The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Topic started by: Dexter on August 31, 2014, 02:04:41 pm
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So I want to preface all of this by saying I am agnostic. I even tend to lean a little more towards the side of there probably being a God. I am not a Christian, and I am going to ask some questions that some here might not like. Nonetheless they are questions that I've always wanted answered. If you're offended by non-Christians asking questions about Christianity, this is not the thread for you. My intention here is not to offend anybody, and I cannot emphasize this point enough. Anybody that starts spitting fire and getting upset at me will not get a response. This is a thread for intellectual discussion about religion.
One of the things that never seemed to make sense to me was God condemning people to eternal suffering in Hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime as to deserve eternal damnation? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting something.) So why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
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I can only tell you my beliefs on the subject. I'm a Christian and I believe I will have eternal life with my Lord and Creator. I believe in the Bible, but I don't take every verse literally. Being a young girl questioning why the Bible speaks of men being dominant over women, I prayed and came to the rationale that the Bible was written by men and in the perspective of those times. So, I let my conscience be my guide on things like that.
The same for my belief that on Judgement Day, God will judge us by what is in our hearts. To believe in God, you have to believe there is a greater power than you and you have to forego the great pride that you have anything without God.
God is order, evil is chaos. To see the order in the universe is to see the work of God. When we have order in our hearts, we are at a place where we can strive to create more order in the world around us - and I think that is how we advance, as a species - beyond that of basic animalistic desires to that of building a world that is truly great.
That is what God wants from us. To achieve at our greatest potential and that is what he wants for the people he brings to live with him eternally. I don't think our work is done after our soul leaves this earth and joins God. I think we progress to a higher state of being, and who knows what that will be like. I can't wait to find out!
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I can only tell you my beliefs on the subject. I'm a Christian and I believe I will have eternal life with my Lord and Creator. I believe in the Bible, but I don't take every verse literally. Being a young girl questioning why the Bible speaks of men being dominant over women, I prayed and came to the rationale that the Bible was written by men and in the perspective of those times. So, I let my conscience be my guide on things like that.
The same for my belief that on Judgement Day, God will judge us by what is in our hearts. To believe in God, you have to believe there is a greater power than you and you have to forego the great pride that you have anything without God.
God is order, evil is chaos. To see the order in the universe is to see the work of God. When we have order in our hearts, we are at a place where we can strive to create more order in the world around us - and I think that is how we advance, as a species - beyond that of basic animalistic desires to that of building a world that is truly great.
That is what God wants from us. To achieve at our greatest potential and that is what he wants for the people he brings to live with him eternally. I don't think our work is done after our soul leaves this earth and joins God. I think we progress to a higher state of being, and who knows what that will be like. I can't wait to find out!
Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?
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Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?
Yes, I do believe that. God does know our hearts - he says he knew us before we were born. To be a "good" person is to put others before yourself and that is what Jesus wants us to do.
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I am a fellow agnostic, but I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am familiar with Catholic doctrine. I was always taught that a person who has not been exposed to the teachings of Christ is not subject to condemnation to hell. It applies only to those who have had the opportunity to accept Christ and rejected Him.
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I am a fellow agnostic, but I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am familiar with Catholic doctrine. I was always taught that a person who has not been exposed to the teachings of Christ is not subject to condemnation to hell. It applies only to those who have had the opportunity to accept Christ and rejected Him.
I was referring to the latter honestly, but I can see how I should have worded that better. Maybe I should have said "willful ignorance."
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I was referring to the latter honestly, but I can see how I should have worded that better. Maybe I should have said "willful ignorance."
I think in the case of "willful ignorance" it would depend on the kind of life the person has led.
Catholics believe in different scenarios other than just heaven and hell. Heaven is the best possible outcome, and hell is the worst. But there are others, including purgatory and limbo. In fact, there is nothing in Catholicism that categorically dismisses reincarnation, and there are a few Catholic theologians who think people serve purgatories right here on earth, coming back time and again until they get it right. Kind of like the movie "Groundhog Day." This is very much a minority view within the church. Most Catholics subscribe to the idea "one soul/one body." But it is pretty much universal in Catholicism that there are other options beyond just heaven and hell.
In John 14:6 Christ says:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
This makes it pretty clear that Christ is the only path to heaven. But it by no means condemns everyone else to hell.
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Thank you for taking the time to post; your perspective is always welcome. Do you believe a nonbeliever with a good heart that strives to do good things in life has earned their place in Heaven after they die?
Based on what I've read in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, I do not believe we can "earn" our way into Heaven through doing good things. I'll provide two different translations/paraphrases for your consideration. You can determine which one is most understandable and, I hope, helpful in answering your question.
The Message Bible:1 It wasn't so long ago that you were mired in that old stagnant life of sin. 2 You let the world, which doesn't know the first thing about living, tell you how to live. You filled your lungs with polluted unbelief, and then exhaled disobedience. 3 We all did it, all of us doing what we felt like doing, when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat. It's a wonder God didn't lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us. 4 Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, 5 he embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ. He did all this on his own, with no help from us! 6 Then he picked us up and set us down in highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah. 7 Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus. 8 Saving is all his idea, and all his work. All we do is trust him enough to let him do it. It's God's gift from start to finish! 9 We don't play the major role. If we did, we'd probably go around bragging that we'd done the whole thing! 10 No, we neither make nor save ourselves. God does both the making and saving. He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing.
New International Version:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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I prefer to live by two Commandments
1) Treat thy neighbor as thyself.
2) Due upon others as they do unto you. But do it first.
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Based on what I've read in Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1-10, I do not believe we can "earn" our way into Heaven through doing good things.
Humanity insisted that there must be some way to live other than what God has required since the first two were created.
Doesn't look like that will change anytime soon...
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why would a non believer care about heaven and hell? Why would they even be thinking about it?
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I believe in logic so therefore I believe it is illogical to think that there isn't a devine being much much much greater than us.
There are things about the Christian religion that keep me from being a true Christian but I try my best to live as a Christian.
I believe that much of The Bible is actually based on facts. Mysteries of The Bible is one of my favorite books and shows.
Is He out there watching over us and taking care of us? Watching us, maybe. Taking care of us, not a chance.
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So I want to preface all of this by saying I am agnostic. I even tend to lean a little more towards the side of there probably being a God. I am not a Christian, and I am going to ask some questions that some here might not like. Nonetheless they are questions that I've always wanted answered. If you're offended by non-Christians asking questions about Christianity, this is not the thread for you. My intention here is not to offend anybody, and I cannot emphasize this point enough. Anybody that starts spitting fire and getting upset at me will not get a response. This is a thread for intellectual discussion about religion.
One of the things that never seemed to make sense to me was God condemning people to eternal suffering in Hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime as to deserve eternal damnation? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting something.) So why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
He wouldn't. If you do something good, you are acting in God's name, even if you don't know it. What matters is he knows yours.
Look - I'm Catholic. We have a mini hell (purgatory) where you pay for bleep up before walking through the Gates. But even Hell itself is not eternal. The Lord knows his own. Wants all of us to join him. Think of hell as an exceptionally harsh lesson.
