid, but it really doesn't make sense for the average person.
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I was out of power for about 2 weeks after a hurricane. I had converted an ancient Onan 1800 rpm 2400 watt gen to propane. I was feeding it off a 100# bottle. After a week, I thought I'd better find a supply of propane before I needed it. I went on a quest to find propane. I drove from Houston/Hobby almost to Angleton before I found propane. It was a small outfit running off a diesel gen. So I picked up a 60# bottle while I was there. A few days later I hooked the gen into my house's natural gas and ran it on nat gas until the power came back.
I just made a provision to tie mine into the house propane piping. What I love about propane is that it burns so clean that the generator is practically maintenance free even with long periods of non use. No gumed up carbs as with gasoline.
If you live anywhere with natural gas service you can have a NG powered stand by generator that will power your whole house for as long as necessary for under $10K. Very unlikely that you would lose gas service unless everything goes underwater.
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Consider (at least here, and on Federal Land) Oil and Gas companies are required to post reclamation bonds to reclaim wellsites, access roads, and production facilities, it is only environmental justice that those same regulations exist for wind and solar power generation facilities and the reclamation of sites and access roads to restore the natural landscape.
Any less would be to force taxpayers to subsidize long-term environmental degradation.
post 1-2-3-4-5!
:amen:
Those wind farms are a darn site uglier than conventional power plants. And take up a lot more real estate. Driving I-70 through Kansas they are creepy looking.
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@driftdriver
Anyone who lives in Florida needs to be prepared for power outage, but they don't do it. I've had people in Florida get in touch with me to tell them what to do. One was a ex military Seal and an author of best selling books, but he had nothing but his boat. Now, he is prepared.
My parents live in Florida. They tell me all you need to stock up on for hurricanes is wine, chocolate, and toilet paper!
:silly: :silly: :silly:
(seriously tho they have a generator and their needs covered if they choose to stay around during a storm)
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I just made a provision to tie mine into the house propane piping. What I love about propane is that it burns so clean that the generator is practically maintenance free even with long periods of non use. No gumed up carbs as with gasoline.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,269248.0.html
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I just made a provision to tie mine into the house propane piping. What I love about propane is that it burns so clean that the generator is practically maintenance free even with long periods of non use. No gumed up carbs as with gasoline.
If you live anywhere with natural gas service you can have a NG powered stand by generator that will power your whole house for as long as necessary. Very unlikely that you would lose gas service unless everything goes underwater.
My generator died a few times after running for hours. I discovered it was weak spark. I replaced the coil with one for a car I had lying around. Ran good after that.
I converted my jeep many years ago to dual fuel. I love the fact that as long as the battery is hot, it'll always start right up on propane. No mater how long it has been sitting up.
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My generator died a few times after running for hours. I discovered it was weak spark. I replaced the coil with one for a car I had lying around. Ran good after that.
I converted my jeep many years ago to dual fuel. I love the fact that as long as the battery is hot, it'll always start right up on propane. No mater how long it has been sitting up.
First oilfield company I worked for had pickups that ran on either propane or gasoline. When it got down below -30, you had to start them on gasoline and warm them up so the propane would vaporize. After that warmup, though they would run fine.
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The shingles on my roof were rated that high too, and they still blew off during Hurricane Ike.
Good luck if you ever do try that.
Generators are noisy and attract attention. Something to avoid even during hurricanes.
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Generators are noisy and attract attention. Something to avoid even during hurricanes.
Noisy is what attracted me to the Honda Inverter Generator.
Runs about as noisy as a refrigerator.
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Noisy is what attracted me to the Honda Inverter Generator.
Runs about as noisy as a refrigerator.
LOL! You should hear my fridge!
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http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,269248.0.html
Propane is being exported because the immense growth of Natural Gas Liquid production from shale formations. It is in more abundant supply than it was before. And a far more stable product for long term storage than our ethanol-gasoline blend.
U.S. Natural Gas Plant Liquids Production
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9060us2a.htm
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Noisy is what attracted me to the Honda Inverter Generator.
Runs about as noisy as a refrigerator.
@IsailedawayfromFR
I get it, you love your generator.
Honda makes good generators. They still make noise, require maintenance, are expensive, and can be dangerous if not handled properly.
IMO its ridiculous to spend $4,000+ on a generator you might use twice in 20 years to protect $200 worth of food in the fridge.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
I get it, you love your generator.
Honda makes good generators. They still make noise, require maintenance, are expensive, and can be dangerous if not handled properly.
IMO its ridiculous to spend $4,000+ on a generator you might use twice in 20 years to protect $200 worth of food in the fridge.
You don't need $4k just to run a fridge. I've got three freezers with meat far exceeding $200 (just in one of them).
I spent a week without utility power following Ike. When home after home became empty with the owners moving to hotels and family members, our street looked like a buffet for a thief.