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This is from the LDS point of view of the Ten Commandments
On Mount Sinai, the Lord gave a law for Moses to convey to the house of Israel. Engraved on stone tablets, the Ten Commandments spelled out some fundamental principles by which God’s people should conduct their personal and spiritual lives as well as their dealings with one another. We have record of these principles in Exodus chapter 20.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or Mormons) continue to abide by the Ten Commandments. They understand that these basic guidelines form a strong foundation for society as well as for one’s personal life. A candidate for baptism in the Mormon Church must declare in a private interview that he or she believes in and observes certain things, including the Ten Commandments.
Mormon Moses1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Beyond our merely abstaining from the worship of pagan (false) gods, the Lord forbids that we displace Him by loving other things or people more than Him and His commandments. Mormons strive to put God always first in their lives, keeping in check their desires regarding financial security, recreation, education, friendships, and even family relations. One example of this is the practice of Mormon males’ leaving on two-year missions to preach the gospel at the age of 19. Many postpone schooling and even sacrifice scholarships in order to serve the Lord first. Another example is the fact that many people who have become convinced to join the Mormon Church through the influence of the Holy Ghost do so despite being disowned by parents and cast out from their native societies. Again, such Mormons see the importance of putting God first; they recognize that even Jesus declared that His gospel causes division (Luke 12:51-53).
2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image . . . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them . . . .Idols come in many forms. The Egyptians and many other ancient societies fashioned statues and other pieces of art which they worshiped as deity. Some religions today have icons and other portrayals of historical figures, before which adherents light candles, kneel, and pray. Other religions include the practice of ancestor worship. Modern societies with virtually no religion also observe a kind of idolatry in the shape of materialism-the love of worldly goods and luxuries. Little room is left for the true Lord when people are so preoccupied with various idols.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. Faithful Mormons are strict in not using careless exclamations that are so very common in the world, such as, “Oh, my Lord!” and, “Oh, God!” The only reason this author chose to actually write out these exclamations-after a great deal of trepidation-was to ensure that all readers will understand exactly what is in question. Let it be known that such phrases are not an expression of faith, but are a display of great disrespect for God. This commandment has a second meaning. By using the name of God or the Savior, we are invoking their power. To do so in meaningless expression is to use their names uselessly, or in vain.
4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Please refer to this website’s detailed article on the Sabbath.
5 Honour thy father and thy mother . . . .Family relationships are continually emphasized in the Mormon Church (see our article on families). Even when a non-Mormon parent has disowned a child for joining the Church, the child is encouraged to do everything possible to maintain positive and respectful relations with the parent, show a good example and, with a spirit of gratitude, remember all the good things that the parent taught, even if in the end that parent does not embrace what Mormons believe to be the fulness of the gospel. Furthermore, Mormons show respect and consideration not just for their immediate parents but also for grandparents and more distant ancestors. They trace their genealogy (family trees), learning all they can about their forebears and even doing special work for them by proxy in Mormon temples.
6 Thou shalt not kill. Mormons do not interpret this commandment to mean that eating meat is forbidden; rather, they believe that animals are given by God for the use of man, but are to be used wisely and sparingly. As far as killing other humans, whom Mormons believe are nothing less than brothers and sisters under God, the law is strict with but few exceptions: capital punishment, warfare against an enemy which threatens our liberty or families, and the like.
7 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Please refer to this website’s detailed article on chastity.
8 Thou shalt not steal. Mormons understand that stealing may include such dishonest practices as purchasing pirated music and movies, riding on a bus without a ticket, not working hard for one’s wages, lying on an income tax return, and others. Mormons try to rise above the worldly habit of justifying little sins, and cutting corners in keeping the commandments. (On the other hand, they strive to keep a healthy and wise balance by not obeying the “letter of the law” so fanatically or sanctimoniously that they miss out on the “spirit of the law.”)
9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Besides avoiding the fabrication of stories in an effort to get others in trouble or to conceal our own faults, members of the Mormon Church also are taught to avoid gossip and backbiting, which can be very destructive to the speaker, the hearer, and the victim. Even if a person has truly done something wrong, there are times when no comment is needed and other times when the act should be reported to the proper authority-but still not to the neighborhood. The world finds great pleasure in “dirty laundry,” and the news and popular television programs are driven by it. Mormons are taught to be very cautious about engaging in such things.
10 Thou shalt not covet . . . .Jealousy is fueled by pride, which is an attitude where people believe that they are more deserving of possessing something owned by another. Envy and pride lead to so much strife, neglect, and abuse between people. They lead to self-justification, thievery, adultery, murder . . . in all, a complete abandonment of God’s commandments, because pride eventually puts us at odds even with Him. The Book of Mormon is very powerful in describing two distinct nations that were obliterated because of pride, and this after they had enjoyed so many blessings from the Lord because of earlier obedience to the gospel of Christ.
The Ten Commandments are a wonderful means to individual and societal happiness. Mormons stand firm in declaring that the Lord has never rescinded them. Observance of these basic laws is actually more imperative in these, the latter days, than ever before.
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Total side note: Trigger!!! You well my friend?
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Total side note: Trigger!!! You well my friend?
I am doing fine. I just received my bill from the medical procedures, doctor visits and medications and my normal insurance only covered part of it. So I had liquidate all of my trips in order pay of it. Obamacare has raised rates across the board to the point its not affordable.
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I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures. :pondering:
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why would a non believer care about heaven and hell? Why would they even be thinking about it?
I have always had a fascination with seeing the world from the perspective of other people, even if I don't see it that way.
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I am doing fine. I just received my bill from the medical procedures, doctor visits and medications and my normal insurance only covered part of it. So I had liquidate all of my trips in order pay of it. Obamacare has raised rates across the board to the point its not affordable.
That blows. **nononono*
Still, You are alive and in one piece, that's a plus!
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I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures. :pondering:
I find it hard to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. What I'm going to say now will cause a lot of disagreement with me - but I'm going to state MY opinion and I don't really care to argue about it:
The Bible does say that when God created us he said, "Let us create man in OUR own image".
So I believe that the form we are as humans is in the image of God.
But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.
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I guess I wanted to lead into somewhat what Alice was talking about earlier. I wanted to know how many believe that human interpretation of God's exact intentions may not have not been perfect considering the time period. I believe that if God did exist in the Christian sense He would have a much more mild approach to the universe than the Bible seems to indicate. One of the other things I kind of disagree with is God's apparent obsession with humans in particular. As many of you may know, I believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life is an inevitability in the vast expanses of the universe. I believe we are just one more species among countless billions. I don't think God would focus on just one species, us. I think that thought process is kind of self important. Maybe when we get to Heaven we'll meet all kind of weird looking creatures. :pondering:
Tricky. You are asking eminently fallible beings to second guess the one infallible one. Still - He hates a coward, so lets take a swing at it.
God created everything. That is right there in the start of the book we got given. No where does it say that we are His only concern, rather the opposite. He thinks about everything and everyone. "Not a sparrow shall fall" comes to mind. If he can go to that much detail on one fairly insignificant planet, why not on others as well? He made a rather large playground for us to romp in. Only makes sense that he made us some playmates somewhere.
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I find it hard to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. What I'm going to say now will cause a lot of disagreement with me - but I'm going to state MY opinion and I don't really care to argue about it:
The Bible does say that when God created us he said, "Let us create man in OUR own image".
So I believe that the form we are as humans is in the image of God.
But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.
We get to the image bit. :laugh:
I don't go much for form. We are created in our Father image. It's what is between the ears though, not physical shape. Our capacity for empathy and love.
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But, it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.