Our generator let us run nearly everything except the main A/C. It was an older, cheaper and noisy unit.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
I get it, you love your generator.
Honda makes good generators. They still make noise, require maintenance, are expensive, and can be dangerous if not handled properly.
IMO its ridiculous to spend $4,000+ on a generator you might use twice in 20 years to protect $200 worth of food in the fridge.
I don't know about others but my generator does a great deal more than just protect food during an emergency. I'm an extra class amateur radio operator and a participant in the national hurricane network.
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You don't need $4k just to run a fridge. I've got three freezers with meat far exceeding $200 (just in one of them).
I spent a week without utility power following Ike. When home after home became empty with the owners moving to hotels and family members, our street looked like a buffet for a thief.
Our generator let us run nearly everything except the main A/C. It was an older, cheaper and noisy unit.
The cost over 20 years is certainly a lot more than the initial purchase price.
If I lived in a less populated area I would probably think about it. Where I live now has enough people that its a priority for the electric company. The less populated areas or problems affecting fewer people are a lower priority.
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The cost over 20 years is certainly a lot more than the initial purchase price.
If I lived in a less populated area I would probably think about it. Where I live now has enough people that its a priority for the electric company. The less populated areas or problems affecting fewer people are a lower priority.
I was in a postage sized suburban lot. I'm now out in the country but back then there was a LOT of homes without power for nearly a month, not just rural customers.
It is insurance. I don't plan to even break even on insurance of my lifetime. That isn't the point of insurance.
It was the ability to function in my home, get news, use the internet, use the phone, wash and dry clothes, dishes, stay reasonably in my home and not pay for a hotel, etc...
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The cost over 20 years is certainly a lot more than the initial purchase price.
If I lived in a less populated area I would probably think about it. Where I live now has enough people that its a priority for the electric company. The less populated areas or problems affecting fewer people are a lower priority.
https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/09/12/restoring-power-what-houston-learned-from-ike/
Hurricane Ike was a strong Category 2 storm when it made landfall in Galveston, leaving 95 percent of CenterPoint’s 2.26 million customers in the dark. Ten days later, 75 percent of them had power restored.
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https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/09/12/restoring-power-what-houston-learned-from-ike/
Hurricane Ike was a strong Category 2 storm when it made landfall in Galveston, leaving 95 percent of CenterPoint’s 2.26 million customers in the dark. Ten days later, 75 percent of them had power restored.
I live in central Florida. In 2004 we had 4 hurricanes hit within about 6 weeks. I had two outages of about 12 hours each.
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I live in central Florida. In 2004 we had 4 hurricanes hit within about 6 weeks. I had two outages of about 12 hours each.
You have been fortunate. How close where you to the path of Hurricane Charley?
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/9ef371bf460e8ad0bc476b26df43ef343c92a8ea/c=0-62-540-468&r=x1767&c=2352x1764/local/-/media/FortMyers/FortMyers/2014/08/09/1407614764000-CharleyMapFinal.png)
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You have been fortunate. How close where you to the path of Hurricane Charley?
The eye went through about 30 miles south and then east from me. That was the one that was headed for us so people evacuated, right into its path.
Thru the storms the highest wind we experienced was about 124 mph but really it was 70-100mph for a couple hours and 60mph for a long time (12 hours as I recall). Our palm tree whipped against the roof and took off a couple of the shingles. For us Charley was just a lot of rain and winds up to about 60mph. Anything 3 or less and I'm not evacuating.
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The eye went through about 30 miles south and then east from me. That was the one that was headed for us so people evacuated, right into its path.
Thru the storms the highest wind we experienced was about 124 mph but really it was 70-100mph for a couple hours and 60mph for a long time (12 hours as I recall). Our palm tree whipped against the roof and took off a couple of the shingles. For us Charley was just a lot of rain and winds up to about 60mph. Anything 3 or less and I'm not evacuating.
Florida lost at least 3 power plants with damage and some significant major transmission line damage. Over 1.3 million without power the next day. In some areas they were still trying to assess the damage at that point before beginning repairs.
http://www.oe.netl.doe.gov/docs/charley/hurrcharley_sitrept_081404_1900.pdf
Even 10 days later there was about ~80,000 still without power, half of those in Charlotte county.
http://www.oe.netl.doe.gov/docs/charley/hurrcharley_sitrept_082304_1200.pdf
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Florida lost at least 3 power plants with damage and some significant major transmission line damage. Over 1.3 million without power the next day. In some areas they were still trying to assess the damage at that point before beginning repairs.
http://www.oe.netl.doe.gov/docs/charley/hurrcharley_sitrept_081404_1900.pdf
Even 10 days later there was about ~80,000 still without power, half of those in Charlotte county.
http://www.oe.netl.doe.gov/docs/charley/hurrcharley_sitrept_082304_1200.pdf
Yes I know, I live just north of there.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
I get it, you love your generator.
Honda makes good generators. They still make noise, require maintenance, are expensive, and can be dangerous if not handled properly.
IMO its ridiculous to spend $4,000+ on a generator you might use twice in 20 years to protect $200 worth of food in the fridge.
Mine cost me $800, and it is for emergency power for fridge as well as I use it out at farm with power equipment instead of a cord.
I do not know where you get a stat on $4,000+ for a generator, nor do I know where you say it is used only twice in 20 years. I have more power outages than that.
Compare my $800 with the ridiculous cost of solar paneling of $70k. And my generator runs at night without batteries.
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https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/09/12/restoring-power-what-houston-learned-from-ike/
Hurricane Ike was a strong Category 2 storm when it made landfall in Galveston, leaving 95 percent of CenterPoint’s 2.26 million customers in the dark. Ten days later, 75 percent of them had power restored.
Ike got me a good deal on my farm truck when I walked into a Ford showroom the first day the dealership opened after being down a week. They were still without power, were running no AC but had generators running some lights and computers, and were very very eager to make a deal after being closed so long.
Watch for hurricane sales.
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Watch for hurricane sales.
Good tip. Makes sense for a lot of large items.
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I'd love to have enough solar to run the fridges/freezers for a couple hours a day (not at the same time, and that's a low priority, honestly I could live w/o the food but being able to make ice would be a luxury), charge flashlights/batteries, run the shopvac (could be very important where I live), a few fans, etc. Of course solar is not always available, so it would complement the generator (use solar when I can to save fuel -- no natural gas here). Last time I looked it's still bloody expensive, but I wholeheartedly agree with thackney, it's insurance.
I'm on the fence about external lighting, safety vs making myself a target -- given my neighborhood it would probably come down to how many of the neighbors were around.
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Good tip. Makes sense for a lot of large items.
Except generators. ;)
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Except generators. ;)
You got that right.
The generator I ran after Ike on the Southwest side of Houston came from meeting a buddy halfway from Dallas who brought it down to me, along with 4 each 5 gallons can of gasoline. Yeah, he's a good friend.
I wasn't as prepared then as I am now.
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@IsailedawayfromFR
I get it, you love your generator.
Honda makes good generators. They still make noise, require maintenance, are expensive, and can be dangerous if not handled properly.
IMO its ridiculous to spend $4,000+ on a generator you might use twice in 20 years to protect $200 worth of food in the fridge.
The last time power went out here, it was a three day blackout during a blizzard. Three major high tension lines feeding into the area went down at the same time. Now, the weather was fairly mild, hovering just below freezing, so we all camped out around the fireplace, closed off the 'dry' parts of the house and kept the plumbing from freezing just fine.
Had that happened when the temps were more on the order of -30, a generator just to run the forced air furnace would have been a godsend. Call it insurance. The plumbing in this 100+ year old house was an afterthought, and is copper. Keeping that from freezing would be worth the 4K alone.
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The last time power went out here, it was a three day blackout during a blizzard. Three major high tension lines feeding into the area went down at the same time. Now, the weather was fairly mild, hovering just below freezing, so we all camped out around the fireplace, closed off the 'dry' parts of the house and kept the plumbing from freezing just fine.
Had that happened when the temps were more on the order of -30, a generator just to run the forced air furnace would have been a godsend. Call it insurance. The plumbing in this 100+ year old house was an afterthought, and is copper. Keeping that from freezing would be worth the 4K alone.
I live in Tampa, not much chance of pipes freezing here.
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I live in central Florida. In 2004 we had 4 hurricanes hit within about 6 weeks. I had two outages of about 12 hours each.
After my parents area took a direct hit with a cat 3 FEMA allowed free generators to all residents - they just had to go to home depot and pick it out.... Not my favorite use of tax $ but if you are in an affected area the question is worth asking.
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I'm on the fence about external lighting, safety vs making myself a target -- given my neighborhood it would probably come down to how many of the neighbors were around.
After a week without power following Hurricane Ike, I counted 3 of us left out of the ~60 homes on our street.
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I live in Tampa, not much chance of pipes freezing here.
I live in North Dakota. I have known three people who did. Pipes freezing is fairly common, but with no power in the winter, both can happen.
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I live in North Dakota. I have known three people who did. Pipes freezing is fairly common, but with no power in the winter, both can happen.
I used to live in Aberdeen SD and had family out by Lemon SD. There is a reason I'm in Tampa.
Each person has their own needs. For me spending the money for a generator doesn't make sense. Each to their own.
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I used to live in Aberdeen SD and had family out by Lemon SD. There is a reason I'm in Tampa.
Each person has their own needs. For me spending the money for a generator doesn't make sense. Each to their own.
Yeah. It's be like buying flip flops here...