That's a pretty interesting idea to me because I'm inclined to believe what a lot of scientists are starting to believe, which is that we are probably not the only universe in existence, and that there may be many countless billions of other universes. I think the reason a lot of scientists are probably starting to believe that is they can't think of another logical explanation for the Big Bang and the creation of our universe. I know a lot of people would then come to the conclusion "Well, it must be God" yes, but the way I see it is even God appears to follow the physical rules He put in place for our universe. Finding out there were in fact other universes would only convince me even more that God exists.
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Perhaps God's real interest in mankind is in the species itself? Not the individual life.
While I certainly do believe in the power of prayers, I'm not naive enough to know for example, that should Adam and Trigger been citizens of Uganda and not the USA, things may not have turned out the way they did.
Why does a loving God allow little children to be butchered over their belief system? Or their 'bad luck' to be born to a minority clan?
Why does a priest say that a child's death could be part of God's larger plan for the family and parents? He would actually allow that carnage to teach a broader lesson?
Let me be clear that I do find comfort and peace in praying to a higher power. But sometimes I wonder if that's tantamount to taking deep breaths to stop a pounding heart...or quiet an adrenaline rush.
At the risk of being ridiculed, I do lean toward a POV that man is the result of intelligent design. But 'that' intelligence is also mortal.
'They' return every now and then...perhaps thousands of years in-between. If they don't like what they see...they wreck the place and start over...and keep on until WE get it right.
In that sense, living on earth is our own purgatory/limbo. Or hell.
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We get to the image bit. :laugh:
I don't go much for form. We are created in our Father image. It's what is between the ears though, not physical shape. Our capacity for empathy and love.
Very good point. It's our soul that makes us.
If we could communicate by mental telepathy - our form wouldn't matter much - and I believe it is possible to do so. There is so much we don't know, we're just infants on our journey to realization.
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That's a pretty interesting idea to me because I'm inclined to believe what a lot of scientists are starting to believe, which is that we are probably not the only universe in existence, and that there may be many countless billions of other universes. I think the reason a lot of scientists are probably starting to believe that is they can't think of another logical explanation for the Big Bang and the creation of our universe. I know a lot of people would then come to the conclusion "Well, it must be God" yes, but the way I see it is even God appears to follow the physical rules He put in place for our universe. Finding out there were in fact other universes would only convince me even more that God exists.
That goes back to that whole "God is order, evil is chaos" thing. God DOES follow the physical rules in place for our universe! He is the Master Scientist.
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.....He is the Master Scientist.
:beer:
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Perhaps God's real interest in mankind is in the species itself? Not the individual life.
While I certainly do believe in the power of prayers, I'm not naive enough to know for example, that should Adam and Trigger been citizens of Uganda and not the USA, things may not have turned out the way they did.
Why does a loving God allow little children to be butchered over their belief system? Or their 'bad luck' to be born to a minority clan?
Why does a priest say that a child's death could be part of God's larger plan for the family and parents? He would actually allow that carnage to teach a broader lesson?
Let me be clear that I do find comfort and peace in praying to a higher power. But sometimes I wonder if that's tantamount to taking deep breaths to stop a pounding heart...or quiet an adrenaline rush.
At the risk of being ridiculed, I do lean toward a POV that man is the result of intelligent design. But 'that' intelligence is also mortal.
'They' return every now and then...perhaps thousands of years in-between. If they don't like what they see...they wreck the place and start over...and keep on until WE get it right.
In that sense, living on earth is our own purgatory/limbo. Or hell.
When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they set in motion the next phase of Man's development. With knowledge, God was saying that he leaves us mostly on our own - we are responsible for our actions and life isn't always fair. If he interfered in every little thing - we wouldn't learn our lessons, would we?
Just like a parent, it's all done in love.
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When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they set in motion the next phase of Man's development. With knowledge, God was saying that he leaves us mostly on our own - we are responsible for our actions and life isn't always fair. If he interfered in every little thing - we wouldn't learn our lessons, would we?
Just like a parent, it's all done in love.
I like that take, Alice. Thank you.
It also helps explain, to me anyway, why children inherit the same propensities and/or addictions as their parents. Speaking about alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, reckless behavior. I am a firm believer that it's a form of "garbage in-garbage out".
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I find it hard to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. What I'm going to say now will cause a lot of disagreement with me - but I'm going to state MY opinion and I don't really care to argue about it:
The Bible does say that when God created us he said, "Let us create man in OUR own image".
So I believe that the form we are as humans is in the image of God.
it wouldn't shake my faith not one little bit to find out that our universe was just part of a larger galaxy of universes - maybe even each with their own God.
We being created in God's image could very simply mean we are designed in a way similar to God. For example, if I say I created a computer in my own image, does that mean the computer must look like me; or would it suffice to say that the computer has a short-term working memory like I do, a long term memory like I do, an electricity-based neural system, a cooling system and so forth? Broadly interpreted, "in his image" could simply mean that, like God, we consist of atomic matter.
I think the idea of God as looking like man is a sticking point with evangelicals, but I don't think modern science and the bible can be reconciled unless the bible is seen to be at least somewhat allegorical. Even as allegory, it is astounding how much the bible gets right. "Let there be light," for example, sounds an awful lot like the Big Bang. And although the bible gets the order of things a bit wrong, the idea of the universe being created in an orderly and predictable way over time is certainly consistent with our current understanding.
It could very well be that God reveals Himself within the context of man's capability to understand Him at any moment in history. Even with all of our sophisticated technology, we are today incapable of truly understanding infinity, omnipresence and omnipotence. We are programmed to seek all of these things. We want to live forever, be everywhere at once and have power over everything. Maybe we are created "in His image" in that sense.
These, and many more, are the questions the agnostic seeks answers to. Or at least this agnostic does. I have no doubt that when the rubber meets the road and I am confronted with my own fallibility, I will gravitate toward faith and embrace the Christian God. Within the context of Christianity, even within the context of my native Catholicism, there is plenty of room for differing interpretations. In the meantime, I think keeping my mind open to all possibilities gets me closer to the truth than blindly following one particular doctrine.
I know who I am, and if there is a God, I think I know what He expects of me, given how I have been programmed. In my case, he has made my life mostly an individual journey as opposed to a collective one. If and when I find him, I'll have to emulate Frank Sinatra and "Do it My Way..."
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I like that take, Alice. Thank you.
It also helps explain, to me anyway, why children inherent the same propensities and/or addictions as their parents. Speaking about alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, reckless behavior. I am a firm believer that it's a form of "garbage in-garbage out".
Yep. Sooner or later - one way or another - we all reap what we sow. If not today, next year or next generation. If we were taught early on to learn that, maybe a lot of us would have made some better decisions - I like to think I would have.
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Perhaps God's real interest in mankind is in the species itself? Not the individual life.
While I certainly do believe in the power of prayers, I'm not naive enough to know for example, that should Adam and Trigger been citizens of Uganda and not the USA, things may not have turned out the way they did.
Why does a loving God allow little children to be butchered over their belief system? Or their 'bad luck' to be born to a minority clan?
Why does a priest say that a child's death could be part of God's larger plan for the family and parents? He would actually allow that carnage to teach a broader lesson?
Let me be clear that I do find comfort and peace in praying to a higher power. But sometimes I wonder if that's tantamount to taking deep breaths to stop a pounding heart...or quiet an adrenaline rush.
At the risk of being ridiculed, I do lean toward a POV that man is the result of intelligent design. But 'that' intelligence is also mortal.
'They' return every now and then...perhaps thousands of years in-between. If they don't like what they see...they wreck the place and start over...and keep on until WE get it right.
In that sense, living on earth is our own purgatory/limbo. Or hell.
My friend - one massive can of worms, you opened there!
You know how protective we are of children. Someone threatened your Adam, he'd stop breathing in a second, and it wouldn't bother you in the slightest. Just remember - I'm probably a lot faster. :laugh:
You know how many suffering kids I have seen. The only reasonable explanation I got was from Sister T - she said someone has to get the shit end of the stick.
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We being created in God's image could very simply mean we are designed in a way similar to God. For example, if I say I created a computer in my own image, does that mean the computer must look like me; or would it suffice to say that the computer has a short-term working memory like I do, a long term memory like I do, an electricity-based neural system, a cooling system and so forth? Broadly interpreted, "in his image" could simply mean that, like God, we consist of atomic matter.
I think the idea of God as looking like man is a sticking point with evangelicals, but I don't think modern science and the bible can be reconciled unless the bible is seen to be at least somewhat allegorical. Even as allegory, it is astounding how much the bible gets right. "Let there be light," for example, sounds an awful lot like the Big Bang. And although the bible gets the order of things a bit wrong, the idea of the universe being created in an orderly and predictable way over time is certainly consistent with our current understanding.
It could very well be that God reveals Himself within the context of man's capability to understand Him at any moment in history. Even with all of our sophisticated technology, we are today incapable of truly understanding infinity, omnipresence and omnipotence. We are programmed to seek all of these things. We want to live forever, be everywhere at once and have power over everything. Maybe we are created "in His image" in that sense.
These, and many more, are the questions the agnostic seeks answers to. Or at least this agnostic does. I have no doubt that when the rubber meets the road and I am confronted with my own fallibility, I will gravitate toward faith and embrace the Christian God. In the meantime, I think keeping my mind open to all possibilities gets me closer to the truth than blindly following one particular doctrine.
I know who I am, and if there is a God, I think I know what He expects of me, given how I have been programmed. In my case, he has made my life mostly an individual journey as opposed to a collective one. If and when I find him, I'll have to emulate Frank Sinatra and "Do it My Way..."
"Broadly interpreted, "in his image" could simply mean that, like God, we consist of atomic matter."
Atomic matter is God's modeling clay. So, yes.
If you created a computer that thinks like you, you would say, "I created a computer that thinks like me."
If you created a computer that looked like you, you would say, "I created a computer that is my image."
"It could very well be that God reveals Himself within the context of man's capability to understand Him at any moment in history."
Just like with an infant, we have to learn to eat baby food first.
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My friend - one massive can of worms, you opened there!
You know how protective we are of children. Someone threatened your Adam, he'd stop breathing in a second, and it wouldn't bother you in the slightest. Just remember - I'm probably a lot faster. :laugh:
You know how many suffering kids I have seen. The only reasonable explanation I got was from Sister T - she said someone has to get the shit end of the stick.
What does God (if He exists) seek? I think the best answer we are able to come up with given our limited and fallible capabilities is: perfection.
Is an experiment in perfection -- one that relies on rational, free-thinking, self-absorbed beings to find it as opposed to it being given to them from on high -- likely to be successful without survival of the fittest?
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What does God (if He exists) seek? I think the best answer we are able to come up with given our limited and fallible capabilities is: perfection.
Is an experiment in perfection -- one that relies on rational, free-thinking, self-absorbed beings to find it as opposed to it being given to them from on high -- likely to be successful without survival of the fittest?
You just hit it out of the park Victor!
If you were amassing an army or something like that, you would take only the best.
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"Broadly interpreted, "in his image" could simply mean that, like God, we consist of atomic matter."
If you created a computer that thinks like you, you would say, "I created a computer that thinks like me."
"It could very well be that God reveals Himself within the context of man's capability to understand Him at any moment in history."
Just like with an infant, we have to learn to eat baby food first.
Yes, but in the example I gave the computer does more than think like me. It also has a neural system like me and a cooling system like me. So to say "it thinks like me" would be less accurate than to simply say I created it in my image. The latter encompasses a multitude of traits the computer has that are like mine.
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Yes, but in the example I gave the computer does more than think like me. It also has a neural system like me and a cooling system like me. So to say "it thinks like me" would be less accurate than to simply say I created it in my image. The latter encompasses a multitude of traits the computer has that are like mine.
That's certainly a possibility. For me, I like the image of God in a shimmering robe with a long white beard, it is comforting to me in the way that he looks like me.
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That's certainly a possibility. For me, I like the image of God in a shimmering robe with a long white beard, it is comforting to me in the way that he looks like me.
I have no question that the man in the white beard and robe you find so comforting is the exact reason that particular phraseology was used. What makes the Bible such an endearing -- and enduring -- book is its capability to accommodate so many different interpretations.
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I have no question that the man in the white beard and robe you find so comforting is the exact reason that particular phraseology was used. What makes the Bible such an endearing -- and enduring -- book is its capability to accommodate so many different interpretations.
Yes, I agree. The genius of the Bible is that the same verse that can be taken and chewed on meaningfully like baby food to an infant - that same verse can be interpreted on a much more advanced level of thinking and be just as meaningful to someone who is a life-long scholar of the subject. There is always something more that can be interpreted.
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One aspect of God creating human beings in His own image is that we - like Him - are communicative beings. We need relationships. God wants us to have a relationship and be in communion with Him.
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Our universe is born, it expands and becomes more complex, and then it begins to create consciousness. Eventually it grows old and dies, but it passes on its remains to be redistributed back into the mix. Sounds familiar to me.
There are plenty of Christians who think this way. It's not necessary to call oneself an agnostic to have this point of view. And yet, I call myself an agnostic, mostly because I am not certain as to the existence of a creator or an all-encompassing, omnipresent intelligent force. Simplistic definitions such as "God is Love' bore the hell out of me. They are meant to appease the doubtful, but they shed no light on the mystery. Of course God is Love. By the definition I am familiar with, God is Love... and everything else. So to pick out one thing and say God is this or God is that is true as far as it goes, but not very enlightening.
I think it is possible to practice Christianity within the framework of most Christian religions and not even believe that God has to be intelligent. God can simply represent nature; an omnipresent, all-encompassing force that makes laws that are irrefutable and that none of us can control. Who would deny that nature exists?
This is why I cannot call myself an atheist. In my mind, atheists deny nature itself. That just doesn't make any sense. Most atheists I know deny nature because they are angry at nature, and they are angry at nature because they are angry at themselves.
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Thank you all for a fascinating thread.
It's comforting (here I go again) to read the comments on this topic from people who I've admired on the forum over all these years.
Feel lucky and blessed.
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My friend - one massive can of worms, you opened there!
You know how protective we are of children. Someone threatened your Adam, he'd stop breathing in a second, and it wouldn't bother you in the slightest. Just remember - I'm probably a lot faster. :laugh:
You know how many suffering kids I have seen. The only reasonable explanation I got was from Sister T - she said someone has to get the shit end of the stick.
EC...et al. I am truly sorry if I gave that impression. It's just that I'm still haunted by the gore and horrific deeds that ISIS has wrought on innocent people and children. I cannot and will not ever reconcile a God that allows that to happen. Nor, can I condone a country like ours to let it go unanswered.
If it were President Bush in the White House, those bastards would already be room temperature.
How can God permit such carnage to individuals. Saying God gave us free will to sin and delve into depravity against others doesn't work for me.
So I choose to believe the Bible means "man" in a collective sense.
Looking back, wish I'd stayed off this thread.
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One of the things that never seemed to make sense to me was God condemning people to eternal suffering in Hell for not accepting His teachings.
God does not condemn anyone to anything. We do that, or not, to ourselves! In fact that is the sole reason we are here on this earth in the flesh!
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EC...et al. I am truly sorry if I gave that impression. It's just that I'm still haunted by the gore and horrific deeds that ISIS has wrought on innocent people and children. I cannot and will not ever reconcile a God that allows that to happen. Nor, can I condone a country like ours to let it go unanswered.
If it were President Bush in the White House, those bastards would already be room temperature.
How can God permit such carnage to individuals. Saying God gave us free will to sin and delve into depravity against others doesn't work for me.
So I choose to believe the Bible means "man" in a collective sense.
Looking back, wish I'd stayed off this thread.
Nah - you raise good points. God neither permits nor denies anything. He gave us free will for a reason. In retrospect it was a bit of a dumb idea, but hey - He knows what He's doing (I hope!).
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The best word (or set of values) that I can use to define my ever-shifting set of beliefs on religion is "pantheism".
God is the Universe, and the Universe is God. Everything is then part of that immanent being we call God, and all realities and being and worlds and everything are extensions and modes of that being.
I believe that man created God (the God of the Bible) based on the only image that our minds could embrace at the time. To believe that the Creator looked anything but exactly like us would make us, His creation, less than worthy of Him.
I don't hold the view of a micromanaging God, but rather one through which things can happen, so as the Universe is created events unfold that lead to both creation and destruction. We are created and we in turn create in accordance to the gift of free will. Creation can in fact be destruction, and that is what we call "evil".
The Biblical teachings and the words of Jesus of Nazareth hold up to light even outside the realm of religiosity. To live life as a good human being and in accordance to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth is in and of itself the reward.
I pray as a Catholic, basically because those are the religious values instilled in me, but I don't so much pray to ask for anything, but rather because giving voice to those things that I wish to pray about brings me solace and comfort.
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The best word (or set of values) that I can use to define my ever-shifting set of beliefs on religion is "pantheism".
God is the Universe, and the Universe is God. Everything is then part of that immanent being we call God, and all realities and being and worlds and everything are extensions and modes of that being.
I believe that man created God (the God of the Bible) based on the only image that our minds could embrace at the time. To believe that the Creator looked anything but exactly like us would make us, His creation, less than worthy of Him.
I don't hold the view of a micromanaging God, but rather one through which things can happen, so as the Universe is created events unfold that lead to both creation and destruction. We are created and we in turn create in accordance to the gift of free will. Creation can in fact be destruction, and that is what we call "evil".
The Biblical teachings and the words of Jesus of Nazareth hold up to light even outside the realm of religiosity. To live life as a good human being and in accordance to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth is in and of itself the reward.
I pray as a Catholic, basically because those are the religious values instilled in me, but I don't so much pray to ask for anything, but rather because giving voice to those things that I wish to pray about brings me solace and comfort.
Nice, Luis. I agree with you on prayer. I've ceased praying to God like he is Santa Claus and I have a wish list. I pray for God to give me strength to deal with challenges that come my way - and it's like talking to a therapist, it does help to talk things out with God. :beer:
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I pray as a Catholic, basically because those are the religious values instilled in me, but I don't so much pray to ask for anything, but rather because giving voice to those things that I wish to pray about brings me solace and comfort.
That is excellent, Luis. Essentially what I was trying to express.
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I have two prayers.
One where I give thanks - that happens daily, at sunrise if at all possible.
The other is for work. Basically boils down to "You coming, or what?" The Lord and I have an odd relationship. :laugh:
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I have two prayers.
One where I give thanks - that happens daily, at sunrise if at all possible.
The other is for work. Basically boils down to "You coming, or what?" The Lord and I have an odd relationship. :laugh:
Actually laughed out loud reading that, EC.
Of course, that was when I realized your expertise entailed a different type of 'healing'. :beer:
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He must love me for some reason. I'm still breathing. :tongue2:
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He must love me for some reason. I'm still breathing. :tongue2:
Knock wood, my friend. :laugh: You're one of His Archangels.
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I have two prayers.
One where I give thanks - that happens daily, at sunrise if at all possible.
The other is for work. Basically boils down to "You coming, or what?" The Lord and I have an odd relationship. :laugh:
I too, give thanks in my first prayer of the day. At bedtime, I give my "if I should die before I wake" type of prayer where I reconcile things that occurred during the day and clear the slate for a new day tomorrow.
I do another type of prayer when there is an earnest and pressing reason to immerse myself in an intensive power-type prayer, but I don't do those every day.
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He must love me for some reason. I'm still breathing. :tongue2:
He's keeping you around for something. :beer:
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Knock wood, my friend. :laugh: You're one of His Archangels.
Yes - what you said! :amen:
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He gave us an archangel of our own.
Alice knows the prayer - complete with the alteration. :laugh:
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He gave us an archangel of our own.
Alice knows the prayer - complete with the alteration. :laugh:
Yes I do, and it really works too! :laugh:
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Yes I do, and it really works too! :laugh:
Some times you need a "Hey, you actually paying attention here?"
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Some times you need a "Hey, you actually paying attention here?"
Yes you do. :seeya:
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I never met an agnostic that hasn’t spent some time in church. Some spent a lot of time. If the church did not give you an understanding who God really is, and if you did not feel drawn towards him but instead repulsed, and you did not have a sense of belonging, a sense of family, or you felt condemned as soon as you walked through the door, then let me be the first to apologize for that church. That spiritually dead church. I would highly recommend you keep looking. Find another church, and another, and another if you need too until you find a church home. God knows you are searching. We tried several in the area we moved, until we found the one that we feel was the perfect church for us. Where we gather every weekend for a time of worship and practical Bible teaching in gatherings to be authentic, warm and engaging, and fun. If you are not a Christ follower but just kicking the tires of Christianity which it seems you are doing by asking your question, then I challenge you to keep searching, like we did. And don't be afraid of other denominations, or even non-denominations.
In your search remember this - When people see us Christians, they see Jesus. For better or worse. And because of some bad churches, it’s too often worse. Are they seeing a picture of grace and love? Or are they seeing condemnation? A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints
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I never met an agnostic that hasn’t spent some time in church. Some spent a lot of time. If the church did not give you an understanding who God really is, and if you did not feel drawn towards him but instead repulsed, and you did not have a sense of belonging, a sense of family, or you felt condemned as soon as you walked through the door, then let me be the first to apologize for that church. That spiritually dead church. I would highly recommend you keep looking. Find another church, and another, and another if you need too until you find a church home. God knows you are searching. We tried several in the area we moved, until we found the one that we feel was the perfect church for us. Where we gather every weekend for a time of worship and practical Bible teaching in gatherings to be authentic, warm and engaging, and fun. If you are not a Christ follower but just kicking the tires of Christianity which it seems you are doing by asking your question, then I challenge you to keep searching, like we did. And don't be afraid of other denominations, or even non-denominations.
In your search remember this - When people see us Christians, they see Jesus. For better or worse. And because of some bad churches, it’s too often worse. Are they seeing a picture of grace and love? Or are they seeing condemnation? A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints
Good answer Navy. :amen:
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What does God (if He exists) seek? I think the best answer we are able to come up with given our limited and fallible capabilities is: perfection.
I'm not a theologian, but I will give you my two cents. I think what He seeks is not perfection in us, but something a lot simpler, and something we ALL seek - someone who loves us. Not because they have to, not because there is a reward at the end, or a threat of punishment if they don't, [that's Islam], but a genuine love from a creation He made His image, with the freedom of choice. And then to have a genuine relationship and fellowship with each other. That's what He seeks. And when man's sins, pride and self reliance got in the way of that relationship, He reached out in love to lift us from darkness into light by trading his righteousness for shame and dying for you and me in a painful death that we can only imagine. And despite all my pride and foolishness and sin, his Grace is sufficient and as the verse says, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow".
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A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints
I do not see that. Church is to praise the Lord Jesus Christ and to keep the Sabbath Day holy.I am excited to go to church every Sunday.We believe churches are dedicated public places of worship where Mormons and visitors can meet to pray, study scripture, partake of the sacrament, and continue to learn their responsibilities as children of God. The temple is literally, as it has been throughout history, the "house of the Lord" (see 1 Kings 6:1, 37).
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I do not see that. Church is to praise the Lord Jesus Christ and to keep the Sabbath Day holy.I am excited to go to church every Sunday.We believe churches are dedicated public places of worship where Mormons and visitors can meet to pray, study scripture, partake of the sacrament, and continue to learn their responsibilities as children of God. The temple is literally, as it has been throughout history, the "house of the Lord" (see 1 Kings 6:1, 37).
I respect what you believe, but what I believe is that the church you are talking about be it Mormon, Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, or something else is why so many non-Christ followers who are just "kicking the tires of Christianity" looking for an answer, looking for hope, too often don't find it there. They see people dressed in their Sunday best, partaking in sacraments they don't really understand, singing hymns written in the 1600s. Its scary to a new comer, I've been there. And that is why I was drawn towards a non-denominational church, where we believe the church is not a building or a program. The church is a community of Christ followers who serve and demonstrate the love of God to this hurting world -an ACTS 13 church.
Our church did a man-on-the- street survey video taping each response, asking people on the streets of Seattle, "What do you think of when I say the word "Christians"? The answers that came back was frightening.
• Judgmental
• In your face
• Hypocrites
• Crazy
• They think they are better than everyone else
• They just want your money
• Boring
• They don't know how to have fun
• I hate them
We are to be Jesus to the World. When they see us, they should see him. And if what they see is listed above-something is wrong.
The heart of our church is spiritual transformation and we exists to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. and reaching out to those lost people who have the above impressions of us - and change it. One example of this is when we hold a Free Oil Change for single moms of the community at our church, where single moms can pull up have their oil changed, let their kids go play on the inflatables and games we have set up, while they relax and get pampered in our lounge and get served coffee and treats by Christian women, eager to talk to them.
Those mothers come back. Those mothers don't see the boring, highly sacramental church there parents use to drag them to. Those mothers have had those stereotypes erased forever. House of God? Absolutely. We still feel our Church is the House of God, and that he is in our presence.
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I love the oil change idea Navy - that is such an inspirational way to minister to the needs of people with needs. Really like that!
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I respect what you believe, but what I believe is that the church you are talking about be it Mormon, Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, or something else is why so many non-Christ followers who are just "kicking the tires of Christianity" looking for an answer, looking for hope, too often don't find it there. They see people dressed in their Sunday best, partaking in sacraments they don't really understand, singing hymns written in the 1600s. Its scary to a new comer, I've been there. And that is why I was drawn towards a non-denominational church, where we believe the church is not a building or a program. The church is a community of Christ followers who serve and demonstrate the love of God to this hurting world -an ACTS 13 church.
Our church did a man-on-the- street survey video taping each response, asking people on the streets of Seattle, "What do you think of when I say the word "Christians"? The answers that came back was frightening.
• Judgmental
• In your face
• Hypocrites
• Crazy
• They think they are better than everyone else
• They just want your money
• Boring
• They don't know how to have fun
• I hate them
We are to be Jesus to the World. When they see us, they should see him. And if what they see is listed above-something is wrong.
The heart of our church is spiritual transformation and we exists to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. and reaching out to those lost people who have the above impressions of us - and change it. One example of this is when we hold a Free Oil Change for single moms of the community at our church, where single moms can pull up have their oil changed, let their kids go play on the inflatables and games we have set up, while they relax and get pampered in our lounge and get served coffee and treats by Christian women, eager to talk to them.
Those mothers come back. Those mothers don't see the boring, highly sacramental church there parents use to drag them to. Those mothers have had those stereotypes erased forever. House of God? Absolutely. We still feel our Church is the House of God, and that he is in our presence.
That's one exceptional post, there, Navy! Very inspirational.
Would be proud to share a foxhole with you any day.....when the 'flag' goes up! :patriot:
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I love the oil change idea Navy - that is such an inspirational way to minister to the needs of people with needs. Really like that!
We like it to.
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l545/Baseballdad2/2da2d3ab-f270-475b-b67d-ec6c2fe61e41.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/Baseballdad2/media/2da2d3ab-f270-475b-b67d-ec6c2fe61e41.jpg.html)
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l545/Baseballdad2/5221f935-f2c0-4e5e-b509-85bcaaf275d3.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/Baseballdad2/media/5221f935-f2c0-4e5e-b509-85bcaaf275d3.jpg.html)
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l545/Baseballdad2/1374806_10151997693533828_67132913_n1.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/Baseballdad2/media/1374806_10151997693533828_67132913_n1.jpg.html)
(http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l545/Baseballdad2/1a086420-7411-4e9b-92b4-cd13c6f10dd7.jpg) (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/Baseballdad2/media/1a086420-7411-4e9b-92b4-cd13c6f10dd7.jpg.html)
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I respect what you believe, but what I believe is that the church you are talking about be it Mormon, Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, or something else is why so many non-Christ followers who are just "kicking the tires of Christianity" looking for an answer, looking for hope, too often don't find it there. They see people dressed in their Sunday best, partaking in sacraments they don't really understand, singing hymns written in the 1600s. Its scary to a new comer, I've been there. And that is why I was drawn towards a non-denominational church, where we believe the church is not a building or a program. The church is a community of Christ followers who serve and demonstrate the love of God to this hurting world -an ACTS 13 church.
Our church did a man-on-the- street survey video taping each response, asking people on the streets of Seattle, "What do you think of when I say the word "Christians"? The answers that came back was frightening.
• Judgmental
• In your face
• Hypocrites
• Crazy
• They think they are better than everyone else
• They just want your money
• Boring
• They don't know how to have fun
• I hate them
We are to be Jesus to the World. When they see us, they should see him. And if what they see is listed above-something is wrong.
The heart of our church is spiritual transformation and we exists to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. and reaching out to those lost people who have the above impressions of us - and change it. One example of this is when we hold a Free Oil Change for single moms of the community at our church, where single moms can pull up have their oil changed, let their kids go play on the inflatables and games we have set up, while they relax and get pampered in our lounge and get served coffee and treats by Christian women, eager to talk to them.
Those mothers come back. Those mothers don't see the boring, highly sacramental church there parents use to drag them to. Those mothers have had those stereotypes erased forever. House of God? Absolutely. We still feel our Church is the House of God, and that he is in our presence.
I think you are both looking the same thing, from different perspectives. Problem with people - they are not sheep. They are lambs. We're told that. Little children to our Father, and the flock to our Savior and Shepherd. I know it's Catholic imagery, mostly, but Our Lord is not waving a crook around to smite his own sheep, it's to protect them from the wolves with the heavy end, and gently pull them to safety with the crook end, not yank their heads off! Navy is, from my reading, worried that Christianity - all branches of it - has been using the crook the wrong way around in a lot of places.
Trigger is pointing out that the paramount command is to Worship our Shepherd together, joyously and in harmony.
A fair summation?
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What I don't want to do is be judgmental of other denominations. There are churches in all denominations that understand too well those perceptions listed above people have of Christians, and are working hard to change it. If I was in a church that did not, I'd be looking someplace else.
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Trigger is pointing out that the paramount command is to Worship our Shepherd together, joyously and in harmony.
A fair summation?
:amen:
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Our church did a man-on-the- street survey video taping each response, asking people on the streets of Seattle, "What do you think of when I say the word "Christians"? The answers that came back was frightening.
John 17:14 - "I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."
We are to be Jesus to the World. When they see us, they should see him. And if what they see is listed above-something is wrong.
No, that's good. The world is condemned by the Christian lifestyle and is reacting adversely to that condemnation.
John 15:18 - "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
The early church was hated for the same reason. If the world loves you, then you should start to worry.
You can reach out to single-moms but, in my experience, they are not discipled after they are brought in and they continue in their destructive lifestyle. This tends to spread to the young-people and the baby-Christians in the church and that is a real problem. Everybody is afraid they will be called 'judgmental' if they speak out against sin and the whole body is weakened.
What you end up with is a carnal 'church' that celebrates the start of football season by having everybody wear their favorite team's jersey to Sunday worship. Tattoos are celebrated with the Youth Pastor's wife leading the Children's Church leader in getting new ones. Anybody that objects is censored and the party goes on. This happened recently in my church.
I'd rather be hated by the world than be hated by God...
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Being a single mom is a destructive lifestyle? Talk about being judgmental. Some of these single moms are widows, at least one lost her husband in Afghanistan. Others have split from their abusive husbands, and those who have had children out of wedlock are reaching out for help. What church do you think they would want to go to? One that calls there lifestyle destructive, or one that opens their arms to them and says welcome ? And, if they come to church they are getting the same discipleship we all are. And it’s great discipleship even if we do where our Seahawk Jerseys to church. It’s better than sitting at home because there is football on Sunday. I’d rather have a pre-game fellowship with other Christians, including at least one Seahawk, Brandon Mebane who goes to our church, who dedicated their baby this Sunday.
When we drove out of the Church Parking lot after service, my 12-year old son said, “Dad, I love this church”…….That’s enough proof for me that we are in the right place.
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Being a single mom is a destructive lifestyle? Talk about being judgmental. Some of these single moms are widows, at least one lost her husband in Afghanistan. Others have split from their abusive husbands, and those who have had children out of wedlock are reaching out for help. What church do you think they would want to go to? One that calls there lifestyle destructive, or one that opens their arms to them and says welcome ? And, if they come to church they are getting the same discipleship we all are. And it’s great discipleship even if we do where our Seahawk Jerseys to church. It’s better than sitting at home because there if football on Sunday. I’d rather have a pre-game fellowship with other Christians, including at least one Seahawk, Brandon Mebane who goes to our church, who dedicated their baby this Sunday. When we drove out of the Church Parking lot after service, my 12-year old son said, “Dad, I love this church”…….That’s enough proof for me that we are in the right place.
:thumbsup:
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John 15:18 - "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
I'd rather be hated by the world than be hated by God...
John wasn’t saying you measure your ministries success, by how much you are hated. If so, then the Westboro church is doing pretty good in God’s eyes, and we should be more like them.
The old Christian song, with the verse, “They will know we are Christians by our love” speaks volumes.
And John also wrote on that – John 13 34-35; A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
“But, but he was talking about loving Christians…..not sinners”…... Do I have to remind you of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritans were despised by the Jews for being unclean and ungodly. Or the girl being stoned for sin she was guilty of?
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John wasn’t saying you measure your ministries success, by how much you are hated. If so, then the Westboro church is doing pretty good in God’s eyes, and we should be more like them.
That's why Christians are being forced to participate in 'gay' marriages against their will. Because tolerance now means forcing people who disagree with you to participate in your favorite perversion. We'll just have to see what God says on the judgement day but those condoning 'gay' marriage, priests, lifestyle and adoptive parents may find themselves on the wrong side of God.
The old Christian song, with the verse, “They will know we are Christians by our love” speaks volumes.
And John also wrote on that – John 13 34-35; A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
“But, but he was talking about loving Christians…..not sinners”…... Do I have to remind you of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritans were despised by the Jews for being unclean and ungodly. Or the girl being stoned for sin she was guilty of?
The Samaritans were bluntly told, " You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." and the woman caught in adultery was told, “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
That isn't happening in 'church' these days because it's supposedly 'hateful' and 'unloving'...
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We'll just have to see what God says on the judgement day but those condoning 'gay' marriage, priests, lifestyle and adoptive parents may find themselves on the wrong side of God.
I doubt it.
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I doubt it.
Attaboy Dex...
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I doubt it.
Why? If you really want to know what God has to say, why not just read the Bible and find out?
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GourmetDan - You misunderstand me. The church should talk about sin, and God’s judgment, Hell, repentance, and redemption. Asking them not to would be like asking a Doctor not to talk about sickness. A church that doesn’t, goes down the path of accepting sin, and conforming to the World’s standards not God’s. We’ve seen that over and over in some of our nations well established denominations. We’ve seen that in scripture in the letters John wrote to the churches. I get that. But when the church talks about sin, it should do so with a broken heart, and with the compassion shown by Jesus to the Samaritan woman, the adulteress, the thief who died next to him. With complete understanding of the struggle these people are going through and the deep pit they are in. The same struggles we had, for we are all sinners and fall short. When we become so self-righteous is when we forget that. ….. When we stop remembering we are sinners saved by grace, we stop loving people who are sinners needing grace.
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He must love me for some reason. I'm still breathing. :tongue2:
that or you're a favored cats-paw!
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What you end up with is a carnal 'church' that celebrates the start of football season by having everybody wear their favorite team's jersey to Sunday worship. Tattoos are celebrated with the Youth Pastor's wife leading the Children's Church leader in getting new ones. Anybody that objects is censored and the party goes on. This happened recently in my church.
All those things are not acceptable in our Church. Tattoos are not acceptable. Those who disregard this counsel show a lack of respect for themselves and for God. Blue jeans are not acceptable. Shorts are not acceptable. Sweatshirts and pants are not acceptable except for permission, such as a surgery. They would not even get in the front door if these were allowed. I would quickly point this out to people in the Quorum.It must be business attire. I dress in the traditional black and white suit.They must be at their Sunday best.Some people are clean shaved and others are not. I am clean shaven because I want to continue the policy of professionalism.
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All those things are not acceptable in our Church. Tattoos are not acceptable. Those who disregard this counsel show a lack of respect for themselves and for God. Blue jeans are not acceptable. Shorts are not acceptable. Sweatshirts and pants are not acceptable except for permission, such as a surgery. They would not even get in the front door if these were allowed. I would quickly point this out to people in the Quorum.It must be business attire. I dress in the traditional black and white suit.They must be at their Sunday best.Some people are clean shaved and others are not. I am clean shaven because I want to continue the policy of professionalism.
I trust all LDS temples are not as strict as yours. If they are, then I guess the next time they knock on my door, rather than having a friendly chat on the porch, I can just say, "sorry I'm not welcome in your church, and neither is the Marine up the street with the tattoo". Seriously I have a few Mormon friends, and I never heard from any of them any prejudice against people that don't always dress up for church.
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I trust all LDS temples are not as strict as yours. If they are, then I guess the next time they knock on my door, rather than having a friendly chat on the porch, I can just say, "sorry I'm not welcome in your church, and neither is the Marine up the street with the tattoo". Seriously I have a few Mormon friends, and I never heard from any of them any prejudice against people that don't always dress up for church.
Apparently God is worried about details like what you look like when you go to worship him.
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I trust all LDS temples are not as strict as yours. If they are, then I guess the next time they knock on my door, rather than having a friendly chat on the porch, I can just say, "sorry I'm not welcome in your church, and neither is the Marine up the street with the tattoo". Seriously I have a few Mormon friends, and I never heard from any of them any prejudice against people that don't always dress up for church.
It says so in the Bible. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17). All of the LDS churches in my area have the same rules of conduct when it comes what you wear.
https://www.lds.org/topics/tattooing?lang=eng
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Dress and grooming
Members attending Sunday services will most likely be wearing their “Sunday best,” which may include suits, sport coats, and ties for the men and modest dresses or skirts for the women. Children also typically dress up for Sunday.
Members of the Church celebrate Christmas and Easter, regarding these two events as the most spiritually significant days in history because of the birth, suffering, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Church members also celebrate the regional and national holidays of the countries where they live. Church members also celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, and similar events
http://www.mormon.org/faq/mormon-beliefs
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OK, I'll just leave it at that. No point carrying this debate on page after page.
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OK, I'll just leave it at that. No point carrying this debate on page after page.
You've done a magnificent job of it, though, so you can take some satisfaction in that!
:thumbsup:
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Apparently God is worried about details like what you look like when you go to worship him.
It's more a mark of respect, I think. You get dressed nicely if you go to a friend's home for a dinner party, right? Or for a wedding or a funeral. I've gone to Mass in torn and stained jeans and an ancient T-shirt if I am getting back from work too late to get changed, because attending Mass is more important than looking nice, in my book. Still, it's nice to look nice for church.
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It's more a mark of respect, I think. You get dressed nicely if you go to a friend's home for a dinner party, right? Or for a wedding or a funeral. I've gone to Mass in torn and stained jeans and an ancient T-shirt if I am getting back from work too late to get changed, because attending Mass is more important than looking nice, in my book. Still, it's nice to look nice for church.
:amen:
Im too strict. Maybe I should ease up on the throttle a little bit.
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It's more a mark of respect, I think. You get dressed nicely if you go to a friend's home for a dinner party, right? Or for a wedding or a funeral. I've gone to Mass in torn and stained jeans and an ancient T-shirt if I am getting back from work too late to get changed, because attending Mass is more important than looking nice, in my book. Still, it's nice to look nice for church.
When people wear their "Sunday best", they behave better. More reverent, etc.. Same thinking is used today when debating whether children in school should be wearing uniforms vs. denim blue jeans
Being taught by Franciscan and Jesuits, we had to wear dress shoes, sport coats, white shirts with neck ties. LOL! It was an all boys school.
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:amen:
Im too strict. Maybe I should ease up on the throttle a little bit.
Passion is a good thing. Heck of a good debate though.
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When people where their "Sunday best", they behave better. More reverent, etc.. Same thinking is used today when debating whether children in school should be wearing uniforms vs. denim blue jeans
Being taught by Franciscan and Jesuits, we had to wear dress shoes, sport coats, white shirts with neck ties. LOL! It was an all boys school.
True. Just compare the behavior of kids in McDonalds and the same kids in a proper sit down restaurant, for example. Clothes do make a difference.
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Apparently God is worried about details like what you look like when you go to worship him.
Not necessarily. I believe Trigger is saying his church has certain expectations regarding dress. It's not the case with most Christian denominations.
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GourmetDan - You misunderstand me. The church should talk about sin, and God’s judgment, Hell, repentance, and redemption. Asking them not to would be like asking a Doctor not to talk about sickness. A church that doesn’t, goes down the path of accepting sin, and conforming to the World’s standards not God’s. We’ve seen that over and over in some of our nations well established denominations. We’ve seen that in scripture in the letters John wrote to the churches. I get that. But when the church talks about sin, it should do so with a broken heart, and with the compassion shown by Jesus to the Samaritan woman, the adulteress, the thief who died next to him. With complete understanding of the struggle these people are going through and the deep pit they are in. The same struggles we had, for we are all sinners and fall short. When we become so self-righteous is when we forget that. ….. When we stop remembering we are sinners saved by grace, we stop loving people who are sinners needing grace.
And you misunderstand me. I quoted Christ's words to both the Samaritans and the woman. That was 'the compassion shown by Jesus'.
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I’m not going to argue about the restrictions another church or denomination has regarding dress or bodily appearance. If that’s fine with them then I’m cool with that. But I’ve grown up in a church where the alter call song was most often “Just as I am” – a song popularized at Billy Gram’s Crusades. Just as I am has a real meaning that I can’t see how anyone can miss. He doesn’t care about religious trappings, the style of songs we worship him with, if we have a tie on or not, what kind of sins we have committed in our past, or if we have a butterfly tattooed on our shoulder.
When I attend church I don’t wear jeans, opting instead for business casual – but I will not look down on someone attending church in a more casual state of dress, or if I spot a diamond stud in a teenage girls nose or tattoo. I’m not there to judge the other Christ Followers, I’m there to fellowship with them, and worship with them.
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I’m not going to argue about the restrictions another church or denomination has regarding dress or bodily appearance. If that’s fine with them then I’m cool with that. But I’ve grown up in a church where the alter call song was most often “Just as I am” – a song popularized at Billy Gram’s Crusades. Just as I am has a real meaning that I can’t see how anyone can miss. He doesn’t care about religious trappings, the style of songs we worship him with, if we have a tie on or not, what kind of sins we have committed in our past, or if we have a butterfly tattooed on our shoulder.
When I attend church I don’t wear jeans, opting instead for business casual – but I will not look down on someone attending church in a more casual state of dress, or if I spot a diamond stud in a teenage girls nose or tattoo. I’m not there to judge the other Christ Followers, I’m there to fellowship with them, and worship with them.
I never said any of that. It's about not discipling people after they come in because we have been taught that is 'judging them'. As a result, most anything goes and everybody remains a babe. Jesus didn't reject anyone but he demanded that they 'go and sin no more'.
1 Corinthians 5:11 - "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
Such people were either not converted or not discipled...
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That wasn't a response to any of your post - just a general statement why I'm perfectly at ease with my style of church.
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That wasn't a response to any of your post - just a general statement why I'm perfectly at ease with my style of church.
Sorry, we were the only ones still active in the thread and I thought you were responding to my last post...
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1. Yes, you do intend to insult, so let's just get that out of the way. You're a chili cheese dog with onions fart.
2. Umm, that about covers it.